Former Italian President says 911 inside job

[jezcoe]

Just when you think you are getting through to people. Unfortunately now truthers will point and say " Hey look he knows!"

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2007/12/former-president-of-italy-911-was.html

I do not know much about Italian politics. But this guy seems like a rather colorful politco

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Cossiga

[Brainster]

Just when you think you are getting through to people. Unfortunately now truthers will point and say " Hey look he knows!"

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2007/12/former-president-of-italy-911-was.html

I do not know much about Italian politics. But this guy seems like a rather colorful politco

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Cossiga

I asked an Italian friend about this, and his response was as follows:

Cossiga was the Italian President, but he is known for his particular sense of humor: we all think this is his way to poke fun at CT.

[T.A.M.]

What is he 112 years old? I suspect he is either delusional, senile, or both. As well, he could just be a jew hater.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

well we will see. I am sure, regardless, the truthers will use this.

I would stake money, that even if this man comes out and admits it was simply a sarcastic mockery of the truthers, that we will see this quote appear over and over in the truther rhetoric.

TAM:)

[SpitfireIX]

Just when you think you are getting through to people. Unfortunately now truthers will point and say " Hey look he knows!"

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2007/12/former-president-of-italy-911-was.html

I do not know much about Italian politics. But this guy seems like a rather colorful politco

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Cossiga


"George Washington" says that the "translation" was done using Babelfish. I'd refrain from drawing any conclusions (other than that the moonbats will claim that the article says what they wish it said, regardless of what it actually says, of course) until a more accurate translation is available. However, I don't even know enough Italian to be dangerous, so I can't tell.

[16.5]

WOW! Compare the Twoofers translation in the article:

"[Bin Laden supposedly confessed] to the Qaeda September [attack] to the two towers in New York [claiming to be] the author of the attack of the 11, while all the [intelligence services] of America and Europe ... now know well that the disastrous attack has been planned and realized from the CIA American and the Mossad with the aid of the Zionist world in order to put under accusation the Arabic Countries and in order to induce the western powers to take part ... in Iraq [and] Afghanistan. "


to the translation in the comments:

"From sources close to Palazzo Chigi, nerve center of the Italian intelligence services, it is noted that the non-authenticity of the video is proven by the fact that in it Osama Bin Laden "confesses" that Al Qaeda authored the 9/11 attacks on the two towers in New York, while all democratic elements of America and Europe, and especially the Italian center-left, are well aware that the disastrous attack was planned and executed by the American CIA and the Mossad with help from organized Zionists in order to accuse the Arab world and to induce the Western powers to intervene in both Iraq and Afghanistan"

They changed “while all democratic elements of America and Europe, and especially the Italian center-left” to “ while all the [intelligence services] of America and Europe ... ”

I wonder if the Truth Movement will get to the bottom of this, and find out whether one of their members is a big liar.

[Dave Rogers]

I wonder if the Truth Movement will get to the bottom of this, and find out whether one of their members is a big liar.

One?

Dave

[Brainster]

I wonder if the Truth Movement will get to the bottom of this, and find out whether one of their members is a big liar.

Never chalk up to malice what can be attributed to stupidity. George Washington, aka Alex Floum, is without a doubt one of the biggest fatheads in the Troof movement. Confronted with the obvious fact that the "general strike" called for on September 11, 2007 had been an ignominious failure, Alex suggested an alternative "five-minute general strike" (http://www.911blogger.com/node/11961); of course in the real world this is referred to as a coffee break.

[16.5]

"Never chalk up to malice what can be attributed to stupidity. George Washington, aka Alex Floum, is without a doubt one of the biggest fatheads in the Troof movement."

I dunno, I have noted that the same garbage translation has spread throughout the Twoof movement all day.

Seems like he is mocking the "the Italian center-left" in the later translation, but I need more information on Italian politics, and given what little I do know about Italian politics, it is so complex it might be easier to find Bin Laden myself.

[Mr.Herbert]

Has anyone got the complete translation for this article? :D

[Brainster]

"Never chalk up to malice what can be attributed to stupidity. George Washington, aka Alex Floum, is without a doubt one of the biggest fatheads in the Troof movement."

I dunno, I have noted that the same garbage translation has spread throughout the Twoof movement all day.

Seems like he is mocking the "the Italian center-left" in the later translation, but I need more information on Italian politics, and given what little I do know about Italian politics, it is so complex it might be easier to find Bin Laden myself.

Could be; after putting the paragraph in question through Babel Fish myself, the relevant portion does seem to be poorly translated:

"From atmospheres near Chigi Palace, nevralgico center of direction of the Italian intelligence, attract attention that the authenticity of the video is not testified from the fact that Osama Bin Laden in it ' confessa' that To the Qaeda september to the two towers in New York would have been the author of the attack of the 11, while all the atmospheres democratics of America and Europe, with in front line those of the centrosinistra Italian, by now know well that the disastrous attack has been planned and realized from the Cia American and the Mossad with the aid of the sionista world in order to put under accusation the Arabic Countries and in order to induce the western powers to take part are in Iraq are in Afghanistan"

However, I didn't want to miss a chance to call Alex Floum fatheaded!

[Zlaya]

I asked an Italian friend about this, and his response was as follows:

Wow, ignorance is bliss, just keep repeating that to yourself my sheep like little friend.

[Astute Perspicuous]

hahahaha...

Let's see here. In this thread you attack;

A. The person who posted the article (that is true and was revealed to Italian media)
B. The age of the Ex President.
C. Translation
D. Try and say he was "Joking"

There is a thin line between being a skeptic, and being NARROW MINDED. Most of you so called debunkers have crossed that line.

Give it a rest already and help us try and fix this government already.

[16.5]

Zlaya & Astute

Wow, you might note that I have posted two very different translations of the article in this very thread. You post, ignoring this, and add absolutely nothing to the discussion? Yet you have the temerity to accuse US of being sheep?

You are correct, we are questioning the translation. Do you have anything worthwhile to add, or is the fact that it was posted on a Twoof website enough for you?

Baaaa.

[Redtail]

So I guess this means that the truthers will finally be able to put together a huge demonstration, march down to DC and demand the truth right? This guy was president of Italy and he says not only it was an inside job, but all of the intelligence agencies know it. So this means... what? 10,000 marching on ground zero, followed by 50,000 marching on DC a few months later?

[Astute Perspicuous]

EVEN IN YOUR TRANSLATION...Let me break it down for the intelligence impared.

non-authenticity of the video is proven by the fact that in it Osama Bin Laden "confesses" that Al Qaeda authored the 9/11 attacks on the two towers in New York, while all democratic elements of America and Europe, and especially the Italian center-left, are well aware that the disastrous attack was planned and executed by the American CIA and the Mossad

non-authenticity of the video is proven by the fact that in it Osama Bin Laden "confesses" that Al Qaeda authored the 9/11 attacks on the two towers in New York....THIS MEANS HE SAYS THE LATEST VIDEO IS FAKE.

while all democratic elements of America and Europe, and especially the Italian center-left, are well aware that the disastrous attack was planned and executed by the American CIA and the Mossad...

C'mon...you can try and spin it however you want, but it says;

well aware that the disastrous attack was planned and executed by the American CIA and the Mossad

Let the spin begin

[WildCat]

hahahaha...

Let's see here. In this thread you attack;

A. The person who posted the article (that is true and was revealed to Italian media)
B. The age of the Ex President.
C. Translation
D. Try and say he was "Joking"

There is a thin line between being a skeptic, and being NARROW MINDED. Most of you so called debunkers have crossed that line.
Assuming he is of sound mind and not joking, so what? It's just the same troofer mantra we've heard over and over, and still not a shred of evidence for your imaginary global government, media, and scientific conspiracy.

[Astute Perspicuous]

So I guess this means that the truthers will finally be able to put together a huge demonstration, march down to DC and demand the truth right? This guy was president of Italy and he says not only it was an inside job, but all of the intelligence agencies know it. So this means... what? 10,000 marching on ground zero, followed by 50,000 marching on DC a few months later?

This is where the problem is.

Everyone is so busy working, trying to pay bills, make sure their kids get fed and make it to soccer practice, it's really hard to get everyone together.

Millions are going to have their adjustable mortgage rates skyrocket. The price of gas and food and everything has risen. You have to work harder just too keep afloat.

It will happen...just when, nobody knows.

[Astute Perspicuous]

Assuming he is of sound mind and not joking, so what? It's just the same troofer mantra we've heard over and over, and still not a shred of evidence for your imaginary global government, media, and scientific conspiracy.

Since when did it become OUR job to provide "evidence"?

All we are trying to say is that the "official" story is a complete hoax and a "real" investigation is needed.

That is the purpose of a "real" investigation and not the whitewash that was carried out before.

[Rika]

It actually does not matter, at all, what the Italian President thinks if he cannot prove it.

[16.5]

Astute:

Well we agree on one thing! The first translation is garbage.

Let us focus on the second, then, shall we? It is what skeptics do.

Putting aside everything else, you'll note the phrase "all democratic elements of America and Europe, and especially the Italian center-left."

All democratic elements? What do you think that means?

More importantly, "especially the Italian center-left." That is curious, don't you agree? Why is he talking about "del centrosinistra italiano"?

At you will note that the original article is called "Osama-Berlusconi." What are your thoughts?

Do you care to see a full translation?

[Astute Perspicuous]

It actually does not matter, at all, what the Italian President thinks if he cannot prove it.

Once again...you are putting the burdon of proof on a person, rather than the COURTS.

That's what a real investigation is for...You have no idea if he can "prove" it or not.

There were many many people lost from "other" countries. I am sure there will be an outside investigation to find out how their people were murdered.

[tomwaits]

Since when did it become OUR job to provide "evidence"?

All we are trying to say is that the "official" story is a complete hoax and a "real" investigation is needed.

That is the purpose of a "real" investigation and not the whitewash that was carried out before.

stundie material!

[LashL]

Perhaps Henry62 can assist with an accurate translation.

(ETA: Actually, now that I think of it, his site is in Italian but he has it translated into English by someone else, I believe.)

[Astute Perspicuous]

Astute:

Well we agree on one thing! The first translation is garbage.

Let us focus on the second, then, shall we? It is what skeptics do.

Putting aside everything else, you'll note the phrase "all democratic elements of America and Europe, and especially the Italian center-left."

All democratic elements? What do you think that means?

More importantly, "especially the Italian center-left." That is curious, don't you agree? Why is he talking about "del centrosinistra italiano"?

At you will note that the original article is called "Osama-Berlusconi." What are your thoughts?

Do you care to see a full translation?


Yes...I do agree 100% that many in the truth movement glorify certain things to make a statement...but....nonetheless that does not mean that the message is wrong.

All democratic elements? I would have to say he means both the left and right.

"especially the Italian center-left." I am not familiar enough with Italian politics.
Do you care to see a full translation? Yes

[Drudgewire]

All I know about Italian politics is Cicciolina was a member of their Parliament.

http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/cicciolina3.jpg

So "yay Italy." :D

[Astute Perspicuous]

stundie material!

There is my point EXACTLY. You try and get us to form an opinion. When we refuse to form a "theory" you call people stundi material.

You will not get me to promote a theory...capeesh?!?

It's OUR job to prove there is REASONABLE SPECULATION that a crime has happened.

Just like if a person "Thinks" that their neighbor is stealing their mail. It is NOT the job of the victim to prove it, it is the victim's job to call authorities who form and investigation.

So...Yes, I would have to say that YOU are perfect STUNDIE MATERIAL.

[Rika]

Once again...you are putting the burdon of proof on a person, rather than the COURTS.

That's what a real investigation is for...You have no idea if he can "prove" it or not.

There were many many people lost from "other" countries. I am sure there will be an outside investigation to find out how their people were murdered.

He's right. This is stundie material. If you make a claim, you must back it up with evidence. It's a basic precept.

[Rika]

There is my point EXACTLY. You try and get us to form an opinion. When we refuse to form a "theory" you call people stundi material.

You will not get me to promote a theory...capeesh?!?

It's OUR job to prove there is REASONABLE SPECULATION that a crime has happened.

Just like if a person "Thinks" that their neighbor is stealing their mail. It is NOT the job of the victim to prove it, it is the victim's job to call authorities who form and investigation.

So...Yes, I would have to say that YOU are perfect STUNDIE MATERIAL.

Fine. But the speculation must also be backedup by valid evidence. :rolleyes:

[tomwaits]

So...Yes, I would have to say that YOU are perfect STUNDIE MATERIAL.


YEAH? WELL YOU ARE A BIG DOO DOO HEAD!

[Astute Perspicuous]

He's right. This is stundie material. If you make a claim, you must back it up with evidence. It's a basic precept.

Stundie all you want...I have NOT promoted ANY THEORY. It is a fact that many people from other countries were killed on 911.

Love how when you are on the ropes, you yell stundie. Your stundies matter not to me at all.

Fact is...it is NOT our job to "prove" anything. Let me requote it again for you to make it clear.

Just like if a person "Thinks" that their neighbor is stealing their mail. It is NOT the job of the victim to prove it, it is the victim's job to call authorities who form and investigation.

[Astute Perspicuous]

YEAH? WELL YOU ARE A BIG DOO DOO HEAD!

I love you too.

[DavidJames]

Just like if a person "Thinks" that their neighbor is stealing their mail. It is NOT the job of the victim to prove it, it is the victim's job to call authorities who form and investigation.So how's that working out for your team? What authorities have you called and what was their response?

[Drudgewire]

Fine. But the speculation must also be backedup by valid evidence. :rolleyes:
Yup, we're skeptics. If we were gummit shills or close-minded sheep like you guys like to pretend we are then Astute would be onto something. Instead, we go where the VERIFIABLE evidence takes us.

A thousand pounds of speculation equals exactly one turd around here without something to back it up.

[DGM]

Stundie all you want...I have NOT promoted ANY THEORY. It is a fact that many people from other countries were killed on 911.

Love how when you are on the ropes, you yell stundie. Your stundies matter not to me at all.

Fact is...it is NOT our job to "prove" anything. Let me requote it again for you to make it clear.
So I can call your local authorities and say you molest children and they won't ask me for proof?

[tomwaits]

Stundie all you want...I have NOT promoted ANY THEORY.

here it is, within this thread:
All we are trying to say is that the "official" story is a complete hoax


This is what I call a theory. To convince us of this, you will need some evidence. Just calling it "fact" is not going to cut it. Don't like it? Too bad. We're skeptics. It's what we do.

[Astute Perspicuous]

So I can call your local authorities and say you molest children and they won't ask me for proof?

Nope...they will ask you "WHY" you would think such a thing. They would ask you for your "speculation" as to "why" you think such a thing is happening.

It is up to them to "prove" it.

Nice subtle try at degradation.

[Astute Perspicuous]

here it is, within this thread:



This is what I call a theory. To convince us of this, you will need some evidence. Just calling it "fact" is not going to cut it. Don't like it? Too bad. We're skeptics. It's what we do.

Yes...the KEYWORD is "I". This is what "YOU" call a theory. What science calls a theory is 2 different things.

In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation.

or dictionary def

a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of ...
hypothesis: a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was ...
a belief that can guide behavior; "the architect has a theory that more is less"; "they killed him on the theory that dead men tell no tales"

[Hellbound]

Actually, your neighbor analogy isn't cutting it.

What you have is a case where they'vew already investigated your missing mail. They found some guys that had bits of it and confessed to the crime.

You're saying they are wrong, that they planted the evidence, and that a new investigation needs to be done.

Changes the scene a bit, doesn't it? Here's a clue for you, the courts won't allow you to re-try someone for the same crime, so if you're talking about courts then you're way off base. The police already marked the case as "closed", and they won't re-open it unless there's new evidence that calls that resolution into question.

So sorry, you're still at the point of needing evidence. Pretending you're just asking for an investigation is dishonest and ridiculous. The investigation has already been done. Now, you need to present some sort of reason to show that investigation was faulty, or some sort of new evidence that creates a reason for a new investigation.

What your doing is the same as the police who try to get an open warrant from a judge because they "really think this is the guy". If they have no evidence, it's just a fishing expedition...and one of those violations of rights you truthers keep yelling about.

Essentially, you have insufficient grounds for your warrant. Denied.

[Rika]

No, it was an example, and since that is your viewpoint, why do you post here? Go call the authorities.

[Drudgewire]

Just like if a person "Thinks" that their neighbor is stealing their mail. It is NOT the job of the victim to prove it, it is the victim's job to call authorities who form and investigation.[/B]
Except in this instance there has been an investigation, there is tons of video of the guy picking up his own mail, there is plenty of scientific and eyewitness evidence to show the guy accused was never anywhere near the mailbox at the time of the alleged thefts, and it turns out the guy making the accusation has a personal grudge against the accusee, and has been institutionalized for mental problems in the past.

At that point, it's no longer the job of the authorities to do a second investigation just to humor the crazy guy.

Hey, YOU chose the analogy. I'm just making it fit the situation.

[Hellbound]

Drudge:

GMTA

Or, in our case, MMTA

:D

[16.5]

Well, I have read various translations of the entire article from several different sources (mostly Truth sites), and did my own, and I can say two things:

1. The translation in the linked Blog is garbage.

2. The meaning of the article is shrouded in the mysteries of Italian politics. It seems to be mostly an attack on Silvio Berlusconi?

I don't give it much credence one way or the other in any event.

[Astute Perspicuous]

No, it was an example, and since that is your viewpoint, why do you post here? Go call the authorities.

I don't need to. I am sure they have already been called time and time again.

OK...and as for "proof" that the official story was a haox...chew on these.

"I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described," said John Farmer, a former New Jersey attorney general who led the staff inquiry into events on September 11, in an August 2006 interview.

Hamilton listed a number of reasons why the commission was set up to fail, including the late start of the Commission and the very short deadline imposed; the insufficient funds, 3 million dollars, initially allocated for conducting such an extensive investigation (later the Commission requested and received additional funds, but the chairs still felt hamstrung); the many politicians who did not want the Commission formed; the continuing resistance and opposition to the work of the Commission by many politicians, particularly those who did not wish to be blamed for any of what happened; and the denial of access by various agencies to documents and witnesses. "So there were all kinds of reasons we thought we were set up to fail."

I could keep quoting and quoting and quoting...but it will just make this thread long and off topic.

Let's get back on topic here. This thread was about Ex Italian Prez remember. Please don't TRY to get me to give a theory, as I have none.

[Drudgewire]

Drudge:

GMTA

Or, in our case, MMTA

:D
Hell yeah son. :alc:

[Redtail]

This is where the problem is.

Everyone is so busy working, trying to pay bills, make sure their kids get fed and make it to soccer practice, it's really hard to get everyone together.

Millions are going to have their adjustable mortgage rates skyrocket. The price of gas and food and everything has risen. You have to work harder just too keep afloat.

It will happen...just when, nobody knows.

Lame argument and here's why.

In late December and early January hundreds of thousands of people, who are in the exact same situations you mentioned above, will pack their bags in the houses who's ARMs have jacked through the roof, put the kids you mentioned in a car, burn gallons and gallons of gas, spend hundreds (in some cases thousands) of dollars on food. Why?

So they can go to Bowl games.

Many will go to these games to watch their old school play football. Many will do it just because they are fans, they didn't go to the school, hell some didn't even go to college.

Truth seekers claim, at best, our government is lying about the murder of 3,000 fellow citizens, or at worst, murdered those 3,000 themselves.

You yourself said
Give it a rest already and help us try and fix this government already.
and then you post the above as an excuse of why "truth seeker" types can't be bothered to leave their houses, go to DC or Ground Zero and demand the truth?

As I stated in the beginning, lame.

[Astute Perspicuous]

Now it's time "I" ask a question.

What will it take? Who has to come out and say;

"The official story is a lie"?

The Media
Dick Cheney
Nancy Pelosi
Hitlary Clinton
Jack Webb
Inspector Gadget
Secret Squirrel

What is the one event when you people will finally say;

OK, sorry, we were wrong and it's now time we do something to change things.

What is that event, or person, that will open your eyes?

[Redtail]

Now it's time "I" ask a question.

What will it take? Who has to come out and say;

"The official story is a lie"?

The Media
Dick Cheney
Nancy Pelosi
Hitlary Clinton
Jack Webb
Inspector Gadget
Secret Squirrel

What is the one event when you people will finally say;

OK, sorry, we were wrong and it's now time we do something to change things.

What is that evet, or person, that will open your eyes?

Proof that the official story is a lie.

[Drudgewire]

Now it's time "I" ask a question.

What will it take? Who has to come out and say;

"The official story is a lie"?

The Media
Dick Cheney
Nancy Pelosi
Hitlary Clinton
Jack Webb
Inspector Gadget
Secret Squirrel

What is the one event when you people will finally say;

OK, sorry, we were wrong and it's now time we do something to change things.

What is that evet, or person, that will open your eyes?
Actually, any of them... along with paperwork, unbiased testimony which supports them, or physical evidence that proves their point. Again, we're skeptics... give us REAL evidence and we'll follow it.

Of course, we've been waiting six years for a shred of it and haven't gotten any yet.

Now back atcha, what would it take for you to be convinced that everything your side spouts is speculative horsecrap with no basis in reality and despite anything else that has made this administration a total bust they didn't blow up the twin towers or allow it to happen?

[Pardalis]

You should change your username for "obtuse pernicious".

[Astute Perspicuous]

Proof that the official story is a lie.

and that proof would be?

[Astute Perspicuous]

You should change your username for "obtuse pernicious".


Let the name calling begin...

I love you too

[Firestone]

It is very bizarre.

It is not a quote of Cossiga, but of Cossiga "quoting" an article due to appear.

In the original article (http://www.corriere.it/politica/07_novembre_30/osama_berlusconi_cossiga_27f4ccee-9f55-11dc-8807-0003ba99c53b.shtml) in the Corriere della Serra, Cossiga is quoted as saying that "A quanto mi è stato detto domani o dopo domani la più potente catena quotidiani-periodici del nostro Paese dovrebbe dare le prove, con uno scoop eccezionale ..."

Meaning: "I have been told that tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, the most powerful press-group of our country will prove, in an exceptional scoop ...", followed by the claim that OBL's last audio has been fabricated in Milan at the instigation of Berlusconi, and later the "inside job" claim.

If you read carefully, Cossiga claims that a press-group will reveal it.

The article in Corriere della Serra is from november 30, so the "exceptional scoop" should have appeared by now.

[Hellbound]

and that proof would be?

Something more than the oft-trumpeted CTer smoking guns that turn out to be maifestations of ignorance.

Like CTers trumping the Italian politician's CT stance based on a very poor translation of a small part of a foreign article...a pre-judgement accepted because it fits with bias, instead of waiting for all the facts to come in.

[uk_dave]

This is where the problem is.

Everyone is so busy working, trying to pay bills, make sure their kids get fed and make it to soccer practice, it's really hard to get everyone together.

Millions are going to have their adjustable mortgage rates skyrocket. The price of gas and food and everything has risen. You have to work harder just too keep afloat.

It will happen...just when, nobody knows.

:dl:

Priceless. Freedom is only worth wittering away about endlessly on the internet.

What's the tipping point? How many americans does this incredible conspiracy have to kill before it's worth getting off your arse and doing something?

Can you put a number on it?

[Drudgewire]

The article in Corriere della Serra is from november 30, so the "exceptional scoop" should have appeared by now.
Oopsie. v:ov

[bynmdsue]

Everyone is so busy working, trying to pay bills, make sure their kids get fed and make it to soccer practice, it's really hard to get everyone together.


I guess these folks had no responsibilities

http://www.historicaldocuments.com/MarchonWashingtonPhotoAA.jpg

[Astute Perspicuous]

:dl:

Priceless. Freedom is only worth wittering away about endlessly on the internet.

What's the tipping point? How many americans does this incredible conspiracy have to kill before it's worth getting off your arse and doing something?

Can you put a number on it?


237,742

[uk_dave]

237,742

Oh well, you're safe then.

Pleased to see you don't take the imaginary conspiracy seriously.

[Redtail]

and that proof would be?

For starters the people you mentioned saying "it was a lie" and having the documentation to back it up.

[16.5]

Firestone:

"The article in Corriere della Serra is from november 30, so the "exceptional scoop" should have appeared by now."

The exceptional scoop was the Osama audio, and the audio did mention Berlusconi, for the first time.

I need a primer on Italian Politics

[Astute Perspicuous]

I guess these folks had no responsibilities

http://www.historicaldocuments.com/MarchonWashingtonPhotoAA.jpg

http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Profiles/9-11/Multimedia/9-11_Protest.jpg

[Pardalis]

I guess these folks had no responsibilities

http://www.historicaldocuments.com/MarchonWashingtonPhotoAA.jpg

And it was a Wednesday.

http://www.number-one.org/~rigg/dlr0164.htm

[Astute Perspicuous]

For starters the people you mentioned saying "it was a lie" and having the documentation to back it up.

Try reading "Without Precedent" Lee Hamilton & Thomas Kean

[Drudgewire]

http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Profiles/9-11/Multimedia/9-11_Protest.jpg
Hahahaha, great shot of two 9/11 cover-up signs in the middle of a massive anti-war rally.

Man, you're still new to this whole concept of evidence that doesn't need quotation marks around the word, aren't you?

[Pardalis]

http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Profiles/9-11/Multimedia/9-11_Protest.jpg

Looks like an anti-war rally, with a few twoofers.

[Firestone]

Firestone:

"The article in Corriere della Serra is from november 30, so the "exceptional scoop" should have appeared by now."

The exceptional scoop was the Osama audio, and the audio did mention Berlusconi, for the first time.No, the article in the Corriere della Serra appeared after the release of the audio.
The scoop was supposed to be that the Bin Laden-audio was fabricated in Milan by Berlusconi's cronies.

[Redtail]

http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Profiles/9-11/Multimedia/9-11_Protest.jpg

Yes, a few people carrying truth seeker signs joined a peace protest march. Once again, lame.

[Redtail]

Try reading "Without Precedent" Lee Hamilton & Thomas Kean

In the words of the commission’s co-chairmen, this is the compelling inside story of how the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States—more commonly known as the 9/11 Commission—managed to succeed against all odds in producing a report that made clear what went wrong and why.

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780307263773

[TheRedWorm]

Actually, any of them... along with paperwork, unbiased testimony which supports them, or physical evidence that proves their point. Again, we're skeptics... give us REAL evidence and we'll follow it.

Of course, we've been waiting six years for a shred of it and haven't gotten any yet.

Now back atcha, what would it take for you to be convinced that everything your side spouts is speculative horsecrap with no basis in reality and despite anything else that has made this administration a total bust they didn't blow up the twin towers or allow it to happen?


You didn't answer. If you would be so kind as to do so.

[16.5]

No, the article in the Corriere della Serra appeared after the release of the audio.
The scoop was supposed to be that the Bin Laden-audio was fabricated in Milan by Berlusconi's cronies.

While the article may have appeared after the release of the audio, there is no doubt that the ex-pres's comments were made BEFORE the release (in fact I think he called it a video, and he said the Silvio had not contacted his successor, and the report ends noting "In realtà è giunta a Berlusconi la solidarietà per il governo di Vannino Chiti, ministro per i Rapporti con il Parlamento." Which I take to mean that Berlusconi had contacted him and expressed his "solidarity" with the new government).

[Pardalis]

In the words of the commission’s co-chairmen, this is the compelling inside story of how the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States—more commonly known as the 9/11 Commission—managed to succeed against all odds in producing a report that made clear what went wrong and why.

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780307263773


Not to mention that Hamilton clearly states here that he doesn't believe the American government was behind 9/11:

RgnMHLiL9rk

[Firestone]

Sorry, double.

[Firestone]

While the article may have appeared after the release of the audio, there is no doubt that the ex-pres's comments were made BEFORE the release (in fact I think he called it a video, and he said the Silvio had not contacted his successor, and the report ends noting "In realtà è giunta a Berlusconi la solidarietà per il governo di Vannino Chiti, ministro per i Rapporti con il Parlamento." Which I take to mean that Berlusconi had contacted him and expressed his "solidarity" with the new government).Sorry to disagree again.

There is really no doubt that Cossiga is talking about the already released audio (which he indeed calls video), and annouces a coming scoop.
Cossiga explicitly says that Al Jazeera has already broadcasted the message: "...un videomontaggio realizzato negli studi di Mediaset a Milano e fatto giungere alla rete televisiva islamista Al Jazira che lo ha ampiamente diffuso."

The last paragraph of Cossiga's quote is:

"Per questo - conclude Cossiga - nessuna parola di solidarietà è giunta a Silvio Berlusconi, che sarebbe l'ideatore della geniale falsificazione, né dal Quirinale, né da Palazzo Chigi né da esponenti del centrosinistra!"

Meaning: "For this reason [9/11 being an inside job]- concludes Cossiga - no show of solidarity with Berlusconi [who is treathened in the audio by Bin Laden], the maker of this fake audio will come from the president, the prime minister or others from the centre-left".

The Corriere della Serra concludes: "In realtà è giunta a Berlusconi la solidarietà per il governo di Vannino Chiti, ministro per i Rapporti con il Parlamento."

Meaning: "In reality, minister Vannino Chiti, minister for the relations with the parliament, has expressed, in the name of the governement, his solidarity with Berlusconi."

[Drudgewire]

Not to mention that Hamilton clearly states here that he doesn't believe the American government was behind 9/11:

RgnMHLiL9rk
A truther providing evidence that directly blows his own point out of the water? Well that has to be a first. :p

[Astute Perspicuous]

Not to mention that Hamilton clearly states here that he doesn't believe the American government was behind 9/11:

RgnMHLiL9rk

I agree 100%...The US Gov "was not" behind 9/11.

International Bankers owe no loyalty to any certain country.

[Drudgewire]

I agree 100%...The US Gov "was not" behind 9/11.

International Bankers owe no loyalty to any certain country.
And yet an awful lot* of you seem to think they give their loyalty to Israel.




*"awful lot" based on percentage of twoofers who use the term "international bankers." In the real world there aren't an "awful lot" of you.

[CHF]

http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Profiles/9-11/Multimedia/9-11_Protest.jpg

Now that, was friggin' lame. Three twoofer signs poked into a scene of tens of thousands.

But then I recall hearing that this would be a new twoofer tactic. Says a lot about what you think your support level is, Astute.

[Astute Perspicuous]

And yet an awful lot* of you seem to think they give their loyalty to Israel.




*"awful lot" based on percentage of twoofers who use the term "international bankers." In the real world there aren't an "awful lot" of you.

I am not one of those. I can't speak for the people who think such a thing as I believe if it suited them (The Bankers) they would wipe any country off the map including Israel.

[CHF]

Since when did it become OUR job to provide "evidence"?

All we are trying to say is that the "official" story is a complete hoax and a "real" investigation is needed.

That is the purpose of a "real" investigation and not the whitewash that was carried out before.
Who do you think should investigate 9/11? Some names, if you don't mind...

[16.5]

Firestone

Aha! I see now that you are correct. Curse you Dante Alighieri and your development of the Italian Language!

[Astute Perspicuous]

Who do you think should investigate 9/11? Some names, if you don't mind...

A special tribunal set up by the people of America. Not "truther", not "Government officials"

A panel of private investigators, forensic scientists, and experts in many fields that did not have a bias view to start with.

[Drudgewire]

Now that, was friggin' lame. Three twoofer signs poked into a scene of tens of thousands.

But then I recall hearing that this would be a new twoofer tactic. Says a lot about what you think your support level is, Astute.
It really does. All those thousands of people who hate the war and the president enough to travel and take part in a protest together in one place, and even amongst them... most of whom would LOVE to find out Bush/Cheney had any part in this at all so they could hang them... TWO (maybe three... I think I see a third one waaaaaaaaay in the back) chose to use their placards to accuse them.

Bill Maher, the guy who LOST HIS JOB because he said something unpopular about the war, thinks truthers are absolute idiots for which "ass kickings are in order" for being so stupid.

Bill Clinton, the guy who could walk his wife into the White House tomorrow if he so much as hinted this administration played the tiniest role in allowing those people to die, gets angrier than I've ever seen him about anything when he's asked about a 9/11 cover-up.

WHY DOES NONE OF THIS SINK IN WITH THESE PEOPLE???

[Mr.Herbert]

Originally Posted by Astute Perspicuous http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3213252#post3213252)
Since when did it become OUR job to provide "evidence"?

All we are trying to say is that the "official" story is a complete hoax and a "real" investigation is needed.

That is the purpose of a "real" investigation and not the whitewash that was carried out before.

Who do you think should investigate 9/11? Some names, if you don't mind...

The teller at the Bank Of America Branch in the Boston Back Bay branch... the hose bag wouldn't cash my third party check!!

[Drudgewire]

A panel of private investigators, forensic scientists, and experts in many fields that did not have a bias view to start with.
Of course, to the non-paranoids of the world, Popular Mechanics and Purdue University have already done this.

[rwguinn]

A special tribunal set up by the people of America. Not "truther", not "Government officials"

A panel of private investigators, forensic scientists, and experts in many fields that did not have a bias view to start with.

Sounds a whole lot like the kinds of folk who did all the work for the NIST reposts...

[PhantomWolf]

Hahahaha, great shot of two 9/11 cover-up signs in the middle of a massive anti-war rally.

I can count 5, but otherwise.....

[Astute Perspicuous]

Sounds a whole lot like the kinds of folk who did all the work for the NIST reposts...Yea...the same folks that said they "STILL" have no explanation for building 7.

[Drudgewire]

I can count 5, but otherwise.....
Well I'll be, you're right. I did see the one in the back by a later post but missed the one behind the first two and the one in the very corner.

Well if nothing else, we got a Where's Waldo game out of this thread. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/haw.gif

[T.A.M.]

Guys;

Let them run with this. We know it will turn out to be either BS, or irrelevant, and the truthers have had so little to get excited about lately. I mean with only a year or so to go before their movement falls completely into darkness, they are getting angry.

TAM:)

[Astute Perspicuous]

Guys;

Let them run with this. We know it will turn out to be either BS, or irrelevant, and the truthers have had so little to get excited about lately. I mean with only a year or so to go before their movement falls completely into darkness, they are getting angry.

TAM:)

Two can play at this game.

Do you have any "PROOF" that in a year or so their movement falls completely into darkness?

STUNDIE!

[Drudgewire]

Two can play at this game.

Do you have any "PROOF" that in a year or so before their movement falls completely into darkness?

STUNDIE!
http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/downsrim.gif

[beachnut]

http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Profiles/9-11/Multimedia/9-11_Protest.jpg
Looks like a fake photo.

[T.A.M.]

Two can play at this game.

Do you have any "PROOF" that in a year or so their movement falls completely into darkness?

STUNDIE!

Did you really just ask me if I have any proof of something that has not even happened yet? really?

What you have said is, believe it or not, TOO STUPID for a stundie.

TAM:)

[16.5]

Looks like a fake photo.

You know, you are correct. I see at least six signs in that picture, the two in the foreground appear real, one half sign is iffy, and the other three, including that weird one way in the back, appear shopped.

OMG! OUTSIDE JORB!

[beachnut]

Two can play at this game.

Do you have any "PROOF" that in a year or so their movement falls completely into darkness?

STUNDIE!
9/11 truth is past darkness, it is pure garbage; into the garbage can of vile lies and ignorant scraps of pathetic fraud. Do you own survey, ask your friends what they think about 9/11 truth ideas; I have found zero people in the real world who support 9/11 truth; that means it is hard to find those 0.00067 percent of all world engineers who believe in 9/11 truth, which is really fraud and lies about 9/11.

I would call the 9/11 truth movement has never made it past darkness, ignorance, or fraud.

And not a single member of 9/11 truth can fix the ignorance of 9/11 truth; WHY? Your ideas have failed to make an impact on the pathetic failure of 9/11 truth.

9/11 truth has always been in the darkness of total ignorance. What is new? A nut case from Italy says the CIA did 9/11 and he adds an anti Semitic statement too. How Pathetic is the 9/11 truth movement!? 9/11 truth is equal to ignorance! Pathetic morons make up lies about 9/11 – see 9/11 truth.
"[Bin Laden supposedly confessed] to the Qaeda September [attack] to the two towers in New York [claiming to be] the author of the attack of the 11, while all the [intelligence services] of America and Europe ... now know well that the disastrous attack has been planned and realized from the CIA American and the Mossad with the aid of the Zionist world in order to put under accusation the Arabic Countries and in order to induce the western powers to take part ... in Iraq [and] Afghanistan."
What a load of junk!

[CHF]

A special tribunal set up by the people of America. Not "truther", not "Government officials"

A panel of private investigators, forensic scientists, and experts in many fields that did not have a bias view to start with.

Sounds fair so far.

Who should fund it?

[procrastinate maybe]

Given Cossiga's involvement with the Italian Fascist movement, it's little surprise that the Troofers are calling him their own, given their cosying up with the far-right when it suits them.

Over at DU (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=186645&mesg_id=186646), skeptic Leo Lincourt (salvorhardin) pointed out the following from a google translation

now know well that the disastrous attack was planned and carried out by the American CIA and the Mossad with the help of the Zionist world order accused the Arab countries and to induce the Western powers to intervene in Iraq and in Afghanistan.

[scissorhands]

You know, you are correct. I see at least six signs in that picture, the two in the foreground appear real, one half sign is iffy, and the other three, including that weird one way in the back, appear shopped.

OMG! OUTSIDE JORB!

Probably not,the only other image I can find of this is at... http://www.flickr.com/photos/55281377@N00/102925932

Photographer is Hayden Roger Celestin.

shows no sign of photoshopping but is identical.

This one has been through photoshop, but only to add credits for photographer and information as to the event.

Still, it shows the desperation of the truth movement, having to rely on infiltrating a large march, sticking up a few flags and proclaiming it as some kind of evidence of mass support.

[Astute Perspicuous]

Sounds fair so far.

Who should fund it?

There should be an anon fund set up where the public can donate ANY level of money with NO LIMITS on amounts. It should be kept PRIVATE and those who donate should be kept SECRET to protect their identity so they do not aquire any backlash. The donors also have NO EXTRA SAY in how the investigation is run.

[annexw]

There should be an anon fund set up where the public can donate ANY level of money with NO LIMITS on amounts. It should be kept PRIVATE and those who donate should be kept SECRET to protect their identity so they do not aquire any backlash. The donors also have NO EXTRA SAY in how the investigation is run.

And who would manage this fund? If "The Bankers" are so entrenched, how will you keep them out?

Who would decide on the investigators? You say "Americans", but you'd be hard-pressed to get them all in a room to vote.

[Astute Perspicuous]

And who would manage this fund? If "The Bankers" are so entrenched, how will you keep them out?

Who would decide on the investigators? You say "Americans", but you'd be hard-pressed to get them all in a room to vote.

I never said I have all the answers...There would have to be some group that manages the funds.

As for the Americans who pick the investigators...you make it like Jury duty where if you're selected to be on a panel to pick the investigators, you are obligated to do so.

[T.A.M.]

someone has to access the money to put it to use. Who would that be...who would decide who that would be? Who would his assistants be (cause you know he/she has to have them...lol)?

Far fetched fairytale pipe dreams with no basis in reality.

TAM:)

[Astute Perspicuous]

someone has to access the money to put it to use. Who would that be...who would decide who that would be? Who would his assistants be (cause you know he/she has to have them...lol)?

Far fetched fairytale pipe dreams with no basis in reality.

TAM:)

Yup...With people like yourself with that "Can't Do" attitude, I guess you're most likely right. It will never get done.

[Gravy]

Probably not,the only other image I can find of this is at... http://www.flickr.com/photos/55281377@N00/102925932

Photographer is Hayden Roger Celestin.

shows no sign of photoshopping but is identical.

This one has been through photoshop, but only to add credits for photographer and information as to the event.

Still, it shows the desperation of the truth movement, having to rely on infiltrating a large march, sticking up a few flags and proclaiming it as some kind of evidence of mass support.I was in that march. If there were any 9/11 denier signs near me, I didn't notice them. Then again, I was next to the topless chicks for much of the march.

[Architect]

You mean agent 003459?

He's a bloke, you know.

[Gravy]

Yup...With people like yourself with that "Can't Do" attitude, I guess you're most likely right. It will never get done.It's the truth movement that has the can't do attitude. Jimmy Walter says he spent $5 million calling for a new investigation. Imagine the investigating that could have been done with that money!

Ask yourself why, if the truth movement has millions of supporters, they can't exert political pressure for this new investigation, and they refuse to fund one themselves.

It's nearly 2008, and you have nothing but utterly incompetent leaders, and none of you has written a single paper that could pass peer review in a reputable engineering journal.

What the hell are you armchair revolutionaries waiting for, "Astute?"?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/87904670cd1dc0fcb.jpg

[Corsair 115]

A panel of private investigators, forensic scientists, and experts in many fields that did not have a bias view to start with.Define "bias view" please.

[Gravy]

You mean agent 003459?

He's a bloke, you know.Nuh-uh! While ogling one of them, I realized that I knew her. Later she showed up, clothed, at the bar where I was drinking. It was a bit awkward, at least for me.

[dudalb]

I never said I have all the answers...There would have to be some group that manages the funds.

As for the Americans who pick the investigators...you make it like Jury duty where if you're selected to be on a panel to pick the investigators, you are obligated to do so.

Regardless of whether they are halfway competent investigators or not?
Ah,truther logic.

[Architect]

Nuh-uh! While ogling one of them, I realized that I knew her. Later she showed up, clothed, at the bar where I was drinking. It was a bit awkward, at least for me.


I remember one of the lads doing that to a girl who turned out to be the wee sister of one of the other blokes. Talk about a laugh, as we watched the two of them almost come to blows whilst flitching their beer....

Those were the days.

:D

[Caper]

Nuh-uh! While ogling one of them, I realized that I knew her. Later she showed up, clothed, at the bar where I was drinking. It was a bit awkward, at least for me.

Oh... that rules!!!

[Astute Perspicuous]

Regardless of whether they are halfway competent investigators or not?
Ah,truther logic.


Nothing like "twisting" it into something it's not. It's obvious (to those with a brain) that the panel would pick the investigators based on experience and a vote would be in order.

Does everything need to be spelled out in such simple terms for you to understand? If so, please let me know and I will gladly cater to your inability to reason.

[Architect]

Nothing like "twisting" it into something it's not. It's obvious (to those with a brain) that the panel would pick the investigators based on experience and a vote would be in order.


What technical qualifications do you consider necessary?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Once again...you are putting the burdon of proof on a person, rather than the COURTS.

That's what a real investigation is for...You have no idea if he can "prove" it or not.


Oh, awesome... the ol' "prove you're not a child molester" triple back-flip (or, in this case, "have a third-party prove you're not a child molester").

Various organizations, both government and independent, have done investigations into 9/11 appropriate to their field. They have released their findings, and the evidence they've used to come to their conclusions, in various forms. The whole of these conclusions constitutes the "official story" of 9/11.

You, and your movement, have made an insanely vague statement that "it's all a lie". It is now up to you to provide the evidence for why this is so.

It's been 6 years. Are you going to wait 6 more?

[CHF]

There should be an anon fund set up where the public can donate ANY level of money with NO LIMITS on amounts. It should be kept PRIVATE and those who donate should be kept SECRET to protect their identity so they do not aquire any backlash. The donors also have NO EXTRA SAY in how the investigation is run.

I never said I have all the answers...There would have to be some group that manages the funds.

As for the Americans who pick the investigators...you make it like Jury duty where if you're selected to be on a panel to pick the investigators, you are obligated to do so.

What I'm looking for is an investigation set-up that won't be dismissed by twoofers if it returned a verdict you didn't like.

Thus far, what I've heard from you is: highly qualified experts should be chosen by...umm...someone, and these experts will then be funded by...ah, people...who donate money anonymously...a process that will be overseen by someone else....and the money will be managed by...umm, some other people.

You'll have to do better in order for this investigation to get off the ground.

[MIKILLINI]

Astute, have you read the 9/11 Commission report? If so, what flaws do you believe are in it?
If you haven't read it, why not?

[Reality Believer]

Probably not,the only other image I can find of this is at... http://www.flickr.com/photos/55281377@N00/102925932

Photographer is Hayden Roger Celestin.

shows no sign of photoshopping but is identical.

This one has been through photoshop, but only to add credits for photographer and information as to the event.

Still, it shows the desperation of the truth movement, having to rely on infiltrating a large march, sticking up a few flags and proclaiming it as some kind of evidence of mass support.

Check this one out. Looks like an identical angle and location, but no 911 hoo ha. Came from here: http://www.dhadm.com/content/category/the-war-on-terror/

Have been trying to find a higher resolution one, but no luck yet.

[Sporanox]

Since when did it become OUR job to provide "evidence"?

All we are trying to say is that the "official" story is a complete hoax and a "real" investigation is needed.

That is the purpose of a "real" investigation and not the whitewash that was carried out before.


GOVERNMENT SHILL!!

There is no possible way that you are in the 9/11 truth movement (okay, maybe one...). You're just attempting to make it look even worse than it was before.


Nothing like "twisting" it into something it's not. It's obvious (to those with a brain) that the panel would pick the investigators based on experience and a vote would be in order.

Does everything need to be spelled out in such simple terms for you to understand? If so, please let me know and I will gladly cater to your inability to reason.

See, here you go again. You obviously believe that this panel would logically pick from the thousands of structural engineers whose views are most applicable to this matter, and they would debunk 9/11 Truth. So you're dooming the truth investigation from the start. SHILL!

-Sporanox

[Redtail]

Check this one out. Looks like an identical angle and location, but no 911 hoo ha. Came from here: http://www.dhadm.com/content/category/the-war-on-terror/

Have been trying to find a higher resolution one, but no luck yet.

I think there are two 9/11 signs near the front right beside the orange peace symbol. Or at least they are similar signs.

[cyclonic]

GOVERNMENT SHILL!!

There is no possible way that you are in the 9/11 truth movement (okay, maybe one...).

-Sporanox

Which one is that?

[Sporanox]

Which one is that?

That he actually believes what he's saying...

-Sporanox

[Astute Perspicuous]

GOVERNMENT SHILL!!

There is no possible way that you are in the 9/11 truth movement (okay, maybe one...). You're just attempting to make it look even worse than it was before.



See, here you go again. You obviously believe that this panel would logically pick from the thousands of structural engineers whose views are most applicable to this matter, and they would debunk 9/11 Truth. So you're dooming the truth investigation from the start. SHILL!

-Sporanox

Right here is the exact reason why the truth movement gets noplace and a prime example of some person's imagination run amok.

[Sporanox]

Right here is the exact reason why the truth movement gets noplace and a prime example of some person's imagination run amok.

You can say anything you want when you're disinfo...

-Sporanox

[Astute Perspicuous]

You can say anything you want when you're disinfo...

-Sporanox

And you can get away with saying anything you want when you're a kid.

Please, grow up a lil or I will be forced to just ignore your postings for what they are...Baby talk.

[PhantomWolf]

I think there are two 9/11 signs near the front right beside the orange peace symbol. Or at least they are similar signs.

There are, they are partially covered up though.

Talking about partially covered, Gravy you didn't get photos did you?

[Reality Believer]

I think there are two 9/11 signs near the front right beside the orange peace symbol. Or at least they are similar signs.
You are right, I withdraw my previous claim of "no woo".

I guess this is a micro example of how research is done. Make an observation, gather evidence from multiple sources, get several analysts involved, revise the hypothesis, admit when you are wrong, and blame it on the truther.

[Sporanox]

And you can get away with saying anything you want when you're a kid.

Please, grow up a lil or I will be forced to just ignore your postings for what they are...Baby talk.

Okay, I guess I'll reveal it to you now. I was being sarcastic. The point is that this is exactly what truthers do to anybody in the truther movement that you don't agree with.

In fact, you've even gone so far to apparently support the conclusion that Osama bin Laden's videos that claim responsibility for 9/11 are disinfo. For no reason other than they disagree with your opinion.

-Sporanox

[Alferd_Packer]

Proof that the official story is a lie.

and that proof would be?

Isn't that your job, to provide the proof?

[eeyore1954]

while all the [intelligence services] of America and Europe ... now know well that the disastrous attack has been planned and realized from the CIA American and the Mossad with the aid of the Zionist world in order to put under accusation the Arabic Countries and in order to induce the western powers to take part ... in Iraq [and] Afghanistan. "

so what if the man who said this is a former leader of Italy if what he claims is true why have all these intelligence services (aren't there plenty in Europe who do not like the US and Bush) not mentioned it much.
And what is the supposed evidence that would allow all these agencies to know this "fact" well.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

You are right, I withdraw my previous claim of "no woo".

I guess this is a micro example of how research is done. Make an observation, gather evidence from multiple sources, get several analysts involved, revise the hypothesis, admit when you are wrong, and blame it on the truther.


It is the same street, though, just a little further "down stream". You can tell by using that dark gray, block... thing... that's on the right-hand side of both images as a landmark.

[westprog]

and that proof would be?


An analysis by a respectable, qualified structural engineer casting doubt on the collapse mechanism.
A witness who saw a missile strike the Pentagon.
A witness who saw explosives being planted in the WTC.
A confession by an intelligence operative to the conspiracy.
It isn't hard to think of many, many things that would constitute, if not proof, at least grounds to investigate further.

Things that don't constitute any kind of evidence whatsoever


Claims that the buildings fell faster than free fall speed.
Claims that the buildings fell straight down and shouldn't have, by unqualified people.
Claims that the buildings ejected material and shouldn't have, by unqualified people.
Pictures of where the plane didn't hit the Pentagon, coupled with an insistence that the hole should have been bigger.And so on.

But the movement isn't interested in real proof, or a real investigation. I've suggested on a number of occasions that some member of the truth movement should just call up a structural engineer in Iran, or Russia, and ask him if he thinks the collapse of the WTC was impossible. They won't do this because they know what the answer will be. They know that their theories don't really apply to the real world.

AP could do this. He could look up the telephone number of some structural engineer far, far from American influence, and call him up and ask him what he thinks. He might not get anywhere - he might not be able to persuade them to give an opinion. But he could try. And he won't.

[westprog]

I was in that march. If there were any 9/11 denier signs near me, I didn't notice them. Then again, I was next to the topless chicks for much of the march.

I don't think this can be taken as evidence of anything at all.

Perhaps Chill Zero could comment on this. The Chill Zero picture has changed once, and I for one am looking forward to the next one.

[timhau]

so what if the man who said this is a former leader of Italy

A minor point: in Italy, the President isn't really the leader of the nation. The Italian presidency is more like a figurehead position; the real political leader is the Prime Minister.

[Firestone]

A minor point: in Italy, the President isn't really the leader of the nation. The Italian presidency is more like a figurehead position; the real political leader is the Prime Minister.Cossiga has also been prime minister of Italy.

Of course, as has been pointed out before, it doesn't really matter.

A careful reading of the article in the Corriere della Sera leaves little doubt that Cossiga is being sarcastic about the perceived tendency of the Italian left to blame everything on Berlusconi, the Americans and the Zionists.

The "exceptional scoop" he announces in the article has (of course) failed to materialize.

[leftysergeant]

A special tribunal set up by the people of America. Not "truther", not "Government officials"

A panel of private investigators, forensic scientists, and experts in many fields that did not have a bias view to start with.

I can just see it now. A panel that treats idiots like Fetzer and AJ as though they had something to say relevant to how the laws of physics work in THIS time/space continuum. Lame. What you are talking about sounds basicly like a cangaroo court that would make Chairman Moa proud. Or something like Hitler's Staatsgericht.

Until that dithering old moonbat Cossiga comes forward with some evidence, I shall simply write this off as another twoofer trouser cough.

[T.A.M.]

Yup...With people like yourself with that "Can't Do" attitude, I guess you're most likely right. It will never get done.

I actually take your comments on my REALITY BASED attitude as a complement. One day you will hopefully grow up to realize what the world really works like, and to work positively WITHIN IT.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

AP:

You have accused others here of being infantile, meanwhile your suggestion of what should be done is as naive and fairytale-like as anything I have seen come from your movement.

The attitude of "I want a new investigation" but with out any realistic proposition for how it would be done is liken to the little girl who screams at her parents "I want a pony", but gives no consideration to the cost to purchase, the cost to feed it, cleaning up after it, or where the pony would be kept. Instead, her thinking is, "someone will do all that."

TAM:)

[chillzero]

I don't think this can be taken as evidence of anything at all.

Perhaps Chill Zero could comment on this. The Chill Zero picture has changed once, and I for one am looking forward to the next one.

:eek:

I think my corndog is out of proportion. :p

Anyway, I agree with the point raised earlier, that it doesn't really matter who says that 911 was an inside job - unless they can provide some evidence to back it up. Why is this man being looked to as an authority on the matter? Particularly based on a shoddy translation.

[peteweaver]

Nope...they will ask you "WHY" you would think such a thing. They would ask you for your "speculation" as to "why" you think such a thing is happening.

It is up to them to "prove" it.

Nice subtle try at degradation.

No, its up to the person who makes the allegations to prove there is something to the claims, without evidence, speculation is worthless.

Libel as with Slander is a crime, if someone alleged on a website that you were a thief, and there was no evidence to even charge you with that; if you wanted, you could take them to court, sue them for libel, and recieve compensation.

...............................
As for sept 11th, the onus of proof is on you.

[scissorhands]

Check this one out. Looks like an identical angle and location, but no 911 hoo ha. Came from here: http://www.dhadm.com/content/category/the-war-on-terror/

Have been trying to find a higher resolution one, but no luck yet.

Its certainly the same location and angle, but not the same timing.
The twoofyness could have passed by the location or not arrived yet.
There is a hint of those pinkish coloured signs at the middle right of the photo?

[Dr Adequate]

[A]ll democratic elements of America and Europe, and especially the Italian center-left, are well aware that the disastrous attack was planned and executed by the American CIA and the Mossad with help from organized Zionists in order to accuse the Arab world and to induce the Western powers to intervene in both Iraq and Afghanistan ... For this reason no show of solidarity with Berlusconi [who is threatened in the audio by Bin Laden], the maker of this fake audio will come from the president, the prime minister or others from the centre-left". So, he's saying that the Italian center-left are Truthers.

Cossiga himself, meanwhile, is on the right, being a member of the conservative Christian Democratic party.

So it seems that when he says that the center-left are Truthers, this is not so much an endorsement of Truthism as an insult aimed at the center-left. And aimed inaccurately, since, as the newspaper notes, they have expressed solidarity with Berlusconi. When Cossiga says that the Italian center-left are Truthers, he's lying.

[timhau]

When Cossiga says that the Italian center-left are Truthers, he's lying.

Literally, yes, but it does read like a roundabout way of saying that they're raving lunatics.

[Praktik]

The most ardent CTer I've encountered on another board responded with the infowars story on Cossiga in a thread on Zeitgeist there. I had done a factual take down on the claim that Krishna was "crucified" - and he responded with the infowars woo.

Came to this forum for some ammunition and found enough to take him down a peg or two.

I heart JREF! :)

[Drudgewire]

I'm starting to get the idea some of these Italian politicians should think before opening their damn mouths (http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL0563062920071205?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=22&sp=true). :boggled:

[T.A.M.]

Welcome to the forum Praktik.

Stick around, read a lot, and you will have A TONNE of info to help.

look up threads started by a user named Ref. He has a couple of threads where he has compiled a linkage to threads of evidence here at JREF for the various 9/11 topics.

AS well, go to the link in the signature of the user named "Gravy".

Have fun.

TAM:)

[JJM 777]

Here is a link that gives some info about the Italian newspaper article. No full transcript though.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7550

[Dr Adequate]

Here is a link that gives some info about the Italian newspaper article. No full transcript though. That's not information, that's the Truth.

... you know what I mean.

* has Orwell moment *

[tomwaits]

other articles on this page:



America is Going Fascist
The signs are all there for anyone to see, and time is getting short for action
- by Michael Nenonen - 2007-12-03

The Plot to Rig the 2008 US Election
- by Johann Hari - 2007-11-30

Bush's World War Three
- by Michel Chossudovsky - 2007-10-17
The specter of a nuclear holocaust, which haunted the world for half a century has been relegated to the status of "collateral damage".


and the real kicker.....

"Doomsday Seed Vault" in the Arctic
- by F. William Engdahl - 2007-12-04
Bill Gates, Rockefeller and the GMO giants know something we don’t




bahahahahahah

[uk_dave]

Bill Gates, Rockefeller and the GMO giants know something we don’t






Well, at least they got that bit right.:D

[Firestone]

Here (http://zaytunah.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!5EF9EABB3230D629!687.entry) you can read a (imho) correct translation of the article in Corriere della Sera.

(The translation seems to be the only correct thing on that blog, though. :))

As noted before, the article starts as follows: «Based on what I've heard, either tomorrow or the day after, the biggest newspaper chain in our country will provide an exceptional scoop, evidence that the video [actually an audio, editor] in which Osama Bin Laden, leader of the 'Great and Powerful Movement of Islamic Retribution Al Qaeda', may Allah bless him!, which contains threats against [Italy's] ex-premier Silvio Berlusconi, is nothing but a forgery created in Mediaset's studios in Milan and forwarded to the Islamic TV network Al-Jazeerah which aired it». So stated the former President of the Republic [of Italy] Francesco Cossiga in a press release.

Needless to say that the announced "exceptional scoop" is nowhere to be found yet.

[Dr Adequate]

BTW, who put the stuff in square brackets into the Twoofer "quote"? Twoof just seems to turn up by magic.

* thinks about "Twoof Fairy" joke, thinks better of it *

Where does it come from? Someone must have made the first mangled version that they all passed on, but how would one go about finding out who?

We know that there was only a matter of ... what? ... days? ... hours? ... between the actual quote and the doctored quote. Would it not be possible to find out, on this one occasion, where bull**** comes from?

The trouble is, all the witnesses are Twoofers.

[Pape]

Hi guys,

I'm from Italy, so I know very well the sarcasm of our former president Cossiga. Before doing a translation of the article, I'd like to point out that Cossiga does NOT thrust in CT about 9/11, and he said that a lot of time. Italian CTers (like Giulietto Chiesa) seems to have a very short memory, and while they point to his latest interview on Corriere della Sera thinking Cossiga is a CTer, they forget to mention many other interviews released by the former president, like this one on La Stampa (sorry, but the forum does not allow me to link) another important italian newspaper. (to be precise, this is not an interview but an article written by Cossiga himself)

I won't translate all this one, but just the most important sentence (BTW, if you are interested in the full translation, just ask me ^_^):

"Rifiuto la teorica «complottista» che è un'abile e talvolta sincera contraffazione della realtà per il timore di essa: Moro sarebbe stato rapito dalle «così dette» Brigate Rosse, strumento della CIA, o del KGB o della P2 o del… Priorato di Sion"

Which could be literally translated as follows (bold are by me):

"I refuse the conspiracy theory, which is a smart and sometimes sincere contrafaction of reality caused by the fear of that (reality).

He also says:

"Ricordando quanto «aperta» sia la società americana [...] mi sembra improbabile anzi impossibile che l’11 settembre sia stato frutto di un complotto americano"

"Rememering how is "open" american society, I think is very unlikely, I may say impossible, that 9/11 was an inside job".

So, as you can see, Cossiga isn't a CT, but just a man with a strange sense of humour.

After this introduction, I think is time to translate the interview you are talking about in this topic.
Bolds are by me

"As I've been told, tomorrow or the day after tomorrow (interview appeared on 30 november 07) the most important chain of newspaper of our country should give the proof, with an exceptional scoop, that the video (which in reality is an audio tape, NdR) in which appear Osama, leader of "the great and powerful movement of islamic revenge Al Quaeda" - God bless him! - and in which are formulated threats to our ex president Berlusconi, is nothing more than a fake realized inside Mediaset studios (the huge television group owned by Berlusconi) in Milan and sent to arabic television Al Jazeera.

The trap was organized to create solidarity for Berlusconi, which is having lot of problem related for the tangle between RAI and Mediaset. From sources near to Palazzo Chigi, the nevralgic center of italian intelligence, we know that the video is fake because Osama admits that he was the mind behind the attacks against the twin towers, while all the democratic parties in Europe and USA know very well that the attack was organised by CIA and Mossad, whit the help of sionistic world, just to accuse arab countries and induce occident to intervein both in Iraq and Afghanistan. This is why nobody in parlament gave solidarity to Berlusconi, which is the author of the fake video".


Pape

[Firestone]

Thanks, Pape, and welcome!

Here (http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cmsSezioni/11settembre2001/200609articoli/10111girata.asp#)'s the link to the La Stampa article.

Once again, Prison Planet has shown what it is worth: absolutely nothing!

[CptColumbo]

Gracias merci danke arrigatto Pape. Welcome to the forum.

[BigAl]

Cossiga has also been prime minister of Italy.

Of course, as has been pointed out before, it doesn't really matter.



Here's an article written by Cossiga in 2006. Someone tells me he states clearly that he doesn't believe in "inside job".

http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cmsSezioni/11settembre2001/200609articoli/10111girata.asp#

[Firestone]

Here's an article written by Cossiga in 2006. Someone tells me he states clearly that he doesn't believe in "inside job".

http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cmsSezioni/11settembre2001/200609articoli/10111girata.asp#Absolutely.

He rejects the conspiracy theories about 9/11 in that article (and of course still does).

However, there is a small consolation for truthers.

From the linked article:
TRA qualche giorno ricorre l'anniversario dell'attentato alle Torri gemelle e al Pentagono da parte dei terroristi del potente movimento di «Rivincita islamica» Al Qaeda e della caduta di un terzo aereo kamikaze (destinato a impattare contro la Casa Bianca) forse per opera dei terroristi che così reagirono all'insurrezione dei passeggeri, o molto più probabilmente per l’abbattimento da parte di aerei militari per ordine del Presidente degli Stati Uniti ...
This means (more or less):"In a few days will occur the anniversary of the attack on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon by the terrorists of the powerful Islamic movement Al Qaeda, and of the crash of a third kamikaze plane (destined to strike the White House), maybe caused by the terrorists who reacted to a revolt by the passengers, or, more probably, caused by the shootdown by the US Air Force, on the orders of the president of the US ..."

So Cossiga doesn't believe in all of the standard version of events.
However, he clearly doesn't believe in an inside-job, nor in a Zionist plot.

The guys at Prison Planet are simply too stupid and ignorant of Italian politics to understand the sarcasm in his recent Corriere della Sera statement.

[alexg]

Could someone sum up the Cossiga situation at present? I'm still seeing twoofers state confidently that he's on record that 911 was an inside job and now they have this second quote: ( I simply pasted the quote from a truther post at another board)

"From environments near Palazzo Chigi, the focal direction of Italian intelligence, it should be noted that non-authenticity of the video has witnessed by the fact that Osama Bin Laden in it 'confesses' that Al Qaeda would have been the author dell'attentato 11 September to the two towers in New York, while all those Democrats of America and Europe, with those at the forefront of the Italian centre, now know well that the disastrous attack was planned and carried out by the American CIA and the Mossad with the help of the world to put under Zionist accused the Arab countries in order to induce the Western powers to intervene both in Iraq and in Afghanistan.

Link to the newspaper article:

http://www.corriere.it/politica/07_novembre_30/osama_berlusconi_cossig a_27f4ccee-9f55-11dc-8807-0003ba99c53b.shtml (http://www.corriere.it/politica/07_novembre_30/osama_berlusconi_cossiga_27f4ccee-9f55-11dc-8807-0003ba99c53b.shtml)

Original quote in Italian:

«Da ambienti vicini a Palazzo Chigi, centro nevralgico di direzione dell'intelligence italiana, si fa notare che la non autenticità del video è testimoniata dal fatto che Osama Bin Laden in esso 'confessa' che Al Qaeda sarebbe stato l'autore dell'attentato dell'11 settembre alle due torri in New York, mentre tutti gli ambienti democratici d'America e d'Europa, con in prima linea quelli del centrosinistra italiano, sanno ormai bene che il disastroso attentato è stato pianificato e realizzato dalla Cia americana e dal Mossad con l'aiuto del mondo sionista per mettere sotto accusa i Paesi arabi e per indurre le potenze occidentali ad intervenire sia in Iraq sia in Afghanistan.

I take it he is likely being facetious here but I must admit his meaning is simply unclear to me. I'd love to be able to shut up some truthers about this with something more definitive.

[Firestone]

Could someone sum up the Cossiga situation at present? I'm still seeing twoofers state confidently that he's on record that 911 was an inside job and now they have this second quote: ( I simply pasted the quote from a truther post at another board)



I take it he is likely being facetious here but I must admit his meaning is simply unclear to me. I'd love to be able to shut up some truthers about this with something more definitive.Saddly, you can't convince truthers with something more definitive, because it requires the truthers biggest ennemy: context.

As you can read in the posts above, Cossiga has clearly written in the past that he doesn't buy the 9/11-CT.
He has also been very critical in the past about the Left's assumed complacency toward Islamists.

In the Corriere della Sera statement, he doesn't say he believes in the inside-job theory.
He "quotes" an article that was supposed to appear one or two days later that contains the claim. Of course that article never appeared (it only existed in Cossiga's facetious mind).
That "article" also was supposed to prove that Berlusconi faked the latest Bin Laden-tape.

Some two weeks after the Corriere della Sera-article appeared, there was some (unrelated) incident between Cossiga and a right-wing senator, Antonio Del Pennino, who had some harsh words against Cossiga.
Guess who jumped to Cossiga's defense? None other than Berlusconi, who said: "... sono vicino al Presidente Cossiga con l'affetto e con la stima di sempre." That translates to: " ... I am close to Cossiga for whom I always have affection and respect."
Would you say that about someone who accused you days earlier to have faked the Bin Laden video? :)

(Source (http://www.corriere.it/politica/07_dicembre_11/cossiga_matrimonio_scuse_berlusconi_c19ee67a-a7fe-11dc-9708-0003ba99c53b.shtml) for this incident.)

So, the context makes it clear that Cossiga was indeed facetious. Everybody understands it, certainly in Italy.

But you won't convince truthers. They will take the quote out of context, and will do this for years to come.

Business as usual ...

[Pape]

So, the context makes it clear that Cossiga was indeed facetious. Everybody understands it, certainly in Italy.


Not everyone, just people with an IQ of at least 2 digits. CTers, even in Italy, think he's serious ;-)

Pape

[Max Photon]

The Italians did it?

[Pardalis]

Shut up, Max Photon.

[alexg]

Not everyone, just people with an IQ of at least 2 digits. CTers, even in Italy, think he's serious ;-)

Pape
Well Pape you are just going to have to go visit the man himself and get the real story.

Seriously, has anyone approached him for clarification, or is the sarcasm so obvious that no serious journalist gave it a second thought? It would at least be nice to point the truthers around here to something that might shut them up about this, something, anything.

[Max Photon]

Shut up, Max Photon.



More creative would have been...

Dim Max Photon

or...

Minimize it, Max


By the way, looking at the gurgle above your avatar - are you aware that penultimate means

second to last?

[peteweaver]

[slight dig in the ribs]Max, seeing as you 'know' so much about it, how are we to know, that you were not responsible ? :P [/slight dig in the ribs]

[Pardalis]

More creative would have been...

Dim Max Photon

or...

Minimize it, Max


By the way, looking at the gurgle above your avatar - are you aware that penultimate means

second to last?

Still referring to yourself in the third person?

[Pape]

Well Pape you are just going to have to go visit the man himself and get the real story.

Seriously, has anyone approached him for clarification, or is the sarcasm so obvious that no serious journalist gave it a second thought? It would at least be nice to point the truthers around here to something that might shut them up about this, something, anything.

For an italian person is obvious. In fact, not a single newspaper in Italy (or in the world) took him for serious. With the exception of single digit IQ CTers ^_^

Pape

[Max Photon]

Still referring to yourself in the third person?


Oui.