List some great things about America

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Not to get into politics at all but since the United States has a bit of an image problem right now, I'd like a list to make me feel good about being an American again.

I'd like us to put together a list of the greatest American accomplishments or simply things you love about America. Feel free to discuss why something should or shouldn't be on the list but please take all attacks into another thread, this isn't the place for them.

I'll start:

1) First modern representative democracy in the world
1) a) Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of assemby, right to a fair trial

2) The invention of the lightbulb

3) The invention of the plane

4) The first recording devices, the technology of motion pictures
4) a) The first film industry

5) Pioneering of the Internet

6) The invention of jazz, rock and roll, the blues, soul, hip hop and country music- all uniquely American music genres

7) The invention of basketball, football and baseball

[Shalamar]

Basketball, While invented in the US, was in fact, created by a Canadian. :)

[Ryokan]

American style pizza.

Cherry pies.

:)

[corplinx]

The Three Stooges

[quixotecoyote]

I'm pretty sure corn dogs are an American invention. I have been craving a corn dog for three days now. That and gyro's. I know where to get a gyro, but I'll have to go to the grocery store to get a corn dog.

[The Man]

Freedom

[quixotecoyote]

Freedom is nice, but if I was really into freedom there's better places for it. Me, I'm too attached to my fiancee who's not too concerned about it.

[Zep]

Not to get into politics at all but since the United States has a bit of an image problem right now, I'd like a list to make me feel good about being an American again.

I'd like us to put together a list of the greatest American accomplishments or simply things you love about America. Feel free to discuss why something should or shouldn't be on the list but please take all attacks into another thread, this isn't the place for them.

I'll start:

1) First modern representative democracy in the world
1) a) Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of assemby, right to a fair trial

2) The invention of the lightbulb

3) The invention of the plane

4) The first recording devices, the technology of motion pictures
4) a) The first film industry

5) Pioneering of the Internet

6) The invention of jazz, rock and roll, the blues, soul, hip hop and country music- all uniquely American music genres

7) The invention of basketball, football and baseballAnd you put this in politics?

1) I suspect this isn't the case. I'll nominate the Greeks for this, but I could be wrong. Any historians want to jump on this?

2) Define "invent". Edison was the first to make a practical version that was saleable (http://invsee.asu.edu/Modules/lightbulb/meathist2.htm).

3) Nope! More research needed!

4) Again, nope! E.g. Among others, Australia had a film industry and even feature-length films before the US did! However the US film industry rapidly became the largest and most productive.

5) Define "Internet". Certainly there has been networking of computers starting in the 1950's but they were mostly proprietary setups. So "networking" is hardly new, nor US-originated paticularly. The push for common standards in the 70's led to the Internet as we know it today, and that was US-originated. But it was not an "invention", just an adaption of existing technologies.

6) As far as I know, this is so. And a good thing too! Although isn't blues based on Negro spirituals? Music historians?

7) Basketball is Canadian, American football is derived from British rugby, and baseball from a number of bat-and-ball games from Europe. However the current versions of these games are indeed totally USian!

[Ratatoskr]

Great things (IMO) about America:

The car (designs) of the 50s and 60s.

Rock n' Roll (From Elvis to Metallica)

NASA

[69dodge]

Great things (IMO) about America:

The car (designs) of the 50s and 60s.


:)

[tomwaits]

6) As far as I know, this is so. And a good thing too! Although isn't blues based on Negro spirituals? Music historians?


Last time I checked, black people are americans too. Yes, they originally came from Africa, but every american has ties from elsewhere (except for native americans).

[Wolfman]

The Bill of Rights. One of the greatest documents to be penned by human hand.

Sadly, the US gov't and leadership is showing a great deal of disregard for the principles enshrined in the Bill of Rights, particularly with the current administration's philosophy that those rights apply only to American citizens, but can be disregarded for anyone else.

But the Bill of Rights itself very much deserves recognition as one of America's greatest contributions to the world.

[timhau]

And you put this in politics?

1) I suspect this isn't the case. I'll nominate the Greeks for this, but I could be wrong. Any historians want to jump on this?


I'm not a historian, but she did say modern. The history of the modern nation of Greece doesn't start until about 1830, and they started out as a fairly authoritarian monarchy, if my memory serves.

My favorite thing about America:

New York City.

[plindboe]

1) Countless contributions to science
2) The Simpsons, Seinfeld, South Park

(Not necessarily in that order)

[H3LL]

1) It's not in Europe.

2) Cheap dollars.

.

[Georg]

While I´m not happy with parts of the current (foreign) politics of the U.S., as a German I will always be thankful for their part in bringing down the Hitler regime.

[UnrepentantSinner]

I'd like us to put together a list of the greatest American accomplishments or simply things you love about America. Feel free to discuss why something should or shouldn't be on the list but please take all attacks into another thread, this isn't the place for them.

- Americana
- Being both the Arsenal and Breadbasket of democracy during WWII.
- Project Apollo
- Frank Lloyd Wright and I.M. Pei
- The Simpsons

1) First modern representative democracy in the world

This might be getting down to semantics, but, while the house of commons is part of a constitutional monarchy, it's still district representatives serving as votes in a body. That's the very definition of a modern representative democracy right?

6) As far as I know, this is so. And a good thing too! Although isn't blues based on Negro spirituals? Music historians?

Most modern popular music in the U.S. comes from black roots, but near the beginning there was a lot of cross pollenation and even the slave spirituals themselves came out of the influence of Christianity on Muslim or animistic Africans.

[JoeEllison]

Steam beer.
Bruce Springsteen.

[pipelineaudio]

The electric guitar

Multitrack recording

Chuck Berry

[Undesired Walrus]

7) The invention of basketball, football and baseball

I hope you are joking.

[lionking]

Jref

[Cleon]

Freedom

Freedom's just another words for nothing left to lose.

[cloudshipsrule]

We Landed on the Moon.
The money we give to aid Africa and other nations.
Steve Martin.

[timhau]

Freedom's just another words for nothing left to lose.

I thought it's just some people talkin'.

[Cainkane1]

American microbreweries. They saved the american palate from the slop called Budweiser and other american macrobrewed dishwater.

[cloudshipsrule]

You betta' not go dissin' Olympia, fool!

[technoextreme]

Sadly, the US gov't and leadership is showing a great deal of disregard for the principles enshrined in the Bill of Rights, particularly with the current administration's philosophy that those rights apply only to American citizens, but can be disregarded for anyone else.

Go pick up a history book and read it. If you still complain about disregard for the Bill of Rights I will come over and whack you over the head with the history book.

[Wolfman]

Go pick up a history book and read it. If you still complain about disregard for the Bill of Rights I will come over and whack you over the head with the history book.Sorry...not quite getting your point here...

...are you arguing that there has been no such disregard, or that such disregard is justified in a historical context?

...or that the disregard is nothing new, and has been going on for a long time?

If the former, I have no idea what kind of history you are referring to, but I suspect it is the kind approved by people who like wearing white sheets over their heads and burning crosses.

If the latter, I'd generally agree. But the purpose of this thread is not to discuss the things we don't like.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

While I´m not happy with parts of the current (foreign) politics of the U.S., as a German I will always be thankful for their part in bringing down the Hitler regime.

I agree. :) I'm glad that you're the one who said it and not me. :o

Some others from me:

The pioneering of animation, the development of sound and colored film, the genres of film noir, movie musicals and the Western (allthough there was alot of cross pollination with France with film noir and with Japan with the Western- samurai movies were inspired Westerns and inspired Westerns)

The development of radio, TV and the telephone

The enormous natural wonders in this land of ours- although I'm not sure we can take credit for that. The Grand Canyon, Niagara Falls, the Black Hills, the Rockies, the Badlands, the spacious skies, amber waves of grain and purple mountain majesties, above the fruited plain.

The world's second largest or even first largest Jewish population (the sources I checked give very varying numbers)

Jeans (all denim clothing, matter of fact) and sneakers. Bandanas, too.

White out- another great invention of ours.

[Fnord]

Me.

My teddy bear named "Muhammed the Prophet."

My potted ficus named "Muhammed the Prophet."

My chamber pot named "Muhammed the Prophet."

The fact that I can name anyone or anything 'Muhammed the Prophet' (or Jesus, or Buddha ...) and not risk being arrested, flogged, sodomized, or beheaded.

[Georg]

I agree. :)

I'm glad that you're the one who said it and not me. :o

What would have been wrong if you had mentioned it? :confused:

[Darth Rotor]

Bruce Springsteen.

The electric guitar

Multitrack recording

Chuck Berry
If I may applaud and add:

ZZ Top

BB King

The Frisbee

DR

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

What would have been wrong if you had mentioned it? :confused:

You might not have noticed but "we won World War Two!", "we defeated Hitler!" and "we saved you in World War Two!" has become overused recently.

Not that rednecks constantly saying it makes it any less true...but it's really nice to hear YOU say that.

[richardm]

The enormous natural wonders in this land of ours- although I'm not sure we can take credit for that.

Why not? You take credit for everything else.

:duck:

;)


Edit to contribute: The Moon landings and the general American contribution to aerospace are amazing.
And the transistor has transformed all our lives.

[bluess]

Ray Harryhausen

Knowing that a nice Hindu immigrant can marry a big New Jerseyian and no body kicks up a fuss.

Being able to choose whether or not to wear a burqa.

Being able to choose whether or not I have to eat as a vegetarian.

Having friends from all ethnic and religious groups.

Being able to argue politics and religion with folks without ensuing violence.

My '95 T-Bird

Southern Rock

Twinkies and HoHos.

Chocolate dipped cheesecake

Old Bay spice on steamed blue crabs

Scooby Doo

[technoextreme]

...or that the disregard is nothing new, and has been going on for a long time?

If the former, I have no idea what kind of history you are referring to, but I suspect it is the kind approved by people who like wearing white sheets over their heads and burning crosses.

Nope. George Bush and his cronies pale in comparison to a significant part of the United States history. People who yearn for the gold old days have never read a history book.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

My '95 T-Bird



All accessible automobiles, matter of fact. We might not have invented the first car, but we did find the way to produce cars on a mass scale.

[UnrepentantSinner]

What would have been wrong if you had mentioned it? :confused:

You might not have noticed but "we won World War Two!", "we defeated Hitler!" and "we saved you in World War Two!" has become overused recently.

Not that rednecks constantly saying it makes it any less true...but it's really nice to hear YOU say that.

It didn't get BorBed to the other thread, but I think I subtly noted that the U.S. didn't win WWII alone, but our contribution was more than the 101st Airborne and 3rd Armored. We were the arsenal and breadbasket of democracy, but it was the willing sacrifice of millions of Soviets, hundreds of thousands of Greek and Balkan partisans, Free Frech, Free Poles, Free Norwegiens, and Brits and Canadians from across the Empire who helped not so much defeat Germany per se (just as in the Pacific we didn't defeat Japan per se), but to defeat the forces of totalitarianism and create one of the most stable and democratic states in Europe.

Ray Harryhausen

Knowing that a nice Hindu immigrant can marry a big New Jerseyian and no body kicks up a fuss.

Bluess the rest of your list is great but I wanted to comment on these two.

Ray Harryhausen is awesome and I'm glad you picked him out of the myriad contributors to film from the U.S. And while your second comment might not apply with time frame or location, it generally is true. Karen Chen and Michael O'Hanlan or Joe Liebgott and Oliva N'dema might raise an eyebrow or two in the wedding party, but most people reading the society pages will be more interested in where the honeymoon will be.

[bluess]

What is life without stop-motion photography and silly sci-fi?

I married 21 years ago. This is long enough ago for me to be aware that the U.S. made great strides in racial equality, and the hold ups were more on my culture's end.

[Ivor the Engineer]

Making English the language everyone wants to learn (even if you can't spell sceptic).

[Oliver]

List some great things about Americal


What a Question... Ron Paul - of course! :)

1) First modern representative democracy in the world
1) a) Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of assemby, right to a fair trial


Not quite true. The Greeks did it 2517 years ago... meaning the first
major δημοκρατία (Democracy) and thus, Freedom of [Fill in the blank].

[Fnord]

Not quite true. The Greeks did it 2517 years ago... meaning the first
major δημοκρατία (Democracy) and thus, Freedom of [Fill in the blank].


The Greek democracy did not apply to everyone -- slaves were exempt from the democratic process, as were resident aliens, women, and people who had not paid their taxes.

Participation in the greek democratic process was limited to males 18 years or older who had completed their military training. So much for equal rights. It is also more correctly called Athenian Democracy.

[uruk]

Star Trek

Futurama

Anybody with a good idea and little hard work can become stinking bloody rich and treated like royalty reguardless of where they came from.

That a bodybuilder with marginaly adequate acting ability from Austria can become a marginaly adequate govenor.

[sackett]

I hesitate to call scientific achievements the property of any particular nation. For mucho many years I've dealt in research proposals originating in academia, and mucho many times I've been struck by the intercontinental nature of the names on the cover pages: absolutely every national and ethnic flavor you care to name is represented. And the bibliography of even a small and limited proposal will cite publications from all over the world, often collaborations between people from countries you've hardly heard of.

Thus radio, or at least wireless, was certainly invented in America -- by a Serb, Nikola Tesla.

Who once said, "I was an American before I even knew what it was!" That's a happy-spirited endorsement. Okay then, Uncle Sam gets credit for radio!

[Davidlpf]

It is located to the south of me.

[gtc]

The Greek democracy did not apply to everyone -- slaves were exempt from the democratic process, as were resident aliens, women, and people who had not paid their taxes.

Participation in the greek democratic process was limited to males 18 years or older who had completed their military training. So much for equal rights. It is also more correctly called Athenian Democracy.

True. And Oliver did overlook the key word modern.

However, the American democratic process was also limited at first. I am not sure that they can claim to be the first nation to have universal suffrage.

My list of great American things:
Fudruckers Burgers
Philly Cheesesteak
Cheeseheads
French Fries.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

America is the closest man has come to utopia thus far in history.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

The Greek democracy did not apply to everyone -- slaves were exempt from the democratic process, as were resident aliens, women, and people who had not paid their taxes.

Iceland is the world’s oldest democracy. Its parliament (Althingi) was founded about 1,000 years ago.

Participation in the greek democratic process was limited to males 18 years or older who had completed their military training. So much for equal rights. It is also more correctly called Athenian Democracy.

And women did not get the right to vote in the USA until August 26, 1920.

Best thing of all about America? Americans. :cool:

[UnrepentantSinner]

The triumvarate of American "ethnic" foods - Chinese, TexMex and Italian.
Bringing the American Bison back from the brink of extinction.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

America is the closest man has come to utopia thus far in history.

LOL, I'm going to go with a "no" to that one. There are plenty of other countries not involved in foreign wars, without a health care crisis, without the huge and growing gap between rich and poor, without negative savings rates, without electoral colleges, not consuming a disproportionate amount of resources and producing a disproportionate amount of pollution, without the high rates of murder, etc. etc.

My great things about America:

1) Bill of Rights

2) GI Bill

3) Stopping Nazis

4) Mac

5) Lots of Universities (albeit expensive ones)

6) Being able to leave

[UnrepentantSinner]

Kitchy motels and roadside attractions.
Diners.
Rednecks, Coonasses, Down Easters and Hillbillies,

[pipelineaudio]

BMX

Skateboards

Freestyle

Skim Boarding (at least in saleable form)

Jose Yanez

[erlando]

Well, isn't this a w*nkfest...? ;)

Best thing about America..? It's not here.. :p

With that said, some of the greatest achievements of America must be:

- Finally intervening in WW2 resulting in defeat for the axis. As a dane and european I appreciate that. One question though.. What kept you so long?
- Putting Man on the moon. In my mind this is one of the greatest achievements of mankind. And credit undoubtedly goes to America for that. Well done.
- Various technological progress

Unfortunately right now the "not"-list is a lot longer than the "hot"-list. A lot of it has to do with that president of yours.. Please find someone better for the job.. :)

[Georg]

You might not have noticed but "we won World War Two!", "we defeated Hitler!" and "we saved you in World War Two!" has become overused recently.


You are right, I did not notice that.

Not that rednecks constantly saying it makes it any less true...but it's really nice to hear YOU say that.


"YOU" as in "YOU as a German" or "YOU" as in "YOU, Georg, since I did not expect that from you"?
If you mean the former, I´d have to say that every German with just a tiny bit of knowledge of history should take (up?) that stance, so, no compliment necessary. :)
If you mean the latter, I´d ask: Why? :confused:

As long as you do not comment further, I´ll go with the former, it just feels better..........

It didn't get BorBed to the other thread, but I think I subtly noted that the U.S. didn't win WWII alone, but our contribution was more than the 101st Airborne and 3rd Armored. We were the arsenal and breadbasket of democracy, but it was the willing sacrifice of millions of Soviets, hundreds of thousands of Greek and Balkan partisans, Free Frech, Free Poles, Free Norwegiens, and Brits and Canadians from across the Empire who helped not so much defeat Germany per se (just as in the Pacific we didn't defeat Japan per se), but to defeat the forces of totalitarianism and create one of the most stable and democratic states in Europe.



That´s why I wrote

I will always be thankful for their part in bringing down the Hitler regime.


Oh, and another one: electric guitars have been listed before, but I think my 1981 Hamer "vector" deserves an extra mention.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Unfortunately right now the "not"-list is a lot longer than the "hot"-list. A lot of it has to do with that president of yours.. Please find someone better for the job.. :)

Here you go sport (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=100432). Knock yourself out, but one heads up, even the least jinoistic American members might reply.

That´s why I wrote

Point taken. :)

[erlando]

Here you go sport (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=100432). Knock yourself out, but one heads up, even the least jinoistic American members might reply.

I like it better in this thread thank you. :) That's why I didn't post any negative things.

[Oliver]

LOL, I'm going to go with a "no" to that one. There are plenty of other countries not involved in foreign wars, without a health care crisis, without the huge and growing gap between rich and poor, without negative savings rates, without electoral colleges, not consuming a disproportionate amount of resources and producing a disproportionate amount of pollution, without the high rates of murder, etc. etc.

My great things about America:

1) Bill of Rights

2) GI Bill

3) Stopping Nazis

4) Mac

5) Lots of Universities (albeit expensive ones)

6) Being able to leave


1. The US-"Bill of Rights" came from the Britain's
2. Huh?
3. The Russian Territory stopped the Nazis
4. True :D
5. Don't think that's accurate according to Universities per capita
6. Was and is allowed in most countries

[Georg]

3. The Russian Territory stopped the Nazis


So, America didn´t do anything to stop the Nazis?
Are you serious?

[chocolatepossum]

The Beach Boys.

Hour long, preposterously plotted but highly entertaining glossy drama series such as Lost, Heroes and 24 (please no-one make a comment about the 2nd series of heroes. I haven't seen it yet!) Our home grown attempts at that stuff are pitiful.

Putting loads of episodes in a series/season.

[Damien Evans]

America is the closest man has come to utopia thus far in history.

You mean Australia. Honest mistake I'm sure.:)

[Halcyon Dayz]

The Greek democracy did not apply to everyone --

By that definition there are no democracies.

The first country to introduce general suffrage was New Zealand in 1893.
Maoris (males) already had the vote.

[Oliver]

So, America didn´t do anything to stop the Nazis?
Are you serious?


No, that's not what I said. I simply said it wasn't America defeating
the Nazis, it was the war on eastern borders that broke the Nazis
neck while the Normandy wasn't much protected. Probably a so called
"strategical self-defeat".

[Cainkane1]

So, America didn´t do anything to stop the Nazis?
Are you serious?


America did plenty to stop the Nazis but we couldn't have done it without Russia, and Britain fighting alongside us. The nazis were defeated by sheer weight of numbers and a flood of equipment from all three countries. I should also make mention of the many underground anti nazi fighters in the defeated countries as well.

[D'rok]

Firefly.

Already been said, but thanks again for Blues and Jazz! Seriously.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

LOL, I'm going to go with a "no" to that one. There are plenty of other countries not involved in foreign wars, without a health care crisis, without the huge and growing gap between rich and poor, without negative savings rates, without electoral colleges, not consuming a disproportionate amount of resources and producing a disproportionate amount of pollution, without the high rates of murder, etc. etc.

Why do you hate America?;)

[Georg]

No, that's not what I said. I simply said it wasn't America defeating
the Nazis, it was the war on eastern borders that broke the Nazis
neck while the Normandy wasn't much protected. Probably a so called
"strategical self-defeat".

That was the sentence you commented on:

3) Stopping Nazis

your reply was:

3. The Russian Territory stopped the Nazis

which implies that America had no part in stopping them. If you´d said it was not the Americans alone, then you would have had a point.

America did plenty to stop the Nazis but we couldn't have done it without Russia, and Britain fighting alongside us. The nazis were defeated by sheer weight of numbers and a flood of equipment from all three countries. I should also make mention of the many underground anti nazi fighters in the defeated countries as well.

No disagreement here. Oliver just sounded as usual, which means "not accepting the U.S. did some good things as well", which was, for me, the intent of his post. Maybe I´m interpreting it a bit too much, but that´s difficult to avoid if you read some dozens of his anti American posts.

[cloudshipsrule]

LOL, I'm going to go with a "no" to that one. There are plenty of other countries not involved in foreign wars, without a health care crisis, without the huge and growing gap between rich and poor, without negative savings rates, without electoral colleges, not consuming a disproportionate amount of resources and producing a disproportionate amount of pollution, without the high rates of murder, etc. etc.

You do realize that the 'poor' in America have more wealth than the middle class of most other countries, right?

Enjoy your utopia! Oh, by the way, what's your tax rate?

[MG1962]

Science Fiction

[Dancing David]

The Bill of Rights. One of the greatest documents to be penned by human hand.

Sadly, the US gov't and leadership is showing a great deal of disregard for the principles enshrined in the Bill of Rights, particularly with the current administration's philosophy that those rights apply only to American citizens, but can be disregarded for anyone else.

But the Bill of Rights itself very much deserves recognition as one of America's greatest contributions to the world.

and habeus corpus and right to trial in public.

[D'rok]

and habeus corpus and right to trial in public.

Those are great things about America, but they aren't American in origin.

[Dancing David]

You do realize that the 'poor' in America have more wealth than the middle class of most other countries, right?

Enjoy your utopia! Oh, by the way, what's your tax rate?

What is that supposed to mean, another form of hamme's 'blacks should be glad they were enslaved and brought brought here to america'.

If you are exposed to violence, humiliation and suffering a TV doesn't make a huge difference.

[Dancing David]

Those are great things about America, but they aren't American in origin.

True, I just thought it was a what is good about the US I should have read the OP more carefully), the availability of fresh water is probably the greatest boon of all.

[cloudshipsrule]

David,

You do realize that I had replied to Tsukasa Buddha's post when I wrote that, correct? Did you read what he wrote? What I wrote will make perfect sense if you go back and read his post.

[cloudshipsrule]

If you are exposed to violence, humiliation and suffering a TV doesn't make a huge difference.

So most American's are exposed to these things this daily?

[Mrs. Hmmphries]

Road trips...especially the kind where you drive out into the middle of nowhere to visit things like "The world's biggest ball of twine" or "The largest cross in the western hemisphere".

[Beerina]

Participation in the greek democratic process was limited to males 18 years or older who had completed their military training. So much for equal rights. It is also more correctly called Athenian Democracy.

Heinlein looked favorably on only allowing those who participated in the military to have the vote. If you weren't willing to defend freedom, you had no right to have a say in how the government went about its business as part of exercising that freedom. Of course, the job was open to anyone, you just had to join voluntarily and serve your two years or whatever.

[Beerina]

My list of great American things:
Fudruckers Burgers

Does not compute!

Like most premium burger joints (q.v. Red Robbins), they don't know how to cook a burger, cooking it on high heat so the outside starts getting burned.

Try "Miller's Bar & Grill" in Dearborn, MI, on Michigan Avenue, for the best burger you'll ever eat. They're more slowly cooked.

[D'rok]

Heinlein looked favorably on only allowing those who participated in the military to have the vote. If you weren't willing to defend freedom, you had no right to have a say in how the government went about its business as part of exercising that freedom. Of course, the job was open to anyone, you just had to join voluntarily and serve your two years or whatever.

And Paul Verhoeven mercilessly satirized that bit of fascism in the film version.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Road trips...especially the kind where you drive out into the middle of nowhere to visit things like "The world's biggest ball of twine" or "The largest cross in the western hemisphere".

I wish I'd expounded further with examples, but that was what I was alluding to in my post back on page 1.
- Americana

Herpitariums. Mystery Spots. Museum of this or that. Crazy, stupid, yet ultimately endearing "please stop here and spend money" stuff. One of my favorites is, ironically, in Canada - the Big Nickel (and cent and a number of other 30 foot coins) near Sudbury, OT.

[Pardalis]

Sports Illustrated swimsuit issues

[bluess]

They're gone now, but Stukey's. How I longed for an Indian chief headdress and rubber tomahawk. However, much to my mom's delight, the pecan logs are still made.

[Beerina]

LOL, I'm going to go with a "no" to that one. There are plenty of other countries not involved in foreign wars

Fair enough

without a health care crisis

If you neglect that socialized medicine may be leaving people worse off in the long run, as reduced profit margin slows the rate of development of medical technology. As it does for every other arena. As demonstrated by hundreds of "economic experiments" last century.

without the huge and growing gap between rich and poor

The increase in quality of life for the average person is based on increases in productivity. Stomping "the rich" slows or halts (or reverses) this, benefitting no one.

Like growing medical costs due to more inventions a thriving economy produces, a "growing gap" is a natural and welcome development. It is a cheap rhetorical ploy.

without negative savings rates

Savings are good only insofar as they are used for investments, by banks, if nothing else. If there's nothing good to invest in locally, such that the banks invest in the US or Asia, is there anything to brag about?

without electoral colleges

A leftover from pre-flight, indeed pre-train days. You know, when almost all other countries were dictatorships?

not consuming a disproportionate amount of resources and producing a disproportionate amount of pollution

That some people have managed to figure out how to pick themselves up and dust themselves means what? Is the person who goes out and makes a coat out of some cow leather consuming a disproportionate amount of leather since...what? Since lazier people can't do that due to their poorer economics?

If the US invented Mr. Fusion devices, son of a bitch would we really be consuming a disproportionate amount of energy!

That other dirt-grubbers exist in countries that don't have their acts together, freedom-and-economics-wise, so what?

without the high rates of murder, etc. etc.

...and without the racial tensions due to remnants of slavery.

Slaves which, by the way, were largely used to produce cotton for England and France to buy, which were happy to buy it, even as they looked down their noses at owning slaves.



Anyway, my great things about Europe:

- Better food. In the south, anyway, though there's something to be said for sausages and mustard in a beer garden or an English pub.

- Virtually non-existent hangups about nudity and sexuality. Most women don't even own a bikini top, with many declared nude beaches and parks, or pretty much any beach if you wanna walk about half a mile away from the crowded areas.

- Truly historical buildings and other things going back many hundreds, to several thousand years. Compare to "100" years old is historical in the US. Cool, a dance club in an old Roman catacomb.

- Can get from Amsterdam to Paris in about the time it takes for my family to "go up north", which is in the same state. (Or almost London-to-Paris, assuming you don't have to wait too long at the Chunnel.)



My bad things about Europe:

- "No bikini top owning" includes 270-lb. septuagenarians.

[Senex]

The greatest thing about America is its Constitution. I don't believe in a divinity but it was improbable we would win our revolution and come up with our constitution at that point in time. Brilliant people who didn't act in their own self interest were in power. That never happens and that is why America is great.

[AgeGap]

The good: The Hubble Space Telescope looking across billions of light years into the universe's distant past. The brave astronauts who risk their lives to maintain it.
The bad: Dumb as a mule red necks who think the universe is a 8,000 years old but bask in the reflected glory of NASA.

I live in the UK but will admit the US has some great thinkers.

[cloudshipsrule]

The bad: Dumb as a mule red necks who think the universe is a 8,000 years old but bask in the reflected glory of NASA.

You mean, it's less than that?? :eek:

[latent aaaack]

We're the only country in the world with "tornado alley." In other countries the closest you can get to tornado chasing is making those lame soda bottle water funnels and then having a friend run away with it while you try to chase him; a completely pitiful spectacle the huddled masses overseas must endure every week I heard.

[Ranb]

The great outdoors. Airlines that take me to almost anywhere I want to go in the world. People of so many ethnic backgrounds to meet/experience. The Bill of Rights; as long as it lasts anyway.

Ranb

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

- Finally intervening in WW2 resulting in defeat for the axis. As a dane and european I appreciate that. One question though.. What kept you so long?

...

Unfortunately right now the "not"-list is a lot longer than the "hot"-list. A lot of it has to do with that president of yours.. Please find someone better for the job.. :)

And thank you, too.

We didn't want to go to to war and enspecially not against a country that hadn't attacked us :). Yes, that's how things were done back then.

The President had to ask Congress to declare war, too- and on true information. :D

Will do.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

"YOU" as in "YOU as a German" or "YOU" as in "YOU, Georg, since I did not expect that from you"?
If you mean the former, I´d have to say that every German with just a tiny bit of knowledge of history should take (up?) that stance, so, no compliment necessary. :)



You as a German, sorry that wasn't clear.

Don't know if Americans can really take credit for this but what about the United Nations? The League of Nations was Woodrow Wilson's pet project and, ok, we know how well that turned out...but the second draft seems to be doing better.

[LibraryLady]

About a month after 9/11/2001, I was walking in to work from the parking lot, and met up with another two librarians. One was (actually is) a Muslim named Susan who wears a chador, the other was (again is) a devout Baptist named Earleen. I'm a Jew. We were chatting and then halfway up the hill, the flag at half staff was visible on the building opposite. Almost involuntarily I said, "I really do love being an American." The other two laughed because they had been on the verge of saying the same thing.

[MG1962]

About a month after 9/11/2001, I was walking in to work from the parking lot, and met up with another two librarians. One was (actually is) a Muslim named Susan who wears a chador, the other was (again is) a devout Baptist named Earleen. I'm a Jew. We were chatting and then halfway up the hill, the flag at half staff was visible on the building opposite. Almost involuntarily I said, "I really do love being an American." The other two laughed because they had been on the verge of saying the same thing.

Me thinks you just killed this thread - Really is there a greater compliment the population can give it's own society?

[Georg]

You as a German, sorry that wasn't clear.


Thanks.

[Ivor the Engineer]

About a month after 9/11/2001, I was walking in to work from the parking lot, and met up with another two librarians. One was (actually is) a Muslim named Susan who wears a chador, the other was (again is) a devout Baptist named Earleen. I'm a Jew. We were chatting and then halfway up the hill, the flag at half staff was visible on the building opposite. Almost involuntarily I said, "I really do love being an American." The other two laughed because they had been on the verge of saying the same thing.

:confused:

Could you explain how the bolded statement has anything to do with the rest of the paragraph?

[UnrepentantSinner]

:confused:

Could you explain how the bolded statement has anything to do with the rest of the paragraph?

LL can speak for herself but what I read in her moving paragraph was that an American Muslim, Jewish and Baptist woman standing around talking, being able freely associate and say what they want; and being appreciative of what their flag stands for in those dark days after 9/11 is exactly why Americans love being American.

Maybe this is an example of a "you had to be there" situation. :shrug:

[Kevin_Lowe]

LL can speak for herself but what I read in her moving paragraph was that an American Muslim, Jewish and Baptist woman standing around talking, being able freely associate and say what they want; and being appreciative of what their flag stands for in those dark days after 9/11 is exactly why Americans love being American.

Maybe this is an example of a "you had to be there" situation. :shrug:

If I said "Australia is great because I can have friends who collect stamps and friends who do not collect stamps, and they get along okay", you would probably be a bit confused.

That's more or less how I, and I suspect other Australians and Europeans, respond to the news that people of different faiths get along in the USA.

To get back to the real topic: Pixar. Terminator 2. Aliens 2. Big Trouble in Little China. Many amazing video games. Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keaton. Tori Amos. C. J. Cherryh.

[LibraryLady]

LL can speak for herself but what I read in her moving paragraph was that an American Muslim, Jewish and Baptist woman standing around talking, being able freely associate and say what they want; and being appreciative of what their flag stands for in those dark days after 9/11 is exactly why Americans love being American.

Maybe this is an example of a "you had to be there" situation. :shrug:

That's pretty much it.

[brumsen]

I disagree with almost all Beerina says and I'm surprised that there are no reactions yet.

If you neglect that socialized medicine may be leaving people worse off in the long run, as reduced profit margin slows the rate of development of medical technology.
Please define socialized medicine. Are you suggesting that countries where there is no health system crisis all (or: necessarily) have a system of socialized medicine?
More importantly: is a maximal rate of development of medical technology what we need te be best off in the long run? Would it develop the things that most benefits most people? Hardly self-evident.

The increase in quality of life for the average person is based on increases in productivity. Stomping "the rich" slows or halts (or reverses) this, benefitting no one.

Like growing medical costs due to more inventions a thriving economy produces, a "growing gap" is a natural and welcome development. It is a cheap rhetorical ploy.
The same faulty argument. If the gap between rich and poor is made smaller, this may - despite slower overall increase in productivity - nonetheless be of more benefit to more people. So average quality of life could well increase. (The failure of socialists' workers paradises has hardly shown that "the bigger the gap between rich and poor, the better". Hence, in my formulation above, the word "may". Some gap between rich and poor may be a good thing, for reasons related to what you are thinking.)


Savings are good only insofar as they are used for investments, by banks, if nothing else. If there's nothing good to invest in locally, such that the banks invest in the US or Asia, is there anything to brag about?
Perhaps because that way no financial crises due to credit crunches, weak dollar and the like are inflicted on the rest of the world?


A leftover from pre-flight, indeed pre-train days. You know, when almost all other countries were dictatorships?
The political systems in those countries did, as you implicitly state here, develop over time. So why does this leftover still exist?


That some people have managed to figure out how to pick themselves up and dust themselves means what? Is the person who goes out and makes a coat out of some cow leather consuming a disproportionate amount of leather since...what? Since lazier people can't do that due to their poorer economics?

If the US invented Mr. Fusion devices, son of a bitch would we really be consuming a disproportionate amount of energy!

That other dirt-grubbers exist in countries that don't have their acts together, freedom-and-economics-wise, so what?
Overconsumption of resources means that a high standard of life is attained by externalizing environmental costs. Basically, using resources without paying for them. If product prices do not include the cost of replenishing resources, then basically the bill has to be picked up eventually by others - future generations or inhabitants of other regions. Sustainability and all that.


...and without the racial tensions due to remnants of slavery.

Slaves which, by the way, were largely used to produce cotton for England and France to buy, which were happy to buy it, even as they looked down their noses at owning slaves.
Are the current racial tensions in the US the fault of those who bought products produced by means of slave labour? To some extent perhaps, though I believe it should be noted that nothing in the commercial relations of those times would have obliged US society to deal with segregation issues in the way it has done since slavery was abolished.

ETA: great things about America? Let's see:-
the holiness of gun ownership
the death penalty
torturing of prisoners

[egslim]

1) First modern representative democracy in the world
1) a) Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of assemby, right to a fair trial
The first modern representative democracy part seems wrong.

History of suffrage in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_rights_in_the_United_States):
Landless white men: 1856
Non-white men: 1870 — See: Fifteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution
Women: 1920 — See: Nineteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution
Native Americans: 1924 [1]
Residents of the District of Columbia: 1961 — See: Twenty-third Amendment to the United States Constitution
Adults between 18 and 21: 1971 — See: Twenty-sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution

The Corsican Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasquale_Paoli#Corsican_Republic) was earlier, and they allowed women to vote:
In November 1755 Corsican independence was proclaimed and the Corsican Constitution was created - this was the first constitution written under Enlightenment principles, including the first implementation of female suffrage

I think most of what you list was more a product of its time than something great about the US. By the end of the 18th century enlightenment ideals had gained popularity among the intellectual elites, so any new nation was somewhat likely to incorporate those ideas. I consider the US system a somewhat primitive democracy, because the roles of head of state and head of government are united in the same person (like in the conventional monarchies of that time), even though the two roles require entirely different skillsets. The existence of of congressional districts and arguably the relatively major role of the states probably owes as much to the limited communications technology of that time as to any democratic principle.

Personally I'd be hard pressed to name great things about any country, including my own. It's easy to list good things, but almost none of them are (almost) entirely exclusive to a particular country. Good ideas tend to be emulated and often improved upon quickly.

[UnrepentantSinner]

If I said "Australia is great because I can have friends who collect stamps and friends who do not collect stamps, and they get along okay", you would probably be a bit confused.

That's more or less how I, and I suspect other Australians and Europeans, respond to the news that people of different faiths get along in the USA.

Hobbies and religions aren't analagous though. Also the difference in their religions and the fact that they were friends was only one part of LL's overall anecdote.

That's pretty much it.

I'm glad I summarized it accurately. :)

[Graham Ross]

Disneyland

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Overconsumption of resources means that a high standard of life is attained by externalizing environmental costs. Basically, using resources without paying for them. If product prices do not include the cost of replenishing resources, then basically the bill has to be picked up eventually by others - future generations or inhabitants of other regions. Sustainability and all that.

How long has America been "picking up the bill" for the defense of Europe?

:boxedin:

[LibraryLady]

Hobbies and religions aren't analagous though. Also the difference in their religions and the fact that they were friends was only one part of LL's overall anecdote.



I'm glad I summarized it accurately. :)

My real point is that while I know my co-workers' religions, in this particular case, there was no real reason for me to know it. There are no consequences for me if I hobnob with a Muslim or a Christian, and there are no consequences for me if I hobnob with people of other ethnicities and race. It's not like Northern Ireland or South Africa or the Middle East where the consequences of such associations can be dire. I have friends that range from Atheists to Jehovah's Witnesses. I enjoy that and I love living in a country where that's possible.

We've had a rocky past. We still have a rocky present (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-te.md.mta08dec08,0,3220736.story?coll=bal_tab01_la yout), for that matter, but we are evolving and changing and there are a lot of people working at that evolution.

Forgive me if I'm proud of that. There's a lot wrong with my country, but there's a lot right too.

And I promise to stop using the word, "hobnob." :)

[UnrepentantSinner]

And I promise to stop using the word, "hobnob." :)

I'd hobnob with you any day LL... and your co-workers. :)

[UnrepentantSinner]

How long has America been "picking up the bill" for the defense of Europe?

Since, say 1948? We haven't. It's been more of a "Dutch treat" since the formation of NATO. Do not conflate the presence of U.S. forces in Europe (or Korea) as part of NATO's total defense package with us "picking up the bil."

A piece of me hates that we've drawn down forces in Europe and Asia since the end of the Cold War because travel expands the mind, and the perspective of the individual* and having large amounts of military and dependents in foreign countries did more to make Americans more cosmopolitan than tourism or student exchange programs ever could.

* I'm half-tempted to start a third spin off thread from this one asking how many of those critical of America have actually visited or lived here. Maybe it's my military upbringing, but in this and the "what's not" thread, I find myself threading the needle between the "America can do no wrong" jingoists and the "America is evil" haters who have been poisoned by cartoonish characterizations of America/ns.

[egslim]

There are no consequences for me if I hobnob with a Muslim or a Christian, and there are no consequences for me if I hobnob with people of other ethnicities and race.
The same is true for most of the Western world. So while it's good, it's not exceptional. Maybe it's not even good, but simply to be expected. So no good marks for being able to hobnob, but bad marks for countries where you're not.

Forgive me if I'm proud of that. There's a lot wrong with my country, but there's a lot right too.
Compared with most of Africa and the Middle-East, the US isn't just great, but positively awesome. But compared with most of the Western world, it's probably about average.

[LibraryLady]

I didn't say we were the only country with those achievements or even that we are the best. I only said I am pleased to be American for those reasons.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

That's more or less how I, and I suspect other Australians and Europeans, respond to the news that people of different faiths get along in the USA.


It's good to hear that peace and tolerance are so taken for granted in your country. That's really great...but I do think there's something to say for the brotherhood of man.

Certainly more to say for it than that it's analogous to and no more exceptional than stamp collectors and non-collecters getting along. :eye-poppi

[Fitter]

Best thing of all about America? Americans. :cool:

Seconded, especially the ones I've met and can call "friend" through this forum.

[Graham Ross]

James Randi.

And Carl Sagan.

[OldTigerCub]

In my humble opinion:

Bruce Springsteen
Toby Keith
Merle Haggard
Chevy Pickup Trucks
Jeff Foxworthy
Larry the Cable Guy
G.I. Joe
Red Ryder BB Guns
Colt, Smith & Wesson, Remington and Winchester Firearms
(not necessarily in that order)

and of course...
The Pittsburgh Stillers:D

[Redtail]

Southern Style BBQ
Muscle Cars
Victory Motorcycles
Baker's Bourbon
Gets distracted by TV
:eye-poppi... And Rambo it seems...

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Gets distracted by TV
:eye-poppi... And Rambo it seems...

Watching UFC?:)

[Redtail]

Watching UFC?:)

Yes I was.:D

[timebomb]

Your GPS (Global Positioning System) - if it had been another country that invented the system, I seriously doubt they would let us use it for free.

[Haywire]

The P-51 Mustang

[erlando]

Your GPS (Global Positioning System) - if it had been another country that invented the system, I seriously doubt they would let us use it for free.

A downside to that is that it's the american military that controls the precision available to "civilians" (read: the rest of the world"). That wrecked havok during some of the attacks on Iraq.

But yes I like my GPS too. But I look forward to the european version Galileo (http://www.esa.int/esaNA/GGGMX650NDC_galileo_0.html). Because GPS doesn't cover the northern European continent so well.. (I lock on to 7-8 satellites driving around Denmark. When I took my GPS-nav to Ohio it locked on to 15 immediately!).

[erlando]

Your GPS (Global Positioning System) - if it had been another country that invented the system, I seriously doubt they would let us use it for free.

To be fair to the russians their GLONASS is also part of the GNSS alongside the american GPS. But the americans were first. Well done. :)

[egslim]

if it had been another country that invented the system, I seriously doubt they would let us use it for free.
Why? It has nothing to do with altruism, by allowing GPS to be used for free the US reduces the incentive for other nations to create a similar system. And that gives the US military control over everyone's satellite navigation system, which is a major strategic benefit. Nothing wrong with that, but any other major power able to create and maintain such a system could have made the same calculation.

[Oliver]

The greatest thing about America is that they stood up against
the British empire and the king. I wonder where that patriotism and
enthusiasm went nowadays.

[brumsen]

Overconsumption of resources means that a high standard of life is attained by externalizing environmental costs. Basically, using resources without paying for them. If product prices do not include the cost of replenishing resources, then basically the bill has to be picked up eventually by others - future generations or inhabitants of other regions. Sustainability and all that.


How long has America been "picking up the bill" for the defense of Europe?

My first reaction would probably be, "there you have it again. Of course we Europeans have to be Eternally Grateful that they saved our skins, especially in WWII, and so we apparently have to forgive them all sins they've committed since." It's not the first time I receive this answer on this forum, and I am frankly a bit tired with it. Morally it does not really make much sense, I would have thought: can one not be grateful and yet be pointing out the other party's faults?

Your comparison of overconsumption of resources with... well, with what - overengagement in dangerous international relations? - does moreover not make a lot of sense. War is a matter between men, where (un)sustainability is a matter between man and environment. (Over)consumption of resources makes irreversible changes in that environment, so that others need to make bigger efforts just to be able to survive in that environment. (In the short-ish term this often translates into higher monetary cost, but that's only a small part of the story. I take it, BTW, that UnrepentantSinner has answered sufficiently on the purely monetary reading of your comparison)
Whereas, "the defence of Europe"... is defence against... uhm, what exactly? Europe might definitely have been a different - quite possibly, less pleasant - place were it not for American military intervention.... but is that a species survival issue? And might there not also simply be (or have been) an issue of defending American strategic interests in Europe?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

My first reaction would probably be, "there you have it again. Of course we Europeans have to be Eternally Grateful that they saved our skins, especially in WWII, and so we apparently have to forgive them all sins they've committed since." It's not the first time I receive this answer on this forum, and I am frankly a bit tired with it. Morally it does not really make much sense, I would have thought: can one not be grateful and yet be pointing out the other party's faults?

Your comparison of overconsumption of resources with... well, with what - overengagement in dangerous international relations? - does moreover not make a lot of sense. War is a matter between men, where (un)sustainability is a matter between man and environment. (Over)consumption of resources makes irreversible changes in that environment, so that others need to make bigger efforts just to be able to survive in that environment. (In the short-ish term this often translates into higher monetary cost, but that's only a small part of the story. I take it, BTW, that UnrepentantSinner has answered sufficiently on the purely monetary reading of your comparison)
Whereas, "the defence of Europe"... is defence against... uhm, what exactly? Europe might definitely have been a different - quite possibly, less pleasant - place were it not for American military intervention.... but is that a species survival issue? And might there not also simply be (or have been) an issue of defending American strategic interests in Europe?


The point I was making; not well I might add, was that American "overconsumption" is in great part due to American intervention and use of those resources to the benefit of many nations in the world.

It is unreasonable to blame America for over-consuming when many Nations directly benefit from that overconsumption and therefore are willing conspirators.

This is akin to blaming the oil companies for ruining the environment whist driving a gas powered automobile. When Europe funds their own national defense than Europeans might have the right to excoriate the American "overconsumption". Until then they are whistling into the wind. :)

[brumsen]

The point I was making; not well I might add, was that American "overconsumption" is in great part due to American intervention and use of those resources to the benefit of many nations in the world.
Evidence?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Evidence?

That America uses resources which benefit other nations of the world?

Are you kidding?

UN

World Bank

Military bases around the world

Foreign aid

NASA

Where has you been for the last 60 years?
:confused:

[brumsen]

That America uses resources which benefit other nations of the world?

Are you kidding?
No. This was, anyway, not really your argument. First, your argument was "You ought to be grateful for our European interventions, so don't come whining about our overconsumption", which you then changed into "that we consume more, per capita, than other parts of the world is because we use those resources to the benefit of others". I could agree with what I quoted above, yet disagree with that argument - as I in fact do.
Why? Well, you would have to show that the average American ecological footprint is about twice as big as say, the average European ecological footprint due to the recources used for the things that you list.

UN

World Bank
How exactly are they American?

Military bases around the world
defending American strategic interests

Foreign aid
.. where America is almost bottom of the list of aid donors in terms of %GNP spent on aid (http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp), with 0,17%. Sweden, top of the list, spent more than 5 times as much.
So that does not really help your argument.

NASA
How exactly does this use of resources benefit other nations?

So not much flesh on the bones of your argument, as yet.

ETA:
This is akin to blaming the oil companies for ruining the environment whist driving a gas powered automobile.
Which is not all that ridiculous. Oil companies are energy-providing companies, with big vested interests. They have interests in people needing oil and oil products, so they will stimulate this. But alternatively, they could make the choice of making enormous investments in alternative means of energy provision.
Practically speaking, on the other hand, many people do not have a lot of choices as to their means of transport. One has to make do with the infrastructure at hand. However one can at the same time deplore this and try to influence choices of oil companies, and governmental infrastructure and tax decisions, in order to try and reduce this dependency on gas powerd vehicles. No inconsistency at all.

Moreover, oil companies make choices in where and how they get the oil out and how it is transported, choices which have big impacts on the environment.

When Europe funds their own national defense than Europeans might have the right to excoriate the American "overconsumption". Until then they are whistling into the wind. :)
Oh, you're back to that statement? Why don't you answer Unrepentant Sinner's post, rather just ignoring what he said?

[Halcyon Dayz]

Brumsen, you're making way to much sense here. :D

[hgc]

Corn dogs

[brumsen]

Brumsen, you're making way to much sense here. :D

well, sorry about that...
but I did get the impression that beerina's and jerome da gnome posts to which I was reacting were sort of serious. Now if that turns out to be a misunderstanding, I'll just shut up.

[Redtail]

The P-51 Mustang

Fight, fight, fight, fight, Fighting 99th...

[erlando]

Why? It has nothing to do with altruism, by allowing GPS to be used for free the US reduces the incentive for other nations to create a similar system. And that gives the US military control over everyone's satellite navigation system, which is a major strategic benefit. Nothing wrong with that, but any other major power able to create and maintain such a system could have made the same calculation.
As I noted earlier that's exactly why the EU is building their own...:

Europe today have no alternative other than to take their positions from US GPS or Russian GLONASS satellites. Yet the military operators of both systems give no guarantee to maintain an uninterrupted service.

Satellite positioning has already become the standard way of navigating. If the signals were switched off tomorrow, many ship and aircraft crews would find it inconvenient and difficult to revert to traditional navigation methods. As the use of satellite navigation spreads, the implications of a signal failure will be even greater, jeopardising not only the efficient running of transport systems, but also human safety. source (http://www.esa.int/esaNA/GGG0H750NDC_galileo_0.html)

[JEROME DA GNOME]

How exactly are they American?

Think for a moment how well the UN and the World Bank would function without using the resources of the USA.

Keep in mind you are arguing that the US uses too many resources.

defending American strategic interests

With no benefit to the country of residence?

How much more would Europe have spent on military defense over the past 60 years if America did not have an army there?

Do you think some resources would have been consumed by Europe to support their own defense?


.. where America is almost bottom of the list of aid donors in terms of %GNP spent on aid (http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp), with 0,17%. Sweden, top of the list, spent more than 5 times as much.
So that does not really help your argument.

Silly.

10% of 1 is much less than 2% of 1,000.


How exactly does this use of resources benefit other nations?

Missile defense.

Do you really think that the Soviets would not have expanded into Europe if the US did not have missiles pointed in their direction.

How old are you?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Which is not all that ridiculous. Oil companies are energy-providing companies, with big vested interests. They have interests in people needing oil and oil products, so they will stimulate this. But alternatively, they could make the choice of making enormous investments in alternative means of energy provision.
Practically speaking, on the other hand, many people do not have a lot of choices as to their means of transport. One has to make do with the infrastructure at hand. However one can at the same time deplore this and try to influence choices of oil companies, and governmental infrastructure and tax decisions, in order to try and reduce this dependency on gas powerd vehicles. No inconsistency at all.

Moreover, oil companies make choices in where and how they get the oil out and how it is transported, choices which have big impacts on the environment.



Let me know when you stop purchasing oil and then you may have an argument.
:confused:

Keep in mind people lived for many centuries without. Why can you not do the same?

[brumsen]

Think for a moment how well the UN and the World Bank would function without using the resources of the USA.
The US has substantial unpaid contributions to the UN (http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/assessmt.htm), AFAIK.
Anyway, in absolute terms of course the contribution is substantial, because the US are both big and rich.

Keep in mind you are arguing that the US uses too many resources.
More specifically, I argue that per capita consumption of resources is substantially higher than that of the rest of the world, which IMHO means the US are claiming an unfair share.
So, even if contributions to UN and World Bank are high in absolute terms, they are nothing out of the ordinary in terms of percentage of GNP. Therefore no reason or excuse for higher per capita resource consumption.

Admittedly, percentage of GNP is not the same as per capita. But for the purpose of this discussion it will do, given that GNP per capita is not substantially different between US and Western Europe (http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/infopays/rank/PNBH2.html).

With no benefit to the country of residence?
That is a matter for interpretation. The US claims to be spreading liberty and democracy all over the world by military means; the people "benefiting" from this sometimes hold a different opinion.

How much more would Europe have spent on military defense over the past 60 years if America did not have an army there?
So when are you going to reply to the post of unrepentant sinner (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3224855&postcount=104)?

Do you think some resources would have been consumed by Europe to support their own defense?
Possibly. But this is speculation and does not go very far in showing that the amount of resources spent by the US is almost double that of Western Europe because of resource spending on military presence in Europe.

Silly.

10% of 1 is much less than 2% of 1,000.
See above. The silliness is all yours: we are talking per capita here, not absolute terms.

Missile defense.

Do you really think that the Soviets would not have expanded into Europe if the US did not have missiles pointed in their direction.
Missile defense has been developed by NASA? Surely only partially.

Anyway this is speculation, and not more than that. Personally I indeed think not. And as the Dutch said in the 80's, "better to have a Russian in the kitchen than a missile in the back yard".

How old are you?
Kindly indicate the relevance of this question to our discussion.

Let me know when you stop purchasing oil and then you may have an argument.
Please let me know when you'll engage with the argument I already gave, rather than just restating your position.

Keep in mind people lived for many centuries without. Why can you not do the same?
Of course I could. But is it reasonable to ask me to completely place myself outside of modern society just in order to have the right to complain about what oil companies are doing? I would have thought not.

[Matteo Martini]

How exactly are they American?


Have a look at the 11 presidents of the World Bank, so far..

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTABOUTUS/EXTARCHIVES/0,,contentMDK:20510826~pagePK:36726~piPK:437378~th eSitePK:29506,00.html

[Normal Dude]

Maybe this derail should be split.

My addition (Stuff I don't think that has been added):

Hollywood. Sure, it is a mixed blessing, but you can't tell me you haven't gotten plenty of entertainment from the good stuff coming out of there. ;)

[brumsen]

Have a look at the 11 presidents of the World Bank, so far..

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTABOUTUS/EXTARCHIVES/0,,contentMDK:20510826~pagePK:36726~piPK:437378~th eSitePK:29506,00.html

OK, I know...
But in terms of per capita contributions.... which was the issue relevant to the discussion...

[brumsen]

Maybe this derail should be split.
If others think so too, that would be OK with me.
But is it really a derail? No discussion allowed in this thread about whether the things mentioned are really great things about America? Slightly odd.

[gumboot]

Things I personally admire about the United States of America

(note: by saying I admire these traits, I am not saying the USA necessarily invented them, or they are exclusive to the USA)

-World War Two - The greatest threat posed to the free world since the Persian invasion of Greece in 480 BC. The free world managed to gain victory through a collective effort, but it is my opinion that the single most vital and deciding factor in WW2 was the USA's entry. Not due to military strength, but because it brought the entire weight of US industry behind the allied war machine. That was the deciding factor, in every campaign and every theatre.

-Science and Technology - The USA's vast wealth, modernism, and practise of welcoming with open arms brilliant minds from around the globe, has made them a powerhouse of advancing the field of science and technology.

-Cinema - although some posters have been incorrect in attributing the earliest film industries to the USA, America's attractiveness and welcoming of foreigners enabled the great minds of Soviet Montage, German Expressionism, and French New Wave to meet together in Hollywood and form the skeleton of modern film language. They're also one of few countries with the funds to make productions of the quality and scope that the rest of us filmmakers dream of.

-Music - I love music, and some of my favourite music comes from your shores. From the rhythm of progressive rock group "Tool" to Gary Morris' performance of Jean Valjean.

-Ideology - I'm firmly convinced that no nation in the world is as seriously and genuinely committed to the values of modern western civilisation as the USA is. It is, and always has been the very foundation of your nation. No other state can make that claim. That is why, despite your current "interesting" government, I have no concerns whatsoever about your nation falling under the iron fist of tyranny.

-Offerings to humanity - despite its rather negative international reputation, I think the USA collectively as a nation, has done more good for the human race than any other society in our long history. Partly it's scale - you're big and rich. But it's also something about your attitude.

Someone linked to donations of aid as a measure of GDP, but as an example, it was helicopters from a US aircraft carrier that provided the first relief for victims of the Boxing Day Tsunami, and things like that are not factored into those aid donation calculations. The US government will accept Freedom of Information requests from foreigners - a fact that I still find incredible. All of your government intellectual property is automatically gifted into the public domain. When you put men on the moon you declared "We came in peace for all mankind" rather than "Ha ha Russia you suck, America is the greatest".

-Americans - some of you are crazy, some of you are obnoxious, some of you are ignorant, but some of you rank amongst the most intelligent, interesting, kind, and friendly people I have ever met.

I am reminded of an Iranian propaganda video which ended with the fanfare from Vangelis' Conquest of Paradise and the declaration "The World Without America".

The bottom line, as far as I am concerned, is that the world would be a much darker, sadder and less interesting place without the United States. May your nation prosper.

As for any Europeans feeling the need to slag the USA off, give the kid a chance. Your nations took thousands of years to get any semblance of freedom and equality. The USA, by comparison, is a child prodigy. Give them a chance and who knows what they will grow into.

-Gumboot

[brumsen]

The bottom line, as far as I am concerned, is that the world would be a much darker, sadder and less interesting place without the United States. May your nation prosper.

As for any Europeans feeling the need to slag the USA off, give the kid a chance. Your nations took thousands of years to get any semblance of freedom and equality. The USA, by comparison, is a child prodigy. Give them a chance and who knows what they will grow into.

-Gumboot
Well written post Gumboot, and it might come as a surprise that I agree with much of what you say, though not necessarily with the 'bottom line'.
By the way, the nation I live in currently has existed less long than the US of A - not that I would make any claims about its greatness though. And erm, even child prodigies need corrections and education; if they make errors they need to be told. That's no slagging off.

[MG1962]

Great post Gumboot - simply outstanding :clap:

[Dancing David]

That America uses resources which benefit other nations of the world?

Are you kidding?

UN

World Bank

Military bases around the world

Foreign aid

NASA

Where has you been for the last 60 years?
:confused:


Uh dude, this is sort of silly, the burning of feul in cars, when trains would be much more efficient, the throw away platic society where we send our computers to China to be burned, the cutting down of farmed trees to keep the price of paper pulp low;

How can that benefit other counties?

You are scrambling different events and lumping them together.

And military bases are not there to protect other counties, they are there to extend our political and military power solely.

[LibraryLady]

Thanks, Gummy. Now I don't feel like I have to issue an apology for liking my own country, while acknowledging its faults.

[sackett]

Thanks for a great post, gumboot.

Yes, thanks a lot. Now all of us Americans must try to live up to that.

[Beerina]

Please define socialized medicine. Are you suggesting that countries where there is no health system crisis all (or: necessarily) have a system of socialized medicine?

Not necessarily, but in the US currently, that is the context of the discussion.

More importantly: is a maximal rate of development of medical technology what we need te be best off in the long run? Would it develop the things that most benefits most people? Hardly self-evident.

Wouldn't you want both massive government spending and greedy capitalists all working to develop cures? Why stomp on half that equation -- and the half that has proved the most productive by far?

As for maximizing the rate, imagine if you slowed it by a mere 10%. If you had started in 1900, you'd have 1990 tech in the year 2000. If you had slowed it by 20%, you'd have had 1980 tech in the year 2000.

I'd rather have costly year 2000 tech in 2000 than free 1980 tech. You may freely disagree, but if you do, please go stand in line next to Hitler and Stalin as one of the great mass murderers of all time.


The same faulty argument. If the gap between rich and poor is made smaller, this may - despite slower overall increase in productivity - nonetheless be of more benefit to more people. So average quality of life could well increase.

Could, but wouldn't, as is also shown historically. "Gap between rich and poor" is what it always has been -- a mere rhetorical bleat to the masses by those seeking power, which is to say, some other rich men (and women) who are seeking power over others who aren't in government. It's leftover from the days of kings and land-lords, and it plays in the hearts of the masses because it's much easier on the ego to believe you aren't wealthy because someone is keeping you down.


(The failure of socialists' workers paradises has hardly shown that "the bigger the gap between rich and poor, the better". Hence, in my formulation above, the word "may". Some gap between rich and poor may be a good thing, for reasons related to what you are thinking.)

Yes, but the current rhetoric (which, by the way, never goes away, so how would one ever separate out "acceptable" (if not outright beneficial) vs. "bad" gaps when blown out the mouth of a power hungry politician?) talks about how it's increasing, and "it's bad". It's promoted as being bad on the face of it. The rich are taking it all. Oh my god!

If the economy was getting better, everyone would be getting better off, on average. And the rich would accelerate away. That's how the math works. Double everyone's income, and everyone is better off (neglecting inflation). Yet the "gap" is far wider.

Now you can do what FDR did, and tax the hell out of the rich's income (which didn't affect him or the Kennedy clan back then because, see, curiously, they already had their wealth. Strange, that.) but then you get stuck with a stagnant economy that you either lose the election because of (e.g. Ford, Carter) or you "get lucky" and have a war (FDR.)

But that's all the details. The high-level rhetoric in use never gets that far, and isn't intended to.


So why does [the electoral system in the US] still exist?

Given it burned the Democrats in 2000, they want to get rid of it. But they know that, statistically, they're just as likely to be the beneficiaries of it too.

Both sides can benefit from them, and often do:

"Winner take all" at the state level does have some benefits -- it can exaggerate a landslide, giving a greater mandate. It also requires candidates to actually make an effort in individual states. Without it, the elections would be largely a coastal event, with people working for every last chunk of person in California, New York, Florida, and a few other states.

While this would benefit people in those states (and certain parties that cater to people who live in large masses of humanity) it would harm the other states, which are most states.

And since this would require a constitutional ammendment, which requires approval of 3/4 the states, which are mostly the small states that would be harmed, it ain't gonna happen.

By the way, some states are trying to adopt a "electoral votes go to the national winner" strategy, where their state's electoral votes will be given to the candidate who gets the popular majority nationally. Note this means California's 57 electoral votes or so would have gone to Bush in 2004. Now try to be a Democrate promoting that strategy for your state, California, and see what happens to you in the next election after such a travesty.

Overconsumption of resources means that a high standard of life is attained by externalizing environmental costs. Basically, using resources without paying for them. If product prices do not include the cost of replenishing resources, then basically the bill has to be picked up eventually by others - future generations or inhabitants of other regions. Sustainability and all that.

Future generations, barring massive government intervention which slows development, will be all the much better off, and in a better position to deal with things. This man made a career (http://juliansimon.org) embarassing intellectuals who claimed otherwise.

A theory is only as good as its predictions, and his theory stands up to tests vs. actual reality, when the gloom-and-doom environmentalists' fail.

His "controversial" theory? That, in a relatively free economy, the prices of things tends to fall over time, indicating decreased scarcity. It's not that there's somehow more copper in the crust of the Earth. It's that the advancing technologies combined with freedom to compete causes the supplies to increase, both directly (more discoveries, better efficiency) and indirectly via substitutes (other metals, other materials, other ways of doing X, Y, and Z.) Nobody needs cathode ray tubes thanks to transistors, which are going bye-bye thanks to integrated circuits.


ETA: great things about America? Let's see:-
the holiness of gun ownership
the death penalty
torturing of prisoners

I do admit having an attorney general wannabee testifiying before Congress in his confirmation hearing saying he'd wait and see before deciding if waterboarding was torture while presidential candidate John McCaine stands down the hall saying he was waterboarded in Vietnam and, yes, it is torture is a bizarre spectacle.

[Darth Rotor]

And military bases are not there to protect other counties, they are there to extend our political and military power solely.
Not quite right. It isn't either or. It is both. False dichotomy for fifty, Alex. :)

DR

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

If others think so too, that would be OK with me.
But is it really a derail? No discussion allowed in this thread about whether the things mentioned are really great things about America? Slightly odd.

I thought I addressed that in the OP when I said no derailing into mud-slinging but, yes, there should be plenty of discusssion about what merits and constitutes or doesn't merit and constitute greatness.

[brumsen]

Wouldn't you want both massive government spending and greedy capitalists all working to develop cures? Why stomp on half that equation -- and the half that has proved the most productive by far?
You view it too much as a one-dimensional thing. My point was that the greedy capitalists are likely to develop only the cures that make them most money, therefore not necessarily the ones that are most useful or benefiting most. Or the ones that increase quality-of-life most.

I'd rather have costly year 2000 tech in 2000 than free 1980 tech. You may freely disagree, but if you do, please go stand in line next to Hitler and Stalin as one of the great mass murderers of all time.
A faulty and emotive argument. If basic medicine were available to all rather than expensive medicine to a few, you're likely to save lives rather than waste them.

"Gap between rich and poor" is what it always has been -- a mere rhetorical bleat to the masses by those seeking power, which is to say, some other rich men (and women) who are seeking power over others who aren't in government.
Whatever. If you want to see it that way.

If the economy was getting better, everyone would be getting better off, on average. And the rich would accelerate away. That's how the math works.
Sure. If I were to get a million dollars, both of us would on average be richer.
I'm just saying that "on average" is not the kind of math that I want to apply here.

Future generations, barring massive government intervention which slows development, will be all the much better off, and in a better position to deal with things. This man made a career (http://juliansimon.org) embarassing intellectuals who claimed otherwise.

A theory is only as good as its predictions, and his theory stands up to tests vs. actual reality, when the gloom-and-doom environmentalists' fail.

His "controversial" theory? That, in a relatively free economy, the prices of things tends to fall over time, indicating decreased scarcity. It's not that there's somehow more copper in the crust of the Earth. It's that the advancing technologies combined with freedom to compete causes the supplies to increase, both directly (more discoveries, better efficiency) and indirectly via substitutes (other metals, other materials, other ways of doing X, Y, and Z.) Nobody needs cathode ray tubes thanks to transistors, which are going bye-bye thanks to integrated circuits.
Yeah I've heard about him. Fine as far as it goes. Economically, gloom and doom might be some way off. But this story only allows you to deal with one type of problem, namely exhaustion of natural resources. Pollution, incl. global warming, are a different story.
And if one holds the principle that we should not pass on the environment to the next generations in a state worse than we received it, there is therefore a problem.

[brumsen]

I thought I addressed that in the OP when I said no derailing into mud-slinging but, yes, there should be plenty of discusssion about what merits and constitutes or doesn't merit and constitute greatness.
I'd be happy to go with your decision whether this constitutes a derail (or mud-slinging)

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I'd be happy to go with your decision whether this constitutes a derail (or mud-slinging).

No, I think it's appropriate. Please feel free to address anything you'd disagree with in this thread.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

"Winner take all" at the state level does have some benefits -- it can exaggerate a landslide, giving a greater mandate. It also requires candidates to actually make an effort in individual states. Without it, the elections would be largely a coastal event, with people working for every last chunk of person in California, New York, Florida, and a few other states.

"Winner take all" is not the rule, it is the current custom. The electors can vote as they wish individually.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The electors can vote as they wish individually.

False.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

False.

True.

[Hindmost]

Creole food.

glenn:)

[JEROME DA GNOME]

A great thing about America is that citizens do not elect the chief of state.

A great thing about America is that it is NOT a Democracy.

[gumboot]

By the way, the nation I live in currently has existed less long than the US of A - not that I would make any claims about its greatness though.

As mine. New Zealand has only been a nation state for 59 years.


And erm, even child prodigies need corrections and education; if they make errors they need to be told. That's no slagging off.

Of course.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Thanks, Gummy. Now I don't feel like I have to issue an apology for liking my own country, while acknowledging its faults.


The reshuffling of my opinion of the USA really began while working on a Discovery Channel TV series called Animal Face Off. We had a whole bunch of animal experts from around the world come over to talk about the animals on each episode, and the man who came over to talk about the bears was an American called Jeff who owned a Grizzly Bear which he worked in the film industry.

Jeff was a tall man with a big bushy beard, and he was both friendly and smart. I don't recall where he was from, but it wasn't from Florida or California, which is where most of the American tourists I had been exposed to, and I don't think he was from a large urban centre.

Anyway, New Zealand filmmakers being a liberals that they are, and this being during the first months of the US occupation of Iraq, naturally politics came up a lot, especially when talking to the American animal experts on the show.

Most Americans I had been exposed to fell into two categories - they either anticipated everyone hating their country, so went out of their way to try demonstrate to the world how fantastic the USA is (Oh my gawd, your supermarket isn't open all night? Back home our local supermarket is always open and they sell wine!) or alternatively, they anticipated everyone hating their country so went out of their way to try demonstrate that some Americans felt the same way (Bush is a total moron, our country is so screwed, I hate it...).

I found both positions pretty distasteful - the first because of the extreme obnoxiousness and arrogance, the second because of the pathetic-ness of a nation whose own citizens derided it to foreigners.

Jeff was different. Jeff was unashamedly American. He loved his country and he wasn't afraid to admit it. But he also acknowledged its flaws. More importantly, he wasn't afraid to defend what we perceived as flaws, but which are more honestly nothing more than cultural differences, and differences in cultural values.

For example there's many aspects of American society which I personally hope never come to my shores (such as lax gun controls and widespread civil legal actions) but that which I have come to respect as differences between our two countries, rather than flaws in yours.

Meeting Jeff was an eye opener for me, and since posting on these forums my eyes have been opened even wider.

-Gumboot

[brumsen]

For example there's many aspects of American society which I personally hope never come to my shores (such as lax gun controls and widespread civil legal actions) but that which I have come to respect as differences between our two countries, rather than flaws in yours.
That's something which I don't feel I am able to. Maybe I should meet this Jeff character?

[Southwind17]

Too far away from Australia to matter! ;)

[gumboot]

That's something which I don't feel I am able to. Maybe I should meet this Jeff character?


Maybe you should think carefully about why you think your way of doing things is the only possible "right" way, and take a look at what that sort of attitude has caused in the past...

-Gumboot

[brumsen]

Maybe you should think carefully about why you think your way of doing things is the only possible "right" way...
I don't actually think that.

I suspect that people who know me would probably describe as a rather tolerant person. It's just that, well, there are limits to (my) tolerance.

[gumboot]

I don't actually think that.

I suspect that people who know me would probably describe as a rather tolerant person. It's just that, well, there are limits to (my) tolerance.


Your tolerance is nothing more than your own boundaries of right and wrong, which you're then applying to others without taking into account their boundaries of right and wrong.

-Gumboot

[BPScooter]

Just off the beaten path, here, I am very proud to claim countrymen

Mark Twain
Aaron Copland
Elvis Presley
Thomas A. Edison

All understandable and explainable but somehow undeniably "American" in their attitudes.

[brumsen]

Your tolerance is nothing more than your own boundaries of right and wrong, which you're then applying to others without taking into account their boundaries of right and wrong.

-Gumboot

Oh please. Don't start peddling moral relativism.

http://davefaq.com/Opinions/Relativism/1995-01-02.Relativism_Resolutions.gif

[Dancing David]

Not quite right. It isn't either or. It is both. False dichotomy for fifty, Alex. :)

DR

:)

:p


What are we protecting Okinawa from?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

True.

pwn3d

[sackett]

I could post at least as much as gumboot about the good things in New Zealand, but it would be irrelevant. New Zealand exists "outside the circles of this world," in Tolkien's phrase. May that most beautiful of archipelagoes float forever in her enchanted sea, in the Dream of Maui!

[gumboot]

I could post at least as much as gumboot about the good things in New Zealand, but it would be irrelevant. New Zealand exists "outside the circles of this world," in Tolkien's phrase. May that most beautiful of archipelagoes float forever in her enchanted sea, in the Dream of Maui!


Obviously New Zealand is far superior to the USA, but this thread is about America. :p

-Gumboot

[E.J.Armstrong]

Not to get into politics at all but since the United States has a bit of an image problem right now, I'd like a list to make me feel good about being an American again.

I'd like us to put together a list of the greatest American accomplishments or simply things you love about America. Feel free to discuss why something should or shouldn't be on the list but please take all attacks into another thread, this isn't the place for them.

I'll start:

1) First modern representative democracy in the world
1) a) Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of assemby, right to a fair trial

2) The invention of the lightbulb

3) The invention of the plane

4) The first recording devices, the technology of motion pictures
4) a) The first film industry

5) Pioneering of the Internet

6) The invention of jazz, rock and roll, the blues, soul, hip hop and country music- all uniquely American music genres

7) The invention of basketball, football and baseball

Just taking them in order:_

1) Bit of a problem with that claim. Wikipedia suggests that 'The United States Constitution, adopted in 1788, provided for an elected government and protected civil rights and liberties. However, in the colonial period before 1776, only adult white male property owners could vote; enslaved Africans, free black people and women were not extended the franchise.'

1) While there may be a right to a fair trial unfortunately the reality, such as the treatment of people in the Guantanamo concentration camp, indicates that fair trials are not for everyone.

3) Planes were not invented in the USA and early pioneers included Arab Abbas Ibn Firnas - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbas_Ibn_Firnas.

4) Early man had many recording devices before the USA was conceived. Moving pictures as in the zeotrope were invented by a citizen of the United Kingdom.

5) Many countries including the UK, Switzerland, USA etc pioneered the internet.

6) Unfortunately you didn't invent football. You invented American Football which largely is not played with the feet.

7) Baseball is directly descended from rounders, which originated in Ireland and the UK.

When making claims it is very important to define exactly what it is you are claiming - as Randi so eloquently shows so often.

Personally, I think the blues is a major contribution to world music and the absence of a class system based on birth (largely) is a good thing.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

6) Unfortunately you didn't invent football. You invented American Football which largely is not played with the feet.



Oh, yes we did- that is football. :D You are talking about soccer.

[shuize]

Most Americans I had been exposed to fell into two categories - they either anticipated everyone hating their country, so went out of their way to try demonstrate to the world how fantastic the USA is (Oh my gawd, your supermarket isn't open all night? Back home our local supermarket is always open and they sell wine!) or alternatively, they anticipated everyone hating their country so went out of their way to try demonstrate that some Americans felt the same way (Bush is a total moron, our country is so screwed, I hate it...).

I found both positions pretty distasteful - the first because of the extreme obnoxiousness and arrogance, the second because of the pathetic-ness of a nation whose own citizens derided it to foreigners.


There are quite a few spineless Americans in the second camp here in Japan -- those who would badmouth their country to ingratiate themselves with Japanese and other foreigners. I find it pretty pathetic as well.

Maybe they're just young and stupid, but there seems to be some kind common thought process that in order to be "international" one must crap all over the United States. Of course, the same is not really expected of other nationalities.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

There are quite a few spineless Americans in the second camp here in Japan -- those who would badmouth their country to ingratiate themselves with Japanese and other foreigners. I find it pretty pathetic as well.

Maybe they're just young and stupid, but there seems to be some kind common thought process that in order to be "international" one must crap all over the United States. Of course, the same is not really expected of other nationalities.


The current educational system in America presents America as an oppressor, particularly the white males. Guilt is indoctrinated.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

The current educational system in America presents America as an oppressor, particularly the white males. Guilt is indoctrinated.

So America isn't oppressive? Racism and sexism are banished from the land?

And feelings of guilt, anger, regret, or whatever about social group membership is part of one of the stages that people go through when learning about racism. It is not the end result.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

So America isn't oppressive? Racism and sexism are banished from the land?

And feelings of guilt, anger, regret, or whatever about social group membership is part of one of the stages that people go through when learning about racism. It is not the end result.

In reality America is about the individual. When one takes the mantel of group they are no longer an individual.

Educating individuals to accept group status and the accoutrements that go along with that group is the antithesis of being American.

[bigred]

And Paul Verhoeven mercilessly satirized that bit of fascism in the film version.:rolleyes:


The bad: Dumb as a mule red necks who think the universe is a 8,000 years old but bask in the reflected glory of NASA.
oh the irony - but hey thx for another post with off-topic and pointless racist remarks and religion bashing in a thread which has nothing do to w/it though.

The greatest thing about America is that they stood up against
the British empire and the king. I wonder where that patriotism and
enthusiasm went nowadays.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_United_States



5) Many countries including the UK, Switzerland, USA etc pioneered the internet. No, it was the USA (the military, specifically).

6) Unfortunately you didn't invent football. You invented American Football Which is what we're talking about.

Baseball is directly descended from rounders, which originated in Ireland and the UK.Debatable...and in any event, the game we know as baseball was indeed created in the US, even if based somewhat on earlier games (both US and/or non-US).

[Dancing David]

The current educational system in America presents America as an oppressor, particularly the white males. Guilt is indoctrinated.

Really, shocking!

What evidence is there of that?

[Dancing David]

In reality America is about the individual. When one takes the mantel of group they are no longer an individual.

Educating individuals to accept group status and the accoutrements that go along with that group is the antithesis of being American.


Huh, what?

I am sorry I don't understand that.

Are you saying that people should not be educated about what some groups of people did in the past?

I think that the Harrison crowd sending the 'civilized' native americans to oklahoma is something people should know. Or about all sorts of not so good things people do all the time.

Black amaricans having to eat at the back door of restraunts in the south for example.

Just as they should know about the abolistionists and the people who worked the underground railroad. Or about all sorts of good things that people do all the time.

People providing aid to each other during epidemics for example.

Or the character Archibald Cox form Gone with the Wind.

You take the good you take the bad.

[bigred]

Moving right along.......

Hamburgers
Hot dogs
Steak


Sorry I'm hungry. :)

PS don't give me that "they existed before..." bit. None of those things existed as they are currently known till America came along.

[bigred]

PS how could we forget (or did I miss it): computers :)

[sackett]

The Pennsylvania rifle, also known, although not quite correctly, as the Kentucky rifle.

I wish firearms had never developed beyond that. What for, after all?

[bigred]

Speaking of which, how about rockets, and lasers....

And A/C (pretty sure that's ours).

[sackett]

Speaking of which, how about rockets, and lasers....

And A/C (pretty sure that's ours).

Rockets? Lasers? How can you compare those soulless things to the graceful beauty of a Pennsylvania rifle with a cockeyed maple stock and flamboyant rivet bosses? (And fossil mammoth ivory inlays, just for fun.)

Practical alernating current generation is another of Nikola Tesla's inventions, so it's Serbian by inspiration and American by development. A/C was known to be an efficent form of current, but generating, handling, and tansmitting it was a problem until Tesla came up with his generator.

But Tesla was an American, the same way I'm a New Zealander.

[bigred]

Those soulless things got us to the moon Alice.

Hey there's another one: the sitcom. (OK not exactly, but TV-wise.....)

PS by A/C I meant Air Conditioning......

And how about the zipper?

[sackett]

Lasers got "us" to the moon? ("Us" must include Werner von Braun, right?) Whatever you say, Kay.

The zipper? Well, I haven't struggled with one yet today, so all right, that's a sooper dooper American invention.

The sitcom? Ah, I see that you're a mystic. Senta.

[bigred]

No, rockets did. Sorry thought it was obvious what I meant.

No idea what the rest of your post is supposed to mean, but it's been a long day...

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Huh, what?

I am sorry I don't understand that.

When one accepts that the actions of people of particular characteristics are a group dynamic that one is both racist and sexist which is the opposite of the America ideal.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Really, shocking!

What evidence is there of that?

Do you have any involvement in the current American educational system? If so, this fact is apparent.

[sinclairmcevoy]

The greatest thing about America is that it is sandwiched between 2 even greater countries. That and the fact that Americans think they invented just about everything. Oh yeah, they also think they are great. (but they're the only ones)

[JEROME DA GNOME]

The greatest thing about America is that it is sandwiched between 2 even greater countries. That and the fact that Americans think they invented just about everything. Oh yeah, they also think they are great. (but they're the only ones)

Individuals are great. America just presents the best opportunity for individuals to achieve with the fewest hindrances.

[sinclairmcevoy]

Individuals are great. America just presents the best opportunity for individuals to achieve with the fewest hindrances.Yeah, that's another great thing. (I wasn't being totally sarcastic)

[bigred]

The greatest thing about America is that it is sandwiched between 2 even greater countries.
Wow you must've had to re-take Geography in school several times. We're sandwiched between Mexico and Canada, FYI.


That and the fact that Americans think they invented just about everything.
Not quite, but I think it's safe to say we dust any other country by comparison.


Oh yeah, they also think they are great. (but they're the only ones)
And yet again the petty jealousy of someone from a far lesser country rears its ugly head. Very tedious.

PS and oh btw: we ARE great. Get over it.



O BEAUTIFUL, FOR SPACIOUS SKIES, WHICH ARE BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE'S......

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

Okay, I'll chime in.

Keeping the Soviets in check.


Corvettes.


Christopher Higgins and Mike Komisarek. New Yorkers, gentlemen, and fine ambassadors of their nation. It will be difficult for me to not cheer for Team USA at the next winter games.