why legallizing pot won't work

[Nie Trink Wasser]

"eww disgusting! my cancerous body is insulted !"


http://www.cjad.com/content/cjad_news/article.asp?id=n091543A
OTTAWA (CP) - Some of the first patients to smoke Health Canada's government-approved marijuana say it's "disgusting" and want their money back.

"It's totally unsuitable for human consumption," said Jim Wakeford, 58, an AIDS patient in Gibsons, B.C. "It gave me a slight buzziness for about three to five minutes, and that was it. I got no other effect from it."



there can never be a government regulated form of pot that will satisfy anyone. It'll never be potent enough, just as moonshine has much more alcohol in it, it sure isnt legal.

just think about how cool it would be, DUDE, to have extremely potent and legal marijuana out there for people to crash cars on ! Im sure the gov will support that !

wow man ! phish rules !

[Tmy]

Shouldnt this be in your govt ineptitued thread. THey cant even get a joint right!


Yknow you never hear stories about stoned drivers taking out a bus full of nuns. I think the whole danger about driving while stoned is really exaggerated propaganda.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Tmy

Yknow you never hear stories about stoned drivers taking out a bus full of nuns. I think the whole danger about driving while stoned is really exaggerated propaganda. [/B]

well...you may call it propaganda, but Ive had a few friends get too stoned and wreck their cars like idiots because they can't function properly.

[Ziggurat]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser

well...you may call it propaganda, but Ive had a few friends get too stoned and wreck their cars like idiots because they can't function properly.

So are you in favor of prohibition, seeing as how so many people not only crash their cars but also kill innocent bystanders by getting drunk? Or would consistency in your position be too much to ask?

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Ziggurat
Or would consistency in your position be too much to ask? [/B]

Mind your manners or else I'll insult you as well.



So are you in favor of prohibition, seeing as how so many people not only crash their cars but also kill innocent bystanders by getting drunk?


I favor the legalization of marijuana, but I feel that illegal pot will always exist, just as illegal alcohol will always exist. All of those people in prison for illegal pot will more than likely still be there when a legal form of pot comes on the market.

There are prescription drugs that have the same effect as marijuana.

doesnt corn silk have thc in it as well ?

[jj]

Originally posted by Ziggurat


So are you in favor of prohibition, seeing as how so many people not only crash their cars but also kill innocent bystanders by getting drunk? Or would consistency in your position be too much to ask?

N T has no point.
He likes to troll for his lunch.
Position? Donkey!

[Tony]

Old people call it "pot".

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by jj


N T has no point.
He likes to troll for his lunch.
Position? Donkey!

troll.

Each time you perfrom like this in my threads, I want it to be noticed by the forum as a demonstration of hypocrisy perpetuated by many people here.

you are a troll. not me.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser

there can never be a government regulated form of pot that will satisfy anyone. It'll never be potent enough, just as moonshine has much more alcohol in it, it sure isnt legal.

Grain alcohol is generally around 190 proof and last I checked can still be bought in stores. I doubt the legality of moonshine is a potency issue, it's a regulatory issue. A tax issue. Bootleggers didn't run 'shine because it was more potent, they did it it avoid the taxes of the federal government.

just think about how cool it would be, DUDE, to have extremely potent and legal marijuana out there for people to crash cars on ! Im sure the gov will support that !

Not a question of support. It is unfortunate that making something legal is equal to supporting that thing in the minds of many. Just because someone may possibly misuse something is hardly a reason to ban it.

For example, people wreck cars because of fatigue. Would you be in favor of state mandated bedtimes?

wow man ! phish rules !

They're not bad.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
just as illegal alcohol will always exist. Wait a sec, what illegal alcohol?

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Suddenly
Grain alcohol is generally around 190 proof and last I checked can still be bought in stores. I doubt the legality of moonshine is a potency issue, it's a regulatory issue. A tax issue. Bootleggers didn't run 'shine because it was more potent, they did it it avoid the taxes of the federal government.


are you so sure ? I've had moonshine that has a hell of a lot more alcohol-effect than what Ive gotten in the store. The bootleggers stand by their story that it has more alcohol than anything on the market.

you're point is that they're doing it so avoid paying taxes, but wouldnt that be the same case for pot harvesting ?

it will always be a problem, just as it is now.




[/B] Not a question of support. It is unfortunate that making something legal is equal to supporting that thing in the minds of many. Just because someone may possibly misuse something is hardly a reason to ban it.


that's why its regulated to avoid easy abuse and this doesnt make very many people happy.


For example, people wreck cars because of fatigue. Would you be in favor of state mandated bedtimes?


yeah you're right. potent drugs don't encourage bad performance behind a vehicle.


They're not bad. [/B]

Im afraid they are bad.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser


are you so sure ? I've had moonshine that has a hell of a lot more alcohol-effect than what Ive gotten in the store. The bootleggers stand by their story that it has more alcohol than anything on the market.



Yes he is sure, the liquor of which he speaks is called "Everclear". It is 190 proof (95% alcohol).

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser


are you so sure ? I've had moonshine that has a hell of a lot more alcohol-effect than what Ive gotten in the store. The bootleggers stand by their story that it has more alcohol than anything on the market.

Can you at least accept that if one can legally buy 190 proof (95% pure) alcohol in stores, that this makes it unlikely that moonshine is more "potent" than anything on the market? Ever have a shot of grain? Anyone who wants something more pure is either insane or fueling a rocket.


yeah you're right. potent drugs don't encourage bad performance behind a vehicle.

I never made the claim you attribute to me. Of course potent drugs when misused can result in poor driving.

I said there are things other than pot that can cause people to drive poorly. Are you in favor of government regulation of those things as well? If not, why are these different. One example is fatigue. Should the government regulate the sleep habits of drivers? Or are you willing to let people make their own decisions and be resposible for the outcome?

[LW]

Originally posted by Suddenly
Grain alcohol is generally around 190 proof

That's no proof. That's at most circumstantial evidence.

Sorry, always wanted to say that.

[DaChew]

What's the problem with the government pot? Is it not potent enough or a harsh smoke or what? I'm not sure I understand what the criticism is. My question concerning medical marijuana is: How do they measure the dosage? How do you maintain consistant dosage. I'm assuming that medical marijuana is subject to the same type of scrutiny that prescription drugs are and if not, why not?

Also, the moonshine business is almost a perfect example of how legalization reduces crime. Organized crime exited the illegal booze business the second prohibition was repealed because the there was no longer high profits once competition from massive distilleries and breweries opened. There are still illegal "moonshine" operations running but compared to the illegal pot market it's completely insignificant. The trouble with moonshine is that it's not necessarily JUST alcohol in it that's giving you the buzz. It could be laced with all kinds of things that would definitely hit you harder than grain alcohol. A little wood alcohol comes to mind as well as any number of narcotics.

[fishbob]

1. Everclear tastes like bad chemistry. The only reason to put in in your mouth is to shut down your brain. The one sample of moonshine I had years ago tasted pretty good - sort of like good quality bourbon.

2. Anybody that drives in a self-induced impaired condition is endangering the general public. Those persons should have their opportunity to drive removed.

3. The illegal drugs business is big money the operators; provides massive funding for huge bureaucracies; and creates jobs for law enforcement, the courts, and the prisons. Drug prohibition is way too profitable for way too many organizations. So the system is not upset if the government provides poor quality goods.

[reprise]

I seriously question whether legalising marijuana here would have that greater impact on crime levels. The only things I can see convincing your average pot smoker here to buy the legal product would be a cost advantage or superior quality. Somehow, I can't see the government pricing it lower than it is currently obtainable illegally, and just as there is a huge illegal tobacco market here I suspect that there would remain a large market for illegal dope.

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by DaChew
What's the problem with the government pot? Is it not potent enough or a harsh smoke or what? I'm not sure I understand what the criticism is.


If you read the article, you'd notice that:
Laboratory tests indicate the Health Canada product has only about three per cent THC - not the 10.2 per cent advertised - and contains contaminants such as lead and arsenic, said spokesman Philippe Lucas of Victoria.


Originally posted by DaChew
Also, the moonshine business is almost a perfect example of how legalization reduces crime.

Well, technically, leagalizing anything reduces crime, since the thing that was illegal before isn't. (If I legalized stealing, it would reduce crime because nobody would be a criminal for stealing anymore.)

The question should be, does legalization increase or decrease usage, and does it increase or decrease risks to society.

[Tony]

Originally posted by reprise
I seriously question whether legalising marijuana here would have that greater impact on crime levels. The only things I can see convincing your average pot smoker here to buy the legal product would be a cost advantage or superior quality. Somehow, I can't see the government pricing it lower than it is currently obtainable illegally, and just as there is a huge illegal tobacco market here I suspect that there would remain a large market for illegal dope.

Illegal tabacco market?..

Interesting...

[GroundStrength]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser


well...you may call it propaganda, but Ive had a few friends get too stoned and wreck their cars like idiots because they can't function properly.

Yeah, what were they going 4mph?

[American]

"It don't got to be legal man! You just got to be president!"

[Nyarlathotep]

I don't see how the article in the link can lead to the conclusion that legalizing pot won't work. It presents no good reason why pot SHOULD be illegal. And as for the complaints of the pot consumers in the article,their problem comes from the fact that they have only one source from which to get their marijuana. If it were legalized then it is almost a given that the free market would result in a variety of growers/blends/whatever else goes into the qulity of ones pot, and they would have a much beter chance of finding something that they DO like, just as people can find varieties of beer, cigarrettes or whatever else they like today.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Tony


Illegal tabacco market?..

Interesting...

There is a big illegal tobacco market in Australia (aka 'Chop-chop'), but it's for tax reasons. That's what happens when you tax the living Christ out of a product. I'm surprised that there isn't an illegal alcohol market as well. I assume the reason for this is that it's simple to brew your own (I wouldn't know where to get a tobacco seed if my cags depended on it).

[reprise]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


There is a big illegal tobacco market in Australia (aka 'Chop-chop'), but it's for tax reasons. That's what happens when you tax the living Christ out of a product. I'm surprised that there isn't an illegal alcohol market as well. I assume the reason for this is that it's simple to brew your own (I wouldn't know where to get a tobacco seed if my cags depended on it).

In addition to the "chop-chop" (loose tobacco) market, there's also a large market for illegally imported cigarettes. Again, as no tax is being paid on these, tobacconists sell them for a dollar or two less per pack than legal cigarettes and are making a much greater (and off the books) profit per pack than they do from the legal product.

The Australian Taxation Office estimates that at least $450 million per year of taxation revenue is lost as a result of the illegal tobacco market (I've seen some estimates that put the figure closer to $600 million). IIRC, the penalties for selling illegal tobacco are greater than the penalties for selling dope.

[WildCat]

There's no tax revenue in legal marijuana, it's too easy to grow. If the gov't taxed tomatoes at $5 a pop you would see gardens springing up everywhere. Same w/ pot, only it's even easier to grow than tomatoes.

[jj]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser


troll.

Each time you perfrom like this in my threads, I want it to be noticed by the forum as a demonstration of hypocrisy perpetuated by many people here.

you are a troll. not me.

You name me a troll.
Your own opinion never stated,
Provocation only.

N T just quotes others.
Then he can avoid debate!
Someone else said it.

[JAR]

I don't understand why people are putting themselves at risk of being put in a prison in order to use marijuana.

I've had plenty of friends who are nice people who could easily stay clear of jail cells if they just didn't smoke pot.

These people are nuts.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
there can never be a government regulated form of pot that will satisfy anyone. It'll never be potent enough, just as moonshine has much more alcohol in it, it sure isnt legal.
I take it you haven't visited Amsterdam recently?
Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
just think about how cool it would be, DUDE, to have extremely potent and legal marijuana out there for people to crash cars on ! Im sure the gov will support that !
Strawman. Or are you also arguing for a ban on alcohol? Just as it is illegal to drink and drive, so in the Netherlands it is illegal to get stoned and drive.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by JAR
I don't understand why people are putting themselves at risk of being put in a prison in order to use marijuana.

I've had plenty of friends who are nice people who could easily stay clear of jail cells if they just didn't smoke pot.

These people are nuts.

I go with Thoreau who, I'm told, said that people have the right to disobey unjust laws.

[rustypouch]

Just because the government can't grow good stuff, it doesn't mean that legally allowing people to grow their own won't work.

I have not sampled the government's bud, but I have had some very good homegrown.

[Nasarius]

I don't understand why people are putting themselves at risk of being put in a prison in order to use marijuana.

I've had plenty of friends who are nice people who could easily stay clear of jail cells if they just didn't smoke pot.

These people are nuts.

Not a lot of states are going to put you in jail for possession. For example, here in New York, it's a fine of a few hundred dollars. If I want to smoke pot occassionally, it's really not a big risk, even if I didn't have people I could trust.
People are hardly "nuts" for committing a victimless "crime" to have some fun. It's a relatively safe substance that doesn't mess you up as much as alcohol. So why is it illegal?

P.S. Phish sucks, and the Grateful Dead aren't much better ;) Pink Floyd, on the other hand...

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Nasarius
It's a relatively safe substance that doesn't mess you up as much as alcohol. So why is it illegal?
Because the rich and powerful tobacco lobby, who pay millions into the campaign chests of politicians, lobbied for criminalisation to remove hemp as a competition to their tobacco. They even sponsored a really lousy 1920s movie called "Reefer Madness", which lied about the effects of marijuana as making users psychotic.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Because the rich and powerful tobacco lobby, who pay millions into the campaign chests of politicians, lobbied for criminalisation to remove hemp as a competition to their tobacco. They even sponsored a really lousy 1920s movie called "Reefer Madness", which lied about the effects of marijuana as making users psychotic.

Actually, I slept with a coloured person (sic), raped women and murdered my best friend within moments of smoking a single marijuana joint.

BTW- did anyone see that episode of Hawaii 5-O where Steve and Danno are investigating an LSD ring, and they go through a mental hospital where they pity the poor young people who became permanently deranged after some bad acid, man? That was one funny episode.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
Actually, I slept with a coloured person (sic), raped women and murdered my best friend within moments of smoking a single marijuana joint.
I did that after watching the last New Labour party political broadcast...

[Tony]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


I go with Thoreau who, I'm told, said that people have the right to disobey unjust laws.



:dl: :dl:

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Tony




:dl: :dl: :rolleyes:

[Tony]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
:rolleyes:

Let's just say I'll remember that next time you talk about taxes, gun control ect...

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Tony


Let's just say I'll remember that next time you talk about taxes, gun control ect...

You mean like the Boston Tea Party?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


You mean like the Boston Tea Party?

Sorry to confuse you, I should have known thinking at an eighth grade level was above your head.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Tony
Sorry to confuse you, I should have known thinking at an eighth grade level was above your head.
Nice ad hominem, but note that your argument must then be with Thoreau, whom MM was only quoting...

[Tony]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Nice ad hominem, but note that your argument must then be with Thoreau, whom MM was only quoting...



:dl: :dl: :dl:

This is funny for more than three reasons.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Tony
This is funny for more than three reasons.
Don't keep us in suspense; what are these reasons of yours?

[Jim Lennox]

He said the government cannabis was too finely ground up with stems and leaves, calling it "shwag" or "bunk," street terminology for the lowest grade of marijuana.

This is what you get when you have a team of researchers and scientists all working on a project such as this, they all have first pick at the best buds..

Somewhat incidentally, doesn't the US government still provide medicinal marijuana to about three people as a legacy from a sixties investigation into the medical benefits?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Don't keep us in suspense; what are these reasons of yours?

My argument is not with Thoreau. I just thought that it was extremly ironic that a person who espouses views such as Mr Manifesto's would trod out such a concept.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


There is a big illegal tobacco market in Australia (aka 'Chop-chop'), but it's for tax reasons. That's what happens when you tax the living Christ out of a product. I'm surprised that there isn't an illegal alcohol market as well. I assume the reason for this is that it's simple to brew your own (I wouldn't know where to get a tobacco seed if my cags depended on it).

Now that you mention it, there is also an "illegal" cigarette market in the US. The scam is, people will go to, say, Kentucky, a place with low taxes on cigarettes, and buy them at wholesale price. Once they have a truck load of smokes, they traffic them to a state such as New York, where the cigarette tax is higher, they then proceed to sell the cigs at a greater price than they bought them for in Kentucky, but at a cheaper price than in New York.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
I'm surprised that there isn't an illegal alcohol market as well.
There is in Britain. People import cheap (untaxed) alcohol from France, and sell it in the UK cheaply.