9/11: Impossible Speed & Impact Busted!

[DCSorenson]

Interesting video I found on youtube which debunks the claims made by no planers that Flight 175 speed and impact was impossible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f8IiQMjf3U

[1337m4n]

All the evidence in that video is faked by NWO Kitty as part of the coverup.

You shill.

[Gravy]

More evidence that 9/11 crackpots can provide logical, evidence-based arguments when they're criticizing others in the truth movement. (He lost me at the DU part, though!)

The video's author is a member of this forum: only made a few posts IIRC. Search for "This is an orange."

Edit: Anthony Lawson. He didn't stick around after his controlled demolition claims were mocked. http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3090642&postcount=811

[PB2007]

Sorry for being a bit thick but what was that bit at the end about Depleated Uranium nose and wing tips. Watched that bit a few times and couldn't decide if the video was advocating DU or not.....

[fezzic]

Sorry for being a bit thick but what was that bit at the end about Depleated Uranium nose and wing tips. Watched that bit a few times and couldn't decide if the video was advocating DU or not.....

Depleted uranium (U-238) was used in armor piercing sabots from US tanks and the 30mm gatling on the A-10 because its increased density (and a fiery effect on impact). I haven't seen the video, but would presume the reference to depleted uranium was probably to infer that it was used (as in a modification of the airframe) to aid the aircraft in penetrating the outer wall.

[beachnut]

Interesting video I found on youtube which debunks the claims made by no planers that Flight 175 speed and impact was impossible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f8IiQMjf3U
Nut case takes on nut cases; this guy is a CD truth dolt.

[soylent]

DU counter-weights have been used in aircraft. Granted, he did some strange hand waving there and I didn't quite get what he was insinuating.

Nut case takes on nut cases; this guy is a CD truth dolt.

Meh. If they self-debunk at least JREF might be spared some of the more mundane and often debunked myths from yet again resurfacing. Not to mention the humorous qualities of the more inane truthers fighting amongst themselves.

[beachnut]

DU counter-weights have been used in aircraft. Granted, he did some strange hand waving there and I didn't quite get what he was insinuating.

Meh. If they self-debunk at least JREF might be spared some of the more mundane and often debunked myths from yet again resurfacing. Not to mention the humorous qualities of the more inane truthers fighting amongst themselves.
The nut case is trying to blame 9/11 on someone other than 19 terrorist. I am sorry, he is not a nut case, he is someone who tries to make up lies about 9/11 to blame others.

You are right, C-141s and other planes use DU in the flight control system as counter weights. But the "nut case" guy was trying to bring doubt on the terrorist doing the deed. He brings up new stupid ideas about some mythical du nosed Airliner with leading edges of DU.

[T.A.M.]

Welcome to the forum Soylent.

Is your favorite color green?

TAM;)

[Drudgewire]

Welcome to the forum Soylent.

Is your favorite color green?

TAM;)
PEEEEEEEPUUL!!! http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/fist4su.gif

[ElMondoHummus]

DU counter-weights have been used in aircraft. Granted, he did some strange hand waving there and I didn't quite get what he was insinuating.


That may be true, but the vid claimed use in the nosecone and the wings leading edges. Which to me doesn't exactly make the supposition any more plausible, IMHO, but I don't think he was genuinely suggesting it as reality. More that an airplane can be turned into a bunker busting sort of contraption if those modifications were made.

I'd luuuv for the aeronautic types here to fill me in on how messed up a 767's handling would be if someone genuinely filled the nose and leading edges (I'll leave it up in the air how much of the wing constitues the leading edge) with DU. :)


Meh. If they self-debunk at least JREF might be spared some of the more mundane and often debunked myths from yet again resurfacing. Not to mention the humorous qualities of the more inane truthers fighting amongst themselves.



I don't know if any of them even pay attention to debunkings within the so-called truth movement. The existence of counterarguments doesn't seem to keep members from trotting out the same myths over and over again.

[ElMondoHummus]

Welcome to the forum Soylent.

Is your favorite color green?

TAM;)


Boo! BOOOOOOOOOOOOO! :D:p;)

[apathoid]

That may be true, but the vid claimed use in the nosecone and the wings leading edges. Which to me doesn't exactly make the supposition any more plausible, IMHO, but I don't think he was genuinely suggesting it as reality. More that an airplane can be turned into a bunker busting sort of contraption if those modifications were made.

I'd luuuv for the aeronautic types here to fill me in on how messed up a 767's handling would be if someone genuinely filled the nose and leading edges (I'll leave it up in the air how much of the wing constitues the leading edge) with DU. :)



DU in the wings....heh. I like it. Beats the heck out of Kirkmans titanium winged "ex-military bad boys" powered by engines two thrust classes lower than would be required by the aluminum winged version non-bad boy. I miss Malcolm sometimes....good times.

[ElMondoHummus]

DU in the wings....heh. I like it. Beats the heck out of Kirkmans titanium winged "ex-military bad boys" powered by engines two thrust classes lower than would be required by the aluminum winged version non-bad boy. I miss Malcolm sometimes....good times.

Heh... I missed that one. Titanium, huh? I can't imagine how either soft or brittle something as large as an airplane wing would be if it were truly made out of that metal. Too many people don't reallize titanium's limitations. Heck, I didn't used to, until I decided to Google-research (as opposed to in-depth research :D) the idea of titanium swords; turns out that it's not a great metal for weaponry. Never knew that before.

So why was I looking up titanium swords? Well... umm... :whistling

[AMTMAN]

Heh... I missed that one. Titanium, huh? I can't imagine how either soft or brittle something as large as an airplane wing would be if it were truly made out of that metal. Too many people don't reallize titanium's limitations. Heck, I didn't used to, until I decided to Google-research (as opposed to in-depth research :D) the idea of titanium swords; turns out that it's not a great metal for weaponry. Never knew that before.

So why was I looking up titanium swords? Well... umm... :whistling

Titanium is used in commercial aircraft, however in small amounts in areas that require the sort of strength it provides. The F-14 used titanium for its wing box and box beams. It's difficult to work with and very expensive. That's why you don't see it used for that sort of thing on commercial jets. It's really not needed, aluminum does the job just fine.

[OldTigerCub]

Correct me if I'm wrong...but DU armored nose-cone and wingtips would be awfully heavy, wouldn't they? It seems that putting enough DU to act as a shield on the leading surfaces of any aircraft would make it...well...pretty much a rock with wings. It just seems that even the suggestion of DU armored airlplanes is pretty much self debunking right from the start...:confused:

[OldTigerCub]

So why was I looking up titanium swords? Well... umm... :whistling

You've been watching too many Ninja movies again, haven't you?;):p:rolleyes:

[AMTMAN]

Correct me if I'm wrong...but DU armored nose-cone and wingtips would be awfully heavy, wouldn't they? It seems that putting enough DU to act as a shield on the leading surfaces of any aircraft would make it...well...pretty much a rock with wings. It just seems that even the suggestion of DU armored airlplanes is pretty much self debunking right from the start...:confused:

Yes to would be heavy. In order to counteract the shift in CG you would have to install weight aft of the wings. Making the aircraft even heavier.

It seems they don't understand if you get something moving fast enough something soft like a bird can damage or even bring down an aircraft.

[BenBurch]

Isn't there a very tiny amount of Ti in the world? Recalling from the distant past, there is one beach in CA, USA, and two mines in the Urals?

[beachnut]

Heh... I missed that one. Titanium, huh? I can't imagine how either soft or brittle something as large as an airplane wing would be if it were truly made out of that metal. Too many people don't reallize titanium's limitations. Heck, I didn't used to, until I decided to Google-research (as opposed to in-depth research :D) the idea of titanium swords; turns out that it's not a great metal for weaponry. Never knew that before.

So why was I looking up titanium swords? Well... umm... :whistling
The SR-71 was made with lots of Titanium; it seemed to get stronger as it aged.

[JimBenArm]

The SR-71 was made with lots of Titanium; it seemed to get stronger as it aged.
That sounds like me. Mostly because I don't bathe regularly...

[Reality Believer]

Isn't there a very tiny amount of Ti in the world? Recalling from the distant past, there is one beach in CA, USA, and two mines in the Urals?
It can't be too scarce, Frank Gehry sheaths his buildings in it.

[BenBurch]

It can't be too scarce, Frank Gehry sheaths his buildings in it.

Well, I'm wrong. What mineral was I thinking of?

[HL7442]

The only commercial aircraft that used DU as a ballast were the CV-880 and CV-990. The ballast was located in the tail cone.

[soylent]

Titanium is fairly abundant in the earths crust. It's widely dispersed with few deposits that make economical sense to mine.

The usual way to produce one mole of titanium consumes 7 moles of chlorine gas and 2 moles of magnesium metal. That's a large part of the cost.

[soylent]

The only commercial aircraft that used DU as a ballast were the CV-880 and CV-990. The ballast was located in the tail cone.

I'm not sure that's true. Wikipedia claims early 747's used uranium in the "outboard engine nacelles" to deal with high-speed flutter.

[CurtC]

Well, I'm wrong. What mineral was I thinking of?
Platinum?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Interesting video I found on youtube which debunks the claims made by no planers that Flight 175 speed and impact was impossible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f8IiQMjf3U


The maker of this video thinks the planes were cruise missiles with depleted uranium.

He has debunked himself.

Is dive speed different that flight speed? :confused:

[Reality Believer]

The only commercial aircraft that used DU as a ballast were the CV-880 and CV-990. The ballast was located in the tail cone.
DU is used to balance flight control surfaces where you need a small dense mass that can be placed forward of the hinge line. I know it was used on MD-80's and MD-11's.

[ElMondoHummus]

You've been watching too many Ninja movies again, haven't you?;):p:rolleyes:


Umm... well... uhhhh... :whistling

[ElMondoHummus]

Titanium is used in commercial aircraft, however in small amounts in areas that require the sort of strength it provides. The F-14 used titanium for its wing box and box beams. It's difficult to work with and very expensive. That's why you don't see it used for that sort of thing on commercial jets. It's really not needed, aluminum does the job just fine.

The SR-71 was made with lots of Titanium; it seemed to get stronger as it aged.

Oh, yes. I know it was used in critical areas - like AMTMAN said, such as in the frame for an F-14. I was just extrapolating from my (admittedly limited) knowledge of titanium's qualities. If you need a titanium alloy to be rigid, you end up making it brittle. If you make it so it's not brittle, it's not hard enough for weapons applications (I was thinking swords and the like when I made that statement).

So the question is whether a titanium alloyed wing would actually be practical. I thought that, because of the tradeoff between hardness and brittleness, it would be unfeasable, but Beachnut's statement made me look up info on the Blackbird (found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR-71_Blackbird#Titanium_structures_and_skin), and it turns out that I was wrong. The SR-71 was indeed mostly made of titanium, not just the wings. So it's obviously feasable; in fact, it was quite obviously in use for decades. That means there is definitely a point where hardness and lack of brittleness are acceptible for use on an aircraft.

You learn something new every day. Anyway, now that I have a practical example, I'm starting to dream of a supersonic, titanium private jet. :D Wouldn't that be soooooo cool? (is there a "geek" emoticon anywhere??...)

[maxpower1227]

Not sure if it's been pointed out yet, but the formula for kinetic energy shown at around 8:05 is incorrect.

[beachnut]

Is dive speed different that flight speed? :confused:
The dive speed is neat; when you level off you have to slow down~! Pardox; The planes on 9/11 were going faster than they were suppose to for a 5 to 20 seconds before they were destroyed by impact. It is not as simple as the Video woo master thinks, but his ideas are better than the no plane idiots. Orange man has his own truth agenda, but it seems his mental state makes it impossible to explain what his real conclusions are; you can tell by his added BS in the Video. That video would be graded lower, due to introducing extraneous data, a fantasy foray into unexplained woo. C-

[HL7442]

DU is used to balance flight control surfaces where you need a small dense mass that can be placed forward of the hinge line. I know it was used on MD-80's and MD-11's.


I never knew that.
I wonder if the DU in the MD-11's had anything to do with pilot's calling it the Death Star or the SCUD.
The -11 was definately over powered especially when it had PW engines installed.


I also never realized Boeing may have placed DU to reduce engine flutter in the early JT9D-3A engine pylons.

[AMTMAN]

I never knew that.
I wonder if the DU in the MD-11's had anything to do with pilot's calling it the Death Star or the SCUD.
The -11 was definately over powered especially when it had PW engines installed.


I also never realized Boeing may have placed DU to reduce engine flutter in the early JT9D-3A engine pylons.

The MD-11 was called the SCUD in it's early years because they never knew where it was going to land. The aircraft had reliablity issues, it was not uncommon for the aircraft to divert enroute. It also did not meet it's range requirements. There was once a Varig MD-11 that had to divert to MCAS El Toro because the cpatain thought he did not have the fuel to make it to LAX. Another nickname for it was Mighty Disapointed-11.

[Reality Believer]

.....Another nickname for it was Mighty Disapointed-11.
And another was MD-Lemon. :D

[HL7442]

. There was once a Varig MD-11 that had to divert to MCAS El Toro because the cpatain thought he did not have the fuel to make it to LAX. Another nickname for it was Mighty Disapointed-11.



I'm sure the Marines were a bit puzzled when the Varig arrived.
Toro isn't that far to LAX so that plane must've been on fumes for him to divert.
I've always loved the DC-10 and MD-11, it's a shame that the MD got such a bad rap. Swissair 111 sealed it.

[AMTMAN]

I'm sure the Marines were a bit puzzled when the Varig arrived.
Toro isn't that far to LAX so that plane must've been on fumes for him to divert.
I've always loved the DC-10 and MD-11, it's a shame that the MD got such a bad rap. Swissair 111 sealed it.

MD did it to itself. They tried to do the MD-11 on the cheap and it came back to haunt them. If they had invested in a new wing it would have had no problem meeting it's performance goals.

[gumboot]

Isn't there a very tiny amount of Ti in the world? Recalling from the distant past, there is one beach in CA, USA, and two mines in the Urals?


Titanium is widespread, with particularly vast deposits of rutile on Australian beaches (rutile contains Titanium Oxide).

You're probably thinking of platinum and palladium - both of which are extremely rare. South Africa and Russia are the primary suppliers, with the Stillwater complex in Montana being a rare site that has both platinum and palladium.

-Gumboot

[apathoid]

MD did it to itself. They tried to do the MD-11 on the cheap and it came back to haunt them. If they had invested in a new wing it would have had no problem meeting it's performance goals.


A bigger horizental would have helped too. I've heard from several MD11 pilots that it was very difficult to land and has some very squirrely handling characteristics at low speed. The worst being that you have to pretty much manhandle the beast to get it to even respond. Not a good thing on approach. See the not one, but two, MD11s that flipped over and crashed on landing for no apparent reason.

I don't know if you've ever worked on them, AMTMAN, but they have an even worse reputation with mechanics. There are a bunch of "gotchas" that make those things really dangerous to work on. Those things are built to be flying, not sitting in the hangar...which is where they spend most of their time...Hydraulics, pneumatics and the APU are designed to be sort of "automatic", meaning that "stuff can start moving" without warning and even the APU will actually start itself if you select APU GEN on the elex panel. The first thing we do after one comes in(yes even though we got rid of them, we also sold our mx services to the new operator) is pull and tag a crapload of breakers and put the elex, hydro and pneumatic panels in manual mode.
It's the only plane we work on in which you have to have been to its initial school to work on it.

You also can't have the parking brake set when transferring fuel into the center tank or simply fuelling(or defuelling) the center tank because of the weird angle of the center mlg strut. Then there's the wet horizental concept which resulted from not meeting its initial range criteria. Another bad idea. And how could I forget the "barking dog" aux pump.

All the crazy stuff aside though, it's not a bad airplane to work on(except #2 engine changes:eek:)

[HL7442]

Apathoid what did you guys think of the 727?

[apathoid]

Apathoid what did you guys think of the 727?


I loved flying on it, but never really got to work on it. My first and only time working on it was before the last flight of our second to last 727 in service. The 737 Classic was by far my favorite airplane to work on. It seemed like it was designed by mechanics, for mechanics. Everything was easy to get to and the systems were very straight forward and easy to troubleshoot. That plane made me look good on many occasions, whereas the 777 makes me look and feel like a moron at times. :D

[HL7442]

I've heard some horror stories concerning the L1011, mainly with the RR engines. But hey it's a beauty.

[Corsair 115]

So what's the difference then between the DC-10 and the MD-11? I thought they were pretty much the same thing.

[apathoid]

I've heard some horror stories concerning the L1011, mainly with the RR engines. But hey it's a beauty.


Yeah, it was very beautiful and way ahead of it's time...and built like a tank too.

So what's the difference then between the DC-10 and the MD-11? I thought they were pretty much the same thing.

The MD11 is basically a DC-10 on steroids with winglets and a glass cockpit. Most airlines that flew the MD11 gave up on them long ago. It's pretty much been relegated to cargo duty, where it is actually a big moneymaker. UPS and FedEx both operate the MD-11 and FedEx has the largest fleet of them in the world.

It's a neat airplane in alot of respects, but it just didn't live up to its billing.

[ihaunter]

How long before someone tries to use the fact that there is depleted uranium in planes to support the nuclear weapons at ground zero theory? You know someone will.

[Reality Believer]

...
The MD11 is basically a DC-10 on steroids with winglets and a glass cockpit. Most airlines that flew the MD11 gave up on them long ago. It's pretty much been relegated to cargo duty, where it is actually a big moneymaker. UPS and FedEx both operate the MD-11 and FedEx has the largest fleet of them in the world.
It's a neat airplane in alot of respects, but it just didn't live up to its billing.
It is also 19 feet longer than a DC-10, accomplished with barrel plugs just forward and aft of the wing box section. I think the wing geometry was changed slightly with modifications to the slats and flaps, but nothing drastic. The flight engineer was eliminated, so it was theoretically more economical to fly with a crew of two.

[Reality Believer]

How long before someone tries to use the fact that there is depleted uranium in planes to support the nuclear weapons at ground zero theory? You know someone will.
Oh Great! You just HAD to let that cat out of the bag didn't you. :mad:

Here kitty, kitty ....

[AMTMAN]

A bigger horizental would have helped too. I've heard from several MD11 pilots that it was very difficult to land and has some very squirrely handling characteristics at low speed. The worst being that you have to pretty much manhandle the beast to get it to even respond. Not a good thing on approach. See the not one, but two, MD11s that flipped over and crashed on landing for no apparent reason.

I don't know if you've ever worked on them, AMTMAN, but they have an even worse reputation with mechanics. There are a bunch of "gotchas" that make those things really dangerous to work on. Those things are built to be flying, not sitting in the hangar...which is where they spend most of their time...Hydraulics, pneumatics and the APU are designed to be sort of "automatic", meaning that "stuff can start moving" without warning and even the APU will actually start itself if you select APU GEN on the elex panel. The first thing we do after one comes in(yes even though we got rid of them, we also sold our mx services to the new operator) is pull and tag a crapload of breakers and put the elex, hydro and pneumatic panels in manual mode.
It's the only plane we work on in which you have to have been to its initial school to work on it.

You also can't have the parking brake set when transferring fuel into the center tank or simply fuelling(or defuelling) the center tank because of the weird angle of the center mlg strut. Then there's the wet horizental concept which resulted from not meeting its initial range criteria. Another bad idea. And how could I forget the "barking dog" aux pump.

All the crazy stuff aside though, it's not a bad airplane to work on(except #2 engine changes:eek:)

I worked on them breifly. It's funny how MD spent money on changing things like the cockpit but kept things like servicing hydraulics the same as on the DC-10. Which of course meant climbing into left hand wheel well and hooking up to each individual system. Murphy's Law dictated that the wheel well was slick as an ice rink. Boeing planes are much easier to service. You do have to admit however it's a good looking aircraft.

[AMTMAN]

I loved flying on it, but never really got to work on it. My first and only time working on it was before the last flight of our second to last 727 in service. The 737 Classic was by far my favorite airplane to work on. It seemed like it was designed by mechanics, for mechanics. Everything was easy to get to and the systems were very straight forward and easy to troubleshoot. That plane made me look good on many occasions, whereas the 777 makes me look and feel like a moron at times. :D

Never touched a 727 myself, it was on it's way out when I showed up. On the surface the 777 can be a bit intimidating. However once you get the hang of the MAT it's no that bad. If you get a fault you just go to that ATA code and do the test for it. If it doesn't clear it will tell you what to do or give a code that you can look up in the MM. That's not to say the aircraft won't throw you a curve every now and then.