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Arkan_Wolfshade
10th December 2007, 08:33 PM
Watching it tonight and they had a "well witcher" (dowser) come out to find where they should dig there well. He was all for it. I will give him credit though; when all three sites hit bedrock about 4' down he showed it on tv and the sites hadn't panned out. Still, it is upsetting to see someone who hands out advice on survival (on Survivorman) dishing out unadulterated woo as he did with the dowser.

Double Bit Axe
10th December 2007, 08:57 PM
I watched "Off the Grid" a couple weeks ago and I felt the same way. He even tried some rationalizations after it didn't work. It's too bad not everybody is a skeptic.

manofthesea
10th December 2007, 09:29 PM
You gotta cut him some slack. Critical thinking is provably difficult at freezing temperatures.

Arkan_Wolfshade
11th December 2007, 07:42 AM
After watching the rest of the episode (and getting a good night's sleep) it's clear his stongpoint is the Survivorman show and its concept. His entire plan to go off-grid was at times well thought out, but at other times entirely too "off the cuff" thinking.

Still, I can't help but think, his acceptence of dowsing puts him at greater risk of applying similarly fallacious folk wisdom to use during a Survivorman episode. Or, perhaps, he does better research on things he plans to implement/use on it than he did on Off The Grid.

sthomson
11th December 2007, 09:35 AM
It seems, from watching the Survivorman behind-the-scenes special, that Les Stroud generally employs native experts in whatever challenge he's currently attempting. His shows seem to rely pretty heavily on what he learns from those experts. So, if the expert shows him how to safely extract honey out of a wild bee hive, then Les will attempt to do so on his show.

I've never seen Off The Grid, but I'm assuming he did the same thing: consulted with people currently living or attempting to live off-the-grid and replicating their advice. My home town was surrounded by these sorts of folks, and my family knew some of them very well. I would not hesitate to say that most off-the-grid folks in that part of the country swear by dowsing as a practice and as an art.

Regardless, I still respect Les Stroud much more than that other guy, the "Man vs. Wild" guy, whose actions in every situation seem to be the most foolhardy and dangerous one. "Here's a big, nearly-freezing cold river that leads to civilization. Should I follow the banks of it, or form a flotation device with my pack and jump on in, subjecting myself to wet conditions in a harsh environment?"

Leicontis
11th December 2007, 09:57 AM
I liked Stroud's flood-survival episode. It at least seemed to make a lot of good points, and harped on important points (like drying off, not drinking floodwater, etc.). In general, the Survivorman series is quite good, as he seems to be genuinely putting his life on the line (though he's probably got some sort of emergency beacon). AFAIK, everything he shows on regular Survivorman is as it appears (minus the fact that he has to walk back and forth repeatedly to set up a camera then walk away from it). This would suggest that he has, in fact, had some major close calls. Compare that to Bear Grylls (sp?), who spent the nights in hotels rather than in the rough, and had a camera crew (probably one with supplies and weapons) following him around.

sthomson
11th December 2007, 11:23 AM
In general, the Survivorman series is quite good, as he seems to be genuinely putting his life on the line (though he's probably got some sort of emergency beacon).

I believe he's in pretty constant radio contact with his crew. In the dogsledding episode, he was pulled out early due to an approaching storm. Same with the deserted island episode, if I remember correctly.

Yeah, Bear whatever-his-name-is is quite a phony. Completely off topic, but have you seen this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UpSlpvb1is)?

jsiv
11th December 2007, 11:28 AM
But does Les dance around naked in every single episode like Bear does?

Didn't think so!

Trakar
11th December 2007, 11:33 AM
Watching it tonight and they had a "well witcher" (dowser) come out to find where they should dig there well. He was all for it. I will give him credit though; when all three sites hit bedrock about 4' down he showed it on tv and the sites hadn't panned out. Still, it is upsetting to see someone who hands out advice on survival (on Survivorman) dishing out unadulterated woo as he did with the dowser.

The primary thing that bothers me about the show, is that they make it seem like you have to do the Flintstone thing to live "off the grid." This just isn't accurate, and certainly would be a negative portrayal to others who might otherwise consider a more independent, self-sufficient lifestyle.

Vic Vega
11th December 2007, 03:01 PM
I believe he's in pretty constant radio contact with his crew.

I think he has a satelite phone and only contacts his crew if he absolutely needs to get picked up. I don't believe that he talks to them at all, otherwise.

Dogdoctor
11th December 2007, 05:52 PM
It seems to me Les promotes the untested natural treatments used by people who don't know any better in his Survivorman show. So if he believes in dowsing it's no surprise to me.

swskeptic
18th December 2007, 01:35 PM
I doubt he'll be believing in Dowsing much longer after that.

LTC8K6
18th December 2007, 02:25 PM
I lost a little faith in him when he thought he heard a gorilla in Alaska and gave the bigfooters some ammo.

The strangest thing happened tonight when I was making my grass matt. All of a sudden a deep and very loud grunting noise from about fifty yards away in the bush brought me to my feet and put the hairs up on the back of my neck. It repeated four times and I have to say sounded…..wait for it….just like a large gorilla! No, I’m not kidding. Hopefully I’m not losing it! But I swear. That’s what it sounded like. Not like a bear at all. Like a big gorilla. I will assume it was a bear though – a mother warning her cubs about my presence. But still…..it will be an interesting sleep tonight!

historian
19th December 2007, 11:40 AM
I lost a little faith in him when he thought he heard a gorilla in Alaska and gave the bigfooters some ammo.

On the other hand, my respect for Les grew ten fold, for him making those accurate field observations and repeating them on TV, for all the world to see. My disdain for those that seek to sew seeds of doubt in regard to the subject matter to which Les speaks, continues to strengthen with every passing day.

Locknar
19th December 2007, 11:53 AM
I lost a little faith in him when he thought he heard a gorilla in Alaska and gave the bigfooters some ammo.
The next morning, didn't he mention the bear foot prints that were in the area?

It's been a while since I've seen that episode...but I seem to remember him talk about how close he was to becoming bear chow, and checkout out the various paw prints.

manofthesea
20th December 2007, 01:05 AM
I lost a little faith in him when he thought he heard a gorilla in Alaska and gave the bigfooters some ammo.

Well, if Les didn't have the cojones to leave the safety of his tent then there isn't much hope of anyone else braving the dark of night and initiating an encounter with the big guy. How would he know what a gorilla sounds like anyway? Was it beating on it's chest, going "ooh, ooh", or what?
(being a skeptic is fun, and easy)

Locknar
20th December 2007, 06:40 AM
On the other hand, my respect for Les grew ten fold, for him making those accurate field observations and repeating them on TV, for all the world to see. My disdain for those that seek to sew seeds of doubt in regard to the subject matter to which Les speaks, continues to strengthen with every passing day.
Just for the record...what is it you think Les said?

After reading his blog, and rewatching the episode, he describes a noise he does not recognize as being like a gorilla. The next morning he finds all kinds of bear tracks around….

historian
20th December 2007, 08:29 AM
Just for the record...what is it you think Les said?

After reading his blog, and rewatching the episode, he describes a noise he does not recognize as being like a gorilla. The next morning he finds all kinds of bear tracks around….

You just misrepresented what Les said and what was stated previously. This represents an inability to cope with reality. I will not answer questions that are twisted around so childishly.

historian
20th December 2007, 08:33 AM
Well, if Les didn't have the cojones to leave the safety of his tent then there isn't much hope of anyone else braving the dark of night and initiating an encounter with the big guy. How would he know what a gorilla sounds like anyway? Was it beating on it's chest, going "ooh, ooh", or what?
(being a skeptic is fun, and easy)

Perhaps Les has watched TV prior to this particular show, in which a Gorilla was shown and heard. I have heard it as well. There is no mistaking it, especially if you have night vision equpment to verify higher dimensions. Got that yet? I didn't think so.

Locknar
20th December 2007, 08:34 AM
You just misrepresented what Les said and what was stated previously. This represents an inability to cope with reality. I will not answer questions that are twisted around so childishly.
Insulting, hand waving, and avoiding the question...I'm shocked you would resort to these tactics.

The question remains...what do you think Les said?

Stitch
20th December 2007, 08:56 AM
Mike Holmes used a dowser on his home restoration program the other week to look for pipes etc. I was a bit surprised as I believe from a previous episode that they have a government department that will come out and identify the power and water lines for you and if you don't use them and hit a line you get a big fine. They didn't show the digger driver getting fried :( :D

sthomson
20th December 2007, 09:43 AM
Mike Holmes used a dowser on his home restoration program the other week to look for pipes etc. I was a bit surprised as I believe from a previous episode that they have a government department that will come out and identify the power and water lines for you and if you don't use them and hit a line you get a big fine. They didn't show the digger driver getting fried :( :D

We had the city planning office send out some employees to mark the phone lines, optic cables, and water lines running through our backyard before starting a serious landscaping project. It was free, and somewhat timely. I can't imagine why anyone would rely on a dowser to do that project.

Locknar
20th December 2007, 09:49 AM
We had the city planning office send out some employees to mark the phone lines, optic cables, and water lines running through our backyard before starting a serious landscaping project. It was free, and somewhat timely. I can't imagine why anyone would rely on a dowser to do that project.
Well...obviously the local records might be wrong, so you'd want the accuracy (and unquestionable integrity) or a dowser.

historian
20th December 2007, 11:14 AM
Insulting, hand waving, and avoiding the question...I'm shocked you would resort to these tactics.

The question remains...what do you think Les said?

Alaska, Day 5

Late Evening
Well……no luck with the net yet. But I’ll leave it out and hope for some action during the next high tide. Same goes for fishing with a line and hook. I went out in the kayak fishing for over an hour, but nothing bit. I did get out to ‘bounty bay’ for some more foraging, which keeps my spirits up. Tonight I even managed to make a short grass matt to sleep on and a hammock chair out of an old fishing net to hang on. The strangest thing happened tonight when I was making my grass matt. All of a sudden a deep and very loud grunting noise from about fifty yards away in the bush brought me to my feet and put the hairs up on the back of my neck. It repeated four times and I have to say sounded…..wait for it….just like a large gorilla! No, I’m not kidding. Hopefully I’m not losing it! But I swear. That’s what it sounded like. Not like a bear at all. Like a big gorilla. I will assume it was a bear though – a mother warning her cubs about my presence. But still…..it will be an interesting sleep tonight!

Locknar
20th December 2007, 11:23 AM
Alaska, Day 5

Late Evening
Well……no luck with the net yet. But I’ll leave it out and hope for some action during the next high tide. Same goes for fishing with a line and hook. I went out in the kayak fishing for over an hour, but nothing bit. I did get out to ‘bounty bay’ for some more foraging, which keeps my spirits up. Tonight I even managed to make a short grass matt to sleep on and a hammock chair out of an old fishing net to hang on. The strangest thing happened tonight when I was making my grass matt. All of a sudden a deep and very loud grunting noise from about fifty yards away in the bush brought me to my feet and put the hairs up on the back of my neck. It repeated four times and I have to say sounded…..wait for it….just like a large gorilla! No, I’m not kidding. Hopefully I’m not losing it! But I swear. That’s what it sounded like. Not like a bear at all. Like a big gorilla. I will assume it was a bear though – a mother warning her cubs about my presence. But still…..it will be an interesting sleep tonight!
And from "just like a large gorilla" you concluded he really meant Bigfoot, and otherwise discounted the bear tracks he found around his camp site in the morning?

I see....

manofthesea
20th December 2007, 07:41 PM
And from "just like a large gorilla" you concluded he really meant Bigfoot, and otherwise discounted the bear tracks he found around his camp site in the morning?

I see....

Are there any photographs or casts of these supposed bear tracks?

Locknar
21st December 2007, 08:59 AM
Are there any photographs or casts of these supposed bear tracks?
Not that I specifically recall...the next morning, he simply makes a comment to the effect of "wow...from all the bear tracks around I came really close to being bear chow" (my paraphrase).

historian
21st December 2007, 10:14 AM
And from "just like a large gorilla" you concluded he really meant Bigfoot, and otherwise discounted the bear tracks he found around his camp site in the morning?

I see....

I have heard the Bigfoot snort, perhaps half a dozen times. How do I know that it was a bigfoot? Process of elimination since no large flesh and blood animal was visible at the location from which the snorting was coming from, as viewed with and without the assistance of Gen 3 Select Alpha night vision that can spot a zit on the face of a Bigfoot at 100 yards, in the same conditions where you cannot see you hand in front of your face. Snorting does not appear to be aggressive/territorial at all. It is more like the Bigfoot equivalent of "whatsup?" or "what's hap'n bro?" or "you stink, I hope I can get all your stink molecules out of my nostrils". Foot stomps are more territorial, but nothing to be concerned about. Rocks thrown into the ground at the Bigfoots feet, are a big step up. Rocks thrown in front of you or near by, are a step up from that. Rocks aimed at your head are a step up from that. Every appendage ripped from your now bleeding stump of a torso, would be a step up from that.

manofthesea
21st December 2007, 10:18 AM
Not that I specifically recall...the next morning, he simply makes a comment to the effect of "wow...from all the bear tracks around I came really close to being bear chow" (my paraphrase).

Well, that doesn't settle it either way, then.
But, may I recommend that anyone interested in the big guy, check out the new Janice Carter thread at BFF. The first "in depth" researcher to really divulge the "truth" about bigfoot. She really goes deeper in her descriptions than anyone that I've seen. I have a problem with the telepathy part, but I've never communicated with one either vocally or mentally. As someone who had an encounter with one, she's the one researcher that I feel has all her 'ducks in a row'.

But, I've never researched any (signed) material.

LTC8K6
21st December 2007, 10:22 AM
Mots, you don't do parodies well...

Janice Carter indeed!

Locknar
21st December 2007, 04:05 PM
Well, that doesn't settle it either way, then.

I never said it did. However, a comment "sounds like a gorilla" is hardly conclusive, rock solid, 100% indisputable proof of anything either.

Rather, seems like a HUGE, GIGANTIC, ENORMOUS deductive leap to me and only shows how desperate some "Bigfooters" are to twist or otherwise misinterpret things.

This while ignoring what he said the next morning (ie. "bear tracks")..."Bigfooters" will take his word (and twist it) when it meets their agenda, but discount it when it fails to support their agenda.

Locknar
21st December 2007, 04:12 PM
I have heard the Bigfoot snort, perhaps half a dozen times. How do I know that it was a bigfoot? Process of elimination since no large flesh and blood animal was visible at the location from which the snorting was coming from, as viewed with and without the assistance of Gen 3 Select Alpha night vision that can spot a zit on the face of a Bigfoot at 100 yards, in the same conditions where you cannot see you hand in front of your face. Snorting does not appear to be aggressive/territorial at all. It is more like the Bigfoot equivalent of "whatsup?" or "what's hap'n bro?" or "you stink, I hope I can get all your stink molecules out of my nostrils". Foot stomps are more territorial, but nothing to be concerned about. Rocks thrown into the ground at the Bigfoots feet, are a big step up. Rocks thrown in front of you or near by, are a step up from that. Rocks aimed at your head are a step up from that. Every appendage ripped from your now bleeding stump of a torso, would be a step up from that.
Of course, overlooking that he was in his tent...and no amount of night vision equipment will help him (or anyone) see though his tent walls.

I've noticed a frequent theme in your posts, which is they all seem (at some point) to mention how violent they ("Bigfoot") are suppose to be. Ripping limbs from bodies, destroying trees, etc.; how can I get a "Bigfoot" to attack me in such a way? I've asked before, what is your 100% foolproof plan that would get a Bigfoot to show up and attack me?

historian
21st December 2007, 08:08 PM
Of course, overlooking that he was in his tent...and no amount of night vision equipment will help him (or anyone) see though his tent walls.

I've noticed a frequent theme in your posts, which is they all seem (at some point) to mention how violent they ("Bigfoot") are suppose to be. Ripping limbs from bodies, destroying trees, etc.; how can I get a "Bigfoot" to attack me in such a way? I've asked before, what is your 100% foolproof plan that would get a Bigfoot to show up and attack me?

Don't you get it?. I do not aid or abet anybody, in their harassment, taunting, and/or assault on any inter-dimensional people. Get a life! And move out of your parents house!

Locknar
21st December 2007, 09:17 PM
Don't you get it?. I do not aid or abet anybody, in their harassment, taunting, and/or assault on any inter-dimensional people. Get a life! And move out of your parents house!
Ah...so all the camp fire stories you've told were just that, stories? I'm shocked.

Of course, another possibility you won't "aid or abet anybody" is because "Bigfoot", or other inter-dimensional creatures, don't exist thus you can't. You are welcome to refute this with actual evidence to support your claims....but we all know you won't, because your various made-claims (ie. Carter, Hawking, Rather, etc.) have no basis in fact.

ETA: I'll also take your reply to say "You are right...I read to much into Les Stroud's blog entry. The noise he heard could have very well just been bears, especially since in the morning all he saw was bear tracks."

manofthesea
23rd December 2007, 03:08 PM
I never said it did. However, a comment "sounds like a gorilla" is hardly conclusive, rock solid, 100% indisputable proof of anything either.

Rather, seems like a HUGE, GIGANTIC, ENORMOUS deductive leap to me and only shows how desperate some "Bigfooters" are to twist or otherwise misinterpret things.

This while ignoring what he said the next morning (ie. "bear tracks")..."Bigfooters" will take his word (and twist it) when it meets their agenda, but discount it when it fails to support their agenda.

He's one of the most proven outdoorsmen in North America. His statement, in and of itself, is worthy of consideration. Undoubtedly, there are bears in that location also. Many animals may make similar "sounds", but in the immediate moment his mind deduced that it may sound like a gorilla. A person with the knowledge and survival skills of his doesn't make outrageous deductions and decisions when trekking.

Anyway, can someone direct me where he made those statements? Was it an episode on his show, or on a forum? That would probably help my argument.

Locknar
23rd December 2007, 03:39 PM
He's one of the most proven outdoorsmen in North America. His statement, in and of itself, is worthy of consideration. Undoubtedly, there are bears in that location also. Many animals may make similar "sounds", but in the immediate moment his mind deduced that it may sound like a gorilla. A person with the knowledge and survival skills of his doesn't make outrageous deductions and decisions when trekking.

Anyway, can someone direct me where he made those statements? Was it an episode on his show, or on a forum? That would probably help my argument.
His blog entry can be found here (http://www.lesstroudonline.com/blog/?p=14#more-14).

He comments the morning of Day 6 (on the show, not in the blog) about all the bear tracks around this camp and comming close to being "bear chow" (my paraphrase).

CFLarsen
23rd December 2007, 03:57 PM
These "off-the-grid"ers are a wacky bunch.

Sure, the Walden-cum-Survivalist life sounds very appealing. Smelly, dirty, bloody inconvenient (ain't soft toilet paper nice?), but that has its ups, too. Clean air, no noisy neighbors. No Oprah either.

But, what will they do, when they have a cardiac arrest? Or feel a lump where there shouldn't be a lump? Where do they go for their vaccinations?

Do they think that over 6 billion people can go live in the mountains or in other remote areas where there's enough wildlife to feed them?

It sounds very much to me like "Oh, I will go live the right way. The rest of you can just sustain civilization, while I sneer at you. If I get cancer, I'll go to the hospital, where I, naturally, will insist on my right to be treated with the best civilization can offer."

Arkan_Wolfshade
28th December 2007, 06:23 AM
These "off-the-grid"ers are a wacky bunch.

Sure, the Walden-cum-Survivalist life sounds very appealing. Smelly, dirty, bloody inconvenient (ain't soft toilet paper nice?), but that has its ups, too. Clean air, no noisy neighbors. No Oprah either.

But, what will they do, when they have a cardiac arrest? Or feel a lump where there shouldn't be a lump? Where do they go for their vaccinations?

Do they think that over 6 billion people can go live in the mountains or in other remote areas where there's enough wildlife to feed them?

It sounds very much to me like "Oh, I will go live the right way. The rest of you can just sustain civilization, while I sneer at you. If I get cancer, I'll go to the hospital, where I, naturally, will insist on my right to be treated with the best civilization can offer."
Quite a leap to go from wanting to produce whatever energy one needs onesself and reduce waste; to being a complete hunter-gatherer.

manofthesea
28th December 2007, 07:11 PM
His blog entry can be found here (http://www.lesstroudonline.com/blog/?p=14#more-14).

He comments the morning of Day 6 (on the show, not in the blog) about all the bear tracks around this camp and comming close to being "bear chow" (my paraphrase).

Thanks for clearing that up. I watched the Alaska episode and didn't notice any gorilla sounds. What really got me was watching him eat that rotten fish. I realise that he didn't want to be perceived as 'savage', but it would have been much easier to just sharpen a stick and spear a salmon.