Homeopathy HAS to be everywhere

[jj]

Considering the number of water mollecules in a person, how mobile they are, and so on, it would seem to me that the individual atoms in the body have been, err, "exposed" or whatever it is they call it to most everything on the planet.

Whatever...

Sorry, in a bad mood. Homeopaths annoy me, what a flippin' crock of, err, sorry, organic fertilizer.

Let me get this straight. I take mole of something, and put it into 1000 moles of water. Then I dilute that by a factor of 1000 until I get to a dilution ratio of 10^30. Lessee, 6.02 x 10^23/10^30.

And it somehow captures the "essence". Err. And the essense of the bottle, and the dropper, and the water processing plant, and the fly that landed in the water in the reservoir, and the bass that excreted the remains of the fly, oh and I forgot the horse that relieved itself, that evaporated, and then came down as rain...

Look, why ANYBODY can believe in homeopathy is just beyond me. I just don't get it.

(end of rant now)

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by jj
Look, why ANYBODY can believe in homeopathy is just beyond me. I just don't get it.
Placebo effect...

Of course placeboes dont cure cancer do they...

[jj]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Placebo effect...

Of course placeboes dont cure cancer do they...

Ya, ya, ya. I know. I do perception research after all...

BUT HOW CAN ANYBODY SWALLOW THE "REASONING"?????

AAIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by jj
Considering the number of water mollecules in a person, how mobile they are, and so on, it would seem to me that the individual atoms in the body have been, err, "exposed" or whatever it is they call it to most everything on the planet.

Whatever...

Sorry, in a bad mood.


I am confused by the essense thing too. Wouldn't water everywhere be extremely powerful medicine for some afflication or another??

Do you think homeopathy should continue to be scientifically tested, or not?

[jj]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


I am confused by the essense thing too. Wouldn't water everywhere be extremely powerful medicine for some afflication or another??

Do you think homeopathy should continue to be scientifically tested, or not? [/B]

You'd think that it would cure everything in one shot, given the travels of the average atoms in your average molecule of H20.

Test it? How? Now some of the practictioners are claiming that observing the results makes there BE no results.

Test what? I just did a test in my original article and it FAILS.

According to the idea of "essence" one drop of water would have more than enough essence to cure positively EVERYTHING.

Or does it have to be water with some magic spell cast over it by a human being with a magic water-dropper-outof. (i.e. a blessed pipette...???)

Look, Ta'i, the whole idea fails the most basic of gedankenexperiments. Every drop of water should cure EVERYTHING!

Yes, you can test this, if you want. I'll be glad to look further if and when a DECENT, unbiased (note, bias does not have to be deliberate, please, it can be purely accidental and unintentional) test suggests a real, solid effect.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I am confused by the essense thing too. Wouldn't water everywhere be extremely powerful medicine for some afflication or another??
Its only an extremely powerful medicine when you are trying to cure dehydration.

Do you think homeopathy should continue to be scientifically tested, or not?
I agree, its a bit premature to call it "bunk" yet, but it doesnt look very promising.

Homeopathy should be kept in the testing phase before it gets a place in "alternative" medicine... I give it a week (Is there a such thing as "alternative medicine malpractice"?)

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by jj

You'd think that it would cure everything in one shot, given the travels of the average atoms in your average molecule of H20.


That's true. I'd be interested in knowing how to calculate the distance travelled by an average H20 molecule or the atoms.


Now some of the practictioners are claiming that observing the results makes there BE no results.


Yikes, that certainly does make it difficult!! :)


Yes, you can test this, if you want. I'll be glad to look further if and when a DECENT, unbiased (note, bias does not have to be deliberate, please, it can be purely accidental and unintentional) test suggests a real, solid effect.

That seems a good way to proceed.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Its only an extremely powerful medicine when you are trying to cure dehydration.


LOL. :)

It is good medicine for anything else? What have the studies said?

[CFLarsen]

T'ai Chi,

Given your comments here, how would you test homeopathy?

[jj]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


That's true. I'd be interested in knowing how to calculate the distance travelled by an average H20 molecule or the atoms.


Whoof. I did this once.

The answer was quite striking, except for water trapped in rock, etc, the answer is 'pretty much everywhere' in less time than one would expect.

Bearing in mind that's geological time. If one of the H's gets tied up in a fat molecule on my waistline it's probably going to be there a while...

But the point holds quite nicely, those atoms have been around a LONG time, and have to have collected a LOT of "essence" if there's any at all.

Now you could argue about decay, but you still won't get anywhere. Consider, that water comes in a bottle. Does that make the water heal cuts from glass? Err........ It had a lid, probably with a cardboard/wax or plastic stopper. Does it cure paper cuts and scrapes from plastic?

Etc, etc....

[jj]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


LOL. :)

It is good medicine for anything else? What have the studies said? [/B]

Both the effects and symptoms of some diseases are mitigated by drinking water, so I'm sure that water is good for more than simple dehydration.

Is that what you meant?

[WildCat]

My girlfriend gets Cat Fancy magazine. It has an article in the issue that came a few days ago called Alternative Medicine: Miracle or Quackery? Homeopathy is featured prominently. As you can probably guess, there is very little information presented to refute the homeopath vet's claims. I am so angry about this! Animals don't even get the benefit of the placebo effect, I wish all these vets practicing homeopathy were banned from receiving any real medical treatment themselves when they get sick. "Alternative medicine only for you, sorry! But I'm sure it will cure your cancer... if it doesn't it's you're fault."

[reprise]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


LOL. :)

It is good medicine for anything else? What have the studies said? [/B]

Water is an extremely powerful medicine when used in the brewing of beer. :)

[Dogwood]

Hmmmn. I think I can come up with a pro-homeopathy explanation as to why any drop of water doesn't cure everything. Work with me now, this is gonna take a while....

As I recall, Benivieste suggested that water molecules form a "shell" around the original "active" molecules during the homeopathic shaking process, mimicking the structure of the original molecule.

(If I am remembering correctly, this is rubbish of course, as an H20 shell would be larger than the original molecule, and therefore not fit into the active site of various enzymes or receptors. Nor would it have the same charges, or hydrogen bonding or Van der Waal forces etc, but back to unreality...)

Anyway, we must remember that water molecules are not entirely static. H20 frequently gives up an electron here or gains a hydrogen atom there. A glass of pure water will only be about 98% H20. The rest will be Hydrogen ions, peroxide, HO- ions, etc. (Chemists feel free to correct me here.) So, over time, there is ample opportunity for the "magic shell" of the homeopathic memory molecule to break apart, requiring your friendly neighborhood homeopath to shake it up all over again.

Crap.

I hate it when I have to do their work for them.

[jj]

Originally posted by mark tidwell
So, over time, there is ample opportunity for the "magic shell" of the homeopathic memory molecule to break apart, requiring your friendly neighborhood homeopath to shake it up all over again.

Crap.

I hate it when I have to do their work for them.

Consider, then, homeopathic medicine would only cure things like "glass" and "plastic", or "paper" or whatever the medicine is kept in.

The kind of "decay" you talk about, even if it existed at all, would be well-nigh instantaneous at STP.

[Ed]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


I am confused by the essense thing too. Wouldn't water everywhere be extremely powerful medicine for some afflication or another??

Do you think homeopathy should continue to be scientifically tested, or not? [/B]

You have actually hit the nail on the head, except backwards. Water should CAUSE everything. There should be outbreaks of every evil thing that can be bournew by water including dysentery, typhus, radiation poisoning and so on. We should all be sick.

What a load of crap.

[Dogwood]

Originally posted by jj


Consider, then, homeopathic medicine would only cure things like "glass" and "plastic", or "paper" or whatever the medicine is kept in.

Makes sense at first, as the water molecules would have more exposure to the inside of the container, but remember that homeopathy requires the water be vigorously shaken, which may not take place once packaged. Also the packaged water, since that all it really is, is never diluted. Not sure how that's supposed to affect thing.

The kind of "decay" you talk about, even if it existed at all, would be well-nigh instantaneous at STP.

Not so much decay, as a constant exchange of electrons and hydrogen atoms.

[BTox]

Originally posted by jj
Look, why ANYBODY can believe in homeopathy is just beyond me. I just don't get it.

(end of rant now)

Yeah the so-called "Law" of similars is ridiculous enough. Even more so is the notion that taking a substance that causes certain symptoms and diluting the bejeesus out of it actually makes it more potent. Yet every time I've conducted an in vitro or in vivo dose response study, the more dilute the drug tested, the less efficacy I've seen. I must be doing something wrong... :rolleyes:

And here's another peeve - some of the "remedies" are very common, completely inocuous substances like silicea aka silica aka beach sand - so how much sand did someone eat before they began experiencing symptoms? :rolleyes:

[Dub]

How do homeopaths make sure that the water they use is pure? If its just ordinary tap water then that should be, according to the logic of the homeopaths, already be massivly contaminated. If they claim water has a memory, is there ever a point at which this memory is full? If so, it would most certainly already be full by the time it enters the homeopaths hands.

Btw, very good point JJ. I'd like to see how homeopaths answer it.

[T'ai Chi]

The confusing part is that the water is supposed to contain every bad thing, but at the same time the water is supposed to contain every cure for those bad things.

[Ed]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
The confusing part is that the water is supposed to contain every bad thing, but at the same time the water is supposed to contain every cure for those bad things.

Naturally. When you deal with lies they do tend to get confused.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Ed

Naturally. When you deal with lies they do tend to get confused.

Although, to play devil's advocate, I guess something special happens only when the water is shaken, not stirred.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Dub
How do homeopaths make sure that the water they use is pure? If its just ordinary tap water then that should be, according to the logic of the homeopaths, already be massivly contaminated. If they claim water has a memory, is there ever a point at which this memory is full? If so, it would most certainly already be full by the time it enters the homeopaths hands.

They've given up on that one. Now we're into quantum mechanics. Something called patient-practitioner-remedy entanglement.

The papers are extremely long and extremely boring and extremely short on real understanding of quantum theory. They could easily be mistaken for rather bad spoofs, but they're not. They're totally research-free speculation which goes like this:

"Homoeopathy seems to be an effect without a cause, or at least where there is no physical connection between cause and effect. Oh, doesn't that sound a bit like what those quantum physicists say happens at the subatomic level? So maybe that's how homoeopathy works, at the macroscopic level."

Total BS of couse, but it sounds impressive to the casual observer. The actual interesting bit about it is that in this theory the "intent" of the practitioner is a vital ingredient. This thus explains why blind trials have no effect, or just the same effect as placebo.

I like the version which says that in effect the homoeopath is like a magician, and the remedy is like a magic spell which magically conveys the "intention" of the practitioner to the waiting patient. This is really and truly a serious paper written in a serious journal by a serious homoeopath. You just couldn't make it up.

It's really cool. It brings in all these stories about the patient getting better before even taking the remedy, just by the effect of the homoeopath "understanding" the condition and visualising the correct remedy. Or the homoeopath who just writes the name of the remedy on a piece of paper and places this face down over a glass of water (does he think the water has eyes?), then has the patient drink the water. This apparently works as well (or maybe as badly? ;) ) as all the diluting and succussing. The really important thing, it is now recognised in the most advanced homoeopathic circles, is the intent and belief of the homoeopath.

Then when you accuse them of practising witchcraft, they get all huffy. Beats me why.

Rolfe.

[Ed]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


Although, to play devil's advocate, I guess something special happens only when the water is shaken, not stirred.


Only if you are James Bond

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by mark tidwell
H20 frequently gives up an electron here or gains a hydrogen atom there. A glass of pure water will only be about 98% H20. The rest will be Hydrogen ions, peroxide, HO- ions, etc. (Chemists feel free to correct me here.)

2% of pure water isn't water? That sounds extremely high to me, given that the dissociation constant of water is 1E-14, which means that the concentration of hydronium (and hydroxide) ions in water would be 1E-7M. For reference, just calculating the molar concentration of water using its formula weight and density gives you 56M.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist


2% of pure water isn't water? That sounds extremely high to me, given that the dissociation constant of water is 1E-14, which means that the concentration of hydronium (and hydroxide) ions in water would be 1E-7M. For reference, just calculating the molar concentration of water using its formula weight and density gives you 56M.

"So it is as clear as the summer's sun"

Henry V, Act1, Scene 1


To put it another way: What in the wide world of sports are you talkin' about, boy?

[Quasi]

As I have mentioned before, many homeopaths make their own, or have their medicines made in pharmacies using a mortar and pestle. Anyone here see the huge problem? No matter how hard you try to clean the mortar, residues of everything made in it will end up in the next mixture. Actually, the more you clean it the lower the concentration. Upon potentization, this should yield highly impure therapies. The response from homeopaths? None.

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by Ed

What in the wide world of sports are you talkin' about, boy?

That's why they call it a "back of the envelope" calculation, son. Best I could do with only a minute left before class.

In short, water's only about 0.0000002% dissociated, not 2%.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist


That's why they call it a "back of the envelope" calculation, son. Best I could do with only a minute left before class.

In short, water's only about 0.0000002% dissociated, not 2%.

Boy, where I come from you'd be an inch from a whuppin', layin that sass on me. Now what you mean diss-oh-sea-ted boy? Answer right sharp an no sass, mind. Wut the hell, I never heard such buuuuulllllllllllllllshiet in my born days. Disocated what?

Sheeeeeeeeet.

[jj]

Originally posted by Ed


"So it is as clear as the summer's sun"

Henry V, Act1, Scene 1


To put it another way: What in the wide world of sports are you talkin' about, boy?

If we have "pure water", i.e. not too many dissolved solids, he's saying that a very few of the molecules will be ionized at a given time.

It's well under 2%. I had noticed that as well, but figured it didn't matter in this context.

Since the molecules that are ionized (disassociated) at any given time will change rapidly, it doesn't take that long for each molecule to become temporarily disassociated into H30+ and OH-, or if you prefer H+ and OH-, if I remember right, but ...

But a good question that I should know the answer to (but have forgotten) is "how long does it take until a given atom, picked at random, on average, is disassociated at STP". As I recall it's not long.

[jj]

Originally posted by Rolfe


They've given up on that one. Now we're into quantum mechanics. Something called patient-practitioner-remedy entanglement.

Rolfe.

Okaaaaaaaaayyy.... I guess those patients and practitioners are way close to each other, eh?
:D
DeBroglie, eat your heart out!
:mad:
I hadn't heard that one, but it sounds about as likely as my car tunneling its way out of the garage this morning before I open the door.

I know it's not you who came up with this, and it's not you supporting it, but do you have any idea where they come up with this stuff?

[HarryKeogh]

me and my brother took a non-credit accounting class at a community college to brush up on our skills since we run a business together.

the professor went around the room asking why everyone was taking the class. the woman next to us said she wanted to learn some basic accounting to help her in her homepathy business. my brother leans to me and whispers in my ear "oh, so you rip off people for a living".

i cracked up, she gave me the dirtiest look i have ever seen in my life.

ok, guess you had to be there.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by jj


Okaaaaaaaaayyy.... I guess those patients and practitioners are way close to each other, eh?
:D
DeBroglie, eat your heart out!
:mad:
I hadn't heard that one, but it sounds about as likely as my car tunneling its way out of the garage this morning before I open the door.

I know it's not you who came up with this, and it's not you supporting it, but do you have any idea where they come up with this stuff?

Patient-practitioner-remedy (PPR) entanglement. Part 1: a qualitative, non-local metaphor for homeopathy based on quantum theory. (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6WXX-471VFTY-8-1&_cdi=7170&_orig=browse&_coverDate=10%2F31%2F2002&_sk=999089995&view=c&wchp=dGLbVzb-lSztb&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_userid=10&md5=41669b75d0bf7b53e59fa1c3391c59db&ie=f.pdf)

Patient-practitioner-remedy (PPR) entanglement. Part 2: extending the metaphor for homeopathy using molecular quantum theory. (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6WXX-47MJXPV-6-1&_cdi=7170&_orig=browse&_coverDate=01%2F31%2F2003&_sk=999079998&view=c&wchp=dGLbVtb-lSzBA&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_userid=10&md5=8588da3d7fcd266bcd7fcc470e327ce6&ie=f.pdf)

Patient-practitioner-remedy (PPR) entanglement. Part 3: refining the quantum metaphor for homeopathy. (http://http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6WXX-490360P-8-S&_cdi=7170&_orig=browse&_coverDate=07%2F31%2F2003&_sk=999079996&view=c&wchp=dGLbVzz-lSzBA&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_userid=10&md5=81ddf19031cf1823501a1faa53b53359&ie=f.pdf)

Magic of signs: a non-local interpretation of homeopathy. (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6WXX-45WYKJT-5T-1&_cdi=7170&_orig=browse&_coverDate=07%2F31%2F2000&_sk=999109996&view=c&wchp=dGLbVtz-lSzBk&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_userid=10&md5=16293d2963376eae5bf757362ecdecce&ie=f.pdf) (This one was so surreal I actually emailed the author to ask if he was taking the p*ss - he not only told me he was deadly serious, he attached two more papers along much the same lines!)

What is the therapeutically active ingredient of homeopathic potencies? (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6WXX-490360P-7-14&_cdi=7170&_orig=browse&_coverDate=07%2F31%2F2003&_sk=999079996&view=c&wchp=dGLbVzz-lSzBA&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_userid=10&md5=e6aa23984f83301d15f65e13d5731a49&ie=f.pdf)

They're all very much up on Heisenberg, but when one of the papers starts to go on about Hilbert space, you know it's time to have a cold shower.

I brought this up also in another thread going on at the moment in the science, technology, medicine forum, called something like "What is Spin?", and some interesting stuff came out of that.

Basically what seems to be going on is that the really cutting-edge guys have realised not only that Benveniste was a bust, but that it looks very much as if there's no rational physical explanation for the effects they think they see from diluted water.

They have also realised something else the rest of us knew all along. The clinical trials, done properly, show no effect.

The thing is, they're utterly and immovably convinced that the stuff really works when they give it to patients. Why? Because they couldn't possibly be deluding themselves, they're great physicians, doncha know, and anyway, the only explanation for why the marks keep coming back for more is that it actually works. The fact that real medicine does lots of things which are self-evident and obvious even to the sceptic, and really has made some very serious conditions into minor inconveniences, while they can't ever produce the same miracle twice and have to sweat the statistics to see anything at all it a group trial, doesn't faze them at all.

So how do you create a theory that will encompass all that? Well, it's the effect of the mind of the practitioner. Walach just says it's magic, with a bit of quantum dressing up, while Milgrom goes on and on and on and on and on.... about quantum entanglement.

These papers I linked to all have one thing in common - they contain no experimental data at all. They're pure fantasy. Milgrom admits he's just describing a metaphor. But nevertheless, now when people who prefer to prescribe real medicine to their patients challenge the professional woo-woos who push the "natural" solution, what do we get? We're told that the great Dr. Milgrom of Imperial College is doing all this wonderful research which is demonstrating that quantum theory explains homoeopathy.

The really sad thing is, these are educated people with medical and veterinary degrees, but they really believe this garbage.

Rolfe.

[jj]

Originally posted by Rolfe

These papers I linked to all have one thing in common - they contain no experimental data at all. They're pure fantasy.

Argle bargle blblblblblblblblblblblbl!

So, with the "mind of the practitioner" we're into "theraputic touch via dirty water"???

Or something like that?


The really sad thing is, these are educated people with medical and veterinary degrees, but they really believe this garbage.

Rolfe.

***sigh***

Yeah.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by jj


Therapeutic Touch via dirty water?


Yeah, that's about it. Except the water's quite clean, I think, and usually you don't take the water, just a lactose pellet that had some of the water evaporate from it once.

The remedy is in effect the magic spell which conveys the intent of the practitioner to the healing of the patient.

The homoeopaths haven't got there yet, but an anthropologist I know thinks they'll soon realise that the better you are the less you need the physical remedy, and you won't be able to tell it from faith healing.

Oh, those references are such an education!

Rolfe.

[Dogwood]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist


2% of pure water isn't water? That sounds extremely high to me, given that the dissociation constant of water is 1E-14, which means that the concentration of hydronium (and hydroxide) ions in water would be 1E-7M. For reference, just calculating the molar concentration of water using its formula weight and density gives you 56M.

I will happily defer to your knowledge on this. (My Chemistry minor doesn't get much of a work-out these days).

[jj]

Originally posted by Occasional Chemist


That's why they call it a "back of the envelope" calculation, son. Best I could do with only a minute left before class.

In short, water's only about 0.0000002% dissociated, not 2%.

So, in pure water, about how long would one individual molecule have to go (mean, please) before it was disassociated, and for about how long does one stay disassociated.

I KNEW the answer to this once. (sigh)

[xouper]

Rolfe: ... usually you don't take the water, just a lactose pellet that had some of the water evaporate from it once.May I ask, is this how it is usually done by homeopaths who make their own remedies?

On the net, many homeopathic remedies are also available in the form of one ounce vials of water (a convenient size for quickly estimating how many molecules of active ingredient, since one molecule per ounce of water is a dilution of 24X or 12C).

[BillyTK]

My wife uses Bach's Rescue Remedy for travel sickness, and because of the relief she gets, I'm not going to risk destroying the benefits she gets by explaining to her that it's a placebo effect (although I suspect she realises this but doesn't care, because she's not the greatest of travellers).

Anyway, in the interest of science (and preserving our wallpaper) I thought it would be useful to test the alleged properties of Bach's on our kitten, which should rule out any placebo effect. I'll use a repeated measures design, with boiled water as the control. I'll use our older cat Gizzy in the trials to increase the sample size, although I'm not too sure how I'd observe any calming effects in her, as she is literally so laid back, she's horizontal. I will report back later with my results...

[Ed]

I'd sorta like a yes or no on this.

Does all this mean that I can create an intoxicant by diluting down vodka? Should be easy to test.

[Occasional Chemist]

Originally posted by jj


So, in pure water, about how long would one individual molecule have to go (mean, please) before it was disassociated, and for about how long does one stay disassociated.

I KNEW the answer to this once. (sigh)

It seems that the mean lifetime of an individual water molecule is on the order of 12 hours, while the resultant ions only hang around 1/1000 of a second.

(This is from some old biochemistry notes, as I haven't done that sort of calculation for a while...)