God hates fags.......why does it always revolve around sex????

[Ralph]

I was listening to Howard Stearn this A.M........He had some woman on----a lawyer named Shirley----who was the daughter of the man behind the "god hates fags" website.

The woman seemed to sincerely believe that homosexuality should be a crime punishable by death. She also felt the WTC disaster was something the victims somehow brought upon themselves. It was God's punishment for their "sinfull ways".

While agreeing that people who repent--will be allowed into heaven.....she also made it clear that this does not include "fags".

If Heinrich Himmler repents--he gets the get out of hell free card.
If Joseph Stalin repents---get out of hell for free.........same for Pol Pot........The "fags" tho----are screwed.

I guess my point is the woman seemed to feel that of all the "sins" of man---NOTHING is worse than those related to sex.

What about lying....stealing.....murder......eating meat on Friday........you NEVER hear the preachers wailing against this....it's always about sex.

The woman btw--had 11 kids---so we know she had sex at least 11 times in her life (unless their were mult. births). Even if it's just for procreation.....she still does it............why are these people so damned obsessed with sex????????? I'm not gay---but I could care less who is------it's an enormous non-issue for me.

What is the psychology behind the obsession these people have with sex/sin.....................????...............

[Jet Grind]

Originally posted by Ralph
I was listening to Howard Stearn this A.M........He had some woman on----a lawyer named Shirley----who was the daughter of the man behind the "god hates fags" website.

I think that would be Shirley Phelps, the daughter of Fred Phelps (that's only an inference, I'm not sure). I'm exteremly surprised she agreed to go on a show like Stern's.

Originally posted by Ralph
The woman seemed to sincerely believe that homosexuality should be a crime punishable by death.

Yep, that's a Phelps alright. Psycho.

Originally posted by Ralph
She also felt the WTC disaster was something the victims somehow brought upon themselves. It was God's punishment for their "sinfull ways".

Not surprisingly, there's no logic in that. European countries are much more secular and progressively liberal than the United State's is. If there's anybody to attack, it's them. What it really was was the result of our horrendous foriegn policy.

Originally posted by Ralph
While agreeing that people who repent--will be allowed into heaven.....she also made it clear that this does not include "fags".

If Heinrich Himmler repents--he gets the get out of hell free card. If Joseph Stalin repents---get out of hell for free.........same for Pol Pot........The "fags" tho----are screwed.

Yet another non-surprising statement, this person reads the Bible selectively. I guess Jesus' little commandment about not judging others doesn't apply to her. She must be one of those "special Christians", sort of like celebrities that preach gun controll measures but own guns themselves.

Originally posted by Ralph
I guess my point is the woman seemed to feel that of all the "sins" of man---NOTHING is worse than those related to sex.

What about lying....stealing.....murder......eating meat on Friday........you NEVER hear the preachers wailing against this....it's always about sex.

Quite an astute observation.

Originally posted by Ralph
What is the psychology behind the obsession these people have with sex/sin.....................????...............

I guess Christian's just have something against pleasure. Can anyone think of anything else?

[jj]

Originally posted by Ralph
IWhat is the psychology behind the obsession these people have with sex/sin.....................????...............

The glib answer is jealosy. In some cases I think it's more than glib.

The more real answer, I think, is that the rules were set in order to get the "true believer" to outbreed the infidels, ergo all sorts of rules to make babies.

[Ralph]

Howard asked why she seemd so angry and hatefull toward everything. He asked her "Don't you ever have any fun"..

She responded by saying she had 11 children. Every waking moment of her life was an absolute joy with 11 children running around the house.

Don't get me wrong--I raised 3 kids myself....but the thought of ELEVEN of them!!!!........that's my idea of hell..............

[Marc]

I'm exteremly surprised she agreed to go on a show like Stern's.

That is the great thing about Phelps, his bigotry and hatred is right up front for all to see. He is not in any way embarassed by it, and apparently neither is his daughter.

The ones to watch out for are the Falwells and Robertsons who probably believe the same thing as Phelps, but have enough sence to not let it be known to the general public. One more reason to support free speach for hate groups, so you can easily identify them!

[Shinytop]

This is a no brainer. Religion has always been about control. Sex is the one of the strongest urges mankind has once he has shelter and is not hungry. So religion <strike>wants</strike> needs to control sex to control its believers. And, as I am sure you know, they want to control heterosexuality as well as homosexuality. Yes, it almost always comes down to control or profit. With the church it's about controlling the profit.

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred


In fact, Fred Phelps was once one of the good guys. He was outspokenly for "Negro" rights back when that took considerable courage for a white preacher in Kansas to take such a stand.

My theory is that he simply went insane:<ul>
Picketing funerals.
Calling the Southern Baptists a "fag church" because they say that "fags" can get saved.
Seriously equating Bob Dole to Darth Vader.
etc etc etc
[/list]


Freud (if he were here, and I am in no way claiming that I channel Freud.) might speculate that Mr. Phelps experienced some homoerotic pleasure (or fantasy) and that his "hatred" of homosexuals is really a reflection of his deep need to keep his attraction to men out of his own awareness.

la la la....

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
In fact, Fred Phelps was once one of the good guys. He was outspokenly for "Negro" rights back when that took considerable courage for a white preacher in Kansas to take such a stand.

I think it was telling that, in the Stern interview this morning, Shirley said that blacks can't help what color their skin was. Seemed to be inferring that there's still something wrong w/ blacks, but it's not their fault.

The Phelps family one twisted bunch, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that Fred is a closet homosexual.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker

Freud (if he were here, and I am in no way claiming that I channel Freud.) might speculate that Mr. Phelps experienced some homoerotic pleasure (or fantasy) and that his "hatred" of homosexuals is really a reflection of his deep need to keep his attraction to men out of his own awareness.

la la la....

Personally I think that Freud would have made a good mystical rabbi if he hadn't happened to be an atheist.

By this line of reasoning there are heaps of closet fundamentalists on this board.

There may be something to it in this case, though. Unlike most so-called "homophobes", Phelps seems to be suffering from a genuine phobia in the clinical sense.

I'm no Freud fan, though he's a cut above Jung in my opinion.

[Dub]

If sex is so sinful why would a creator make it:

a) necessary for procreation
b) make procreation so ineffient
c) make people like it so damn much!

People like this remind me of a Nietzche quote: "Chrisitanty resolved that the world is bad and ugly, and in doing so, christianity has made the world bad and ugly"

Why does hate spread through religion seem to be still vaugely acceptable? - in the media etc. Grrr :mad:

[Samus]

I never understood this. If god hates homosexuals, why did he create them? Why does he allow them to continue to be created? If it is the work of the devil, as some might argue, then what good is god? He's obviously not very powerful if he can't stop something as simple as that. If god were smart, wouldn't he love and accept homosexuals, just to spite the devil?

Any way you slice it, the attitude against homosexuals amongst fundamentalist Christians just doesn't make any sense. Homosexuality, in and of itself, imposes no inherent evil upon society. Organized religion, on the other hand, has been the cause of the most atrocious acts of murder and human suffering in recorded history. Funny, that...

[TruthSeeker]

I'm not a Freud fan either (simply a student and channeler, but don't tell anyone ;) ).

My point was that anyone with such rabid hatred who seems to have made an about face (which I take from this thread. I really know nothing about him) about such an issue causes one to wonder about some deeper problem.

Something is fueling his hate.

[Yahweh]

The woman seemed to sincerely believe that homosexuality should be a crime punishable by death.
Yeah, here I was having these crazy beliefs that perhaps the modern day Christian had gone and forgotten all the parts of the bible that glorify genocide...

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Ralph
why are these people so damned obsessed with sex
Because sex, like gold, has a universal value.

They would be obessed with air if they could figure out how to control it.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Shinytop
Yes, it almost always comes down to control or profit. With the church it's about controlling the profit.
:D :D :D

Now that's quotable!

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Ralph
What is the psychology behind the obsession these people have with sex/sin

Sex is a super-pleasure for the body. The body is a mere vessel that carries the god-lovin soul around. Things that are a super-pleasure for the body are surely satanic in nature. Thus man-woman sex, man-man sex, woman-woman sex, man-goat sex, and the sex we all have when we attach electrically-charged alligator clips to our nipples are strictly forbidden.

[Silicon]

Originally posted by triadboy

....alligator clips to our nipples are strictly forbidden.




CURSES!!!!!!

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Dub
If sex is so sinful why would a creator make it:

a) necessary for procreation
b) make procreation so ineffient
c) make people like it so damn much!



a) For faster evolution, of course.
b) Compared to what?
c) To be mean. :p

Clear now?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Commander Cool
I never understood this. If god hates homosexuals, why did he create them? Why does he allow them to continue to be created?

Blah blah blah!

Folks just have to get over that silly notion that creating the universe implies that the Big Guy is a Nice Guy.

Yadda yadda yadda! If God is a God of love then why tornadoes or Nazis or whatever?

And if He's not a God of love? does that prove he doen't exist?

:p

[jimmygun]

I think the clinical explanation for Fred Phelps' hatred is that someone stuck it in then broke it off.

Seriously though, the control thing is right on the money (pun intended). There are three basic instincts for survival, preservation of life, procreation of life and sustanance for life.

Each one is a force that can be used for control by anyone, the church is just very good at it because it also claims to control the afterlife of the individual.

By telling people when, where, how and with whom they can indulge in sex, by telling people what and when they can and cannot eat, and by telling people they must, if asked, lay down their lives without a fight, the church has almost absolute control. Add to that the promise/threat of the afterlife and that seals it.

Anyone who does not submit to the control of the church is a grave danger. There is no room for free thinking in the world of religion. That would lead to religious anarchy and freedom.

[baggie]

Originally posted by WildCat

I think it was telling that, in the Stern interview this morning, Shirley said that blacks can't help what color their skin was.
.

If Michael Jackson can turn white, why can't everyone?

[HarryKeogh]

Originally posted by WildCat

I think it was telling that, in the Stern interview this morning, Shirley said that blacks can't help what color their skin was. Seemed to be inferring that there's still something wrong w/ blacks, but it's not their fault.

The Phelps family one twisted bunch, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that Fred is a closet homosexual.

also telling is how on the godhatesamerica website there is a mention of how gwb is "antichristic'' for appointing a "black dyke" to his cabinet.

i am relieved to know that the congregation is tiny. y'know this guy may not even believe the crap he spews. he found a great niche market and maybe he makes a nice living exploiting it (through donations maybe? im purely speculating)

ok, who am i kidding, he and his family are whacked out of their skulls.

[Samus]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
Folks just have to get over that silly notion that creating the universe implies that the Big Guy is a Nice Guy.

Yadda yadda yadda! If God is a God of love then why tornadoes or Nazis or whatever?

And if He's not a God of love? does that prove he doen't exist? But god loves you...unless you're gay, in which case god created you just so he had someone to hate. ;)

Of course, if you are right that god is not a nice, loving god, then it would logically follow that Christians are minions of evil...

[Tricky]

There's a hilarious song by Rob Carlson (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B000000DUC001005/0/102-5306675-0292966) on an album called Laugh Tracks (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000000DUC/qid=1063812541/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-5306675-0292966?v=glance&s=music&n=507846). I can't seem to find the lyrics out there, but here's an approximation of what I can remember. It's about how Boston banned the gay group from marching in the St. Patrick's day parade.


The groups were all assembled
Upon St. Patty's Day
Along the streets of Boston
To join in the parade
But suddenly, what's this we hear,
This cry and ballyhoo?
There's a bunch of queers again this year
Who say they're Irish too

Oh, God loves the Irish
Unless, of course, you're gay
If so you won't be marchin'
Upon St. Patty's Day
You can be a bum, a bucket o' scum
Sure, an' that's okay
But you can't be Irish if you're gay

There's Cardinal O'Conner
He's bound to set us straight.
"It's boyos like the Kennedy's
That made this country great.
"We don't allow no Peter Pans
Be wearing of The Green,
"And when we say 'Up the Irish'
That isn't what we mean."

Oh, God loves the Irish
Unless, of course, you're gay
That was the pronouncement
As the pipes began to play
You can be a con, a Mafia Don
We'll laugh it all away
But you can't be Irish if you're gay

(To the tune of "Harrigan")
Oh L - E - S-B-I-A
N and S, that's Lesbians
Choosing other women for ta' mate with
Devil a man can ever get a date with
L - E - S-B-I-A
N and S we say
It's a shame
That these dames
Want to come out and march with us,
Lesbians! No way!


There's more, but that's all I can remember.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Ralph
Howard asked why she seemd so angry and hatefull toward everything. He asked her "Don't you ever have any fun"..

She responded by saying she had 11 children. Every waking moment of her life was an absolute joy with 11 children running around the house.

Don't get me wrong--I raised 3 kids myself....but the thought of ELEVEN of them!!!!........that's my idea of hell..............

"11 kids! Why do you have so many?"
"Well, Groucho, I love my husband."
"I love my cigar, too, but I take it out of my mouth once in a while."

(always attributed to Grouch Marx, but snopes says not likely true; still funny, though)

[LW]

Originally posted by Ralph

I guess my point is the woman seemed to feel that of all the "sins" of man---NOTHING is worse than those related to sex.

In the 16th and 17th centuries the laws of Sweden were changed to reflect the Mosaic laws. The reasons for this were many, and not all of them were related to Christianity, but that is another story altogether. The main change was that a number of crimes were made capital offenses.

A number of legal proceedings of the time have been preserved here in Finland (we were part of Sweden back then). The records show that even though very many crimes called for execution as punisment, only few death sentences were carried out and in most cases the punishment was lessened to fine and lashes and occasional imprisonement.

However, there was one crime such that if you were convicted of it, you were automatically executed with no chance of pardon. The crime was not murder, not thievery, not arsony, not witchcraft, or not anything that we nowadays consider a hanging offence.

It was bestiality. If you were caught having sex with an animal, both of you were killed. No exceptions.

An extreme case happened during Carl XII's Russian campaign when a soldier was given three death sentences for bestiality (hanging, execution by sword, and burning, but unfortunately the executioner messed up the order and they had to try to hang a headless corpse, IIRC).

[Professor Frink]

Originally posted by Ralph
What is the psychology behind the obsession these people have with sex/sin.....................????...............

Methinks those who are so obsessed with sex protesteth too much. E.g. Scalia talking about bestiality and adultery becoming the next problem after allowing homosexual sex. Who was talking about bestiality, except for him and the religious nuts? Must be they have something on their minds. Justice Scalia, if you're reading this, can you expand on that thought?

Frink

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Ralph
...

What is the psychology behind the obsession these people have with sex/sin.....................????...............

You ask a great question and my answer is that the person who runs the 'god hats fags' web site (and others who publicly rant and rave about sexual behaviors) probably has quite a few homosexual feelings of his own that he has never been able to contend with so he lashes out which is something that the knows how to do.

There are many famous examples of such behavior:

When Jimmy Baker got into trouble for having sex with one his secretaries, another tele-evanglist, Jimmy Swaggart, went on the TV rampage calling Baker all sorts of things. However, Swaggart himself was paying prostitutes to do certain things to entertain him. In my state, there was a case where a homosexual man was murdered, and one of the murderers did have sex with him before, but this someone was desperate to keep the event quiet. And so on.

I hope this helps!

[Chaos]

What is the psychology behind the obsession these people have with sex

I just remembered a line from "1984" - different club but perhaps there is some similarity. Some said that Big Brother influenced people not to have sex (any more than necessary for procreation) "because sex is the only fun they could have that Big Brother didn´t give them."

Thus, the church, or that kind of church you´re talking about here, doesn´t want people to be happy except in occasions when the church made them happy - it´s all about control, then.

[ktesibios]

Originally posted by Chaos


I just remembered a line from "1984" - different club but perhaps there is some similarity. Some said that Big Brother influenced people not to have sex (any more than necessary for procreation) "because sex is the only fun they could have that Big Brother didn´t give them."

Thus, the church, or that kind of church you´re talking about here, doesn´t want people to be happy except in occasions when the church made them happy - it´s all about control, then.

I also was thinking of Julia's commonsense explanation of the Party's puritanism. Managed to dig up the quote from the online version of Nineteen Eighty-Four (found at www.orwell.ru). Here it is:

"It was not merely that the sex instinct created a world of its own which was outside the Party’s control and which therefore had to be destroyed if possible. What was more important was that sexual privation induced hysteria, which was desirable because it could be transformed into war-fever and leader-worship. The way she put it was:

‘When you make love you’re using up energy; and afterwards you feel happy and don’t give a damn for anything. They can’t bear you to feel like that. They want you to be bursting with energy all the time. All this marching up and down and cheering and waving flags is simply sex gone sour. If you’re happy inside yourself, why should you get excited about Big Brother and the Three-Year Plans and the Two Minutes Hate and all the rest of their bloody rot?’

That was very true, he thought. There was a direct intimate connexion between chastity and political orthodoxy. For how could the fear, the hatred, and the lunatic credulity which the Party needed in its members be kept at the right pitch, except by bottling down some powerful instinct and using it as a driving force? The sex impulse was dangerous to the Party, and the Party had turned it to account."

Ultimately it comes down to control, and achieving control by finding ways to keep people frightened, unhappy and resentful. It works the same for politicians as for priests.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by HarryKeogh
also telling is how on the godhatesamerica website there is a mention of how gwb is "antichristic'' for appointing a "black dyke" to his cabinet.

I hadn't checked that site out lately. Sheesh! That's even better than the Bob Dole equals Darth Vader business.

The story I heard is that lovely Condi likes football players. :cool:

[Jude]

Originally posted by Ralph
He had some woman on----a lawyer named Shirley
Not just a lawyer... a civil rights lawyer! I know; I was floored too.

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by Shinytop
This is a no brainer. Religion has always been about control. Sex is the one of the strongest urges mankind has once he has shelter and is not hungry. So religion <strike>wants</strike> needs to control sex to control its believers. And, as I am sure you know, they want to control heterosexuality as well as homosexuality. Yes, it almost always comes down to control or profit. With the church it's about controlling the profit.

Or, in this case, the "Prophet".

The biggest problem with the Bible is, it isn't really too clear on too many things. Contradictions abound it it--'Thou Shalt Not Kill'(Sixth Commandment), and yet 'Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live' (Exodus 22:18). It's not a Mad-Libs book; you can't mix & match, add or throw out things at your whim. People like this love to try and tell you their version of the Bible--what they KNOW is right and what they KNOW is wrong; and it's always the same: God loves ME, God speaks to ME, I know His will, therefore, you WILL abide by what I tell you, whether you like it or not.

As for same-sex choices, damn, there's that Free Will Covenant I keep hearing so much about...

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
'Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live' (Exodus 22:18).

That line, though, is very badly translated. The original hebrew meant something along the lines of "You shall not allow a herbalist/poisoner to live among you." See http://www.templeofbast.com/WitchToLive.html (Mind, I don't know if that web-page's analysis of the hebrew is correct or not, but I have heard the same statement previously in other contexts.)

[UnrepentantSinner]

The primary reason is that sins of the flesh are so easy to get upset about. It's a lot harder to point the finger at sins of the heart.

On the flip side, what I find interesting is that many of those most hysteric about homosexuality would be the first to throw stones at hetrosexuals who'd had a rendesvous outside of marriage that resulted in pregnancy and decided to get an abortion as redily as two gays who didn't produce a resultant bastard child.

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by Leif Roar


That line, though, is very badly translated. The original hebrew meant something along the lines of "You shall not allow a herbalist/poisoner to live among you." See http://www.templeofbast.com/WitchToLive.html (Mind, I don't know if that web-page's analysis of the hebrew is correct or not, but I have heard the same statement previously in other contexts.)

Either way, it is a little scary, isn't it? If someone like Phelps or his ilk decided to do a literal translation, they would probably go out & kill anyone they thought met the match. I can just see their defense in court:
"Your Honor, they practised HALLOWE'EN! A PAGAN holiday, celebrating a PAGAN religion! As good and true Christians, we had to step in to make sure their vile and evil ways would not spread! Therefore, God had instructed that they had to be taken care of; and, when God says, 'KILL!', then, well, what else can I do?"

Remember, the Inquisition was conducted by men who felt that they and they alone, knew what God wanted.

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade
Remember, the Inquisition was conducted by men who felt that they and they alone, knew what God wanted.

Not really. The Inquisitiors acted as agents of the Church (or in the case of the Spanish Inquisition, effectively as agents of the Spanish Crown.) It was not a case of individuals roaming the countryside, judging whoever they wanted by whatever standards they wanted and killed at whim. To say that the Inquisitors felt that "they alone knew what God wanted" is wrong in the same manner that saying that "US court judges believe that they alone know what is right."

Now, if you blame the Catholic Church for attempting to "trademark God's will" I won't say you're all wrong; but it's really not the case for the Inquisition as such.

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by Leif Roar


Not really. The Inquisitiors acted as agents of the Church (or in the case of the Spanish Inquisition, effectively as agents of the Spanish Crown.) It was not a case of individuals roaming the countryside, judging whoever they wanted by whatever standards they wanted and killed at whim. To say that the Inquisitors felt that "they alone knew what God wanted" is wrong in the same manner that saying that "US court judges believe that they alone know what is right."

Now, if you blame the Catholic Church for attempting to "trademark God's will" I won't say you're all wrong; but it's really not the case for the Inquisition as such.

Well, as you well know:

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!:roll:

[LW]

Originally posted by Leif Roar

To say that the Inquisitors felt that "they alone knew what God wanted" is wrong in the same manner that saying that "US court judges believe that they alone know what is right."

And perhaps it should also be noted that not everyone accused by the Inquisition was burned on stake. Actually, relatively few were.

It's been quite a time since I read Montaillou by Le Roy Ladurie so I can't be 100% certain that I get my facts right, but I don't think I'll get orders of magnitude wrong.

The village of Montaillou was one of the last nests of Cathars. The Inquisition found about it in early 14th century, and started, well, an inquisition into the matter. The judical records of that event have survived.

At first, the Inquisition arrested just about the whole village, several hundreds of people. After interrogations most of them were released. Several dozens were sentenced of heresy. Of them, vast majority had to simply repent and complete penance. If I remember correctly, only one Cathar "Perfect" (Belibaste) was sentenced to death as he refused to repent. Several other notable Cathars (e.g. Pierre Clergue) died in prison while waiting their sentence.

[Temporal Renegade]

HP Lovecraft (1890-1937) always felt that we has born about a hundred or so years 'out of date'---that he'd much rather would have enjoyed living a century or two in the past.
Phelps seems to have been born 'out of date' by a few hundred years, as well---except he probably would have more at home during The Big "I" (1478-1834).

[Darat]

Originally posted by Temporal Renegade


Either way, it is a little scary, isn't it? If someone like Phelps or his ilk decided to do a literal translation, they would probably go out & kill anyone they thought met the match. I can just see their defense in court:
"Your Honor, they practised HALLOWE'EN! A PAGAN holiday, celebrating a PAGAN religion! As good and true Christians, we had to step in to make sure their vile and evil ways would not spread! Therefore, God had instructed that they had to be taken care of; and, when God says, 'KILL!', then, well, what else can I do?"

Remember, the Inquisition was conducted by men who felt that they and they alone, knew what God wanted.

Don't forget that the church handed over the heritics to the secular authorities to do the actual killings.... wouldn't want anyone to think they were hypocritees about the "Do no kill" idea would we ;)

I can imagine the members of the inquisistion saying to the authorities:

"He wasn't a local and we certainly didn't throw him on the bonfire officer..."

(Nice avator.)

[Temporal Renegade]

Originally posted by Darat


Don't forget that the church handed over the heritics to the secular authorities to do the actual killings.... wouldn't want anyone to think they were hypocritees about the "Do no kill" idea would we ;)

I can imagine the members of the inquisistion saying to the authorities:

"He wasn't a local and we certainly didn't throw him on the bonfire officer..."

(Nice avator.)

"IT'S A local JOB, for LOCAL people!":D

Thanks, Darat. I especially like the blinky at the top.:)