Contractor finds thousands in wall! ~ Who gets it?

[Iamme]

Heard it on the news about 1 1/2 hours ago. Depression money. Thousands upon thousands. (Quarter of mil or so, if I heard right?)

They used the word "dispute" over who should get the money. Isn't this a no-brainer? Shouldn't it be the bank, if the house isn't paid off yet?

Bank.

Homeowner.

Contractor.

Relatives of person who hid it there.

Supposedly the money has a worth exceeding that of face value because they claim much of the currency in mint condition!

[BPSCG]

Heard this on Fox News this am. It's about $180,000 in cash, but the money is estimated to be worth about $500,000 (collector value, I assume). Evidently there are two contradictory laws at play here, one called, colloquially, "finders keepers," which would give the money to the contractor, and the other, called "treasure trove," would give it to the home owner.

I would say the home owner should get it, but that's just based on my sense of what's right, not on any reading of the law. FWIW, it seems she offered to give him ten percent.

ETA: Found a link (http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1197452108280821.xml&coll=2) that corrects some of what I wrote above.

[rwguinn]

This is a no-brainer, IMO.
It belongs to whomever "owns" the building-the person paying for it, whose name is on the contract as "Purchaser"

If I own my house (me and the Finance company), and I hire a contractor to do some renovations, failing to tell him I have a "hidey-hole" in the wall, does he get to keep what he finds? Does he have to give it to the Finance company? Hell no! It's mine!

[Skibum]

Homeowner. Although being a contractor I could understand the temptation to say it was mine, I might have to add a cluase to my contracts to cover something like this in the future.

Shouldn't it be the bank, if the house isn't paid off yet?


Why, the bank doesn't "own" the house.

[tsg]

Heard this on Fox News this am. It's about $180,000 in cash, but the money is estimated to be worth about $500,000 (collector value, I assume). Evidently there are two contradictory laws at play here, one called, colloquially, "finders keepers," which would give the money to the contractor, and the other, called "treasure trove," would give it to the home owner.

I would say the home owner should get it, but that's just based on my sense of what's right, not on any reading of the law. FWIW, it seems she offered to give him ten percent.

I would agree only if because any liabilities found on his property (eg, leaking disused oil tank) will be his responsibility (unless he can definitively attribute them to someone else).

[tsg]

I will further clarify. When that contractor is responsible for removing the asbestos he finds in the same wall, he can lay claim to that money.

[rwguinn]

I will further clarify. When that contractor is responsible for removing the asbestos he finds in the same wall, he can lay claim to that money.
Nope.

[tsg]

Nope.

No what?

[rtalman]

If it were a gardener planting rose bushes and he came upon a gold vein while digging, would the gardener have the mineral rights to the deposit? Of course not. The money should go to the homeowner.

[rwguinn]

No what?
What right do you, or anybody else, have to anything on my property?
Unless I have signed a contract designating a percentage of returns on any unknown treasures you may find, or as is happening now in N. Texas, granting you specific rights to mineral deposits or other treasure, you have absolutely NO Right to anything on my property that is not demonstrably yours--your tools, vehicles, etc.
Just because I hired you to remove asbestos does not mean you get to keep the gold substrate it was sprayed onto...

[WildCat]

Homeowner should get it, he bought the house and everything in it.

I'm also in the home repair business, never found anything bigger than a quarter. :mad: I do find old newspapers from time to time, and they're fascinating. The wanted adds requesting that only a certain race need apply for example, or houses offered for sale for $2,000.

[tsg]

What right do you, or anybody else, have to anything on my property?
Unless I have signed a contract designating a percentage of returns on any unknown treasures you may find, or as is happening now in N. Texas, granting you specific rights to mineral deposits or other treasure, you have absolutely NO Right to anything on my property that is not demonstrably yours--your tools, vehicles, etc.
Just because I hired you to remove asbestos does not mean you get to keep the gold substrate it was sprayed onto...

That wasn't what I meant.

If the contractor was hired to demolish the wall and encounters asbestos, the homeowner is responsible for having it removed. That is, it doesn't become the contractor's responsibility to remove it simply because he found it. By the same token, the money doesn't become the contractor's simply because he found it. My original comment was meant to convey that, when the responsibility for removing the asbestos falls on the person who discovers it, then they might have an argument that they are entitled to the money found in the wall. Until then, they don't.

I should have been more clear.

[Modified]

Homeowner should get it, he bought the house and everything in it.

I'm also in the home repair business, never found anything bigger than a quarter. :mad: I do find old newspapers from time to time, and they're fascinating. The wanted adds requesting that only a certain race need apply for example, or houses offered for sale for $2,000.

One amazing thing I found is the size of the lottery prizes from the early 1900s. You'll see two million dollar prizes for local lotteries, and several of them advertised in one paper. That was a lot of dough back then.

[Iamme]

I will further clarify. When that contractor is responsible for removing the asbestos he finds in the same wall, he can lay claim to that money.

I wonder how that contractor could think it was his, or even part of his?

But it would be fun to be the homeowner and say to the contractor, "Gee THANKS. I would have never known it was there and never would have had all that MONNNNNEY if it weren't for you opening the wall. If there is anything I can do for you sometime, let me know." LOL.

..........

According to BPSCG,

A "finders keepers" law, right inside someone's house? I can see a "finders keepers" law for finding something out in the woods. Well, maybe not there either?, depending on whose woods they are.

Come to think of it then, when WOULD "finders keepers" come into play?

Now I'm thinking about that famous pirate ship treasure hunter (who is now dead), who found millions in sunken treasure. You'd think the US gov't would have said "it belongs to the US gov't". But we know that was not the case. At least not for a sizeable share of it. And if the law does not apply there and Fischer? was his name?, got to keep valuables found in US territory (or WAS it US territory?) then you'd think the contractor could lay claim in the same mannor, or at least to a sizeable share of the loot. There are similarities here: Neither treasure would have likely been found if it weren't for an outside party stumbling upon it, on someone elses's property.

We need to have all of our laws fairly apply to everything.

[Iamme]

Homeowner should get it, he bought the house and everything in it.

I'm also in the home repair business, never found anything bigger than a quarter. :mad: I do find old newspapers from time to time, and they're fascinating. The wanted adds requesting that only a certain race need apply for example, or houses offered for sale for $2,000.

To brown nose, I gave my boss the old mint condition newpaper I found up in an attic that had headlines that the war (World WarII) had ended. I could have never said anything and kept it. I have given him many other things also, like antique shower heads when I remove them. All kinds of things I have found in crawl spaces, attics and in the house, that were left behind. I recently turned in a cute fluorescent electric broom that works good, and looked brand new. He would have never have known if I kept it.

I wonder why the contractor didn't unless the homeowner was standing there when he opened up the wall? Or do you think the guy had high moral values? Or was he more inclined to believe he'd go to prison if caught?

[rtalman]

Now I'm thinking about that famous pirate ship treasure hunter (who is now dead), who found millions in sunken treasure. You'd think the US gov't would have said "it belongs to the US gov't". But we know that was not the case. At least not for a sizeable share of it. And if the law does not apply there and Fischer? was his name?, got to keep valuables found in US territory (or WAS it US territory?) then you'd think the contractor could lay claim in the same mannor, or at least to a sizeable share of the loot. There are similarities here: Neither treasure would have likely been found if it weren't for an outside party stumbling upon it, on someone elses's property.

We need to have all of our laws fairly apply to everything.

There are specific salvage laws that apply to that scenario.

[Modified]

Now I'm thinking about that famous pirate ship treasure hunter (who is now dead), who found millions in sunken treasure. You'd think the US gov't would have said "it belongs to the US gov't". But we know that was not the case. At least not for a sizeable share of it. And if the law does not apply there and Fischer? was his name?, got to keep valuables found in US territory (or WAS it US territory?)

Actually, the Florida government tried pretty hard to get all of the loot.

[Iamme]

Do you realize how many homes standing that are from that era and before that contain probably to this day, huge sums of cash hidden in walls, floors, out in the backyard, etc.? !

When my great aunt died and I was 10, I got to ransack the house with my dad and we found $40,000 in cash hidden behind bureaus in upside down cups, taped under the underside of furniture, lots of gold, many really neat old elaborate pocket watches, guns..all hidden away. I thought that was one of the neatest experiences I had lived through to that point. She hid the money from her own husband! She died senile and would never have found it just before she died.

[Iamme]

Actually, the Florida government tried pretty hard to get all of the loot.

So why didn't they? Since gov'ts sort of do as they please because they have police and armies...why didn't they?

[Iamme]

There are specific salvage laws that apply to that scenario.

So why is there a big distinction with "salvage"? Because someone has to actually work to find it, rather than simply stumble upon it, and just easily scoop it up? The gov't could have said that it is ours and we will pay you for your time. And if he refused to tell where it was located, they could have water-boarded him. :)

[rtalman]

So why is there a big distinction with "salvage"? Because someone has to actually work to find it, rather than simply stumble upon it, and just easily scoop it up? The gov't could have said that it is ours and we will pay you for your time. And if he refused to tell where it was located, they could have water-boarded him. :)Salvaging vessels requires a license and an agreement with the jurisdiction that controls the water you are salvaging (it specifies where you can search, what % of the loot you get to keep, etc.). At least that is the law where I am, the opposite corner of the U.S. from Florida. I am not familiar with the treasure hunter you are talking about, but if he was legally salvaging, he probably had a contract. If he was just some yutz with scuba gear and he stumbled upon a trove, he has zero rights to take anything away (that would not stop him from getting a license and going back to salvage legally, however).

[TragicMonkey]

I think it's startling that nobody has considered that perhaps that money rightfully belongs to the proper owner, me. Yes, that's right. It's my money, however much there was, and I put it there. Please mail it to me immediately, and I'll overlook the whole matter of everyone arguing about how to cheat me out of it.

Also, if you found any cash in parking lots, that's mine as well. I dropped it.

[BPSCG]

I remember seeing a nineteenth century cartoon showing two farmers fighting over a cow. One farmer is pulling the head in one direction, and the other is pulling the tail in the opposite direction. Seated in the middle is a lawyer. He's milking the cow.

The cartoon's second panel shows the two farmers rolling on the ground, beating each other to a pulp. The lawyer is walking off with the cow.

Just sayin'...

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

I don't know what the law is, but my sense of what's right tells me the property owner gets it. The previous owner of my house left a plastic milk crate behind when he moved out. If he came over and demanded it back, I could be nice and return it, but I can't imagine any legal obligation to do so.


I can't see why the contractor feels he has any claim to the money. I've found money in vehicles I've worked on at my job, when disassembling a dashboard or removing a seat, and I always place it somewhere where the owner of the vehicle will see it. I'd never even consider pocketing it, even if it's pennies. However, the last used vehicle I bought had quite a few valuables in it, like video games and tools, but I saw no need to return them. I bought it as-is, the loss is due to his carelessness. However, if he asked for them back, he could have them, but only because I try to be nice, not because I have to.

[Modified]

So why didn't they? Since gov'ts sort of do as they please because they have police and armies...why didn't they?

Because there is a higher authority than the government and courts of the state of Florida. Ultimately, the US Supreme Court decided in Fisher's favor, but it was a long a grueling road to get to that point.

[Beerina]

This is a no-brainer, IMO.
It belongs to whomever "owns" the building-the person paying for it, whose name is on the contract as "Purchaser"

If I own my house (me and the Finance company), and I hire a contractor to do some renovations, failing to tell him I have a "hidey-hole" in the wall, does he get to keep what he finds? Does he have to give it to the Finance company? Hell no! It's mine!

IIRC, there was a similar case about 10 years ago, where some contractors stumbled across a wad of cash in an attic or something, then smuggled it out and someone else "found" it somewhere else. I believe there was no question that it was illegal back then.

[Beerina]

Homeowner. Although being a contractor I could understand the temptation to say it was mine, I might have to add a cluase to my contracts to cover something like this in the future.

They could try, but I doubt they'd get too far...

Contractor: Hi, by the way, my contract states I get to keep anything I find in your house that's in the walls or under some insulation in the attic, or has greater than 2 mm of dust on it.

Home Owner: Bye

[kedo1981]

There was a very similar case about 15 years ago in my city (also in Ohio; hmmm)
A cleaner of houses was hired to cleanup after the elderly resident died.
She began finding wades of cash sewn into the hems of drapes, inside cushions, all kinds of places.
Came to over a half million.
She turned it over to the estate lawyers, turns out there were no heirs, and what did the cleaning lady get for her honesty, a luncheon put on by the bar association.
I’m not saying she should have kept it but she should definitely have gotten a finders fee.
Did the moo-la line the lawyers pockets, don’t know, did they make a point to find who deserved the cash, don’t know.

[crackers]

I think it's startling that nobody has considered that perhaps that money rightfully belongs to the proper owner, me. Yes, that's right. It's my money, however much there was, and I put it there. Please mail it to me immediately, and I'll overlook the whole matter of everyone arguing about how to cheat me out of it.

Also, if you found any cash in parking lots, that's mine as well. I dropped it.

I found a penny the other day, but I consider it a lucky penny so I'm keeping it. You got a problem with that? Go ahead and sue me for it. I'm lawyering up even as I type.

[TragicMonkey]

I found a penny the other day, but I consider it a lucky penny so I'm keeping it. You got a problem with that? Go ahead and sue me for it. I'm lawyering up even as I type.

It's only a lucky penny if it's dated the year you were born, the year you graduated, or the year you lost your virginity.

[rtalman]

It's only a lucky penny if it's dated the year you were born, the year you graduated, or the year you lost your virginity.If it's 2 out of 3, is it double lucky?

[TragicMonkey]

If it's 2 out of 3, is it double lucky?

Given the unlikelihood of graduating from an accredited school before one's first birthday, the situation doesn't arise.

[Michael Redman]

Homeowner should get it, he bought the house and everything in it.

I'm also in the home repair business, never found anything bigger than a quarter. :mad: I do find old newspapers from time to time, and they're fascinating. The wanted adds requesting that only a certain race need apply for example, or houses offered for sale for $2,000.We found a dance card in the attic of a friend's house built around 1900. I didn't realize that such things existed. It was from an Oddfellow's Ball. Several guys had written their names on the girl's dance card. One guy was there twice. It was a really interesting connection to the past.

We also found a box of slides. Family pictures. Very interesting. Looked to be from about 1940 through 1970.

[rtalman]

Given the unlikelihood of graduating from an accredited school before one's first birthday, the situation doesn't arise.I was referring to the juxtaposition of the other 2 events on the list...

[LashL]

Given the unlikelihood of graduating from an accredited school before one's first birthday, the situation doesn't arise.

Given these two options: "the year you graduated" and "the year you lost your virginity", I think it is quite likely that a two out of three situation could arise.

[Skibum]

They could try, but I doubt they'd get too far...

Contractor: Hi, by the way, my contract states I get to keep anything I find in your house that's in the walls or under some insulation in the attic, or has greater than 2 mm of dust on it.

Home Owner: Bye

You would be surprised at how few actually read what they are signing. I could probably sneak in a "rights to firstborn clause" and have several signers by the end of the month.

[TragicMonkey]

I was referring to the juxtaposition of the other 2 events on the list...

That's disgusting!

[Iamme]

I think it's startling that nobody has considered that perhaps that money rightfully belongs to the proper owner, me. Yes, that's right. It's my money, however much there was, and I put it there. Please mail it to me immediately, and I'll overlook the whole matter of everyone arguing about how to cheat me out of it.

Also, if you found any cash in parking lots, that's mine as well. I dropped it.

Funny you should mention this. Just a bit ago me and my friend were discussing this case more (he said they were talking about this very case on the Morning Show (this morning) with Mike and Juliet on ABC), and he said that when he found a quarter in the school yard, as a kid, he would return it to the rightful owner. He said that is how honest a person he is. So I asked him how he knew who the rightful owner was. I said that any person could say every day of the year that he keeps losing money out in the playground at recess and whatever anybody finds, it must be his. Ya. Phhhhhh.

[Iamme]

We found a dance card in the attic of a friend's house built around 1900. I didn't realize that such things existed. It was from an Oddfellow's Ball. Several guys had written their names on the girl's dance card. One guy was there twice. It was a really interesting connection to the past.

We also found a box of slides. Family pictures. Very interesting. Looked to be from about 1940 through 1970.

Was this a board-floor attic or did you find this stuff on or in the insulation? 1940's +. Don't remind me of that dumb era. Everything was so puritanical LeaveittoBeverish. Man am I glad those days are gone. What a prudish time period.

[Iamme]

For any of you out of work, disabled and/or bored. Here:

"Cases involving finders of hidden property are seldom simple; there are usually numerous parties and interests involved. Corliss and his employer, Larry Anderson, were excavating soil while under contract to construct a driveway on Wenner's land. Corliss was the first to notice the freshly exposed coins, and further digging by both men revealed a broken jar that had contained a stash of 96 American gold coins dating between 1857 and 1914."

Iamme, quote a couple of lines by all means, but not the whole thing. Post a link, thus - http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/trove/

[Michael Redman]

Was this a board-floor attic or did you find this stuff on or in the insulation? 1940's +. Don't remind me of that dumb era. Everything was so puritanical LeaveittoBeverish. Man am I glad those days are gone. What a prudish time period.The oldest things, the dance card, some catalogs, old newspapers, etc. were under floorboards. The slides were just sitting on the floor in a jumble of debris. You may be right about the quality of the times, but some of the images are iconic. Here's one I scanned (I would have uploaded a larger image, but I don't know the restrictions):

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_2564763f262350f0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=9736)

[Iamme]

The oldest things, the dance card, some catalogs, old newspapers, etc. were under floorboards. The slides were just sitting on the floor in a jumble of debris. You may be right about the quality of the times, but some of the images are iconic. Here's one I scanned (I would have uploaded a larger image, but I don't know the restrictions):

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_2564763f262350f0.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=9736)

Ya, a photo of goody two-shoes people. Thanks for sharing.

Aunt B (of The Andy Griffith Show and Andy of Mayberry Shows), Ozzy and Harriet, The Cleavers (in the Leave It To Beaver Show), Father Knows Best, The Danny Kay variety show, Dinah Shore, Mr. Ed, Lawrence Welk......gag me a spoon am I glad those days are over. No wonder I sped to strip tease clubs when I turned 18.

Yesterday on this nationally syndicated radio network, a large segment of the show was a call-in segment asking the listener who they thought should get the money. Most people thought the homeowner should get it. The term "no-brainer" was given. The host's opinion is the lawyers are instigating this to get a sizeable cut of the pie. Some people called in with perhaps the right answer but the wrong examples as to why. Not one person addressed the fact that it was not the homeowner who put the money in the wall. Yet examples cited were like the guy who called with this silly reasoning: "What if you took your car to the mechanic and you had valuables in your glove compartment and the mechanic took it and later claimed it was his.' Duh.

[Michael Redman]

Not one person addressed the fact that it was not the homeowner who put the money in the wall.Why does that matter?

[rtalman]

Why does that matter?Would it matter if it were a former drug lord's house? I wonder if the money were not from so long ago if the govt would step in...