RGC-24 Ground Conditioner - crazy bass!

[ExtremeSkeptic]

I got kicked out from my old apartment so I had to move into a new one, they didn't allow me to modify the wall so I didn't have any grounding for my system. I was going to buy a graphics card but after seeing this website (http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/rgc24/rgc24_01.html) I bought a RGC-24 Ground Conditioner with the money. One RGC-24 made almost as big difference as star grounding to the wall with Valhalla power cords!



Skeptic test of the RGC-24


1) Connected the DAC1 ground wire to RGC-24.

Impressions: Whiter, blacker, clearer, sharper, tighter bass. Bigger soundstage, more space, smoother and less fatiguing. More realistic.

The bass got pushed into the background because it was less boomy, the rest of the sounds became more detailed.

There were more transients than before and they were clearer, whiter, smoother and more distinct than before.


2) Disconnected RGC-24

Impressions: Something was covering up all the transients. The boomy bass was more emphasized than the whiteness. It sounded veiled.


3) Connected RGC-24

Impressions: The bass got pushed into the background again and everything was clearer. The bass was tighter and still more distinct than before even when other sounds were in front of it.


The transients with RGC-24 were the most amazing ever. With ERS Paper and Magix the transients become like fine sand, but they sacrifice blackness with greyness which makes it sound dull and dry. But with RGC-24 the greyness turns into blackness and the sand becomes even finer without becoming drier. It sounds like getting sprayed by liquid, but it isn't brown spray, it is clear spray.

RGC-24 makes more positive improvements than ERS Paper and Magix levitation feet, but it also gives the smallest value for the money. After a couple days I borrowed some money from the bank and ordered 10 more of these. I won't be able to buy anything else for many years... That's how good RGC-24 is, it's my new favorite tweak!









10 more RGC-24 arrived!

From 1 to 4: Smoother and more transparent. Silkier highs but higher quality. Everything sounded a little thinner and leaner than before. I heard deeper into the recording. It was a similar improvement as when changing from Toslink into Nordost Valhalla AES/EBU, but smaller.


From 4 to 8: Smoother and more distinct. There was less whiteness of the transients which made them less emphasized. It sounded a little boring.


From 8 to 4: Whiter high frequency transients. It makes the background behind it appear emptier and blacker because of less low-level detail. I liked the sound of 4 more than 8, but I just needed to get used to the sound of 8...


From 4 to 8: Less whiteness in the highs. Less emphasis of transients. More depth. Everything is more distinct without anything being emphasized.


From 8 to 11: I didn't seem to hear a further improvement, but I didn't switch back and forth because it would have taken too long.


1 vs 11: It sounds very weird. It's both heavier and thinner, sharper and smoother, louder and quieter... I'm not hearing any sound signatures anymore.

More bass information that is very quiet, but it isn't thin and veiled like from other tweaks, it's thick and detailed. There are more bass transients and they are heavy.
High frequencies are thinner and they have more information in them.
More separation and clarity of sandy transients, they aren't veiled and dull anymore.
The ambient sounds are smoother than before, and the sounds in front are sharper than before.
Everything is more distinct and none of the sounds appear to blend together anymore, there are multiple ambient sounds which I previously though was only one sound.
More low-level detail everywhere, more resolution.
Soundstage is deeper.
Less boominess and fatigue. More transparency, neutrality and realism.Conclusion: Connecting 11 RGC-24 into my Benchmark DAC1 made the most positive improvement out of any tweak I have ever done, but it also made the smallest differences.



http://a100.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/111/l_c5b728d4bf33ad5629d31f9393e3baa3.jpg (http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/Apartment2/RGC-24/2/full.01.JPG)

http://a426.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/87/l_ab792ce7b31c418d2db2050c5dc37979.jpg (http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/Apartment2/RGC-24/2/full.02.JPG)

http://a815.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/96/l_a9cfd0858a125b6b6fc361e86057a8ae.jpg[ (http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/Apartment2/RGC-24/2/full.03.JPG)

http://a441.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/78/l_695e202fdf37b68c8bb7cce6167480c8.jpg (http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/Apartment2/RGC-24/2/full.04.JPG)

http://a173.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/66/l_fc2ec9d91a0001ec347a2bafb3c1c39c.jpg (http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/Apartment2/RGC-24/2/full.05.JPG)

http://a923.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/89/l_27ac3dcb5c6c7fecb87fe30ae88fa24a.jpg (http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/Apartment2/RGC-24/2/full.06.JPG)

[krelnik]

This is some sort of parody, right?

[Dragon]

This is some sort of parody, right?I'm afraid not, ExtremeSkeptic really does appear to be insane.
Check out his previous threads.

[TjW]

Crazy bass? What effect does it have on bluegill?

[Complexity]

Let me guess: You got kicked out of your apartment for noise.

I hate noisy neighbors.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

<< SNIP >>

Conclusion: Connecting 11 RGC-24 into my Benchmark DAC1 made the most positive improvement out of any tweak I have ever done, but it also made the smallest differences.


:shocked:
Ah. I think I see your problem. You connected them in series didn't you? Should be in parallel,
:shocked:

[Psiload]

I'm afraid not, ExtremeSkeptic really does appear to be insane.
Check out his previous threads.

Or click here:

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=190309543&blogID=330994613

A picture is worth a thousand words. That boy is all sorts of crazy.

[calebprime]

...realism.[/LIST]Conclusion: Connecting 11 RGC-24 into my Benchmark DAC1 made the most positive improvement out of any tweak I have ever done, but it also made the smallest differences.




To boldly go where no paradox has gone before...

[blobru]

Skeptic test...
10 more...
Conclusion:...

Huh.

What do you listen to, to test your bass for craziness?

[Blue Mountain]

This is some sort of parody, right?
To use a common paraphrase of Clarke's Law, sufficiently advanced woo is indistinguishable from parody.

[Myriad]

To use a common paraphrase of Clarke's Law, sufficiently advanced woo is indistinguishable from parody.


You've got that right.

From http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3174673#post3174673:

Ground Your Sound

You might think your audio system is properly grounded, but most "ground" connections are just lengths of wire that pick up electromagnetic interference and channel it right back into your circuits! Our grounding system is different. Instead of wiring your system to the ground, we extend the ground right to your system, using a cable filled with a robust 5/8" core of genuine dirt, wrapped in durable all-mineral fiber. When we bury the flared terminal end in your lawn, garden, or cellar, and run the cable to your chassis, your system will be in direct contact with Mother Earth. Imagine a mid-field as steady as the Rock of Gibraltar, a background with the powerful resonant stillness of an undiscovered cave, and a midrange with the mass of a mountain range. You've never heard anything like it! All-inclusive kits with our custom on-site installation (required) start at $14,500.


I think mine is better, actually.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Huh.

What do you listen to, to test your bass for craziness?
I use trance music for crazy bass. The album I use for the test is whatever I'm listening to before I put in the tweak. For the RGC-24 test I used Trancemaster 4002, 192kbps mp3.

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Let me guess: You got kicked out of your apartment for noise.
I got kicked out because they had to repair stuff.


I hate noisy neighbors.
I'm not noisy.


Here is a tour of my system before the rest of the RGC-24 arrived:

YouTube - Excited Audiophile - The first RGC-24 tweak (part 1/2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRrXl4IAYGo)

YouTube - Excited Audiophile - The first RGC-24 tweak (part 2/2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZls0EPa2UI)

[ExtremeSkeptic]

:shocked:
Ah. I think I see your problem. You connected them in series didn't you? Should be in parallel,
:shocked:
Yes, but I didn't want to turn off my system because it takes more than a month to warm it up. The next time my system is down I will solder them closer.

[bruto]

Something about going to all this trouble to listen to MP3's of trance music just strikes my funny bone.

Way way back (like maybe 1959?) I remember seeing a comedy skit on some variety show (might have been Steve Allen), in which the tube-era version of extremeskeptic is enthusing over his latest audio gadget, hooking it up to the most exotic and extreme system possible, complete with all the jargon (not much really changes). He finally gets it all hooked up, and turns it on. The punch line is, of course, that what he puts on is The Chipmunks' "I wanna play my harmonica."

[technoextreme]

Yeeeeshhh..... I have no idea what he said. I have no idea what the ground coniditioner does.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Yeeeeshhh..... I have no idea what he said. I have no idea what the ground coniditioner does.

Oh come on. What does a hair conditioner do? What does a air conditioner do?

So a ground conditioner conditions the ground. Some of us call it a rake. :confused:

[Freethinker]

Yeeeeshhh..... I have no idea what he said. I have no idea what the ground coniditioner does.

What it does is nothing. Unless you want to count bilking the technologically ignorant out of their money. The electrical ground has only one function in an electrical appliance: Safety. The neutral is the current carrying circuit on the ground side.

[Psiload]

Yes, but I didn't want to turn off my system because it takes more than a month to warm it up. The next time my system is down I will solder them closer.
A month to warm up? Dude... you're the Mayor of Crazytown.

I like you... you're silly.

[Graham Jackman]

I fear ES is beyond hope or help. I did find the description of the ground conditioner: http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/rgc24/rgc24_01.html
but I'm afraid, I'm none the wiser. I guess because ES only listens to mp3s, he won't need their disc demagnetiser, although he sounds like a prime customer.

[Freethinker]

I fear ES is beyond hope or help. I did find the description of the ground conditioner: http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/rgc24/rgc24_01.html
but I'm afraid, I'm none the wiser. I guess because ES only listens to mp3s, he won't need their disc demagnetiser, although he sounds like a prime customer.

I believe that mp3s would benefit just as much from the demagnetizer as other media.

[DRBUZZ0]

Okay. A couple questions:

Is there a reason you whisper in the video? Is it that the system does not like to be talked loudly to or just to make it even weirder?

It appears that your power cables are.... um... special... wrapped in some stuff or whatever. Have you considered next tackling the whole issue of the unshielded copper cables in your home that bring you the power, or the miles of aluminum cables which are totally unshielded and connect to unbalanced, leaky and unshielded transformers and such, none of it built with audiophiles in mind?

Do you think maybe you should consider replacing the ground in your area. I mean by digging up all the dirt and bedrock and replacing it with something more magical?

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Okay. A couple questions:

Is there a reason you whisper in the video? Is it that the system does not like to be talked loudly to or just to make it even weirder?My hearing gets better if the environment is quiet. Whispering leads to better sound, what else?

It appears that your power cables are.... um... special... wrapped in some stuff or whatever. Have you considered next tackling the whole issue of the unshielded copper cables in your home that bring you the power, or the miles of aluminum cables which are totally unshielded and connect to unbalanced, leaky and unshielded transformers and such, none of it built with audiophiles in mind?I don't need to tweak the street wiring because my Valhalla power cables worsen the sound. I like 55cm the best. Longer than 55cm made it sound too thin and veiled with lack of low-level detail. The shorter the better!

Do you think maybe you should consider replacing the ground in your area. I mean by digging up all the dirt and bedrock and replacing it with something more magical?
That's what the RGC-24 Ground Conditioner does. It moves the ground closer than the forest, the shorter path the better the sound!

[bruto]

My hearing gets better if the environment is quiet. Whispering leads to better sound, what else?

I don't need to tweak the street wiring because my Valhalla power cables worsen the sound. I like 55cm the best. Longer than 55cm made it sound too thin and veiled with lack of low-level detail. The shorter the better!


That's what the RGC-24 Ground Conditioner does. It moves the ground closer than the forest, the shorter path the better the sound!

I'll probably be sorry I asked, but ok: how does the ground conditioner "move the ground closer?"

[ExtremeSkeptic]

I'll probably be sorry I asked, but ok: how does the ground conditioner "move the ground closer?"
The RGC-24 has magic ore inside that sucks the noise out from the system. Grounding the system into the real earth is too slow because it is too far away. I don't want the ground noise to go through fat rusty pipes before it reaches the ground... I want to remove the noise from my system fast!

[blobru]

...That's what the RGC-24 Ground Conditioner does. It moves the ground closer than the forest, the shorter path the better the sound!
I'll probably be sorry I asked, but ok: how does the ground conditioner "move the ground closer?"

Allow me apologize for Bruto's obtuseness, ES.

Some folks just can't hear the forest for the tweaks.

:dig:(sorry, and belated happy b'day there, sir_backhoe!);)

[ExtremeSkeptic]

To boldly go where no paradox has gone before...
Other tweaks make bigger differences but they aren't as positive. People who try ERS Paper complain that it sounds too warm because their system was on the warm side of neutrality and they used EMI to compensate for it. So when the EMI was removed they didn't like it... It's the same thing with AC noise and jitter.

But with the RGC-24, everything gets extended into both directions, you get the best of everything; heavier and thinner, smoother and sharper etc. It doesn't make anything worse like other tweaks do. It just removes the veil in front of the music while making it even smoother.

[bruto]

The RGC-24 has magic ore inside that sucks the noise out from the system. Grounding the system into the real earth is too slow because it is too far away. I don't want the ground noise to go through fat rusty pipes before it reaches the ground... I want to remove the noise from my system fast!
That's magic, all right. Here in the boondocks, we have this stuff called "wire." Through that incredibly versatile stuff, signals and noise both pass at approximately the speed of light. We country bumpkins have not found the magic way to get the noise and signals to go any faster than that, because we're still stuck in the conventional four dimensions.

Of course it's a little quicker out here in the country, where the houses actually rest on the ground. My ground stake is only about 10 feet from the stereo system. You should move to the country, ES. The ground here has great detail and clarity, and very little jitter.

[DRBUZZ0]

The RGC-24 has magic ore inside that sucks the noise out from the system. Grounding the system into the real earth is too slow because it is too far away. I don't want the ground noise to go through fat rusty pipes before it reaches the ground... I want to remove the noise from my system fast!

Okay, as opoosed to using a copper wire to go to the ground. Then I guess you'd have a lag of... hmmm. Well estimating a ten meter run to the "real earth ground", which seems reasonable, then you'd have about 2*10^-8 seconds. Er... yea.

Not that it needs to though, I mean "ground" is kinda a relative term electrically and if everything has a common ground reference then it should be okay. So it "sucks the noise out of the system" ok. Have you thought about one of these:

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/74266

Apparently it can really soak up emf problems from the area.

[DRBUZZ0]

My hearing gets better if the environment is quiet. Whispering leads to better sound, what else?


Okay, so how long do you have to be in such an extremely quite environment? If someone slams a car door near you do you have to spend a week whispering before it comes back then?




I don't need to tweak the street wiring because my Valhalla power cables worsen the sound. I like 55cm the best. Longer than 55cm made it sound too thin and veiled with lack of low-level detail. The shorter the better!


Ah I see. So miles of unshielded aluminum wire, windings on transformers and a hodge podge of voltage regulation equipment, some of it probably dating back to the 1950's or earlier do not worsen the sound. Also the standard grade copper cable that runs to the receptical doesn't cause problems either. But the Vallaha power cables do? Wow. What a ripoff, considering they cost anywhere from a couple hundred to a couple thousand GBP each:

http://www.highendcable.co.uk/Nordost%20VISHNU.htm

http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/

Maybe you ought to just use ordinary copper wiring directly to the unit, since that seems to not cause any problems.

[pipelineaudio]

I like that this thing is to deal with worrisome ground issues yet uses unbalanced RCA connectors

ES I'll set you up a nice ground scheme. Your manager may complain a bit about the water bill, but itll be less than you are paying for this crap

[Olowkow]

With that many grounding problems something must be broken! There should be no "ground current" at all if the system is properly designed. This is just too goofy. Apparently just filling the room with all these "ore filled" boxes is giving you better acoustics. Try some garage sale couches or foam backed boards, cheaper.

Seriously, "grounding" means simply returning any small AC leakage from the power supply transformer to earth, so you (connected to earth through your shoes) don't get shocked when touching the chassis.

Just curious how much these things cost. I can't seem to find a price anywhere...ok, that means I can't afford them if I need to ask I guess.

[technoextreme]

What it does is nothing. Unless you want to count bilking the technologically ignorant out of their money. The electrical ground has only one function in an electrical appliance: Safety. The neutral is the current carrying circuit on the ground side.
Heh.. Sorry I should have been more emphatic with my description. Im a junior electrical engineering student. The only thing I have ever seen used on power cables that legitimatly reduce noice are ferrite beads. Just checking my computer monitor's power cable has a ferrite bead. You can tell if a cable has a ferrite bead is if it has a weird protrusion like something is wrapped about the cable.

[bruto]

ES, I'm still not sure you got freethinker's and olowkow's point there. Unless you have electrical leakage in your system (i.e. it's broken), or serious induction problems (i.e. it's badly designed or poorly arranged), there should be no current at all passing through your ground line, and no potential at all between the point you're grounding and the ground itself. You're conditioning nothing. There is nothing there to condition! Have you taken a meter reading to determine if there really is any potential there?

Furthermore, if you are correct in your assumption that the path to ground provided by the building wiring is so poor that it requires "conditioning," and that it has so much complex impedance that it's actually slowing down whatever signals pass through it, this would point to a serious problem in the building wiring, and this problem would affect not only the ground line but the neutral as well, since the ground line and neutral are tied together at the fuse or breaker box and share a common path from there to the physical earth grounding point. How can you ever hope to have proper power supply if your neutral is not effectively grounded? Your house is on fire, and you're fussing with the thermostat!

[pipelineaudio]

While this audiophile nonsense is silly ( and this one too http://www.acoustic-revive.com/english/rio5/rio5_01.html ), grounding in audio isnt as simple of an issue as some of you are making out

Unless actually money is spent on power supply design, there WILL be current in the grounding system. This pretty much means any of our modern cheap computer equipment, but even before those things were commonplace ground was a HUGE issue.

In balanced lines, and analog audio transmission, the ground is the reference point above and below which the signal operates. If two different devices have different voltages between grounds, which is extremely common, you get problems. Big ones. Assymetry, DC offset, hum, and physical danger.

[Olowkow]

Unless actually money is spent on power supply design, there WILL be current in the grounding system. This pretty much means any of our modern cheap computer equipment, but even before those things were commonplace ground was a HUGE issue.

In balanced lines, and analog audio transmission, the ground is the reference point above and below which the signal operates. If two different devices have different voltages between grounds, which is extremely common, you get problems. Big ones. Assymetry, DC offset, hum, and physical danger.

This is all true, but I must assume that all this has been designed out of this high end equipment. I repaired stereos for many years, and even the cheapest of these was pretty immune to power supply hum.

What can and does happen, is for example a line level source (i.e. preamp) feeding a line level input (i.e. amplifier) over a long shielded cable (coaxial) can have a small AC voltage difference between the two grounds. In this case, there is a common mode current flowing (and induced 60 Hz, since the preamp is a low impedance) on the shield.

This is the classic "ground loop". Of course, "ore boxes" are not going to help. But what does help is what is called a "linear transformer", which passes untouched any signal (180 deg out of phase with the shield), and attenuates greatly any "common mode" 60 hz or anything else. I have built many of these "toroids" for the labs I service, and they work great.

Construction is simple: I use about 30 feet of RG174 size teflon coax wound through a 3 inch toroid, with BNC's on each end. This is very similar to what "technoextreme" referred to as "ferrite beads", but much greater inductance to attenuate the low frequency 60 Hz.

Incidentally, I had a dc motor that was using variable pulse width 20 kHz to vary the speed, and was injecting so much switching transient stuff into the line that it was tripping the GFI. I used a 1 inch toroid and 5 turns in the motor leads, and eliminated the problem (from about 5 ma leakage to .3 ma).

[DRBUZZ0]

well as far as the importance of a good ground, it's true that you don't have any current going to it under normal circumstances. All I can think of (And this is a bit of a stretch) is that the proper grounding would improve any rf interferance and improve the preformance of cable and component shielding by keeping it from picking up any interferance.

Again, this is a stretch, but I do know that audio components can pick up some degree of crosstalk and if you have something like a massive Soviet-Era ULF Submarine communications transmitter located just a few feet from your audio input I could see how having less than optimal grounding could be an issue with that sort of thing...

[pipelineaudio]

I wish any decent gear had torroidals in them :( Once in a while some giant amp does, but all this chinese knockoff stuff we have to deal with in a modern studio is ground problem and power supply decoupling issues central

But even in a good system, you can pretty much be guranteed multiple paths to ground and more importantly, multiple resistances to ground. People used to fight over telescoping shields, or ground follows signal or star ground schemes, but no matter what you decide you have two HUGE issues for sure:

Guitars (using unbalanced cables)
Phantom powered microphones who REQUIRE that the shield be connected at both ends

With the lengths of cables found in a typical patch bay, this meant that the more direct ground path WAS going to hum if another grounding path was connected

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Most audiophiles know that Benchmark DAC1 has ground noise problems. They even recommend disconnecting the ground completely.
I have noticed that it sounds very bad when not using star grounding, removing the ground made it sound better than letting noise from other components run through the DAC1.

Adding 11 RGC-24 into the DAC1 made a bigger difference than grounding vs no grounding.

I'm not going to upgrade my DAC1 into something else because some people already changed their $20k sources into the $1k DAC1 (link (http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1099367560&read&keyw&zzdcs)).
I have also made ERS Paper and Magix tweaks for the DAC1. Isolating the Toroidal transformer from the chassis made the biggest difference I have heard, I have the Toroid on top of a Magix levitation foot.


Grounding experiments

I let the ground noise travel through the whole system using a single point ground instead of my normal star ground, I did a few combinations and they were all bad compared to star grounding, they all made it grey, bright and dull, when putting the star ground back it sounded blacker, smoother and clearer!
The worst brightness came when the computer noise traveled through the DAC. Brightness normally gives an illusion of blackness, but it was so bright and cold that it was masking all that blackness, I was hearing the same icy sound signature as when you leave headphone drivers unused for a few hours in the winter. It didn't sound like the snowy Valhalla signature because the sound was harder and edgier like ice!

[ExtremeSkeptic]

With that many grounding problems something must be broken! There should be no "ground current" at all if the system is properly designed. This is just too goofy. Apparently just filling the room with all these "ore filled" boxes is giving you better acoustics. Try some garage sale couches or foam backed boards, cheaper.I was going to ground my system into a flower pot but nobody wanted to give any advice when I asked (http://www.euphonia-audioforum.se/forums/index.php?showtopic=4752) about flowers, so I bought the RGC-24 instead.


Just curious how much these things cost. I can't seem to find a price anywhere...ok, that means I can't afford them if I need to ask I guess.
It's almost $7000 in Sweden, I was worried it wouldn't have been worth the money, but it was!

[pipelineaudio]

It disturbs me greatly that you and I use the same Digital to Analog converter

[bruto]

I was going to ground my system into a flower pot but nobody wanted to give any advice when I asked (http://www.euphonia-audioforum.se/forums/index.php?showtopic=4752) about flowers, so I bought the RGC-24 instead.I'm sorry I don't read Swedish, but what possible reason would you have for attempting to ground anything to a flower pot?

[a_unique_person]

Oh come on. What does a hair conditioner do? What does a air conditioner do?

So a ground conditioner conditions the ground. Some of us call it a rake. :confused:

Someone should at a NSFW tag to this thread, I can't stop laughing out loud.

[ExtremeSkeptic]

I'm sorry I don't read Swedish, but what possible reason would you have for attempting to ground anything to a flower pot?
Because it is closer than the forest... A few years ago I dreamt about Nordost Valkyrja speaker cable running into the forest, but an animal had chewed it broken so I didn't like that way of grounding. But with RGC-24 I don't have a problem, the grounding path is very short.

[JoeEllison]

You know, I bought a $100 equalizer. Does all the stuff that the frauds claim their $7000 doodads do, without me wasting all that money.

[bruto]

Because it is closer than the forest... A few years ago I dreamt about Nordost Valkyrja speaker cable running into the forest, but an animal had chewed it broken so I didn't like that way of grounding. But with RGC-24 I don't have a problem, the grounding path is very short.

So how do you ground the flower pot?

[TjW]

So how do you ground the flower pot?
I know where you're going with this, and it's flowerpots all the way down.

[bruto]

I know where you're going with this, and it's flowerpots all the way down.Curses, foiled again! :turtle:

[bruto]

By the way, in some previous posts, I was assuming North American electrical wiring, in which the 240 volt supply is split at the fuse or breaker box into two circuits of 120 volts between one leg of the 240 and the grounded neutral. The ground line is separate, but joined with the neutral at the box. The resulting 3 prong outlet therefore has no voltage potential between the ground and the neutral unless there is a malfunction.

I see now that ES is in Sweden, where mains supplies are unpolarized 220 volt. So this means that the ground line is entirely separate from the power circuitry. I don't see why it should make a difference in this case, but regret any confusion caused by talking about the neutral line, which does not apply in Sweden.

[ExtremeSkeptic]

So how do you ground the flower pot?
The dirt and plants inside the flower pot is supposed to be the ground.

[bruto]

The dirt and plants inside the flower pot is supposed to be the ground.Why?

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Why?
Because that's what's inside the forest.

Something magical inside the forest sucks the noise from the audio system, and it seems like the creators of the RGC-24 Ground Conditioner found the magic!

[bruto]

Because that's what's inside the forest.

Something magical inside the forest sucks the noise from the audio system, and it seems like the creators of the RGC-24 Ground Conditioner found the magic!
I think you need to learn a little more about electricity, because it isn't the magic in the forest that makes the ground a ground.

[ExtremeSkeptic]

I think you need to learn a little more about electricity,I'm already studying about the electricity, instead of reading books about it, I listen to it instead!



because it isn't the magic in the forest that makes the ground a ground.Why is ground called ground if it isn't the ground? If you ground your system to the wall, it should go to the ground!

One thing is for certain, wherever the signal goes, it's too far away from the system, and the RGC-24 grounding boxes fix the problem.

[bruto]

I'm already studying about the electricity, instead of reading books about it, I listen to it instead!It would not hurt to do both, I think.


Why is ground called ground if it isn't the ground? If you ground your system to the wall, it should go to the ground! Conductivity would help.

One thing is for certain, wherever the signal goes, it's too far away from the system, and the RGC-24 grounding boxes fix the problem. On that I cannot comment, except that if they are actually grounded (i.e. connected to the earth by something that is conductive), then the ground is just as far away as ever, and if they are not actually grounded, then they are not doing what you think they are.

However, having watched as much of your video as I could tolerate, I see that your relationship to cables is, shall we say, unusual, and not likely to be trouble by the intrusion of mundane considerations like electrical engineering. I wish you happy trances, with whatever selection of colorful and oxymoronic adjectives makes you happy. I just wish sometimes that I were in the audio cable business!

[Giggywig]

However, having watched as much of your video as I could tolerate, I see that your relationship to cables is, shall we say, unusual, and not likely to be trouble by the intrusion of mundane considerations like electrical engineering. I wish you happy trances, with whatever selection of colorful and oxymoronic adjectives makes you happy. I just wish sometimes that I were in the audio cable business!
So I'm not the only one freaked out by his announcement that his system is his wife, or when he starts chanting "tweak, tweak, tweak"?

[JonnyFive]

I've heard that these ground conditioners are really, really, really good (http://www.thecableco.com/product.php?id=4022)...

...at bilking gullible people out of $450 a piece.

Seriously! It's all that magic ore and crap they have in there!

[BPSCG]

1) Connected the DAC1 ground wire to RGC-24.

Impressions: Whiter, blacker, clearer, sharper, tighter bass. What does that mean? :confused:
The transients with RGC-24 were the most amazing ever. With ERS Paper and Magix the transients become like fine sand,...Do what, now? :confused: What the :talk034: does that mean? They became hard, like quartz? They became shaped like tiny cubes? They got into your shoes?

...but they sacrifice blackness with greyness Huh? What do blackness and greyness sound like?

which makes it sound dull and dry. Funny, when I drink black coffee or black stout, it's generally not dull or dry.

Oh, wait, you said sacrificing the blackness and greyness make it sound dull and dry. Milk doesn't have any blackness or greyness in it, but it's not dull and dry.

This is very confusing to me.

But with RGC-24 the greyness turns into blackness and the sand becomes even finer without becoming drier. It sounds like getting sprayed by liquid, but it isn't brown spray, it is clear spray.Your music sounds like a clear spray of liquid sand... :boggled:

After a couple days I borrowed some money from the bank and ordered 10 more of these. Why???


From 4 to 8: Smoother and more distinct. There was less whiteness of the transients which made them less emphasized. It sounded a little boring.Shouldn't they all sound exactly the same?

From 8 to 4: Whiter high frequency transients. It makes the background behind it appear emptier and blacker because of less low-level detail. I liked the sound of 4 more than 8, but I just needed to get used to the sound of 8...Shouldn't they sound exactly the same?

1 vs 11: It sounds very weird. It's both heavier and thinner, sharper and smoother, louder and quieter... I'm not hearing any sound signatures anymore.:eek:

Wow. I mean... like... just... wow. :jaw-dropp

ETA: What's a sound signature? I know what a key signature is.

[JonnyFive]

RGC-24 makes more positive improvements than ERS Paper and Magix levitation feet, but it also gives the smallest value for the money. After a couple days I borrowed some money from the bank and ordered 10 more of these. I won't be able to buy anything else for many years... That's how good RGC-24 is, it's my new favorite tweak!

Wait a tic... you say these things are $7000 in Sweden (which is, by the way, is about a 1500% markup over the suggested retail price), so you spend $70,000 of borrowed money on some BS "magic ore" product?

Even if you got the retail price, you just spent $4500 of borrowed money on an audio tweak.

I hope you have a job that pays very nicely (or rich parents, or a nice sum invested, or whatever), because it sounds like you have serious issues controlling buying impulses when it comes to audio junk.

[Smackety]

Does the system sound better than live? ($70K would probably hire a musician or two)

What do you listen to?

do you DJ? (I realize this is hard with a system that takes a month to warm up)

[fagin]

Simple solution for listening to mps 's - buy an ipod or similar. Spend the rest on a girlfriend.

[JonnyFive]

Simple solution for listening to mps 's - buy an ipod or similar. Spend the rest on a girlfriend.

Or, at the rate ES is going, a new Mercedes-Benz and the down-payment on a house.

[BPSCG]

($70K would probably hire a musician or two)Jeeze - you know, with $70,000, you could pay a pretty fair street musician twenty bucks an hour for a live, two-hour-long command performance in your own apartment, every day for almost five years.

[Giggywig]

I'm thinking the bass is not the only thing that's crazy around here.

[DRBUZZ0]

I'm already studying about the electricity, instead of reading books about it, I listen to it instead!


Okay, so rather than learn the theory you are using trial and error and seeing what sounds best. I'm all about hands-on education, but you might want to pick up a book on human perception, the placebo effect, subjective judgment and that sort of thing.

Also, you might want to consider that learning about electricity entirely through experimentation is a bit of a "reinventing the wheel" kinda thing. Also, it's kinda impossible to figure all that stuff out onesself. No single person ever did. Faraday, Ohm, Tesla, Volta, Hertz, Bell, Benjaman Franklyn, Luigi Galvani, Anyos Jedlik, Antonio Pacinotti and a bunch of others spent a hell of a lot of time and effort on it.





Why is ground called ground if it isn't the ground? If you ground your system to the wall, it should go to the ground!

One thing is for certain, wherever the signal goes, it's too far away from the system, and the RGC-24 grounding boxes fix the problem.

Um. By ground it doesn't mean "dirt" or "soil" or "something magic"

The term basically does come from the physical ground or "Earth ground." It can also mean a point on a circuit from which voltages are referenced, a neutral electrical point. Actually in practice you could have different "grounds" for example you might have a signal ground and a power ground in a system. But the reason the earth is used as the ground in general is that it's common and that it basically unifies everything.

But ground doesn't actually need to be the earth, depending on the circumstances. For example, in a car, you generally have a "negative ground" which is the frame of the car, connected to the negative terminal of the battery. If you check for continuity between the car and the "earth ground" you won't find it, because the tires are not conductive. So the whole car is not grounded to earth, but all things in it are grounded to the common ground of the car, which is said to be neutral. The power in the car is +12. But in reality you could actually say that the car frame is the power and call it -12 and then say that the wiring of the car is really ground. Of course, this would be a little strange and presents a couple of other issues, but it goes to show that the ground does not need to be the earth. Obviously in an aircraft or something ground can't be the earth. It would generally be the frame of the aircraft.

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Okay, so rather than learn the theory you are using trial and error and seeing what sounds best. I'm all about hands-on education, but you might want to pick up a book on human perception, the placebo effect, subjective judgment and that sort of thing.

Also, you might want to consider that learning about electricity entirely through experimentation is a bit of a "reinventing the wheel" kinda thing. Also, it's kinda impossible to figure all that stuff out onesself. No single person ever did. Faraday, Ohm, Tesla, Volta, Hertz, Bell, Benjaman Franklyn, Luigi Galvani, Anyos Jedlik, Antonio Pacinotti and a bunch of others spent a hell of a lot of time and effort on it.

That's because they didn't listen to the electricity. They only looked at it!




Um. By ground it doesn't mean "dirt" or "soil" or "something magic"

The term basically does come from the physical ground or "Earth ground." It can also mean a point on a circuit from which voltages are referenced, a neutral electrical point. Actually in practice you could have different "grounds" for example you might have a signal ground and a power ground in a system. But the reason the earth is used as the ground in general is that it's common and that it basically unifies everything.

But ground doesn't actually need to be the earth, depending on the circumstances. For example, in a car, you generally have a "negative ground" which is the frame of the car, connected to the negative terminal of the battery. If you check for continuity between the car and the "earth ground" you won't find it, because the tires are not conductive. So the whole car is not grounded to earth, but all things in it are grounded to the common ground of the car, which is said to be neutral. The power in the car is +12. But in reality you could actually say that the car frame is the power and call it -12 and then say that the wiring of the car is really ground. Of course, this would be a little strange and presents a couple of other issues, but it goes to show that the ground does not need to be the earth. Obviously in an aircraft or something ground can't be the earth. It would generally be the frame of the aircraft.Yes, the RGC-24 are the ground instead of the frame of the component.

[technoextreme]

That's because they didn't listen to the electricity. They only looked at it!
Wow. You can't listen to electricity!!!!! You can't look at it!!!!!

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Wow. You can't listen to electricity!!!!! You can't look at it!!!!!
If you look at the audio system that is powered by electricity, nothing happens, the audio system is just lying there on the floor doing nothing. But if you listen to it, you hear HUGE differences!

[technoextreme]

If you look at the audio system that is powered by electricity, nothing happens
Something happens. Something definatly happens. You can be deaf and still figure out that something is happening.:wide-eyed

[ExtremeSkeptic]

I'm not going to upgrade my DAC1 into something else because some people already changed their $20k sources into the $1k DAC1 (link (http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1099367560&read&keyw&zzdcs)).
2 days after I made that post I bought the same source they talked about in the link, I needed to know the truth myself! And the truth is that tweaks make bigger differences. I tried the same tweaks with my new source and I heard the same improvements, tweaks are great! Especially Magix levitation feet.

I have also changed my amp into T-Amp ($39) because it gives the best sound when using tweaks costing hundreds of times more, it's my new reference amp! Tweaks are great!

Also, my tweaked computer sounds better (less neutral but more like real life) than the dCS Verdi Encore transport which costs 100 times more. But the dCS Elgar Plus DAC is a little better than Benchmark DAC1 because it has more information and less emptiness. The dCS sounds smooth and green, the DAC1 sounded black and white which gave an illusion of transparency. This explains why the smooth/veiled Nordost Valhalla power cables were perfect matches with the DAC1. After I got the dCS stack I had to change my Valhallas into stock power cables to get synergy. The difference between power cables is bigger than ever before, it's because the RGC-24 makes everything more revealing. Stock power cables gives me the best sound in my system, as long as they are wrapped with ERS Paper.



RGC-24 Ground Conditioner for dCS

1 for dCS Verdi Encore (Firewire): More bass.
2 for dCS Verdi Encore (Firewire): About 30% further improvement.

8 for dCS Elgar Plus: Smoother with more detail. Everything is more distinct, tighter and there is more bass information. The brightness is gone, it has transformed into more information in the music.
2 for dCS Elgar Plus: The brightness hurts my ears! Something is missing in the music. The bass is still big because the muddiness makes it boomy, but information is missing.
8 for dCS Elgar Plus: The brightness is gone and there is more detail!

1 for computer (Toslink): More bass information but I'm not sure.



http://a150.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/89/l_0532da86cb6db731270ecc9bb956b035.jpg (http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/Apartment2/dCS/full.01.JPG)

http://a542.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/119/l_8c41cf9065d4ed6a15e0073a570f7cf5.jpg (http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/Apartment2/dCS/full.02.JPG)

http://a155.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/73/l_d3672018cc85d60b2e6ce51ebae7c01a.jpg (http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/Apartment2/dCS/full.03.JPG)

http://a101.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/127/l_c63d66fb0085b74430031023e43d5424.jpg (http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/Apartment2/dCS/full.04.JPG)




http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/System2/Stock/01.JPG (http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/System2/Stock/full.01.JPG)

[Olowkow]

Oooookaaaayyyyy...
I'm so totally liking the Salman Rushdie book as part of the tweak...

Some carpeting and sound absorbing material on the walls would help a lot. :D
I thought this thread died a timely death before Christmas.

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Oooookaaaayyyyy...
I'm so totally liking the Salman Rushdie book as part of the tweak...
I don't what you are talking about since I have never read a book in my life. I just use the books on top of my components because it makes it sound better.


Some carpeting and sound absorbing material on the walls would help a lot. :D

I don't need any room treatments because I'm using headphones.

[ExtremeSkeptic]

Here is the dCS Elgar Plus with books on top, it took hours to properly balance it.

I also installed my old Cary transport which I have mutilated inside. So now I have 3 transports in my system and each one have a very different flavor of sound.

I put a RGC-24 to the Cary transport and some brightness was removed.

http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/Apartment2/dCS/Elgar.books.JPG (http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/Apartment2/dCS/full.Elgar.books.JPG)

[bruto]

I don't what you are talking about since I have never read a book in my life. I just use the books on top of my components because it makes it sound better. Who would have guessed?:rolleyes:

[Olowkow]

Thanks, bruto. I was pondering a response to that one, but I didn't want to be the final poster.....












Oops!:)

[XBoxWarrior]

Here is the dCS Elgar Plus with books on top, it took hours to properly balance it.

Dude, I absolutely need, and desire the drugs you have in your possession.....


I also installed my old Cary transport which I have mutilated inside. So now I have 3 transports in my system and each one have a very different flavor of sound.

ahhhhhh, the good old, "Flavor of Sound"........I am so "Tasting It".

I put a RGC-24 to the Cary transport and some brightness was removed.

Now that is where you might have erred. Never put the RGC-24 directly to the Cary transport, it must be used in conjunction with the "Flower Pot". (re-upthread)

The "Brightness" removal was likely due to the fact that there was insufficient grounding.

But? Salmon Rushdie as a sound enhancer? :boggled:

[DRBUZZ0]

You know, if you your system is such an important possession of yours and you want it to be taken seriously, don't you think you might want to tidy up a bit around it? I mean, it won't necessarily make it sound any better, but it would look a lot more presentable without that ridiculous tissue paper taped to the cords like that.

[calebprime]

Jeeze - you know, with $70,000, you could pay a pretty fair street musician twenty bucks an hour for a live, two-hour-long command performance in your own apartment, every day for almost five years.

It's ok, Olowkow, I'll be the last to post here, with my plea that ES hire me to write music for him. I know we're not supposed to hustle here, but, but...70 grand. 70 grand. that's a lotta of the elusive spondoolic.