I sensed my wife's death!

[Rosencrantz]

This morning, I had been out of sorts and uncomfortable ever since I left home and kissed my wife goodbye. I rode my bicycle to work, with this pervasive feeling that something was terribly wrong, going much slower than I usually do. Something was not right with the world. I got to work, got some tea, and sat down at my computer. I began working through my email, but I was restless and aimless. It was like somebody on the edge of my consciousness was trying to get my attention.

A few minutes later, a well-meaning individual in the office sent everyone a report from a local news service that there had been a fatal car accident on a nearby freeway. My stomach lurched. What time was the accident? Not long ago, this was breaking news. My heart began to beat faster. I knew something was wrong. I just knew it.

In the past, I've been very skeptical of this kind of thing. People don't get this kind of intuitive information, and yet many of us would still like to believe that we do. This morning, I suddenly wondered if I knew something I should not, and how, and I had a horrible, ominous faith that some terrible thing had happened. It was just like those people who purport to have paranormal powers claim; Perhaps I have a special, spiritual connection to my wife, and therefore I sense when she is in danger.

I immediately called her at work, hoping my gut instinct was wrong. If she had indeed been hurt in this terrible accident, I knew my grief would be powerful, my emotions enhanced beyond reason, although I'm still very calm. I'm already a little jumpy from caffeine, of course, and I haven't had much sleep lately (it was a long weekend). Perhaps depriving myself from proper rest and drinking drugs has increased my latent psychic ability, I wonder? These are the thoughts that are flitting through my head as I dial and serenely listen to the rings. No answer.

As I set the phone down, I felt a strange, morbid satisfaction. Something horrifyingly paranormal seemed to have happened. As I fought back feelings of guilt for even considering it in this light, I thought in a detached way how remarkable this unpleasant situation was. Even if she was involved in the accident, there was no way to prove I had sensed anything, of course, because I had no evidence, hardly any advance notice, and only my own recollection of the events I was enacting. Isn't this exactly how this experience is typically described?

I pondered all this as the skeptical part of me dialed her cell phone. No answer. The usually suppressed, sleep-deprived, mystical part of me mentally shrugged and said "of course." I found myself shaking my head. Could this just be a coincidence? I mean, I was low on sleep, and it's not surprising that I would be feeling somewhat out of sorts. I love my wife dearly, and I often think about her. It's not like I knew she was in a car accident; I simply thought that something was wrong, and when I heard about the car accident, my mind made an obvious leap to a connection. But this doesn't mean I predicted anything, does it?

I understand how people come to believe, unshakingly, in paranormal events. I find myself wanting to feel like I was close to her in her last moments, that I was there for her. I want to believe that there is something more than a horrible end, that some connection exists between us beyond our physical proximity. I want to feel her again; I want that lovely feeling of her closeness next to me even if it's impossible. I want her to survive, even if she is dead -- I now reject that concept of death. It's not over. I can't accept that.

I'm still very calm, even as I ponder this. You might think I was just typing a memo if you looked in my office. There are no tears or trembling hands or anything like that. I guess I still don't believe it, as much as I am trying to make myself. I call her work number again, and it picks up on the first ring. "Hello?" a breathless voice says. "Honey, is that you?" "Yeah?" "Oh, nothing, I just heard there was an accident on 80." "Oh! Yeah, the traffic was really bad so I went the long way past the airport." "Oh, that's good. I'm glad you're okay." "Aw, I love you honey." "I love you too. Bye."

Hmm. This was an interesting experience, I think. I decide I must to share it with others involved with the JREF, and I mentally and narratively chide myself for even entertaining these fanciful notions. And I can't help but wonder: if I had discovered that she had been hurt or killed, would I have accepted it as a simple coincidence? Or would I have abandoned my skepticism and maintained the belief that I was special, and still had a connection to her beyond death, and had sensed her passing through some unexplained power of the mind and spirit?

[Skeptical Greg]

When we feel uneasy for any reason we start sifting through the possible reasons. When one of them turns out to be justifiable, it becomes a premonition. All of the discarded reasons are forgotten..

I hope when you return home today, you don't find that the fish has died..:D

[Phil]

Originally posted by Diogenes
When we feel uneasy for any reason we start sifting through the possible reasons. When one of them turns out to be justifiable, it becomes a premonition. All of the discarded reasons are forgotten..

I hope when you return home today, you don't find that the fish has died..:D
I have those days, too, where for some reason I feel uneasy; you know just sort of off kilter, strangely out of my groove. And of course the possibilities surge through my mind, like in Rosencrantz's experience. But usually it just turns out that my underwear is too tight.

I've switched to boxers.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

You got me! I really wish your thread title was different.

~~ Paul

[Chris Haynes]

I have had similar panics... when dear hubby was terribly late, and there were reports of a fatal accident. Fortunately, the reason he was late was BECAUSE of the accident.

This is an interesting topic in that I have similar experience that does relate.

For many many years my brother and sister both thought I had some psychic message about our mother's death. This was their explanation for the reason that my first statement on that dreadful morning was "Mom's dead, isn't she?"

But what they did not know, but I told them later was on that morning:

1) I woke up on my own after 9am... way past the time required to catch the school bus. I figured something was wrong when no one woke me up.

2) The first person I expected to see that morning was my mother, who had been away for a month taking care of her father's estate after his death... she was no where to be seen (I had a note on the door asking her to wake me up as soon as she got there).

3) As I walked down the hallway from mine and my sister's bedroom I passed by the maid (hey, it was overseas... it is pretty standard for to have a maid) who was in tears.

4) Before anyone saw me, I could see my father, brother and sister in a very distraught state as they were sitting in the living room.

Even as an 11 year old who had been accused of relating better to animals to humans... these were pretty obvious clues to what had occured.

(by the way, my father saw the airplane crash into the sea... he had no premonition, http://www.panamair.org/Accidents/accidents1.htm ... by the way Dec 13, 1968 was a Friday)

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Rosencrantz
And I can't help but wonder: if I had discovered that she had been hurt or killed, would I have accepted it as a simple coincidence? Or would I have abandoned my skepticism and maintained the belief that I was special, and still had a connection to her beyond death, and had sensed her passing through some unexplained power of the mind and spirit?
People like to scoff at anecdotes, but I don't think that one should discount the power of personal experience. I think that it would be quite hard for you to accept it as just coincidence and write it off as such. At the very least, you would become more of a "fence sitter" with regards to such stories. Why? Because it happened to you. You KNEW something was wrong and then whammo - something IS wrong. Very wrong. Combined witht the emotions that go along with such an event itself, the idea that you somehow knew beforehand can be quite powerful.

So, while I don't think that it would have brought you 180 degrees from skeptic to believer, I think it would have certainly pushed you further to the believer side - even if all that meant was that you don't automatically write off other's anecdotes.

I will now get off my amateur psychologist couch and say that I could be completely wrong about this - I don't really know you at all. But if you had been right (and I am glad that you were not) it would have been a very powerful personal experience that would be hard to shake.

[Rosencrantz]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
You got me! I really wish your thread title was different.Sorry! :) Maybe it should have been "I thought I sensed my wife's death?"

[Rosencrantz]

Originally posted by Thanz
People like to scoff at anecdotes, but I don't think that one should discount the power of personal experience. I think that it would be quite hard for you to accept it as just coincidence and write it off as such. At the very least, you would become more of a "fence sitter" with regards to such stories. Why? Because it happened to you. You KNEW something was wrong and then whammo - something IS wrong. Very wrong. Combined witht the emotions that go along with such an event itself, the idea that you somehow knew beforehand can be quite powerful.Even so, I must now consider the reality of the situation. I KNEW something was wrong, and then flop - something WASN'T wrong. Not wrong at all. The idea that I knew beforehand is powerful, but now seems completely bogus. Is my psychic ability flawed? Was I sensing something in the distant future or past? How is my premonition different from other psychic visions?

If my wife had died, I always would have had a little story that I sensed her passing -- perhaps I wouldn't have really believed it, but it would have been one of those little "huh, funny" sort of stories. But surely it would simply have been a coincidence, or an educated guess like Hydrogen Cyanide describes?

Consider this: suppose, as Diogenes suggests, I return home to find that my fish has died. Does this count as a psychic prediction? I suppose if I were more credulous and had not made such a big deal about my wife, I could easily convince myself that THAT was what was making me feel bad. Or suppose, Glod forbid, something actually does happen to her, perhaps on her way home today. Does that mean I was right all along? Is that proof of the paranormal?

At what point does it cross the line from an odd feeling and become a psychic vision?

Originally posted by Thanz
I will now get off my amateur psychologist couch and say that I could be completely wrong about this - I don't really know you at all. But if you had been right (and I am glad that you were not) it would have been a very powerful personal experience that would be hard to shake. That's what worries me, since I can now see plainly that it was not in any way paranormal. :( How easy it must be for a person to be convinced by a coincidence, and easier still to be taken advantage of in that confused and emotional state!

[thaiboxerken]

I think the point of the story flew over someone's head. Rosencrantz's experience isn't rare, and it's rather common.. it's just that most people tend to forget the "misses" right away. If a "hit" comes, then they chalk it up as paranormal. It's selective memory, and it happens during cold readings as well.

Glad to hear your wife is ok, Rosen.

But if you had been right (and I am glad that you were not) it would have been a very powerful personal experience that would be hard to shake.

Duh, that's the human mind. It remembers the significant and weird stuff.. mundane events are often forgotten as soon as they happen. When a "premonition" turns out false, it is often forgotten.

[Phil]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken . . . Duh, that's the human mind. It remembers the significant and weird stuff.. mundane events are often forgotten as soon as they happen. When a "premonition" turns out false, it is often forgotten. [/B]
Or your underwear is too tight.

Damn, I'm getting nothing out of that joke.

But that was my point. In my own adolescent way, I was pointing out that the wierd feelings, or "premonitions", are usually dismissed because there is really nothing out of the oridinary taking place. But if you happen to be experiencing a wierd feeling and then something coincidentally occurs, you remember the wierd feeling as not being mundane (tight underwear), but as significant, as others have suggested, and start to draw any number of possibly outrageous conclusions.

[UKBoy1977]

First of all it is perfectly normal to be concerned that it might be your wife involved in the accident.

The point is there were probably 1000 other men who heard the radio too. They all had the same gut wrenching feeling you did. They all 'knew' something was wrong. They all phoned their respective partners. 999 were relieved to hear her voice as you did. Panic over, and the whole event will be forgotten.

The other guy won't be so lucky, he has lost his wife. And because he 'knew' it was her in that accident, he's single-handedly proven the existence of premonitions.

Except he hasn't. But you will never, ever convince him of that.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Phil

Or your underwear is too tight.


Nah, i wear boxers.. But, maybe that was still a premonition, you felt the opposite of what it true. Using believer reasoning, you can turn misses into hits as well. Heck, I could tell you that I wear boxers today and you can claim to forget and then "psychically" predict that I wear boxers tomorrow.

[Iamme]

I *TOO* got sucked into this thread...thinkking the 'old lady' had cashed it in. And as I'm reading the post, I'm thinking, "How on earth could he be posting about this in a skeptics forum?!"

This effect is quite similar to one we recently discussed about how people have this sensation that someone is standing behind them. Sometimes there is. Sometimes there isn't. Therefore, you are being fooled by your 'feeling'. And, the feeling was probably programed into your head, through years of hearing people ask, "Haven't you ever felt like somebody is standing behind you...?"

[SquishyDave]

It would be extremely difficult if something horrible did happen to shrug this off as a coincidence. How many of us could?

But maybe given this experience if something later on did happen to your fish and you were feeling the same way at the time, maybe remembering this would help you fight the evil within. :)

[Loki]

Rosencrantz,

Was I sensing something in the distant future or past?
Now you're getting the hang of it! If not today, then tomorrow. Or next week. Or next year. Or perhaps not actually you personally, but someone close to you. Or someone you went to school with.

But really, no matter what the details... this *was* a paranormal experience you know!! :cool:

[neofight]

Originally posted by Rosencrantz
At what point does it cross the line from an odd feeling and become a psychic vision?


Hi, Rosencrantz! At no point! lol I, too, am glad your wife is fine. :) However, even if, Ed forbid, some terrible thing had actually befallen your wife that day, I don't think that the nagging feeling you were getting could ever be considered a "psychic vision". At most, it would have been some sort of a premonition.

A "psychic vision" from what I understand from someone who's said that she had one, is just that. A mental image of your wife actually crashing in her car, or a quick flash of the aftermath of the accident, or something along those lines. You didn't actually *see* anything like that, so I don't think it's accurate to use that term. ;)

Had you experienced something like that, I think you might have been even more shaken than you were just thinking unsettling thoughts. Especially, Ed forbid, if your vision had come true.......neo

[neofight]

Originally posted by Loki
Now you're getting the hang of it! If not today, then tomorrow. Or next week. Or next year. Or perhaps not actually you personally, but someone close to you. Or someone you went to school with.

But really, no matter what the details... this *was* a paranormal experience you know!! :cool:

Okay, okay, Loki! Enough with the sarcasm. We get the point! lol :p ......neo

[Loki]

Neofight,

We get the point!
Point? What point? :p

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Rosencrantz
Even so, I must now consider the reality of the situation. I KNEW something was wrong, and then flop - something WASN'T wrong. Not wrong at all. The idea that I knew beforehand is powerful, but now seems completely bogus. Is my psychic ability flawed? Was I sensing something in the distant future or past? How is my premonition different from other psychic visions?
I don't know if your premonition is any different from other psychic visions - except for the fact that it did not come true. I don't think you have any psychic powers (sorry to burst your bubble :p )so I don't think that what you don't have can be 'flawed'.

If my wife had died, I always would have had a little story that I sensed her passing -- perhaps I wouldn't have really believed it, but it would have been one of those little "huh, funny" sort of stories. But surely it would simply have been a coincidence, or an educated guess like Hydrogen Cyanide describes?
It is definitely more likely that it would be a coincidence. From your story, it sounds like it would not be an "educated guess" as there were no real clues to go from. Convincing yourself to believe it was just a coincidence could be very difficult, though.

Consider this: suppose, as Diogenes suggests, I return home to find that my fish has died. Does this count as a psychic prediction? I suppose if I were more credulous and had not made such a big deal about my wife, I could easily convince myself that THAT was what was making me feel bad. Or suppose, Glod forbid, something actually does happen to her, perhaps on her way home today. Does that mean I was right all along? Is that proof of the paranormal?
Last question first: Proof of the paranormal? No. It is just another anecdote. Whether it would make YOU believe it was paranormal is something only you can know. But I do think that the more skeptical a person is, the less likely they are to find confirmation of whatever "psychic vision" they had. For example, if you did go home and find your fish dead, I don't think that you would connect it to your feeling that your wife had been hurt. In fact, once you found out that your wife was fine, you would probably forget about the instance in a relatively short period of time.

At what point does it cross the line from an odd feeling and become a psychic vision?
Good question. The line probably varies from person to person, and it probably varies with how close the 'vision' was to reality - both in actual events and in actual time. For example, if someone who worked at the WTC had a dream that the buildings blew up on the night of September 10, felt uneasy in the morning and decided to take the day off, there is probably no way you could dissuade that person from believing they had a psychic vision. If they dreamt about a building on fire two months before 9/11, it would depend on the person as to how 'psychic' they feel. Personally, I'd say not at all to my second example, but some would feel a powerful vision.

That's what worries me, since I can now see plainly that it was not in any way paranormal. :( How easy it must be for a person to be convinced by a coincidence, and easier still to be taken advantage of in that confused and emotional state!
I agree. People need explanations. The larger the event in someone's life, the more of a need for an explanation. In those times, for many people, "coincidence" just doesn't cut it as a satisfactory explanation.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Thanz

People like to scoff at anecdotes, but I don't think that one should discount the power of personal experience. I think that it would be quite hard for you to accept it as just coincidence and write it off as such. At the very least, you would become more of a "fence sitter" with regards to such stories. Why? Because it happened to you. You KNEW something was wrong and then whammo - something IS wrong. Very wrong. Combined witht the emotions that go along with such an event itself, the idea that you somehow knew beforehand can be quite powerful.




People don't always scoff at anecdotes.. Sometimes they enjoy them. But they are still anecdotes..


There are any number of ' Very Wrong ' events occuring at any given instant at time. If I happen to feel uneasy; which of those events would I suppose caused that feeling.. Why should I feel more uneasy about my son falling out of a tree, than the destruction of Alderon and it's millions of souls.? What is the mechanism that sorts those signals out?


Why should I NOT feel uneasy, when any number of terrible things are happening to any number of people at any given instant in time..

Or is it just my shorts, after all ?

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Diogenes
There are any number of ' Very Wrong ' events occuring at any given instant at time. If I happen to feel uneasy; which of those events would I suppose caused that feeling.. Why should I feel more uneasy about my son falling out of a tree, than the destruction of Alderon and it's millions of souls.? What is the mechanism that sorts those signals out?
Did you just have a dream about alderan or your son? The uneasy feeling that Rosencrantz was talking about had to do with a premonition of a specific harm, not some sor tof general uneasyness. I have no idea what mechanism might filter these things out. I am not sure what you mean.

Or is it just my shorts, after all ?
For you, it is more likely to be the hat. That thing looks mighty tight.....

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Thanz

Did you just have a dream about alderan or your son? The uneasy feeling that Rosencrantz was talking about had to do with a premonition of a specific harm, not some sor tof general uneasyness. I have no idea what mechanism might filter these things out. I am not sure what you mean.



Your post suggested that surely these events were more than anecdotal.. If they are, there must be some mechanism to exlain them.

Whether it is a specific dream, premonition or an ' uneasy feeling'; why should anyone focus on one event ( typically a family member or close friend ), rather than all the other thousands of similar events that are occuring at any given time?

Just thought you might have some ideas about this.


For you, it is more likely to be the hat. That thing looks mighty tight.....


No doubt..:)

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Your post suggested that surely these events were more than anecdotal.. If they are, there must be some mechanism to exlain them.

Whether it is a specific dream, premonition or an ' uneasy feeling'; why should anyone focus on one event ( typically a family member or close friend ), rather than all the other thousands of similar events that are occuring at any given time?

Just thought you might have some ideas about this.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The incidents are definitely anecdotal. I am just saying that when it happens to YOU, it is no longer just an anecdote TO YOU. When you have had a personal experience that you can't explain, you are more likely to be open minded about other anecdotes from people who have had similar experiences that they can't explain either. Kind of like it being one thing to be told the stove is hot, and another to get burned by the stove.

So, when someone has one of these unexplained experiences, I think it generally pushes them closer to the "believer" side of the spectrum. How much they are pushed will depend on the specificity of the experience and the attitude of the person beforehand.

As to your specific question - why focus on family members or someone close - well, I think that it just naturally hits home more. If I dream of a plane crash, and then the next day a plane crashes in australia, I probably won't think of it much at all. If, however, a plane that someone I know and am close to crashes, that would definitely get my attention. It is just more specific to me - that degree of closeness makes it much more significant in a person's mind.

Another way to look at it is in terms of probabilities: The probability of the plane crash happening to someone I know is much much lower than the probability of any plane crash anywhere. Kind of like dreaming of winning the lottery - we know someone is going to win it. It would be extremely rare if you won it, though.

[Tricky]

I guess the lesson to be learned here is:

The more you worry, the more likely you are to have a "paranormal" experience at some point in your life.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Rosencrantz
Consider this: suppose, as Diogenes suggests, I return home to find that my fish has died.

OMG. Diogenes successfully 'viewed' the fact that you have a fish. This is clearly a paranormal vision that has not been refuted.
Bellbank.

N/A

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Thanz

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The incidents are definitely anecdotal. I am just saying that when it happens to YOU, it is no longer just an anecdote TO YOU. When you have had a personal experience that you can't explain, you are more likely to be open minded about other anecdotes from people who have had similar experiences that they can't explain either. Kind of like it being one thing to be told the stove is hot, and another to get burned by the stove.

So, when someone has one of these unexplained experiences, I think it generally pushes them closer to the "believer" side of the spectrum. How much they are pushed will depend on the specificity of the experience and the attitude of the person beforehand.

As to your specific question - why focus on family members or someone close - well, I think that it just naturally hits home more. If I dream of a plane crash, and then the next day a plane crashes in australia, I probably won't think of it much at all. If, however, a plane that someone I know and am close to crashes, that would definitely get my attention. It is just more specific to me - that degree of closeness makes it much more significant in a person's mind.

Another way to look at it is in terms of probabilities: The probability of the plane crash happening to someone I know is much much lower than the probability of any plane crash anywhere. Kind of like dreaming of winning the lottery - we know someone is going to win it. It would be extremely rare if you won it, though.

I understand what you are saying..

In re-reading my reply, I see that what I intended to impart isn't all that clear either..

I would certainly give more consideration to my personal ' premonitions ', than I would to those related to me by others..

What I also meant to question, and not necessarily of you, was; that if we are ' receiving ' these signals, why are so many ( millions perhaps ) filtered out, and we receive so few ( and usually about family and friends ) if any at all..

I have no reason to believe there is more at work here, than emotions and coincidence..

[Explorer]

Rosencrantz you said:

"Even so, I must now consider the reality of the situation. I KNEW something was wrong, and then flop - something WASN'T wrong. Not wrong at all. The idea that I knew beforehand is powerful, but now seems completely bogus. Is my psychic ability flawed?"

You may have read on another thread that I had a similar false alarm. I experienced a terrible feeling of dread walking through a street market, but nothing happened. This apparent irrational "feeling" must be quite common. In your case it coincided with the news of a road accident, and it is not surprising that you linked the feeling with the possibility of your wife's involvement as a result.

In the early days of my marriage, I suffered from panic attacks and maybe it is related to this kind of false "premonition" of a disaster. Have you ever suffered from panic attacks in your life?

[thaiboxerken]

I am just saying that when it happens to YOU, it is no longer just an anecdote TO YOU.

Sure it is, because things simply may not have happened as you observed it. That's why, in science, measurement and verification is very important. People often have flawed perceptions, that's why personal anecdotes cannot be relied upon as the only evidence of an event.

[RonSceptic]

I can remember several disturbing dreams featuring the death of loved ones. Thankfully not one of them has ever come true.

Unless I just happen to be a complete pyscho, I should imagine that most people experience this phenomon from time to time. It's probably something to do with stess or anxiety.

As has been made clear from other posts above, the crucial point is that, due to selective memory, we tend dismiss and forget such dreams pretty quickly if they are not reinforced by some actual event. However, should a real event actualy coincide with such a dream, it would obviuosly make a profound emotional impact.

But it's still coincidence nevertheless. The problem is that such examples can then be taken out of contect, embelished and trotted out as evidence of the paranormal.

As we know, this kind of anecdotal evidence is pretty much the only thing that believers can offer to support their claims.

[Rosencrantz]

Originally posted by Explorer
In the early days of my marriage, I suffered from panic attacks and maybe it is related to this kind of false "premonition" of a disaster. Have you ever suffered from panic attacks in your life? I don't know exactly what you mean by a panic attack, but I don't think I've suffered anything like that. The feeling I subconsciously linked to her death was just a sort of general malaise.

[Yahzi]

I sensed my mother's death.

She was in the hosptial with terminal breast cancer. I had been in there for 24 hours. We were waiting for my brother to get in on a late plane.

My mom told me to go home and get some sleep. The doctors said that we probably still had a day or so, and my sister was there. So I went home, laid down, and fell asleep.

15 minutes later I woke up, and stared at the phone. After a few minutes it rang. I already knew who was calling and why. My mother had gone to sleep, and so my sister left the room to get a cup of coffee. As soon as we were all gone, she left.

I don't know why I woke up before the phone rang - although I know for absolute fact that I did. But one caveat - I knew the doctors were wrong. They had been wrong from the get-go: consistently over-estimating the time we had left by orders of magnitude.

At no time did I think it was woo-woo. I just remembering feeling that it was par for the course.

[Explorer]

Rosancrantz said:

"I don't know exactly what you mean by a panic attack, but I don't think I've suffered anything like that. The feeling I subconsciously linked to her death was just a sort of general malaise."

A panic attack is something similar to agrophobia. A typical attack can occur when in a public place such as a supermarket or theatre where an irrational onset of anxiety takes place. No reason for it all, but the brain reacts in a fear response way, and the need to get out of the store or get away from the feeling is overwhelming. The anxiety is subsequently reinforced when the avoidance of embarrassment sets in. The self-reinforcing fear and anxiety can take about fifteen to twenty minutes to subside before self-control and normality takes over again.

Panic attacks are quite common in young males in their early twenties. The usual remedies are tranquillisers, but the real answer is to develop personal mind strategies to overcome the problem by force of will. Luckily, I was able to achieve the latter and have grown out of the problem. However, having posted on the subject here yesterday, I checked it out on the web, and I can confirm that panic attacks are indeed related to irrational "feelings of dread" and anxiety. Whether or not a "malaise" is the same thing is I suppose in the mind of the beholder. Anyway, for the skeptic, it does provide a rational and established answer to your anecdote.

[Titus Rivas]

I'd just like to add something from a "believer" in ESP ;)

What if any personal experience could make you (meaning skeptics such as Rosencrantz) rationally change your mind, rather than just lead you to an emotional interpretation, about the existence or plausibility of premonition?

Let's not forget that the main reason so many people believe in ESP is that at least several persons have experienced what they judged to be powerful instances of it. The original reason for people to believe in ESP, is personal experiences of oneself or other individuals, rather than experimental evidence.

Unless ESP would be logically impossible apriori (which would make believing in it irrational), why should personal experiences play no role in shaping our believes. I know that many personal experiences seem paranormal while they're not, but especially if an apparently paranormal experience happens to a skeptic we should think twice about it. Simply because he knows the common (simple and sophisticated) counter hypothesis and is more likely to take them into account.

What would convince you sooner of the existence of ESP, a powerful personal experience very hard to explain away, or statistical evidence from meta-analyis?

Best wishes,

Titus

[Loki]

Titus Rivas,

What would convince you sooner of the existence of ESP, a powerful personal experience very hard to explain away, or statistical evidence from meta-analyis?

What would convince me? Probably the powerful personal experience.

What should convince me? The statisical evidence.

Isn't this the point? That humans far too often react according to subjective personal interpretations, rather than to well-reasoned evidence? The validity of religion for most believers is rooted almost entirely in personal interpretation, despite that fact that most religions are, in detail, mutually exclusive. The vast majority of humans have a deep personal interpretation of religion - and the vast majority of people are wrong (must be, since the three biggest religions are contradictory - even if one is right, the other two are therefore wrong, making the 'winners' a minority)

If your point is "personal experience" can be true then I'd agree.
If your point is "personal experience" should always be preferred I'd disagree.
If your point is "personal experience" is sometimes a rational basis for drawing conclusions I'd only add that it's a very dangerous basis with far too much "margin for error" for my liking.

[Rolfe]

I thought the point was that a news report of an accident triggered a "nameless dread" feeling that the delayed wife had been a victim. Then events moved on so as to dispel that fear. The point being that such feelings are quite common, but easily forgotten if there is in fact no bad news. However, when they do happen to be followed by bad news, as is bound to happen now and again, then we have the deeply felt "personal experience" of premonition when in fact it was no such thing.

My mother is a paranoid worrier. Every time I've ever been a bit late, or not been in when she expected me to answer my phone, hysterics result. She's so bad that I think if anything ever did happen it would be obvious even to her that there was no special premonition going on, but when it's a more sporadic occurrence then the occasional coincidence is more likely to be embued with siginificance.

I recall once when I was a child and we'd been away from the house all day visiting relatives, the random thought entered my head, "what if the house has burned down while we were away?" I think this was a bit like the way random thoughts seem to enter the heads of "psychics", and they then assume they've had some special message. Well, it wasn't accompanied by any real fear, but I thought nobody would believe me if it did turn out to be true unless I said something in advance, so I voiced the thought to my parents. General consternation, "what a thing to say!" Of course the house was absolutely fine when we got back, and I imagine everyone but me has forgotten the incident. But what if there had been a fire? Psychic child!!! I just think this sort of thing happens so often that sometimes by chance it will be associated with an actual event, and these are the ones which are remembered. And of course the impression of the person who had the "premonition" will be extremely strong.

Talking of the power of personal experience, see the "Weird Story" thread elsewhere in the forum. That happened to me, and it was a much weirder experience than having an odd feeling of dread which turned out to be unfounded. It made a big impression on me, but of course as soon as the story becomes second-hand there are several ready explanations which I can't really argue with. Except that they don't FEEL true. Ain't people peculiar!

Rolfe.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Rosencrantz
This morning, I had been out of sorts and uncomfortable ever since I left home and kissed my wife goodbye. I rode my bicycle to work, with this pervasive feeling that something was terribly wrong, going much slower than I usually do. Something was not right with the world. I got to work, got some tea, and sat down at my computer. I began working through my email, but I was restless and aimless. It was like somebody on the edge of my consciousness was trying to get my attention.

A few minutes later, a well-meaning individual in the office sent everyone a report from a local news service that there had been a fatal car accident on a nearby freeway. My stomach lurched. What time was the accident? Not long ago, this was breaking news. My heart began to beat faster. I knew something was wrong. I just knew it.

In the past, I've been very skeptical of this kind of thing. People don't get this kind of intuitive information, and yet many of us would still like to believe that we do. This morning, I suddenly wondered if I knew something I should not, and how, and I had a horrible, ominous faith that some terrible thing had happened. It was just like those people who purport to have paranormal powers claim; Perhaps I have a special, spiritual connection to my wife, and therefore I sense when she is in danger.

I immediately called her at work, hoping my gut instinct was wrong. If she had indeed been hurt in this terrible accident, I knew my grief would be powerful, my emotions enhanced beyond reason, although I'm still very calm. I'm already a little jumpy from caffeine, of course, and I haven't had much sleep lately (it was a long weekend). Perhaps depriving myself from proper rest and drinking drugs has increased my latent psychic ability, I wonder? These are the thoughts that are flitting through my head as I dial and serenely listen to the rings. No answer.

As I set the phone down, I felt a strange, morbid satisfaction. Something horrifyingly paranormal seemed to have happened. As I fought back feelings of guilt for even considering it in this light, I thought in a detached way how remarkable this unpleasant situation was. Even if she was involved in the accident, there was no way to prove I had sensed anything, of course, because I had no evidence, hardly any advance notice, and only my own recollection of the events I was enacting. Isn't this exactly how this experience is typically described?

I pondered all this as the skeptical part of me dialed her cell phone. No answer. The usually suppressed, sleep-deprived, mystical part of me mentally shrugged and said "of course." I found myself shaking my head. Could this just be a coincidence? I mean, I was low on sleep, and it's not surprising that I would be feeling somewhat out of sorts. I love my wife dearly, and I often think about her. It's not like I knew she was in a car accident; I simply thought that something was wrong, and when I heard about the car accident, my mind made an obvious leap to a connection. But this doesn't mean I predicted anything, does it?

I understand how people come to believe, unshakingly, in paranormal events. I find myself wanting to feel like I was close to her in her last moments, that I was there for her. I want to believe that there is something more than a horrible end, that some connection exists between us beyond our physical proximity. I want to feel her again; I want that lovely feeling of her closeness next to me even if it's impossible. I want her to survive, even if she is dead -- I now reject that concept of death. It's not over. I can't accept that.

I'm still very calm, even as I ponder this. You might think I was just typing a memo if you looked in my office. There are no tears or trembling hands or anything like that. I guess I still don't believe it, as much as I am trying to make myself. I call her work number again, and it picks up on the first ring. "Hello?" a breathless voice says. "Honey, is that you?" "Yeah?" "Oh, nothing, I just heard there was an accident on 80." "Oh! Yeah, the traffic was really bad so I went the long way past the airport." "Oh, that's good. I'm glad you're okay." "Aw, I love you honey." "I love you too. Bye."

Hmm. This was an interesting experience, I think. I decide I must to share it with others involved with the JREF, and I mentally and narratively chide myself for even entertaining these fanciful notions. And I can't help but wonder: if I had discovered that she had been hurt or killed, would I have accepted it as a simple coincidence? Or would I have abandoned my skepticism and maintained the belief that I was special, and still had a connection to her beyond death, and had sensed her passing through some unexplained power of the mind and spirit?

Interesting Rosencrantz although I don't believe it constitutes any evidence against premonitions. Was the increased traffic due to the accident?

Glad your wife's ok BTW :)

[popsy]

Maybe you were really psychic and you have been communicating with your wife's ghost. :wink: Have you spoken to John Edward about it? :p

[espritch]

An interesting post. I would just like to note that I had a strong feeling that your wife wasn't really dead even before I got to the end of the story...and I was right! Does this mean I'm psychic?

[davidsmith73]

Well, we have had all these posts that say the anecdote shows us that Rosencrantz thought he had a psi experience when it turns out he had not. Assuming that he hasn't made this story up, lets look again.


This morning, I had been out of sorts and uncomfortable ever since I left home and kissed my wife goodbye. I rode my bicycle to work, with this pervasive feeling that something was terribly wrong, going much slower than I usually do. Something was not right with the world. I got to work, got some tea, and sat down at my computer. I began working through my email, but I was restless and aimless. It was like somebody on the edge of my consciousness was trying to get my attention.


This is the experience. It happens before he hears about the crash. It entails a feeling that something terrible is wrong with the world and he is uncomfortable. There is no mention that he feels anything has happened specifically to his wife at this point.


A few minutes later, a well-meaning individual in the office sent everyone a report from a local news service that there had been a fatal car accident on a nearby freeway. My stomach lurched. What time was the accident? Not long ago, this was breaking news. My heart began to beat faster. I knew something was wrong. I just knew it.


If we are to entertain the psi hypothesis then this would be the actual event that triggered his premonition. Now, I don't think its necessary that the actual physical event of the car crash is the trigger for the premonition. Alternatively, it could be a neural or cognitive event that is the trgger, in this case how he is feeling at the time that he hears about the crash. In other words, it may be the case that if the office guy had played a big (not very funny) practical joke on everyone it would still have produced the same emotional reaction in Rosencrantz which would serve just as well as a trigger for his premonition. So here, the premonition could quite easily constitute a reaction from his nervous system to the emotional events that are going to take place in the future. Indeed, the news that he eventually heard was very likely to evoke a strong emotional reaction about the safety of his wife which he clarifies throughout the anecdote.

Now, notice that Rosencrantz introduces the fact that he felt his wife is involved in the crash after the time when he initially hears about it. This is a perfectly natural reaction especially since the crash happened nearby and at the appropriate time when his wife was travelling to work plus the fact that he loves his wife dearly. However, his feelings about his wife need not be anything to do with the premonition aspects of the experience. In fact they are much more likely to be part of the cognitive event that was the trigger for the premonition. In fact any escalation of emotional feelings that happened after he heard the news are likely to reinforce the trigger for the premonition.

All in all, I would say that this anecdote is suggestive of a premonition but only a premonition about how he was going to react emotionally to the breaking news, but I would like to add that no anecdote can provide reliable evidence.

However, when people use this kind of anecdote as showing how feelings of premonition often turn out not to be true, they may be making type II errors, as I think I have demonstrated.

Finally here are a few papers on which the above interpretation is based.

http://www.boundaryinstitute.org/articles/presentiment99.pdf

http://a1162.fmg.uva.nl/~djb/publications/2002/present_2002_porto.pdf

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by davidsmith73
Well, we have had all these posts that say the anecdote shows us that Rosencrantz thought he had a psi experience when it turns out he had not. Assuming that he hasn't made this story up, lets look again.




This is the experience. It happens before he hears about the crash. It entails a feeling that something terrible is wrong with the world and he is uncomfortable. There is no mention that he feels anything has happened specifically to his wife at this point.




If we are to entertain the psi hypothesis then this would be the actual event that triggered his premonition. Now, I don't think its necessary that the actual physical event of the car crash is the trigger for the premonition. Alternatively, it could be a neural or cognitive event that is the trgger, in this case how he is feeling at the time that he hears about the crash. In other words, it may be the case that if the office guy had played a big (not very funny) practical joke on everyone it would still have produced the same emotional reaction in Rosencrantz which would serve just as well as a trigger for his premonition. So here, the premonition could quite easily constitute a reaction from his nervous system to the emotional events that are going to take place in the future. Indeed, the news that he eventually heard was very likely to evoke a strong emotional reaction about the safety of his wife which he clarifies throughout the anecdote.

Now, notice that Rosencrantz introduces the fact that he felt his wife is involved in the crash after the time when he initially hears about it. This is a perfectly natural reaction especially since the crash happened nearby and at the appropriate time when his wife was travelling to work plus the fact that he loves his wife dearly. However, his feelings about his wife need not be anything to do with the premonition aspects of the experience. In fact they are much more likely to be part of the cognitive event that was the trigger for the premonition. In fact any escalation of emotional feelings that happened after he heard the news are likely to reinforce the trigger for the premonition.

All in all, I would say that this anecdote is suggestive of a premonition but only a premonition about how he was going to react emotionally to the breaking news, but I would like to add that no anecdote can provide reliable evidence.

However, when people use this kind of anecdote as showing how feelings of premonition often turn out not to be true, they may be making type II errors, as I think I have demonstrated.

Finally here are a few papers on which the above interpretation is based.

http://www.boundaryinstitute.org/articles/presentiment99.pdf

http://a1162.fmg.uva.nl/~djb/publications/2002/present_2002_porto.pdf

Excellent post David.

[Rosencrantz]

Originally posted by davidsmith73
All in all, I would say that this anecdote is suggestive of a premonition but only a premonition about how he was going to react emotionally to the breaking news, but I would like to add that no anecdote can provide reliable evidence.I'm not sure I understand your assertion. Are you suggesting that I had a premonition that I would be worried about my wife?

Originally posted by davidsmith73
However, when people use this kind of anecdote as showing how feelings of premonition often turn out not to be true, they may be making type II errors, as I think I have demonstrated.What is a type II error? I don't see where you have demonstrated this sort of error, so I don't follow you.

[kittynh]

Wait until your kids learn to drive. Then everytime they take out the car, you are SURE something is going to happen. And certainly for a lot of teenagers something does.

Or if they take up an extreme sport. The funny thing is that when I did get a bad call "can you come to the emergency room ASAP?" was one time when I was really calm before hand. She was fine though it took the entire Putney Vermont fire department to rescue her, and she was in pain for a bit.

[Loki]

davidsmith73,

All in all, I would say that this anecdote is suggestive of a premonition but only a premonition about how he was going to react emotionally to the breaking news,...
All in all, I woudl say that this is a clear example of the way in which psi research constantly has to dig deeper through layers of interpretation to "find" some sort of effect.

He had a premonition that later in the day he would "emotionally upset". This premonition affected him - effectively, it created a mindset that lead to the "emotional situation" that occured later. If he hadn't had the premonition, he wouldn't have had the emotional situation. A nice little catch 22.

[davidsmith73]

Originally posted by Rosencrantz
I'm not sure I understand your assertion. Are you suggesting that I had a premonition that I would be worried about my wife?



If we are to entertain the idea that this was a paranormal event then yes. It would have been a premonition about all the emotional reactions you felt when you heard the news which included worry about your wife.

I'm not saying your story demonstrates a premonition. I just think its quite possible.


What is a type II error? I don't see where you have demonstrated this sort of error, so I don't follow you.

in hypothesis testing its when you wrongly conclude that the null hypothesis is true. This isn't really the appropriate situation to apply errors of this sort but it would be equivalent to you concluding that nothing paranormal took place when in fact it did.

[davidsmith73]

Originally posted by Loki
davidsmith73,


All in all, I woudl say that this is a clear example of the way in which psi research constantly has to dig deeper through layers of interpretation to "find" some sort of effect.


This is not science. This is just my interpretation of what may have happened. All you sceptics are so adamant that this anecdote demonstrates that what we think is paranormal turns out not to be. Yet you all also base this firm conclusion on what you consider useless and unreliable anecdotes. I am merely suggesting how this may qualify as a real psi event. Psi researchers are aware of how sceptics can underestimate the possible subtle ways that psi manifests itself in the real world.


He had a premonition that later in the day he would "emotionally upset". This premonition affected him - effectively, it created a mindset that lead to the "emotional situation" that occured later. If he hadn't had the premonition, he wouldn't have had the emotional situation. A nice little catch 22.


Oh really ? If he hadn't has his premonition I think he would have had quite a similar reaction to the news of the car crash actually. It would probably have been less intense but that may be how these real psi events get reinforced. Of course the way to settle these kind of unprovable disputes is to take the phenomenon into the lab and try to recreate the situation under controlled conditions. But to some thats just irrational ;)

[Rosencrantz]

Originally posted by davidsmith73
in hypothesis testing its when you wrongly conclude that the null hypothesis is true. This isn't really the appropriate situation to apply errors of this sort but it would be equivalent to you concluding that nothing paranormal took place when in fact it did. Can you give me an example of what you would consider an appropriate null hypothesis for the concept of premonition?

[Loki]

davidsmith73,

Psi researchers are aware of how sceptics can underestimate the possible subtle ways that psi manifests itself in the real world.
I'd suggest (again) that Psi researchers are coming to the conclusion that *if* psi manifests itself in the real world it does so only in subtle ways - despite the claims of Uri Geller, John Edward, etc.

[davidsmith73]

Originally posted by Rosencrantz
Can you give me an example of what you would consider an appropriate null hypothesis for the concept of premonition?

Information about a future event is not obtained by means other than those currently recognised by science.

[Rosencrantz]

Originally posted by davidsmith73
Information about a future event is not obtained by means other than those currently recognised by science. Let me make sure I understand your position. You are suggesting that in circumstances like mine, where what I thought was a premonition later appeared not to be, a null hypothesis like this one would prevent me from concluding that information was obtained solely from means that science can explain? And you are also suggesting that my initial conclusion, which was basically that I did not have a premonition, is flawed?

[davidsmith73]

Originally posted by Rosencrantz
Let me make sure I understand your position. You are suggesting that in circumstances like mine, where what I thought was a premonition later appeared not to be, a null hypothesis like this one would prevent me from concluding that information was obtained solely from means that science can explain? And you are also suggesting that my initial conclusion, which was basically that I did not have a premonition, is flawed?


In circumstances like yours its not possible to conclude any with certainty. The null hypothesis I gave would be one to use in a controlled experiment. However, I am suggesting that your initial conclusion that you did not have a premonition might be flawed. Thats just my opinion.

[espritch]

If we are to entertain the idea that this was a paranormal event then yes. It would have been a premonition about all the emotional reactions you felt when you heard the news which included worry about your wife.

I would just like to point out that in this case, it was probably his worried mind set prior to hearing the news about the car wreck that caused him to take special note of this event. Car accidents are a common enough occurence that it would probably be unusual for someone hearing about one to assume without further evidence that it involved a close relative. If this was a primonition of his emontional reaction to this news, then it was a self fufilling primonition.

[Rosencrantz]

Originally posted by davidsmith73
In circumstances like yours its not possible to conclude any with certainty. The null hypothesis I gave would be one to use in a controlled experiment.I still don't understand. Assuming I'm testing the concept of premonitions in a controlled environment, how would this null hypothesis nullify anything? To declare that "information about a future event is not obtained by means other than those currently recognised by science," one has to know for certain both that information has been obtained and by what means science can convey such information. You seem to be assuming that I received information in my story, whereas to me it seems I received erroneous information. And how is that information conveyed? There might be a perfectly scientific explanation, albeit quite supernatural seeming. For example, suppose my tooth fillings transmitted a very quiet radio signal, allowing me to hear the local traffic report on a subconscious level. Is that a premonition? It seems to me that this null hypothesis is too vague.

Originally posted by davidsmith73
However, I am suggesting that your initial conclusion that you did not have a premonition might be flawed. Thats just my opinion. I realize that my example is anecdotal, but it seems to me that in any experiment of this nature, we must rely upon the terms of what the individual claims to have experienced. I had what I thought was a premonition of my wife's death. How can we prove that it was or wasn't? It seems to me the only way to do so is to wait and see if what I predicted comes to pass. If the prediction is vague enough, science can still explain the results, because chances are good that some part of the prediction can be said to be true. What was I predicting? Either I was predicting my wife's death, or I was predicting that I would be worried. I don't think it would be proper for me to say that it was the latter after I have seen the results. Were this part of a controlled experiment, I think this would have to be scored as a miss.

[Explorer]

Since first reading this thread, the more I am convinced that you had an anxiety attack. If you care to read up on the subject you will find that your experience is easily explained by this very common mental condition. The false anxiety that is created irrationally in your mind could easily be interpreted as a pre-cognitive expectation of a disaster.

As you have said above, how does science separate out the common anomolies of the brain from the genuine(if there are any) paranormal experience.