Monkeys show sense of justice

[Yahzi]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3116678.stm

The researchers were not surprised that the monkeys showed a sense of fairness, but they were taken aback that they would turn down an otherwise acceptable reward.
Monkeys demanding equal pay for equal work. :p

Morality is simply the expression of the biological facts of social existance. Get over it, already.

;)

[UnrepentantSinner]

One of these days I need to dig though my National Geographics from a few years ago and find a short article they did on monkeys exhibiting compassion for a troop member that was retarded. The troop member in question was examined and showed genetic characteristics similar to those that cause a certain type of mental retardation in humans. The rest of the troop went out of their way to facillitate the retarded member.

While monkeys might not have words, or be fully cognizant of concepts like compassion and justice, I don't know how anyone can doubt they're capible of those sorts of abstract concepts.

[Lord Kenneth]

Primates (including us) are simply some of the most mentally complex and interesting creatures on Earth.

[sorgoth]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth
Primates (including us) are simply some of the most mentally complex and interesting creatures on Earth.


I must know a lot of people who aren't primates then :D .


Seriously, though, hasn't it been proven that chimpanzees (And the like) are very near to the 'threshhold' for language? They seem to have most, if not all, of the emotions we do, which is why I object to testing products on primates.

[Brown]

Here's the story from CNN and AP. (http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/09/17/jealous.monkeys.ap/index.html) Basically, one money was given a better "deal" than other monkeys. The monkeys who got the "bad" deal were twerked off that another monkey was getting a better deal!

But what I really found interesting was this:Brosnan ... noted that the capuchin that got the grape didn't react at all to the unjustness of the situation. That "probably implies there is still a lot of difference between their sense of fairness and ours," she said. It seems to me that this result implies a lot of similarity!! In our society, the ones who benefit from preferential treatment, the ones who rake in undeserved rewards, and the ones who get what they want for reasons other than merit never seem to understand why everyone else is so upset about the situation. I have known lots of people who had the "monkey attitude": "Hey, I got mine. Tough for you if you didn't get yours."

[neutrino_cannon]

I'm going to have to concoct the "biologocal theory of morality" now.

[c4ts]

Religious people are just going to say that justice is natural because God made it so.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Brown
It seems to me that this result implies a lot of similarity!!
:D :D :D
Now when the rich monkey starts offering to split his grape with the poor monkey, then we better start worrying.

[Dancing David]

When I heard the story on NPR, there was an opposing theory that there was no sense of fairness, but that there was disgruntlement and a sense of unfairness.

But if you think about the conomics of monkeys trrops it makes sense that they would want the same share.

[roger]

It was this sentence that really caught my eye:
Scientists say this work suggests that human's sense of justice is inherited and not a social construct

I understand the concept that if behavior is exhibited across several species than it may be explained by inheritence.

However, it strikes me that this sentence assumes that monkeys do not have a social construct, and/or human's social constructs are not biologically based.

Of couse, those are the BBC writer's words, and may not accurately reflect the researcher's ideas.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Dancing David
When I heard the story on NPR, there was an opposing theory that there was no sense of fairness, but that there was disgruntlement and a sense of unfairness.
Yes, my fundie at work dismissed the results too, claiming that the poor monkey merely became bored with the cucumber once he saw that grapes were available.

Pointing out that dogs would never do this - they might want the other treat, but they aren't going to turn down theirs - didn't cut any ice with him.

Amazing how many ad hoc explanations people can come up with. As I explained to him, if he saw a person commit this act, he would classify it as moral outrage without hesitation. But if a monkey does exactly the same thing, well, that can't be moral outrage, because monkeys don't have morals.

The assumption is not on the part of the scientists: it is on the part of the people questioning the result. They know that monkeys can't behave morally, so they have to find alternate explanations.

Shades of Descarte. Animals only appear to have feelings, just like p-zombies: they are merely clever automatons. Unlike humans, of course. Because we're special.