Micro Spheres in world trade center dust solved.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Now that I know the source to the micro spheres what will I do with my time?
The source is most probably the New York City and State department of transportation.
I would say more however I want to inform Apollo20 first.
Marry Christmas.

[Firestone]

Now that I know the source to the micro spheres what will I do with my time? Anything you like, just be safe!
The source is most probably the New York City and State department of transportation. Fascinating (no irony).
I would say more however I want to inform Apollo20 first. We'll be patient, but don't wait too long.
Marry Christmas.Merry Christmas to you too.

[Gravy]

Look forward to seeing your results. However, since iron-rich microspheres are an expected result of a hot office building fire, I'd expect that there'd be more than one source of them.

[Jonnyclueless]

I look forward to seeing your micro balls -er wait...

[Max Photon]

Well while our master stroker decides whether to reach for a mashie on this one, let's try to decipher the Gaelic for our general viewership.

Hold on...he's testing the wind with blades of grass.........this could take awhile...

...so while we wait, it should be mentioned that what our roughian is trying to communicate is that he thinks he has discovered a source of microspheres that appears consistent with the WTC microspheres.

Ah...he's reaching for his tiny putter...

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Look forward to seeing your results. However, since iron-rich microspheres are an expected result of a hot office building fire, I'd expect that there'd be more than one source of them.

Gravy you probably walk or drive over billions of them every time you travel to ground Zero.
Also they are most likely formed from pyrite oxidation.
Although I believe some of the micro spheres in the world trade center, are from oxidation events in the buildings some of which I recreated I think others might just be migrants hauled in.
PS. micro sphere are not to be found in the structural concrete at the World Trade Center, they would undoubtedly be present in some non structural components though.
The key to figuring it out was actually provided by Dr. Jones, magnetic separation.

[pomeroo]

Dr. Frank Greening has graciously allowed me to listen in on a fascinating e-mail exchange between him and Steven Jones. I have not asked him for permission to post any of it, as I'm sure he will present the results when he feels ready.

Be assured, however, that Frank is doing very well--very well indeed!

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Dr. Frank Greening has graciously allowed me to listen in on a fascinating e-mail exchange between him and Steven Jones. I have not asked him for permission to post any of it, as I'm sure he will present the results when he feels ready.

Be assured, however, that Frank is doing very well--very well indeed!

Yes he is, although I do not want to give away what I found out right now I might be sending you a PM.

[BenBurch]

Yes he is, although I do not want to give away what I found out right now I might be sending you a PM.

Didn't you just tell us? Pyrites? From the street composition?

Makes perfect sense as much urban dust derives from wear to pavements and to tires as well. One theory on the apparent rise in asthma in urban areas is that this has occurred since high-milage tires were first sold in the early 60s, and that it is caused by the "rubber" particles.

[Max Photon]

Cool!

So we should have no trouble finding zillions more?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Didn't you just tell us? Pyrites? From the street composition?

Makes perfect sense as much urban dust derives from wear to pavements and to tires as well. One theory on the apparent rise in asthma in urban areas is that this has occurred since high-milage tires were first sold in the early 60s, and that it is caused by the "rubber" particles.

Pyrites are not in the streets, However the biproduct of Iron sulfide combustion is.

[DGM]

Why do I have this feeling it has something to do with the type of fuel/diesel the city/state uses in their vehicles?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Why do I have this feeling it has something to do with the type of fuel/diesel the city/state uses in their vehicles?

Not the fuel of the vehicles it is another fuel though, however the machine that burns it is way bigger than a house, and never moves just creates steam and spins.

[BenBurch]

Why do I have this feeling it has something to do with the type of fuel/diesel the city/state uses in their vehicles?

It is found in some crude oil.

[BenBurch]

Not the fuel of the vehicles it is another fuel though, however the machine that burns it is way bigger than a house, and never moves just creates steam and spins.

#2 Bunker or Bunker A fuel?

[DGM]

Not the fuel of the vehicles it is another fuel though, however the machine that burns it is way bigger than a house, and never moves just creates steam and spins.
I see, I was thinking that way from the posts you made about soot from the mufflers.
Can't wait to see how the correspondence with Jones goes. He's not going to like his "thermate" story dieing.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I see, I was thinking that way from the posts you made about soot from the mufflers.
Can't wait to see how the correspondence with Jones goes. He's not going to like his "thermate" story dieing.

Think of a substance that looks like sand, and would be hauled in by the ton in a covered truck, did anyone see anything like that after 9/11?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Marry Christmas.


Do I have to? :(

;)

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Do I have to? :(

;)
NO, it was just a spell checker error.

[Mr. Skinny]

Not the fuel of the vehicles it is another fuel though, however the machine that burns it is way bigger than a house, and never moves just creates steam and spins.

Think of a substance that looks like sand, and would be hauled in by the ton in a covered truck, did anyone see anything like that after 9/11?
The only thing that comes to mind immediately is coal fines burned in a watertube boiler which, in turn, is used to power a turbine generator.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

The only thing that comes to mind immediately is coal fines burned in a watertube boiler which, in turn, is used to power a turbine generator.

Your close, very close, and what do coal fines leave?

[OldTigerCub]

Your close, very close, and what do coal fines leave?

Fly ash, from coal fires. Im not sure what coal fines leave...:p

[A W Smith]

wait a min Frank posted about Fly Ash days ago here.

I cant find his post. maybe it was at blogger or was quoted in an email and posted somewhere. I KNOW i saw it.

[CHF]

Dr. Frank Greening has graciously allowed me to listen in on a fascinating e-mail exchange between him and Steven Jones. I have not asked him for permission to post any of it, as I'm sure he will present the results when he feels ready.

Be assured, however, that Frank is doing very well--very well indeed!

Steven Jones is a guy who uses doctored photos as "evidence," who starts his own journal to avoid peer-review, and who thinks Jesus Christ visited America.

Ron, are you telling me that this same person is now getting creamed in an exchange with a real scientist?

That seems kinda far-fetched :rolleyes:

[twinstead]

Steven Jones is a guy who uses doctored photos as "evidence," who starts his own journal to avoid peer-review, and who thinks Jesus Christ visited America.

Ron, are you telling me that this same person is now getting creamed in an exchange with a real scientist?

That seems kinda far-fetched :rolleyes:

I'm right with you; I'm totally shocked. ;)

[twinstead]

Wait. You mean Jesus Christ didn't visit America...?

[Max Photon]

The Purina-feed factory-farmed trout are starting to circle...

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Fly ash, from coal fires. Im not sure what coal fines leave...:p

A 1994 survey of all 50 state transportation agencies indicated that eight states have made some recent use of fly ash as a mineral filler in asphalt paving. These states included Connecticut, Louisiana, Michigan, Nebraska, New York, Ohio, Oregon, and Pennsylvania. Most of these states reported that the performance of fly ash as a filler material was fair to good. However, in two states (Michigan and Nebraska), fly ash reportedly performed poorly as a filler material and was either discontinued or eliminated from further use.(7)
The streets in Gravy's town are paved with Magnetite.
http://www.tfhrc.gov/hnr20/recycle/waste/cfa52.htm


However it is important to remember there are two types wet and dry, wet usually has the magnetite removed magneticly and is used in structural concrete.

Drying

Fly ash must be in a dry form when used as a mineral filler. This means that moisture-conditioned fly ash and reclaimed ponded fly ash are unsuitable for this application.


Storage

Fly ash is collected at the power plant and stored in silos in a dry form. As a result, it can readily be loaded into pneumatic hauling vehicles and delivered to a hot mix asphalt plant.

IT is also important to remember it can also be used with sand and lime as a soil stabilizer.
OR by itself as fill for heavy machinery roads bases.
It is also very abundant and cheap in New York city, actually cheaper than sand.
Since it is a waste product that usually goes in a landfill.
http://www.rmajko.com/soilstab.htm

[twinstead]

The Purina-feed factory-farmed trout are starting to circle...

Purina? Dude. Purina Fine Cuts with Chicken is all my cat will eat. Trout? Not a chance. Patches will only eat poultry or tuna.

Oh, the whole Jones V Greening thing? If you think Greening is some kind of mindless JREF follower then you haven't been paying attention. We irritate him to no end sometimes, and he has no problem calling us on it.

Out of ANYBODY who has a problem with Jones, Frank is the THE ONE whom you should listen to.

All this talk of cat food has made Patches very hungry. Thanks for making me have to get up and feed her...:rolleyes:

[A W Smith]

Purina? Dude. Purina Fine Cuts with Chicken is all my cat will eat. Trout? Not a chance. Patches will only eat poultry or tuna.

Oh, the whole Jones V Greening thing? If you think Greening is some kind of mindless JREF follower then you haven't been paying attention.

We irritate him to no end sometimes, and he has no problem calling us on it.

Out of ANYBODY who has a problem with Jones, Frank is the THE ONE whom you should listen to.

All this talk of cat food has made Patches very hungry. Thanks for making me have to get up and feed her...:rolleyes:

Well my damn cats wont drink anything but Poland Spring water. They just knock over the tap water.

[Max Photon]

From this discussion and others, one can see why (http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/e/ea/Ambiguity.gif) thermite was the catalyst of choice for the WTC controlled demolitions...

[twinstead]

Well my damn cats wont drink anything but Poland Spring water. They just knock over the tap water.

All I can say is cats are like kids; good thing I love her--otherwise I'd kill her.

[twinstead]

From this discussion and others, one can see why (http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/e/ea/Ambiguity.gif) thermite was the catalyst of choice for the WTC controlled demolitions...

Cause it looked EXACTLY like what the official story suggests but requires intrepid armchair google investigators like Max to figure it out?

[CHF]

If this latest news on the WTC dust is confirmed it just might trigger mass suicides in TwooferLand.

I get the impression that after their other pathetic failures the kooks were really pinning high hopes on Jones and his dust. He is, after all, one of only a handful of twoofers who even pretends to be scientific.

[DavidJames]

If this latest news on the WTC dust is confirmed it just might trigger mass suicides in TwooferLand.

I get the impression that after their other pathetic failures the kooks were really pinning high hopes on Jones and his dust. He is, after all, one of only a handful of twoofers who even pretends to be scientific.

9/11 CTists beliefs are not evidence based, consequently when a piece of "evidence" turns out to be nothing at all, it has no real impact on their beliefs.

They will simply move from the Micro Sphere to something else. Actually, what they will do is put the sphere's back in the CT roulette wheel. No doubt a future spin will see it surface again.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

It gets worse how about asphalt fly ash roofing, several applications there of.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5573586.html

[Mr. Skinny]

Your close, very close, and what do coal fines leave?
Sorry, but I'm at the limit of my knowledge. I inspected a plant once that made cinder block out of fly ash. I only know that, when wet, fly ash is like quicksand in it "suckability" (I stepped in some accidentally, and it pulled my shoe off my foot. :D)

I do know that burning coal fuel in boilers leaves slag deposits. Otherwise, I'll wait until y'all that are in on the secret feel it's OK to reveal it to us commoners. :)

[pomeroo]

The Purina-feed factory-farmed trout are starting to circle...


Hey, Max, you hear that singing?

Yes, you hear it.

It's da Fat Lady, Max. She's singing for you.

[pomeroo]

From this discussion and others, one can see why (http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/e/ea/Ambiguity.gif) thermite was the catalyst of choice for the WTC controlled demolitions...


It's over, Max.

You've been EXPOSED.

As the kids in my neighborhood used to say, "You been steamed, reamed, and dry-cleaned."

[pomeroo]

Steven Jones is a guy who uses doctored photos as "evidence," who starts his own journal to avoid peer-review, and who thinks Jesus Christ visited America.

Ron, are you telling me that this same person is now getting creamed in an exchange with a real scientist?

That seems kinda far-fetched :rolleyes:


This debate makes Custer's Last Stand look like a one-run ballgame.

[Horatius]

wait a min Frank posted about Fly Ash days ago here.

I cant find his post. maybe it was at blogger or was quoted in an email and posted somewhere. I KNOW i saw it.



http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3269290#post3269290


Money quote:

Thanks RedIbis....

I am not questioning Jones' data, I am questioning his interpretation of said data.

You need to take a look at Volume III of the famous "Particle Atlas" by Walter McCrone. This provides scanning electron micrographs and EDX spectra for thousands of common materials. The section from pages 760 - 780 is most interesting since it shows flyash microspheres from large domestic waste incinerators burning paper, wood and plastics as well as flyash from coal-fired furnaces. The EDX spectra show major peaks from Al, Si, K, Ca, and Fe together with smaller peaks from Ti, S and Cl.

Jones' spectra are a perfect match for FLY ASH!

[FactCheck]

The streets in Gravy's town are paved with Magnetite.
http://www.tfhrc.gov/hnr20/recycle/waste/cfa52.htm


However it is important to remember there are two types wet and dry, wet usually has the magnetite removed magneticly and is used in structural concrete.



IT is also important to remember it can also be used with sand and lime as a soil stabilizer.
OR by itself as fill for heavy machinery roads bases.
It is also very abundant and cheap in New York city, actually cheaper than sand.
Since it is a waste product that usually goes in a landfill.
http://www.rmajko.com/soilstab.htm
Sounds like a leading hypothesis to me. I would love to put this on my site. I can't wait to see the complete hypothesis. :)

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Sorry, but I'm at the limit of my knowledge. I inspected a plant once that made cinder block out of fly ash. I only know that, when wet, fly ash is like quicksand in it "suckability" (I stepped in some accidentally, and it pulled my shoe off my foot. :D)

I do know that burning coal fuel in boilers leaves slag deposits. Otherwise, I'll wait until y'all that are in on the secret feel it's OK to reveal it to us commoners. :)

Exactly that is why when mixed with lime it helps to stabilize loose soils. The alumina is very water absorbent like a sponge.
The magnetite in fly ash actually attracts charged Ions.

[Minadin]

Fly ash is often added to cement to make lighter-weight concretes. I'm not sure if any were used in the WTC floor pans or not. It's possible, since they were non-structural members (well, more or less).

[Max Photon]

I must be slow.

If there are numerous highly-credible non-CD explanations for the iron microspheres, what does that have to do with MAX-MIHOP? My model doesn't lean on the stuff.

In fact, I suspect part of the reason I got tossed from STJ911 is exactly because I said, in big bold letters, that the microspheres are going to be a dead end because of chain of custody issues, and because - as NIST so kindly warned us in FAQ #12 - thermite residue tests are inconclusive.


Sometimes I think I'm even more JREF NISTIAN than you guys.


Max They Hate Our Freedoms Photon

(How was that?)

[pomeroo]

I must be slow.

If there are numerous highly-credible non-CD explanations for the iron microspheres, what does that have to do with MAX-MIHOP? My model doesn't lean on the stuff.

In fact, I suspect part of the reason I got tossed from STJ911 is exactly because I said, in big bold letters, that the microspheres are going to be a dead end because of chain of custody issues, and because - as NIST so kindly warned us in FAQ #12 - thermite residue tests are inconclusive.


Sometimes I think I'm even more JREF NISTIAN than you guys.


Max They Hate Our Freedoms Photon

(How was that?)


(From NIST's FAQ)


The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.
Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.
Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions.

[Totovader]

I must be slow.

If there are numerous highly-credible non-CD explanations for the iron microspheres, what does that have to do with MAX-MIHOP? My model doesn't lean on the stuff.

In fact, I suspect part of the reason I got tossed from STJ911 is exactly because I said, in big bold letters, that the microspheres are going to be a dead end because of chain of custody issues, and because - as NIST so kindly warned us in FAQ #12 - thermite residue tests are inconclusive.


Sometimes I think I'm even more JREF NISTIAN than you guys.


Max They Hate Our Freedoms Photon

(How was that?)


But Max... what does your model lean on? Certainly not evidence.

[DavidJames]

I must be slow.Keen insight!
If there are numerous highly-credible non-CD explanations for the iron microspheres, what does that have to do with MAX-MIHOP? My model doesn't lean on the stuff. That's the beauty of your model, it doesn't "lean" on any facts therefore it's impervious to revelations like this.

Well Done Max

[pomeroo]

Keen insight!
That's the beauty of your model, it doesn't "lean" on any facts therefore it's impervious to revelations like this.

Well Done Max



Max's model has grown too shopworn for the runway. She leans on the kindness of strangers at this juncture.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Fly ash is often added to cement to make lighter-weight concretes. I'm not sure if any were used in the WTC floor pans or not. It's possible, since they were non-structural members (well, more or less).

In those concretes, the magnetite particles are undesirable, so water is added, and a magnet is used to remove the magnetite, Fe304.
So no those floor pans are unlikely to be the source of the micro spheres.
However Cement board, and tiles and other concretes might use it asphalts, and the sand and aggregates trucked in to make roads might just be.

[beachnut]

I must be slow.

If there are numerous highly-credible non-CD explanations for the iron microspheres, what does that have to do with MAX-MIHOP? My model doesn't lean on the stuff.

In fact, I suspect part of the reason I got tossed from STJ911 is exactly because I said, in big bold letters, that the microspheres are going to be a dead end because of chain of custody issues, and because - as NIST so kindly warned us in FAQ #12 - thermite residue tests are inconclusive.


Sometimes I think I'm even more JREF NISTIAN than you guys.


Max They Hate Our Freedoms Photon

(How was that?)
Your model with respect to 9/11 rests on fantasy. I already know you have nothing to worry about, your ideas are so far removed from the reality of 9/11 you are safe from the micro spheres.

[beachnut]

In those concretes, the magnetite particles are undesirable, so water is added, and a magnet is used to remove the magnetite, Fe304.
So no those floor pans are unlikely to be the source of the micro spheres.
However Cement board, and tiles and other concretes might use it asphalts, and the sand and aggregates trucked in to make roads might just be.
I think the USGS had fly ash in the concrete from the samples they found around the WTC. They had sourced the Fe and fly ash to concrete. I look these things up once and do not file them. Back to the search, which the first time was on a thread far, far, away.

[Gravy]

In those concretes, the magnetite particles are undesirable, so water is added, and a magnet is used to remove the magnetite, Fe304.
So no those floor pans are unlikely to be the source of the micro spheres.
However Cement board, and tiles and other concretes might use it asphalts, and the sand and aggregates trucked in to make roads might just be.Interesting, but since iron microspheres were sought by investigators as markers of WTC dust (in some cases at a considerable distance from the site), because they weren't present in background dust, I don't know where that leaves your idea.

[ref]

Interesting thread. Waiting for Frank to give his ideas, and some info about his e-mail conversations with Jones :cool:

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I think the USGS had fly ash in the concrete from the samples they found around the WTC. They had sourced the Fe and fly ash to concrete. I look these things up once and do not file them. Back to the search, which the first time was on a thread far, far, away.

Yes they did, however they did not say which concrete, magnetic magnetite separation has been going on since the 1960s with the bi product sold as sand blasting abrasive and for washing cleaning coal.
As well as many other uses.

Concrete board, tile, grout and asphalt products however use dry fly ash, until the mid 1990s no one had figured out a way to commercially remove the magnetite from it.

You basically have three grades of Fly Ash only one grade gos into structural concrete, or concrete flooring, that is Hydrated magnetic separated fly ash without micro spheres.

However Hydrated pond bottom fly ash un separated goes into grouts, concrete boards, tiles, or ceramics.

Non Hydrated Fly ash, goes into asphalt products, and road bed stabilization with lime or concrete.

That is why Dr. Jones found no fly ash micro-spheres in the concrete they were removed using the same technique that he used to search for them.
The micro spheres are one of the more valuable parts of the fly ash, and have been separated and sold for years before the fly ash goes into concrete.

[T.A.M.]

CC:

Great Work. Look forward to a complete Description/Discussion.

Max:

I do not think anyone here has been attacking your theory. There are lots of threads to do that in. Sit back and enjoy the discussion as a fellow JREF NISTIAN...lol

TAM:)

[Apollo20]

Steven,

I would like to contribute to this research, so I will answer your questions
about OXYGEN, etc.......

It is well known that oxygen is not well characterized by EDX, especially
EDX done on old instruments. In fact, if you look in McCrone's book, which
was published in 1973, none of the samples show oxygen peaks! Thus we have
entry 432 "Zinc Oxide" which only has peaks for zinc! Clearly, the absence
of oxygen peaks does not mean the absence of oxygen in the sample! The
spectra in McCrone's book were probably recorded with an electronic "gate"
to eliminate low energy X-rays entirely. This was done because so-called
pulse pile-up of low-energy X-rays in first generation EDX instruments
caused detector saturation. Thus the low-energy peaks were not recorded.
This is why the lightest element reported in any sample listed in McCrone's
book is Na with an X-ray at 1.04 keV. Nevertheless, McCrone's Particle Atlas
remains a very useful source of X-ray data of dusts, minerals, etc.

Even using a modern EDX instrument I would be very careful about quoting a quantitative oxygen number. Why is this? Well, light elements like carbon,
oxygen and nitrogen emit very low energy X-rays ~ 0.5 keV or less. These
X-rays are not very penetrating and have trouble escaping from the surface
of the sample and passing through the window of the detector. However,
oxygen also tends to chemisorb on the surface of many materials, enhancing
the oxygen peak. The net result is that oxygen is not reliably measured by
EDX. For this reason I used Auger electron analysis, with a touch of
argon-ion sputtering to removed chemisorbed species, to quantify elements
like C, O, N, in fly ash. This technique does not use X-ray emission to
detect elements.

Now as for the particular spectrum in McCrones's book I forwarded to you, it was just one example of a combustion-related material that has microspheres
and high iron. I will forward the spectrum of the incinerator ash as well.
It shows microspheres and iron is present in significant concentrations too.
But please remember McCrone's sample was NOT magnetically separated. I am
quite sure a magnetically separated ash sample, such as the one you have for
the WTC dust, would show high iron by definition!

And one final point, my good friend Carrol Sanders has reminded me that fly ash is frequently used as aggregate in lightweight concrete, so microspheres may have been present in the Twin Tower's concrete even before the fires of 9/11. Given that so much concrete was pulverized during the collapse of the towers, fly ash debris would be present in large amounts in the rubble pile.

Regards, Frank

----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Jones
To: greening
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: Query

Frank,

1. As you read my query, you'll notice that I said I thought some sort of
cooperation could be worked out -- with you. When I made reference to those "hell-bent" on discrediting discoveries I was not thinking about you , but rather two or three others, out of perhaps a couple hundred collaborators I have worked with. I learned to be very careful before forming
collaborations.

At the same time, it is true I would have to get to know you better before
establishing a full collaboration if such were desired.

2. "Al : Si : S : K : Ca : Ti : Fe = 8 : 10 : 2 : 1 : 4 : 1 : 5"

a. Where is the oxygen? Oxygen is a major component of almost all the
iron-aluminum spheres in the WTC dust I have studied -- often the PRINCIPAL component.

b. How do these "fly-ash" spheres form, given the high melting point of
iron (about 1530 C)? Do the incinerators use forced-air?

Thanks for your comments, which I will consider more tomorrow.

Steven
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

Frank,

1. The plot you provided is from burning COAL, not paper, plastics, wood
etc. Or are you saying there was coal in the WTC?

2. Where is the oxygen in the spectrum? The oxygen content is
significant, yet the spectrum appears to be skewed, cut off at low X-ray
energies... please explain -- how much Oxygen was present? Oxygen must be
present in a spectrum to provide a match with spectra I have shown -- not
the case in the one example you provided!

All of the iron-aluminum spheres I have found in the WTC dust show abundant
OXYGEN. Often O is the principal element in the spheres.

3. Can you get a Fe-O-K-Al-Si spectrum (with oxygen, O) and sphere
production from burning office materials? A few examples please -- if you
can do it.

4. This coal (your reference) was burned at high temperatures -- the
caption refers to "high stoker temperature." This is a significant
difference from the WTC fires -- or -- Are you claiming such high temps
occurred in the WTC fires? Hot enough to produce iron-rich spheres? (Iron
melts at 1538 C)


Steven J


Reply sent Dec 25th:

Steven,

So, Steven, may I review where we presently stand in this debate. You have carried out EDX analysis of samples of WTC dust and claim that two types of particles detected by you in the dust serve as evidence for the use of thermite/thermate incendiary devices during the destruction of the towers. These particles are microspheres and thin “chips” that are iron and aluminum-rich. Since thermite is essentially a mixture of iron oxide and aluminum, and spherical particles are evidence of melting, you believe that Fe and Al in microspheres can only be attributable to thermite residues. (Am I correct so far?)

Now here you have me at a disadvantage because you have not published or made any of your EDX spectra available to me. The best I have to work with are video clips of some talks you have given where you show some overheads of EDX spectra. If I am to really get to grips with your research I need to see copies of the spectra. And, by the way, I notice you immediately posted the spectrum I sent to you on 9//blogger, but did not post one of your spectra for comparison. Why not? My spectrum is from a book that is readily available in any good science library, but the same cannot be said about your spectra.

Anyway, to return to the debate, I have countered your argument that the WTC dust contains thermite residues with the suggestion that your particles are more likely to be fly ash from the combustion of materials in the Twin Towers. As evidence I have offered two examples of EDX spectra that I found in McCrone’s Particle Atlas. In one of my e-mails I gave you some approximate peak height ratios from these spectra as an indicator of the elemental ratios in the samples because the Particle Atlas does not give any quantitative analytical data.

I know full well that peak height ratios in EDX spectra are not directly proportional to the elemental concentrations in the sample. There are X-ray absorption and emission coefficients that need to be considered which are sample-matrix dependent. Nevertheless, peak height ratios do offer some approximate indication of the sample composition, especially for elements with similar atomic weights. Thus I have at least demonstrated that iron and aluminum-rich microspheres may be produced by the combustion of carbonaceous materials such as coal, wood, cardboard and paper.

Now I see you are quibbling about me sending you the spectrum of coal ash, asking me somewhat rhetorically: Was coal being burnt in the Twin Towers? Here, I would say you are missing my point which is that the mineral matter in natural carbon-based fuels forms an ash residue after the fuel is combusted that always contains Al, Si, K, Ca, and Fe – precisely the most abundant elements, (after the ubiquitous oxygen), in your WTC samples as revealed by their EDX spectra!

And here it is my turn to quibble with a statement you made in your Boston talk of Decembe15th, 2007. In this talk you compare the EDX spectra of red chips and microspheres found in WTC dust samples with the spectrum from commercial thermite and claim that all the spectra are essentially the same because they show peaks from O, Al, Fe, K, and Si. Now this is indeed quite strange because Si is definitely NOT an ingredient of commercial thermite. What is even stranger is that in your Boston talk you do not mention S as a component of the microspheres. Yet sulfur was so important to you just a few months ago – you know, back when you claimed that S was a key ingredient in the thermate variety of thermite used to demolish the Twin Towers. Now apparently, S has undergone a transmutation into Si! Perhaps this is why in your Boston talk you use the word “thermite” in place of your usual “thermate”. So what is it Steven: thermite or thermate?

But the presence of Si in your samples is indeed very significant because Si is always found in the ash produced by the combustion of wood, paper or municipal waste. So let’s focus on ash from these materials because wood, paper and municipal waste would be quite similar to the office combustibles feeding the WTC fires. Furthermore, municipal solid waste MSW combustor ash is well characterized. See for example:

http://www.tfhrc.gov/hnr20/recycle/waste/mswcal.htm

Thus we see that MSW ash typically contains up to 21 % Si, 8 % Ca, 8 % Fe, 1 % K and 5 % Al. Spherical particles up to 60 microns in diameter have also been reported in MSW incinerator ash formed when this type of waste material is burned at ~ 1000 deg C:

http://suwic.group.shef.ac.uk/posters/p-ash.pdf

There is also considerable data available on the properties of ash from the combustion of pulp and paper waste. See for example:

www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk1/tape4/PQDD_0032/MQ64248.pdf

Here we find that Si, Al, Ca and Fe are the main elements found in ash produced by burning pulp and paper wastes. In addition the major portion of the fly ash thus derived is formed as molten droplets of fused inorganic material found in the as-received pulp and paper feed. It is reported that fusion of minerals such as quartz, feldspar and clay results in the formation of glassy spherical particles.

So, Steven, I think you need to eliminate all of these naturally occurring spherical particles that are routinely formed in office fires – particles like your WTC microspheres that are rich in Si, Al, Ca, Fe, and K - before you start suggesting that such particles could only come from thermite, (themate?) combustion residues.

Frank


----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Jones
To: greening
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 11:16 AM

Subject: High temps needed to form iron-rich spheres, meaning of ratios
"Only the very lowest melting substances form spheres." -- quoting directly from the figure caption of the spectrum you sent. I agree with THAT comment. The caption also mentions "metal foil" as part of the incinerated material, and I suspect melted aluminum would be present. NOT melted iron! Which leads again to the question I posed to you yesterday, based on the first spectrum you sent, which you seem to have thus far neglected:

4. This coal (your reference) was burned at high temperatures -- the caption refers to "high stoker temperature." This is a significant difference from the WTC fires -- or -- Are you claiming such high temps occurred in the WTC fires? Hot enough to produce iron-rich spheres? (Iron melts at 1538 C)

With regard to the lack of oxygen peaks in the older EDX machine you showed, I understand the difficulty these machines had -- and accept your explanation that an older EDX system was used for these spectra. The version I am using was installed very recently and is state-of-the-art. I will ask the lab director how good the oxygen percentages are in this new system.

Meanwhile, this new system does provide percentages of Fe, Al, Oxygen, etc.
So I have to ask -- what is the meaning of the ratios you provided, e.g.,

"Al : Si : S : K : Ca : Ti : Fe = 8 : 10 : 2 : 1 : 4 : 1 : 5"

When you answer this, we can make more direct comparisons with the percentages provided by the new EDS system. (Take your time as I'm traveling to be with family for Christmas. Merry Christmas! btw, and I wish you a speedy recovery as a friend tells me you had surgery recently.)

Thanks for the conversation.

Steven

PS -- some time ago, we crushed a concrete sample obtained from the WTC rubble, used magnetic concentration, and looked for iron-rich spheres. There were NONE found.

[BigAl]

Yes they did, however they did not say which concrete, magnetic magnetite separation has been going on since the 1960s with the bi product sold as sand blasting abrasive and for washing cleaning coal.
As well as many other uses.



You don't list sheetrock as a use of fly ash. Is there a reason for this for the purpose of this discussion?

http://www.wrashg.org/ccps.htm

[Dr Adequate]

I must be slow.

If there are numerous highly-credible non-CD explanations for the iron microspheres, what does that have to do with MAX-MIHOP? My model doesn't lean on the stuff.

In fact, I suspect part of the reason I got tossed from STJ911 is exactly because I said, in big bold letters, that the microspheres are going to be a dead end because of chain of custody issues, and because - as NIST so kindly warned us in FAQ #12 - thermite residue tests are inconclusive.


Sometimes I think I'm even more JREF NISTIAN than you guys.


Max They Hate Our Freedoms Photon

(How was that?) Sometimes, it's not all about you.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

You don't list sheetrock as a use of fly ash. Is there a reason for this for the purpose of this discussion?

http://www.wrashg.org/ccps.htm

Read your link FGD does not have micro spheres in it.

It is mostly pure calcium-sulfate.

Here is some more very good reading.
http://www.mcrcc.osmre.gov/PDF/Forums/CCB2/1c.pdf

http://www.mcrcc.osmre.gov/PDF/Forums/CCB2/3d.pdf


http://www.imp.mtu.edu/abstracts.htm

[e^n]

Max They Hate Our Freedoms Photon

(How was that?)

I'm quoting you here Max but my reply is actually addressed to everyone.

We really shouldn't be so harsh with Max, he has an interesting personality and articulates his thoughts in an odd manner but he has yet to lie, fake evidence, ignore evidence or be intellectually dishonest in any manner I have seen.

Indeed he has 'admitted' (and then retracted) that his reason for constructing MAX-MIHOP is that he is taking all of the evidence with a presupposition of controlled demolition.

Max
While this may not be accurate of how you feel, it is consistent with the evidence you provide. You have essentially invented 'laser ignited thermite shock tube' with only a single piece of dubious evidence and trumpeted it as a complete theory. I have nothing against you and frankly nothing against your theory, it is even somewhat plausible but as I have said before you are lacking in one critical component.

If the WTC towers were strong enough that they required a catalyst to initiate collapse then evidence is required of this. You say that evidence could have been found by looking inside perimeter column bolt access holes, now assuming you have checked out all of NCSTAR 1-3 and still been left without evidence there is logically nowhere left to look for this specific piece of evidence. Given this, you must now begin the search for alternate evidence which can exist.

I am sure you are aware of the problems with inferring the 'best explanation' in any scenario and that you must have logical evidence based reasons for choosing a specific explanation. What you are asking us to do however is accept your theory based on the same inference. You have not presented any evidence of your theory which is not easily attributed to another source. If however you could provide evidence which either conflicts with another source or is entirely separate then we could logically choose your theory.

You must admit that even if you are right, without any solid evidence we cannot logically accept your theory? I hope you don't find this insulting because while I may have been a little aggressive and harsh to you you seem to be entirely honest and that is something I respect.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Steven,

I would like to contribute to this research, so I will answer your questions
about OXYGEN, etc.......

It is well known that oxygen is not well characterized by EDX, especially
EDX done on old instruments. In fact, if you look in McCrone's book, which
was published in 1973, none of the samples show oxygen peaks! Thus we have
entry 432 "Zinc Oxide" which only has peaks for zinc! Clearly, the absence
of oxygen peaks does not mean the absence of oxygen in the sample! The
spectra in McCrone's book were probably recorded with an electronic "gate"
to eliminate low energy X-rays entirely. This was done because so-called
pulse pile-up of low-energy X-rays in first generation EDX instruments
caused detector saturation. Thus the low-energy peaks were not recorded.
This is why the lightest element reported in any sample listed in McCrone's
book is Na with an X-ray at 1.04 keV. Nevertheless, McCrone's Particle Atlas
remains a very useful source of X-ray data of dusts, minerals, etc.

Even using a modern EDX instrument I would be very careful about quoting a quantitative oxygen number. Why is this? Well, light elements like carbon,
oxygen and nitrogen emit very low energy X-rays ~ 0.5 keV or less. These
X-rays are not very penetrating and have trouble escaping from the surface
of the sample and passing through the window of the detector. However,
oxygen also tends to chemisorb on the surface of many materials, enhancing
the oxygen peak. The net result is that oxygen is not reliably measured by
EDX. For this reason I used Auger electron analysis, with a touch of
argon-ion sputtering to removed chemisorbed species, to quantify elements
like C, O, N, in fly ash. This technique does not use X-ray emission to
detect elements.

Now as for the particular spectrum in McCrones's book I forwarded to you, it was just one example of a combustion-related material that has microspheres
and high iron. I will forward the spectrum of the incinerator ash as well.
It shows microspheres and iron is present in significant concentrations too.
But please remember McCrone's sample was NOT magnetically separated. I am
quite sure a magnetically separated ash sample, such as the one you have for
the WTC dust, would show high iron by definition!

And one final point, my good friend Carrol Sanders has reminded me that fly ash is frequently used as aggregate in lightweight concrete, so microspheres may have been present in the Twin Tower's concrete even before the fires of 9/11. Given that so much concrete was pulverized during the collapse of the towers, fly ash debris would be present in large amounts in the rubble pile.

Regards, Frank

----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Jones
To: greening
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: Query

Frank,

1. As you read my query, you'll notice that I said I thought some sort of
cooperation could be worked out -- with you. When I made reference to those "hell-bent" on discrediting discoveries I was not thinking about you , but rather two or three others, out of perhaps a couple hundred collaborators I have worked with. I learned to be very careful before forming
collaborations.

At the same time, it is true I would have to get to know you better before
establishing a full collaboration if such were desired.

2. "Al : Si : S : K : Ca : Ti : Fe = 8 : 10 : 2 : 1 : 4 : 1 : 5"

a. Where is the oxygen? Oxygen is a major component of almost all the
iron-aluminum spheres in the WTC dust I have studied -- often the PRINCIPAL component.

b. How do these "fly-ash" spheres form, given the high melting point of
iron (about 1530 C)? Do the incinerators use forced-air?

Thanks for your comments, which I will consider more tomorrow.

Steven
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

Frank,

1. The plot you provided is from burning COAL, not paper, plastics, wood
etc. Or are you saying there was coal in the WTC?

2. Where is the oxygen in the spectrum? The oxygen content is
significant, yet the spectrum appears to be skewed, cut off at low X-ray
energies... please explain -- how much Oxygen was present? Oxygen must be
present in a spectrum to provide a match with spectra I have shown -- not
the case in the one example you provided!

All of the iron-aluminum spheres I have found in the WTC dust show abundant
OXYGEN. Often O is the principal element in the spheres.

3. Can you get a Fe-O-K-Al-Si spectrum (with oxygen, O) and sphere
production from burning office materials? A few examples please -- if you
can do it.

4. This coal (your reference) was burned at high temperatures -- the
caption refers to "high stoker temperature." This is a significant
difference from the WTC fires -- or -- Are you claiming such high temps
occurred in the WTC fires? Hot enough to produce iron-rich spheres? (Iron
melts at 1538 C)


Steven J


Reply sent Dec 25th:

Steven,

So, Steven, may I review where we presently stand in this debate. You have carried out EDX analysis of samples of WTC dust and claim that two types of particles detected by you in the dust serve as evidence for the use of thermite/thermate incendiary devices during the destruction of the towers. These particles are microspheres and thin “chips” that are iron and aluminum-rich. Since thermite is essentially a mixture of iron oxide and aluminum, and spherical particles are evidence of melting, you believe that Fe and Al in microspheres can only be attributable to thermite residues. (Am I correct so far?)

Now here you have me at a disadvantage because you have not published or made any of your EDX spectra available to me. The best I have to work with are video clips of some talks you have given where you show some overheads of EDX spectra. If I am to really get to grips with your research I need to see copies of the spectra. And, by the way, I notice you immediately posted the spectrum I sent to you on 9//blogger, but did not post one of your spectra for comparison. Why not? My spectrum is from a book that is readily available in any good science library, but the same cannot be said about your spectra.

Anyway, to return to the debate, I have countered your argument that the WTC dust contains thermite residues with the suggestion that your particles are more likely to be fly ash from the combustion of materials in the Twin Towers. As evidence I have offered two examples of EDX spectra that I found in McCrone’s Particle Atlas. In one of my e-mails I gave you some approximate peak height ratios from these spectra as an indicator of the elemental ratios in the samples because the Particle Atlas does not give any quantitative analytical data.

I know full well that peak height ratios in EDX spectra are not directly proportional to the elemental concentrations in the sample. There are X-ray absorption and emission coefficients that need to be considered which are sample-matrix dependent. Nevertheless, peak height ratios do offer some approximate indication of the sample composition, especially for elements with similar atomic weights. Thus I have at least demonstrated that iron and aluminum-rich microspheres may be produced by the combustion of carbonaceous materials such as coal, wood, cardboard and paper.

Now I see you are quibbling about me sending you the spectrum of coal ash, asking me somewhat rhetorically: Was coal being burnt in the Twin Towers? Here, I would say you are missing my point which is that the mineral matter in natural carbon-based fuels forms an ash residue after the fuel is combusted that always contains Al, Si, K, Ca, and Fe – precisely the most abundant elements, (after the ubiquitous oxygen), in your WTC samples as revealed by their EDX spectra!

And here it is my turn to quibble with a statement you made in your Boston talk of Decembe15th, 2007. In this talk you compare the EDX spectra of red chips and microspheres found in WTC dust samples with the spectrum from commercial thermite and claim that all the spectra are essentially the same because they show peaks from O, Al, Fe, K, and Si. Now this is indeed quite strange because Si is definitely NOT an ingredient of commercial thermite. What is even stranger is that in your Boston talk you do not mention S as a component of the microspheres. Yet sulfur was so important to you just a few months ago – you know, back when you claimed that S was a key ingredient in the thermate variety of thermite used to demolish the Twin Towers. Now apparently, S has undergone a transmutation into Si! Perhaps this is why in your Boston talk you use the word “thermite” in place of your usual “thermate”. So what is it Steven: thermite or thermate?

But the presence of Si in your samples is indeed very significant because Si is always found in the ash produced by the combustion of wood, paper or municipal waste. So let’s focus on ash from these materials because wood, paper and municipal waste would be quite similar to the office combustibles feeding the WTC fires. Furthermore, municipal solid waste MSW combustor ash is well characterized. See for example:

http://www.tfhrc.gov/hnr20/recycle/waste/mswcal.htm

Thus we see that MSW ash typically contains up to 21 % Si, 8 % Ca, 8 % Fe, 1 % K and 5 % Al. Spherical particles up to 60 microns in diameter have also been reported in MSW incinerator ash formed when this type of waste material is burned at ~ 1000 deg C:

http://suwic.group.shef.ac.uk/posters/p-ash.pdf

There is also considerable data available on the properties of ash from the combustion of pulp and paper waste. See for example:

www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/s4/f2/dsk1/tape4/PQDD_0032/MQ64248.pdf

Here we find that Si, Al, Ca and Fe are the main elements found in ash produced by burning pulp and paper wastes. In addition the major portion of the fly ash thus derived is formed as molten droplets of fused inorganic material found in the as-received pulp and paper feed. It is reported that fusion of minerals such as quartz, feldspar and clay results in the formation of glassy spherical particles.

So, Steven, I think you need to eliminate all of these naturally occurring spherical particles that are routinely formed in office fires – particles like your WTC microspheres that are rich in Si, Al, Ca, Fe, and K - before you start suggesting that such particles could only come from thermite, (themate?) combustion residues.

Frank


----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Jones
To: greening
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 11:16 AM

Subject: High temps needed to form iron-rich spheres, meaning of ratios
"Only the very lowest melting substances form spheres." -- quoting directly from the figure caption of the spectrum you sent. I agree with THAT comment. The caption also mentions "metal foil" as part of the incinerated material, and I suspect melted aluminum would be present. NOT melted iron! Which leads again to the question I posed to you yesterday, based on the first spectrum you sent, which you seem to have thus far neglected:

4. This coal (your reference) was burned at high temperatures -- the caption refers to "high stoker temperature." This is a significant difference from the WTC fires -- or -- Are you claiming such high temps occurred in the WTC fires? Hot enough to produce iron-rich spheres? (Iron melts at 1538 C)

With regard to the lack of oxygen peaks in the older EDX machine you showed, I understand the difficulty these machines had -- and accept your explanation that an older EDX system was used for these spectra. The version I am using was installed very recently and is state-of-the-art. I will ask the lab director how good the oxygen percentages are in this new system.

Meanwhile, this new system does provide percentages of Fe, Al, Oxygen, etc.
So I have to ask -- what is the meaning of the ratios you provided, e.g.,

"Al : Si : S : K : Ca : Ti : Fe = 8 : 10 : 2 : 1 : 4 : 1 : 5"

When you answer this, we can make more direct comparisons with the percentages provided by the new EDS system. (Take your time as I'm traveling to be with family for Christmas. Merry Christmas! btw, and I wish you a speedy recovery as a friend tells me you had surgery recently.)

Thanks for the conversation.

Steven

PS -- some time ago, we crushed a concrete sample obtained from the WTC rubble, used magnetic concentration, and looked for iron-rich spheres. There were NONE found.

Frank at that time I did not know that magnetite was removed from fly ash used in concrete by magnetic drum separation.
Basically a big barrel filled with magnets that rolls over the fly ash, and picks out the magnetite so it can be sold.
Basically the same technique used by Dr. Jones. However there are certain uses of Fly ash that do not use magnetic drum separation.
Most of those use dry fly ash directly from the boilers.
They include addition of fly ash in slurry walls to increase the strength of those walls, and as drilling mud.
Filler and road base, soil stabilization, asphalt paving, and others, I also as you do believe the fires would have created micro spheres on their own from Chlorides and sulfates, similar to those in waste incinerators.
Dr. Jones has to show that the micro spheres are unique to thermite, or he has no evidence at all.
I am still working on a list of wire insulation plastics, Used in the towers, I would much rather research things that go boom when heated anyway.
That does seem to be what I am good at, well the next move is of course left up to Dr. Jones, he needs to show some evidence that he actually has any evidence.

[uk_dave]

Micro Spheres in world trade center dust solved

Damn, that's a shame. Just as I was thinking about becoming slightly interested in the possibility of caring about the subject.

oh well.

[~enigma~]

Looks to me that Steven Jones perpetually changing therm?te vowel theory is ganz kaput :)

[T.A.M.]

Well it certainly seems to be headed that way. I think the only thing he can really do now, IF he is an honest scientist, is to make his samples, his data, available publicly for verification or refutation.

TAM:)

[~enigma~]

Well it certainly seems to be headed that way. I think the only thing he can really do now, IF he is an honest scientist, is to make his samples, his data, available publicly for verification or refutation.

TAM:)
Do you also believe in fairy tales?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Well it certainly seems to be headed that way. I think the only thing he can really do now, IF he is an honest scientist, is to make his samples, his data, available publicly for verification or refutation.

TAM:)

OH the chips will now become the focus of the investigation I am sure of that, I just placed bets on them.

Anyone want to bet they are not the rare earth mineral
maghemite, combined with aluminumsilicates?

maghemite is a red rare earth mineral, formed from the oxidation of magnetite.
I have a hundred buck ridding on the chips he has found.

[DGM]

Well it certainly seems to be headed that way. I think the only thing he can really do now, IF he is an honest scientist, is to make his samples, his data, available publicly for verification or refutation.

TAM:)

An honest scientist would verify and confirm his findings BEFORE he presented them to the public.

The sad part of all this is Jones' information is already out there. Does anyone really think the "truth" movement will make any attempt to retract or correct any of these statements? It simply doesn't matter if the information is correct they will repeat it anyway.

The damage is already done.

[Max Photon]

Good God, finally they each moved a pawn.

Masterful. Simply masterful!


So, since everyone here is basically really stupid - as, in a stupor, not like stupid stupid - :rolleyes: - allow me to translate:

Dr. Jones is asking how the iron microspheres - evidence of molten iron - which in turn is evidence of temperatures of at least 1536 C - were formed in the WTC fires. (Remember, NIST's little fire video game only had fires that reached 1000 C.) Following this line of thinking, the presence of the [once molten] iron microspheres means one of the following:

The WTC fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C;
The debris field fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C (from forced-air situations, or chemical reactions, or "thermate residue", or some other energy source);
Iron microspheres can form at temperatures lower that 1536 C.

So, here are some questions from the exchange thus far:

Are iron microspheres iron-clad indicators that temperatures reached at least 1536 C, or can iron microspheres form at lower temperatures?
If 1536 C were reached in the towers or the debris field, what generated this high temperature?


* * *

Apollo - Well written, sincere, ... who wouldn't want to work with you?

e^n - I know you have respect for me, so you never need qualify your posts. Perhaps our discussion would better fit on my thermite-in box-columns thread.

[Max Photon]

An honest scientist would verify and confirm his findings BEFORE he presented them to the public.

The sad part of all this is Jones' information is already out there. Does anyone really think the "truth" movement will make any attempt to retract or correct any of these statements? It simply doesn't matter if the information is correct they will repeat it anyway.

The damage is already done.


Ahem...

The same can be said of the NIST Reports.

Tsk tsk tsk on the arson unvestigation.

Coulda shoulda woulda.

[DGM]

Ahem...

The same can be said of the NIST Reports.

Tsk tsk tsk on the arson unvestigation.

Coulda shoulda woulda.
Arson? You mean arson by aircraft?

[~enigma~]

Arson? You mean arson by aircraft?
Forget numerology, you said Arson by Aircraft - that is AA - proof of an inside job :D

[Jonnyclueless]

Good God, finally they each moved a pawn.

Masterful. Simply masterful!


So, since everyone here is basically really stupid - as, in a stupor, not like stupid stupid - :rolleyes: - allow me to translate:

Dr. Jones is asking how the iron microspheres - evidence of molten iron - which in turn is evidence of temperatures of at least 1536 C - were formed in the WTC fires. (Remember, NIST's little fire video game only had fires that reached 1000 C.) Following this line of thinking, the presence of the [once molten] iron microspheres means one of the following:

The WTC fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C;
The debris field fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C (from forced-air situations, or chemical reactions, or "thermate residue", or some other energy source);
Iron microspheres can form at temperatures lower that 1536 C.

So, here are some questions from the exchange thus far:

Are iron microspheres iron-clad indicators that temperatures reached at least 1536 C, or can iron microspheres form at lower temperatures?
If 1536 C were reached in the towers or the debris field, what generated this high temperature?


* * *

Apollo - Well written, sincere, ... who wouldn't want to work with you?

e^n - I know you have respect for me, so you never need qualify your posts. Perhaps our discussion would better fit on my thermite-in box-columns thread.

And don't forget to mention that the WTC was made of Coal!

[T.A.M.]

Good God, finally they each moved a pawn.

Masterful. Simply masterful!


So, since everyone here is basically really stupid - as, in a stupor, not like stupid stupid - :rolleyes: - allow me to translate:

Dr. Jones is asking how the iron microspheres - evidence of molten iron - which in turn is evidence of temperatures of at least 1536 C - were formed in the WTC fires. (Remember, NIST's little fire video game only had fires that reached 1000 C.) Following this line of thinking, the presence of the [once molten] iron microspheres means one of the following:

The WTC fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C;
The debris field fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C (from forced-air situations, or chemical reactions, or "thermate residue", or some other energy source);
Iron microspheres can form at temperatures lower that 1536 C.

So, here are some questions from the exchange thus far:

Are iron microspheres iron-clad indicators that temperatures reached at least 1536 C, or can iron microspheres form at lower temperatures?
If 1536 C were reached in the towers or the debris field, what generated this high temperature?


* * *

Apollo - Well written, sincere, ... who wouldn't want to work with you?

e^n - I know you have respect for me, so you never need qualify your posts. Perhaps our discussion would better fit on my thermite-in box-columns thread.

I agree, the important question is (A) does a temperature of 1536C have to be reached in ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, to produce iron microspheres?

if not,
(B) what circumstances, benign or not, could produce said spherules at a lower temperature, and then (C) did these circumstances likely exist in the WTC prior to, during, or after the collapse?

if so,
(D) how was the temperature of 1536C reached? Could it have been through the fires that existed within the WTC prior to collapse, or the fires that persisted after the collapse underneath the rubble?

TAM:)

[beachnut]

I'm quoting you here Max but my reply is actually addressed to everyone.

We really shouldn't be so harsh with Max, he has an interesting personality and articulates his thoughts in an odd manner but he has yet to lie, fake evidence, ignore evidence or be intellectually dishonest in any manner I have seen.

Indeed he has 'admitted' (and then retracted) that his reason for constructing MAX-MIHOP is that he is taking all of the evidence with a presupposition of controlled demolition.

Max
While this may not be accurate of how you feel, it is consistent with the evidence you provide. You have essentially invented 'laser ignited thermite shock tube' with only a single piece of dubious evidence and trumpeted it as a complete theory. I have nothing against you and frankly nothing against your theory, it is even somewhat plausible but as I have said before you are lacking in one critical component.

If the WTC towers were strong enough that they required a catalyst to initiate collapse then evidence is required of this. You say that evidence could have been found by looking inside perimeter column bolt access holes, now assuming you have checked out all of NCSTAR 1-3 and still been left without evidence there is logically nowhere left to look for this specific piece of evidence. Given this, you must now begin the search for alternate evidence which can exist.

I am sure you are aware of the problems with inferring the 'best explanation' in any scenario and that you must have logical evidence based reasons for choosing a specific explanation. What you are asking us to do however is accept your theory based on the same inference. You have not presented any evidence of your theory which is not easily attributed to another source. If however you could provide evidence which either conflicts with another source or is entirely separate then we could logically choose your theory.

You must admit that even if you are right, without any solid evidence we cannot logically accept your theory? I hope you don't find this insulting because while I may have been a little aggressive and harsh to you you seem to be entirely honest and that is something I respect.
Sure it is funny/ironic as he switches sides when he thinks things have changed. Making up stuff with no facts, and blaming others for 9/11. Now without research or understanding he will mess up the spheres one way or another with his lack of paying attention and zero research on the real subject (oops he sounds like me, save the ...)

His obtuse approach and his attitude "9/11 is a Joke", revolt me and make see he is disrespectful and fact less person on 9/11. His MILDEC is most revolting. He supports a perverted fantasy he obtusely presents day after day. This would be neat in a sci-fi board on non real events. But the implication of his are vile and revolting as he clearly (though how can your know after all the cute crap) implicates WTC workers, the military, and unknown entities of murder on 9/11. Not the terrorists but fellow humans did 9/11 if you follow Max's madness on 9/11. Someone blaming you for 9/11. His ideas are on the entirely stupid side of 9/11 truth; we should encourage his expert thermite, 9/11 is a joke, MILDEC, posts to proliferate so he with his superior intellect can feel good in his own superior mind and say "Sure, the mosquitoes are kind of thick at times, but only at dusk and dawn". He may not see you as an insect, but I think he places me in the Order of Diptera.

[Apollo20]

I do not believe that a temperature of 1536 deg C (or higher!) is necessary to form iron-rich microspheres. These type of particles are formed in incinerators that never get above 1200 deg C. In fact most of the chemistry involved in forming microspheres takes place in the temperature range 600 - 1000 deg C, well within the range of temperatures expected for the WTC fires. Think about it, if a waste incinerator gets above 1536 deg C the incinerator walls, which are usually made of carbon steel or low alloy steels, will melt!

[leftysergeant]

Yes they did, however they did not say which concrete, magnetic magnetite separation has been going on since the 1960s with the bi product sold as sand blasting abrasive and for washing cleaning coal.


Were the towers ever cleaned using sand blasting or similar techniques either during construction or after completion?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I do not believe that a temperature of 1536 deg C (or higher!) is necessary to form iron-rich microspheres. These type of particles are formed in incinerators that never get above 1200 deg C. In fact most of the chemistry involved in forming microspheres takes place in the temperature range 600 - 1000 deg C, well within the range of temperatures expected for the WTC fires. Think about it, if a waste incinerator gets above 1536 deg C the incinerator walls, which are usually made of carbon steel or low alloy steels, will melt!

That is why his next move will be maghemite, combined with aluminum-silicates, in theory, It should form at higher temperature and be red and gray bilateral, eggshell like.

All that is necessary to form the spheres is the oxidation of iron in combination with a sulfide or chloride.
I have made such particles in my hand wearing only a rubber glove, at room temperature.
Fe304. From Ferric Chloride.
IN boilers it is the degradation of Pyrite-Iron Pyrite -iron sulfate, simular to fools gold that does it, as Apollo stated at 600c.

What Dr. Jones fails to understand is that the oxidation of the Iron, http://www.thermolance.com/Thermolance_Oxygen_Lance/thermolance_oxygen_lance.htm
produces the necessary energy-heat to form the sphere from the irons own oxidation. Sulfur or chrlorides just lowers the oxidation point by weakening the Iron to Iron bonding. Since sulfide and chlorides are found in the buildings in organics the reaction occurs.

The down side to this is the same chemical reactions ignite the floor pans along the electrical conduits if conditions are right creating increased air flow though the floor slabs fire place grate effect, increasing the temperature around the Critically loaded columns.

I can not say at this time if the eletrical conduits live decking ignited, however if it did because the conduits were not insulated that was a major design flaw.
I would have to do more experiment, and have more information, before I can come to a conclusion on that.
However as I am only interested in going where the
science points.

I have done the experiment on the spheres now it is just time to sit back and enjoy the parade, so to speak.

[Mr. Skinny]

Crazy Chainsaw[/b] http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3276762#post3276762) ]
Yes they did, however they did not say which concrete, magnetic magnetite separation has been going on since the 1960s with the bi product sold as sand blasting abrasive and for washing cleaning coal.

Were the towers ever cleaned using sand blasting or similar techniques either during construction or after completion?
Just for clarity, everyone should be careful with their terms. Perhaps "abrasive blasting media" is a better term than "sand blasting abrasive" and "abrasive blasting" better than "sand blasting" (unless of course, you are refering to the use of sand (silica) as the abrasive blasting media).

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Were the towers ever cleaned using sand blasting or similar techniques either during construction or after completion?

Yes they were after the 1993 bombing, but only a few sections, also a parts cleaner and sand blaster I believe was part of the work shop where the 50 ton press was.
They would be standard equipment.

You also have to remember that the substance thought to be sand in the photos of the world trade center might be bottom ash and as such it would contain trillions of micro spheres.
Disturbance by heavy equipment would cause them to the launched into the air.

[JamesB]

I have always wondered, as a completely layman on this issue, but what would be the metalurgical effect of a 500 MPH plane, composed largely of aluminum striking an aluminum and steel building at 500 MPH? Anyone who has ever tried to start a camp fire with flint and steel can observe the intense heat giving off by friction (at much lower energy levels). Could this account for any of the observed phenomena?

[Mince]

Good God, finally they each moved a pawn.

Masterful. Simply masterful!


Wrong! My first move was Nf6! (which you'll no doubt recognize as the classic Indian defense).


So, since everyone here is basically really stupid - as, in a stupor, not like stupid stupid - :rolleyes: - allow me to translate:


Not a writer, I see. That's ok, writing isn't for everyone! Many successful people are very clumsy with words.

Dr. Jones is asking how the iron microspheres - evidence of molten iron - which in turn is evidence of temperatures of at least 1536 C - were formed in the WTC fires. (Remember, NIST's little fire video game only had fires that reached 1000 C.) Following this line of thinking, the presence of the [once molten] iron microspheres means one of the following:

The WTC fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C;
The debris field fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C (from forced-air situations, or chemical reactions, or "thermate residue", or some other energy source);
Iron microspheres can form at temperatures lower that 1536 C.So, here are some questions from the exchange thus far:

Are iron microspheres iron-clad indicators that temperatures reached at least 1536 C, or can iron microspheres form at lower temperatures?
If 1536 C were reached in the towers or the debris field, what generated this high temperature?


Jones' delivery boy? Well, I'm looking more for a raw scientific analysis like Crazy Chainsaw's post 78 or Apollo20's post 57 (which, seemingly, you've already read). After reading their analyses in this thread, do you really think they need an abridged, dumbed-down (pardon the crude expression---but it fits!) synopsis of Jones' work? Please, indulge us with your scientific analysis regarding micro-particles. I'm sure it would be quite edifying.


Apollo - Well written, sincere, ... who wouldn't want to work with you?

Work for him? Because he made a decent message board post? Where's that "confused" smiley? Oh wait! I don't use smilies. Just know I'm perplexed.

[Mince]

Ahem...

The same can be said of the NIST Reports.

Tsk tsk tsk on the arson unvestigation.

Coulda shoulda woulda.


Hmmmm. The expression "Bad behavior does not allow or excuse other bad behavior" comes to mind. Should I use it? Should I...? Yeah, what the heck.


Bad behavior does not allow or excuse other bad behavior.*



Analogous:

DGM said: Ted Bundy is a bad man and should be punished.

You said (essentially): But David Berkowitz was also a bad man before him, so it's ok.






*Please note I am not testifying to the authenticity of either body (NIST or Stephen Jones). I'm certainly not qualified.


P.S. You misspelled "investigation".


Regarding your sig: "Thermite was used - not to cut or melt WTC steel - but to heat-weaken splices and other connections.
Gradual, deliberate heat-weakening induced global instability in, and the collapse of the WTC towers. Thermite initiated and cloaked the controlled-demolitions, in plain view, with the whole world watching."

Certainly you have empirical proof of this thesis. You wouldn't proffer it if you didn't have empirical proof, right? I mean, you don't merely believe it just because "it's possible", or "could happen" or "makes sense", do you? I know, I know. You're going to tell me to go to your website. I have and I'm still looking for empirical proof. Let's have it!

[BenBurch]

I have always wondered, as a completely layman on this issue, but what would be the metalurgical effect of a 500 MPH plane, composed largely of aluminum striking an aluminum and steel building at 500 MPH? Anyone who has ever tried to start a camp fire with flint and steel can observe the intense heat giving off by friction (at much lower energy levels). Could this account for any of the observed phenomena?

Your instincts are good.

There would have been an amazing variety of metal and metal oxide spall from this event.

[BenBurch]

...

The micro spheres are one of the more valuable parts of the fly ash, and have been separated and sold for years before the fly ash goes into concrete.

Brilliant. Solves the problem completely. Thank you.

[Alferd_Packer]

Somewhere out there is a video of a college lecture where the professor bangs two balls together, one aluminum, the other steel with a light coating of rust. an impressive spark is emitted.

[Max Photon]

I do not believe that a temperature of 1536 deg C (or higher!) is necessary to form iron-rich microspheres. These type of particles are formed in incinerators that never get above 1200 deg C. In fact most of the chemistry involved in forming microspheres takes place in the temperature range 600 - 1000 deg C, well within the range of temperatures expected for the WTC fires. Think about it, if a waste incinerator gets above 1536 deg C the incinerator walls, which are usually made of carbon steel or low alloy steels, will melt!


By what mechanism does one get (once-molten) iron microspheres from a chilly 600-1000 C incinerator?

This question is important because it appears (to me anyway) Jones is assuming iron microspheres are irrefutable evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C.

* * *

Mince, I spelled arson unvestigation correctly, thank you.

[T.A.M.]

So what I am gathering, even from this limited discussion, is that iron microspheres can form at a number of temperatures, depending on the environment (chemical). A chemist has now provided his opinion that it takes much less than the 1536C Jones (I assume) suggests is needed, and in particular points to incinerators as a prime example.

Well I agree everyone, it is clearly Jone's next move. In my opinion, he should either admit his spherules prove nothing and drop it, or should provide his data for others to verify or refute...EOS.

TAM:)

[beachnut]

By what mechanism does one get (once-molten) iron microspheres from a chilly 600-1000 C incinerator?

This question is important because it appears (to me anyway) Jones is assuming iron microspheres are irrefutable evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C.

* * *

Mince, I spelled arson unvestigation correctly, thank you.
The spheres are present in items around us! They are released when things are smashed up. Like when the WTC towers fell! So you need not temperature on 9/11 to form the spheres, they were already there!

[T.A.M.]

By what mechanism does one get (once-molten) iron microspheres from a chilly 600-1000 C incinerator?


Excellent question, which I hope Dr. Greening or CC can answer.

TAM:)

[MIKILLINI]

The Purina-feed factory-farmed trout are starting to circle...

Umm..Max? Is this yours?..:

Thanks Mikillini. I would add:

Thermite fuse ignited by jet impact also works beautifully with LIHOP. A net could have covered the towers, so that wherever the jets hit, the fuses could be ignited to induce thermite-based heat-weakening only on impact floors. So, despite what Mikillini says, my collapse initiation mechanisms do not depend on MIHOP, and do not depend on remote controlled jets.

Second, I am not trying to convince people of anything. People convince themselves. I'm just trying to make people think.

Third, even if MAX-MIHOP is incorrect, there is tremendous value in pushing different hypotheses are far as they can go. Even models that ultimately fail often reveal the strengths and weaken of superior models. More important, the clash of models can trigger major revelations.

Fourth, "inside job" is a possible solution to the problem. Therefore, it is important to prove up the best possible inside job scenario. That is what MAX-MIHOP tries to do.

Are you ruling out fly ash already Max? Or do you just believe CC's experiments have no credible merit to make people think, including yourself?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Somewhere out there is a video of a college lecture where the professor bangs two balls together, one aluminum, the other steel with a light coating of rust. an impressive spark is emitted.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/demonstrationsexperiments/ss/liquidmagnet_3.htm

[Jonnyclueless]

This question is important because it appears (to me anyway) Jones is assuming iron microspheres are irrefutable evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C.
.

Jones assuming? Never! It's not like him to make incorrect assertions...

[pomeroo]

Good God, finally they each moved a pawn.

Masterful. Simply masterful!


So, since everyone here is basically really stupid - as, in a stupor, not like stupid stupid - :rolleyes: - allow me to translate:

Dr. Jones is asking how the iron microspheres - evidence of molten iron - which in turn is evidence of temperatures of at least 1536 C - were formed in the WTC fires. (Remember, NIST's little fire video game only had fires that reached 1000 C.) Following this line of thinking, the presence of the [once molten] iron microspheres means one of the following:

The WTC fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C;
The debris field fires reached temperatures at least as high as 1536 C (from forced-air situations, or chemical reactions, or "thermate residue", or some other energy source);
Iron microspheres can form at temperatures lower that 1536 C.So, here are some questions from the exchange thus far:

Are iron microspheres iron-clad indicators that temperatures reached at least 1536 C, or can iron microspheres form at lower temperatures?
If 1536 C were reached in the towers or the debris field, what generated this high temperature?
* * *

Apollo - Well written, sincere, ... who wouldn't want to work with you?

e^n - I know you have respect for me, so you never need qualify your posts. Perhaps our discussion would better fit on my thermite-in box-columns thread.



Max, why do you presume the necessity of translating for an audience consisting of many people who know far more than you do?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

By what mechanism does one get (once-molten) iron microspheres from a chilly 600-1000 C incinerator?

This question is important because it appears (to me anyway) Jones is assuming iron microspheres are irrefutable evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C.

* * *

Mince, I spelled arson unvestigation correctly, thank you.

It is not iron the Micro spheres are magnetite, Iron oxide Fe 304

http://chainsawsanders.com/Ironbubble2.JPG

page ten.

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/10180692-bseoOC/10180692.PDF

Magnehemite is a rare earth mineral, but found in great abundance on mars.
It makes mars red, Dr. Jones simply does not understand simple Chemistry.

[Mince]

Mince, I spelled arson unvestigation correctly, thank you.


But you (apparently) missed my bit of sarcasm!

You're welcome.

[Max Photon]

Are you ruling out fly ash already Max?




Oh no, not at all!

I was asking about the formation temperature of iron microspheres from the perspective that (I believe) Jones is coming from (that the spherules were formed either in the towers or in the debris, and not that they might have been formed at some other time/space/process).

I think Beachhut got the same wrong impression. Sorry about that.

But I think that Jones believes - and I may be incorrect - that the microspheres (assuming they were formed on 911) PROVE temperatures of at least 1536 C.

I think TAM got where I was coming from.

[Comsat Angel]

Not the fuel of the vehicles it is another fuel though, however the machine that burns it is way bigger than a house, and never moves just creates steam and spins.

The US Senate?

<ouch!>

[Apollo20]

The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O. Iron is transported as a volatile di or tri-chloride. FeCl2 has a m.p. of 677 deg C and allows "active" corrosion to occur with iron wastage rates as high as 100 g/m^2 per hour. The iron chloride is relatively unstable and decomposes but the iron does not wind up as a pure iron microsphere. As the very least it will be oxide (probably Fe3O4) coated and alloyed with other metals such as Al. Fly ash usually contains mullite, Al6Si2O13. This readily combines with iron oxide at ~ 1000 deg C to form an iron-rich aluminosilicate microsphere on cooling. Other elements such as K and Ca are also readily incorporated into these melts. This is the chemistry of CLAY minerals! As long as Jones' microspheres contain Si and/or K and Ca, they are NOT derived from thermite.

[MIKILLINI]

Apollo..have you a concise compilation with the Plastimet fire chemistry data to compare with EPA and New York Board Of Health chemistry analysis of Ground Zero that would shed some light toward this?

[MIKILLINI]

Just to add to My post above for clarification, would the chlorination species in the Plastimet fire compared to WTC rubble pile chlorinated species make for good comparison to determine differences in each respective buildings? Such as materials used in each buildings construction and the contents within each building.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

OK Frank now I have to disagree with you,;) sorry, I think that since there was very little clay in the fire at the twin towers, that aluminum silicate in the fly ash of the concrete might have played the role of clays, along with the chlorides and sulfates, to form the spheres similar to what happens in a waste incinerator.
You have chlorides and sulfates all over the buildings, Aluminum Chlorides and Ferric Chlorides in the paper, computers tons of plastics. Some plastics even use fly ash filler, UPS batteries, and drywall.
However this does lead us to the nasty prospect that sulfidication, and Chlorination of steel might have occurred in the fires to a limited existent.

From the link I posted before,
Discussion: Bulk chemical and SEM microanalyses indicate that the cyclone deposits are
primarily an iron-aluminosilicate material. The bulk of the deposit is about 30 wt% SiO 2, 18 wt%
AI20 3, and 30 to 33 wt% Fe20 3. Titanium is also present between 3 and 4 weight percent.
The most likely cause of tbrmation of the deposits is the interaction of an iron compound with
aluminosilicates. The iron probably originated as pyrite or iron sulfides in the teed. The
aluminosilicates were probably present as clays in the teed. Iron in the form of FeS 2 is a strong
fluxing agent in a neutral or mildly reducing atmosphere. In oxidizing zones, FeS 2 will t),pically
produce SO 2 and form ferric oxide iFe203) at temperatures near 520°C. In reducing zones,
pyrite (FeS 2) forms a partial melt of ferrous sulfide (FeS) beginning at about 280°C and
continuing to about 600°C. Iron oxides may also be reduced to the ferrous state at 540 °C. At
lower temperatures, FeS may react with aluminosilicates to form a relatively low-melting ferrous
metasilicate or form a ferrous orthosilicate. The low melting point of these materials may also
enhance formation of molten spheres of ash particles.
Even though the iron in the deposit is now in the Fe+3 state, there is evidence that at the time
of deposit formation it was in the Fe+2 state. The atomic structure of the bulk of the deposit is
that of the spinel mineral maghemite ('/-Fe203). In nature, this is a rare mineral which forms by
the oxidation of the spinel mineral magnetite (Fe304, or Fe203+FeO). Formation of the spinel
structure requires the presence of iron in the +2 state. The iron was probably oxidized to the +3
state after deposit formation, resulting in the transformation to the maghemite structure. The
original presence of iron in the +2 state is also supported by the relatively high titanium content of
the deposit. The relatively high titanium content of the deposit suggests that it may have
originally been magnetite (formed at a low oxygen fugacity), but was later oxidized to maghemite
under higher oxygen fugacities.

Now all I have to figure out is the other stuff that was in the air data and what the results of the experiments into the other micro spheres mean. Primarily the ones that include Zinc, as a major component.
Nice of Dr. Jones to finally admit that the Micro Spheres were to a large degree Oxygen. That indicates magnetite as I thought for a long time.
If Dr, Jones has found maghemite then the Nist fire tests were wrong, it indicates a high oxygen fire event that would only happen if the oxygen potentials are higher than what Nist stated. If that is true then the temperature of the fire was higher than indicated by Nist, that means that more fuels were consumed and that the rubble pile also had less carbon fuels for the duration of the burn in the rubble pile.
I just hope we have not traded one can of worms for another can of worms.
Well the next move is up to Dr. Jones, doubt it will be much of a surprise though, he will probably play up the Chips as proof of thermite only card he has left only move he can make.

The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O. Iron is transported as a volatile di or tri-chloride. FeCl2 has a m.p. of 677 deg C and allows "active" corrosion to occur with iron wastage rates as high as 100 g/m^2 per hour. The iron chloride is relatively unstable and decomposes but the iron does not wind up as a pure iron microsphere. As the very least it will be oxide (probably Fe3O4) coated and alloyed with other metals such as Al. Fly ash usually contains mullite, Al6Si2O13. This readily combines with iron oxide at ~ 1000 deg C to form an iron-rich aluminosilicate microsphere on cooling. Other elements such as K and Ca are also readily incorporated into these melts. This is the chemistry of CLAY minerals! As long as Jones' microspheres contain Si and/or K and Ca, they are NOT derived from thermite.

[LashL]

Apollo..have you a concise compilation with the Plastimet fire chemistry data to compare with EPA and New York Board Of Health chemistry analysis of Ground Zero that would shed some light toward this?


I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, Mikillini, but it might be useful.

http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/envision/techdocs/3598e.pdf

[MIKILLINI]

Thanks for the link, LashL. I'll check it out.

[einsteen]

The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O... etc

But this complexity can be avoided if they were already there. Apollo, could you summarize your current hypothesis, it seems you have a different look than before.

[BenBurch]

Microspheres can also form from in hot stack gasses, or so I recall from having looked at scrubbers once long ago.

[leftysergeant]

OK Frank now I have to disagree with you,;) sorry, I think that since there was very little clay in the fire at the twin towers, that aluminum silicate in the fly ash of the concrete might have played the role of clays, along with the chlorides and sulfates, to form the spheres similar to what happens in a waste incinerator.
You have chlorides and sulfates all over the buildings, Aluminum Chlorides and Ferric Chlorides in the paper, computers tons of plastics. Some plastics even use fly ash filler, UPS batteries, and drywall.

There is also kaolin in carbonless copying paper and high-gloss paper. An aluminum-rich clay.

[ArmillarySphere]

Marry Christmas.
Do I have to? :(
;)
I would, if it was Christmas Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denise_Richards).
Points in favour:
1) Rowr. :D
2) Divorced twoofer Charlie Sheen
3) Is a nuclear physicist ... no, right, that was the movie. Darn.

[T.A.M.]

Nutshell - lots of potential causes of said microspheres from the fires/collapses themselves.

I am gonna use Occam on this one, until Jones releases his data/samples for independent peer review/verification.

TAM:)

[BenBurch]

...
until Jones releases his data/samples for independent peer review/verification.
...

"Never admit to the Marks that you were wrong." - Old grifter saying.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

There is also kaolin in carbonless copying paper and high-gloss paper. An aluminum-rich clay.

Does it really matter what I am finding out, is that fly ash would have naturally been in use at the site after 9/11/2001.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/pavement/recycling/fach02.cfm
It could have been incorperated into many of the products used in the buildings, that were not tested by Dr. Jones.
The machine shop probibly had a blast cabinet and small parts tumbler that would have used magnetite.

Also guess who was a leader in the usage of non hydrated fly ash in Asphalt products including Asphalt roofing.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE6D6103EF934A35751C1A96F9482 60

[Max Photon]

The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O. Iron is transported as a volatile di or tri-chloride. FeCl2 has a m.p. of 677 deg C and allows "active" corrosion to occur with iron wastage rates as high as 100 g/m^2 per hour. The iron chloride is relatively unstable and decomposes but the iron does not wind up as a pure iron microsphere. As the very least it will be oxide (probably Fe3O4) coated and alloyed with other metals such as Al. Fly ash usually contains mullite, Al6Si2O13. This readily combines with iron oxide at ~ 1000 deg C to form an iron-rich aluminosilicate microsphere on cooling. Other elements such as K and Ca are also readily incorporated into these melts. This is the chemistry of CLAY minerals! As long as Jones' microspheres contain Si and/or K and Ca, they are NOT derived from thermite.


It is interesting to note that Dr. Jones' conjecture of thermAte is an artifact of his assumption that IF thermite were used, THEN it was used to cut (i.e. melt) steel.

The assumption of THERMITE=CUTTING led him to look for ways to make the horrendously inefficient process of thermite cutting more efficient. The adding of sulfur to produce thermAte was the intellectual path take. (Plus it seemed to fit with claims of sulfidation of steel.)

It turns out that S would play another role. Jerry Lobdill produced an Fe S phase diagram, and it shows a eutectic point at about 32%S, with a melting temperature below 1000C.

Now Jones claimed the molten metal pouring out of WTC2 was not aluminum, but iron.

But how can yellow iron flow? It would be frozen!

His answer was sulfur.

Do you see the picture? Thermate was being used to cut steel at WTC2's NE corner (remember this is the picture); thermate was chosen because the S helps the cutting process; the molten iron-sulfur product could flow - even at yellow to orange - because the S creates a eutectic with a melting temperature of just below 1000C.

By the way, Jones' physical experiments with thermate (with S, but not exactly at 32%) claim that the molten product flowed at yellow, and even at orange, adding support to Lobdill's Fe S phase diagram.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

It is interesting to note that Dr. Jones' conjecture of thermAte is an artifact of his assumption that IF thermite were used, THEN it was used to cut (i.e. melt) steel.

The assumption of THERMITE=CUTTING led him to look for ways to make the horrendously inefficient process of thermite cutting more efficient. The adding of sulfur to produce thermAte was the intellectual path take. (Plus it seemed to fit with claims of sulfidation of steel.)

It turns out that S would play another role. Jerry Lobdill produced an Fe S phase diagram, and it shows a eutectic point at about 32%S, with a melting temperature below 1000C.

Now Jones claimed the molten metal pouring out of WTC2 was not aluminum, but iron.

But how can yellow iron flow? It would be frozen!

His answer was sulfur.

Do you see the picture? Thermate was being used to cut steel at WTC2's NE corner (remember this is the picture); thermate was chosen because the S helps the cutting process; the molten iron-sulfur product could flow - even at yellow to orange - because the S creates a eutectic with a melting temperature of just below 1000C.

By the way, Jones' physical experiments with thermate (with S, but not exactly at 32%) claim that the molten product flowed at yellow, and even at orange, adding support to Lobdill's Fe S phase diagram.

That is why the spheres are to be expected, they are a product of low melt ferric compounds not of molten steel.
If they were a produce of molten steel they would be solid iron with out gassed carbon NOT Fe 304.
That is what I thought I was dealing with, such a particle could only occur at 1356c, at the least though oxidation of larger peaces producing out gassing of carbons.
The Critical temperature is the ignition point of steel in oxygen.
NOT the melting point.

Low melt Ferris are also why the floor pans might ignite along the electrical conduits.

[BenBurch]

Max, there was an immense battery room in that corner at that floor that was full of charged batteries containing tons of sulfuric acid and lead acetate.

Try shorting a 12v, 2800 AH battery some time with a crowbar and see how much heat you get. (Don't do this from up close.)

[Apollo20]

Steven,

I guess you didn't spend too much time reading my last e-mail! You know the part where I said:

"Thus we see that MSW ash typically contains up to 21 % Si, 8 % Ca, 8 % Fe, 1 % K and 5 % Al. Spherical particles up to 60 microns in diameter have also been reported in MSW incinerator ash formed when this type of waste material is burned at ~ 1000 deg C".

I also provided a link to a site that includes micrographs of microspheres in MSW ash. Did you check the link out? I guess not!

And as for coal fired boilers, a little research will show you that iron-rich microspheres are a well documented component of coal fly ash even though pulverized coal combustion temperatures are less than 1400 deg C. So you must accept that iron-rich microspheres do not need temperatures of 1538 deg C or higher to form in a coal/wood/paper combustion environment. If you cannot accept this fact there is no point in continuing this "debate"

The formation of iron-rich microspheres below the m.p. of pure iron at ~ 1537 deg C is a complex process but is possible, indeed probable, in an environment containing HCl/Cl2 and SO2/SO3 in the presence of O2 and H2O. The WTC fires produced lots of HCl from the combustion of PVC and oxides of sulfur were present from sources such as lead acid batteries, residual fuel oil and gypsum. In such a chemical soup, iron is transported as volatile di or tri-chlorides. FeCl2 has a m.p. of 677 deg C and allows "active" corrosion to occur with iron wastage rates as high as 100 g/m^2 per hour. The iron chloride is relatively unstable and eventually decomposes but the iron does not wind up as a pure iron microsphere. At the very least it will be oxide coated, (probably with Fe3O4), and alloyed with other metals such as Al. Fly ash usually contains mullite, Al6Si2O13. Pure mullite has a high m.p., ~ 1828 deg C, but small additions of K2O and/or CaO lower the m.p to below 1200 deg C. These complex Al/Si/K/Ca/O phases readily combine with iron oxide at ~ 1000 deg C to form iron-rich calcium/potassium aluminosilicate microspheres on cooling. Steven, as long as your microspheres contain Si and/or K and Ca, they are NOT derived from thermite.

And on the topic of Si in commercial thermite, I was always under the impression that thermite is a mixture of finely divided iron oxide and aluminum with small amounts of accelerants/oxidizers based on K, Mn Sr or Ba compounds. You, on the other hand, claim this is NOT the case simply because you detected Si in your thermite combustion residues. Did you carry out your thermite tests in a sand pit? I ask this question not to be facetious; I simply wonder why anyone would add a silicon compound to thermite! Anyway, please provide a reference for your assertion that thermite usually contains Si - a manufacturer's analysis sheet would be helpful in this regard.....

One final comment:

May I recommend that you read two very interesting articles by Ken Kosanke et al.:

"Characterization of Pyrotechnic Reaction Residue Particles by SEM / EDS" in J. Forensic Sci. 48(3), 531 (2003)

"Pyrotechnic Reaction Residue Particle Analysis" in J. Forensic Sci. 51(2), 296 (2006).

These articles discuss the problem of identifying pyrotechnic reaction particles in the presence of soil or "dirt". On page 535 of the first article we read:

"Although a little too simplistic to make it a general rule, most common geologic particles will have silicon and calcium as the most prevalent X-ray peaks, whereas pyrotechnic material will generally have little, if any, of these elements present."

Then on page 299 of the second article we see two EDS spectra labelled as "Dirt" and "Dirt plus pyrotechnic reaction residues". The spectra are essentially identical with peaks, (in order of intensity), identified as: Si, Al, Fe, Ca, K, S.

We can debate this in the New Year, if you wish, but until you can show me that iron-rich microspheres COULD NOT be present in the WTC dust without "added" thermite, I think we won't have much to talk about!

Regards,

Frank


----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Jones
To: greening
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:55 PM
Subject: Re: High temps needed to form iron-rich spheres, meaning of ratios

Frank,

Your latest response ignores (again) my questions in (4.) below.

Further, you state: "Now this is indeed quite strange because Si is definitely NOT an ingredient of commercial thermite."

This statement is demonstrably incorrect, and indeed I demonstrated that Si is in fact a component of the sample of commercial thermite I tested -- both in the unreacted thermite sample (in with iron oxide chips) and in the spheres which formed from reacting the commercial thermite. This observation I made was and is important to the discussion. Experiments trump authoritative statements from you or anyone else.

I am leaning to suggest we take this discussion to a forum, such as PhysOrg, beginning January 2 (as I leave town tomorrow once more, and then will be with family for New Years' eve and day). This would also permit further posting of PPT slides, or EDS plots and SEM images, as I did some time ago on a forum of STJ911.org.

Let's think about this... Jan. 3 would be as soon as I could reasonably begin such a public discussion.

Steve

PS -- Carroll -- you will have to flesh out your question about PAC's and ferric chlorides, put into context of the WTC destruction, so I can fathom what you are asking when you say "What about PAC's..." etc.

Steven J

On Dec 24, 2007 9:16 AM, Steven Jones wrote:

"Only the very lowest melting substances form spheres." -- quoting directly from the figure caption of the spectrum you sent. I agree with THAT comment. The caption also mentions "metal foil" as part of the incinerated material, and I suspect melted aluminum would be present. NOT melted iron! Which leads again to the question I posed to you yesterday, based on the first spectrum you sent, which you seem to have thus far neglected:

4. This coal (your reference) was burned at high temperatures -- the caption refers to "high stoker temperature." This is a significant difference from the WTC fires -- or -- Are you claiming such high temps occurred in the WTC fires? Hot enough to produce iron-rich spheres? (Iron melts at 1538 C)

With regard to the lack of oxygen peaks in the older EDX machine you showed, I understand the difficulty these machines had -- and accept your explanation that an older EDX system was used for these spectra. The version I am using was installed very recently and is state-of-the-art. I will ask the lab director how good the oxygen percentages are in this new system.

Meanwhile, this new system does provide percentages of Fe, Al, Oxygen, etc.
So I have to ask -- what is the meaning of the ratios you provided, e.g.,

"Al : Si : S : K : Ca : Ti : Fe = 8 : 10 : 2 : 1 : 4 : 1 : 5"

When you answer this, we can make more direct comparisons with the percentages provided by the new EDS system. (Take your time as I'm traveling to be with family for Christmas. Merry Christmas! btw, and I wish you a speedy recovery as a friend tells me you had surgery recently.)

Thanks for the conversation.

Steven

PS -- some time ago, we crushed a concrete sample obtained from the WTC rubble, used magnetic concentration, and looked for iron-rich spheres. There were NONE found.

On Dec 24, 2007 7:39 AM, greening wrote:

Here is the incinerator ash spectrum. You will note that the caption reads "partly burned paper, wood, plastic, etc...

Frank

[Max Photon]

Max, there was an immense battery room in that corner at that floor that was full of charged batteries containing tons of sulfuric acid and lead acetate.

Try shorting a 12v, 2800 AH battery some time with a crowbar and see how much heat you get. (Don't do this from up close.)


Oops. Too late. :flamed:


Ben, while we are on this point, what is the most definitive evidence of the UPS batteries in WTC2 NE?

(Mind you, I'm not doubting anything or trying to catch you; I am genuinely asking what the best evidence is to support the claim.)

[BenBurch]

Oops. Too late. :flamed:


Ben, while we are on this point, what is the most definitive evidence of the UPS batteries in WTC2 NE?

(Mind you, I'm not doubting anything or trying to catch you; I am genuinely asking what the best evidence is to support the claim.)

Well, the building plan modifications to that floor which significantly strengthened the floor in that corner (and indeed you had to be in a corner to add the sort of weight they were adding) which were labeled "UPS" is the big clue. And just to be sure, somebody checked with United Parcel Service and they had no facility there. The rest of the floor was rented by a bank which had a data-center.

[BenBurch]

Also. Max, see here; http://11-settembre.blogspot.com/2007/02/ups-on-81st-floor-of-wtc2.html

[Max Photon]

Apollo20, (and Steven if you're reading this),


For the sake of discussion, let's say the iron microspheres WERE formed from thermite planted in the WTCs.

How did Si get in the iron microspheres?


I have put forth the notion that thermite was planted in some perimeter box columns at impact floors. I have describes several possible modes, ranging from just a little thermite to heat the bolts, to columns packed with thermite so that the (not-welded) bolt-access-hole covers would pop off from internal pressure upon ignition of the thermite, and the burning content would be spewed out onto piles of debris (thereby creating some of the long-lived, energetic "fires on piles of debris").

But why wouldn't the thermite burn through the bottom of the column?

Somewhere in the debris field that is my writings is a scenario in which the box columns were filled with sand or silica to the bottom of the lower bolt-access-hole (so there is about a foot of sand in the column). Thermite was then packed on top. When the thermite was ignited by All-Weather Max Photon-brand Thermite Fuse right near the bolt-access-hole, pressure popped off the cover, and the column became like a bulk thermite dispenser.

I have proposed that WTC2's 10-minute metal fire - which is located exactly at Column 301/81's bolt-access-hole - is in fact burning thermite being spewed onto the collected debris. (Note that the burn front is outside of the column, or right at the hole. Little thermite burns inside the column.)

The sand or silica source next to the burning thermite might account for:

Thermite being able to be packed in columns, without melting the columns;
Si being found in the iron microspheres (which formed as the thermite burned AND as the towers collapsed and dispersed molten material);
No evidence of iron in the bottom of the columns (not that anyone looked).


Not TAM simple, but hey, even Apollo20 said the formation of iron microspheres (Now with Si ! ) below iron's melting point of 1536 C is a - Class? - that's right - a "complex process."


(I really have quite an imagination, don't I?)


Max

[Max Photon]

Thanks Ben. I had seen Henry's fine piece before. I was wondering if there were other sources.

By the way, I'm always puzzled why some are happy to accept the presence of UPS banks, yet resistant to the idea that the UPS banks served as an obstacle to the jet's path, thereby helping to create the Cold Spot, with debris on either side.


Fortunately, NIST modeled this major source of mass ; )

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Apollo20, (and Steven if you're reading this),


For the sake of discussion, let's say the iron microspheres WERE formed from thermite planted in the WTCs.

How did Si get in the iron microspheres?


Max

I would tell you, however it is classified military tech that I am not supposed to know it has to do with the complication of mixing nano particles.
PS. after I tell you I can also not allow you to live to tell anyone else. :D

[T.A.M.]

Could someone kindly forward the link to the Physorg forum where Jones and Greening will discuss this further, when it becomes available. I would be interested in being a silent but interested spectator.

TAM:)

[OneRedEye]

most likely here (can't post links): forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=12383&st=8475, the latest page.

[T.A.M.]

Thanks ORE.

Am I correct in assuming you are One White Eye over there, or is that your Nemesis?

TAM:)

[OneRedEye]

haha, it's me, but it might be my nemesis as well.

[pomeroo]

Apollo20, (and Steven if you're reading this),


For the sake of discussion, let's say the iron microspheres WERE formed from thermite planted in the WTCs.

How did Si get in the iron microspheres?


I have put forth the notion that thermite was planted in some perimeter box columns at impact floors. I have describes several possible modes, ranging from just a little thermite to heat the bolts, to columns packed with thermite so that the (not-welded) bolt-access-hole covers would pop off from internal pressure upon ignition of the thermite, and the burning content would be spewed out onto piles of debris (thereby creating some of the long-lived, energetic "fires on piles of debris").

But why wouldn't the thermite burn through the bottom of the column?

Somewhere in the debris field that is my writings is a scenario in which the box columns were filled with sand or silica to the bottom of the lower bolt-access-hole (so there is about a foot of sand in the column). Thermite was then packed on top. When the thermite was ignited by All-Weather Max Photon-brand Thermite Fuse right near the bolt-access-hole, pressure popped off the cover, and the column became like a bulk thermite dispenser.

I have proposed that WTC2's 10-minute metal fire - which is located exactly at Column 301/81's bolt-access-hole - is in fact burning thermite being spewed onto the collected debris. (Note that the burn front is outside of the column, or right at the hole. Little thermite burns inside the column.)

The sand or silica source next to the burning thermite might account for:

Thermite being able to be packed in columns, without melting the columns;
Si being found in the iron microspheres (which formed as the thermite burned AND as the towers collapsed and dispersed molten material);
No evidence of iron in the bottom of the columns (not that anyone looked).
Not TAM simple, but hey, even Apollo20 said the formation of iron microspheres (Now with Si ! ) below iron's melting point of 1536 C is a - Class? - that's right - a "complex process."


(I really have quite an imagination, don't I?)


Max



Max, have you noticed that, as the discussion between Dr. Greening and Steven Jones is a scientific discussion, you just don't have anything to contribute? No, you haven't.

Come to think of it, Jones isn't cutting a more impressive figure than Max is and he is supposed to be a real scientist.

[BenBurch]

...
Come to think of it, Jones isn't cutting a more impressive figure than Max is and he is supposed to be a real scientist.

*Ahem* Cold Fusion...

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Max, have you noticed that, as the discussion between Dr. Greening and Steven Jones is a scientific discussion, you just don't have anything to contribute? No, you haven't.

Come to think of it, Jones isn't cutting a more impressive figure than Max is and he is supposed to be a real scientist.

If Dr. Greening told me that something was about to explode and I could save myself by jumping over a cliff to the water below, I would jump.
If Dr. Jones told me that something was going to explode and I could save myself by walking across the street, I would remain on the side of the street where I stood or walk toward the expected explosion.
Dr. Jones could have saved me months if not years of work and experimentation just by saying in public that what he found was Iron oxide Fe304 Magnetite.
I am betting his chips are maghemite or Hemite, I know they are Fe203 with an aluminum like material, from posts on other forums.
I think were seeing the chemistry that I have already noticed in experiments.

I have spent years trying to produce solid Iron spheres with sulfur in them when I produce magnetite micro spheres by accident thousands and thousands and thousands of times.
I made the mistake of believing that Dr. Jones was a serious scientist too that he knew what he was talking about when he said the micro spheres could only be produced at 1565c I was indeed wrong.
I could have already solved the floor pan puzzle if I had spent more time concentrating on that than on the micro spheres.
As for the chips,
Magnetite reacts with aluminum silicates to form thin chips the oxidation of magnetite to magnhemite turns them red, and they are red on one side, and Grey aluminum silicate on the other.
This would be humorous if it were not such a useless waste of time.
I would much rather be blowing things up in models of the floor conduits that is where the real chemical action is.

[T.A.M.]

I'll be sure to have your NWO handler provide you with a more exciting assignment the moment this current one is completed...you know what to do...

TAM;)

[pomeroo]

If Dr. Greening told me that something was about to explode and I could save myself by jumping over a cliff to the water below, I would jump.
If Dr. Jones told me that something was going to explode and I could save myself by walking across the street, I would remain on the side of the street where I stood or walk toward the expected explosion.
Dr. Jones could have saved me months if not years of work and experimentation just by saying in public that what he found was Iron oxide Fe304 Magnetite.
I am betting his chips are maghemite or Hemite, I know they are Fe203 with an aluminum like material, from posts on other forums.
I think were seeing the chemistry that I have already noticed in experiments.

I have spent years trying to produce solid Iron spheres with sulfur in them when I produce magnetite micro spheres by accident thousands and thousands and thousands of times.
I made the mistake of believing that Dr. Jones was a serious scientist too that he knew what he was talking about when he said the micro spheres could only be produced at 1565c I was indeed wrong.
I could have already solved the floor pan puzzle if I had spent more time concentrating on that than on the micro spheres.
As for the chips,
Magnetite reacts with aluminum silicates to form thin chips the oxidation of magnetite to magnhemite turns them red, and they are red on one side, and Grey aluminum silicate on the other.
This would be humorous if it were not such a useless waste of time.
I would much rather be blowing things up in models of the floor conduits that is where the real chemical action is.


CC, my problem is that I really don't know what to make of Jones. I get the impression that he tailors his science to his agenda, but why is he promoting an agenda in the first place? I confess that I don't know much about him, beyond the information that is available, well, everywhere. Thomas Eagar, the MIT metallurgy professor, objected when I suggested that nobody who writes a book about Jesus' visit to the Americas can be much of a critical thinker. It isn't my purpose to mock another person's religious faith, but I stand by what I said. So, why is this guy hell-bent on proving that 9/11 was an inside job? Why is he willing to disgrace himself in the eyes of his colleagues to advance theories that are obviously wrong-headed? I have the same problem with Morgan Reynolds. Okay, he hates Bush with a passion--how does it hurt your devil-figure to make a horse's ass of yourself?

[leftysergeant]

At first I found it annoying, now I think that it might be significant the Jones giggles a lot when he talks.

Nervous habit or a sign that maybe there is some deeper mental process at work here?

Maybe he doesn't believe this crap himself, or is a fraid he will be found out for a liar or a moron?

Maybe losing his marbles?

[BenBurch]

Some really smart people have a tenuous grasp on their marbles to begin with. Which makes their conclusions hard to trust...

[Dog Town]

CC, my problem is that I really don't know what to make of Jones. I get the impression that he tailors his science to his agenda, but why is he promoting an agenda in the first place??

Go back and view the "C-Span Debacle". S. Jones giggles about how many friends he has made, since getting involved with da twoof! Creepy as all get out!
Some people just wanna dance!

[MIKILLINI]

I would tell you, however it is classified military tech that I am not supposed to know it has to do with the complication of mixing nano particles.
PS. after I tell you I can also not allow you to live to tell anyone else. :D

You must be careful with that info Chainsaw.(here comes the woo) Max has said there is a super secret organization whose specialty is Military Deception. In other words, 9/11 was a set up by those who pull the strings. So the information you have that's not been totally revealed is something they don't want anyone to discover. Keep your senses heightened and be keenly aware of your surroundings (end of the woo).

[Major_Tom]

Frank, thanks for your compilation of info.

I participate in a forum with Steven Jones at stj911.


Could I present your e-mail exchange over in that forum for discussion with the folks at the Scholars for 9-11 Truth & Justice?

Please do keep up the quality research.

[metamars]

And on the topic of Si in commercial thermite, I was always under the impression that thermite is a mixture of finely divided iron oxide and aluminum with small amounts of accelerants/oxidizers based on K, Mn Sr or Ba compounds. You, on the other hand, claim this is NOT the case simply because you detected Si in your thermite combustion residues. Did you carry out your thermite tests in a sand pit? I ask this question not to be facetious; I simply wonder why anyone would add a silicon compound to thermite! Anyway, please provide a reference for your assertion that thermite usually contains Si - a manufacturer's analysis sheet would be helpful in this regard.....




* Do any of your contacts have facilities with which they could study the red/gray chips? (And microspheres, for that matter.)

* Also, did you check out the physorg article re detonators on a chip?
http://www.physorg.com/news117207324.html

While we still don't know the details of the particular chips that Professor Jones spoke about, the physorg article tells us that That will be possible, in part, because hundreds of fuzes, each about a centimeter square, can be fabricated simultaneously using techniques developed by the microelectronics industry.

If, indeed, chips with superthermite on one side, were fabricated "using techniques developed by the microelectronics industry", I would think that the presence of Si would be unsurprising. Is it correct or incorrect that any microspheres resulting from ignition of same would also have some Si? Another way of phrasing this question is: if thermite is configured as a layer, resting on yet another layer which contains a Si substrate, would not some Si get mixed in with Fe in a microsphere which results from ignition?

Of course, this argument says nothing about Ca, K, etc.

* Finally, please speak to how one would determine exact chemical composition of microspheres and chips.

[leftysergeant]

I'm still waiting for somone to explain how these chips, if they are thermite, would useful for anything in a building demolition. They would be all burned up befre transferring the slightest heat to a steel column.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

* Do any of your contacts have facilities with which they could study the red/gray chips? (And microspheres, for that matter.)

* Also, did you check out the physorg article re detonators on a chip?
http://www.physorg.com/news117207324.html

While we still don't know the details of the particular chips that Professor Jones spoke about, the physorg article tells us that

If, indeed, chips with superthermite on one side, were fabricated "using techniques developed by the microelectronics industry", I would think that the presence of Si would be unsurprising. Is it correct or incorrect that any microspheres resulting from ignition of same would also have some Si? Another way of phrasing this question is: if thermite is configured as a layer, resting on yet another layer which contains a Si substrate, would not some Si get mixed in with Fe in a microsphere which results from ignition?

Of course, this argument says nothing about Ca, K, etc.

* Finally, please speak to how one would determine exact chemical composition of microspheres and chips.

:D metamars Check out Gas sensor electrodes, Ferric Chlorides deposition of magnetite.

Depositing Fe304 on silicon is a well known process, now if I want to arrange small Nano particles and get them evenly divided would it not be easier to adhere them to a substrate and use the magnetic properties of one in a fluid to do it?

I can not say more, as I said I am not supposed to know this for an important reason.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

CC, my problem is that I really don't know what to make of Jones. I get the impression that he tailors his science to his agenda, but why is he promoting an agenda in the first place? I confess that I don't know much about him, beyond the information that is available, well, everywhere. Thomas Eagar, the MIT metallurgy professor, objected when I suggested that nobody who writes a book about Jesus' visit to the Americas can be much of a critical thinker. It isn't my purpose to mock another person's religious faith, but I stand by what I said. So, why is this guy hell-bent on proving that 9/11 was an inside job? Why is he willing to disgrace himself in the eyes of his colleagues to advance theories that are obviously wrong-headed? I have the same problem with Morgan Reynolds. Okay, he hates Bush with a passion--how does it hurt your devil-figure to make a horse's ass of yourself?

Of course Prof. Eagar objected you insulted the book of Mormon and the whole Mormon faith.
Why would a Mormon object to that?
I would say the scholars for truth are not what they claim to be. It looks like they are more of a political Libertarian movement than anything that has to do with science.
Either that or they really believe what they claim because they do not have the ability to comes to grips with reality.
I have spoken with Dr. Jones only once and that gave me more incite than any of his scientific papers, he was clueless about aluminum reactions.

[leftysergeant]

So I got to thinking "silicon'....."chips"...

I googled every solid-state electronics componant I could think of. "Capacitor" led me to something called a "Metalic Oxide Semi-conductor Field Effect Transistor," or MOSFET.

So, basicly, it seems there might be a few gizmos that have some small chip of something red interacting with something grey or silvery all over the towers. Just a thought that hit me. I don't know this sort of thing at all well.

Could these chips be just parts of chewed-up computers and such?

http://ece-www.colorado.edu/~bart/book/book/chapter7/ch7_1htm

[Crazy Chainsaw]

So I got to thinking "silicon'....."chips"...

I googled every solid-state electronics componant I could think of. "Capacitor" led me to something called a "Metalic Oxide Semi-conductor Field Effect Transistor," or MOSFET.

So, basicly, it seems there might be a few gizmos that have some small chip of something red interacting with something grey or silvery all over the towers. Just a thought that hit me. I don't know this sort of thing at all well.

Could these chips be just parts of chewed-up computers and such?

http://ece-www.colorado.edu/~bart/book/book/chapter7/ch7_1htm

Here is a better link, http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2001SPIE.4601..226Y
How about gas sensors, smoke and carbon monoxide detectors there are thousands of things that use Fe3O4 and Fe 3O4 oxidized to Fe 203 forms red Maghemite.

[Apollo20]

Major Tom:

Please feel free to post anything I post here on other forums. Feedback on what is being said would be nice....

Chainsaw:

We occasionally found maghemite in corrosion films on our nuclear reactor pipework. It is difficult to identify unequivocally because its XRD pattern is a lot like magnetite.

Metamars:

You can analyse microspheres using a wide variety of techniques. Surface analysis using electron or ion beams allows you to look at the detailed structure of each particle and has resolution down to 1 micron or less. The other way to go is to do a destructive wet chemical dissolution of a sample, (followed by AA or ICP), to get a total (average) elemental composition of a bunch of microspheres. This approach would be useful to get information on minor elements such as Mn, Cu, Ni, V, Ti, Zn, Pb, etc. These minor elements could provide useful "fingerprints" that might help explain the origin of the spheres. I used to have access to all these techniques, but I doubt that I could get a "freebee" from my old buddies to analyse WTC dust.

By the way, I think the combustion of computers and other electronics, as well as paint pigments and plastic "fillers" could all contribute to the formation of iron-rich microspheres. I still say that thermite should give only Al, Fe and O residues with very little Si, K, Ca and Ti. Jones need to focus on particles that have no Si, K, Ca, Ti..... that's if he can find such particles!

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Major Tom:

Please feel free to post anything I post here on other forums. Feedback on what is being said would be nice....

Chainsaw:

We occasionally found maghemite in corrosion films on our nuclear reactor pipework. It is difficult to identify unequivocally because its XRD pattern is a lot like magnetite.

Metamars:

You can analyse microspheres using a wide variety of techniques. Surface analysis using electron or ion beams allows you to look at the detailed structure of each particle and has resolution down to 1 micron or less. The other way to go is to do a destructive wet chemical dissolution of a sample, (followed by AA or ICP), to get a total (average) elemental composition of a bunch of microspheres. This approach would be useful to get information on minor elements such as Mn, Cu, Ni, V, Ti, Zn, Pb, etc. These minor elements could provide useful "fingerprints" that might help explain the origin of the spheres. I used to have access to all these techniques, but I doubt that I could get a "freebee" from my old buddies to analyse WTC dust.

By the way, I think the combustion of computers and other electronics, as well as paint pigments and plastic "fillers" could all contribute to the formation of iron-rich microspheres. I still say that thermite should give only Al, Fe and O residues with very little Si, K, Ca and Ti. Jones need to focus on particles that have no Si, K, Ca, Ti..... that's if he can find such particles!

Apollo20,
particles of Al203, and Fe would be created by thermite sparking in the collapse, Dr. Jones knows that, that is why he has not been looking into them.
He knows they are supposed to be there, there is one particle of thermite-thermate that would not be in the collapses however that has not been found, and I am not telling anyone what it is.
It has to do with the 2800c temperature produced by thermite and the reaction that temperature can have on another material common in the buildings.
I discovered it by accident, however since it is unlikely to be found in large amounts I doubt it will be found at all.
I also have not seen it present.

[Max Photon]

I think CC is ready for that top government security clearance, wouldn't you guys agree?

[Max Photon]

You can analyse microspheres using a wide variety of techniques. Surface analysis using electron or ion beams allows you to look at the detailed structure of each particle and has resolution down to 1 micron or less. The other way to go is to do a destructive wet chemical dissolution of a sample, (followed by AA or ICP), to get a total (average) elemental composition of a bunch of microspheres. This approach would be useful to get information on minor elements such as Mn, Cu, Ni, V, Ti, Zn, Pb, etc. These minor elements could provide useful "fingerprints" that might help explain the origin of the spheres. I used to have access to all these techniques, but I doubt that I could get a "freebee" from my old buddies to analyse WTC dust.

By the way, I think the combustion of computers and other electronics, as well as paint pigments and plastic "fillers" could all contribute to the formation of iron-rich microspheres. I still say that thermite should give only Al, Fe and O residues with very little Si, K, Ca and Ti. Jones need to focus on particles that have no Si, K, Ca, Ti..... that's if he can find such particles!


I thought this post was valuable, so I cleaned it up a little, and repost it for emphasis.

* * *

Apollo20 on WTC Microspheres

Microspheres can be analyzed using a wide variety of techniques.

Surface analysis using electron or ion beams allows one to look at the detailed structure of each particle and has resolution down to 1 micron or less.
Destructive wet chemical dissolution of a sample, (followed by AA or ICP), to get a total (average) elemental composition of a bunch of microspheres. This approach would be useful to get information on minor elements such as Mn, Cu, Ni, V, Ti, Zn, Pb, etc. These minor elements could provide useful "fingerprints" that might help explain the origin of the spheres.

The combustion of computers and other electronics, as well as paint pigments and plastic "fillers" could all contribute to the formation of iron-rich microspheres.

Thermite should give only Al, Fe and O residues, with very little Si, K, Ca and Ti.

Jones need to focus on particles that have no Si, K, Ca, Ti..... that's if he can find such particles!


[Max adds...]

Apollo20 also pointed out that once-molten iron microspheres can form (via complex chemical pathways) at temperatures far lower than iron's melting point (1536C). Therefore, the presence of iron microspheres is NOT necessarily an reliable indicator of formation temperatures equal to or greater than 1536C.

[Max Photon]

* * *

If thermite were used
In the WTCs,
Its beauty will be
The ambiguities.

[Sabrina]

I think CC is ready for that top government security clearance, wouldn't you guys agree?

Speaking as someone with a security clearance, no.

Just by mentioning it he would have violated the strictures of his clearance.

And yes, I'm aware you were being sarcastic, or at least that's how I interpreted your comment; that doesn't excuse ignorance of what a security clearance means for disclosure of certain items. Hence my response.

[Max Photon]

"Speaking as someone with a security clearance..."

That's funny Sabrina.


* * *

While we're waiting for our order of microspheres, I'd like to point out a wee inconsistency.

In this discussion, Apollo20 has kindly illuminated that while iron microspheres are direct evidence of molten iron (as he stated in a different thread), they are NOT direct evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C, the melting point of iron. In fact, iron microspheres can be formed in 600 C - 1000 C furnaces via (not very) complex chemical paths.

It would seem from this line of reasoning that molten iron - or rather, highly-iron-rich melts - can exist at less than 1000 C.

Hold that thought.


Numerous metal flows were seen pouring out of WTC2 starting about 7 minutes before, and continuing right up to collapse. The metal flows were yellow to orange. Note that these metal flows emerged from an area where there were also "white glows" (NIST doesn't want to say "white flashes") and a 10 minute metal fire.

I have claimed (as have others) that the molten metal was molten iron.

I say the molten iron is from thermite planted at various splices, and not molten aluminum from the jet debris, molten lead from UPS batteries, or molten steel from thermal cutting.

I have claimed the molten iron was the product from thermite used to heat-weaken the WTC towers.

Some time ago, R.Mackey scoffed at my assertions. His argument (if I understand him correctly) is that yellow or orange iron is frozen, not liquid, and that fact - known since the dawn of the iron age - precludes thermite or iron-rich melts.

I presented the following:


A paper by Jerry Lobdill that shows thermate with 32% sulfur with a eutectic point at a bit under 1000 C.

Steven Jones mixed up some sulfur-rich thermite, and observed with his own eyes that the iron product flowed (was pourable), even at an orange color.

Videos of thermite and ice reactions where it at least appears that orange iron product rains down, and it appears that the iron product is still liquid.


To no avail.

Yellow to orange iron is not molten.

But what would be the color emitted by the microspheres produced by Apollo20's process?

Remember...

Lemon yellow = 1000 C
Orange = 940 C


Apollo20 implies iron can flow at yellow to orange.

R.Mackey implicitly disagrees.


I'm not trying to put words their mouths. I am merely trying to point out what appears to be an inconsistency around a critical topic.

Anyone?

[jhunter1163]

Max:

Are you sure that the metal seen flowing is iron, and not aluminum, which has a much lower melting point and was present in abundance in the WTC?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

"Speaking as someone with a security clearance..."

That's funny Sabrina.


* * *

While we're waiting for our order of microspheres, I'd like to point out a wee inconsistency.

In this discussion, Apollo20 has kindly illuminated that while iron microspheres are direct evidence of molten iron (as he stated in a different thread), they are NOT direct evidence of formation temperatures of at least 1536 C, the melting point of iron. In fact, iron microspheres can be formed in 600 C - 1000 C furnaces via (not very) complex chemical paths.

It would seem from this line of reasoning that molten iron - or rather, highly-iron-rich melts - can exist at less than 1000 C.

Hold that thought.


Numerous metal flows were seen pouring out of WTC2 starting about 7 minutes before, and continuing right up to collapse. The metal flows were yellow to orange. Note that these metal flows emerged from an area where there were also "white glows" (NIST doesn't want to say "white flashes") and a 10 minute metal fire.

I have claimed (as have others) that the molten metal was molten iron.

I say the molten iron is from thermite planted at various splices, and not molten aluminum from the jet debris, molten lead from UPS batteries, or molten steel from thermal cutting.

I have claimed the molten iron was the product from thermite used to heat-weaken the WTC towers.

Some time ago, R.Mackey scoffed at my assertions. His argument (if I understand him correctly) is that yellow or orange iron is frozen, not liquid, and that fact - known since the dawn of the iron age - precludes thermite or iron-rich melts.

I presented the following:


A paper by Jerry Lobdill that shows thermate with 32% sulfur with a eutectic point at a bit under 1000 C.

Steven Jones mixed up some sulfur-rich thermite, and observed with his own eyes that the iron product flowed (was pourable), even at an orange color.

Videos of thermite and ice reactions where it at least appears that orange iron product rains down, and it appears that the iron product is still liquid.


To no avail.

Yellow to orange iron is not molten.

But what would be the color emitted by the microspheres produced by Apollo20's process?

Remember...

Lemon yellow = 1000 C
Orange = 940 C


Apollo20 implies iron can flow at yellow to orange.

R.Mackey implicitly disagrees.


I'm not trying to put words their mouths. I am merely trying to point out what appears to be an inconsistency around a critical topic.

Anyone?

Pure iron can not flow at less than 1565C

Low Iron melts with Sulfates Or chlorides at about 600-700c oxidize to Fe 3O4 and become solid magnetite, so a temperature of 900-1400 C is impossible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron(III)_chloride

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron(II)_sulfate
You can heat Low temperature melts to bright red, dull orange but not to bright orange like in the photos.

The only thing that I know of that can flow that color and be Ferris is Ferris aluminum silicate.
However it is exstremely hard to make.

It is more likely just lead.

[Sabrina]

"Speaking as someone with a security clearance..."

That's funny Sabrina.

What's funny about me having a security clearance? You think someone with a security clearance can't post on an internet forum? I'd bet you money that there are several people on here with clearances, some possibly higher than mine. Why the snide remark?

[beachnut]

"
I'm not trying to put words their mouths. I am merely trying to point out what appears to be an inconsistency around a critical topic.
Anyone?
SECRET NOFORN WINTEL
Are you sure you want to talk TS stuff? You better cloak your IP now so we can proceed. It could be the last time we see your web site when the "labs" get hold of your info, you are bound to go black.
Key word - WT TS/SCI

[Apollo20]

One point I would like to clarify is that there are obviously several different types of iron-rich microspheres in the WTC dust. Some appear to be similar to fly ash and consist of iron-calcium-potassium alumino silicates. Others are mostly aluminum-iron alloys with an oxide coating -these would be of greatest interest! There are also some that are almost pure iron which are probably cutting/welding debris. Right now Prof. Jones is sitting on a set of spectra obtained from many such particles. We need to see ALL of these spectra and classify them according to their major/minor peaks and relative occurrence in the set of spectra. I trust that Prof. Jones will show us EVERYTHING he has in this regard and NOT be selective.

[T.A.M.]

I trust that Prof. Jones will show us EVERYTHING he has in this regard and NOT be selective.

Don't get your hopes up.

TAM:)

[Max Photon]

What's funny about me having a security clearance? You think someone with a security clearance can't post on an internet forum? I'd bet you money that there are several people on here with clearances, some possibly higher than mine. Why the snide remark?


I'm sorry Sabrina, that wasn't meant to be snide at all.
There is mild humorous content in the stand-alone words (there was, anyway). :)

[Max Photon]

Max:

Are you sure that the metal seen flowing is iron, and not aluminum, which has a much lower melting point and was present in abundance in the WTC?


Are you sure the metal is aluminum alloy? The metal is awfully bright for aluminum. Also, its pretty tough to heat aluminum 400-500 degrees C past its melting temperature as it tends to run away from the heat source once melted. There are also issues about the sufficiency of the fuel load in WTC2's NE corner.

CC thinks it's probably lead.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

One point I would like to clarify is that there are obviously several different types of iron-rich microspheres in the WTC dust. Some appear to be similar to fly ash and consist of iron-calcium-potassium alumino silicates. Others are mostly aluminum-iron alloys with an oxide coating -these would be of greatest interest! There are also some that are almost pure iron which are probably cutting/welding debris. Right now Prof. Jones is sitting on a set of spectra obtained from many such particles. We need to see ALL of these spectra and classify them according to their major/minor peaks and relative occurrence in the set of spectra. I trust that Prof. Jones will show us EVERYTHING he has in this regard and NOT be selective.

I agree Completely Apollo20, I have spent months working on micro spheres that I created on the first try, basically by mistake.
I have been creating Magnetite Spheres and trying to reduce them back to Pure iron containing sulfur however it has not been working because the sulfur constantly degrades.
I could have been saved months of work if only Dr. Jones had released more information on them.
I bet however that the Chips will now be the focus of Dr. Jones research, the Micro spheres will just get conveniently buried some where in that.

[Max Photon]

Cynical does not equal skeptical.


CC, you do great work. No need to cheapen it.

(I don't do great work, so I don't need to worry.)

[beachnut]

One point I would like to clarify is that there are obviously several different types of iron-rich microspheres in the WTC dust. Some appear to be similar to fly ash and consist of iron-calcium-potassium alumino silicates. Others are mostly aluminum-iron alloys with an oxide coating -these would be of greatest interest! There are also some that are almost pure iron which are probably cutting/welding debris. Right now Prof. Jones is sitting on a set of spectra obtained from many such particles. We need to see ALL of these spectra and classify them according to their major/minor peaks and relative occurrence in the set of spectra. I trust that Prof. Jones will show us EVERYTHING he has in this regard and NOT be selective.
That would be interesting. (however I must say Jones' fantasy ideas on 9/11 are total bunk, working on his claims is like working on Chemtrail CTs; you have to dig hard to find something to work on; in Jones' case of course we have a man frantic to back in evidence to support his vision of crazy ideas on 9/11.)

What may be interesting if Jones' found sphere from dropping cinder blocks in one of his first major experiments exposing the bad guys who did 9/11 by breaking the laws of physics which Jones' is an expert on. (you would think Jones' would tell 9/11 truthers how dumb the breaking the laws of physics statement sounds; does he do that in his lectures of woo)


5. I conducted simple experiments on the "pancaking" theory, by dropping cement blocks from approximately 12 feet onto other cement blocks. (The floors in the WTC buildings were about 12 feet apart.) We are supposed to believe, from the pancaking theory, that a concrete floor dropping 12 feet onto another concrete floor will result in PULVERIZED concrete observed during the Towers' collapses! Nonsense! My own experiments, and I welcome you to try this yourself, is that only chips/large chunks of cement flaked off the blocks -- no mass pulverization to approx. 100-micron powder as observed. Explosives, however, can indeed convert concrete to dust --mostly, along with some large chunks-- as observed in the destruction of the Twin Towers on 9-11-01. (Jones experiment done on or before 9/16/05)

Here is what may have been a rational man before 9/16/05, but in his first paper, he exposes even a personable professor can have irrational ideas on an event solved 4 years early.

Did Jones find spheres in his concrete blocks? I wonder if the spheres are all over his back yard, or office where the critical experiment took place to expose unknown conspirators in on 9/11!?

[pomeroo]

What's funny about me having a security clearance? You think someone with a security clearance can't post on an internet forum? I'd bet you money that there are several people on here with clearances, some possibly higher than mine. Why the snide remark?



The snide remark is intended to disguise the fact that he is an ignorant, attention-seeking charlatan who prattles about subjects he can't understand.

[Max Photon]

* * *

Nothing is more curious
than the almost savage hostility
that humor excites
in those who lack it.

~George Saintsbury

[pomeroo]

* * *

Nothing is more curious
than the almost savage hostility
that humor excites
in those who lack it.

~George Saintsbury


George Steinbrenner in a mosh pit is funny.

Your slanders of men and women serving in the military are not.

[Myriad]

Am I the only one who finds implicit comparisons between the room air temperature reached by the fires (e.g. 800C or 1000C) and the temperature required to cause physical effects on a micro scale that could happen entirely within the hottest part of a small flame or even within a single white-hot impact spark (e.g. the formation or melting of an iron-rich microsphere) a bit silly?

Parts of a candle flame can easily reach 1400C. So, while the "temperature of the fires" on the spatial scale we use to consider phenomena such as heating of structural steel members did not reach the melting point of iron, this does not mean that higher temperatures could not exist within flames during the fire. They could and certainly did.

Try holding a match flame to some fine steel wool. Does the match flame have to be hotter than the melting point of steel, to explain what happens?

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Am I the only one who finds implicit comparisons between the room air temperature reached by the fires (e.g. 800C or 1000C) and the temperature required to cause physical effects on a micro scale that could happen entirely within the hottest part of a small flame or even within a single white-hot impact spark (e.g. the formation or melting of an iron-rich microsphere) a bit silly?

Parts of a candle flame can easily reach 1400C. So, while the "temperature of the fires" on the spatial scale we use to consider phenomena such as heating of structural steel members did not reach the melting point of iron, this does not mean that higher temperatures could not exist within flames during the fire. They could and certainly did.

Try holding a match flame to some fine steel wool. Does the match flame have to be hotter than the melting point of steel, to explain what happens?

Respectfully,
Myriad

The fine steel wool is a good point the point at which steel will oxidize is 1365c I believe, and steel wool has a lot of surface area, anything with that much surface area and made of steel could form the micro-spheres at 1365c.
However they would be quite limited, not as many as were seen in the air data.
There would literally have to have been tons of steel wool in the buildings. What you have stated though is true about the floor pans they have enough surface area that they can ignite, especially in the right chemical conditions, and release considerable heat directly to a critical area.

[Max Photon]

Am I the only one who finds implicit comparisons between the room air temperature reached by the fires (e.g. 800C or 1000C) and the temperature required to cause physical effects on a micro scale that could happen entirely within the hottest part of a small flame or even within a single white-hot impact spark (e.g. the formation or melting of an iron-rich microsphere) a bit silly?

Parts of a candle flame can easily reach 1400C. So, while the "temperature of the fires" on the spatial scale we use to consider phenomena such as heating of structural steel members did not reach the melting point of iron, this does not mean that higher temperatures could not exist within flames during the fire. They could and certainly did.

Try holding a match flame to some fine steel wool. Does the match flame have to be hotter than the melting point of steel, to explain what happens?

Respectfully,
Myriad


Myriad, it appears to me that Jones makes or implies a very strong relationship:

Iron microspheres = proof of once-molten iron = proof of 1536C+ = proof of catalyst in WTCs.

This thread is discussing complications to the above simple model:

Iron microspheres are NOT proof of formation temperatures of 1536+, as there are - for example - chemical paths that produce spheres at much lower temperatures.

And to your point, in an environment as energy-laden and complex as the WTC towers, one would expect significant temperature variations between macro and micro domains. (I'd expect all temperatures between ambient T and the burning temperature of aluminum to be represented at some scale.)

[BenBurch]

What's funny about me having a security clearance? You think someone with a security clearance can't post on an internet forum? I'd bet you money that there are several people on here with clearances, some possibly higher than mine. Why the snide remark?

Add to that the fact that there are probably a million+ people with some level of security clearance...

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Myriad, it appears to me that Jones makes or implies a very strong relationship:

Iron microspheres = proof of once-molten iron = proof of 1536C+ = proof of catalyst in WTCs.

This thread is discussing complications to the above simple model:

Iron microspheres are NOT proof of formation temperatures of 1536+, as there are - for example - chemical paths that produce spheres at much lower temperatures.

And to your point, in an environment as energy-laden and complex as the WTC towers, one would expect significant temperature variations between macro and micro domains. (I'd expect all temperatures between ambient T and the burning temperature of aluminum to be represented at some scale.)

:D You just figured out that Dr. Jones does not understand the physical chemistry involved in fire.
After all he says that thermite burning at 2800c can do what steel burning at 3000c can not that is cut steel.
That claim shows a dire lack of understanding of the laws governing thermodynamics, and never could have been true.

[Mince]

If we do got to Heaven when we die*, maybe God will endow each of us with super-intelligence so that we may reflect on our lives and see with clarity how stupid we were. We probably could all use that, but I think Max Photon, et.al., would derive the greatest benefit.






*Heaven better have the internet. I can't live without the internet. I'm sure Hell has the interenet. And I bet you don't have to worry about adware and viruses when you search for porn in Hell. Hmmmmm. Angels and bowling or no-risk porn surfing? Tough choice!

[Mince]

Edit: Double Post. WTF? Please delete.

[Max Photon]

After all he [Jones] says that thermite burning at 2800c can do what steel burning at 3000c can not that is cut steel.




Not clear what this refers to. Please clarify. Over.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Not clear what this refers to. Please clarify. Over.

The Column that Dr. Jones said could not be cut with a torch, the steel of the column was actually the fuel to do the cutting with a torch, where as thermite uses aluminum to give heat to iron and then that Iron heats the Column though contact.

The hottest temperature ever attained by a thermite device on steel is significantly lower than that obtained by a torch or an Oxygen lance, because the main cutting source of an oxygen lance is oxygen actually burning though the material to be cut, using it as fuel to do the cutting.

The best way to design a thermite device for cutting is design one that creates a gas flow that is oxygen rich and would use the material Iron as the fuel to cut though the column.
Sulfur will not do that it will only lower the melting temperature, super heated water in the vapor phase will, and it will cool the device where the thermite will not destroy the device before the cut is made.

Do not tell anyone though I do not want anyone knowing how I did it in the twin towers, I promised GWB. a perfect JOB. No traces and no evidence. ;):D

[Max Photon]

The Column that Dr. Jones said could not be cut with a torch, the steel of the column was actually the fuel to do the cutting with a torch, where as thermite uses aluminum to give heat to iron and then that Iron heats the Column though contact.

The hottest temperature ever attained by a thermite device on steel is significantly lower than that obtained by a torch or an Oxygen lance, because the main cutting source of an oxygen lance is oxygen actually burning though the material to be cut, using it as fuel to do the cutting.

The best way to design a thermite device for cutting is design one that creates a gas flow that is oxygen rich and would use the material Iron as the fuel to cut though the column.
Sulfur will not do that it will only lower the melting temperature, super heated water in the vapor phase will, and it will cool the device where the thermite will not destroy the device before the cut is made.

Do not tell anyone though I do not want anyone knowing how I did it in the twin towers, I promised GWB. a perfect JOB. No traces and no evidence. ;):D


Let me see if I read you correctly. You're saying:

In cutting by thermite, it is not the burning aluminum per se that does the cutting, but rather the molten iron melts the frozen iron, as warm water would melt an ice cube.

In cutting by oxy lance, the lance jets in O2, causing the steel to burn, and it is the burning steel, pushed by the jet, that actually cuts the frozen steel.

And I gather you are saying Jones was/is muddled on these concepts.


(CC, I think at the end you meant "and it will cool the device where the thermite WILL destroy the device before the cut is made.")


By the way, what is the initial temperature of the iron product that comes from a vanilla thermite reaction? I know it will vary by containment, but nevertheless, any ideas? I assume it considerably lower than the burning temperature of aluminum.


CC, thanks for clarifying.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Let me see if I read you correctly. You're saying:

In cutting by thermite, it is not the burning aluminum per se that does the cutting, but rather the molten iron melts the frozen iron, as warm water would melt an ice cube.

In cutting by oxy lance, the lance jets in O2, causing the steel to burn, and it is the burning steel, pushed by the jet, that actually cuts the frozen steel.

And I gather you are saying Jones was/is muddled on these concepts.


(CC, I think at the end you meant "and it will cool the device where the thermite WILL destroy the device before the cut is made.")


By the way, what is the initial temperature of the iron product that comes from a vanilla thermite reaction? I know it will vary by containment, but nevertheless, any ideas? I assume it considerably lower than the burning temperature of aluminum.


CC, thanks for clarifying.

The O2 lance jet actually converts the frozen steel to fuel,
http://www.angelo.edu/faculty/kboudrea/demos/burning_iron/burning_iron.htm
think of it as like taking a cigarette lighter to a plastic box.
Both the gases that come out of the lighter and the box are fuels.

The temperature that aluminum burns is 2800, the Iron comes out of the reaction at about 2000c, and begins cooling rapidly.

[Max Photon]

The O2 lance jet actually converts the frozen steel to fuel,
http://www.angelo.edu/faculty/kboudrea/demos/burning_iron/burning_iron.htm
think of it as like taking a cigarette lighter to a plastic box.
Both the gases that come out of the lighter and the box are fuels.




Got it.

[pomeroo]

Got it.



No, you never get it.

[MIKILLINI]

No, you never get it.

Max is still at this point:
Thermite initiated and cloaked the controlled-demolitions, in plain view, with the whole world watching.

[Mince]

No, you never get it.



We'll call this quant little experiment, "Educating Max".

[Max Photon]

Learn how to spill.

[BenBurch]

Learn how to spill.

LOL!

Max, I like you. You're a smart guy. Why do you cling so to this laser idea of yours? I mean, I know its interesting to think about all sorts of ways to make things happen that are covert and cool like that; I do it myself. But I just don't leap from that to assuming that somebody actually did that imagined thing without some real concrete evidence - And unless I missed something you don't have any?

Meanwhile the Consensus Version of the even seems to have no holes in it at all that I can find (and I have looked) and there just seems to be no real need for an alternative explanation.

So, Max, can I get you to consider this? Its no shame to change your mind, and in this crowd, its a virtue.

-Ben

[Max Photon]

LOL!

Max, I like you. You're a smart guy. Why do you cling so to this laser idea of yours? I mean, I know its interesting to think about all sorts of ways to make things happen that are covert and cool like that; I do it myself. But I just don't leap from that to assuming that somebody actually did that imagined thing without some real concrete evidence - And unless I missed something you don't have any?

Meanwhile the Consensus Version of the even seems to have no holes in it at all that I can find (and I have looked) and there just seems to be no real need for an alternative explanation.

So, Max, can I get you to consider this? Its no shame to change your mind, and in this crowd, its a virtue.

-Ben


Ben, have you been away for a light year (which is - like - a year)?

Ignition by laser got out-ranked by ignition by jet impact.


Max Virtue


ETA: For the those with low mental load capacity, the above references thermite fuse.

Thermite fuse (which ignited planted thermite) was ignited by jet impact (not by lasers).

Get it?

Planted thermite was linked and ignited by thermite fuse.

Thermite fuse was ignited by jet impact.

[jsfisher]

Ben, have you been away for a light year (which is - like - a year)?


Was that a Stundie Award attempt or part of some inside joke I have missed?

[pomeroo]

Ben, have you been away for a light year (which is - like - a year)?

Ignition by laser got out-ranked by ignition by jet impact.


Max Virtue


ETA: For the those with low mental load capacity, the above references thermite fuse.

Thermite fuse (which ignited planted thermite) was ignited by jet impact (not by lasers).

Get it?

Planted thermite was linked and ignited by thermite fuse.

Thermite fuse was ignited by jet impact.


Why do you continue to lie? It has been shown conclusively that you don't know anything about thermite and its uses. No thermite was used at the WTC complex on the day of the jihadist attacks.

Seriously--WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO LIE?

[beachnut]

Was that a Stundie Award attempt or part of some inside joke I have missed?
9,500,000,000,000 kilometers away is Max's problem. He has no concept of reality with most his posts. It is normal Max stuff confusing reality with fantasy, and appears to be reflected in his time and distance problem.

I was trying to relate this to the micro spheres and have failed. It would be a stundie if it was not normal for Max.

[jsfisher]

It would be a stundie if it was not normal for Max.

I'll let the voters decide. :)

[Orphia Nay]

A twoofer at a woo/twoofy forum I go to has posted

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4186920967571123147&hl=en

"Dr._Steven_E._Jones_Boston_911_Conference_12-15-07_Red_chips_Thermite.mov

Dr. Steven E. Jones at the Boston 9/11 Conference 12/15/07 (excerpt). New evidence in the WTC collapse investigation!"


Recently the "smoking gun" for thermite was iron spherules, now he's brought in red chips. Hedging his bets much?

Have these red chips been discussed here yet? I'd love to hear what Dr Greening has to say on them.

[T.A.M.]

there is at least one thread on them orphia, possible two.

TAM:)

[Max Photon]

Right over by the dip.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

They are discussed here they are expected what do you think computer chips are when burned.

[FactCheck]

How anyone can trust anything in Jones possession is beyond me. Especially when it makes his case. It is almost certain that something is missing/held back which destroys said case. "Chain of custody" doesn't impress me. especially in light of all his obvious lies...

http://www.debunking911.com/jones.htm

I guess he must be humored because he was a professor once. I on the other hand, I think liars should all be treated the same. Must just be me... :confused:

[BenBurch]

Max, when last I was up to date on this, you had WTC 7 containing an immense laser complex able to set off externally-mounted nano-thermite shock tubes...

Well, I am glad (really) that you now understand why that was impossible, but I still cannot fathom why you cling to thermite? Can you tell me in a paragraph what evidence makes you think this?

[Max Photon]

How anyone can trust anything in Jones possession is beyond me. Especially when it makes his case. It is almost certain that something is missing/held back which destroys said case. "Chain of custody" doesn't impress me. especially in light of all his obvious lies...



Yeah! That Jones! He makes me so mad!

He should have handled the evidence like they handled WTC steel.

[pomeroo]

Yeah! That Jones! He makes me so mad!

He should have handled the evidence like they handled WTC steel.


Uh, exactly who, apart from conspiracy liars, is claiming that the recovered steel was mishandled?

[Max Photon]

... I still cannot fathom why you cling to thermite? Can you tell me in a paragraph what evidence makes you think this?


Certainly. First, note that roughly 99% of the evidence - the steel - was destroyed. Now we are forced to do with what little evidence we can get. The remaining evidence that thermite was used to heat-weaken the towers to initiate collapse is found in the impeccable NCSTAR 1-5A/9/C, and in the videos and photos from which that report was derived. I claim that the numerous anomalous phenomena in 15A9C are best explained by planted incendiaries. But to see this, one must first be very familiar with the report, have a clear mental catalog of the anomalous phenomena I am describing, have seen examples of these phenomena in video, and pondered what it means that these phenomena are - according to NIST - correlated. Without these minimal prerequisites, MAX-MIHOP makes zero sense. In fact, to help people with these prerequisites, I started Bedtime Stories, with Max Photon (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3152327#post3152327). It's really potent - everyone's asleep.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

The two most likely canidates are inducers and gas sensors for the Chips, http://powerelectronics.com/mag/power_inductor_core_material/

Some electronic books even advocate using fly ash magnetite particles in place of iron powder. In large Inductors.

Carbon monoxide an smoke detectors also use Iron oxide and tin with aluminum.

[Mince]

Yeah! That Jones! He makes me so mad!

He should have handled the evidence like they handled WTC steel.



So, you've read the report on how the WTC steel was handled? Or are you just parroting Loose Change?


**SQUAWK SQUAWK**

How was it mishandled?

**SQUAWK SQUAWK**

[FactCheck]

Yeah! That Jones! He makes me so mad!

He should have handled the evidence like they handled WTC steel.

Better to have a guy like Jones give us photos of pancaked concrete floors and call them molten steel, huh... Or fuzzy vid caps of a broken window area of WTC 7 and call it squibs when it falls apart... Or what about the incredible research skills shown when he points to a white area of an Internet photo and calls it thermite. Or the photo of WTC 7 before the north tower fell and say it was taken after it fell.

You people like to say there are too many coincidences on 9/11. You never look at the many coincidences of guys like Jones.

And that you defend someone with that track record proves to me you are not interested in truth. As others have pointed out, you know you aren't telling the truth. You may have others here fooled but not me.

D.3.1 Identifying and Saving Pieces
As shown in Figure D-4, the engineers searched through unsorted piles of steel for pieces from WTC 1 and WTC 2 impact areas and from WTC 5 and WTC 7. They also checked for pieces of steel exposed to fire. Specifically, the engineers looked for the following types of steel members:
• Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were exposed to fire and/or impacted by the aircraft.
• Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were above the impact zone.
• Badly burnt pieces from WTC 7.
• Connections from WTC 1, 2, and 7, such as seat connections, single shear plates, and column splices.
• Bolts from WTC 1, 2, and 7 that were exposed to fire, fractured, and/or that appeared undamaged.
• Floor trusses, including stiffeners, seats, and other components.
• Any piece that, in the engineer’s professional opinion, might be useful for evaluation. When there was any doubt about a particular piece, the piece was kept while more information was gathered. A conservative approach was taken to avoid having important pieces processed in salvage yard operations.


http://doc.tms.org/ezMerchant/prodtms.nsf/ProductLookupItemID/JOM-0203-5/$FILE/JOM-0203-5F.pdf?OpenElement

[Orphia Nay]

The two most likely canidates are inducers and gas sensors for the Chips, http://powerelectronics.com/mag/power_inductor_core_material/

Some electronic books even advocate using fly ash magnetite particles in place of iron powder. In large Inductors.

Carbon monoxide an smoke detectors also use Iron oxide and tin with aluminum.

Interesting, CC. What do you think of the suggestion (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3281041&postcount=9)that the red chips are paint flecks?

I just found an image of one of Jones' comparisons:

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w194/orphia/JonesChemSigComparison.jpg

http://stj911.org/jones/Boston_2007.html

Edit: they don't look the same to me. Plus, why is the one on the right cut short?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Interesting, CC. What do you think of the suggestion (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3281041&postcount=9)that the red chips are paint flecks?

I just found an image of one of Jones' comparisons:

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w194/orphia/JonesChemSigComparison.jpg

http://stj911.org/jones/Boston_2007.html

Edit: they don't look the same to me. Plus, why is the one on the right cut short?

It looks like he has found inducers each is different depending on the amount of charge stored in the inducer.
Also composition of electronics would vary, he also might have found pre 1980 microchips, or transistors.

Depositing Fe 304 0n a chip is well known oxidize that chip in a fire, and you have exactly what Dr. Jones found.

[T.A.M.]

I would like to see him present the spectral outputs from his chips placed next to outputs from these inducers CC...he conveniently has a slide up only showing them compared to thermite...why am I not surprised.

TAM:)

[Max Photon]

Has anyone ever considered just joining STJ911, which seems to be Jones-friendly territory, and simply ask what's up with l'microspheres, and read up on posts about them...maybe even toss Steven a question or two?

TAM, you'd be good. Just go in through the front door. Hide nothing. Be polite. Be constructive...and simply ask.





(Oh yeah, tell them Max sent you.)

[FactCheck]

Double post...

[FactCheck]

Has anyone ever considered just joining STJ911, which seems to be Jones-friendly territory, and simply ask what's up with l'microspheres, and read up on posts about them...maybe even toss Steven a question or two?

TAM, you'd be good. Just go in through the front door. Hide nothing. Be polite. Be constructive...and simply ask.

(Oh yeah, tell them Max sent you.)

That's exactly how they pad their membership. You join as a critic of the conspiracy story - to enlighten the sheep - and they use it to say "See how many "scholars" think the towers were blown up?"

Giving these charlatans anything other than scorn is helping them con the public.

[Pookster]

That's exactly how they pad their membership. You join as a critic of the conspiracy story - to enlighten the sheep - and they use it to say "See how many "scholars" think the towers were blown up?"

Giving these charlatans anything other than scorn is helping them con the public.

Spot on. Plus, I don't need to become a member of an absurd group/forum in order to pose questions to them, just as I don't need to join a racist group/forum to pose questions to them.

[FactCheck]

I've always felt there is a very big difference between the people on top of the conspiracy industry and their consumers. Most of the consumers are simply people who lack critical thinking skills and are too lazy to do their own research. But the people on top, the industry leadership is doing meticulous research to find any and every quote or photo which can be manipulated into a tool to create more consumers.

[T.A.M.]

Did we not have S. Jones answer some questions through a forum member here who had an email convo with him? I believe, IIRC, that he selectively answered a couple of questions, but did not answer much of anything important.

Anyone remember the title of the thread where this was discussed?

You would not pay me enough to provide my personal information to a 9/11 truth site of any kind...sorry Max.

TAM:)

[Max Photon]

Well hopefully Jones will provide more information at Physorg after he's done raging. :)


Happy New Year everyone!

Don't drink and think.

[T.A.M.]

I look forward to the release of his samples and data sets for independent verification and review...

Happy New Year Max...Think before you Drink.

TAM:)

[FactCheck]

My wish for 2008 is that no one uses Jones lies as an excuse to blow something up McVeigh style.

[BenBurch]

My wish for 2008 is that no one uses Jones lies as an excuse to blow something up McVeigh style.

I hope somebody tries! I do! Because with the sort of grounding in reality Truthers have, they will blow themselves to eternity just making the bomb, and we will have;

1. A few less idiots in the gene pool.

2. Reason to outlaw them all as terrorists.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

My wish for 2008 is that no one uses Jones lies as an excuse to blow something up McVeigh style.


They can try, but I think they'll have a tough time handling all that thermite and figuring out where to put it...

[pomeroo]

Certainly. First, note that roughly 99% of the evidence - the steel - was destroyed. Now we are forced to do with what little evidence we can get. The remaining evidence that thermite was used to heat-weaken the towers to initiate collapse is found in the impeccable NCSTAR 1-5A/9/C, and in the videos and photos from which that report was derived. I claim that the numerous anomalous phenomena in 15A9C are best explained by planted incendiaries. But to see this, one must first be very familiar with the report, have a clear mental catalog of the anomalous phenomena I am describing, have seen examples of these phenomena in video, and pondered what it means that these phenomena are - according to NIST - correlated. Without these minimal prerequisites, MAX-MIHOP makes zero sense. In fact, to help people with these prerequisites, I started Bedtime Stories, with Max Photon (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3152327#post3152327). It's really potent - everyone's asleep.


You're lying, as usual. The steel lay around for months. NIST researchers were not denied access.
You are an agenda-driven ignoramus who doesn't understand anything about the use of thermite. There were no "planted incendiaries"--no one who works in demolition thinks you have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. Your imaginary conspiracy is mathematically impossible.

[metamars]

Learn how to spill.

Max, you crack me up. You are a bright ray of, well, photonic sunshine shining through a cloud of dour, pretentious dilettantes.

I am a dilettante, also, but not so dour that I can't appreciate your humor.

Have you considered writing for the Onion? Hollywood? (after the strike ends, that is)

[FactCheck]

Max, you crack me up. You are a bright ray of, well, photonic sunshine shining through a cloud of dour, pretentious dilettantes.

I am a dilettante, also, but not so dour that I can't appreciate your humor.

Have you considered writing for the Onion? Hollywood? (after the strike ends, that is)This ironically comes from someone who once entertained the idea of micro-nukes in the basement of the towers. The "Elevator Cannon" theory I believe. The idea was that a mini nuke was placed in the basement of the towers core, and the core directed the blast to the top sections. Did I get that right Metamars? I can link to the physorg page if you like.

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=3108&view=findpost&p=50951

It was pointed out that people survived the nuclear explosion in the core staircase. And that elevators would have been sent into the air like shotgun pellets. Hence the name 'elevator cannon'...

At least Max is skirtting the realm of reality. Heat DID weaken the steal. Just not the way he suggests. I'm not sure even the writters of star trek would entertain the elevator cannon theory on one of their shows. With or without the strike.

[uk_dave]

Have you considered writing for the Onion? Hollywood? (after the strike ends, that is)

Nah, even the onion retain some logic in their articles

[jhunter1163]

This ironically comes from someone who once entertained the idea of micro-nukes in the basement of the towers. The "Elevator Cannon" theory I believe. The idea was that a mini nuke was placed in the basement of the towers core, and the core directed the blast to the top sections. Did I get that right Metamars? I can link to the physorg page if you like.

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=3108&view=findpost&p=50951

It was pointed out that people survived the nuclear explosion in the core staircase. And that elevators would have been sent into the air like shotgun pellets. Hence the name 'elevator cannon'...

At least Max is skirtting the realm of reality. Heat DID weaken the steal. Just not the way he suggests. I'm not sure even the writters of star trek would entertain the elevator cannon theory on one of their shows. With or without the strike.

Didn't Willy Wonka have one of those elevator cannons? OMG INSIDE JORB!!11!!!!!ELEVENTY!!!

[FactCheck]

Didn't Willy Wonka have one of those elevator cannons? OMG INSIDE JORB!!11!!!!!ELEVENTY!!!

Even Willy didn't have a micro-nuke in the factory core. Though there are many similarities between the Chocolate factory and the conspiracy industry. Both have Umpa Lumpas who eat way too many chocolate bars.

[LashL]

Even Willy didn't have a micro-nuke in the factory core. Though there are many similarities between the Chocolate factory and the conspiracy industry. Both have Umpa Lumpas who eat way too many chocolate bars.

:D

[metamars]

This ironically comes from someone who once entertained the idea of micro-nukes in the basement of the towers. The "Elevator Cannon" theory I believe. The idea was that a mini nuke was placed in the basement of the towers core, and the core directed the blast to the top sections. Did I get that right Metamars? I can link to the physorg page if you like.

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=3108&view=findpost&p=50951

It was pointed out that people survived the nuclear explosion in the core staircase. And that elevators would have been sent into the air like shotgun pellets. Hence the name 'elevator cannon'...

At least Max is skirtting the realm of reality. Heat DID weaken the steal. Just not the way he suggests. I'm not sure even the writters of star trek would entertain the elevator cannon theory on one of their shows. With or without the strike.

Ironic? Apparently, you are attempting a deft insult, by implying that you find my serious discussion of the micro-nuke hypothesis in physorg as humorous as Max Photon's many funny and witty posts, of which the one I quoted made me laugh out loud. And in which it's obvious that MP intended to be funny.

Well, boo hoo.

Not to worry, though, I can easily read more of MP to cheer me up.

[DGM]

Did the debate or discussion on this subject a Phys.org between Dr. Greening and Dr Jones ever happen? I thought it was supposed to be after the holidays.

Does anybody know what happened?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Did the debate or discussion on this subject a Phys.org between Dr. Greening and Dr Jones ever happen? I thought it was supposed to be after the holidays.

Does anybody know what happened?

NO it did not happen, I doubt that it will ever happen.

I believe that some one got a personal chemistry lesson, on it, I can not say more.

[DGM]

NO it did not happen, I doubt that it will ever happen.

I believe that some one got a personal chemistry lesson, on it, I can not say more.
OK, I can accept that. Thanks for the update.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

OK, I can accept that. Thanks for the update.

Your Welcome, and let me just state for the record that there are some woo you are better off not knowing about.:eek::eye-poppi:covereyes

[Apollo20]

Chainsaw:

Only time will tell if Dr. Jones will share any more information with us....

By the way, here is another thought on this topic:

There are probably many minor, or trace, elements to look for in the WTC microspheres whose concentrations relative to a major element like Fe or Al could provide key forensic evidence as to the contribution of a particular source, ( e.g. paint, ash, electronics, welding fume, thermite, etc), to the total mass of microspheres.

However, energy dispersive X-ray analysis is not sensitive enough to detect and quantify with sufficient precision many of the elements I am thinking of. Thus I would use other analytical techniques (e.g., AA, ICP, NAA, etc), to get some concentrations for some key minor (i.e. less than say 1 %) elements.

Thus I would look for Ti, V, Cr, Mn, Ni, Cu, Zn, Sb and Mo in the microspheres and compare the values with the concentration to Fe. This could potentially tell you where the Fe is coming from, (e.g. structural steel, galvanized steel, welding electrodes, etc). Also I would analyse for Ag and compare it to Al. Why this one? Well did you know that the aluminum alloy facade on the Twin Towers was actually an Al-Ag alloy specially developed for this purpose by Alcoa. No Ag in microspheres containing Al means the Al is not coming from the Al facade....

[BenBurch]

Your Welcome, and let me just state for the record that there are some woo you are better off not knowing about.:eek::eye-poppi:covereyes

Oh, now I'm gonna be curious for days....

Like Pandora, I just have to open the box and look inside.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Chainsaw:

Only time will tell if Dr. Jones will share any more information with us....

By the way, here is another thought on this topic:

There are probably many minor, or trace, elements to look for in the WTC microspheres whose concentrations relative to a major element like Fe or Al could provide key forensic evidence as to the contribution of a particular source, ( e.g. paint, ash, electronics, welding fume, thermite, etc), to the total mass of microspheres.

However, energy dispersive X-ray analysis is not sensitive enough to detect and quantify with sufficient precision many of the elements I am thinking of. Thus I would use other analytical techniques (e.g., AA, ICP, NAA, etc), to get some concentrations for some key minor (i.e. less than say 1 %) elements.

Thus I would look for Ti, V, Cr, Mn, Ni, Cu, Zn, Sb and Mo in the microspheres and compare the values with the concentration to Fe. This could potentially tell you where the Fe is coming from, (e.g. structural steel, galvanized steel, welding electrodes, etc). Also I would analyse for Ag and compare it to Al. Why this one? Well did you know that the aluminum alloy facade on the Twin Towers was actually an Al-Ag alloy specially developed for this purpose by Alcoa. No Ag in microspheres containing Al means the Al is not coming from the Al facade....


I agree, Dr. Jones needs a lot more tests than just finding Si, I made my own custom blend of thermite, out of oxidized Fe 304 from steel cuttings the steel had less than 3 percent Si so the thermite had less than 3 percent Si.

Micro-spheres are common, and commonly produced in known chemical reactions, if evidence of thermite was in the buildings then Dr. Jones is clueless as to what the evidence would be.

A lot more test on the micro spheres would have to be done before blanket statements like evidence of thermite could even be taken as plausible.

Anyone can do flawed experiments few can do actual science that produces actual results.

[Max Photon]

Chainsaw:

Only time will tell if Dr. Jones will share any more information with us....

By the way, here is another thought on this topic:

There are probably many minor, or trace, elements to look for in the WTC microspheres whose concentrations relative to a major element like Fe or Al could provide key forensic evidence as to the contribution of a particular source, ( e.g. paint, ash, electronics, welding fume, thermite, etc), to the total mass of microspheres.

However, energy dispersive X-ray analysis is not sensitive enough to detect and quantify with sufficient precision many of the elements I am thinking of. Thus I would use other analytical techniques (e.g., AA, ICP, NAA, etc), to get some concentrations for some key minor (i.e. less than say 1 %) elements.

Thus I would look for Ti, V, Cr, Mn, Ni, Cu, Zn, Sb and Mo in the microspheres and compare the values with the concentration to Fe. This could potentially tell you where the Fe is coming from, (e.g. structural steel, galvanized steel, welding electrodes, etc). Also I would analyse for Ag and compare it to Al. Why this one? Well did you know that the aluminum alloy facade on the Twin Towers was actually an Al-Ag alloy specially developed for this purpose by Alcoa. No Ag in microspheres containing Al means the Al is not coming from the Al facade....


There was silver in the cladding? (You are a fount.)

Do you have any idea what karat was the facade?

[Apollo20]

Max:

I have been unable to find information on the amount of silver in the aluminum facade. I would hazard a guess it was 0.5 - 5 %. Apparently Alcoa supplied 2.2 million sq ft. of the stuff! It was a specially developed Al-Ag alloy designed to increase the reflectivity and give it that extra shiny look we all know and love!

[Max Photon]

Max:

I have been unable to find information on the amount of silver in the aluminum facade. I would hazard a guess it was 0.5 - 5 %. Apparently Alcoa supplied 2.2 million sq ft. of the stuff! It was a specially developed Al-Ag alloy designed to increase the reflectivity and give it that extra shiny look we all know and love!


Fascinating!

Until just yesterday, silver was the primary money used in the world. Even the US dollar - the real dollar - you know, 371.25 grains of fine silver - was designed to mirror the Spanish Piece of Eight.

Advances in extracting gold from ore has caused a fundamental market switch from silver to gold, moving silver to a secondary monetary role. (Actually, a better way to think of gold and silver is as serving as money at polar ends of the human scale - gold for nations buying continents - silver for the cobbler saving that day's profit - a lovely silver dime.)

Silver is indeed still money in the true, multi-layered definition of money, and silver supports a system of silver-backed credit, but it now also gets pulled by submarginal uses or attractors - such as covering the financial centers with - well - money.

That the towers were clad in silver is direct evidence of the gradual, spontaneous market demonetization of silver in favor of gold!


So now I'd love to figure out how much silver was in the towers' facade. Do you or does anyone know the thickness of the cladding?


Max

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Max:

I have been unable to find information on the amount of silver in the aluminum facade. I would hazard a guess it was 0.5 - 5 %. Apparently Alcoa supplied 2.2 million sq ft. of the stuff! It was a specially developed Al-Ag alloy designed to increase the reflectivity and give it that extra shiny look we all know and love!

Alcoa still uses the alloy, it is about .3 percent silver, I
believe.

Apollo20,

Here are some crude photos that show what I have been experiencing in experiment on the live decking.

http://chainsawsanders.com/Livedecking.JPG

Passage for electrical wires over trusses.

http://chainsawsanders.com/livedeckinga.JPG

Damage from air craft impact floors only.

http://chainsawsanders.com/livedeckingb.jpg

Buildup of carbon and explosive gasses with water vapor and HCl.

http://chainsawsanders.com/livedeckingc.jpg

Ignition of explosive gasses, and carbons along with HCl and water vapor.

http://chainsawsanders.com/livedeckingd.jpg

Ignition of metal floor pans Spalding of concrete, white flame, and increased air to fires above area of electrical conduit increasing fire temperature.

These are not actual drawings just rough concept drawings to show the mechanisms I have been working with, covering the bottom of the live conduits only increases the force of the explosions that occur in them.
Insulating the live conduits is impossible without insulating the entire floor pans.
This was a very bad idea in the design of the buildings.
I have just had so many questions on this I thought I would explain it visually what I have been witnessing.

OK the people at JERF can now call me nuts, oh and this does produce molten Iron Fe3O4 and molten iron chloride.

[Apollo20]

Max:

The aluminum panels were 12 feet long, 18 inches wide and 0.09 inches thick and weighed about 100 lbs.

(How about those nice engineering units... Oh and the steel perimiter columns protected by the aluminum were apparently limited to a minimum of 50 Fahrenheit. Yes! Deg F! Only American engineers are stuck in a world of 19th century units.......... slugs indeed!)

Chainsaw:

Wow, nice illustrations, that is amazing!

This is why NIST needs to repeat its workstation combustion tests with all the key ingredients SUCH AS PVC INSULATED WIRING included in the flooring. And let's not forget the plenum wiring below each floor ....and the vinyl tiles above .......

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Max:

The aluminum panels were 12 feet long, 18 inches wide and 0.09 inches thick and weighed about 100 lbs.

(How about those nice engineering units... Oh and the steel perimiter columns protected by the aluminum were apparently limited to a minimum of 50 Fahrenheit. Yes! Deg F! Only American engineers are stuck in a world of 19th century units.......... slugs indeed!)

Chainsaw:

Wow, nice illustrations, that is amazing!

This is why NIST needs to repeat its workstation combustion tests with all the key ingredients SUCH AS PVC INSULATED WIRING included in the flooring. And let's not forget the plenum wiring below each floor ....and the vinyl tiles above .......

I know, I just wish you could see it for yourself, I really want to video tape it sometime, however it is very dangerous, I have tried all possible shapes, round triangular, and square and different sizes.

Two inches is the smallest I think would work for the conduits, and regardless of shape I get the same reaction.
Carbon monoxide seems to be the main ignition and explosive gas with complicated reactions recurring after ignition I found a peace of concrete from the floor slab, 1 foot by 2 feet, after the explosion about 75 feet away it was easy to spot as it went directly past my head.

Ironically my first email to Dr. Jones was about a smoke explosion I had witnessed, I just did not realize at the time that carbon monoxide was that powerful.

[Max Photon]

Could you imagine if you were John and Janey Nicelawn, and The Saw moved in next door?

[twinstead]

OK the people at JERF can now call me nuts, oh and this does produce molten Iron Fe3O4 and molten iron chloride.

Nuts? No, you've read some of the threads on this forum as well as we have. We know nuts. You're not one.

[lapman]

Apollo, has Dr. Jones sent you the spectra analysis yet? Or is he refusing to do so.

[Max Photon]

Apollo20,

2.2 million square feet of cladding x 0.09" thick = 16,500 cubic feet of Al/Ag alloy.

CC provided 0.3% Ag, giving us about 50 cubic feet of silver.

There are 9549 troy ounces of silver in a cubic foot, giving us...

472,676 troy ounces of silver in the Al cladding of WTCs 1 & 2.

(...which is 472,676 troy ounces of silver more than is backing the entire pyramid of roughly $1 trillion Federal Reserve Notes, and $516 trillion in derivatives balanced on top of the FRNs.)


5000 oz silver = 1 standard COMEX contract of 5 good-for-delivery 1000oz bars

So the towers required 95 COMEX silver contracts.


By the way, since 1 dollar (not 1 Federal Reserve Note) equals - by definition - about 0.77 ounces - the amount of silver used in the towers was about 614,000 dollars.


Or - for you Bible buffs - the market rate of Christ was 30 shekels of silver, or 11 troy ounces.

So the WTC facades were worth about 43,000 Saviors.


Jesus.

[DGM]

I know, I just wish you could see it for yourself, I really want to video tape it sometime, however it is very dangerous, I have tried all possible shapes, round triangular, and square and different sizes.

Two inches is the smallest I think would work for the conduits, and regardless of shape I get the same reaction.
Carbon monoxide seems to be the main ignition and explosive gas with complicated reactions recurring after ignition I found a peace of concrete from the floor slab, 1 foot by 2 feet, after the explosion about 75 feet away it was easy to spot as it went directly past my head.

Ironically my first email to Dr. Jones was about a smoke explosion I had witnessed, I just did not realize at the time that carbon monoxide was that powerful.
Chainsaw:
Are you saying that the electrical conduits that are supposed to be safeguarding against fires are in-fact acting like a pressure cooker of sorts? Am I following you correctly?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Chainsaw:
Are you saying that the electrical conduits that are supposed to be safeguarding against fires are in-fact acting like a pressure cooker of sorts? Am I following you correctly?

They act as a trap for explosive and corrosive gasses to build up and well explode.
Because the concrete is weak above them this allows for an air stream to be pulled up though fissured created in the explosion igniting the floor pans at about 3000c.

The floor pans only burn a small amount, however that increase the availiable air to the carbons on the floor above though a fire grate chimney like effect.

Here is a little history on privous fires in the trade centers remember the air conditioning system was not working on september 11/2001 no purging could be accomplish of the smoke and gasses as had happened in 1975.
With out purging the gasses tend to build up in the buildings.

This 110-story steel-framed office building suffered a fire on the 11th floor on February 13, 1975. The loss was estimated at over $2,000,000. The building is one of a pair of towers, 412 m in height. The fire started at approximately 11:45 P.M. in a furnished office on the 11th floor and spread through the corridors toward the main open office area.
A porter saw flames under the door and sounded the alarm. It was later that the smoke detector in the air-conditioning plenum on the 11th floor was activated. The delay was probably because the air-conditioning system was turned off at night. The building engineers placed the ventilation system in the purge mode, to blow fresh air into the core area and to draw air from all the offices on the 11th floor so as to prevent further smoke spread.

The fire department on arrival found a very intense fire. It was not immediately known that the fire was spreading vertically from floor to floor through openings in the floor slab. These 300-mm x 450-mm (12-in. x 18-in.) openings in the slab provided access for telephone cables. Subsidiary fires on the 9th to the 19th floors were discovered and readily extinguished. The only occupants of the building at the time of fire were cleaning and service personnel. They were evacuated without any fatalities. However, there were 125 firemen involved in fighting this fire and 28 sustained injuries from the intense heat and smoke. The cause of the fire is unknown.


Also, from the New York Times (Saturday 15th February 1975):

Fire Commissioner John T. O'Hagan said yesterday that he would make a vigorous effort to have a sprinkler system installed in the World Trade Center towers as a consequence of the fire that burned for three hours in one of them early yesterday morning.
The towers, each 110 stories tall and the highest structures in the city, are owned and operated by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which is not subject to local safety codes.
As Commissioner O'Hagan stood in the sooty puddles of the North Tower's 11th floor hallway, he told reporters that the fire would not have spread as far as it did if sprinklers had been installed there.

The fire spread throughout about half of the offices of the floor and ignited the insulation of telephone cables in a cable shaft that runs vertically between floors. Commissioner O'Hagan said that the absence of fire-stopper material in gaps around the telephone cables had allowed the blaze to spread to other floors within the cable shaft. Inside the shaft, it spread down to the 9th floor and up to the 16th floor, but the blaze did not escape from the shaft out into room or hallways on the other floors.........

Only the 11th floor office area was burned, but extensive water damage occurred on the 9th and 10th floors, and smoke damage extended as far as the 15th floor, the spokesman said.
Although there were no direct casualties, 28 of the 150 firemen called to the scene suffered minor injuries.


More from the New York Times (Saturday 14th February 1975):

"It was like fighting a blow torch" according to Captain Harold Kull of Engine Co. 6,........
Flames could be seen pouring out of 11th floor windows on the east side of the building.


So, this was a very serious fire which spread over some 65 per cent of the eleventh floor (the core plus half the office area) in the very same building that supposedly "collapsed" on 9/11 due to a similar, or lesser, fire. This fire also spread to a number of other floors. And although it lasted over 3 hours, it caused no serious structural damage and trusses survived the fires without replacement and supported the building for many, many more years after the fires were put out.

It should be emphasized that the North Tower suffered no serious structural damage from this fire. In particular, no trusses needed to be replaced.

That the 1975 fire was more intense than the 9/11 fires is evident from the fact that it caused the 11th floor east side windows to break and flames could be seen pouring from these broken windows. This indicates a temperature greater than 700°C. In the 9/11 fires the windows were not broken by the heat (only by the aircraft impact) indicating a temperature below 700°C.

So now you know that the WTC towers were well designed and quite capable of surviving a serious fire. I repeat that this was a very hot fire that burnt through the open-plan office area of the eleventh floor and spread up and down the central core area for many floors. This was a serious fire.

Much was learned from the 1975 WTC fire. In particular, the fact that the fire had not been contained to a single floor but spread to many floors, caused much concern. The points of entry of the fire to other floors were identified and the floors of each building were modified to make sure that this would never happen again. For some strange reason, the modifications failed to perform on September 11, 2001 and again the fires spread from floor to floor.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See also:

1975 New York Times Newspaper Clippings
The 9/11 WTC Fires: Where's the Inferno?

This is also what I suspect might have happened in building 7 causing damage to the underlying beam structure.

[Apollo20]

Lapman:

Dr. Jones has sent me some EDS spectra of WTC dust but I have agreed not to discuss them on a public forum such as this so I will keep my word...

Max:

Well you might be on to something: there were 43,000 aluminum "curtain-wall" panels and 43,000 bronzed-glass windows. (Source: Engineering News Record, Nov 1970)

Chainsaw:

I just obtained a copy of a paper entitled "Pyrolysis Study of PVC-Metal Oxide Mixtures" by Y. Masuda et al. (See J. Anal. Appl. Pyrolysis: Vol 77, 159, (2006). On page 161 we read: "As for the gaseous products, considerable amounts of CO were emitted by the reaction of PVC-Fe2O3 mixtures" (The reaction was carried out at 800 Deg C and metallic iron was found in the pyrolysis residue).

[T.A.M.]

Well the presenting of CERTAIN SPECTRA to you, Dr. Greening, is certainly ONE SMALL positive step, but far from what I would call open and honest science.

I have stated before what should occur.

TAM:)

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Lapman:

Dr. Jones has sent me some EDS spectra of WTC dust but I have agreed not to discuss them on a public forum such as this so I will keep my word...

Max:

Well you might be on to something: there were 43,000 aluminum "curtain-wall" panels and 43,000 bronzed-glass windows. (Source: Engineering News Record, Nov 1970)

Chainsaw:

I just obtained a copy of a paper entitled "Pyrolysis Study of PVC-Metal Oxide Mixtures" by Y. Masuda et al. (See J. Anal. Appl. Pyrolysis: Vol 77, 159, (2006). On page 161 we read: "As for the gaseous products, considerable amounts of CO were emitted by the reaction of PVC-Fe2O3 mixtures" (The reaction was carried out at 800 Deg C and metallic iron was found in the pyrolysis residue).

That is exactly what I have been witnessing, in experiments the fires heat would have been hottest around the ceiling where the heat and hot gasses would have collected.

I have even seen trusses momentarily ignite.

[lapman]

Lapman:

Dr. Jones has sent me some EDS spectra of WTC dust but I have agreed not to discuss them on a public forum such as this so I will keep my word...


Ok. I can respect that. Can you say whether or not he is wrong as you originally claimed based on what you've seen?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Ok. I can respect that. Can you say whether or not he is wrong as you originally claimed based on what you've seen?
Dr. Greening has already said he can not discuss the data, that is it.
If you read the post in this thread though you might get an incite into what he thinks I will only discuss the data that Dr. Jones has already published as well.

[T.A.M.]

You know I respect the "keeping quiet" out of respect for his request...that is not the issue.

The issue, in my opinion, is his (Jones) DELIBERATE refusal to make his samples and data PUBLIC for INDEPENDENT scrutiny with resulting refutation OR confirmation of his findings.

And yes, I am aware that such things go on, but I am also aware of how WEAK any conclusions produced from such FLAWED science are.

Can any one, ANY ONE, give me one GOOD, VALID reason why Jones would continue to keep his samples private and unexposed to independent analysis? If his findings are legitimate, would not an independent analysis confirming them be THE BEST THING THAT COULD EVER HAPPEN TO THE TRUTH MOVEMENT???

TAM:)

[lapman]

You know I respect the "keeping quiet" out of respect for his request...that is not the issue.

The issue, in my opinion, is his (Jones) DELIBERATE refusal to make his samples and data PUBLIC for INDEPENDENT scrutiny with resulting refutation OR confirmation of his findings.

And yes, I am aware that such things go on, but I am also aware of how WEAK any conclusions produced from such FLAWED science are.

Can any one, ANY ONE, give me one GOOD, VALID reason why Jones would continue to keep his samples private and unexposed to independent analysis? If his findings are legitimate, would not an independent analysis confirming them be THE BEST THING THAT COULD EVER HAPPEN TO THE TRUTH MOVEMENT???

TAM:)
Especially since that is the very thing the twoofers are DEMANDING of the government.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

You know I respect the "keeping quiet" out of respect for his request...that is not the issue.

The issue, in my opinion, is his (Jones) DELIBERATE refusal to make his samples and data PUBLIC for INDEPENDENT scrutiny with resulting refutation OR confirmation of his findings.

And yes, I am aware that such things go on, but I am also aware of how WEAK any conclusions produced from such FLAWED science are.

Can any one, ANY ONE, give me one GOOD, VALID reason why Jones would continue to keep his samples private and unexposed to independent analysis? If his findings are legitimate, would not an independent analysis confirming them be THE BEST THING THAT COULD EVER HAPPEN TO THE TRUTH MOVEMENT???

TAM:)

It is a publication issue, the material must not be made available before publication.
If published it will be available though the publication, Dr. Greening is also I believe thinking of doing a publication, so some of his evidence as well can not be released.
My work will probably not be published so I do not think it matters that much.

[T.A.M.]

I am assuming you mean publishing in JONES?

or are we to believe that S. Jones has actually managed to get his "scientific paper" in a real journal?

If he is waiting for publication in a legitimate journal prior to releasing his samples for independent analysis, we will likely NEVER see the samples scrutinized.

TAM:)

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I am assuming you mean publishing in JONES?

or are we to believe that S. Jones has actually managed to get his "scientific paper" in a real journal?

If he is waiting for publication in a legitimate journal prior to releasing his samples for independent analysis, we will likely NEVER see the samples scrutinized.

TAM:)

That is not for me to decide or discuss right now, Dr. Jones has the sample what he does with them is up to him.
I welcome it if he can publish the data, if he can not well then our jobs as shills will be secure into the next Milena.

[T.A.M.]

you are right...totally.

I am simply calling it as I see it, which is that in my opinion, he is being an intellectual coward, and is a disgrace to the scientific process. Given the gigantic hole he has gotten himself into with this, I see how he has devolved this way. One can always hope something pulls him back...

TAM:)

[Max Photon]

Max:

Well you might be on to something: there were 43,000 aluminum "curtain-wall" panels and 43,000 bronzed-glass windows. (Source: Engineering News Record, Nov 1970)




Ah yes, 43,000...the mark of the Christians.


43,000 panels x 100lbs/panel x 0.3% Ag = 12,900 lbs Ag = 188,126 troy ounces, or 40% of my first calculation of 472,676 oz.


You know (and I'm sure you do) the variety of industrial applications of the stuff is pretty impressive.

[pomeroo]

You know I respect the "keeping quiet" out of respect for his request...that is not the issue.

The issue, in my opinion, is his (Jones) DELIBERATE refusal to make his samples and data PUBLIC for INDEPENDENT scrutiny with resulting refutation OR confirmation of his findings.

And yes, I am aware that such things go on, but I am also aware of how WEAK any conclusions produced from such FLAWED science are.

Can any one, ANY ONE, give me one GOOD, VALID reason why Jones would continue to keep his samples private and unexposed to independent analysis? If his findings are legitimate, would not an independent analysis confirming them be THE BEST THING THAT COULD EVER HAPPEN TO THE TRUTH MOVEMENT???

TAM:)


TAM, do you think that if Jones's dust samples actually showed something helpful to the fantasists he would have made his findings public?