Yellow Bamboo for real? [Archive]

Thanz

19th September 2003, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by LeFevre

I dont think they took the prelim. Randi mentions a man going and testing the Yellow Bamboo folks, he didn't say it was someone going to overlook a JREF test. Unless I have missed some mention of Randi and Yellow Bamboo getting together for a test, it sounds to me like some guy who went over there and fell to the ground in the Yellow Bamboo "style" of falling.

If they did take it and pass Randi should be there real quick like.
Here is an excerpt from Randi's July 4, 2003 commentary:

Volunteers needed! After months of back-and-forth, the "Yellow Bamboo" martial arts group has finally agreed to a protocol for a preliminary test re the JREF million-dollar prize. We're now looking for someone in their area to supervise that test. It would take place in Indonesia.

They prefer Singaraja, Bali, but any nearby location should be suitable. They're suggesting 14 July, or if that's not suitable, in the middle of August. Anyone who participates has to join their organization — don't ask me why — but there are no fees or human sacrifices involved.

At least theoretically, the process would be simple. They claim that the "attacker" we choose has to go up to their guy and simply tap him with a bamboo wand, but that he will use his magical powers to knock down the attacker from a distance, without touching him/her.

Anyone available....?

It seems that someone went there on behalf of Randi, as the person went there to test them and then reported back to Randi.

It looks like he found someone for a preliminary test, and they passed. Why isn't he more excited?

Reb

19th September 2003, 11:55 AM

DrMatt

19th September 2003, 11:55 AM

It looks like... Appearances may be deceiving. Personally, I'd like a chance to attack the headmaster of Yellow Bamboo. Rather than running at him on slippery mud, I'd saunter nonchalantly up to him. What I'd do when within reach depends on what limitations of liability I've negotiated ahead of time.

Thanz

19th September 2003, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Reb

I don't get it ... how do you know he isn't ("more excited", that is)?

Reb
I am going by the use of words "as soon as I get around to it". If someone finally passed the preliminary test for the Challenge, I would have thought it would be a priority - not something you will "get around to".

It's like - "I think I won the lottery. When I get around to picking up the check I'll let you know".

Reb

19th September 2003, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Thanz

I am going by the use of words "as soon as I get around to it". If someone finally passed the preliminary test for the Challenge, I would have thought it would be a priority - not something you will "get around to".

It's like - "I think I won the lottery. When I get around to picking up the check I'll let you know".

Given the final sentence in that paragraph, I suspect you may be reading more into these words than was intended. But of course, I may be wrong as well.

Reb

GroundStrength

19th September 2003, 12:17 PM

Score one for the chi-huggers.

CFLarsen

19th September 2003, 12:18 PM

Thanz,

Why don't you simply ask Randi yourself? If he doesn't want to answer you right now, I am sure you will learn the whole story in time.

Until then, your speculations are just....well, speculations. I am sure that you could use your efforts within the realms of a skeptical approach to paranormal phenomena much better than merely...speculating.

We simply don't know. But you could go ahead and ask Randi.

Clancie

19th September 2003, 12:23 PM

[B]Posted by Thanz

Surprise, surprise! A man who visited Bali to test the "Yellow Bamboo" group, who make supernatural claims that they can knock down an attacker just by shouting, has reported to me that he actually fell to the ground during the test! As soon as I get around to looking into this further, I'll give you a full report. This might actually be something….![/B[
Very initeresting! And if a man tested them (was he doing it for JREF? Sounds like it), then wouldn't they be the first to pass the preliminary test? :confused:

This underscores--again--the need for documentation of tests and procedures of these paranormal claims in a far more systematic way, than a paragraph or two, without much detail, in "Commentary".

Checkmite

19th September 2003, 01:08 PM

People are proceeding from the assumption that there's gobs of empty schedule time Randi can use to hop a flight to Indonesia. The preliminary test was scheduled, if preliminary test it were; now, the secondary or formal test must be scheduled in due time. Randi has reservations and appointments to attend meanwhile.

I also expect the next commentary to indicate that the tester fell down "laughing".

Thanz

19th September 2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Thanz,

Until then, your speculations are just....well, speculations. I am sure that you could use your efforts within the realms of a skeptical approach to paranormal phenomena much better than merely...speculating.

Given some of Randi's responses to other people who have emailed him, I don't think I'll bother. The "Amazing" Randi does not like to be questioned.

And Claus, I love it that you have pointed out my "speculation". This from a man who thinks that it is probable that JE has a mole at a credit card company based on.... well, based on nothing. But my speculation is a problem.

Ok, Claus. Whatever.

CFLarsen

19th September 2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Thanz
Given some of Randi's responses to other people who have emailed him, I don't think I'll bother. The "Amazing" Randi does not like to be questioned.

That is not correct. I have several times gotten a very thorough reply. I do realize - and so should you - that time is limited. That does not mean that you should neither give up beforehand or claim that Randi doesn't like to be questioned. Both only shows you are lazy.

Originally posted by Thanz
And Claus, I love it that you have pointed out my "speculation". This from a man who thinks that it is probable that JE has a mole at a credit card company based on.... well, based on nothing. But my speculation is a problem.

Wrong. The difference is that I actually do something about it. You don't.

Originally posted by Thanz
Ok, Claus. Whatever.

Fine. You don't want to contact Randi. Why did you start this thread, then?

Thanz

19th September 2003, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Wrong. The difference is that I actually do something about it. You don't.

Really? What have you done to prove the credit card mole conspiracy theory?

CFLarsen

19th September 2003, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Thanz
Really? What have you done to prove the credit card mole conspiracy theory?

Nice strawman. I am not out to "prove" a credit card mole conspiracy, I am out to investigate if it is possible and how likely it is.

I have asked people. Found out what information is available online, either for free or for a fee. Spun hypotheses and looked at those. Turned every stone I could imagine would be there. I'm sure there are more.

I can see that I don't need to ask you what you have done regarding investigating the issue of this thread, because you have already answered: Nothing. And you intend to do nothing.

Thanz

19th September 2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by CFLarsen
I have asked people. Found out what information is available online, either for free or for a fee. Spun hypotheses and looked at those. Turned every stone I could imagine would be there. I'm sure there are more.
Fearless Claus, crusader for skepticism. All this effort, and you came up with.... nothing. Yet you still think that it is probable.

CFLarsen

19th September 2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Thanz
Fearless Claus, crusader for skepticism. All this effort, and you came up with.... nothing. Yet you still think that it is probable.

Nice strawman again. I just said I was investigating to find out if it is possible.

Did I find "nothing"? Quite contrary, I think it is absolutely possible that credit cards are used to gather information. Are you saying it is impossible? That it is improbable?

If so, please present your evidence hereof.

At any rate, it's a heck of a lot better to try than to do nothing. Or to simply refute the possibility of credit card information being used, without doing anything yourself to investigate it.

That you are lazy, that's one thing. But don't critize others for not being lazy, too.

Thanz

19th September 2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Nice strawman again. I just said I was investigating to find out if it is possible.

Did I find "nothing"? Quite contrary, I think it is absolutely possible that credit cards are used to gather information. Are you saying it is impossible? That it is improbable?
On another thread I asked you if it was probable, and you said it was. We had a thread dedicated to it. You presented no evidence other than it was possible (not disputed) and that "fraud exists". I asked if you had anything else to add, and you did not.

If so, please present your evidence hereof.
Burden on the claimant, remember? You have no evidence that it is probable. We have been over this already.

At any rate, it's a heck of a lot better to try than to do nothing. Or to simply refute the possibility of credit card information being used, without doing anything yourself to investigate it.
Never refuted the possibility. Absolutely it is possible. Just not probable. Occam's razor and all that.

That you are lazy, that's one thing. But don't critize others for not being lazy, too.
Now who is constructing strawmen? I am not criticizing you for not being lazy. I am criticizing you for being biased and letting that bias cloud your thinking. Do as much investigation as you like. I applaud you for that. But your critical thinking skills leave something to be desired.

Yahzi

19th September 2003, 02:26 PM

Randi is not hopping on a plane this minute because Randi has seen this a million times, and every time it turns out to be nothing.

We shouldn't castigate Randi for being patient or methodical in his search: we should praise him for still searching at all. After as many unremitting failures as he has seen, very few of us would be able to even pretend to care about the next Big Thing.

As a martial artist for the last 20 years, I am extremely confident that no such power exists. If it did, I would be on a plane to Timbuktu tommorrow. But 20 years of training and expierence are hard to ignore.

Thanz

19th September 2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by Yahzi
Randi is not hopping on a plane this minute because Randi has seen this a million times, and every time it turns out to be nothing.
Well, not really. If this really was a JREF preliminary test, and they really did pass it, we haven't seen this before at all.

We shouldn't castigate Randi for being patient or methodical in his search: we should praise him for still searching at all. After as many unremitting failures as he has seen, very few of us would be able to even pretend to care about the next Big Thing.
Castigate? No. Be skeptical of what he says? Sure. If it is for real, I'd expect it to be job#1, and that he would have more to say about it than this blurb and would be investigating closely, not "when he gets around to it". I accept that I may be reading too much into his words, and it is entirely possible that the falling down laughing prediction will turn out to be true.

As a martial artist for the last 20 years, I am extremely confident that no such power exists. If it did, I would be on a plane to Timbuktu tommorrow. But 20 years of training and expierence are hard to ignore.
I have no martial arts training, but I am also confident that such a power does not exist. Which is why I think it is startling that a pass of a preliminary JREF test (never done before by anyone) would get seemingly little attention from him.

CFLarsen

19th September 2003, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Thanz
Never refuted the possibility. Absolutely it is possible. Just not probable. Occam's razor and all that.

Occam's Razor specifically deals with natural explanations, not paranormal ones. You are using Occam wrongly here: You are saying that it is more likely that JE gets his info supernaturally than him getting it via fraud.

Originally posted by Thanz
Now who is constructing strawmen? I am not criticizing you for not being lazy. I am criticizing you for being biased and letting that bias cloud your thinking. Do as much investigation as you like. I applaud you for that. But your critical thinking skills leave something to be desired.

Thanks for making a 180 degree turn. Now, I am "applauded", before I was ridiculed.

Thanz

19th September 2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Occam's Razor specifically deals with natural explanations, not paranormal ones. You are using Occam wrongly here: You are saying that it is more likely that JE gets his info supernaturally than him getting it via fraud.
This is 100% false. I am NOT saying (nor have I ever said) that it was more likely that JE was talking to the dead than getting it via fraud. Not once.

Occam's razor says that we shouldn't posit entities where we don't need them, correct? Have you EVER admitted that ANY JE hit could not be explained by the combination of cold reading and editing of CO? If you have, I have not seen it. Until we have a reason to discount this theory, ther is no reason to invent moles at credit card companies. You are making the mole up as surely as the pixies in my garage. Occam's razor directs us to reject the mole unless there is either positive evidence for the mole, or other evidence that does not fit the cold reading/editing model. Get it now?

Thanks for making a 180 degree turn. Now, I am "applauded", before I was ridiculed.
No, you are simultaneously being applauded and ridiculed. You get marks for effort. You get ridiculed for your bias and lack of critical thinking skills.

LeFevre

19th September 2003, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Thanz

Here is an excerpt from Randi's July 4, 2003 commentary:

It seems that someone went there on behalf of Randi, as the person went there to test them and then reported back to Randi.

It looks like he found someone for a preliminary test, and they passed. Why isn't he more excited?

In this weeks commentary Randi does not say if the man was doing a Randi Prelim test, again as I wrote earlier it this man did go to test them for the JREF and they passed then Randi needs to get there very quick.

However it still looks to me like it was just some guy who went over there. If the man was going for the JREF test, then this weeks commentary is a bit deceptive to me.

To you it looks like a guy went for the JREF, it looks to me like someone who went wrote or called up Randi and told him what happended to him.

Randi needs to clear some things up. I would expect Randi to post something extra after asking if anyone would go to test the Yellow Bamboo people, like we have a person and a date for a prelim test.

As Clancie wrote, there needs to be documentation of tests. I agree that it could and would be much more work but so is the test in general. They leave themselves open to attacks to the JREF's credibility and honesty. Not documenting every claim they get I can understand, but they need to document every test. Putting it on the net would be excellent.

CFLarsen

20th September 2003, 12:36 AM

Thanz,

Since we don't know for sure what goes on behind the scenes, we are required to seek out explanations. And we don't just throw out a term and let it be done with that.

When JE is giving readings where he comes up with information that we can read in the papers and find on the Internet, then I am exhibiting good skeptical skills. When JE requires date of birth from his gallery members, then I question what he needs that for and find possible explanations. And since he doesn't have those possibilities (papers, DOB) at the seminars, I would be a very poor skeptic if I simply said "Oh, that's just cold reading". I try to find rational explanations on how he could get information. And credit cards is one of them.

I am not lazy - like you - and just settle for a convenient term. I am not "inventing moles", I am saying that there is a possibility of moles. I can say that because I have investigated. What do you do? You rattle off some terms and think all is peachy. That's bias and lack of critical skills.

Kevin_Lowe

20th September 2003, 08:05 AM

To reinforce what LeFevre said:

Read what Randi wrote. This was just some unknown yahoo sending him an email claiming to have been knocked down.

It's 99.9% certain this is just a Yellow Bamboo cultie laying a smoke screen.

I'm expecting a followup story where the Bamboozlers refuse to be tested by the rec.martial-arts regular now on the way to Indonesia, because "they've already passed Randi's challenge - now where's the million dollars?".

CFLarsen

20th September 2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe
...where the Bamboozlers...

Next time, I'll copyright it! :)

Pyrrho

20th September 2003, 11:50 AM

http://www.yellowbamboo.com/

I've read the website. Looks like material ripped off from the writing of George Lucas. The videos are comical. In the video "Instruction from a Master", one of the "attackers" begins his fall before the "student" begins his counter-attack. My kids could produce better videos than these.

http://www.yellowbamboo.com/videos.html

Long-distance learning available for $9.95...just give them your credit card information...I wonder how many stupid people have done that.

Kess

21st September 2003, 12:33 AM

Just found an Indonesian guy posting on rec.martial-arts claiming to be Randi's representative for the Yellow Bamboo test.

He describes his experience at http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=15e8e9b.0309152017.3b138591%40posting.goog le.com&rnum=2

Take with a pinch of salt, in case he's not genuine, but it makes interesting reading (as do the reactions of others in the thread).

Kevin_Lowe

21st September 2003, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Next time, I'll copyright it! :)

Too late. I have already astrally projected back to the 14th of January, and used that term to mock the Yellow Bamboo cult in a post to rec.martial-arts.

Now anyone who Googles will think *I* used it first! Hah!

Zep

21st September 2003, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by Kess
Just found an Indonesian guy posting on rec.martial-arts claiming to be Randi's representative for the Yellow Bamboo test.

He describes his experience at http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=15e8e9b.0309152017.3b138591%40posting.goog le.com&rnum=2

Take with a pinch of salt, in case he's not genuine, but it makes interesting reading (as do the reactions of others in the thread). My opinion: That is NOT an Indonesian with English-as-a-third-language writing that. Pretty much guaranteed. And if so, the whole post is a setup, pure and simple.

Also the name - Joko Tri - doesn't really sound very Indonesion much either. In fact, I would suggest it's a pun name of some sort from somewhere else in the world.

:bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs:

CFLarsen

21st September 2003, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by Zep
My opinion: That is NOT an Indonesian with English-as-a-third-language writing that. Pretty much guaranteed.

Just curious: Why not? Too good, too bad? People very often have a hard time understanding that I don't have English as my first language. Luciana's and Patricio's English is even better.

This guy's English is neither atrocious or excellent.

Kess

21st September 2003, 05:27 AM

Originally posted by Zep
My opinion: That is NOT an Indonesian with English-as-a-third-language writing that. Pretty much guaranteed. And if so, the whole post is a setup, pure and simple.

Also the name - Joko Tri - doesn't really sound very Indonesion much either. In fact, I would suggest it's a pun name of some sort from somewhere else in the world.
I'm no linguist but I probably agree the message looks suspicious (although a general search for "Joko Tri" suggests it may be a legit Indonesian name). Unfortunately, it doesn't look as if our Joko has responded to any of the comments/questions raised in the rec.martial-arts thread.
I would've also expected Randi to choose a tester who he could trust not to be easily fooled - not just some random guy off the street who volunteers. Oh well...
It'll be interesting to see what happens to another chap from rec.martial-arts who is off to Bali in search of the truth about Yellow Bamboo (he sounds pretty determined - see http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=3cS5/%24lmB%40netnews.comcast.net )

Zep

21st September 2003, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Just curious: Why not? Too good, too bad? People very often have a hard time understanding that I don't have English as my first language. Luciana's and Patricio's English is even better.

This guy's English is neither atrocious or excellent. Generally, Asian speakers and writers of English for whom it is a second, or what is known as a "market" language, tend to drop various smaller words - usually the definite and indefinite articles. They tend to NOT use many-syllabled words, or if they do, to spell them poorly or even phonetically. Also, their grammar tends to revert to that of their native tongue, which is often very un-English-like in structure. Proper English punctuation also falls by the wayside when writing. Only those people with a long and continuous background in English reading and writing will produce the more mellifluous speaking and less affected writing styles.

As with any language, even people like ambassadors and translators with decades of experience in another language will still speak and write with a distinctive national style.

In this particular example, it seems fairly clear to me that English is this person's FIRST language and has been for many years, which would be highly improbable for a person from West Java claiming it as his THIRD and most recently learned language. The sentences are long, complex and well constructed, not just short, uncomplicated single phrase structures. And strangely, the "bad grammar due to poor English" doesn't actually appear until later in the piece. This is suggesting strongly to me that it is actually someone pretending to be an "Asian" writer. That, and other factors (the spelling and punctuation, for example) reinforce this feeling that it is indeed a hoax.

BTW, this is no poor reflection on Asian speakers and writers of English - my grasp of Behasa and other SE Asian languages would certainly mean I would commit major errors and faux pas in those languages myself if I tried. :)

Pyrrho

21st September 2003, 07:49 AM

Clancie

21st September 2003, 07:52 AM

I know this thread could logically be filed here in "Challenge" or else in "Commentary".

But I wish it could have stayed in Community where more people would see it and where interesting discussion was in progress.

After all, it's an interesting point and I think Randi's Commentaries are often very good topics for Community discussion. (I mean, can't we "over categorize" conversation? If we take out all "Politics", "Religion", "Entertainment", "Paranormal", "Sports", "Humor" etc. from Community, just in order to keep things highly organized at this board by topic, we wind up with a pretty limited range of topics left for general Community discussion. :(

I think some overlap in threads could be a very good thing. (And, yes, I know this should probably have been posted in "Administrative and Moderation Issues" instead. :( ).

Pyrrho

21st September 2003, 08:01 AM

There is still a redirect extant in the Community forum.

Of course, thread moves can be appealed to Hal.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

21st September 2003, 03:59 PM

Randi informs me that it was a kind of preliminary demo, since he didn't have a lot of information on the claim. He is awaiting a videotape to take a look.

I've just been told by Randi that no video was made, although he was sent a 12-second "clip." The clip is of low quality.

~~ Paul

Clancie

21st September 2003, 05:32 PM

Well, that's a bit more info, and it doesn't sound as if he was kidding with his last sentence.

Quick question, Paul: Was the person who observed the demo there on behalf of JREF?

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

21st September 2003, 05:40 PM

Yes, he was there on behalf of JREF.

Turns out he made the "video" with a digital camera. Worthless.

~~ Paul

ImpyTimpy

21st September 2003, 06:56 PM

Well, I don't see why he had to bring in an entire professional crew. As was posted, this was just a preliminary demo (that is to see whether they're just making things up or are they actually trying to fool people). So far it seems there's something worth investigating here and I for one would love to find out how they managed to knock him down (no, I don't believe it was magical fairy dust :p)...

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Yes, he was there on behalf of JREF.

Turns out he made the "video" with a digital camera. Worthless.

~~ Paul

reprise

21st September 2003, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Yes, he was there on behalf of JREF.

Turns out he made the "video" with a digital camera. Worthless.

~~ Paul

Anyone want to place bets that the Bamboonies will now claim that Randi rejected their claim even though evidence of its validity was acquired by an independent JREF observer?

Zep

21st September 2003, 08:42 PM

Sorry, but I still suspect this as a hoax or setup completely.

A JREF representative without at least some reasonable form of video recording? :confused: Nothing concrete, just some "WOW!" report and a few seconds of poor video? I would start to be curious about who actually was selected as a JREF representative, Mr Randi, and the procedures that were followed in this "preliminary testing".

Furthermore, the Bamboonies can produce video easy enough for their own purposes (it's on their website), and if this person was indeed a JREF representative then I'm sure they would be touting his "falling down" as "proof" of their claim against JREF far and wide by now! So are they? Anyone?

And having looked at the Bamboonie videos myself, they must be just the most complete load of badly acted hooey I have seen in a long time. Not even as well acted as the Hong Kong kung-fu movies, where we KNOW they are all meant to fall down funny!

No, I'm far from happy with this...

Clancie

21st September 2003, 09:32 PM

From "Commentary"....

A man who visited Bali to test the "Yellow Bamboo" group, who make supernatural claims that they can knock down an attacker just by shouting, has reported to me that he actually fell to the ground during the test!
Posted by Paul Anagnostopolous

Yes, he was there on behalf of JREF.
So...JREF sent a representative all the way to Bali to conduct a test of this group.

Sounds to me like the Yellow Bamboo group passed the preliminary test. Calling it a "preliminary demonstration" :confused: at this point seems rather deceptive, doesn't it?
Posted by Paul Anagnostopolous

Turns out he made the "video" with a digital camera. Worthless.

So the group "passed the test", but now there's no record of it?

How convenient.

Or how incompetent.

This makes Gary Schwartz's much maligned mediumship research look like scientific protocol par excellence by comparison! :rolleyes:

(And the need for carefully documenting JREF protocol and testing results continues to grow....)

Thanz

22nd September 2003, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Since we don't know for sure what goes on behind the scenes, we are required to seek out explanations. And we don't just throw out a term and let it be done with that.
What the heck are you talking about? What term am I just throwing out? Cold reading or Occams razor?

When JE is giving readings where he comes up with information that we can read in the papers and find on the Internet, then I am exhibiting good skeptical skills. When JE requires date of birth from his gallery members, then I question what he needs that for and find possible explanations. And since he doesn't have those possibilities (papers, DOB) at the seminars, I would be a very poor skeptic if I simply said "Oh, that's just cold reading". I try to find rational explanations on how he could get information. And credit cards is one of them.
I notice that you have avoided the question as to whether anything JE comes up with cannot be explained by cold reading and editing. If there is nothing that can't be explained by that, we should accept the most parsimonious explanation. If we think that there is more information than could reasonably be gotten from cold reading, we go to the next most likely source: Internet and news reports. A mole in a credit card company is far down the list of possibilities. It is possible, but not probable. Do you not understand the difference between those two terms?

I have already said that I agree with you that given the choice between a mole and talking to the dead, we go with the mole. But those are not the only two options, and the other options are far more likely than the mole.

I am not lazy - like you - and just settle for a convenient term. I am not "inventing moles", I am saying that there is a possibility of moles. I can say that because I have investigated. What do you do? You rattle off some terms and think all is peachy. That's bias and lack of critical skills.
How in the world is that "Bias"? What is my "bias"?

You are inventing moles - and you said that it was probable, not just possible. As for me being "lazy", why are you accusing me of this and not someone like TBK? I certainly do more work than he does, yet I have never seen you castigate him for lack of work. Is it perhaps because he just agrees with everything you say? Now that is bias.

And for the rest of you, I apologize for this sidetracking between Claus and myself.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

22nd September 2003, 09:11 AM

Clancie said:Sounds to me like the Yellow Bamboo group passed the preliminary test.
Randi specifically said that it was not a test, but a demo.

~~ Paul

GroundStrength

22nd September 2003, 10:16 AM

In all cases, applicant will be required to perform the preliminary test either before an appointed representative, if distance and time dictate that need, or in a location where a member of the JREF staff can attend. This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant is likely to perform as promised during a formal test. To date, no applicant has passed the preliminary test, and this has eliminated the need for formal testing in those cases. There is no limit on the number of times an applicant may re-apply, but re-application can take place only after 12 months have elapsed since the preliminary test

As far as I can read there is nothing in the protocall about a prelimnary demonstration. this quote from the application clearly defines what has happened here. Although the JREF may not want to call it a preliminary 'test' it seems that there is no other bucket to drop it in.

Evidence..

1) In all cases, application will be required to perform the preliminary test either before an appointed representative, if distance and time dictate that need, or in a location where a member of the JREF staff can attend.

This is clearly the situation at hand. No mention of videotape or quality of recorded media at all.

2)This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant is likely to perform as promised during a formal test.

No room for prelimanary demos anywhere. It seems if the man that went was acting as an appointee of the JREF you've got test.

CFLarsen

22nd September 2003, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by Clancie
Well, that's a bit more info, and it doesn't sound as if he was kidding with his last sentence.

We shall have to wait and see. Until then, it might be wise not to get too far ahead of yourself.

Originally posted by Clancie
So...JREF sent a representative all the way to Bali to conduct a test of this group.

No, that is not what Paul said. Please stop twisting the words. You even called it a "demo" before, but now it has grown into a "test" in your mind:

Originally posted by Clancie
Quick question, Paul: Was the person who observed the demo there on behalf of JREF?

Pah, Clancie.

Originally posted by Clancie
Sounds to me like the Yellow Bamboo group passed the preliminary test. Calling it a "preliminary demonstration" :confused: at this point seems rather deceptive, doesn't it?

Why? What is wrong with checking it out beforehand?

Originally posted by Clancie
So the group "passed the test", but now there's no record of it?

No, there never was a record of it in the first place, and it wasn't a test. Stop twisting the words.

Originally posted by Clancie
How convenient.

How blatantly dishonest of you to try and misconstrue this.

Originally posted by Clancie
Or how incompetent.

Not at all. It was simply a person, offering to go see what this was all about. Surely you don't expect Randi to test people out of the blue?

Originally posted by Clancie
This makes Gary Schwartz's much maligned mediumship research look like scientific protocol par excellence by comparison! :rolleyes:

Far from it. Nobody has claimed to do science here. GS did.

Originally posted by Clancie
(And the need for carefully documenting JREF protocol and testing results continues to grow....)

Oh, that would be nice, had it been a formal test. It wasn't.

CFLarsen

22nd September 2003, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by GroundStrength
No room for prelimanary demos anywhere. It seems if the man that went was acting as an appointee of the JREF you've got test.

Not correct, I'm afraid.

Skeptica, the Danish skeptics, can test for JREF, but that doesn't mean that everytime we look at somebody doing something, it is a test. First, we find out what the heck this is about. A demonstration is a very good thing, because then we can determine what protocols are needed. Then, we sit down and negotiate a preliminary test. Then, we formally test.

It's not as easy as going to a place and participate in a demonstration. Which this clearly was.

Clancie

22nd September 2003, 02:34 PM

From James Randi's Commentary:

A man who visited Bali* to test the "Yellow Bamboo" group, who make supernatural claims that they can knock down an attacker just by shouting, has reported to me that he actually fell to the ground during the test.

Just repeating Randi's own description of what the JREF representative was doing in Bali. Clearly he uses the word "test". Twice.
Posted by Ground Strength

1) In all cases, application will be required to perform the preliminary test either before an appointed representative, if distance and time dictate that need, or in a location where a member of the JREF staff can attend.

This is clearly the situation at hand. No mention of videotape or quality of recorded media at all.

2)This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant is likely to perform as promised during a formal test.

No room for prelimanary demos anywhere. It seems if the man that went was acting as an appointee of the JREF you've got test.
You've quoted the rules exactly, Ground STrength, and there's simply no getting around it. No, it was not a "preliminary demonstration" (whatever that might conveniently be described as now :confused: ).

The JREF observer went to Bali to view applicants who complied with the rules of a preliminary test and presented their claim. It had to be self-evident, no judging needed, and it was.

It is called a test by Randi himself, and was conducted by a JREF representative, exactly as the rules say a preliminary test must be done.

So...Congratulations to the Yellow Bamboo group!:) You're the first challengers ever to pass the preliminary test in the entire history of the JREF! :)

Good luck going for the million dollars! :)

gnome

22nd September 2003, 04:43 PM

You're forgetting rule number one:

1. Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result. This is the primary and most important of these rules.

Have they sent the signed claim form? Has said agreement been reached? If not, they haven't even begun the process, no matter who shows up where to observe whatever.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

22nd September 2003, 05:04 PM

Clancie, sheesh, come up for some air.

~~ Paul

LeFevre

22nd September 2003, 08:58 PM

I fired off an email to Randi asking if he could clear some things up. I asked

Did the man whom you wrote about in this weeks Commentary (September 19, 2003) test the Yellow Bamboo group as someone from the JREF for a preliminary test? If so, did the folks at Yellow Bamboo pass the JREF preliminary test?

I did not get an answer from Randi (unless he is really Linda!:) ) but I did get an answer from Linda. She wrote that it was not an official preliminary test.

I think it would still be great if Randi posted to clear this up.

Did they contact the guy who went before his trip? Did this guy read or otherwise hear about Randi's question for someone to go test the Yellow Bamboo folks? Did this guy go alone without any contact with the JREF and then call up Randi telling him the test was all good?

As I wrote earlier, it sounded to me like some guy doing this on his own.

So I guess if Randi doesn't post to clarify you could email him or Linda and ask.

LeFevre

22nd September 2003, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by Clancie

Just repeating Randi's own description of what the JREF representative was doing in Bali. Clearly he uses the word "test". Twice.
[/B]

And no mention of a JREF rep, just a man who went there to test them. The man is free to test the Yellow Bamboo people all he wants.

The JREF observer went to Bali to view applicants who complied with the rules of a preliminary test and presented their claim. It had to be self-evident, no judging needed, and it was.

Well again I hope Randi posts to clear this up, but the guy wasn't an observer for the JREF. If there was an agreement and the JREF is trying to back out, the Yellow Bamboo people should have notarized documents of the exchange going up to the agreement (their application at least).

So...Congratulations to the Yellow Bamboo group! You're the first challengers ever to pass the preliminary test in the entire history of the JREF!

A Congrats is in order if the guy was a JREF rep and did go there to test them for an agreed upon test of their claim, and the Yellow Bamboo group did pass this prelim test.

LeFevre

22nd September 2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Randi informs me that it was a kind of preliminary demo, since he didn't have a lot of information on the claim. He is awaiting a videotape to take a look.

I've just been told by Randi that no video was made, although he was sent a 12-second "clip." The clip is of low quality.

~~ Paul

I just read this Paul. So from this I take it that the guy who went and tested the Yellow Bamboo group did have contact with the JREF. So this guy was a JREF rep. Did this man, who took his own time and money I assume to go and test or demo or whatever, go for little reason? Reading the other commentary, Randi was asking if anyone could go and test the YB group, not go and do some demo prelim prelim test.

This thing really needs clearing up. Was there an application from the Yellow Bamboo people? If so, were they aware that this test was really a prelim prelim demo? Did this JREF rep think he was going to test them for the cash (a preliminary test for the award) or was he aware that he was going to observe what the YB group claims they can do (that should have been clarified before the agreement and in their application)?

I don't see how a 4 month old thread of Jesse's is more important to post to than clearing up things on this thread.

I've seen the footage on the Yellow Bamboo site, I remember awhil ago a thread in the Bant. . . uh. . . Community forum about how funny the YB group is. Their clips on their site are smeggin great. White tourists being taught the Yellow Bamboo way of throwing out your arms and screaming at three or four guys running at you forcing them to the ground, funny stuff.

But this issue is at the core of the JREF, it needs to be taken seriously. Again, clearing up this weirdness would be most appreciated.

michaellee

23rd September 2003, 12:48 AM

If you haven't already, read these excerpts from the Yellow Bamboo site- For the experienced skeptic here at the JREF, this will tell you everything you need to know about this group. You will see the typical "give me an out" spiel below concerning both the JREF million dollars, and the requirements to "knock down an attacker"- typical typical typical.

This test or supposed test is nothing more than hype.

Original Material obtained from:
Yellow Bamboo Member Story (http://www.yellowbamboo.com/test.html)

"I am currently level 5 which is the level you can also become a Pembina (teacher) and teach lower levels but not yet able to do initiation ceremonies. I found about YB from a friend of mine who told me about her amazing experiences. I took my level 1 initiation in August of 2002 at the full moon ceremony in Singaraja Bali at the YB headquarters at Jalan Rajawali Gang Satria 4. "

"Every level has been amazing and different and I have had many super or extra normal experiences outside the knocking down of people."

"1. First of all let me clearly state I have *no* financial or other kind of benefit from the Yellow Bamboo society. I don’t give a toss or care if you believe or disbelieve their claims or join or not it is entirely up to you. I have no hidden agenda and get nothing in return if you join or believe. So do not expect me to jump through any hoops to get you to believe or join."

"2. Second let me state that no one in the entire YB society (of which we have over 30,000 members) get *any* financial remuneration from the YB public courses. Not even Pak Nyoman Seringen, the founder, gets any money from the YB followers. In fact Pak Seringen holds a full time job in the Balinese government in the department of education. That is how he supports himself."

"All of the above is free of charge although donations are accepted at full moon ceremonies all of which are given to charities not one penny ( I mean Rupiah) is kept by YB."

"The only exception is for intensive training sessions. Intensive training sessions are given usually to westerners who cannot or do not wish to live here for the 1-2 years time it usually takes to progress from level 1 to level 11."

"In general, for someone to be able to defend themselves from attackers they only need complete the level 1 course. In the intensive mode this can take as little as 2 nights and 2 full days for really serious students."

"Here is my advice for those who are *sincerely* trying to understand more about YB. I have been living here for 8 years now and there is no way a westerner can understand the Balinese Hindus values and culture from the western viewpoint."

"So their connection to God is the most important thing in the world to them. God and Karma is more important to them than even money. For example, I suggested to Pak Seringen, would it be okay if I used my telepathy (which you learn in level III) to win the lottery."

"I thought we could use all that money for charities, feed starving children etc. Pak Seringen said it would be wrong, bad Karma to use “gambling” money proceeds even if it would do good because the karma which would attach to me would be very bad."

"So you must understand that they would not go jumping through hoops and doing a lot of things just for the sake of money. I know- that is very un western of them, is it not?"

"Now let me talk a bit about the defending of attackers demonstrations. I have watched many attacker demonstrations and here is my take on them."

"In general if a person off the street were to attack, say a level 1 defender, there is the probability it will cause internal bleeding and possible death."

"This is because a level 1 defender is using a powerful weapon and does not know how to control it, say to use just enough power to knock them out."

"So yes- if you were walking down the street and someone tried to kill you and you defended yourself- the attacker may suffer serious if not fatal damage. But in my opinion it is their karma and they deserved it."

"In the attacking demonstrations they usually do not permit someone to be an attacker until they are level IV because by then they have built up enough internal power that they can be repelled without getting permanently hurt."

"But even then, when you are an attacker even level IV or above and are repelled it really hurts a lot!"

"So this is one of the many reasons why I or others for example would not be willing to do a defense demonstration without Pak Seringen present. So I win a million dollars but get put in jail for killing someone what good would the money do me there?"

"Lower level students can only knock people down if the attacker is really angry with hate in his heart. My understanding is that Pak Seringen can knock down an attacker even if they do not have hate and anger in their hearts."

"So it would be possible, if you were just fooling around, to run up to the level 1 defender and smack him *softly* without trying to hurt him if you just wanted to be funny and show off. Only Pak Seringen would be able to repel them regardless of their intent."

"This is also why a non attacker is not effected even if they are standing next to an attacker because they do not have the intention to hurt."

"One time I asked Pak Seringen the “difference that makes the difference” in becoming successful in YB. Here is what he told me must be there:

1. First of all the most important thing is that you must believe in the YB and the power of God.

2. Second you must have consultations with a Pembina.

3. You must attend a full moon initiation ceremony.

4. You must do the mantra exercises daily.

5. You must practice the sport exercises daily."

dingler44

23rd September 2003, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Clancie
So...Congratulations to the Yellow Bamboo group!:) You're the first challengers ever to pass the preliminary test in the entire history of the JREF! :)

Good luck going for the million dollars! :)

Slow down there turbo... Randi said the man fell down during the test. Does the word "causality" come to mind? Randi has revealed no details... for all we know the man who had gone to observe the test or demo or whatever might have TRIPPED on a tree root during the test. We know nothing so why can't everybody just put their pants back on and wait for more info?

MemeHacker

23rd September 2003, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by dingler44

Slow down there turbo... Randi said the man fell down during the test. Does the word "causality" come to mind? Randi has revealed no details... for all we know the man who had gone to observe the test or demo or whatever might have TRIPPED on a tree root during the test.
I feel like it's fair to say if there were mundane reasons for falling down the tester and his neutral observers would have percieved it and Randi is smart enough to have not reported the incident the way he did if there is such an easy explanation availible.

Check out this story (posted earlier in this thread but it's easy to miss):
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=15e8e9b.0309152017.3b138591%40posting.goog le.com&rnum=2
^
It seems very likely that's the tester that Randi is talking about, or least that person was privy to information about what was supposed to have happend at the test since it was posted 4 days before Randi's announcement.

Right now I think there are 3 basic interpretations of what happend

1)The investigator is lying.:mad:

2)The investigator is honest, YB has superpowers. :eek:

3) The investigator is honest but during the test succumbed to some sort of hypnotic or tactile placebo effect. :confused:
(bizzare as it seeems there is precedent for that kind of thing)

Originally posted by dingler44

We know nothing so why can't everybody just put their pants back on and wait for more info?
Personally I consider the amount of info Randi gave surprisingly lacking. I like the earlier mentioned analogy, "I think I won the lottery, when I get around to it I'll check the ticket."

It seems like the issue of wether or not it was a real preliminary test is totally dependent on what kind of communication took place between YB and JREF. I personally think calling it a demo is misleading, they were being tested by a challenger and could have failed.

arcticpenguin

23rd September 2003, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by MemeHacker

It seems like the issue of wether or not it was a real preliminary test is totally dependent on what kind of communication took place between YB and JREF. I personally think calling it a demo is misleading, they were being tested by a challenger and could have failed.
I would like info on how well Randi knows the guy who did the (demo or test). If this is someone who Randi has no history with, I would definitely lean towards explanation #1.

Zep

23rd September 2003, 07:15 PM

I would go for option (4) Randi is playing word games with us to heighten the theatricality!

michaellee

23rd September 2003, 08:37 PM

If you read the literature at the link posted above, you will learn that the Yellow Bamboo "attacker falling down" technique requires that the attacker(s) must have "hate in their heart" or they will not succumb and fall down.

This renders the possible pre-testing and/or testing of this technique by the JREF for the million dollars completely MOOT, as it is obviously impossible to set up a protocol including the "hate in the heart" or not question.

I can see it now.. JREF and Randi agree to allow some unknown kid from Bali to test this procedure- he goes through the initiation, training and other bs, then the big test comes. Two possibile outcomes are:

1. The kid sprints toward the YB master, and when he is just about to "tap" him with his bamboo pole, the master waves his hands and shouts loudly. The kid, without being touched by the master, succumbs to the sand in pain 10 feet away as his "heart full of hate" fills with the master's anti-hateful-heart-only-attacker-energy. Onlookers cheer and believers from the US to Indonesia begin to celebrate the first successful preliminary test for the JREF million!

2. The kid sprints toward the YB master, and when he is just about to "tap" him with his bamboo pole, the master waves his hands and shouts loudly. The kid, without being touched by the master, continues the last 10 feet, taps the YB master with the bamboo pole, then waits for a reaction. In unison, the YB master, all of his disciples, the onlookers and all the believers shout "HE HAVE NO HATE. NO HATE IN HEART! HE MUST HAVE HATE. NO VALID TEST!

If the JREF and Randi know about the Hate in the Heart requirement, do you really think for a moment they would waste one second on a preliminary test of this complete nonsense?

TheBoyPaj

24th September 2003, 12:21 AM

michaellee

24th September 2003, 01:25 AM

Doesn't it say in the article quoted above that the master can repel somone who does not have hate in their heart? I would imagine that Randi would have required that stipulation for the test to proceed

Yes it does. However, Pak Seringen, according to the article:
__________________________________________________ __
So you must understand that they would not go jumping through hoops and doing a lot of things just for the sake of money. I know- that is very un western of them, is it not?"
__________________________________________________ __

This is but one of the statements regarding enumeration, etc.

Pak the master, I believe, would not partake in the demonstration for this reason. Most likely a level one flunkie would be allowed to repel someone. This is but another 'out' the YB have provided themselves.

"Master Pak could repel the one with no hate in his heart, but will not jump through Randi Hoop for sake of money!"

"Flunkie Level 1 could repel the one only if hate in his heart and if he fails, then No hate in heart!

In other words, Master Pak and Flunkie Level 1 could not repel JACK!

Right now, I have a lot of hate in my heart for Flunkie Level 1. I can prove I do because if you don't REPEL ME I'm a gonna take this bamboo pole, tap you on the shoulder with it, and when you say "no hate in heart", I will take the bamboo pole, hit you in the head with it so hard all my hate go into your head real fast!, even Master Pak will have to agree I HAVE HATE IN HEART then call ambulance to rush Flunkie Level 1 to nearest hospital to remove my hate in heart from Flunkie Level 1 crushed head.

Wudang

24th September 2003, 02:23 AM

So you can only defend yourself if your attacker has hate in his heart? That's a problem. A junkie planning to knife me for my wallet doesn't have hate in his heart. What do I do? Get him to hate me? How? Criticize his haircut? Tell him being a junkie mugger is just such a cliche?
I know several people who could beat the proverbial out of this guy with no hate at all, they'd actually regard it as a good joke. So some friends of mine have a rough sense of humour <shrug>
But aren't these people being awfully selfish? They're concerned that they could pickup some bad karma and this stops them from claiming the $1M and saving lives with the money? Well, call me judgemental, but that's hardly spiritually advanced is it?

michaellee

24th September 2003, 03:36 AM

quote:

"In the attacking demonstrations they usually do not permit someone to be an attacker until they are level IV because by then they have built up enough internal power that they can be repelled without getting permanently hurt."

The supposed participant in the preliminary test was allowed to be an attacker and was a level I, not a IV, not a III, nor a II.
I guess because he was thought to have been known to be affiliated with Randi, the YB powers that be disregarded this small fact. What the heck, getting permanently hurt doesn't sound like such a bad thing, does it?

Just more evidence of tomfoolery and typical activity from fanatical, want-to-believe or fu.. with Randi and the JREF quacks.

TheBoyPaj

24th September 2003, 12:54 PM

But didn't they insist that the attacker would have to join the group? I wonder if the initiation ceremony includes a spot of hypnosis?

RPG Advocate

25th September 2003, 02:47 PM

More information appeared!

The "Yellow Bamboo" matter I mentioned last week appears to be just full of interesting material. I'm awaiting the arrival of the full video record of this event, plus the answers to the basic questions that I asked of the participant in the demo. Of course, the YB group has been all over the Internet with celebration of this matter, and loud demands that I immediately show up in Bali to see the miracle for myself. Well, hardly a miracle. There are a number of clues in what I've already seen, and a very short — 12 seconds — video clip of the "moment of truth" they celebrate. I'll place it here so that readers can comment on it, and just see if you have also come to the tentative conclusion that I have. Just recall that my protocol required that Mr. Joko Tri simply walk up and "tap" their "superman" Nyoman Serengen on the leg with a small bamboo stick, which was not the protocol followed, for some reason or other. More fascinating things to come....

Click here to view the "Yellow Bamboo" video (http://www.randi.org/jr/yellowbamboo.mpg).

[ Source (http://www.randi.org/jr/092603.html) ]

Personally, I think the video is inconclusive. It looks like something off-camera disrupted his center of gravity, and he fell down. :D

TheBoyPaj

25th September 2003, 03:40 PM

He is definitely being followed by at least one other guy in a yellow shirt who seems to fall over first. Maybe a trip?

Why do it at night, when it's hard to see what's happening?
It's not very conclusive and, as Randi says, not the protocol that was originally described.

uneasy

25th September 2003, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by RPG Advocate
More information appeared!

How disappointing. Their web site had (has?) people falling down left and right in broad daylight.

Situation: I want to proove something that many people won't believe. I am going to video tape it. I won't do it in the dark! If they can't follow that logic, forget them.

But I still find them highly entertaining. It's like the weekly world news of martial arts. :)

karl

25th September 2003, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by reprise

Anyone want to place bets that the Bamboonies will now claim that Randi rejected their claim even though evidence of its validity was acquired by an independent JREF observer?

Oh, they've already done more than that. The headline of their press release says they won the Million Dollar Challenge. (Further down they merely claim to have passed the initial test.)

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/9/prweb80745.htm

uneasy

25th September 2003, 04:20 PM

It's too bad jref is going to loose the million.

First let me move my mouse just a little bit...WAAAAAAOOOOAAH!

Yeah, yellow bamboo is going to take the money.

Just a sec, I have to blow my nose.... WAAAAAAOOOOAAH!
OW! I hurt myself.

About supper time, I better walk into the kitchen and put the kettle on.... WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOAAH!

Gotta go now. I just rammed my nose into a door frame and I have to staunch the bleeding.

WAAAAAAOOOOAAH!

arcticpenguin

25th September 2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by karl

Oh, they've already done more than that. The headline of their press release says they won the Million Dollar Challenge. (Further down they merely claim to have passed the initial test.)

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/9/prweb80745.htm

This demonstration was held in front of a media representative from the Radio Republik Indonesia broadcasting network and other independent witnesses.

Too bad none of those witnesses are actually named.

ABOUT PR WEB™ & these News Releases
If you have any questions regarding information in these press releases please contact the company listed in the press release. Please do not contact PRWeb. We will be unable to assist you with your inquiry. PRWeb disclaims any content contained in these release. Our complete disclaimer appears here.

Lord Kenneth

25th September 2003, 04:25 PM

After looking at the video, it appears that he was pushed. How unconvincing!

MemeHacker

25th September 2003, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj
He is definitely being followed by at least one other guy in a yellow shirt who seems to fall over first. Maybe a trip?

Why do it at night, when it's hard to see what's happening?
It's not very conclusive and, as Randi says, not the protocol that was originally described.

Here is the link for Joko Tri's description of what happend at rec.martial-arts :
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=3f72ff01.74831992%40news21.bellnet.ca&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26group%3Drec.martial-arts

He says they shot a night because him and his friend were (unintentionally) late to the meeting (long drive).

He also mentions there being other guys behind him, no reason given for why they were included though.:confused:

As far as the protocol, I only know of the the July 4 one mentioned when Randi asked for volunteers but Randi's latest commentary is not completely consistent.

July 4th, Randi did NOT say "walk up" he said "go up".

It wasn't a "small bamboo stick", it simply said "bamboo wand".

Consider there may be a slight language issue for Joko and I think he can be forgiven confusing "tap" and "hit", especially if we are going to let Randi off the hook for confusing "go" and "walk".

The details aren't that important anyways, if Joko is being dishonest he could have fallen down while pretending to calmly walk forward with a foot long piece of bamboo just as easily.

As far as the what happend in the video: I don't think we can read that much into it but to me it looked like he fell forward with his own swing early, not like he was knocked down but more like he was aiming for dirt, then he flops on his side. It's hard to tell because of the angle but it doesn't look to me like he was actually going straight in cause the bamboo stick seems to be to the side of Serregen when it hits the dirt. Or maybe he twisted slightly as he went down, looked like if Joko kept the stick on target he could have hit the guy even as he went down. Hmm, I was thinking he was aiming for the head, but maybe Joko was (as per protocol??) aiming for the leg. That makes the offness of the swing make a little more sense to me.

Randi didn't come out and say it but it does sound to me like YB passed a preliminary test, even if Randi isn't completely happy with how the test was handled.

Lord Kenneth

25th September 2003, 06:11 PM

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=wand

Yes, by most definitions a bamboo wand would be a small bamboo stick, not what they were holding.

They clearly did not pass the preliminary. It looks very much like he either fell intentionally or was pushed-- I'm guessing pushed because someone who looks like they are wearing black comes from the side and knocked him down.

If you ask me, it looks very staged and phony.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

25th September 2003, 07:38 PM

Uneasy said:It's too bad jref is going to loose the million.

First let me move my mouse just a little bit...WAAAAAAOOOOAAH!

Yeah, yellow bamboo is going to take the money.

Just a sec, I have to blow my nose.... WAAAAAAOOOOAAH!
OW! I hurt myself.

About supper time, I better walk into the kitchen and put the kettle on.... WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOAAH!

Gotta go now. I just rammed my nose into a door frame and I have to staunch the bleeding.

WAAAAAAOOOOAAH!
I laughed so hard at this that I fell right down. Really. Smackdown!

~~ Paul

Zep

25th September 2003, 07:46 PM

I have just watched that video for the dozenth time TRYING DESPERATELY to see ANY reality involved.

:roll: :roll: :roll: {wipes tears of laughter from eyes, lever myself from floor where I have collapsed helpless with laughter}

What a truly apalling and singular joke of an acting job! I don't think I've seen such an awful case of bad acting since Elvis in "Girl Happy"!

Have a look at him when he is lying on the ground - twitching like he's been electrified or something! Oh my!! {falls down again, laughing some more} :roll: :roll: :roll:

*snort* hee hee hee! {must get a drink now...}

Clancie

25th September 2003, 10:06 PM

From James Randi (pg. 2 this thread)...

Just recall that my protocol required that Mr. Joko Tri simply walk up and "tap" their "superman" Nyoman Serengen on the leg with a small bamboo stick, which was not the protocol followed
"My protocol"? :confused:

I thought the protocol had to be mutually agreed upon.

The whole description of this "test" is so incredibly sloppy (including the dubious credibility of the guy responsible for doing the test for JREF)...really, it boggles the mind!

No wonder the documentation of these preliminary challenges is so lacking. :confused:

LeFevre

25th September 2003, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Clancie

"My protocol"? :confused:

I thought the protocol had to be mutually agreed upon.

The whole description of this "test" is so incredibly sloppy (including the dubious credibility of the guy responsible for doing the test for JREF)...really, it boggles the mind!

No wonder the documentation of these preliminary challenges is so lacking. :confused:
Clancie, what would you call one party's "protocol" in a multi-party exchange? Randi's viewpoint and the controls that he (JREF) wants to put onto a test are "his protocols". The other party in this soon to be agreed upon test can either accept his protocols, talk about different protocols, or not accept them. If they dont accept them, then the 2 groups are not in agreement.

I agree that documentation is lacking and that it would be great if there were documentation.

MemeHacker

26th September 2003, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=wand

Yes, by most definitions a bamboo wand would be a small bamboo stick, not what they were holding.

I agree but "most" is not the same as "all". More improtantly, Randi is saying "recall my protocol" and when even he can't recall the protocol accurately. "SMALL" bamboo stick is different than bamboo wand which could be interpreted more loosely. Certainly you noticed "small stick" was not the definition at dictionary.com and I learned myself the only specific length referenced there for wands is apparently 6ft ;). To show how loosely the word "wand" could be interpreted consider that 2nd defintion at dictionary.com for "wand" says "scepter", the first definition for "scepter" says "staff". I think what Joko used could be fairly called a staff . . .

But does it matter at all if the how long the stick was anyways???

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth
They clearly did not pass the preliminary. It looks very much like he either fell intentionally or was pushed-- I'm guessing pushed because someone who looks like they are wearing black comes from the side and knocked him down.

I really can't see the person in black pushing him that you are talking about. I see a guy pushing him in black about as much as I see the quantum flux ki forcefield . . .
[ ok, I enlarged the vid and went through it frame by frame. there is an odd greyish streak behind Joko right as starts to fall.I'm not sure at all what is. At first it looked just like something in the bakcground reflecting funny as the camera panned to follow the action but it seems to sort of follow the begginning of Joko's fall down (3 frames all towards the end of the first second). Looking closely I really don't think it's a person pushing him, but it obviously can't be quantum flux ki forcefield either. Cause the forcefield would half to be in front of him of course . :D )

A "pusher" wouldn't explain Joko's claim of "dizziness" and the weird way he stays down plus he had witnesses and Joko has said the bad lighting was his fault so it seems like even if he was pushed Joko would have had to been in cahoots with YB, so why not just have him pretend to fall?

As far as passing the test: one of the requirements of the million dollar challenege is that results need to be obvious.

"All tests must be designed in such a way that the results are self-evident, and no judging process is required."
http://www.randi.org/research/challenge.html

Regardless of any speculation it is obvious that the YB guy wasn't hit by JREF represenative with a stick so the self-evident result is YB passes.

Randi may now engage in legalese speek to avoid calling that THE preliminary test but since the YB filed a claim (1), YB and JREF agreed to a protocol (2)and YB passed according to the protocol (3) it seems pretty straightforward to me.

I think the JREF may legitimately (VERY) seriously question the credibility of Joko Tri at this point, but the reliance upon one individual was a flaw in the protocol that Randi agreed to. He can't back out of it now, he should focus on making the final test completely trustworthy (and videotaped with better lighting :) ).

The whole point of the million dollar challenge is to tell psychics to demonstate there skills or STFU. Now YB passes the first test and is "demanding" Randi come to Bali. Anyone see the odd inversion there? YB is aggresively challenging JREF and Randi is stalling, why not just goto Bali and whack the guy himself?

RPG Advocate

26th September 2003, 12:48 AM

I have to agree that if Yellow Bamboo has followed all the steps for filing a claim up to this point, then this should be considered a pass on the preliminary test. If not, then it shouldn't. While I understand the sentiment that it would be sort of a cheap pass, the alternative is legally pernicious.

What I wonder is why the camera was zoomed in so far. It's difficult to see what's happening around Mr. Tri. Without the benefit of knowing what was going on off-camera, it is much easier for YB to claim that they used their "paranormal powerz!" to knock him down. Ideally, there should be multiple cameras filming from different angles.

Zep

26th September 2003, 01:12 AM

So MUCH analysis for such a PALTRY piece of evidence! I don't mean that it is just 12 secs long, but that it is so obviously a piece of really poor theatre. If I may say so, it's positively cartoonish in its sheer childish amateurism.

As I am usually sceptical of such twaddle, I pay attention to the details and apply such guiding principles as Occam's Razor and "common sense". And what do I find that accurately describes what we have seen so far?

Answer: A blatantly childish attempt to emulate a single scene from kung-fu movie using an el cheapo video camera. Nothing more! Children aged in single digits can create better movies than this, and often do. There's no science, no supernatural powers, not even a decent plotline! Certainly no attempt to show the complete story in detail.

Sheesh! It's KRAP! Don't you get it??? :rolleyes:

T'ai Chi

26th September 2003, 01:57 AM

Several things from this short video clip stick out to me:

1. if there are other people running with you and falling down, that might be enough to make you fall down to, especially if there are other pressures (a large group of watchers, a reporter, poor stopping ability from the sand(?), not having shoes on for traction, other people(s) running behind you, barking dog or gulls(?), ocean waves(?), someone yelling at you, doing a hard to stop overhead strike, running with the staff first extended behind you then rapidly bringing it infront of you, and bright light shining on you at night(?)).

2. the strike that the man tried to give with the staff was a powerful two-handed overhead strike. These are the type of strikes that you use to hit somebody in the head, not to merely tap them. I would think that someone wouldn't want to hit anyone with one of these strikes. To tap someone, I'd want to use a side-strike to the lower part of the body (lower than the neck) or a light thrust. Falling down to the ground corresponds to the natural movement of such an overhead strike. In fact, getting low to the ground is the natural endpoint of such a strike.

3. it is difficult to tell just how many people, total, are rushing the master. There are definitely two people. It is impossible to tell if there are any more behind or to the right of these two.

4. it doesn't appear that the attacker's angle to the master changed throughout the video. That is, it appears the attacker was running in a straight line the whole time, but in a line that was to the left of the master. I noticed this because it seems that the attacker could have reached the master at the end given the length of staff that he had, had he been on line. Could the person on the attackers left have caused (indirectly) the attacker to unconsciously move to his right, thus being not aligned with the master?

5. the attacker fell down forward, but it appears that the person running on the attacker's left fell down backwards (based on ending position of this person's feet). How could the same force applied at the same time from the same source knock people down in completely different ways?

6. it looks like the attacker, after he is on the ground and on his back, twitches a few times with his left shoulder. It would be interesting to see the reactions of the other people.

7. I thought it was kind of odd that the attacker, from what I can tell, didn't let out his own kiai (a yell and quick exhale that some martial artists give when they strike/block powerfully).

8. Do we know the mantra that he was required to learn?

nwmadden

26th September 2003, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by Zep
I have just watched that video for the dozenth time TRYING DESPERATELY to see ANY reality involved.

Have a look at him when he is lying on the ground - twitching like he's been electrified or something! Oh my!! {falls down again, laughing some more} :roll: :roll: :roll:

I agree mate, the rolling on the ground reminds of kids playing cowboys and indians, or maybe the Sheriff of Nottingham's men in Erol Flynn's Robin Hood film, very overacted!

Neil

nwmadden

26th September 2003, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by Clancie

The whole description of this "test" is so incredibly sloppy (including the dubious credibility of the guy responsible for doing the test for JREF)...really, it boggles the mind!

I agree, it's a terrible state of affairs!

All you need to do is sit down one afternoon, and dream up a kooky paranormal ability. Shoot some dodgey video clips, register an internet domain, get the website online, post some fake testimonials in newsgroups, etc etc. I'm not saying YB case is as simple as this, but it's not far off. The end result this whole community is thrown into debate and a lot of time is wasted.

Of course the big culprit in creating this hoo har is the throw away comment from Randi in his weekly commentry.

Neil

TheBoyPaj

26th September 2003, 03:24 AM

I guess it depends on what sort of rules have been placed on this preliminary test. Was the protocol first described by Randi agreed by both parties? Did it say anything about there being other people around? What assurances were there that the subject would not be hypnotised? We don't know, but Mr Randi does. It seems odd that the "self evident" part of it should simply be the inability of the attacker to hit the subject with the stick when there are many ways of making this happen that do not involve paranormal abilities (the subject could be a really fast sprinter for a start!)

If the protocol was broken then the test is null and void. If these possibilities were not precluded in the protocol and the JREF gave no provision for decent video evidence then it's a slap on the wrist for the JREF for not being thorough and a warning to close the loopholes for the real thing.

fsol

26th September 2003, 03:34 AM

It reminds me of Derren Brown knocking the wind out of a martial artist without touching him on one of his shows. First of all he did it in front of him, and then he did it behind him so the martial artist wouldn't pick up visual clues. The result both times? The martial artist appeared winded. No magic powers involved.

nwmadden

26th September 2003, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by fsol
It reminds me of Derren Brown knocking the wind out of a martial artist without touching him on one of his shows. First of all he did it in front of him, and then he did it behind him so the martial artist wouldn't pick up visual clues. The result both times? The martial artist appeared winded. No magic powers involved.

This makes me think of Bruce Lee.

(Bare with me, there is a tenuous connection to YB somewhere in here!)

On a recent documentary they described how he upset the established Chinese kung fu world when he started to disregard a lot of the old pointless, fanciful and sometimes plain silly and ineffective kung fu techniques by beginning to form his own more pragmatic martial arts system, which eventually became Jeet Kune Do. Angered at this disregard, the Hong Kong kung fu establishment made a deal with him:

"If you can beat our best traditional kung fu man in a fair fight." they told him, "You can teach your martial arts however you want". So their best man fly's out to the USA, where Bruce promptly *kicks* the guys butt. I mention this to re-enforce how good of a martial artist he was, and not just a movie star.

Bruce jogged and trained almost every day of this adult life, he looked after his diet, and physically he represented the pinnacle of what can be achieved by martial arts.

But that really is just half of the story. The guy was also an intellectual. Lecturing in Philosophy at university, he was extremely well read. He had an extensive library on various subjects, and he had read and re-read, took on board or dismissed as irrelevant virtually every oriental martial arts and philosophy book he could lay his hands on.

So now I'm getting to my point but before I do, I need to mention that you can not dismiss Bruce Lee as being a 'westerner' and therefore unable to comprehend the eastern mind-set needed for belief in action at a distance such as the YB claims: as his roots and thoughts lay firmly in the orient. I say this because from what I've read on the YB threads, this criticism is pointed at us skeptics: "We are westerners therefore can't ever understand the YB claims & beliefs". Bruce ate, drank and breathed all martial arts practice, history and eastern philosophy, so that argument can't apply to him.

So here's my point: When Bruce was show casing his supreme martial arts skills on 70’s TV shows i.e. knocking over grown men with a 1 inch punches, kicking in two a 1 inch thick freely dangling plank of wood, etc etc, were there any references or claims about being able to do this without making contact with the subject? Of course not.

Oops.

Even with decades of training and research he some how missed the amazing fact that you could go to a few YB Full Moon ceremonies and suddenly be able to injure people without even making contact with them? Not likely, the *truth* is that the greatest martial artist ever (IMO) knew the limitations of martial arts, the world we live in and the limits of human abilities just as well as we skeptics do. And he accepted these limitations.

The YB claims can not work. Demonstrations and examination of the ability for the human mind to effect physical bodies at a distance by thoughts alone have always failed during objective testing, and it'll take a lot more than these silly claims for the rational world to forget this.

These powers do not exist apart from on movie screens, video games and the pages of comic books and that is where they rightly belong.

While big kudos obviously goes to any martial art claiming things like this, and no doubt it will get them a lot of new-age subscribers, aswell as subscriptions from gullible martial artists desperate to get 'one up' on their opponants. These claims are pure fantasy and I can't wait to see them shown for what they really are.

Oh if things were different: I can think of nothing more in the world that I'd rather watch than Bruce Lee facing off to a YB master. If I owned $1million myself I'd bet that no spooky action at a distance showed up in that very quick and decisive fight.

Neil

arcticpenguin

26th September 2003, 08:16 AM

OK, I watched the video.

First off, it was a very bad video; very bad lighting.

Second, the attackee did not stop the blow. The attacker swung a pretty good blow at the mat, and gave it a good thwack. The atackee took a half-step to the side. This is pretty common in martial arts that stay in the dojo and do not concern themselves with real world fighting, where the students are taught to go along, consciously or not. How convenient for the attacker that despite being knocked unconscious to the point of twitching, he was able to roll face-up after collapsing, for comfort and for the camera.

My impression is that the attacker is in on the stunt.

I would like to hear more details of communication between the tester and Randi.

fsol

26th September 2003, 08:38 AM

Oh if things were different: I can think of nothing more in the world that I'd rather watch than Bruce Lee facing off to a YB master. If I owned $1million myself I'd bet that no spooky action at a distance showed up in that very quick and decisive fight.

That would be great :)

Lord Kenneth

26th September 2003, 03:15 PM

Yes, either he was pushed or not (looks like he could have been pushed on my computer, it's dark so it's hard to see), or he could have been acting.

It seems like Randi may have been duped, anyways. It appears that this attacker is in on it, either way. If the attacker is an independent tester then why he is wearing the Yellow Bamboo uniform?

I'm confused. This is very odd.

TheBoyPaj

26th September 2003, 03:44 PM

The reason for the yellow shirt is that it was one of the stipulations of the test. The guinea pig had to join the group and be initiated.

Zep

26th September 2003, 04:44 PM

nwmadden, the Bamboonies would stand little chance against ANY proponent of martial arts from anywhere in the world, let alone Bruce Lee. I'm pretty certain that a local silat learner could deal with one of these guys fairly promptly. And I expect that even I, with my still-learning-karate brown belt, would have little trouble walking up to the YB "master" and giving him a good slapping for being so silly. Oh, I may fall down on the way, but it would only be from helpless laughter!

Clancie

26th September 2003, 06:48 PM

Posted by LeFevre

Clancie, what would you call one party's "protocol" in a multi-party exchange?
LeFevre,
I think we have a difference over whether Randi is proposing a protocol or repeating one from an existing agreement (I favor the latter interpretation of his comments).

If they've already been agreed to, "the" protocol sounds good as opposed to the one-sided "my" protocol.
Posted by LeFevre

The other party in this soon to be agreed upon test can either accept his protocols, talk about different protocols, or not accept them. If they dont accept them, then the 2 groups are not in agreement.
Well, as I read the "Commentary", this is already beyond the application/protocol stage and into the "here's-the-JREF-rep-to-take-a-look-at-what-you-can-do" preliminary testing stage.

Actually, reading "Commentary" I really feel that I owe Randi an apology, if this is (as it seems) the preliminary test and JREF rightly honors it as such.

After reading the Sylvia Challenge, I always thought Randi had a bit of "flim-flam" up his sleeve with the prelims, particularly in intentionally proposing protocol that did not rule out the possiblity of collusion (a huge design flaw in the "SC", imo, but I guess that's neither here nor there...)

Instead, with YB, Randi seems to have been a bit scammed himself, if this is actually the test. The JREF test giver seems quite unknown to Randi personally, not particularly credible, and the circumstances of the test itself (including becoming a member of Yellow Bamboo, fasting the day before, etc. etc.) create lots of possibilities for "things not being as they seem" on the part of Yellow Bamboo when the test is given and "reported results" achieved.

I never pictured Randi as ever being on the receiving end of a bit of flim-flam, but from the bit we know about the YB test, so far at least, it appears he very well may be. :eek:

wert

26th September 2003, 07:22 PM

Yellow Bamboo's claim -> http://www.kingstalk.com/html/emoticons/bsflag.gif

T'ai Chi

27th September 2003, 12:23 AM

Thanks wert, now I want to play Super Mario Bros. the whole day.
:)

CFLarsen

27th September 2003, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
Thanks wert, now I want to play Super Mario Bros. the whole day.
:)
Perhaps you should work on that critique of yours instead?

Can we also see those studies that you consider evidence of psi? (8th time you are asked, you know)

T'ai Chi

27th September 2003, 02:21 AM

nwmadden,

So their best man fly's out to the USA, where Bruce promptly *kicks* the guys butt.

Who was their "best man"?

These powers do not exist apart from on movie screens, video games and the pages of comic books and that is where they rightly belong.

Hey, don't forget in my dreams. :) :) :)

princhester

27th September 2003, 06:10 AM

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
I laughed so hard at this that I fell right down. Really. Smackdown!

Uneasy wins the million! Knocked Paul down without touching him!

princhester

27th September 2003, 06:35 AM

To my mind there are two possibilities or maybe they were combined. Firstly, I think the very bright shirts and black trousers, the dark and the dark background are potentially significant and carefully thought through. The fact is, a guy dressed in black could have been doing anything around Joko's lower half in that video. The black on black of Joko's pants and the background mean that you just wouldn't see, particularly given how poor the video. It is classic blackout theatre technique to highlight what you want the audience to see with bright colours, while making everything else black.

Secondly:

Originally posted by MemeHacker
But does it matter at all if the how long the stick was anyways???

This matters a lot. If Joko had done as instructed and just walked up to the master with a little wand (stick, whatever), there would have been much less opportunity for skulduggery.

Because Joko instead rushes the master, waving a great big pole, there is much more room for the video to ("oops") be rushed and indecisive and cut off the edge of the frame.

Also, if you assume Joko was not in on the stunt, the rush and the throwing forward of the large pole gives the perfect opportunity to give him gentle push on the arse at just the right moment, as he throws his weight forward. His attention is on the pole and there is a loud yell. Perfect cover to occupy Joko's senses and stop him noticing the gentle shove when he's off balance.

By the way, to those of you who have said it was only dark because Joko was late, read again this time more carefully. It was "the journalist" who made them so late it was dark. And who knows if he really was a journalist. And who knows if his lateness wasn't planned.

When I see a daylight high quality video from several angles of a guy whose independance is unquestionable who falls down after simply walking up to the master to give him a tap , I'll be interested.

princhester

27th September 2003, 06:45 AM

Holy dooley I can't believe no one (including myself) has noticed this earlier (or perhaps they have and I've missed it). Check out this para from Joko's explanation (emphasis added):

I then felt a small push against me which made
me quite dizzy and knocked me to the ground.
The others behind me also were knocked to the
ground. But they were behind me not in front
of me. At no time nobody or nothing touched me

Nothing "touched me" but I "felt a push" and "was knocked to the ground". Anyone care to explain to me how that isn't a total contradiction?

All Joko seems to be saying (when you analyse it) is that he didn't see the guy that pushed him to the ground! And when
you see the dark conditions, and consider how obviously well occupied Joko was with rushing and swinging while facing forward, his failure to see the pusher is not hard to understand at all.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

Weezbo

27th September 2003, 09:58 AM

Inasmuch as Randi has a standard protocol for the prelims, it seems to include a demonstration of the supposed ability without any sort of controls followed up by an attempt to perform the ability with controls in place.

This "test" appears to have had no controls at all. Near as I can tell, there was no followup.

I'd like to examine the bamboo staff, too. Several people have noted that the guy in the video appears to have been affected by electricity. Seems to me that that staff could have been rigged in some way to have a "stun gun" effect.

Blue Monk

27th September 2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by Weezbo
Inasmuch as Randi has a standard protocol for the prelims, it seems to include a demonstration of the supposed ability without any sort of controls followed up by an attempt to perform the ability with controls in place.

This "test" appears to have had no controls at all. Near as I can tell, there was no followup.

I'd like to examine the bamboo staff, too. Several people have noted that the guy in the video appears to have been affected by electricity. Seems to me that that staff could have been rigged in some way to have a "stun gun" effect.

Not only were there no controls but they did not even follow the agreed upon protocol.

In enlargements of the stills it 'looks' very much like he is kicked from behind but there is something that enters the frame just before he goes down.

Despite my earlier belief that he may have been kicked I tend to agree that the stun gun theory is far more likely and far more in agreement with the subject's account.

arcticpenguin

27th September 2003, 08:23 PM

Hey guys, here's proof that yellowbamboo is for real, he just logged in:

UnrepentantSinner

28th September 2003, 12:28 AM

I know an entire group of people who number in the thousands that can make people prostrate just by yelling at them. They have various names for their job description, but their job position always includes the word "sergeant."

Beckett

28th September 2003, 03:50 PM

:clap: First time post!

I've watched the film many, many times now and here are my thoughts.

First, judging by the brief article in this week's commentary, it seems that Randi is both unimpressed by the video, and is also still trying to obtain information from Joko Tri. These reasons may be why the Yellow Bamboo has had little space devoted to it in the past two weeks of the JREF Commentary. With what's offered, I'm far from impressed.

As others have observed, and is simply quite obvious, the area where the film was shot was quite dark. This should not have been so. Why was the demonstration (or perhaps test, but I prefer to call it a demonstration) to take place at such a late hour? at such a remote area that headlights must be used to provide lighting? I realize that Yoko was late initially, and a reporter, too was late afterward, yet I wonder if both had arrived on time, would the demo have begun promptly or perhaps have been stalled til dark? Why wasn't the demo simply planned for early morning or afternoon hours? Or, why was no one prepared with better sources of lighting if the need became present? Why not perform the demonstration at a more well lit location with similar terrain? I think many of us suspect what the reasons for this are or perhaps I'm making something out of nothing. On to my next observation...

As Joko is running towards the YB "master", long bamboo in hand, two, perhaps three others to his left (one appears to be wearing blue jeans and dark shoes, the other wearing dark, quite possibly black, pants and in bare feet) flip backward. Joko, actually completes his swing forward and downward before collapsing (which, I think, should have been considered a failed attempt by the YB master - had Joko truly committed to tapping the YB master he would have redirected his focus and swing, or had the YB master remained in his position, he would have been the one to fall to the ground... possibly dead - hardly a tap by the looks of it, by the way!). The difference in these reactions bring up some questions. Why did those behind Joko fall swiftly (and prematurely) backward as if they had been struck by a log in the chest? Why not pause and collapse forward as Joko had done? Less showy I'd say. This leads me to think that Joko may not be a confederate himself, but an innocent guest. However, I could argue that by Joko collapsing slowly forward, he can direct the bamboo stick safely down (Had he flipped backward like the others, bamboo in hand [or flung into the air itself], it might have seriously hurt someone nearby, including Joko himself). Then again, had he been an accomplice to a scam, he could very well have acted as the others did, clutching the bamboo tightly in front of him to prevent it from striking anyone. This could have perhaps worked safely, so again, because he did not do this, I think he may very well not have been an accomplice.

As to what caused Joko to collapse to the ground, I simply don't know. I don't think he was kicked, however. This appears to be an illusion of sorts created by the person (with bare feet) near Joko flipping backward. In his post at rec.martial.arts Joko makes no mention of being struck from behind, which I think would have made him quite suspicious. He even seems to allude to being struck from the front in that post, saying, and this is not verbatim, that everyone was behind him when he was "struck", not in front of him. In any case, he appears to be convulsing after the fall, indicating to me that he suffered some type of shock as others suggested. With this in mind, I too wonder if the bamboo doesn't play an integral role in this demonstration. Is it hiding something? Is the purpose of his swing not to hit the YB master, but to make contact with something on the ground, if not the ground itself? A stun gun of some kind might leave identifiable marks so I'm left thinking some other method was used to deliver the shock (other than paranormal, of course).

So many questions raised! The mind boggles! Say, Randi, how about enlightening us with your superior knowledge?

One last observation: The bamboo used is green! There's not even truth in their name! At least spray paint the thing in advance next time or redub yourself the Green Bamboo Association.

arcticpenguin

28th September 2003, 04:02 PM

Welcome to the forum.

ImpyTimpy

28th September 2003, 04:30 PM

I don't think Joko was in on it but everyone else has pegged the way it was done. I do think that the journalist was in on it however. Also the whole thing was staged in order to ensure the area would be shrouded in darkness.

From the google usenet postings:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl601992025d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=15e8e9b.0309152017.3b138591%40posting.google. com&rnum=1

It happened on Sunday 14 September. We
(my friend Ekko and I)
were a litle late to get to the meeting point
(which was a 2 hour drive from
where I was staying) but not intentionally.

Notice they YB picked a meeting point (not the actual demonstration site) that is 2 hours away. It wouldn't surprise me that they also picked one that would be difficult to get to. So they're already buying thesmelves some time here.

Once I got to he meeting point we had to drive
about 30 minute to the beach for the demonstration.
Once we got to the beach we still had to wait for
the journalist.
Why didn't they just meet at the beach? So here we have 2 hours and 30 minutes introduced delay. It gets better though, they now have to wait for the journalist...

So by the time the journalist arrived the light
was fading fast so we lined up the autos with high
beams so we could get enough light to video it.

Perfect, the YB introduces the initial delay and the "journalist" adds a bit more. The lighting is crap and nothing can really be seeing in the video or by the people there. They could've just showed floating trumpets instead.

Hannibal

24th October 2003, 07:09 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by T'ai Chi
nwmadden,

Who was their "best man"?

[/b]

I think this refers to "Wong Jak Man" (I may have misspelled the name). He came to challenge Bruce and then tried to back down when Bruce accepted.

Contrary to popular belief this was NOT a great fight. They assumed postures and Bruce crashed through his guard. Wong Jak Man then proceeded to run around the room until Bruce finally caught him and made him quit.

It was this fight that is believed to have led Bruce to the principle of taking useful elements from other styles since his Wing Chun training had no response to man running away. Bruce was also so knackered having chased the blke around the room for so long he started to cross train into other disciplines (running, weights etc..)

I once caused a man to fall over without touching him in a demo I did in class. As they throw a big heavy shot you scream at them and step in. The surprise caused his balance to go and he fell flat on his butt. It was to demonstarte the usefulness of surprise in combat rather than suggest a YB type special power.

I notice YB require the person testing to visit their home turf. If I knew I had a million riding on it I would be out of my backyard like a shot to show you what I could do. The fact they don't shows they are not only liars but cowards.