another resounding success story for socialized medicine

[Nie Trink Wasser]

shame on her for not living another 8 hours to get the operation to save her life.



http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=64387&command=displayContent&sourceNode=63914&contentPK=7050214

A Son says he is disgusted that his late mother was forced to wait eight "traumatic" hours for an ambulance.

Stephen Brown even managed to fly back from a Spanish holiday and get to the hospital before his eighty-six-year-old mum, Clarice Burgin.

[Quasi]

Do most people take August off in the UK as many other european countries do? I think this was a similar problem that led to thousands of elderly french deaths because most ER service people were on holiday.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
shame on her for not living another 8 hours to get the operation to save her life.




So are you claiming the following:

1) England has socialized medicine

2) Something bad happened in England

Therefore

3) Socialized Medicine is Bad.

Also, for your enjoyment, the lyrics to "911 is a Joke" by Public Enemy. Since no British rap groups have recorded a similar song, this proves that the American system is worse than the British system.

Hit me
Going going gone
Now I dialed 911 a long time ago
Don't you see how late they're reactin'
They only come and they come when they wanna
So get the morgue embalm the goner
They don't care 'cause they stay paid anyway
They teach ya like an ace they can't be betrayed
I know you stumble with no use people
If your life is on the line they you're dead today
Late comings with the late comin' stretcher
That's a body bag in disguise y'all betcha
I call 'em body snatchers quick they come to fetch ya?
With an autopsy ambulance just to dissect ya
They are the kings 'cause they swing amputation
Lose your arms, your legs to them it's compilation
I can prove it to you watch the rotation
It all adds up to a funky situation
So get up get, get get down
911 is a joke in yo town
Get up, get, get, get down
Late 911 wears the late crown

911 is a joke

Everyday they don't never come correct
You can ask my man right here with the broken neck
He's a witness to the job never bein' done
He would've been in full in 8 9-11
Was a joke 'cause they always jokin'
They the token to your life when it's croakin'
They need to be in a pawn shop on a
911 is a joke we don't want 'em
I call a cab 'cause a cab will come quicker
The doctors huddle up and call a flea flicker
The reason that I say that 'cause they
Flick you off like fleas
They be laughin' at ya while you're crawlin' on your knees
And to the strength so go the length
Thinkin' you are first when you really are tenth
You better wake up and smell the real flavor
Cause 911 is a fake life saver

So get up, get, get get down
911 is a joke in yo town
Get up, get, get, get down
Late 911 wears the late crown

Ow, ow 911 is a joke

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Suddenly


So are you claiming the following:

1) England has socialized medicine

2) Something bad happened in England

Therefore

3) Socialized Medicine is Bad.

Also, for your enjoyment, the lyrics to "911 is a Joke" by Public Enemy. Since no British rap groups have recorded a similar song, this proves that the American system is worse than the British system.

Hit me
Going going gone
Now I dialed 911 a long time ago
Don't you see how late they're reactin'
They only come and they come when they wanna
So get the morgue embalm the goner
They don't care 'cause they stay paid anyway
They teach ya like an ace they can't be betrayed
I know you stumble with no use people
If your life is on the line they you're dead today
Late comings with the late comin' stretcher
That's a body bag in disguise y'all betcha
I call 'em body snatchers quick they come to fetch ya?
With an autopsy ambulance just to dissect ya
They are the kings 'cause they swing amputation
Lose your arms, your legs to them it's compilation
I can prove it to you watch the rotation
It all adds up to a funky situation
So get up get, get get down
911 is a joke in yo town
Get up, get, get, get down
Late 911 wears the late crown

911 is a joke

Everyday they don't never come correct
You can ask my man right here with the broken neck
He's a witness to the job never bein' done
He would've been in full in 8 9-11
Was a joke 'cause they always jokin'
They the token to your life when it's croakin'
They need to be in a pawn shop on a
911 is a joke we don't want 'em
I call a cab 'cause a cab will come quicker
The doctors huddle up and call a flea flicker
The reason that I say that 'cause they
Flick you off like fleas
They be laughin' at ya while you're crawlin' on your knees
And to the strength so go the length
Thinkin' you are first when you really are tenth
You better wake up and smell the real flavor
Cause 911 is a fake life saver

So get up, get, get get down
911 is a joke in yo town
Get up, get, get, get down
Late 911 wears the late crown

Ow, ow 911 is a joke



our system isn't perfect and their system isnt perfect.

this is merely one example of how theirs is failing. If that offends you and you don't want to discuss what is wrong with their system, fine, but it doesn't cover up what's happening to people there.

[Cleon]

This happens in the US, too. Blaming this on "socialized medicine" is, well, premature.

The fact that this was reported in a newspaper shows that it's an unusual occurrence.

Oh, and just to point something out--she didn't die until the next day, well after she got to the hospital. (No, of course it doesn't make this ok--or anything close to acceptable--but the comment about "shame on her for not living another eight hours" was factually incorrect.)

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser




our system isn't perfect and their system isnt perfect.

this is merely one example of how theirs is failing. If that offends you and you don't want to discuss what is wrong with their system, fine, but it doesn't cover up what's happening to people there.

A news report of a single problem isn't "discussing" anything. It is far from clear that the problem was even related to the type of system they have, so it doesn't even show their system is failing.

A lot of stupid things happen because there are people that fixate on individual problems and blame entire systems and either implicitly or explicitly suggest solutions on a grand scale, without even bothering to look closely at the incident to see if their criticism and/or solution is even relevant to the problem stated.

Then sometimes when this gets pointed out they respond with an accusation that the questioner "must not care about the problem." :hb:

[originalgagster]

The UK health system is failing in a number of ways. Not because of socialist health care policies, but because of decades of chronic underfunding by right wing government.

[Quasi]

One of the major problems with socialized medicine is that it requires the younger population to support the older- in a cold, unemotional way the young must spend billions of tax dollars on a project which yields no lasting results- the elderly die anyway. Further, and I have said this again and again, you cannot have universal healthcare without some sort of "step" program like driving. Abuse your body, and pay more. Smokers and the morbidly obese should have to pay many times that of healthier lifestyle patients. And before anyone gets too defensive, because I am male, I pay a lot more for auto insurance, which is legalized discrimination. I do not see the big problem here.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by Cleon
This happens in the US, too. Blaming this on "socialized medicine" is, well, premature.

The fact that this was reported in a newspaper shows that it's an unusual occurrence.

Oh, and just to point something out--she didn't die until the next day, well after she got to the hospital. (No, of course it doesn't make this ok--or anything close to acceptable--but the comment about "shame on her for not living another eight hours" was factually incorrect.)

Yes, in fact they have run several specials about how people have been dying in America becuase ambulences get rerouted due to hospitals being over capacity, which was caused from deregulation and the attempt by hosptils to reduce overhead of extra beds to increase profitablity.

So in other words hosptials, now, to increase profit margins, don't maintain large numbers of extra emergency facilities because they are costly to maintain, but because of that its normal for hospitals to go over capacity a few timesw every month and when that happens, then people die. This was not an issue 20 years ago when the hosptials were more state run.

[plindboe]

What does a single case prove? Absolutely nothing. And how can you even know that this happened because of socialized medicine? Find some statistics instead, that compare countries that have socialized medicine with countries that haven't. Otherwise what's the point?

[shuize]

The fact that it takes an ambulance 8 hours to arrive is pretty lame. But what the hell was the family doing on the phone for those 8 hours instead of packing mum in the boot and driving her to hospital themselves? If they couldn't get there, they could've called a neighbor or even a taxi. Is there some requirement in U.K. that you have to wait for an ambulance once it's called?

[Theodore Kurita]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
shame on her for not living another 8 hours to get the operation to save her life.





This is not a great sign of a Socialistic Medical System Failing Nie.

This more or less is probably due to a lack of EMT's avaliable on that day....


That's all

[reprise]

Ambulances get re-routed here all time when emergency departments are overloaded. The usual reason why an emergency department is unable to take any additional patients is because they are waiting for people to whom they are providing acute care (ie, patients who have already been admitted) to be transferred to a ward. Lack of "available beds" in the wards has little to do with physical space and everything to do with staffing - at any given time there are only as many beds being used in the hospital as there are staff available to care for the patients (there could actually be 200 empty beds and still be none "available").

A more worrying trend here is ambulances getting stuck at hospitals for extended periods while they wait for the emergency department to take formal responsibility for their patients. The ambulance officers must continue to provide direct care to the patient until such time as they are formally the hospital's responsibility, and there have been a few instances lately where this process has taken several hours. This situation means there are less ambulances available to respond to emergency calls and waiting times for ambulance attendance increase.

On the one occasion when an ambulance was unable to respond to a call of mine within a reasonable period, I was immediately called back by a paramedic who advised me of the anticipated length of the delay and stayed on the line until the ambulance arrived.

Although our ambulance service is operated by the NSW Department of Health on a "fee for service" basis, many people qualify for exemption from the fees or are covered by direct or indirect subscription to the service and so will never have to pay a bill for using ambulance services. I suspect there's a high rate of non-payment of ambulance fees among those people who fall outside of these categories.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Quasi
One of the major problems with socialized medicine is that it requires the younger population to support the older- in a cold, unemotional way the young must spend billions of tax dollars on a project which yields no lasting results- the elderly die anyway. Further, and I have said this again and again, you cannot have universal healthcare without some sort of "step" program like driving. Abuse your body, and pay more. Smokers and the morbidly obese should have to pay many times that of healthier lifestyle patients. And before anyone gets too defensive, because I am male, I pay a lot more for auto insurance, which is legalized discrimination. I do not see the big problem here.

What would you suggest? Let those elderly die because their retirement pay is too small to afford treatment?
Two of the bigger parts of the money spent on socialized medicine end up as administration costs in the respective agencies, and as profits of the pharma industry whose lobby persistently stalled any attempt to stem the rapid rise of medicine prices. Actual Health costs (the money doctors see in the end) are an ever decreasing part of what is paid.

And males paying more for motor insurance is not discrimination, it is because statistically, males have costlier accidents.

[Dancing David]

More, what does this have to do with socialized medicine NTW.

Old ladies die of heart attacks while waiting in American ER's every year, why, because the triage system fails them.

People die in the Us every year waiting for the ambulance, becuase they live in rural community.

Sorry NTW, there is no merit to this one.

One star.

[Cain]

Originally posted by Nie Trink Wasser
shame on her for not living another 8 hours to get the operation to save her life.




You are an intellectual giant.

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Suddenly
Also, for your enjoyment, the lyrics to "911 is a Joke" by Public Enemy. Since no British rap groups have recorded a similar song, this proves that the American system is worse than the British system.
I found out long ago that if you really need a cop to come NOW, just tell the 911 operator there's a gun involved. The place will be swarming w/ cops in seconds. Then when no gun is found, well, you thought he had a gun.

[Suddenly]

Originally posted by WildCat

I found out long ago that if you really need a cop to come NOW, just tell the 911 operator there's a gun involved. The place will be swarming w/ cops in seconds. Then when no gun is found, well, you thought he had a gun.

I live a few miles from the state pen. I bet they'd get to my house in a hurry if I said I thought I saw someone in a tan jumpsuit.

[tedly]

Originally posted by Quasi
One of the major problems with socialized medicine is that it requires the younger population to support the older- in a cold, unemotional way the young must spend billions of tax dollars on a project which yields no lasting results- the elderly die anyway. Further, and I have said this again and again, you cannot have universal healthcare without some sort of "step" program like driving. Abuse your body, and pay more. Smokers and the morbidly obese should have to pay many times that of healthier lifestyle patients. And before anyone gets too defensive, because I am male, I pay a lot more for auto insurance, which is legalized discrimination. I do not see the big problem here.

One of the major problems with life is, that once you get past childbirth, most of us are amazingly healthy and go on living without costing the health care system much. Then we hit a couple of high cost years, and die. Modern medicine does not change the death rate; with the reported exception of one Nazarene, it's always been one to a customer.

So yes, young workers do support an unreasonable share of the cost, but they'll get their turn all too soon. And right now they benefit from the hospitals and trained doctors our parents paid for.

As far as those last years go, if you smoke, pray for lung cancer. It's messy, but fairly quick. Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease will have you gasping for years. Pain sucks. Sucking is painful.

It's not clear, in spite of our love of blaming disease on "lifestyle choices" like obesity and smoking, that these folks actually cost us more than anyone else. Can the effects of obesity in our culture be isolated from deleterious effects of dieting?

There is of course one 'lifestyle choice' that correlates really well with poor health. Low socio-economic status. If you want to keep overall costs down, then sickness care has to be integrated with programs that reduce poverty. You can probably do this with some of the savings that accrue from eliminating the waste in for profit medicine.

I know I'm going to have to defend that last one. The basic marketing strategy of medicine is 'Your money or your life." Do you know how wierd it seems to someone from Soviet Kanuckistan driving through the States to see billboards advertising hospitals?