The challenge is coming to an end.

[Philip]

Randi announced in the January 4, 2008, SWIFT that the challenge will end in two years so that the money can be spent: http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/144/1/#i4

I'm dismayed and commented on the column. Isn't that against the donor's wishes?

[Damien Evans]

I'm going to assume this was the drastic announcement we'd been waiting for.

[arthwollipot]

Such a shame. We'll no longer be able to say to dowsers and astrologers "you can win a million dollars if you can demonstrate what you say you can do".

But it's Randi's money, and if he feels that he can put it to better use, then more power to him.

[a_unique_person]

Lets face it, no-ones ever going to win it. Although I have to admit, 15 minutes of that woman staring at me would have me pissing myself. I am assuming this is being done in consultation with the person putting the money up.

[RemieV]

Randi announced in the January 4, 2008, SWIFT that the challenge will end in two years so that the money can be spent: http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/144/1/#i4

I'm dismayed and and commented on on the column. Isn't that against the donor's wishes?

The donor is fully aware of the change and supports it.

Such a shame. We'll no longer be able to say to dowsers and astrologers "you can win a million dollars if you can demonstrate what you say you can do".

But it's Randi's money, and if he feels that he can put it to better use, then more power to him.

It is not actually Randi's money... the million dollars was donated to the JREF, not Randi himself.

[jimtron]

Isn't that against the donor's wishes?

What were the donor's wishes?

[arthwollipot]

It is not actually Randi's money... the million dollars was donated to the JREF, not Randi himself.Okay, I was under the impression that it was Randi's money. Is the donor anonymous, or can you tell us who it is?

[William Smith]

I can see why the JREF is going this way.

(I'll have snide comments after work when I had time to let this sink in.)

[Kimpatsu]

I feel it's a shame because it's been a fantastic way for me to browbeat woo-woos, but I can understand the imperative Randi feels because said woo-woos often claim that "Randi will rig the tests so that they fail". To date, this has always been a refusal to adhere to a double-blind protocol.
So, when's the massive $1 million blowout party?!;):D

[Philip]

The donor is fully aware of the change and supports it.

That's good that it wasn't done against the donor's wishes, but I still don't like it.

Will the money be put into investments with higher returns, or is it all going to be spent on various projects? What will be happen to the JREF if the money is all going to be spent? Is this part of a plan to eventually end the JREF upon Randi's retirement?

[pmckean]

Although I understand the JREFs decision, I think it's a great shame.

Unfortunately, every single potential claimant for the million dollars could now claim that the JREF will never award the cash as they're intending to utilise it themselves in 2010. And despite Randi's earnest protestations to the contrary, I think that's a difficult argument to conclusively refute.

The JREF now has a clear self-interest in ensuring that the money is not won. Whilst I am sure that the organisation has integrity, I think that this decision affects their perceived impartiality.

[Cuddles]

Although I understand the JREFs decision, I think it's a great shame.

Unfortunately, every single potential claimant for the million dollars could now claim that the JREF will never award the cash as they're intending to utilise it themselves in 2010. And despite Randi's earnest protestations to the contrary, I think that's a difficult argument to conclusively refute.

The JREF now has a clear self-interest in ensuring that the money is not won. Whilst I am sure that the organisation has integrity, I think that this decision affects their perceived impartiality.

I agree. It's understandable, but unfortunate. Although most of us trust the JREF to still play fair, there is now a clear bias that will only put people off from applying. I think it would be far better to stop the challenge now than to waste the next two years with a valid excuse to not to take it.

[JoeEllison]

Is James going to spend the money on hookers and coke? Because if he is, I'm going to start working on becoming his best friend... :D

[Big Les]

Maybe someone else can fill the role, challenge-wise? Is Criss Angel all talk?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Okay, I was under the impression that it was Randi's money. Is the donor anonymous, or can you tell us who it is?

I was told that it is not a name anyone would recognize. Just some rich guy.

[thatguywhojuggles]

If Randi retires, I nominate Robert Lancaster to take his place.

[danielk]

He's got the beard!

[thatguywhojuggles]

It's not a beard, it's a "woo catcher"

[Abdul Alhazred]

I predict the million will be spent defending JREF from frivolous lawsuits stemming from the withdrawal of the challenge.

[tkingdoll]

I'm pleased to hear this. The MDC was a gimmick and paranormal challenges date back in various incarnations, I believe, more than a hundred years. So, it is most definitely time to move on. Either find another, better gimmick or use the money for tangible, measurable work. I applaud JREF for using its assets for (hopefully!) the purposes of actual education in critical thinking, and not just as a prop for what usually turns out to be a bit of a pantomime. The latest test was severely lacking in dignity and 100% useless as a PR tool or indeed any sort of leverage whatsoever. And the press don't care about the MDC generally, so time to find another way to make a point.
Or, skip making points into the ether and start making a difference that can be measured.

With better PR, I think the MDC could have been more famous than it is, but that takes money and without releasing the million there obviously isn't any money, so...catch 22.

I look forward to seeing what the money will be used for.

[JoeEllison]

Maybe someone else can fill the role, challenge-wise? Is Criss Angel all talk?

If someone can teach Criss Angel to dress like an adult, maybe...

[paiute]

I am dismayed that Randi has decided that the Million Dollar Challenge will end.

How can the spending of one million dollars on cold uncomfortable reason counteract the spending of hundreds of millions on the lure of the cuddly warm imaginary?

It can't.

To those of us who demand that the half-baked of the world put up or shut up, or who think that - as my Rule 8 violating original sig says - money talks and BS walks, the value of that million in the bank waiting for a claimant is many many fold greater than if it were simply spent on educational programs.

Trying to compete financially with the Brownes, the Edwards, the Gellers - that is a losing proposition.

[Ian Osborne]

I was under the impression that the million was accrued over time, with lots of people donating money? I believe the figure was nowhere near a million when the Challenge was first advertised.

Also, wasn't the original plan for the Challenge to last ten years beyond Randi's death, or something? If so, ending it in 2010 is a substantial change of plan.

[Robaato]

If I recall correctly, the original challenge was for $1000 or so, put up by Randi himself. Later this was upped to $10,000. Then, supporters of JREF signed pledges to donate the money if and when the challenge was won.

This of course meant that "the prize money doesn't exist" was more or less a valid complaint. Then an anonymous donor donated the actual $1,000,000 prize, and there things stood until now.

I'd be willing to pledge, oh, $500 or so, to be donated as prize money IF and WHEN the prize is won, if Mr. Randi wishes to go that route again. I think the money would be safe....

[petre]

I was under the impression that the million was accrued over time, with lots of people donating money? I believe the figure was nowhere near a million when the Challenge was first advertised.

Also, wasn't the original plan for the Challenge to last ten years beyond Randi's death, or something? If so, ending it in 2010 is a substantial change of plan.

Hrmn, perhaps Randi DID die in 2000, and in 2010 he'll claim his own prize for having successfully projected himself back from the spirit world. It would make for a nice closed loop.

[strimmer]

Yeah there was an actual $1,000,000 donor, Randi has even said that; however, the donor wished to stay anonymous. I know that a popular rumor was always that the late Johnny Carson was the anonymous donor, but RemieV's comment that: "The donor is fully aware of the change and supports it." hints that the donor is actually alive. So i have no idea who the donor could actually be......

As for the decision to do away with the challenge, i am mixed. I think if the money is spent to pursue a more aggressive strategy to deal with the Sylvia's and Edwards, and more outreach for science and critical thinking it could be the best thing for the JREF and the skeptical community as a whole. It will still be nice though to have a million dollar challenge somewhere.....

[Cello Man]

I wonder how the Million will be put to more effective use. In terms of public outreach and especially education, a million dollars doesn't exactly go a long way these days.

[strimmer]

True......but since that is the case, why do away with the challenge?????

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I was under the impression that the million was accrued over time, with lots of people donating money? I believe the figure was nowhere near a million when the Challenge was first advertised.

I think at one time, people could pledge money toward it, but I don't know that they ever actually sent money in. (this is probably 10+ years ago)

Also, wasn't the original plan for the Challenge to last ten years beyond Randi's death, or something? If so, ending it in 2010 is a substantial change of plan.

So obviously, Randi died 8 years ago. :rolleyes:

[Dumb All Over]

I always thought to myself that the donor was Penn J.

[ObscureReferenceMan]

I'm pleased to hear this. The MDC was a gimmick and paranormal challenges date back in various incarnations, I believe, more than a hundred years. So, it is most definitely time to move on. Either find another, better gimmick or use the money for tangible, measurable work. I applaud JREF for using its assets for (hopefully!) the purposes of actual education in critical thinking, and not just as a prop for what usually turns out to be a bit of a pantomime. The latest test was severely lacking in dignity and 100% useless as a PR tool or indeed any sort of leverage whatsoever. And the press don't care about the MDC generally, so time to find another way to make a point.
Or, skip making points into the ether and start making a difference that can be measured.

I agree, but still I'm a little disappointed. Like arth, it was nice being able to counter woos with, "If you can do that, there's a million bucks waiting for you".

[ObscureReferenceMan]

Also, does this mean JREF will be concentrating even harder on "going after" Sylvia Browne, John Edward, etc.? That was the rationale for the "media presence" change to MDC, right?

[SkepticScott]

Is the donor anonymous, or can you tell us who it is?The donor is anonymous and since she/he never came forward after all these years, I assume he/she wants to remain anonymous.

[ksbluesfan]

A million dollars isn't enough incentive for Sylvia Browne, John Edward or James Van Praagh to risk losing their bread and butter. I have a feeling they all bring in that much every year. That's probably why only small-time nutters applied.

I can think of ways that this could be a good thing for skeptics.

[tkingdoll]

I agree, but still I'm a little disappointed. Like arth, it was nice being able to counter woos with, "If you can do that, there's a million bucks waiting for you".

Yes, it was a useful comeback for dealing with woo. However, we should ask two questions:

1) Is that usefulness worth one million dollars? (now we know JREF is allowed to spend the money, then that's what they are sacrificing in order to have the challenge).

2) Is "If you can do that, there's a million bucks waiting for you" the best or only argument we have? No, although it is a handy shortcut for a lot of things. But given that almost no-one applied for the challenge anyway (as a proportion of the number of woos who have had that comment made to them), then I don't think it's a huge sacrifice to have to come up with some other arguments. This would be made much easier if the JREF spent some of the money on educational materials that anyone can use.

[Larry Barrieau]

I think the MDC is a wonderful tool for countering claims from people who either claim paranormal powers or who supposedly know someone who has paranormal powers. It makes most people think, "Yeah, if there is a million dollars waiting for them to do what they claim they can do and they don't go for it, something is wrong."

My students often have anecdotes about a family member who can do something in the paranormal realm. Before the recent rule change, I would say to them: "If they can do what they claim, they can be a millionaire by taking a simple test." The kids go home and have a valuble discussion with 'Uncle Jack' the dowser, psychic, medium, etc.

This news is not good. I'm not sure that 'gimmick' is the right word but if it is, it is a great gimmick to make people think.

[HarryKeogh]

Why I don't like the change:

1. Change is bad!

2. "Randi had a million dollar challenge but he had to get rid of it because he was scared" - Mr. Phony Psychic

3. "Million Dollar Challenge" raises eyebrows. Gets notice. I feel it's like a company selling it's most valuable trademark or doing away with it altogether.

4. Set JREF apart from other skeptical organizations.

5. It's not like the money was wasting away. It was generating real income.

6. It's possibly the main reason Randi got on TV. It was almost always mentioned in his introductions in interviews.

Why I'll live with the change:

1. JREF needs the money and the donor is OK with the change.

2. Perhaps the challenge has served its purpose. Because of it news organizations knew Randi was the guy to call to counter woo (if only they called him more often) and I doubt they'll stop calling because of this change.

3. It's been 10 years. How long should it go on for 15? 20? Until Randi dies (not to sound morbid)?

But when the day comes when Randi isn't around and there's no challenge I just don't see JREF sticking around too long.

[colin]

All good things come to an end I guess.

I must say that I’m not happy with this decision. In my opinion, the JREF is the MDC and the MDC is the JREF. Without the MDC, the JREF will probably be even less well known and less effective. Let’s face it – what else do they do? Even the going after big name cons hasn’t materialized.

I hope I’m wrong and they do something “In Your Face, Woo!” with the cash and not just maintain a dusty library in Florida.

*queue setting sun* :(

[Marquis de Carabas]

There can be only one.

[fuelair]

That's good that it wasn't done against the donor's wishes, but I still don't like it.

Will the money be put into investments with higher returns, or is it all going to be spent on various projects? What will be happen to the JREF if the money is all going to be spent? Is this part of a plan to eventually end the JREF upon Randi's retirement?
Relax, I am sure the Atheist will (maybe already has) come up with everything wrong with this and JREF in general and will enlighten the peasants in His Chosen Time.:D:D:D

[HarryKeogh]

Relax, I am sure the Atheist will (maybe already has) come up with everything wrong with this and JREF in general and will enlighten the peasants in His Chosen Time.:D:D:D

Well, there's always his 2 Million Dollar Challenge (http://www.nzrealitytv.com/2007/09/sensing-murder-psychics-offered-2.html).

[Soapy Sam]

I'm with Teek.
The challenge was a good gimmick, but it's time for a change.
It has been clear for some years that it took up a lot of time and targeted the wrong people.
What's needed is some way to target the right people.

Look at the effect RSL is having. Whether he brings Slyvia down or not, he is helping people escape her damaging influence.
Perhaps this is the way JREF should be moving?

[Sespetoxri]

I've been following the JREF and Randi for a long time, but only recently got around to registering on the Forum. I commented in another 'death of the challenge' thread, but wanted to put my 2 cents in here as well.

What purpose does the challenge serve anymore? The only people who are even attempting to win the challenge are, to paraphrase Randi, genuinely deluded people who don't understand themselves what they claim they can do. It's a waste of ANY organization's resources to hold up a large sum of cash in escrow and assign the tasks related to the challenge to otherwise valuable employees who's time is better spent doing something more productive to the mission of the organization. Qui bono? The deluded individuals after the prize, when they lose, don't turn around and realize the errors of their ways, of course. No, they claim it was a 'bad day', the 'energy wasn't right', all the 'negative thoughts' stopped them. So the challenge is, essentially, being wasted on a very very small group of people who aren't going to change their minds anyway.

So what else does it accomplish? Initially, it was created to go after the 'big names' and knock holes in their claims. The big names have, to date, ran screaming from the challenge in all cases. In order for the million to make it's true power known, it would need to take out a Sylvia Brown or a Uri Geller - but they're not foolish enough to try - they'd destroy their reputation. They hide behind statements like 'Randi doesn't have the money' or 'the challenge is rigged'. This is enough for the news media which perpetuates their collective woo to turn a blind eye to the obvious - they can't prove a thing so they can't shut Randi up! So the million can't take out the big names, since they'll never set foot in the ring.

What are we left with? Well, we're left with a million dollars! Those of us who work for small businesses know just how much liquid cash that is, if used wisely. To tie up that kind of money when it's not accomplishing anything aside from allowing us skeptics to say, "If that's true, you can make a million dollars" is just a waste of resources. We have better arguements than that- we have the truth.

But... the JREF has made it all these years without the million, so what's the harm in not stopping the challenge? Well, the JREF has very intelligent people currently being wasted on the challenge. The challenge no one will ever be able to win, since we skeptics already KNOW it's woo-woo. So we have these people languishing day after day, in professional limbo. They're dealing with a dead-end issue, the day to day drudgery of keeping the challenge moving along. Answering emails, letters, threads, phone calls (I presume), and the like. Further, they coordinate testing procedures with the subjects, all over the world! For what? We already know the challenge cannot be answered. Look at the Pear Cable fiasco - months and months of never-ending work for nothing. What was proven? What did all that time and energy actually do for our cause? Not. A. Damn. Thing. We ended up right where we began - we still don't know if someone can tell the difference between a Monster or a Pear. Except, don't we already know it?

In the end we're left with a million dollars earning a relatively small amount of money, and a money sucking pit that is the day to day operation of the challenge.

We don't need the million dollars to disprove the woo. We have our minds, we have science, and we have the skepticism that brings us together. The challenge has already served it's purpose, for ten long years.

We don't need the challenge, we already have reality.

[RemieV]

That's good that it wasn't done against the donor's wishes, but I still don't like it.

Will the money be put into investments with higher returns, or is it all going to be spent on various projects? What will be happen to the JREF if the money is all going to be spent? Is this part of a plan to eventually end the JREF upon Randi's retirement?

Well, Randi said in Swift that more information on what, precisely, is going on with the JREF will be available soon...

Although I understand the JREFs decision, I think it's a great shame.

Unfortunately, every single potential claimant for the million dollars could now claim that the JREF will never award the cash as they're intending to utilise it themselves in 2010. And despite Randi's earnest protestations to the contrary, I think that's a difficult argument to conclusively refute.

The JREF now has a clear self-interest in ensuring that the money is not won. Whilst I am sure that the organisation has integrity, I think that this decision affects their perceived impartiality.

The progress of the various applicants is something the JREF is extremely open about. The future of the million dollars doesn't change the fact that the Challenge is pretty transparent. The testing protocols are and have always been mutually agreed upon, and through the forum, anyone who wishes to has access to the open claims.

I'm pleased to hear this. The MDC was a gimmick and paranormal challenges date back in various incarnations, I believe, more than a hundred years. So, it is most definitely time to move on. Either find another, better gimmick or use the money for tangible, measurable work. I applaud JREF for using its assets for (hopefully!) the purposes of actual education in critical thinking, and not just as a prop for what usually turns out to be a bit of a pantomime. The latest test was severely lacking in dignity and 100% useless as a PR tool or indeed any sort of leverage whatsoever. And the press don't care about the MDC generally, so time to find another way to make a point.
Or, skip making points into the ether and start making a difference that can be measured.

With better PR, I think the MDC could have been more famous than it is, but that takes money and without releasing the million there obviously isn't any money, so...catch 22.

I look forward to seeing what the money will be used for.

It's very hard to test someone who claims the ability to make others urinate themselves with dignity. ;)

Okay, I was under the impression that it was Randi's money. Is the donor anonymous, or can you tell us who it is?

Yeah there was an actual $1,000,000 donor, Randi has even said that; however, the donor wished to stay anonymous. I know that a popular rumor was always that the late Johnny Carson was the anonymous donor, but RemieV's comment that: "The donor is fully aware of the change and supports it." hints that the donor is actually alive. So i have no idea who the donor could actually be......

As for the decision to do away with the challenge, i am mixed. I think if the money is spent to pursue a more aggressive strategy to deal with the Sylvia's and Edwards, and more outreach for science and critical thinking it could be the best thing for the JREF and the skeptical community as a whole. It will still be nice though to have a million dollar challenge somewhere.....

I always thought to myself that the donor was Penn J.

The donor would indeed like to remain anonymous. I don't know who it is, or is not. But speculation is fun! ;)

[tkingdoll]

This news is not good. I'm not sure that 'gimmick' is the right word but if it is, it is a great gimmick to make people think.

Yes, but as I said, is it worth a million dollars? Or could you spend a million dollars in another way to make people think?

I think you could. I know I could. I could get the front page of every national newspaper with a big enough budget. I could get critical thinking materials into almost every school in America, with a big enough budget.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, what the Creationists have done for Creation Science, anyone could do for critical thinking. With a big enough budget. Now there's a great big budget available, let's see what JREF do with it.

[Beerina]

Maybe someone else can fill the role, challenge-wise? Is Criss Angel all talk?

I'm sure this is the core of it. Randi's getting older, and he won't be able to provide the advice on uncovering trickery forever, and he may be worried nobody else can fit the bill, or conceivably of a successor slacking and letting the prize get won (if not outright fraud), either of which would be a complete disaster for the cause.

I just hope Sylvia goes first. :(

[Beerina]

I always thought to myself that the donor was Penn J.

As one of the kings of Vegas, I'm sure nowadays it's walking around cash for him, but 10 years ago?

I, too, was under the impression the million was lots of donations...for the purpose of creating this fund. But I also thought it was all promises at the beginning (sort of a bunch of people agreeing to contribute if someone should win it, like deep pockets investors in insurance houses "back" this or that thing financially.) I do seem to remember something about an announce from Randi some years back about putting the million on some kind of more stable footing. Perhaps this investor was it.

[The Atheist]

Relax, I am sure the Atheist will (maybe already has) come up with everything wrong with this and JREF in general and will enlighten the peasants in His Chosen Time.:D:D:D

Someone calling my name?

Well, there's always his 2 Million Dollar Challenge (http://www.nzrealitytv.com/2007/09/sensing-murder-psychics-offered-2.html).

Correct, and it segues nicely into my thoughts on the demise of the MDC.


It's always seemed poor use of the money to have $1M tied up, useless beyond $5-10k annual income, which is a pittance in anyone's parlance. Anyone wishing to discuss it can take the subject elsewhere and I'll gladly join in, but million dollar plus challenges aren't very difficult to arrange, and at a cost of virtually nothing.

The challenge itself does generate publicity, which is why I'd like to see it continue (and even increase to say $10M). Sure, it's only a million, but as noted, it's still worthy enough that it's used in the media. Plus, a little anecdotal evidence; I have seen several mentions of the challenge at other forums and it's always the challenge which gets mentioned, not the "Randi" part. In many cases, I've seen the person mentioning the MDC not even knowing Randi's name, but he knew that a paranormal MDC existed.

JREF can have the best of worlds here. Whether it chooses to or not is over to it, but as long as the million is used wisely and not frittered away on funding deficits, I can only see the change as positive.

Maybe they could use it as a golden handshake for the next leader?

[tkingdoll]

It's very hard to test someone who claims the ability to make others urinate themselves with dignity. ;)



Oh, I certainly think Jeff behaved with as much dignity as anyone could muster under the circumstances, I've seen the videos! But the claim as a whole is not dignified - trying to make someone pee. And the claimant just made a fool of herself. Although Jeff has since clarified that the videos on YouTube have been very popular and brought new members and donations, so I retract my assertion that it had no leverage. But I doubt very much the JREF wants to be seen as 'the pee people'. :covereyes

[MWare]

Assuming (and I know this is a baseless assumption) it was the investor who might be getting older and wishes that their money could be used in a tangible way in the near future, I wonder if Randi would reinstate the challenge if another donor was to step forward and donate for specifically the purpose of keeping the challenge alive.

I am amongst those who are sorry to see the challenge die. Yes, I suppose gimmick could be an accurate description of it, but gimmicks certainly have their place. Yes, skeptics may have little need for the challenge, but for those fence sitting believers who might be still be won over from the dark side, I know I've encountered a few who raised an eyebrow to those who wouldn't take the challenge - especially after publicly accepting. Then when the believers would see the people they believed in refusing to take the challenge with the same silly arguments as people they didn't necessarily believe in I think it may have opened the door a little to some folks to see their beliefs a little differently. I too enjoyed using it as a quick and easy "so prove it" to the everyday people I sometimes see around my area making earth shattering paranormal claims. $1mil may be nothing to an SB type character, but my local tarot card reader certainly isn't bursting from excess income.

I also think it was a great point when someone mentioned that the money wasn't just sitting there, but actually was providing some income. It wasn't just gathering dust doing no good at all. I am willing to be convinced that the 1 mil could be spent in a real positive and lasting way, but the idea of taking a page ad in every major newspaper (I realize it wasn't a serious suggestion) or some other one-time or short-term deal really doesn't seem as useful as this challenge which has been a major PR talking point for a decade. It really seemed like the gift that kept on giving regardless if SB or her ilk every took it seriously. I'm struggling to think of a way $1mil could be spent today (or over time) such that it would have the same positive effects for more than a decade, but if anybody can do it, I suppose it would be the Amazing.

As always, I continue to support JREF and wish Randi and his crew the best as they keep up the good fight and I certainly hope that some emergency need didn't play any part in this (health care costs or something).

[RemieV]

By the way, feedback is always appreciated.

challenge@randi.org

[Wolfman]

I side with those who think this is a good thing.

Quite frankly, I was never that impressed with the million dollar challenge. Hell, there's a Christian organization that has put up a one million dollar reward to anyone who can "conclusively prove evolution". And there are many similar challenges out there.

The truth is, those who are atheists and don't believe in the supernatural will generally believe that Randi's challenge is legitimate, and the reason it hasn't been won is because those claiming supernatural powers are charlatans. On the other hand, those who believe in supernatural powers will simply assume that the challenge is rigged, and/or that those with real supernatural powers have no need to verify those powers to Randi or his organization. (Just as the exact opposite will be true in regards to the million dollar challenge to 'prove' evolution; those who believe in evolution will claim it is rigged, and those who do not will hold the fact that no one has won the prize as 'proof' that evolution is not real).

In short, it is a gimmick. And, in my opinion, a fairly poor gimmick -- when compared with other things that the JREF could be doing with the money.

I guess that much of my concern is that too much of the JREF's activities are focused on the personality of James Randi himself. Now, when he was simply an individual, doing public appearances aimed at debunking various supernatural claims, a $10,000 prize was a decent gimmick to give him more publicity -- he was a performer, and the money was his gimmick to get people to watch him.

The JREF has grown (or should grow) far beyond the man who started it (and is going to be forced to do so eventually, either by James Randi's resignation from the organization, or from his death). The JREF can no longer afford to rely on James Randi's personality or reputation.

It is time for the JREF to grow. My personal opinion is that the JREF has been essentially trapped in adolescence, unable to grow beyond a certain point because -- as has been said again and again and again by JREF representatives here -- the JREF "is James Randi's organization, and is run the way he wants to run it."

Yes, the man has accomplished a lot with the JREF. And yes, he deserves respect for what the JREF has accomplished. But my god, there is so much more potential, so much more that the JREF could (and should) be doing.

Yeah, the one million dollar challenge is a great gimmick. And yeah, there will be criticism from people who claim that the decision to end the challenge is proof that it was never real. But come on...who really thinks that those who make such claims would have been convinced otherwise if the challenge continued? Almost none.

Let's get that million dollars out doing what, in my opinion, should be the core focus of the James Randi Educational Foundation. Not the "James Randi" part, but the "Education" part. Organize more conferences. Publish more books. Support more projects aimed at promoting skepticism and scientific thinking.

What it comes down to for me is this:

We have a new generation of children out there...children who are being fed lies and misinformation about their world. Will a million dollar challenge make one iota of difference to those children?

I'd say no.

But would using that million dollars -- and funds from other sources -- to promote education and a realistic, scientific view of the world make a difference? Damn straight it would.

Yeah, short-term, this decision will cause problems, and criticisms, and complaints.

But the JREF cannot afford to be an organization with a short-term vision. Its vision must be long-term, and focus on what will gain the greatest benefits for the greatest number of people. Yeah, the MDC is a good thing...I'm not saying that its not good. But there are better things -- more effective, with more long-lasting and enduring results -- that this money can be used for.

[RSLancastr]

If Randi retires, I nominate Robert Lancaster to take his place.Thanks, but nobody can take Randi's place!

As for the end of the MDC: Perhaps now the JREF can have a Zero Dollar Challenge, just for those who said that they could never do something so base as to use their "powers" for financial gain...

[RSLancastr]

I just hope Sylvia goes first. :(You mean Stops (http://www.StopSylviaBrowne.com) first. :D

[Hindmost]

I always enjoyed being able to use the challenge against the woo, so I am in favor of keeping some type of test scheme available. However, change can be needed as there is reasonable evidence that the challenge is not converting the masses to critical thinking. Sylvia and her crowd are never going to accept anyhow...

The jury is out until we see what happens next and how effective using the money is.

glenn

[ynot]

I agree that the million could and should be used for better purposes. The MDC has been offered for long enough that it can now rest on it’s laurels. To be able to say that the MDC was offered would probably be just as effective as saying it is offered.

Now . . . how best to spend a million?

[latent aaaack]

Keeping the best of both worlds: have the challenge continue as a $10,000 challenge instead. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Whether it's a million or a thousand the challenge is worth only the amount of media coverage it gets and education is causes. When I first saw Sylvia Brown on Larry King or whatever as a teenager I believed her claims and it wasn't until Randi came on or (forgot which one) I read her claims refuted when I searched the net that I understood she was a fake. It's imperative only that the media keep on going to Randi or a skeptic whenever the subject of the supernatural comes up on television.

[tkingdoll]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]I agree that the million could and should be used for better purposes. The MDC has been offered for long enough that it can now rest on it’s laurels. To be able to say that the MDC was offered would probably be just as effective as saying it is offered.


Zackly. It just needs a little spin. How about

"oh really, you have ESP? Well, James Randi offered a million dollars for ten years to anyone who could demonstrate paranormal ability, and not one single person even made it through the preliminary test. When push came to shove, none of them could do what they claimed. What does that tell you?"

[Miss Whiplash]

I agree with Teek on this. The Challenge has been around a long time in some form or another. The only way to get more mileage out of the same gimmick is to up the prize or make it a reality show where woo-woos are humiliated on a weekly basis. Both are expensive possibilities.

With more austere financial times looming on the horizon in America, I think it's wise to regroup at this time. Sure, woos will take shots at the end of the prize, but when have woos ever put a positive spin on anything where Randi is involved?

[Wowbagger]

I feel a bit ticked off at this news. When I learn more about the circumstances, maybe I will feel better.

But, right now, I wish I was a multi-millionaire, so I could re-donate the money, and keep the challenge going.

[tkingdoll]

The only way to get more mileage out of the same gimmick is to up the prize

And there's a major problem with that option, because even if JREF could get, say, ten million, no-one would believe they'd be prepared to risk or part with it. I mean, people say that about the million, "oh, James Randi will do anything to make sure he doesn't lose his money". What would they say about ten million? Who in their right mind would risk ten million dollars, it just sounds like there's has to be a catch. I think it would attract publicity for a short while, yes, but few claimants.

It would be a good one-off though, a fantastic publicity stuff. If JREF could get it done via insurance, then they could challenge, say, Sylvia Browne, to a Ten Million Dollar Charity Challenge. How could she or the press ignore that? It would only work once, though.

[fromdownunder]

Who in their right mind would risk ten million dollars, it just sounds like there's has to be a catch. I think it would attract publicity for a short while, yes, but few claimants.



But really, how much is $10m, compared with the money that could be made if a particular woo could demonstrate paranormal powers. It would be peanuts compared to his/her earning power on the world entertainment circuit.

Imagine in the USA alone, how much could I make if I demonstrated finding, well something by divining. Hell, ABBA knocked back $US 1 Billion to make a one time world tour in 2000.

Norm

[tkingdoll]

But really, how much is $10m, compared with the money that could be made if a particular woo could demonstrate paranormal powers. It would be peanuts compared to his/her earning power on the world entertainment circuit.



It doesn't matter. Those arguments have consistently failed to work, as few enter the MDC. And one of the biggest objections to the challenge is that Randi doesn't want to part with the money. He claims he'd be delighted if someone one, the woos claim he'll do anything to make sure that doesn't happen. But $1m is at least conceivably affordable.

No-one in their right mind would risk ten million, as far as most people are concerned, and so there must clearly be a catch. The bigger the prize, the clearer it becomes (to those who might enter) that it's unwinnable. It's too big an amount to lose. Plus, there's the whole "I don't want to be a sideshow, thanks" side of the entertainment argument. Woos will come up with every excuse under the sun not to enter. The bigger the prize, the greater the cause for suspicion, and then you get the public sympathising with the woos too.

I appreciate what you're saying, but if your argument worked, then there would be more decent entries to the MDC. I suspect that your argument doesn't work because most woos have a nagging feeling that they might not be able to perform under scrunity. Cherrypicking psychics, particularly. And those who are outright frauds aren't convinced by any argument, for obvious reasons.

[Locknar]

I have mixed thoughts on the end of the MDC. On one hand, it makes for a great hammer...ie. "you claim to have powers, apply, prove it and you can be $1M richer just that easy."

On the other...I guess you'd have to look at who has been applying for the MDC. Certainly the big ticket folks like SB have avoided it like the plague. Rather, the JERF spends it's time with "I can make you pee", and other such trivial claims.

While I'd like to see it continue, I can see where using the money for other projects would have a bigger pay off.

[ConspiRaider]

So this was the Big News hinted at in last week's Commentary by the Big Man.

My initial reaction is holding, after having all day to mull. I think this is a good move by James Randi and JREF.

I've been a member of JREF for 10 years or so, a fan and admirer of James Randi even longer. This 1 million dollar challenge has certainly been a sexy and bold concept to throw out there at the folks speaking woo. I'd always use it as a sell point when speaking of James Randi and JREF, to friends and family and acquaintances and business clients and whomever would listen. You could see the ears perking up. It was an attention getter.

But I think it's good to see it go. My gut feeling is that the MDC is a tremendous drain on JREF and that's the reason for its impending fade out. The world has grown even more complex these last 10 or so years, which complicates many aspects of qualifying and evaluating and verifying and whatnot for the MDC. A labyrinthian enterprise. I believe JREF has sufficiently established itself as a force in its own right. The Internet makes it instantly accessible, planetwide. Therefore, a head-snapper big cash prize is hardly at the level of necessity it was in the mid-1990s. JREF has arrived and is here to stay.

Good call. I concur.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm pleased to hear this. The MDC was a gimmick and paranormal challenges date back in various incarnations, I believe, more than a hundred years. So, it is most definitely time to move on. Either find another, better gimmick or use the money for tangible, measurable work. I applaud JREF for using its assets for (hopefully!) the purposes of actual education in critical thinking, and not just as a prop for what usually turns out to be a bit of a pantomime. The latest test was severely lacking in dignity and 100% useless as a PR tool or indeed any sort of leverage whatsoever. And the press don't care about the MDC generally, so time to find another way to make a point.
Or, skip making points into the ether and start making a difference that can be measured.

With better PR, I think the MDC could have been more famous than it is, but that takes money and without releasing the million there obviously isn't any money, so...catch 22.

I look forward to seeing what the money will be used for.What Teek said.

Why tie up a million dollars forever? Perhaps the only thing that might have been better was to have set a time limit from the beginning. Then change wouldn't have been an issue.

Have the woo claims decreased since the challenge? Has anyone who believed in woo stopped making their claims because of the challenge?

The challenge hopefully influenced those who might otherwise have believed in some woo to have second thoughts. That can still occur. We can still say the challenge was open for x number of years and no one could provide evidence for any woo during that time. That essentially covers all the usual traditional claims, talking to the dead, ESP, dowsing, homeopathy and so on.

I think the MDC has done all it can. What I hope to see the money used for if it is to be used for the JREF mission is twofold. First and foremost, I think we need to use science ourselves. Have we ever launched a study to actually discover and test methods for increasing critical thought in the population at large? I'll repeat what I have said many times, woo beliefs are not strictly the result of a knowledge deficit. Yet I suspect that 90% of the skeptics' approach to woo is to provide knowledge.

We counter claim after claim with demonstrable evidence. I have honed my arguments on some subjects to a fine point, yet sharing this information mostly changes the beliefs of the portion of the population which has already adopted evidence based beliefs. We make progress at a snail's pace. There are many scientists in the world and our body of scientific knowledge is growing exponentially. But do we even know how that is affecting the woo beliefs of the huge number of people in the world who don't use critical thinking and don't understand the difference between evidence based conclusions and superstition based conclusions? Have the incredible advances in science been accompanied by an equally growing number of rational thinkers?

Are schools producing at least a majority of critical thinkers? Considering how many people waste their money on woo products, how many people believe in witches and monsters, how many rush out to buy the latest book offering success if you just magically wish it so, and how many people including some of the leaders of the most powerful country in the world can't figure out the theory of evolution is NOT in question, it would appear that schools are failing miserably.

There are marketers who study the science of changing people's beliefs. There are any number of Discovery Institute like religious think tanks out there studying the science of getting people to believe science and critical thinking are not the best option. There is a worldwide Evangelical movement that is paying particular attention to what is successful and what isn't, and that has allowed them to spread their anti-science message to millions worldwide.

All the while the scientific community is still only addressing the knowledge deficit. Where are our scientific studies looking at why people believe weird things? We have a couple books and a couple people thinking about it. Where is the research? Why are we not using the same science that the anti-science crowd is using against promoting critical thinking?

And the second thing I'd put the million toward were it up to me would then be implementing the methods of change developed from the scientific research and evaluate the effectiveness.

So end the MDC, that is not such a bad idea. But think about the scientific process. Practice what we love to preach. Research the problem. Develop solutions based on the research. Implement the solutions. Evaluate the effectiveness. Adopt the effective solutions based on the scientific approach. What is wrong with us that we are not doing that already?

[Gravy]

I'm all for the change. The challenge has proven its point. I don't understand the two year wait to end it though. Why not in six months?

[Robaato]

This story hit the front page of Fark yesterday. Most of the comments are quite gratifying...

link (http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=3305688)

[Antiquehunter]

My major concern is with how this has been communicated.

"The James Randi Educational Foundation Million-Dollar Challenge will be discontinued 24 months from this coming March 6th, and those prize funds will then be available to generally add to our flexibility. This move will free us to do many more projects, which will be announced at that time. "

As a financial donor to the JREF, I would be much more comfortable knowing more detail about that these projects are, and why such a large cash infusion is required. If there are specific projects in the wings that have NOT been done to this point because of a lack of capital - why is this? Why weren't these worthy projects brought forward and specific fundraising for these projects sought? Personally, while there is much work that COULD and probably SHOULD be undertaken by the JREF, I cannot see where money has been the barrier. Time perhaps, lack of cohesion on an administrative / membership basis is also another 'reason' - but I have never known capital to be a reason for not undertaking an important piece of work.

If the JREF is choosing to become like many other grassroots organizations, then I think now more than ever is the time for the JREF to communicate to its members the mandate & the vision of the JREF, and to select which projects are going to become primary focal points for the work of the JREF.

The Foundation is at an enviable stage of growth - it has a core, active, involved membership - a membership who are willing to contribute, to attend seminars & to purchase group vacations. It also has amassed capital in the amount of $1 million which can quite easily generate $75 - $100k a year in operating revenue, managed carefully and prudently (and free from the regulations governing the money when held for the MDC).

The reasons for killing the MDC are fine with me - and while there will be issues around its ending & potentially some bad press, I'm sure Randi & his board went into this eyes wide open. Now I'd like to see a strong clear message from Randi & his board to explain 'what next' - and to what valuable pursuits will the JREF be applying itself & its not inconsiderable cash assets? The traditional 'all will be revealed in good time' approach will no longer cut the mustard for this donor.

Change is fine - and often is a good thing. But change MANAGEMENT is critical. Communication to the membership will be what pulls the JREF through this transition - I hope Mr. Randi will take the time to make it happen.

Without sounding critical, it has been my observation that while Randi has successfully built a committed team to assist him in running / managing aspects of the JREF, he has not empowered this team by delegating authority to let them get on with things. Perhaps this change of direction will also assist in helping the JREF get its own house in order.

[remirol]

I'm all for the change. The challenge has proven its point. I don't understand the two year wait to end it though. Why not in six months?

So that nobody can say "Randi knew I was about to apply, and discontinued it so I wouldn't win the million" -- and so everyone who is currently "making preparations" on the forum can't say that either.

With two years' lead time, nobody can pretend they don't or didn't get any warning that it was going away.

[Damien Evans]

Maybe someone else can fill the role, challenge-wise? Is Criss Angel all talk?

The Atheist already has a $2 million NZ challenge set up

[Miss Whiplash]

As a financial donor to the JREF, I would be much more comfortable knowing more detail about that these projects are, and why such a large cash infusion is required.

One million $$ US is not that huge a cash infusion for any organization, not when a group is competing against corporate churches with operating budgets of nearly one billion $$. I doubt a million would pay for JREF headquarters with real estate as high as it is.

[Miss Whiplash]

The Atheist already has a $2 million NZ challenge set up

From what I've read on this forum, there were many questions on the existence of that two million.

Even if it's legit, two million isn't much sweeter than one. In the US, it would only be worth half as taxes take half the total amount.

[Gravy]

So that nobody can say "Randi knew I was about to apply, and discontinued it so I wouldn't win the million" -- and so everyone who is currently "making preparations" on the forum can't say that either.

With two years' lead time, nobody can pretend they don't or didn't get any warning that it was going away.The same is true with six months.

[Ryan O'Dine]

Personally, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with redirecting the money. I sincerely hope, though, that Randi isn’t deciding to cease testing paranormal claims altogether.

Scientists aren’t going to (and shouldn’t) waste their time. Regulatory agencies can’t be bothered. The news media do a crap awful job of it. And pseudoscientists exacerbate the problem.

There may be other skeptical organizations providing a challenge, but Randi is unique in certain ways, particularly regarding his skills as a magician, his showmanship, and his ability to communicate.

Not that he should continue testing anyone who comes a-knocking. I just hope he’ll leave the door open to testing major, novel, or otherwise noteworthy claims that will agree to a protocol, million dollars or no.

[Miss Whiplash]

Trends change over the years and I think that is what's happening here. CSICOP reorganized as CSI last year.

[Dumb All Over]

As one of the kings of Vegas, I'm sure nowadays it's walking around cash for him, but 10 years ago?

Ah, but don't forget the huge success that How To Play With Your Food was. That was published in 1992 and probably earned P & T a pretty penny, not to mention all their other successes prior to the MDC.

[tkingdoll]

Cash pays 4.5-5.0% currently, maybe even a bit more, depending on the instrument. Zero risk. TA is suggesting that the JREF could earn only 10-20% of that.

Like I said, now we know why he has no money.

TA's figures regarding the interest on the million are those from the JREF's own filed returns, I think. The numbers certainly rang a bell with me, anyway.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Well, I knew it. That's it. From now on I will never be able to tell people "You know what? If he/she thinks he can do it, there's this guy with a Million Dollar challenge".

I'm thinking maybe someone will come up with a different kind of challenge. Maybe not a Million Dollar Challenge but a "Eat all the chocolate you want for a week Challenge" or the "Don't pay taxes for the rest of your life Challenge" (Hey that last one would probably work better than a Million Dollar Challenge, don't you think?)

No, I mean, seriously.

Consider it our way of saying "we know you're full of it, so apply anyway"

[Antiquehunter]

One million $$ US is not that huge a cash infusion for any organization, not when a group is competing against corporate churches with operating budgets of nearly one billion $$. I doubt a million would pay for JREF headquarters with real estate as high as it is.

I disagree - a million (and the passive income it provides) is HEAPS to run a small organization (which the JREF is) - particularly when such organization now has VERY little on its slated agenda. Beyond Randi's public appearances (which generate revenue & are cashflow positive), a package holiday once a year (revenue positive), a meeting (or two) a year (should be revenue positive), a volunteer run & funded forum (cashflow neutral), a weekly online newsletter (small expense) and a few sporadic mailed-out publications (small/moderate expense) - what are the planned expenses? Nothing that has been expressed to the membership! (apart from some VERY minor educational scholarships - which while a step in the right direction, are certainly not major budget line objects.)

This is the key to my argument. Discontinue the challenge because its run its course - fine. WHAT is now the mandate & plan of attack? As a multi-year member of the JREF (membership fees fully paid), a regular attendee of TAMs and TAAs, and a vocal supporter, this recent announcement leaves me saying 'now what?'.

What competition against better funded churches is even underway? Has the JREF ever stated that 'competing' against churches is part of its mandate? We have a pot of money that while, pales in comparison to some other organizations is SOMETHING - and is something that a lot of organizations would be very pleased to have. If not the challenge, then now what?!?!? And for Ed's sake, please do NOT let the answer be 'I'll tell you later...' - because that just does NOT cut it.

-AH.

[Kaylee]

The first thing I thought when I read this was that this may mean that there are no plans to have the JREF continue after Randi retires.


My understanding is that in the USA, a non-profit either has to manage its assets according to its stated purpose or according to any restrictions attached to their grants -- or turn them over to another non-profit with a similar mission. In other words, at the end of a non-profits organization's "life", it is not an option to have the assets turned over to former management or other individuals to do with as they would like.

So perhaps the intent is to start using up the JREF's assets, albeit on worthy causes -- and not think in terms of a sucessor to JREF or in terms of which other non-profit organization would "inherit" the JREF's assets.

[Miss Whiplash]

I disagree - a million (and the passive income it provides) is HEAPS to run a small organization (which the JREF is) - particularly when such organization now has VERY little on its slated agenda. Beyond Randi's public appearances (which generate revenue & are cashflow positive), a package holiday once a year (revenue positive), a meeting (or two) a year (should be revenue positive), a volunteer run & funded forum (cashflow neutral), a weekly online newsletter (small expense) and a few sporadic mailed-out publications (small/moderate expense) - what are the planned expenses? Nothing that has been expressed to the membership! (apart from some VERY minor educational scholarships - which while a step in the right direction, are certainly not major budget line objects.)

Doesn't JREF also offer scholarships?

This is the key to my argument. Discontinue the challenge because its run its course - fine. WHAT is now the mandate & plan of attack? As a multi-year member of the JREF (membership fees fully paid), a regular attendee of TAMs and TAAs, and a vocal supporter, this recent announcement leaves me saying 'now what?'.

I'd hazard a guess, along the lines of the "E" in JREF- education. Then again, as JREF is small, more money would expand the organization.

What competition against better funded churches is even underway? Has the JREF ever stated that 'competing' against churches is part of its mandate? We have a pot of money that while, pales in comparison to some other organizations is SOMETHING - and is something that a lot of organizations would be very pleased to have. If not the challenge, then now what?!?!? And for Ed's sake, please do NOT let the answer be 'I'll tell you later...' - because that just does NOT cut it.

-AH.

Perhaps it's American bias, but given the assault the the rapture league is having on education, I see that rationality in general is in competition with well the heeled hallelujah crowd.

Again, I'd hazard a guess of education. CSI reorganized last year with the same goal in mind. They do not have a challenge. They are distancing themselves for testing paranormal claims and focusing on science and critical thinking education.

"I tell you later-" is fine by me for now. It means plans are in the works and perhaps not finalized. I'll wait. However, those who are impatient and think it's not a good thing are under no obligation to contribute anything else financially to JREF. JREF is not the Department of Revenue. No one is going to garnish wages.

[CrossHair]

I disagree - a million (and the passive income it provides) is HEAPS to run a small organization (which the JREF is) - particularly when such organization now has VERY little on its slated agenda. Beyond Randi's public appearances (which generate revenue & are cashflow positive), a package holiday once a year (revenue positive), a meeting (or two) a year (should be revenue positive), a volunteer run & funded forum (cashflow neutral), a weekly online newsletter (small expense) and a few sporadic mailed-out publications (small/moderate expense) - what are the planned expenses? Nothing that has been expressed to the membership! (apart from some VERY minor educational scholarships - which while a step in the right direction, are certainly not major budget line objects.)

This is the key to my argument. Discontinue the challenge because its run its course - fine. WHAT is now the mandate & plan of attack? As a multi-year member of the JREF (membership fees fully paid), a regular attendee of TAMs and TAAs, and a vocal supporter, this recent announcement leaves me saying 'now what?'.

What competition against better funded churches is even underway? Has the JREF ever stated that 'competing' against churches is part of its mandate? We have a pot of money that while, pales in comparison to some other organizations is SOMETHING - and is something that a lot of organizations would be very pleased to have. If not the challenge, then now what?!?!? And for Ed's sake, please do NOT let the answer be 'I'll tell you later...' - because that just does NOT cut it.

-AH.

Antiquehunter, I admire your ability for clear, rational thought and to get it through your keyboard! If someone does not want to know "what is next?", or "what is the money going to be used for?" and is happy with "I'll tell you later", then they are certainly cut in the "cult follower" mold. I predict that membership renewal will fall dramatically if there are no answers about the path forward.

[Miss Whiplash]

Antiquehunter, I admire your ability for clear, rational thought and to get it through your keyboard! If someone does not want to know "what is next?", or "what is the money going to be used for?" and is happy with "I'll tell you later", then they are certainly cut in the "cult follower" mold. I predict that membership renewal will fall dramatically if there are no answers about the path forward.

I think that's over-reacting a bit. I don't feel that those of us who are not upset over the end of the MDC are cult followers. MDC was a gimmick for PR. Its time has passed and time to move on. As whatever future plans appear to have been discussed with the contributer of the $1 million, and he understands, so I'm going to wait before I run screaming that the sky is falling.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Why would anyone assume no answers as to what next will be forthcoming? Seems a bit out of character with JREF.

And I'm pleased to hear about the change in CSICOP to CSI, focusing on science education and critical thinking. I haven't been to their web site in a while. Guess I'll have to check it out.

[rjh01]

Remember JREF have got two years to work out what they are going to do with the money. So 'we will tell you later' is an invitation to us to start a thread on the subject that will run for two years and then...

[CrossHair]

I think that's over-reacting a bit. I don't feel that those of us who are not upset over the end of the MDC are cult followers. MDC was a gimmick for PR. Its time has passed and time to move on. As whatever future plans appear to have been discussed with the contributer of the $1 million, and he understands, so I'm going to wait before I run screaming that the sky is falling.

You are only a cult follower if you do not want to know what is going on, what is going to happen, and blindly follow without questioning. If you have faith that all will be revealed and are patient, then that is fine but not very skeptical. As for the "the sky falling" I am sure that I, and you, will be fine. This decision is big enough that it will have a large effect on everyone involved directly and peripheraly with JREF, but it isn't earth shatering otherwise.

Obviously a lot of thought went into this decision so why not have complete transparancy? I don't believe that this move was made with the only plan being to figure out what to do over the course of the next two years!

[Miss Whiplash]

You are only a cult follower if you do not want to know what is going on, what is going to happen, and blindly follow without questioning. If you have faith that all will be revealed and are patient, then that is fine but not very skeptical. As for the "the sky falling" I am sure that I, and you, will be fine. This decision is big enough that it will have a large effect on everyone involved directly and peripheraly with JREF, but it isn't earth shatering otherwise.

Obviously a lot of thought went into this decision so why not have complete transparancy? I don't believe that this move was made with the only plan being to figure out what to do over the course of the next two years!


Who said I was following blindly?

The info on the MDC has just been announced. We've been told more will come later. I take it that all future plans have not been finalized at this point in time. As leaks and gossip spread about things of this nature, it was very appropriate for Randi give us an official statement on the end of the MDC with other details to follow. In the mean time, I'm not going to jump to conclusions that Randi and JREF are doing something nefarious with the $1 million. If others want to lapse into hysterics and rend outer garments over the announcement, they may do so. I, however, have no reason to follow them.

[Miss Whiplash]

Why would anyone assume no answers as to what next will be forthcoming? Seems a bit out of character with JREF.

And I'm pleased to hear about the change in CSICOP to CSI, focusing on science education and critical thinking. I haven't been to their web site in a while. Guess I'll have to check it out.

I can see the point. Focusing solely on debunking paranormal claims is limiting. It does unintentionally associate skeptics with woosters to the casual passer-by.

Personally, I'm not surprised about the end of the MDC. It was mentioned this summer somewhere on this forum that JREF was moving more toward education. The reorganization of this forum to make it more accessible to schools followed not long after. Ending the challenge and changing direction is a logical step.

Let's face it- confronting woos and blowing them out of the water gets attention. But at the end of the day, education reaches more people and advances skepticism more than having Sylvia Browne fail the MDC.

[yairhol]

If this had already been said then I appologize.
My thoughts on the end of the MDC is why does it have to be all or nothing?
The $1M challenge is a great weapon for the skeptics arguing with woo woos (I've used it many times before to silence woo believers) but if some of that money needs to be spent on other 'projects' then why not lower the sum to say $250,000? The other $750,000 can be used for whatever and $250,000 is still a good sum of money to draw in the paranormals.
Long live the $$$ paranormal challenge (no matter the sum of money).

Regards,
Yair

[rjh01]

If this had already been said then I appologize.
My thoughts on the end of the MDC is why does it have to be all or nothing?
The $1M challenge is a great weapon for the skeptics arguing with woo woos (I've used it many times before to silence woo believers) but if some of that money needs to be spent on other 'projects' then why not lower the sum to say $250,000? The other $750,000 can be used for whatever and $250,000 is still a good sum of money to draw in the paranormals.
Long live the $$$ paranormal challenge (no matter the sum of money).



I will second this motion.

[Ryan O'Dine]

Let's face it- confronting woos and blowing them out of the water gets attention. But at the end of the day, education reaches more people and advances skepticism more than having Sylvia Browne fail the MDC.


I'm going to disagree slightly, and add to what I wrote earlier.

I can't think of anything more educational than confronting woo head-on with actual science. I get the impression it's the first time many believers (and not just test subjects) are forced to grapple with the gritty particulars of the scientific method. And in an entertaining, publicly accessible way, no less.

For that reason, I hope Randi will leave open the door for future testing, even if an MD isn't involved.

[Rasmus]

why not lower the sum to say $250,000?

We can certainly argue about the usefulness or effectiveness of the challenge. I agree that the actual amount - as long as it's relatively high - doesn't make much of a difference.

However, running the challenge means a lot of work and tied up resources for the JREF other than the mere price money. I think discontinuing the challenge will have a lot of impact here, more so than just on the monetary side of things.

[NobbyNobbs]

On the one hand, I can understand the reason for discontinuing the challenge, but on the other, I'm very disappointed.

I can't tell you how many times I've been able to say to someone, "Oh, yeah? Well, if that's true, there's a million dollars waiting."

That million dollars was not only ammunition for the JREF against woo, but it was a weapon all of us could yield. What do I use now?

[Rasmus]

On the one hand, I can understand the reason for discontinuing the challenge, but on the other, I'm very disappointed.

I can't tell you how many times I've been able to say to someone, "Oh, yeah? Well, if that's true, there's a million dollars waiting."

That million dollars was not only ammunition for the JREF against woo, but it was a weapon all of us could yield. What do I use now?

Same here. But I have to admit that yielding the MDC didn't make a difference, either. I may be losing the only weapon I had, but I am losing an ineffective weapon. Maybe that will force me to go look for something better.

[The Atheist]

Antiquehunter, I admire your ability for clear, rational thought and to get it through your keyboard! If someone does not want to know "what is next?", or "what is the money going to be used for?" and is happy with "I'll tell you later", then they are certainly cut in the "cult follower" mold. I predict that membership renewal will fall dramatically if there are no answers about the path forward.

While Randi's alive, I doubt that's going to happen, but I agree with everything else you've said.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I think the whole thing is getting a bit tiresome, so I don't think I'll miss it.

However, if you have a paranormal ability, why not apply now, grab the million, and screw the JREF out of the money? Then all the JREF employees who are going to get fat and lazy on the income from the million will be out on the street. You'll have the last laugh! The JREF will have shot itself in the foot. Mwahahaha!

~~ Paul

[yairhol]

I've attracted at least a couple of people to the JREF website solely based on the MDC. It'll be dearly missed. Again I note that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. $250,000 is still a good sum of money to attract others be they woo believers or fellow skeptics.

Regards,
Yair

[arthwollipot]

I can't tell you how many times I've been able to say to someone, "Oh, yeah? Well, if that's true, there's a million dollars waiting."Someone posted the answer to this earlier in the thread. "For ten years, James Randi offered a prize of a million dollars to anyone who could demonstrate paranormal phenomena under controlled observing conditions. Of the thousands who applied, not one succeeded."

[Nucular]

I disagree with those who would argue for the retention of a smaller prize pot.

Rather than cheapen the prize, I think it's a lot classier to, as RSLancaster suggested, make a 'Zero Dollar Challenge', partly as a way of visibly keeping the testing function of the JREF at the fore, partly by way of gently poking fun at the change, and also to answer any of those who have declined the test on iffy financial grounds (i.e. "I can't use my powers for gain", etc.).

This would have the effect, I would hope, of generating press interest allowing a platform to restate the goals of the JREF - e.g. Randi being invited onto shows to be asked "why should anyone apply now that there's no prize?"

All or nothing is far more interesting than just reducing the pot.

I'd also add that, though I'll miss the shorthand argument of "there's this guy offering a million dollars...", the other sceptical prize pots in the world add up to a fair whack (I think there's a SkepticReport article on that), and I've found myself increasingly saying lately anyway "forget the million dollars, you could get a Nobel prize if you can reliably do that!"

[Cuddles]

I think one of the problems is that the JREF really doesn't seem to be any good at publicising what they do. The only things I really know anything about are the challenge and Swift. If the challenge goes, what will the JREF actually do? Sure, there's TAM, but an annual event can't take up that much time. There's the scholarships, but they're hardly well known, and it's not all that clear what they're actually for. There's Randi's lectures, but I have no idea how often he does them or what he talks about, and apart from some videos of very old talks, there's really nothing about them made public as far as I can tell.

And that's it. For someone involved enough to become a moderator on the forum, all the JREF seems to do is the challenge and a few little things we don't hear much about. If the challenge goes, what is left? A look on the calendar shows very little happening, and the little that is is mostly other organisations. Maybe there is actually much more going on, but they're not making it easy to find out.

As far as many people are concerned, the challenge is the JREF, and if it's going to go, we need to know what the JREF will be afterwards. "We'll tell you later" just doesn't cut it, and sounds suspiciously like "We haven't decided yet". I agree that there is lots the JREF could do with a million, but before I can support its removal from the challenge, I need to know what it actually will be used for.

[Antiquehunter]

Hey - you're channelling me, Cuddles. GET OUT OF MY HEAD!

[Spindrift]

Couldn't JREF get an insurance policy for the prize money? Lloyds of London will insure almost anything. I don't know what the actuarial risk would be, but if the insurer was serious, they'd know it's basically a no lose situation. You could probably get a much larger prize for less than the interest on putting the $1M into a money market.

[Soapy Sam]

I feel a bit ticked off at this news. When I learn more about the circumstances, maybe I will feel better.

But, right now, I wish I was a multi-millionaire, so I could re-donate the money, and keep the challenge going.

I wish I was an unscrupulous multi-millionaire gangster who could have a hit man systematically take out leading psychics.
It would be illuminating to see whether they were able to predict their own demise and assist the police to forestall the gunman.

(Think of it as "evilution" in action)

[Overman]

This is horrible news. I have spoken about the challange to many people for many years. I have even said 'well prove it and you win a million' to many people.

What a load of crap. The million dollar challange is worth way more than a nomonal million. If think they can spend the money better, good for them, but if they fall short, it is a horrible blow to skepticism.

[tkingdoll]

This is horrible news. I have spoken about the challange to many people for many years. I have even said 'well prove it and you win a million' to many people.



And did any of them enter the challenge?

Do you honestly believe that the chance for you and a few others to occasionally say "well prove it" to people they disagree with is worth a million dollars? What actual, tangible, measurable effect does it have? Compare that to, say, creating a critical thinking teacher's pack for every school in the USA, for example. Or funding a lobby group to fight the growth of creationism. Etc.

You can do a lot more with money than you can with ideology.

[Overman]

Agreed, but can you think of any other focal point of PR for skepticism? Randi's challange stands as probably the most visible item. I believe it would be wiser raise x thousand for a great PR job and push that Million Dollar Challange!

Why could the JREF just try to raise money for the items you are referring to?

Isn't that what they are going to have to do anyone one they have spent this million?

So you spend the million on stuff that doesn't 'stick', and now you are in the same boat (as far as cash on hand is concerned) except you no longer have the great PR gimmick of the Million Dollar challange!

What will the JREF do then? Will its goals shift or change? I remember a couple of threads from last year about the focus or goal or the JREF and is it effective. Most people seemed to think they had dropped a ball they never intended to pick up.

I was critical of the JREF for not reaching or attempting goals that they had never intended to to, but they still had the challange.

Is this now just a place to gather skepics for posting and Randi's main page rants (I dig them, but often they are just rants rather than any paticular insight)?


I guess my main concern is
a) What are the JREF's goals?
b) Are those good goals?
b) Would they have been able to be accomplished without taking away the Million?

[Larry Barrieau]

There have been some good reasons given to keep the challenge like posts 11, 22, 37, 50, 105, 108, and of course the brilliant 36. But I'm not yet swayed by the 'spend it' crowd.

Teek: Your example,"oh really, you have ESP? Well, James Randi offered a million dollars for ten years to anyone who could demonstrate paranormal ability, and not one single person even made it through the preliminary test. When push came to shove, none of them could do what they claimed. What does that tell you?"
If I were the applicant, I think my answer would be, "That's because no one in the past had real powers. I do."

The zero dollar challenge may seem classier but there are a couple of problems with it. 1. It will draw very little public attention. 2. It's been done. Some would be applicants have declared the money aspect of the challenge too gauche for them. They have been told to not take the money but give it to a charity instead. Be a hero, save some lives - but no.

The challenge is the essence of JREF. When Randi is introduced on stage, radio and TV, the hook is the MDC. The average person sits up and takes notice when a million dollar prize is offered.

What will we do with the money? Spending the million won't take long in today's economy and then it's gone. What shall it be spent on? Any concrete ideas? I can change my mind.

[volatile]

I think one of the problems is that the JREF really doesn't seem to be any good at publicising what they do. The only things I really know anything about are the challenge and Swift. If the challenge goes, what will the JREF actually do? Sure, there's TAM, but an annual event can't take up that much time. There's the scholarships, but they're hardly well known, and it's not all that clear what they're actually for. There's Randi's lectures, but I have no idea how often he does them or what he talks about, and apart from some videos of very old talks, there's really nothing about them made public as far as I can tell.

And that's it. For someone involved enough to become a moderator on the forum, all the JREF seems to do is the challenge and a few little things we don't hear much about. If the challenge goes, what is left? A look on the calendar shows very little happening, and the little that is is mostly other organisations. Maybe there is actually much more going on, but they're not making it easy to find out.

As far as many people are concerned, the challenge is the JREF, and if it's going to go, we need to know what the JREF will be afterwards. "We'll tell you later" just doesn't cut it, and sounds suspiciously like "We haven't decided yet". I agree that there is lots the JREF could do with a million, but before I can support its removal from the challenge, I need to know what it actually will be used for.

Couldn't have said it better myself, frankly.

[BPSCG]

What actual, tangible, measurable effect does it have? Compare that to, say, creating a critical thinking teacher's pack for every school in the USA, for example. Or funding a lobby group to fight the growth of creationism. Etc.You think you can do that with a million dollars? And even if you do, once that money's been spent, it's spent. The Randi million has been doing its work for ten years.

I'm with the people who want to see it continue. Up to now, we could tell the woos there was an easy million bucks waiting for them. Now they can go on the attack and ask why JREF isn't offering it any more. "What's JREF afraid of? What's he trying to hide?"

With regard to who takes over JREF after Randi is gone, does anyone know if he's done any succession planning?

[IXP]

I am on the side of those who think the MDC was a great weapon. I cannot imagine any other use of the money that will have the lasting effect that MDC has.

As to changing anyone's mind: There are plenty of skeptics on this board who started out as believers. I have to think that the MDC had something to do this. Even the woos who come here with plans to win the Challenge are actauly educated by the process. No, most of the them don't throw away their beliefs, but the way they start hedging when it comes down to negotiating a protocol indicates to me that they have started thinking about their "powers" a different way.

I am very sorry to see the Challenge go, and hold little hope that the money can be put to better use, though I would be happy to be proved wrong in this case.

IXP

[The Atheist]

Couldn't JREF get an insurance policy for the prize money? Lloyds of London will insure almost anything. I don't know what the actuarial risk would be, but if the insurer was serious, they'd know it's basically a no lose situation. You could probably get a much larger prize for less than the interest on putting the $1M into a money market.

You're close - Lloyd's won't touch it with a barge-pole, but others will.

With regard to who takes over JREF after Randi is gone, does anyone know if he's done any succession planning?

He's tried but failed to put a successor in place, there's a recent thread in this sub-forum.

[HarryKeogh]

Do you honestly believe that the chance for you and a few others to occasionally say "well prove it" to people they disagree with is worth a million dollars?

Yes. The Million Dollar Challenge is very likely a reason Randi has gotten himself on national and international TV so many times. And of course, it didn't even cost JREF a million dollars. They just had to stick the money in an account that generated income that they used every year.

IMO, If donations were pouring in they wouldn't have canceled the challenge. They wouldn't say it's too much work and we've given the woos enough time. But I think they just need the money to make ends meet and if that's the case I don't blame them. But I am skeptical about their reasons given for ending it.

[The Atheist]

But I think they just need the money to make ends meet and if that's the case I don't blame them. But I am skeptical about their reasons given for ending it.

The timing straight after the loss does give it that kind of look. Not to mention 31 December being the last day of JREF's financial year and they would accordingly have a fairly good idea of what this year's number is going to be. Any odds on a loss?

[krelnik]

The Atheist already has a $2 million NZ challenge set up

I was surprised that this was the only other challenged mentioned in this thread, and so late in the thread. If you check on Skepdic's page on the the JREF Challenge (http://skepdic.com/randi.html) and scroll down, you'll see that there are at least nine other persons or organizations in six different countries on four different continents, that offer almost identical paranormal challenges.

Assuming I worked the currency converter (http://finance.yahoo.com/currency) properly, the total of those nine prizes as of today is $1,751,529.99 USD. (Even without The Athiest's prize, it's still a quite healthy $219,630.90 USD).

If you don't think any of those prizes (or the total) look impressive enough, I encourage you to pick out one of those organizations and donate them a nice round figure earmarked for their challenge. I believe most of them are non-profits, so you'll get a nice tax write off (or two--one in 2008, one in 2009).

So anyone claiming we are losing a weapon in the fight against woo, take note. The weapon is not going away. It is just changing its web/email address as of March 6th, 2010. Maybe a nice side effect of this will be that as JREF renews its focus on education, these other organizations will get a nice boost in publicity for their activities.

--Tim Farley

[dglas]

One of the few debate resources available to all of us is now gone. Everyone at the individual level could point at it and say, "Put up or shut up." Now, it's gone and its passing will be a source of derision and satire. Let the snickering begin.

But then, I'm an atheist and the JREF has gone to pains to exclude me. Forget I said anything.

The relentless downward spiral continues...

[Santa666]

I know many people have had their say, but I would like to chime in as well.


The MDC is much, much more than a one-shot revolver for the everyday citizen to challenge paranormal claims, it's very much like a baited hook. A great many people "believe" in the supernatural, but they don't give over their thought processes to it. Ask a random person if they believe in god, they might say yes, in fact, they might say yes "just because", they might say yes because they truly believe, they might say yes because that is what they think you want to hear. Now ask that same person to explain WHY they believe in god. This question is much more difficult and requires a minimal amount of thinking. You might even get someone to ask themselves the question again, and then you have them "hooked".

The above is a "cheesy" example but the MDC is just like asking "WHY". If a fence sitter were to hear or see what could be described as a paranormal event, discussion about the challenge can easily become a baited hook to draw them in.

"Why is some guy offering 1,000,000 dollars to prove what looks to be an obvious supernatural event?"

The above question is the hook for the MDC. It could very easily draw someone to this site to find out "WHY" and to learn more. Those that already know about the challenge tend to quickly land on one side or the other of the fence, but it's those who have never heard of James Randi, or the MDC, or the JREF, to whom this "gimmick" can serve as beacon.

James Randi IS the JREF, and intimately intertwined is the MDC. My feelings would be that the MDC should be the main drive of the JREF, with some fine tuning of course. Use the MDC as an educational tool. Teach others about critical thinking and double blind studies and self evaluation using the MDC as the focal point. Have a classroom design a test protocol, and then try and figure out where the flaws are. Show the general public WHY psychics and other charlatans should not be trusted. RSLancaster's site, StopSylviaBrowne.com, would be a perfect example of this. And all of it could stem, at least partially, from the MDC. This challenge and money should be a stepping stone and reference, not just "that thing the JREF does, but no one pays attention to".


Ok, I am done with my two cents.


Santa

[The Atheist]

Looked worth more than $0-02 to me.

How are people outside of this forum seeing it? It hasn't made much impact through Google, which gave the following:

Dawkins (http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=605297) Hardly raised a ripple, with only half a dozen posts, supportive.

Some "Shroomery" place with four or five posts which say nothing [allowable in this forum].

A "Bad Idea" (http://badidea.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/randis-1-million-dollar-skeptical-challenge-to-end-in-2-years-what-will-woo-do/) blog which actually thinks it's a good idea. That the site has a psychic ad on it may or may not be relevant.

Some atheist group on MSN (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_thread/thread/a216b9cd1fd33474/067e3b9a35b56bbd) which really likes the challengers being smacked around, but don't offer any real opinion on its removal.

And a Techo forum (http://www.techimo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=196622)where the details were posted but have attracted no comment at all.

I think the minimal interest outside of this forum tends to support the idea that the challenge isn't providing value for money.

[tkingdoll]

You think you can do that with a million dollars?



Me? Yes, that's what I do. My last campaign reached over 82 million people.

As for the money being gone once it's gone, money attracts money. A sufficiently well-publicised and well-solicited fundraising campaign brings in far more money than it costs, if the donor feels they are getting something tangible for their money.

These things are not difficult if placed in the hands of experts.

[BenBurch]

I'd say its done its job. And two freaking years is far more than enough notice for anybody to get a haircut and a new suit and take the challenge.

[Humanists Harbor]

I feel a bit ticked off at this news. When I learn more about the circumstances, maybe I will feel better.

But, right now, I wish I was a multi-millionaire, so I could re-donate the money, and keep the challenge going.


Perhaps now is a good time to remind everyone that they can raise money for the JREF simply by searching the internet using goodsearch.com. Yes, yes indeed, perhaps now is a good time. Do your part, Mr. Bagger!

Thank you and good night.

[Santa666]

Looked worth more than $0-02 to me.

How are people outside of this forum seeing it? It hasn't made much impact through Google, which gave the following:

Dawkins (http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=605297) Hardly raised a ripple, with only half a dozen posts, supportive.

Some "Shroomery" place with four or five posts which say nothing [allowable in this forum].

A "Bad Idea" (http://badidea.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/randis-1-million-dollar-skeptical-challenge-to-end-in-2-years-what-will-woo-do/) blog which actually thinks it's a good idea. That the site has a psychic ad on it may or may not be relevant.

Some atheist group on MSN (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_thread/thread/a216b9cd1fd33474/067e3b9a35b56bbd) which really likes the challengers being smacked around, but don't offer any real opinion on its removal.

And a Techo forum (http://www.techimo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=196622)where the details were posted but have attracted no comment at all.

I think the minimal interest outside of this forum tends to support the idea that the challenge isn't providing value for money.


Herein lies the problem. The challenge is not being USED. It simply sits out there waiting to be taken. As I previously stated, the MDC should be utilized as the tool it is. First, the JREF should do what it said it would do and take the challenge and throw it in people's faces. Rub their noses in a million dollars that is simply there for the taking. Second, use the MDC as an educational tool. The very nature of the rules and what it is meant to "test" make it an excellent focal point. Other people and organizations don't "care" about the challenge because it doesn't appear like the JREF even cares about it.

As has been discussed over and over again, education is the most important part of critical thinking. So educate, teach, demonstrate, allow the public (teachers, students, housewives, doctors, plumbers, electricians, etc...) to see what the JREF is all about. Use that giant neon million dollar sign attract attention, then use it as a guide to educate those people.

I know these are all lofty, and expensive goals, but a million dollars of operating capital isn't going to last long. It currently still exists, and is, all by itself, one of the biggest education tools the JREF has available; if they would only use it.


Just another two cents.


Santa

[NobbyNobbs]

Here's what a million dollars can do.

If it weren't for the MDC, I never would have heard of James Randi. (My dad told me about the challenge, back when it was $10,000 I think).

I wouldn't have discovered this website.
I wouldn't have lurked here for a year before my first post.
I wouldn't have heard about all the crazy things there are in the world that people believe in.
I wouldn't have witnessed how skeptics present arguments, counter with evidence, and debunk farcical claims.
When my father-in-law claimed telepathic powers, I wouldn't have known how to respond.

I'm sure there are ways other than the MDC to advertise this site, but I can't help wondering: how many other people out there are here because of the MDC? How many were once fence-sitters, and are no longer? How many people have learned how to think logically and rationally about the world, starting with just a simple reference to a pile of money?

I'm one. Any others?

[derekcbart]

Hi there.

As a member of the Independent Investigations Group (www.iigwest.org) I just wanted to mention that the IIG $50,000 Paranormal Challenge will continue. We have been involved in several JREF Challenge applications over the years and we will miss that partnership, but we can understand the reasoning behind it.

-Derek

[Rasmus]

Here's what a million dollars can do.

If it weren't for the MDC, I never would have heard of James Randi. (My dad told me about the challenge, back when it was $10,000 I think).

I wouldn't have discovered this website.
I wouldn't have lurked here for a year before my first post.
I wouldn't have heard about all the crazy things there are in the world that people believe in.
I wouldn't have witnessed how skeptics present arguments, counter with evidence, and debunk farcical claims.
When my father-in-law claimed telepathic powers, I wouldn't have known how to respond.

I'm sure there are ways other than the MDC to advertise this site, but I can't help wondering: how many other people out there are here because of the MDC? How many were once fence-sitters, and are no longer? How many people have learned how to think logically and rationally about the world, starting with just a simple reference to a pile of money?

I'm one. Any others?

Of course this doesn't tell us much. If the money was spend in other ways, then those might attract people just as the MDC used to. Maybe even better.

[chillzero]

I wouldn't have found the JREF if it weren't for the challenge, as I was sent here by someone challenging me on my own claims of psychic ability. The forums here have helped me turn my life in a whole new direction, so I am very sorry to see it go.

I learned very valuable lessons that I wasn't learning from any of my new-age peer groups, or anywhere else I turned for advice. I learned why I thought I could do what I claimed, and how to live with the fact that much of my world view was ... well... ridiculous.

I have made several friends that have vastly enriched my life, found answers when I needed them, and support when I needed that. Although much of this comes from the forum, I wouldn't have been here if not for the MDC in the first place. I know a few others here can say the same.

So - apart from the external face of the MDC... the knock-on effect of having people come here to see what it's about is going to be missed now, and I think that's sad.

[Santa666]

Here's what a million dollars can do.

If it weren't for the MDC, I never would have heard of James Randi. (My dad told me about the challenge, back when it was $10,000 I think).

I wouldn't have discovered this website.
I wouldn't have lurked here for a year before my first post.
I wouldn't have heard about all the crazy things there are in the world that people believe in.
I wouldn't have witnessed how skeptics present arguments, counter with evidence, and debunk farcical claims.
When my father-in-law claimed telepathic powers, I wouldn't have known how to respond.

I'm sure there are ways other than the MDC to advertise this site, but I can't help wondering: how many other people out there are here because of the MDC? How many were once fence-sitters, and are no longer? How many people have learned how to think logically and rationally about the world, starting with just a simple reference to a pile of money?

I'm one. Any others?


I wouldn't have found the JREF if it weren't for the challenge, as I was sent here by someone challenging me on my own claims of psychic ability. The forums here have helped me turn my life in a whole new direction, so I am very sorry to see it go.

I learned very valuable lessons that I wasn't learning from any of my new-age peer groups, or anywhere else I turned for advice. I learned why I thought I could do what I claimed, and how to live with the fact that much of my world view was ... well... ridiculous.

I have made several friends that have vastly enriched my life, found answers when I needed them, and support when I needed that. Although much of this comes from the forum, I wouldn't have been here if not for the MDC in the first place. I know a few others here can say the same.

So - apart from the external face of the MDC... the knock-on effect of having people come here to see what it's about is going to be missed now, and I think that's sad.

The two above quotes are EXACTLY what the MDC and the JREF are all about. The challenge is more than just a gimmick, it's more than just a challenge, it's very much like a giant neon question mark floating in the air with an arrow point down at a box. People hear about the MDC, they read about the MDC, and they want to know what it is all about. They want to know WHY some old guy is willing to put up a million dollars for a challenge. It's a way to get someone's foot in the door to critical thinking.

Simply put, the MDC is not used enough. People are not drawn to it because they are ignorant of it. People don't care because they don't understand.

Of course this doesn't tell us much. If the money was spend in other ways, then those might attract people just as the MDC used to. Maybe even better.

This is a legitimate question. The problem with spending the money in other ways is that it is being spent, then what? The MDC does not go away and is a perfect tool to draw others in. Use this tool instead of allowing opportunity to go to waste.



Santa

[Rasmus]

This is a legitimate question. The problem with spending the money in other ways is that it is being spent, then what?

It could just be invested less conservatively and without the possibility to cash it out on short notice. (The MDC depends on the fact that the money is *there* as soon as it's won, and that it is available in *full*.)

So, no, it wouldn't have to be spend in order to be made use of.

The MDC does not go away and is a perfect tool to draw others in. Use this tool instead of allowing opportunity to go to waste.

I am sceptical that it is the perfect tool. It might well be the best we have at the moment. But we might come up with something else, maybe even something better.

[arthwollipot]

I am sceptical that it is the perfect tool. It might well be the best we have at the moment. But we might come up with something else, maybe even something better.Any ideas?

[buzz lightyear]

MDC was a gimmick for PR. Its time has passed and time to move on.

True,....... I think the old trickster has taken this advice,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn481KcjvMo

[Abooga]

I´m also quite disappointed to see the MDC go. It was what made me come over here and get exposed to a lot of interesting facts.

I also agree that the MDC isn´t publicised enough. In spanish speaking countries almost nobody has ever heard about it. I was actually looking forward to have some more free time and a new faster internet connection and try to offer my "two cents" and do something to get Randi more available for spanish speakers (translations, blogging etc.). I´ve also been thinking that having a test carried out over here in Spain should attract a lot of local media attention on the MDC and skepticism in general (very necessary over here, and specially in Latin American countries). (Oh, how I´d love to participate in a test!)

I´ve never understood why the media doesn´t ever mention Randi and the MDC, when to me it looks like a great source of fascinating stories and ideas for tv programs etc. It almost looks like there is some sort of conspiracy to avoid featuring anything Jref related and keep people in the dark. Now, if some fool reports having seen a ghost he´ll get all the media attention he doesn´t deserve... I know it´s not a conspiracy, just human nature, but still...

Anyway, I´d vote to KEEP THE MDC.

Por favor!

[Reeco]

I see the demise of the MDC as a good thing, but it would be a shame to lose the debate it generates. I don't know if there is a way this can be retained without the million dollars sitting there, but if it could that would be great.

[Abooga]

The challenge is [...] very much like a giant neon question mark floating in the air with an arrow point down at a box.

Well said.

[tkingdoll]

I´ve never understood why the media doesn´t ever mention Randi and the MDC,

Because it's the same rhetoric every time. And if they report on a woo story and then mention the MDC more than a couple of times, they're creating a bias.

[Minkster]

I've had a few hours to digest this now, and I still feel its a bad thing.

The MDC was the reason I heard about James Randi. The MDC was the reason I looked up the JREF website. The MDC area of the site was often the most educational part, and as a result I learned a huge amount regarding scientific method, double-blind testing and the like - much of which I wouldn't have taken in had it not been for the challenge. The MDC was the main hook I used in discussion with fence-sitters and its illustrative power was clear to see. I even know other people who know Randi because of the MDC.

If theres some grand scheme to use the money for something specific which will blow the whole lid off woo in a big way then fair enough, but until I hear of such a thing I think the only thing that will happen is the money will gradually disappear and that will be that.

Someone else mentioned the timing of the announcement and the possible link to the winding up of the JREF, and this would make sense. The JREF as an organisation is still ridiculously small however manages to consistently punch above its weight in skeptic circles. Essentially its a library, a website, a few dedicated staffers and a ridiclously charasmatic head figure in Randi. The MDC may not be actually taken up by many people but its power is the mechanism by which the JREF has become even remotely 'well known'. Without the MDC and more specifically without Randi as a full-time driving force (the man will still be hugely influential but is bound to retire sooner rather than later), the JREF simply won't exist. Without an obvious successor and/or the size to be 'bigger than one person' it seems clear to me that its days are numbered. Without the two factors above and without a new mystery idea as mentioned earlier (which I am skeptical even exists), there is essentially a library that few people ever visit and a few staffers running a regular skeptic website.

For that reason, I suspect this is all geared towards a reduction of the whole JREF organisation over the next few years, with it disappearing completely whenever Randi either dies, or decides that he cannot continue flying the flag and needs to take things completely easy.

Personally, the ideal situation would be bringing in and over time grooming a successor as figurehead (who that would be is open to obvious debate) with the JREF *AND* the MDC remaining as Randi's ultimate legacy. Failing that, continuing to a point where the MDC and library can move over to ownership by the CSICOP would be a second-best option.

Of course, Randi may well be realising that the MDC will continue working but won't create a new 'impact' that feeds his adrenaline/ego/whatever in the time he has left, and so this is a way of having a last stab at really nailing something, but whilst I could understand that I fear it is a doomed strategy. We have already seen the changes last year to the MDC having the effectiveness of a damp rag, I suspect this desire to make such a fundamental change will end up the same way.

And finally, in closing (and apologies for boring everyone), I agree with whoever it was that suggested ending the award in the next few months if you are going to end it. Not only will it enable whatever projects are lined up (if such beasts exist) to be brought forward, but it will remove the obvious claims that the JREF is now biased towards people not succeeding with the challenge.

Now its been announced, can the thing. Keeping it for another two years is just pointless in the extreme.

But I'd rather it not go at all

[Mr. Stick]

I'm sorry to see the MDC go away. It was Randi's appearance on a programme where I saw him testing different claims from Russians that got me here, long before I made my first post. I think the MDC was part of the test, but I really don't remember.
The JREF has been vital in honing my own critical thinking skills, but the MDC has been a powerful tool in getting fence sitters, who wouldn't otherwise bother to investigate the matter themselves, to think about whether paranormal powers really exists. Without the MDC, it could easily end up as just being a matter of some saying they do, and some saying they don't.
If I tell someone in a casual conversation that no paranormal powers has ever been verified, how are they to check? If, on the other hand, I tell them about the MDC, it would be easy for them to check that the money is actually still there, and has never been collected, which naturally begs the question "why?"
I'm sure it wouldn't be the same if I told them that the money had been there for 10 years, but unfortunately wasn't anymore.

[ben m]

I have an idea!

How about Randi continues to run the Challenge, but lies about the $1M? The psychics say this is really easy to do---hacking into Goldman Sachs, the IRS, and the Florida DOR, presumably with the collusion of shadowy government agencies. The challenge would go pretty much the same way: professional psychics don't apply, the actual applicants don't win. It'd be like fishing with lures instead of with earthworms, right?

Of course, when a psychic begs off the challenge with the excuse "The money isn't real, anyway", either (a) we'd all snicker or (b) they'd win, because, otherwise, how could they have known?

;)

[blutoski]

I move we propose an X Prize for Paranormalism (http://www.xprize.org/x-prizes/propose-an-x-prize).

[NobbyNobbs]

I move we propose an X Prize for Paranormalism (http://www.xprize.org/x-prizes/propose-an-x-prize).

Isn't that basically what the MDC is?

[BadIdea]

A "Bad Idea" blog which actually thinks it's a good idea. That the site has a psychic ad on it may or may not be relevant.

It's not relevant, in part because as far as I can tell, it isn't true. As far as I know, I don't have any ads on the blog at all, much less a psychic one. I'd love to know what you took to be an ad though, or if wordpress is somehow magically not showing me and me alone the ads it has peppered all over the blog.

I think this is a smart move for the reasons I listed: because it will allow the MDC do be much more pointed. It now has a once in a lifetime deadline: that makes for much better PR. And once it's all over, the MDC will have a nice period at the end of it instead of an open-ended feel. If Sylvia Browne is going to avoid any and all objective testing in perpetuity, there comes a time when we can say enough is enough: she had ten YEARS and still couldn't get her act together.

Other challenges will probably fill the void, as well as, of course, just regular science. And meanwhile the JREF will have the flexibility to think up something even better. Think of it less as ending the challenge and more as starting a new chapter in advocacy.

[jojonete]

I move we propose an X Prize for Paranormalism (http://www.xprize.org/x-prizes/propose-an-x-prize).Isn't that basically what the MDC is?I had never heard about X-Prizes, but I've been reading the web site and it seems the answer is yes: it's basically an MDC. Now, if the JREF is withdrawing the MDC, an X-Prize could be a nice way to keep it going without tying up the JREF staff's time.
However, as of now, I see two problems with proposing an MDC-like xprize:

They ask for a detailed set of rules. Looking at their sample set of rules (http://www.xprize.org/themes/xtest/xprize/templates/sample_rules.html), I think the protocol for the paranormal demonstration would need to be stated in advance.
In the proposal form they ask explicitly: "Who do you think would fund this Prize?". Any volunteers? ;)

[The Atheist]

It's not relevant, in part because as far as I can tell, it isn't true. As far as I know, I don't have any ads on the blog at all, much less a psychic one. I'd love to know what you took to be an ad though, or if wordpress is somehow magically not showing me and me alone the ads it has peppered all over the blog.

No, I'm highly sorry, it was my mistake - I must have got you mixed up with someone else, and krelnik had already pointed it out to me. If I'd known you were a member here I would have already noted the stuff-up.

It's a most excellent blog, I've been reading lots of it since I realised the mistake, great collection of articles.

Should be bookmarked by everyone:

http://badidea.wordpress.com/

Think of it less as ending the challenge and more as starting a new chapter in advocacy.

I think we're all hoping that's the case.

[BadIdea]

No problem: I was more amused and confused than anything. I actually just signed up in order to defend my honor, but I shouldn't have worried: skeptics and scientists correct themselves and each other for a living. :)

In any case, not signing up here seems like a deficiency I should have remedied long ago. The very good thing is, however, that there are just so many great skeptical forums and sites now, it's hard to keep up with more than a few at a time!

[The Atheist]

Duh, I hadn't even realised that was your first post, either.

Welcome aboard!

If you manage to contribute in the style of your blog, you'll find a ready market around here - hope to see more of you!

[StoneRook]

Though I am unhappy that the MDC is being taken away, I can understand why it is being done.

Yes, it was a good "mud in the eye" thing you could say/point to woo people...

But we have all seen some of their responses,

"it's not real", "there is no money", "James Randi will not give a fair test....", etc...

Far to long, this money was held up for the belief of woo. Now it can do something non-woo.

I'm all for that.

I would suggest to all the people that do not want it to go away, raise your own million, then offer it again.

I would imagine the logistics in handling the challenge will make you come to the same end that JR came too.

Funny, how none of the "seers" saw this coming.....

[Rasmus]

No problem: I was more amused and confused than anything. I actually just signed up in order to defend my honor, but I shouldn't have worried: skeptics and scientists correct themselves and each other for a living. :)

In any case, not signing up here seems like a deficiency I should have remedied long ago. The very good thing is, however, that there are just so many great skeptical forums and sites now, it's hard to keep up with more than a few at a time!

I just want to point out that the MDC is drawing people here even when it's being discontinued!

[DRBUZZ0]

The million dollar challenge got some very good publicity and made a fool out of the Pear Audio guy not long ago. That was a pretty good example of it as a press tool.

I personally hope that the decision is reversed because I thought the million dollar challenge was what made the jref stand out amongst skeptic organizations (aside from Mr. Randi's great way of making points).

[colin]

Today’s explanation in Swift doesn’t make sense to me. I mean, that’s their job; that’s what they do; that’s how they educate people!

And in my opinion, it’s worked pretty well.

[The Atheist]

The million dollar challenge got some very good publicity and made a fool out of the Pear Audio guy not long ago. That was a pretty good example of it as a press tool.

The comment about Pear got me thinking:

And if you needed any more evidence that those who loudly accept the JREF million-dollar challenge speak with forked tongue, go to tinyurl.com/24ojlt and see what Audioholics Online A/V Magazine has to say about the comedy generated by Michael Fremer and Adam Blake, who have precipitously backed out of proving their claim that Pear Anjou speaker cables can be differentiated from ordinary cables. Yes, it’s a tired old horse, and very dead, but it’s good to see that responsible audiophile authorities are able to see just what a farce such a matter can become.

I accept entirely the premise that no "known" psychic is ever going to take the challenge.

On the other hand, when dealing with pseudoscience, it's not just a weapon, it's a Howitzer loaded with depleted-uranium shells. What would Randi have done to Pear without the MDC? Psychics and charlatans can claim all sorts of "psychic energy/negativity" as a defence, but with a profit-making, product-pushing entity, there's no doubt they're only in it for the money and the MDC can be used as a battering ram.

That's gonna hurt.

[DRBUZZ0]

The fact that the "big" psychics and other woo'ers won't take the challenge is not the point. Uri Geller or Sylvia Browne are not going to touch that. And it's pretty clear to anyone that if you even brought it up to them (which isn't going to happen because they choose their venues to be sympathetic such as Larry King or Montel) then they would mumble an excuse and try to change the subject or something.

Fine, be that as it may, I find that compelling. I have had friends who have been interested, even swayed by the fact that the million dollar challenge exists and that people have the opportunity to take it and nobody will.

What it does is it shuts up those who want to come out and make a ridiculous claim (such as Pear audio) or it keeps the others running from it.

[Creekfreak]

I have been in contact with Mr Randi and he has told me that the money will be spent on bigfoot research .

[chillzero]

Creek, you're a real funny guy.

sometimes.


:D

[davefoc]

Thanks for the link to fark.com on this. There were some funny comments over there. I especially liked:

Is he predicting there will be psychics after that and doesn't want to pay out?

Nope he just gave up the ghost

and:
The real psychics saw this coming and were just waiting it out

and cpd.d had a great bit about sylvia browne looking for the house phone to talk to Randi. I didn't quote it out of respect for the rights of the site, http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=3305688 , but I thought it was great.

As to how I feel about this:
Being a somewhat conservative individual I tend to not like change, but I think I understand where the JREF is coming from on this and my sense of it is that the organization made the right decision.

Years ago I wrote Randi suggesting that he develop a television program where he would investigate a wider range of issues. He may have something like that in mind now or perhaps he wants to focus more on specific con artists that are doing much more harm than the occasional dowser. Whatever Randi does I look forward to following his adventures in the years ahead.

[Tressa]

...Years ago I wrote Randi suggesting that he develop a television program where he would investigate a wider range of issues. He may have something like that in mind now or perhaps he wants to focus more on specific con artists that are doing much more harm than the occasional dowser. Whatever Randi does I look forward to following his adventures in the years ahead.
Can you imagine a Randied version of P&T's BS?! "Randi: Woo!" Or a set of DVDs with that sort of theme (for schools, clubs, personal, etc) and a lecture tour for promotion.

[Ron_Tomkins]

I would suggest to all the people that do not want it to go away, raise your own million, then offer it again.


Now wait a second.... you kinda gave me a idea.

What if the JREF opened a donation for people to give as much as they can and see how much money we can accumulate to continue the challenge?

... or something like that

[Dunstan]

Now wait a second.... you kinda gave me a idea.

What if the JREF opened a donation for people to give as much as they can and see how much money we can accumulate to continue the challenge?

... or something like that

According to Randi's latest Commentary, that's not really the issue; it's more about the staff time spend negotiating test protocols, etc. Of course, money could solve that problem, too, by funding a staff position focused on running the Challenge.

[The Atheist]

... it's more about the staff time spend negotiating test protocols, etc. ...

There's a very, very simple way around that. Instead of demanding media presence and rubbish like that, make all challenges contingent upon passing another sceptical challenge first.

There are other challenges spread around the world and I doubt any of them would mind taking up that slack. JREF could issue an approved list of challenges.

[Ryan O'Dine]

Now wait a second.... you kinda gave me a idea.

What if the JREF opened a donation for people to give as much as they can and see how much money we can accumulate to continue the challenge?

... or something like that


Or instead of continuing the old challenge, have the JREF forum host its own. Perhaps a TDC -- Thousand Dollar Challenge.

Especially for the paranormalists who show up here.

All in favor, raise my hand.









...Apologies to Steven Wright.

[Nucular]

Or instead of continuing the old challenge, have the JREF forum host its own. Perhaps a TDC -- Thousand Dollar Challenge.

Especially for the paranormalists who show up here.

I have to say, I like this idea - what do you picture, entirely online testing somehow (so only those claims amenable to such a test would qualify), or possibly established forum members signing up to supervise testing in their geographical area?

Although it would require JREF permission to happen here, which might be tricky given that they're scrapping their own prize.

Also there are probably lots of other problems such as protocol agreement etc. (even when we're discussing the JREF tests there's little consensus on the details). But it is a nice idea.

[Ryan O'Dine]

I have to say, I like this idea - what do you picture, entirely online testing somehow (so only those claims amenable to such a test would qualify), or possibly established forum members signing up to supervise testing in their geographical area?

Although it would require JREF permission to happen here, which might be tricky given that they're scrapping their own prize.

Also there are probably lots of other problems such as protocol agreement etc. (even when we're discussing the JREF tests there's little consensus on the details). But it is a nice idea.


I could see how the JREF proper would frown on the idea. Too much possibility for confusion.

However, if they were amenable, I personally was picturing using forum threads to generate a protocol. We already have practice in that on this very MDC forum.

I was also thinking we'd have members do the testing. Or ask skeptical groups to do it, much as the MDC is conducted.

Another problem, however, would be a need for lawyers. If we could get around that, I for one would be ready to donate.

[Nucular]

I could see how the JREF proper would frown on the idea. Too much possibility for confusion.

But there might be 'selling points' as it were - it should draw people, participants and spectators alike, to the forum and perhaps then to the JREF proper.

However, if they were amenable, I personally was picturing using forum threads to generate a protocol. We already have practice in that on this very MDC forum.

Yes, I think there are plenty of us here on the board who've bickered about correct protocols etc. and contributed to some of the official protocols too - but how would we know when there was a consensus? A time-limited poll perhaps?

I was also thinking we'd have members do the testing. Or ask skeptical groups to do it, much as the MDC is conducted.

Yes, there wouldn't be too much reason why it shouldn't quite closely resemble the MDC in that respect, I agree.

Another problem, however, would be a need for lawyers. If we could get around that, I for one would be ready to donate.

Lawyers to draw up terms similar to the MDC, lawyers or perhaps a bank to hold the money as Goldman-Sachs do for the MDC... what else do we need them for? If, or when, there's protest by a losing applicant there's the possibility that legal representation would be needed I suppose.

That could all be addressed by JREF support, but it all starts then getting more like it's an official JREF thing again.

[Nucular]

but how would we know when there was a consensus? A time-limited poll perhaps?

Actually, this could be solved in something like a moderated thread, maybe with one person appointed 'protocol officer' for each application, similar to Kramer/Jeff Wagg/RemieV.

[Ryan O'Dine]

Actually, this could be solved in something like a moderated thread, maybe with one person appointed 'protocol officer' for each application, similar to Kramer/Jeff Wagg/RemieV.


I like that idea. I imagine a protocol team, even with only two people, would take some of the pressure off an individual officer. And I certainly have the impression there are people chomping at the bit to be more active around here. This could potentially give them a nice opportunity.

As for lawyers, my main concern would be the almost inevitable disputes that would arise from failed tests. It's not immediately clear how those kinds of legal problems could be avoided.

[Pinocchio]

I guess in the end Randi will retire, pocket the million and escape to Hawaii with Sophia Loren. :D I mean, he's the closest thing to something paranormal. He's like a tireless magickal elf from a fairytale. He can pass for Doc, a dwarf from Snow White's castle, any day. He can just award the money to himself and win the challenge.:idea:

_______________________________________

I thought one of the main regulations of the Challenge was: it shall continue until the prize is awarded. I guess stuff like that can be arbitrarily changed, oops.:p

I feel it all started going downhill at about the time when Kramer left and the website's look (particularly the main banner) was modified to what looks like a symbol of mourning or a tribute to someone who is, er, dead?

I wish it wasn't so, but it seems like three things might soon disappear from the face of the earth:
Challenge
Randi
JREF

How is that for rational thinking?:jaw-dropp

So I guess the psychics win. They have more money, exposure, followers, and everything else the JREF would like to have, but can't achieve it. :boggled: A few more years, and those same psychics, healers and shamans will have successfully endured the James Randi scare... Peter Popoff is already celebrating.

R.I.P.:boxedin:

[Nucular]

And I certainly have the impression there are people chomping at the bit to be more active around here. This could potentially give them a nice opportunity.

Yes, I thought that too - doesn't seem to be many of them around at the moment though does there! Think we could run the TDC between the two of us? :p

[Cuddles]

Actually, this could be solved in something like a moderated thread, maybe with one person appointed 'protocol officer' for each application, similar to Kramer/Jeff Wagg/RemieV.

There would certainly need to be one person with the final say in things. I'm not sure it would work to have a different person for each test though, for consistency you'd want the same person every time.

I think one of the main problems would be documentation. It's all very well coming up with protocols and discussing self-tests and so on on a forum, but when contracts involving money get involved, everything needs to be written down and signed. While I don't know much about legal thingies, I suspect that if you have a challenge with a monetary prize, you have to have a registered office and someone officially in charge.

Having had a quick look into this, it may not be as difficult as I first though, in the UK at least. All that would need to be done would be to set up a registered charity. I'm not sure exactly how the money would be dealt with, and I suspect lawyers would need to be involved, but it doesn't actually seem too difficult at all. I'll look into this a bit more later when I have some time.

As for lawyers, my main concern would be the almost inevitable disputes that would arise from failed tests. It's not immediately clear how those kinds of legal problems could be avoided.

While the JREF is the subject of fairly regular litigation, as far as I'm aware none of it has been due to the challenge, either due to failed tests or anything else. I think the important part is the final contract. As long as that's a watertight legal document, there should be no grounds for legal action. As long as it is made clear that you are not obligated to test anyone, no-one can sue you for not testing them either. Obviously there would be the usual complaints about bias, cheating, the money not being there, and so on, but I think it would be restricted to whining and not anything legal.

[Hindmost]

On the lastest skeptics guide to the universe podcast, Randi talks about the MDC...take a listen.

glenn

[Ryan O'Dine]

Yes, I thought that too - doesn't seem to be many of them around at the moment though does there! Think we could run the TDC between the two of us? :p

No prob. You donate the money, square away the legal junk, work out protocols, and do the testing. I’ll take it upon myself to bravely handle the rest. :cool:


Having had a quick look into this, it may not be as difficult as I first though, in the UK at least. All that would need to be done would be to set up a registered charity. I'm not sure exactly how the money would be dealt with, and I suspect lawyers would need to be involved, but it doesn't actually seem too difficult at all. I'll look into this a bit more later when I have some time.

Be interesting to know if you come up with anything. I’m wondering, though, just how formal the challenge would have to be. When two people make a bar bet, there aren’t really major legal ramifications, are there? Up to $5,000 and you’re still in small claims court, at least in my home state according to a quick google. What if we didn’t promote it beyond a kind of bar bet, and just made sure we had a solid written agreement?


While the JREF is the subject of fairly regular litigation, as far as I'm aware none of it has been due to the challenge, either due to failed tests or anything else. I think the important part is the final contract. As long as that's a watertight legal document, there should be no grounds for legal action. As long as it is made clear that you are not obligated to test anyone, no-one can sue you for not testing them either. Obviously there would be the usual complaints about bias, cheating, the money not being there, and so on, but I think it would be restricted to whining and not anything legal.


This, actually, is comforting.

[Cuddles]

Be interesting to know if you come up with anything. I’m wondering, though, just how formal the challenge would have to be. When two people make a bar bet, there aren’t really major legal ramifications, are there? Up to $5,000 and you’re still in small claims court, at least in my home state according to a quick google. What if we didn’t promote it beyond a kind of bar bet, and just made sure we had a solid written agreement?

Well, I've looked a bit more and it all looks pretty simple really. In the UK, anything like this would be covered by the Gambling Act 2005 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2005/ukpga_20050019_en_1). As far as I can tell, competitions based on skill rather than chance have pretty much nothing governing them at all. As for accounting, small charities need to file an annual report and that's pretty much it. "Small" here meaning less than £100k income and less than a few million in assets. Also, to be registered as a charity in the UK only requires that the majority of assets are held in the UK or that the majority of trustees are resident here, so it could easily be set up here and still be an international prize. I imagine the situation is the same for most countries.

I've also emailed Randi to see what he thinks of this as an idea.

This, actually, is comforting.

Just to be clear, I don't actually have any inside knowledge of any lawsuits. I just haven't heard of any relating to the challenge.

[Cuddles]

I've also emailed Randi to see what he thinks of this as an idea.

Well, I had a reply and he seems to think it's a possibility. So, who would actually be interested in running/helping run a slightly-less-than-million-dollar challenge?

[Nucular]

Well, I had a reply and he seems to think it's a possibility. So, who would actually be interested in running/helping run a slightly-less-than-million-dollar challenge?

Well, I won't actually eat my hat, but I might chew it a bit - I'd have thought Randi would have summarily dismissed the idea. But, given that he hasn't, I for one am up for helping run a SLTMDC, as you put it, time permitting (I'm sure that's a caveat for everyone anyway).

But perhaps the most important question of all is... isn't there a cool acronym we could use? ;)

[Ryan O'Dine]

Well, I had a reply and he seems to think it's a possibility. So, who would actually be interested in running/helping run a slightly-less-than-million-dollar challenge?

Thanks for doing all the research, and especially communicating with Randi. I’m with Nucular in my surprise, but it’s sure a pleasant one.

As far as contributions, I’m willing to donate a little to the pot, and would love to interact with applicants (I can be ridiculously patient). Whether I could do much more would depend on what's required, but my interest is high.


But perhaps the most important question of all is... isn't there a cool acronym we could use? ;)

I tried to push this in another context, and it may not work here, but how about SANE -- the Skeptical Action NEtwork?



Also, I’m thinking of starting a thread about this in the Gen Skep subforum where it may get a wider audience. If there’s no objection, I’ll start one sometime tomorrow, probably in the AM, EST.

[Nucular]

I tried to push this in another context, and it may not work here, but how about SANE -- the Skeptical Action NEtwork?

Yes, I quite like the sound of that - the SANE Prize, or the SANE Challenge

I thought of the Paranormal And Pseudoscience Challenge (the PAP challenge), but that's slightly frivolous.

Or maybe the Extraordinary Claims Testing Organisation Prize (ECTOprize).

But I'm starting to remind myself of my sister's band, of which 'rehearsals' consisted of heated arguments about what they should be called, and no music ever got played :D

Also, I’m thinking of starting a thread about this in the Gen Skep subforum where it may get a wider audience. If there’s no objection, I’ll start one sometime tomorrow, probably in the AM, EST.

No objections here, that would be useful.

What needs to happen before this works? Presumably final permission won't be forthcoming from Randi until we send a formal proposal.

A mechanism for processing and holding donations would be a start - I have no clue about online moneytaking etc.

An account which produces interest which automatically goes straight onto the prize fund?

Maybe an incentive for donations akin to the 'forum donor' badge given to people who've given money to the forum?

A formal set of rules, plagiarised or otherwise.

Would we simply create an analogue of the JREF Challenge, or would we fiddle with the rules, for instance, the definition of 'testable claim', limits on re-application following failure, etc.?

All topics for the main thread, I suppose.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

How about a challenge with no prize at all? Then we can listen to all the people who used to say "I don't do it for the money" instead say "Why would I do it for free?"

~~ Paul

[arthwollipot]

Can someone post a link here to the main thread so that I don't miss it?

[DevilsAdvocate]

Sigh. I think I could win the Million Dollar Challenge with a psychic prediction that the JREF will not exist in 2015. Unfortunately, the prize would no longer be available.

This is the beginning of the end. There is an old saying: “never touch your principal”. It appears JREF is violation this axiom both figuratively and literally.

Another poster in support of the end of the MDC raised another old saying: “money attracts money”. The MDC is one million dollars of money attracting money. Once it is spent—then what?

The BIG QUESTION is what will JREF do with the one million dollars?

I don’t mean to be such a Cassandra, but I’m skeptical that JREF can effectively use the money to substantially influence people to accept scientifically proven facts over woowoo beliefs. Changing a mind is a long slow process of weighing in more convincing evidence for a belief than the weight of a very long held belief. It takes time. You can’t just throw a million bucks at it and expect it to stick.

So what will the JREF do? The only way it works is if JREF spends the money on promotion to get more money for JREF. Otherwise, the money is spent, the MCD is gone, and eventually Randi is gone as well. Then, the JREF is gone.

Will Randi do that and can he pull it off. There were previously big claims from Randi about going after the major charlatans-Sylvia Brown, John Edward, and so on. It didn’t happen.

I suspect the million dollars will be squandered away quietly on short lived events while the JREF dissipates to a little known ghost of the past.

I hope James Randi can prove me wrong.

[Imrational]

I've used the $1,000,000 Challenge many times to argue against various woo-meisters. It's a shame to see it end.

To be honest, I always thought it was an insurance policy. Couldn't that be an option? Collect some small amount of funds and use that to bankroll a million dollar insurance policy? It wouldn't carry the weight of actually having the money on hand, but it'd fill the gap of not having anything.

I do not feel anger at Randi or anyone else regarding this. Randi has contributed so much to the cause of Skepticism. It's up to each of us to carry a candle into the dark.

[Cuddles]

All topics for the main thread, I suppose.

OK, I started a new thread here ("http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3348872#post3348872).

[danfcon1]

Is it be possible to obtain a bond from an insurance company that would guarantee the prize? I seem to remember that Lloyds of London assures against all sorts of loony things from happening, perhaps they could sell JREF a bond at a reasonable price that would permit the challenge to continue, yet allow the capital to be released.

[Cuddles]

How about a challenge with no prize at all? Then we can listen to all the people who used to say "I don't do it for the money" instead say "Why would I do it for free?"

~~ Paul

This has been suggested a few times. I think this could work if done by someone as prominent as Randi, since getting him to admit that an ability was in fact real would count as a big victory for most woos, even without money involved. However, it really opens the field for accusations that he is scared of actually putting anything substantial at risk. Since it is easy for someone to just donate the prize to charity, this excuse has never really been a sensible one anyway. Claims that Randi is a fraud or biased or whatever can carry weight with those inclinded to believe that sort of thing, but refusing to help people by taking money away from the evil skeptics and giving it to those in need can't look good in from any point of view. In any case, Randi has made it clear that the money is not the problem, it is the time and resources needed. Having no prize wouldn't help that at all.

Is it be possible to obtain a bond from an insurance company that would guarantee the prize? I seem to remember that Lloyds of London assures against all sorts of loony things from happening, perhaps they could sell JREF a bond at a reasonable price that would permit the challenge to continue, yet allow the capital to be released.

I think this is how The Atheist does his challenge, except with a betting shop rather than an insurance company. I doubt any insurer would touch it, but it's certainly possible as a bet. There are two main problems though. The first is that it is even easier for the woos to claim the money isn't there, since it actually isn't. There is the promise to pay it, but given that they question the legitiamcy of bonds and banking in general, this is unlikely to inspire much confidence. Also, it takes the final descision out of the hands of the challenge and puts it with the bookie. This shouldn't be a problem since legal contracts would be involved, but getting third parties involved will always complicate things.

Secondly, this would cost money. The point of the challenge is that the money is sitting there waiting to be paid out. If no-one wins the challenge, no-one loses anything, apart from expenses. To go the betting or insuring route, money needs to be paid out. Insurance might be a yearly sum, betting might be an amount each test. Either way, you would be paying for the privilege of testing people. If there was a good chance of somenoe winning, this could save money compared with paying it all yourself, but given that the whole point of the challenge is that we don't believe anyone will ever win, this would be a whole lot mor expensive.

[steenkh]

However, it really opens the field for accusations that he is scared of actually putting anything substantial at risk.
The Challenge is dependent on the possibility that a claimant performing as she claims she can, will win a substantial amount of money. It is not dependent on the money being "at risk", although Randi originally used the expression of putting his money where his mouth is".

[Cuddles]

The Challenge is dependent on the possibility that a claimant performing as she claims she can, will win a substantial amount of money. It is not dependent on the money being "at risk", although Randi originally used the expression of putting his money where his mouth is".

You're only looking at this from the point of view of reality. You have to consider it from the perspective of someone who actually believes that they have paranormal powers. From their point of view, the only reason for refusing to put a prize at stake is because you think you will lose it. It really is entirely dependent on there being something at stake, otherwise most people just won't see the point in it, and most people is what the challenge is all about.

[steenkh]

It really is entirely dependent on there being something at stake, otherwise most people just won't see the point in it, and most people is what the challenge is all about.
I beg to differ. It has been made abundantly clear that the prize money was a donation that was held out of reach of Randi. He has not had his own money at risk for a long time.

Besides, it is an error to measure the success of the MDC in terms of how many claimants who accept, and in what degree the claimants are deluded. The success of the MDC lies in its mere existence. Whenever I have mentioned the MDC to woos and "normal" people, the winning argument was that most psychics, healers etc will not apply for the MDC, and that the only ones to actually apply were obviously deluded. Sane people can see the logic in that, and they know that if these psychics knew they could do as they claim, they would not hesitate in scooping up an easy million dollars. The risk for Randi is not a factor here.

Even hardcore woos can see the point in the fact that the most recent challenge test was of a woman who thought she could make people pee involuntarily, whereas Sylvia Browne stays a mile away from the Challenge. Only then comes the adversarial arguments into play about the money not existing, the whole setup being rigged, or that real psychics would never want to be tested. These arguments are arguments of desperation because the MDC is such a devastating card on our hand, and to keep the card, we need to be able to counter those argument with proofs that the money exists, that the tests are fair, and that the test is not a humiliation of the claimant.

[jojonete]

OK, I started a new thread here ("http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3348872#post3348872).
Bad link. You mean here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3348872).

[William Smith]

Is it be possible to obtain a bond from an insurance company that would guarantee the prize? I seem to remember that Lloyds of London assures against all sorts of loony things from happening, perhaps they could sell JREF a bond at a reasonable price that would permit the challenge to continue, yet allow the capital to be released.

This (http://www.immortality.co.nz/) seems to run on a similar principle, if I'm not mistaken. Forum member The Atheist will most likely respond to sensible inquiries you might have.

And welcome to the forum, danfcon1.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Well, I had a reply and he seems to think it's a possibility. So, who would actually be interested in running/helping run a slightly-less-than-million-dollar challenge?


I would.:)

[zenotter]

How about a challenge with no prize at all? Then we can listen to all the people who used to say "I don't do it for the money" instead say "Why would I do it for free?"

~~ Paul
That would be neat! Heck, a diamond-encrusted titanium diploma or certificate from the JREF with "(insert name here) took the challenge and won!" should be as prestigious if not more, you think?

I'd love to see the funds used for Education, like ongoing hosting of podcasts, vodcasts, forums, etc. Maybe some 30 minute weekly show on PBS or the BBC or whatever satellite channel would bring more awareness of science vs unprovable woo, and do a lot more for the Foundation than the MDC "gimmick" would.

I still hate to see it go, since it's helped so much and I think it can still help much, but there are other avenues for promoting skepticism these days and the million would certainly be useful if applied correctly.

[Speed of Light]

The media requirement makes it easier for those who are likely to fail.
It is therefore not a bona fide challenge, but a meaningless publicity gimmick

[William Smith]

The media requirement makes it easier for those who are likely to fail.
It is therefore not a bona fide challenge, but a meaningless publicity gimmick

Perhaps you should repeat your latin classes. Or your comprehension 101s. Or both.

It looks like a pattern in your posting history, since this was one of the most puzzling claims ever and it showed you probably had no idea what you were talking about. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64644&highlight=speed+light)

Sour grapes, Speed of Light?

[casebro]

JREF isn't going to spend the million. It isn't JREF's to spend. It was put in trust by the donor. It's the donor who wants to spend it. Or his heirs ? ( possible Johny Carson link?)

Unless the 'donor' is Randi, who had a recent near fatal experience, which may have changed his long term outlook, as facing one's own mortality may do.

Otherwise, some other donor, or a handfull of smaller donors, could keep the MDC going? But no talk of that, so I'm thinking it's Randi's decision, probably looking towards retirement.

Or maybe Randi knows something we don't? Re: the reality of paranormality? ;)

[davefoc]

J

Or maybe Randi knows something we don't? Re: the reality of paranormality? ;)
:)

[Cuddles]

JREF isn't going to spend the million. It isn't JREF's to spend. It was put in trust by the donor. It's the donor who wants to spend it. Or his heirs ? ( possible Johny Carson link?)

Unless the 'donor' is Randi, who had a recent near fatal experience, which may have changed his long term outlook, as facing one's own mortality may do.

Otherwise, some other donor, or a handfull of smaller donors, could keep the MDC going? But no talk of that, so I'm thinking it's Randi's decision, probably looking towards retirement.

Or maybe Randi knows something we don't? Re: the reality of paranormality? ;)

Randi's already answered this. The money isn't the issue, it's simply that he's fed up of wasting so much time with the challenge when the vast majority of applicants are incapable of following simple rules or are just insane. Instead, he wants to divert the JREF's time and resources to more useful things, although exactly what they will be has not yet been clarified, other than continuing, and possibly expanding, existing things like the scholarships. The donor has agreed to let Randi use the money for other purposes when the challenge ends.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Hey, I have a question.

The day the Challenge ends, is there gonna be some kind of social meeting or something? Since the challenge is ending, there should be some sort of goodbye anniversary I think. I´m asking of course, because if there is, I would like to come.

[davefoc]

Hey, I have a question.

The day the Challenge ends, is there gonna be some kind of social meeting or something? Since the challenge is ending, there should be some sort of goodbye anniversary I think. I´m asking of course, because if there is, I would like to come.

That sounds like a nice idea to me. I hope the powers that be are thinking along those lines.

On the Johnny Carson rumor above: Does anybody know the source of it? Did it just become a rumor because it's plausible or was there ever the tiniest bit of substance beyond that to it? I thought we were going to learn the truth when Carson died. I did an internet search and came across some discussion where several people said that they thought it was Carson. One individual said that Randi hinted it was. Did Randi hint that it was Carson?

I wonder who is in on the secret.

Randi?
Linda?
Jeff?
Lawyers?
Bankers?
Carlos? (Jose Olliver)
Kramer?
Penn or Teller?
Spouse or relatives of the donor?
Renata? (She's the person I first heard the rumor from)
Darat?


I wonder if there is any chance Randi would answer even these kind of tangential questions about the issue.

Has Randi confirmed at least that he is not the donor?

[skeptic of oz]

Ah surprise, surprise...NO CHALLENGERS!:jaw-dropp
Really that alone should tell people something. Not Skeptics mind you. I don't think any skeptic should be surprised but this is the sort of thing that's good to mention to those people who say that skeptics are "party poopers", cynics and are mean-spirited.

The paranormal "practictioners"just don't like lab trials and they use those well worn excuses. i.e. "we can't just make it work anytime"ït won't work under lab conditions"etc.
Maybe this will convince many of those on the fence juts how suspect paranormal claims are when a million dollars won't entice them to try and prove their claims. But then...

I'm reminded of James Randi's "floating duck" metaphor.

[Rodney]

Ah surprise, surprise...NO CHALLENGERS!:jaw-dropp
Really that alone should tell people something. Not Skeptics mind you. I don't think any skeptic should be surprised but this is the sort of thing that's good to mention to those people who say that skeptics are "party poopers", cynics and are mean-spirited.

The paranormal "practictioners"just don't like lab trials and they use those well worn excuses. i.e. "we can't just make it work anytime"ït won't work under lab conditions"etc.
Maybe this will convince many of those on the fence juts how suspect paranormal claims are when a million dollars won't entice them to try and prove their claims. But then...

I'm reminded of James Randi's "floating duck" metaphor.
You might want to familiarize yourself with this thread -- http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=113290 -- If the JREF wants a lab trial of the Ganzfeld, it should modify its rules in the way I suggest.

[thaiboxerken]

Yea, modify the rules so that the results can be ambiguous and that cheating can occur. Nice. :rolleyes:

[Rodney]

Yea, modify the rules so that the results can be ambiguous and that cheating can occur. Nice. :rolleyes:
Here are the modifications to the Challenge Rules that I recommended in my e-mail:

"(1) An applicant must pass a preliminary test, in which the general
criterion for success will be that the applicant must perform at
significantly above the chance level. In tests where the odds of
success can be readily calculated -- such as numbers guessing -- the
applicant must perform at least at the P=.001 level; that is, the odds
must be only one in one thousand that the applicant could have
achieved that performance level by random chance. (However, if the
applicant achieves a lesser, but above chance, performance level in a
limited number of tests -- for example, if the applicant performs at
the P=.05 level in 20 trials -- the preliminary test may be extended
on a different day or days to include more trials.) If the applicant
passes the preliminary test, a final test will be administered, in
which the performance level must meet a significantly more stringent
criterion for the million dollar prize to be awarded. In tests where
the odds of success can be readily calculated, the applicant must
perform at least at the P=.000001 level; that is, for the prize to be
awarded, the odds must be only one in one million that the applicant
could have achieved that performance level by random chance.

"(2) All protocols, including time-consuming ones such as Ganzfeld
experiments, are eligible for the Challenge; or

"(2a) Some time-consuming protocols, such as Ganzfeld experiments, are
not eligible for the Challenge due to the impact on JREF resources."

Please explain how these modifications would be ambiguous or permit cheating.

[thaiboxerken]

"(1)

Introduces ambiguity and a goal of simply cheating the odds instead of proving a phenomena.


"(2) All protocols, including time-consuming ones such as Ganzfeld
experiments, are eligible for the Challenge; or

All protocols = protocols that allow for cheating. If all protocols are eligible, then those protocols that are shoddy or outright stupid will be allowed as well.

[JoeEllison]

Yea, modify the rules so that the results can be ambiguous and that cheating can occur. Nice. :rolleyes:

By "nice" you mean 'stupid, dishonest, and not in a million goddamned years', right?

[Rodney]

Introduces ambiguity and a goal of simply cheating the odds instead of proving a phenomena.
So if someone can beat odds of 1 in a billion (1 in a thousand in the preliminary test, followed by 1 in a million in the final test) in a controlled study, that's not good enough to win the million dollars?

All protocols = protocols that allow for cheating. If all protocols are eligible, then those protocols that are shoddy or outright stupid will be allowed as well.
I'm obviously talking about fair protocols and am simply requesting clarification as to whether time-consuming protocols, such as Ganzfeld experiments, are eligible for the million dollar prize. Why can't the JREF answer this simple question?

[steenkh]

I'm obviously talking about fair protocols and am simply requesting clarification as to whether time-consuming protocols, such as Ganzfeld experiments, are eligible for the million dollar prize. Why can't the JREF answer this simple question?
As far as I have understood, these protocols have never been ruled out, but they have never been tested through an application. I am not sure if there would be a problem with time-consumption other than the cost, which the claimant is going to pay anyway, but there has been a tradition that the testers are working unpaid.

[Cuddles]

I'm obviously talking about fair protocols and am simply requesting clarification as to whether time-consuming protocols, such as Ganzfeld experiments, are eligible for the million dollar prize. Why can't the JREF answer this simple question?

Because no-one has ever tried to apply with one. Until someone does so, the JREF simply doesn't care. This really isn't difficult to understand.

[thaiboxerken]

I think Rodney figured out a way to cheat the test. That's to get the testers to allow you to cheat. He thinks it'll work, but I don't know of any skeptic that would fall for his silly tactic.

[thaiboxerken]

So if someone can beat odds of 1 in a billion (1 in a thousand in the preliminary test, followed by 1 in a million in the final test) in a controlled study, that's not good enough to win the million dollars?

I guess that would depend on the agreed-upon protocol, wouldn't it? The results would have to be self-evident and not the product of number-magic and mathematical manipulation.


I'm obviously talking about fair protocols and am simply requesting clarification as to whether time-consuming protocols, such as Ganzfeld experiments, are eligible for the million dollar prize. Why can't the JREF answer this simple question?

Why can't you get those people to simply apply to find out?

[davefoc]

Why can't you get those people to simply apply to find out?

As a casual reader of test descriptions and test protocol discussions over the years my sense of it is that JREF wasn't too enthused about very long, boring tests designed to tease out a tiny positive result so I suspect it is possible to find something resembling rejection of Ganzfield type experiments in the data base of test discussion protocols. (Note I'm making a weak claim and don't intend to back it up with evidence, please feel free to mock me for this).

If there was a paranormal effect out there it is very well masked and it might well be that the only way to detect it was with some very tedious testing. If JREF was a research agency designed to find a paranormal effect I think that is where they might focus their efforts.

But that is not what JREF sees as their function. They might be willing to be involved with a Ganzfield type test if somebody else footed the bill and their only role was to evaluate and approve protocols and to verify compliance. I don't think a credible researcher has ever come forward with such a proposal though and given what I see as the lack of definitive results with Ganzfield experiments done to date and the boring nature of the experiments I am not surprised that JREF isn't too enthused about pursuing this area.

[petre]

As a casual reader of test descriptions and test protocol discussions over the years my sense of it is that JREF wasn't too enthused about very long, boring tests designed to tease out a tiny positive result so I suspect it is possible to find something resembling rejection of Ganzfield type experiments in the data base of test discussion protocols. (Note I'm making a weak claim and don't intend to back it up with evidence, please feel free to mock me for this).

If there was a paranormal effect out there it is very well masked and it might well be that the only way to detect it was with some very tedious testing. If JREF was a research agency designed to find a paranormal effect I think that is where they might focus their efforts.

But that is not what JREF sees as their function. They might be willing to be involved with a Ganzfield type test if somebody else footed the bill and their only role was to evaluate and approve protocols and to verify compliance. I don't think a credible researcher has ever come forward with such a proposal though and given what I see as the lack of definitive results with Ganzfield experiments done to date and the boring nature of the experiments I am not surprised that JREF isn't too enthused about pursuing this area.

I was unable to find it in a quick search, but there was a test protocol submitted once where an applicant claimed the ability to control the direction a flame would hang off a candle with greater-than-expected frequency.

More recently, there was a protocol negotiation on astrology where the applicant was unable to accept a field of choices larger than 2 at a time, which caused any meaningful test to be prohibitively long.

Just two examples I can think of that relate to small effects falling outside the scope of the challenge.

[thaiboxerken]

Part of the challenge rules is that the applicant pays for the costs of testing, so all the Ganzfield people need is money. But even before this, they need to actually apply for the test.

[William Smith]

Here are the modifications to the Challenge Rules that I recommended in my e-mail:

"(1) An applicant must pass a preliminary test, in which the general
criterion for success will be that the applicant must perform at
significantly above the chance level. In tests where the odds of
success can be readily calculated -- such as numbers guessing -- the
applicant must perform at least at the P=.001 level; that is, the odds
must be only one in one thousand that the applicant could have
achieved that performance level by random chance. (However, if the
applicant achieves a lesser, but above chance, performance level in a
limited number of tests -- for example, if the applicant performs at
the P=.05 level in 20 trials -- the preliminary test may be extended
on a different day or days to include more trials.) If the applicant
passes the preliminary test, a final test will be administered, in
which the performance level must meet a significantly more stringent
criterion for the million dollar prize to be awarded. In tests where
the odds of success can be readily calculated, the applicant must
perform at least at the P=.000001 level; that is, for the prize to be
awarded, the odds must be only one in one million that the applicant
could have achieved that performance level by random chance.

"(2) All protocols, including time-consuming ones such as Ganzfeld
experiments, are eligible for the Challenge; or

"(2a) Some time-consuming protocols, such as Ganzfeld experiments, are
not eligible for the Challenge due to the impact on JREF resources."

Please explain how these modifications would be ambiguous or permit cheating.

You should not expect the rules to be changed. At all.

[thaiboxerken]

I think the rules should be changed to allow me to cheat because I could really use a million dollars.

[dbw]

I read that the MDC is ending in 2010. How come? Are there any plans to continue it with other funds? I'd be willing to offer $1000 (I don't have $10000).

[William Smith]

According to the JREF the Challenge served its purpose, ties up too many resources and the prize money could be better used elsewhere (e.g. education).

[William Smith]

SWIFT January 04, 2008. (http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/144/1/#i4)