Please help with the "Wall of Harm"

[krelnik]

Skeptics, I need your help. But first, a story. (Apologies for the length, I promise it's worth it).

A couple of months ago I was thinking about the topic of the upcoming TAM: Skepticism & Activism (http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/48/39/). I thought I should find a project to work on to be more of a positive contributor to the skeptical community. Around that time, this Sylvia Browne thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=95625) got me thinking about the “what’s the harm” idea that comes up periodically on (http://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/2007/05/doggerel-80-whats-harm.html) skeptic (http://skepdic.com/refuge/harmarchive.html) websites (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=what_is_the_harm.php). There are many (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=35081) threads (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=171) on (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=77890) this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=22655) here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=24984) at (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=59197) JREF (http://forums.randi.org/tags/index.php/harm/) as well.

I like the harm discussions that include actual cases, but there's two problems with them. One is that the news links within tend to expire (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=37901) pretty quickly, and the details of the stories get lost. Another is that this information is scattered around the web and not easily found. As a result, you don’t easily get a sense of scope.

Thinking about scope, I flashed on an image of the Vietnam Memorial in Washington DC (http://thewall-usa.com/). If you’ve never seen it, it is a huge black stone wall that has carved into it the names of all of the 58,000+ Americans who died in that war. Standing in front of it can fill you with a sense of awe. There are several reasons it is a powerful experience, but one is that it really drives home the scope. People in general have a hard time with large numbers. You can intellectually understand the scope of "58,000 people died," but seeing those names on that wall stretching out for hundreds of feet creates an emotional impact.

It occurred to me that we skeptics could use something like that to create an emotional impact of the power of non-critical thinking. Perhaps this can become a tool to keep ourselves motivated. Of course, I’m not proposing we build a stone monument. But we can build one made of bits.

And so I present "The Wall of Harm" currently temporarily located here: krelnik.home.mindspring.com/harm/.

As I write this, it contains info on 2,396 people who have died and 17,631 people who have been hurt in some way by some form of woo. The cases are grouped by categories for browsing, and every one includes a supporting link or two.

My general philosophy on what cases I’ve included:

Good documentation. I avoided anonymous web postings, unless the site posting it is very well trusted. Mostly I used news links (often two) or scientific journal papers.
Clear harm. Someone was injured or died, or lost significant money as a direct or indirect result of some type of woo. "Wasted their free time for years ghost-hunting" is not compelling. "Committed suicide after replacing anti-depressants with homeopathy," on the other hand, is compelling.
Details, details, details. Cases with name, date, place and especially a victim photo are more compelling.
Recent. I stayed within the last fifty years. After all, are stories about people believing crazy stuff back in 1607 in any way surprising?
No "hate crimes". There are too many of these, they'd overwhelm the other categories. And, like ancient stuff, they aren't surprising to anyone.So what do I want from you?

The Purpose of this Thread:

DO: Help me find more cases to add.
DO: Help me find categories I haven’t covered. There has got to be a cryptozoologist who drowned in Loch Ness, or a UFO person who caught pneumonia camping out to wait for the aliens to arrive. Help me find them!
DO: Offer corrections on the existing data. Note that cases can appear in multiple categories, feel free to point out opportunities I’ve missed in that area. (The religion areas could probably use some help in tagging).
DO: Comment on the overall presentation and ways to make it more compelling. (Yes, I know my HTML is lame).NOT the Purpose of this Thread:

DO NOT: Argue that some of these folks brought it on themselves.
DO NOT: Argue about the value of anecdotes.
DO NOT: Argue about how as skeptics we should be more scientific and precise than this.
DO NOT: Argue about causality vs. correlation between the woo and the harm in these cases.If you are compelled to talk about any of those four things, please read this first: krelnik.home.mindspring.com/harm/critics.html. If you still want to comment, threads are free. Please start your own thread and tag it with "wall of harm" and I promise I’ll join you.

PLEASE do not blog about the wall of harm yet. Do not post it anywhere but on this forum. It is only in prototype form, a "beta" if you will. I plan to clean it up based on your comments here and move it to a more permanent home very soon. At that time I’ll be begging you to link to it, so be patient.

I would like to thank JeffWagg, scotth, ottle, Cleon, RemieV, moopet, Zygar, Loon and others in the JREF IRC channel who helped me with links and suggestions as I worked on this.

[arthwollipot]

Sounds like a good idea - although I'm not sure what I personally can contribute. You have all my moral support though.

[Aepervius]

overall presentation suggestion
If you want to have a psychological impact, take the picture of a granite monument (or even the true one of vietnam, or 9/11 but this could land you in hot water so an anonym granite tomb might do the trick). Then photoshop out the name in the monument. Then add the name of the victim & wounded. Above add "fallen victim of (insert wooism)" list_of_name. "fallen victim of (another wooism)" list_of_name etc....

In other word, make it a true wall of shame. Shock value.

As it is right no your web site is... bland.

PS: I do not have real artistic skills, but I could maybe find such a photo and add a granite texture over the name if you wish.

[DeVega]

Great idea Krelnik, well done! I can see you've already done a huge amount of work on this. I don't have much constructive to offer, I'm afraid - but I just wanted to lend my support too. I know other here have screeds of such information - Kelly, on the missing persons and RSL or Enny on Psychics...

Good luck with the project!

[kosai]

Aepervius, something like this? I made it in Photoshop as a joke but it could have a much more somber design to it...

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1502/gameovertaggedgz2.jpg
By travisjd (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/travisjd) at 2008-01-09

[RSLancastr]

Krelnik, I think that this is a very worthy project.

After a quick look, a few comments:

1. Audience: I think you should write it for a wider audience, not just for skeptics. In fact, I think that if you write it with "believers" and the families/friends of believers in mind as your audience, the site could be more beneficial, and still be of great use to skeptics as well. One way to do this would be to eliminate the use of the word "woo," and replace it with a less inflammatory term or phrase.

2. Presentation: While the content is what is important, the presentation can make it much more professional and help with the impact.

3. Database: If you are serious about maintaining and enlarging the site, you should give very serious thought to putting the information in a database, and use some database-driven application to create the pages on the fly, rather than your maintaining each page by hand. As you add more and more entries to the Wall, this will become more and more unwieldy, and will limit your ability to make changes to the overall site. I made the same mistake with the SSB site, and regret it. Perhaps Scotth could give you some advice in this area.

4. Links: Your links to other information could benefit from roll-over text to help someone decide whether to click on the link or not. Or, aech link could have a description next to it, such as those used at the bottom of Snopes.com entries. This is yet another area where a database-driven approach would help you. You might also consider making these external links open to a separate browser window. I prefer this approach, but it may be a personal preference.

These are some initial thoughts. Again, I think it is a worthy project, and a wonderful idea. Congrats on following through with it!

[tkingdoll]

Superb idea, well done.

As RSL says, this could be a powerful tool if aimed at believers, I would try and make it as 'neutral' as you can, as those who will learn the most from it may be put off by any obvious signs of skeptic bias.

I think you have something really useful here. When it's finished I will certainly use your figures as an illustration of the harm caused. Perhaps this will be the new rhetoric to replace the MDC!

[Spektator]

Krelnik, I think you could add Peter Sellers to the list of famous people harmed by charlatans. If I recall correctly, he knew he needed heart surgery, dreaded it, postponed it, and actually flew halfway around the world to consult a "psychic surgeon" shortly before he had his fatal heart attack; he died on 24 July 1980.

[krelnik]

1. Audience: I think you should write it for a wider audience, not just for skeptics. In fact, I think that if you write it with "believers" and the families/friends of believers in mind as your audience, the site could be more beneficial, and still be of great use to skeptics as well. One way to do this would be to eliminate the use of the word "woo," and replace it with a less inflammatory term or phrase.


That's a great idea, I'll have to think about how to thread that through the whole thing.


3. Database: If you are serious about maintaining and enlarging the site, you should give very serious thought to putting the information in a database


Actually, it already is in a database. I quickly learned that many of the stories fit in multiple categories, and I definitely didn't want to be copying around info. Also some of the supporting URLs cover multiple stories, and I didn't want to be copying those around either.

It's an offline database right now, I run a little program I wrote on my PC that spits out the HTML, which I then upload. If it snowballs and I start getting 20 additions a day or something, I'll definitely transition it to an online database and dynamically generated pages.


4. Links: Your links to other information could benefit from roll-over text to help someone decide whether to click on the link or not.


I agree, and that capability is actually already there. (Click on Acupuncture then hover over the third link). I just haven't filled in the roll over text in the database yet. I'll work on getting that fixed today.

You might also consider making these external links open to a separate browser window. I prefer this approach, but it may be a personal preference.


Oh, I hadn't thought of that.... good idea.

Thanks for the comments, all very good ones.

[RSLancastr]

Comedian Andy Kaufman also went to a psychic surgeon not long before he died, but I don't know if he died because he relied on the quack, or if he was beyond medical help by that point anyway. I seem to recall it was the latter, but am uncertain.

[krelnik]

Krelnik, I think you could add Peter Sellers to the list of famous people harmed by charlatans.

Oooh, thanks. Via Wikipedia I found a link to support that (http://www.exn.ca/stories/2000/08/21/55.asp) (with a quote from Randi, who personally spoke to Sellers about this).

Part I of the same story (http://www.exn.ca/stories/2000/08/21/54.asp) also mentions Andy Kaufmann getting psychic surgery for his lung cancer. (I had heard that about Kaufmann before but had forgotten it).

I think I need a psychic surgery category now. Many thanks, Spek!

[krelnik]

Thanks for all the help, folks! I like the suggestion to make the text of the site more neutral, to attract believers.

I need a term to replace "woo", however. What's a good term that sounds neutral, which encompasses all the crazy stuff we refer to when we say "woo"?

--Tim Farley

P.S. I just updated the site with the two cases mentioned above and a new Psychic surgery category.

[kosai]

You can include this article in your 419 page:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/05/15/060515fa_fact


The more I've looked at the site, I think it's a great idea... I am a graphic designer (but I work in print not web) so I have a little input for you. I would take the "granite" backgrounds from behind the stories, it really isn't good for readability. Also, I don't particularly like the "i" icons for links as it's not super apparent what those are for. If you want some help with the design aspects, I'd be glad to donate some time. Overall though I love the simplicity of the design on the main page, I might just add 1 or 2 graphic elements like a header on the top of the page instead of using just text. I made a simple one for you you could try out on the page if you wish.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6164/wthwy4.jpg
By travisjd (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/travisjd) at 2008-01-09

feel free to use it as is or we can discuss it more. Great job, keep it up!

[RSLancastr]

Actually, it already is in a database.Ah, execllent.

I quickly learned that many of the stories fit in multiple categories, and I definitely didn't want to be copying around info.Exactly.

It's an offline database right now, I run a little program I wrote on my PC that spits out the HTML, which I then upload.I did that with one of my early sites. It's a good intermediate step.

I agree, and that capability is actually already there. (Click on Acupuncture then hover over the third link).Ah!

[Thing]

This is brilliant, huge congratulations. Very quickly 'cos I'm on my way out the door:
1 Transcendental has an s in it;

2 It might at some stage need a FAQ addressing questions such as "this person had XXXX, that's what killed them not the YYYY, medical science can't always cure XXXX".

3 How about a system of traffic light colours like on snopes, red for definitely killed by the woo, amber for woo present at time of death etc?

Again I think it's wonderful.

[RSLancastr]

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6164/wthwy4.jpg
By travisjd (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/travisjd)
Nice! The question mark reflects the "what," but it would be nice if there were a graphic element representing "harm" as well.

What if you distorted the word "harm" a little? Or made it look "broken"?

Or it might be nice if the "what" and the "harm" could be in one graphic element, such as the question mark next to... something.

Just knocking ideas around.

[ObscureReferenceMan]

This is definitely a Good Thing. Please keep us updated!

Small anecdote... Years ago, I saw Randi at a NY Skeptic (I believe) gig. At the close of his talk on psychic surgery, he said something along the lines of, "They (psychic surgeons) owe us Peter Sellers back." Gave me a lump in my throat - I was a huge Peter Sellers fan. That has often been my response to the "What harm does it do?" question.

[kosai]

I'm not really one to distort text but I agree some other graphic element to represent "harm" would be nice, just not sure what that would be. I'll work on it a bit more, if anyone has any ideas please speak up. Here's the way I'd change the page if it were mine...

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9341/wth2qm4.jpg
By travisjd (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/travisjd) at 2008-01-09

[ThatSoundAgain]

More neutral term for woo: Superstition, quackery maybe? Superstition would definitely be understood by everyone, but might not be accurate for all categories.

On the design, you could either go for a full-blown portal style (think Yahoo category view), or for a simpler, searchable site with the looks of a blog or small newspaper. Photo reports, cover stories, anyone? We definitely need to consider chipping in for a domain name.

kosai, your header looks good. Have you tried it with the question mark aligned vertically with the headline (along with the bubble), and offset a bit to the left? Oh, and I agree it'd be best to either lose the granite, or make it look better - individual, more physical slabs that are less busy behind the text.

A sober, centered design would look good, I think. Something like this (http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=194/194.css), this (http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=158/158.css), this (http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=149/149.css) or this (http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=174/174.css).

Great initiative!

[monkeypox]

A stylized skull in the hollow part of the lower case "a" in harm, perhaps simple like the Punisher comic book logo.
The "m" at the end of harm looks like two generic tombstones, perhaps incorporate that somehow.
The typical (but imho tacky) dripping blood red lettering for harm.
Cartoonish ideas, but might fit in with the clean & bold look of the title graphic.
There are many "fractured & ruptured" fonts to be found for "harm" if that is what you are looking for.

[RSLancastr]

I'm not really one to distort text

Not distort so much as "break." As in, make it look as though it had been sliced diagonally in two, and the two pieces had slid slightly askew from each other, sort of like an eartqhuake faultline. Just a thought.

but I agree some other graphic element to represent "harm" would be nice, just not sure what that would be. I'll work on it a bit more, if anyone has any ideas please speak up.Perhaps an answering "word balloon" on the right side, with some icon of danger inside? A skull? And that image could "float" to the right, much like the word "forum" floats to the right of the banner at the top of the JREF forum when you resize the page.

Or, to put it all into one logo image, erhaps somehow merge the question mark with a skull? Or perhaps the yellow triangle warning sign with a question mark in it? Or perhaps I'm just traffic sign oriented... :D

[kosai]

Robert thanks for the ideas... I must say you have my favorite traffic sign inspired logo on the web. For my idea, I was trying to come up with some things that we skeptics might generally not consider "harm" but as I (hope and) think this page is going to be sold to a more general audience, what if we were to use the "devil horns," it fits nicely into the existing logo and does bring a sense that I think is the point we are trying to get across that the REAL evil in this world is caused by the acts featured below.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4636/wth3go9.jpg
By travisjd (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/travisjd) at 2008-01-09

I guess I feel a little bad about incorporating a "woo" belief into the logo itself but I'll wait for feedback.

[CFLarsen]

I don't think it's a good idea to keep it gruesome.

It should be factual, first and foremost. It should bury(!) the reader with evidence, not emotions. It should be a testament to the fact that people get hurt from woo beliefs - but it shouldn't be "emotional porn" (Danish term - you get the picture).

Do what the site does already: List(!) the facts, and let people decide. Strike a note of somberness, but don't piss on the people we are supposed to fight for. The last thing anyone wants is a site that is seen as exploitational.

Nocturne. Not Dies Irae.

Just my two ears.

http://www.skepticreport.com/images/jref/h-0001.jpg

http://www.skepticreport.com/images/jref/h-0002.jpg

Forget the inconsistencies - this is merely a mockup, to get a general idea of how it could look.

And yes, I make these for breakfast.

[kosai]

With the new logo...

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6928/wth4nw8.jpg
By travisjd (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/travisjd) at 2008-01-09

[Miss Whiplash]

Great idea! Add magician Doug Henning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Henning) to the wall. He blew his entire magic act and fortune to follow TM.

[tkingdoll]

I like where CFL has taken that, with the profiles. Much more visual and easy to scan.

[krelnik]

Wow, everyone! Thanks for all the design ideas and pitching in. (And several of you sent me name additions for the database in PMs, thanks to you too if I didn't already thank you individually).

I have to agree with Claus and Teek on the "keep it neutral" idea. If we're gonna try to catch some believers with this, things like devil horns and skulls are an immediate turn-off. (I admit I hadn't originally thought about believers reading this site, but the more I think about it the more it appeals to me).

I do like kosai's logo, and also much of the layout and design stuff that Claus has done. (I particularly like repeating the overall totals in the top of each page, and having some navigation on the left).

I'm busy with work stuff for the next couple of days, so I can't integrate this stuff right away, but I'll start thinking about what its going to take to make it happen.

Thanks for all the ideas, folks. Keep them coming!

--Tim Farley

[Tressa]

Great idea! Very impressive.

[rjh01]

How about a comments page?

Replace woo with believers like you did in your last post.

[krelnik]

I have three entries in the database right now that are actually cities or states. They are as follows:

La Grulla, Texas (under Psychics)
Dover, Pennsylvania (under Creationism)
California (under Satanic abuse hysteria)

In each case, the town/city/state suffered an economic loss because of woo. Now, each entry in the database also has two "person" counts, one for dead and one for injured. That way I can cover things like medical studies or mass suicides in one entry.

Here's the question: should I list the entire population of these towns under the "injured" field?

On one hand, I don't want to be accused of padding the numbers.

Also, one could argue that not ALL of the residents of that town were necessarily harmed. (For instance, a retired resident of Dover who doesn't use the schools?)

On the other hand, it looks goofy to have these items listed as "1 person". (For example, see the Creationism page which only has 2 entries now, and look at the total at the top).

Thoughts?

[ThatSoundAgain]

While the numbers look impressive, they could maybe be left out so the discussion of this point wouldn't drown out the criticism. Alternatively, you could have an entirely different field for "suffered economic loss", have the option of N/A or have a special field in your database for arbitrary text ("school children in Kansas").

Actually, maybe you should have a few different categories and only show those that are relevant. Economic losses could be specified in dollars or in number of persons scammed (or whatever). But only for those entries where it's relevant.

[rjh01]

I have three entries in the database right now that are actually cities or states. They are as follows:

La Grulla, Texas (under Psychics)
Dover, Pennsylvania (under Creationism)
California (under Satanic abuse hysteria)

In each case, the town/city/state suffered an economic loss because of woo. Now, each entry in the database also has two "person" counts, one for dead and one for injured. That way I can cover things like medical studies or mass suicides in one entry.

Here's the question: should I list the entire population of these towns under the "injured" field?
<snip>


You could have another category that counts governments harmed by woo. Then another one for other organisations harmed by woo.

[krelnik]

Yes, I already have a dollar figure in another field. I'm just wondering if it should also be reflected in the people count to indicate how many persons were harmed by that loss of money.

[Aepervius]

I like the version of CFlarsen (the one at the bottom), visual picture of the victim help make impact. The problem is, do you need the authorization of the victim family ?

[Halcyon Dayz]

Lysenkoism alone got tens of millions of people killed.

You are going to need the Great Wall of China to write all the names down.

ETA: Dutch actress Sylvia Millecam.

[kosai]

I like the version of CFlarsen (the one at the bottom), visual picture of the victim help make impact. The problem is, do you need the authorization of the victim family ?

You would need authorization from the photographer actually. While it would be nice, you would most likely need a budget in order to gain usage rights for those photos.

[krelnik]

Lysenkoism alone got tens of millions of people killed.

I think that falls out of my "last 50 years" mandate from the OP, but correct me if I'm wrong.

ETA: Dutch actress Sylvia Millecam.

She's been in there since before the original post. (There's a page that has all my cases on it, look on the lower right of the main page. With that loaded up you can easily search to see if I already have a given case using your browser).

Keep the suggestions coming, though, they are appreciated!

--Tim Farley

[Halcyon Dayz]

Lysenkoism alone got tens of millions of people killed.
I think that falls out of my "last 50 years" mandate from the OP, but correct me if I'm wrong.
China's Great Leap Forward (1958-60) got at least 14 million people killed, and was, at least in part, based in Lysenkoism.


Dutch actress Sylvia Millecam.She's been in there since before the original post. (There's a page that has all my cases on it, look on the lower right of the main page. With that loaded up you can easily search to see if I already have a given case using your browser).
:o

Keep the suggestions coming, though, they are appreciated!
:)

[sopsyched]

Here's the question: should I list the entire population of these towns under the "injured" field?


One option is to put the entire population number, but put it in the database as a negative value. The negative would be a special designation for "up to", "perhaps", "approximately", "population of", etc. In other words, the database number would be -10000 and the script to create the page would test if the number is negative, and if so, attach the prefix and print the absolute value. This makes it easy to differentiate the number from the exact ones (and exclude it from any calculations) so you can't be accused of padding, but also to show it without needing extra fields.

Another option, instead of or in addition to the above, would be to use a special number that wouldn't otherwise occur in that field (i.e., "-1") and replace it with "Unknown" "Uncountable" "Varies" "Unknowable" "Multiple" "Many" "Too many to count" "Entire Community" "Entire Population", etc, when the page is generated.

[brettDbass]

I'd like to nominate the case of Gina Stevenson, jailed in my home town a while ago...

http://www.theskepticexpress.com/In_search_of_Fame_and_Fortune.php

[dogjones]

From Bermuda. Dentist (why is it always dentists??) Dr. Amenemhat Waset Amen-Re Tamerry - formerly known as Clark Godwin - and his wife Maatkai Hatsheput Tamerry killed their 10 month old daughter A'maya with extreme vegetarianism. They were convicted of manslaughter in 2004 and recently the conviction was quashed on appeal. But the baby's still dead.

http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Search/results.jsp

http://bermudasun.bm/Main.asp?SectionID=24&ArticleID=33062

snip
The trial in 2004 had heard that, instead of providing the baby girl with balanced nutrition and proper medical care, the couple relied on Irish Sea Moss in conformity to their vegetarian lifestyle.

She lost weight dramatically over the last months of her life and died suffering from major organic deterioration.

[krelnik]

Great cases, brett and dog, thanks!

I have one or two others where people tried to feed newborns a vegetarian/vegan diet with catastrophic effects, I may have to add a category for that one.

[NobbyNobbs]

I tried to post this idea before, but I must have missed the submit button.


How about a "Close Calls" page? Stories like:

Jane Doe's psychic friend told her that the chest pains she was experiencing were do to an imbalance in her chi. If she'd meditate and experience acupuncture, it would go away. After three weeks of this therapy, Jane's condition got worse. She decided to go to a board-certified doctor. After doing some scans, it was discovered that she had an arrythmia. The surgery was successful and is credited with saving her life.

[NobbyNobbs]

double post

[kosai]

I tried to post this idea before, but I must have missed the submit button.


How about a "Close Calls" page? Stories like:

Jane Doe's psychic friend told her that the chest pains she was experiencing were do to an imbalance in her chi. If she'd meditate and experience acupuncture, it would go away. After three weeks of this therapy, Jane's condition got worse. She decided to go to a board-certified doctor. After doing some scans, it was discovered that she had an arrythmia. The surgery was successful and is credited with saving her life.


If skeptics made Chick Tracts this would be the plot of like 90 of them.

[AK-Dave]

Death of nurse by ear candle:
http://www.akjusticecommission.com/uploaded_documents/Tundra_Drums_02-03-05.pdf

Story starts on front page and continues on page 18. Could not find the Anchorage Daily News article on it. When this happened, the newspaper had a quote from someone at the state fire marshalls office supporting ear candling. I called the office (a former cow-orker worked there) and complained about state officials supporting the use of illegal medical devices.

-David

[krelnik]

How about a "Close Calls" page? Stories like:


I agree, in fact there are already some stories like that in there. In general I used the term "delayed treatment", which is definitely a harm. Look on the scientific studies page, there are several on this very topic, since some illnesses are only curable if caught early.

Death of nurse by ear candle

That is a good one, I never would have found that one via Google. Thanks!

--Tim Farley

[AK-Dave]

That is a good one, I never would have found that one via Google. Thanks!

--Tim Farley


I could not find the other articles on the web sites of the news agencies that originated them, but I did quote the text of a KTUU.com article in an email I sent at the time. I know posting large portions of an article is usually a no-no, but there does not seem to be an option with this one. It does not appear to be on the 'net any more and it's so full of win that I really can't chop it up much:

(bolding, other than the title, is mine)
(originaly located at
http://www.ktuu.com/CMS/templates/master.asp?articleid=11389&zoneid=4)

Ear candle may have sparked fatal fire in Bethel
Wednesday, February 2, 2005 - by Sean Doogan

Anchorage, Alaska
- An ear candle could have been the cause of last Thursday's fatal apartment fire in Bethel. The Jan. 27 blaze injured four and killed Bethel nurse Ardean Selby.

The cause has not yet officially been determined, but fire officials say 60-year-old Selby could have been using an ear candle when the fire started. But what is an ear candle?

Editing for breach of copyright

[krelnik]

I know posting large portions of an article is usually a no-no, but there does not seem to be an option with this one. It does not appear to be on the 'net any more and it's so full of win...

Yes, the quick expiration of articles on news websites is a problem I've already noticed, and I've only been working on this for a couple months. It underscores the value of this database in capturing these cases before they are lost down the "memory hole". I use the Internet Wayback Machine for some links, but they don't cover the whole web.

I think I'm gonna have to start archiving articles for the site just in case. It seems like a common practice on the web, if you go to Rick Ross's cult site or any of the Scientology sites, they often post the entire text of long-expired news stories. Yes, I know technically this is a violation of copyright, but what I'm saying is the news services don't seem to be too strident about policing this. Anyone have any experience otherwise?

From Bermuda...
http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Search/results.jsp (http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Search/results.jsp)


Case in point. Dog, do you have a copy of this story? It says the story is archived when I go here.

Thanks again, everyone, and keep sending stuff in.

[krelnik]

I've updated the site with almost all of the cases you guys submitted, plus a few more I stumbled across. Thanks, everyone, and keep it up. We're now up to 2,405 people killed, 17,641 injured and over $52,586,248 in economic damages.

Every link now has a title, so you can hover over the outbound links to see what the source is. Please report any broken links or if you can find one that is better than one I have for a given case.

I've added a couple of categories to cover recently added cases.

Please keep looking for cases you know about that I may have missed, and especially cases that reflect forms of woo that are currently unrepresented.

As I said I'm very busy with work this week, so I won't get a chance to incorporate the many great design ideas until sometime next week. (I probably spent too much time on this just today alone).

My current hope is to get it cleaned up, add a FAQ and some more neutral explanatory text, and move it to its own domain before TAM 5.5. That way we can all talk about it at the conference and think about what we want to do with it moving forward.

--Tim Farley

[ThatSoundAgain]

Another thing to consider is having a paper archive. Maybe not physically, but scanned and OCR'ed from local or national papers along with the web snapshots. You don't even have to make them public, short excerpts and attributions are fine for that kind of cites, and completely legal, IIRC.

This is a lot of work, though, and you'd need a network of people willing to send the local stuff in.

ETA: The point is to have the full documentation handy if anyone asks. Oh, and aren't court papers copyright-free?

[RSLancastr]

Great work, Krelnik!

I don't know the man's name, but I've heard of a case where, as a result of belief in witchcraft, a man got turned into a newt.

He got better though, so I do not know if it would be a good candidate for the Wall...

[dogjones]

Case in point. Dog, do you have a copy of this story? It says the story is archived when I go here.



Ah, I had sent you a search string which doesn't seem to be picked up on the link. The thing is there isn't really one comprehensive story; the coverage was more along the lines of various updates (it was quite big news over here). In any case, try:

http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Article/article.jsp?sectionId=60&articleId=7d2830e30030033

http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Article/article.jsp?sectionId=60&articleId=7d46c8e30030009

http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Article/article.jsp?sectionId=60&articleId=7d4648e30030011

http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Article/article.jsp?sectionId=60&articleId=7d7373330030000

These seem to have the most info on what happened. If you want to have a look at the other stories, press the "search articles" button (top left of any story) and type "Tamerry" - this brings up all the articles.

[The Bad Astronomer]

krelnik, this is fantastic! I'd like to link to it from my blog, but I figured I'd better warn you first. I have a decent sized audience -- not enough to slam your server -- but if it gets picked up by reddit, Digg, or slashdot, you could get hit pretty hard. Does Mindspring cap your bandwidth?

[The Bad Astronomer]

Oh-- I saw the entry you have on Sibrel. As far as followup links go, may I humbly (ha!) suggest http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/sibrel.html, or more generally http://www.google.com/search?q=sibrel&sitesearch=www.badastronomy.com

[krelnik]

krelnik, this is fantastic! I'd like to link to it from my blog, but I figured I'd better warn you first.

Can you hold off on that for a week or two? I'm gonna move it to a proper domain and make it look prettier, at that point I'll want everyone to link to it.

Thanks!

ETA:
I added that link into the db, its not up on the site yet though.

[Leicontis]

What about the elderly New Hampshire couple who refused to pay their taxes, and ended up in a months-long standoff with government agents? It turned out that they'd set up lethal booby-traps around their property, and had prepared to resist violently when arrested. Luckily, U.S. marshals managed to surprise them and make the arrest without incident, and both are now serving sentences for tax evasion, with other charges pending.

I cannot for the life of me remember their names, however, which makes finding references somewhat problematic...

Another suggestion - for each category, have multiple reference links to descriptions of the practice, including Wikipedia. Since Wikipedia tries to maintain neutrality in their articles, it should be less offputting to believers than openly skeptical sites. If it can be done without causing clutter, perhaps putting the damage totals for each category next to the category link, along with a link to a descriptive site (new window/tab) - might make it more eye-catching.

[Spektator]

What about the elderly New Hampshire couple who refused to pay their taxes, and ended up in a months-long standoff with government agents? It turned out that they'd set up lethal booby-traps around their property, and had prepared to resist violently when arrested. Luckily, U.S. marshals managed to surprise them and make the arrest without incident, and both are now serving sentences for tax evasion, with other charges pending.

I cannot for the life of me remember their names, however, which makes finding references somewhat problematic...

(snip).

Edward and Elaine Brown of Plainfiled, N.H., taken into custody on October 4, 2007.

[RichardR]

Read this Larry King transcript (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/11/acd.01.html) of an interview two former long-term Scientologists, Michael Pattinson and Tory Christman:

CHRISTMAN: In Scientology, you have to pay for just about everything. They have a few free things to try to rope people in, but basically you pay for everything. It starts very inexpensive and builds rapidly into thousands, hundreds-of-thousands of dollars.

COOPER: Michael, you say you've spent, what? How much money?

PATTINSON: Approximately half-a-million dollars.

CHRISTMAN: Well, I know -- Yes, I would say $200,000, at least, was our inheritance we spent and more.

[RSLancastr]

I have a decent sized audience -- not enough to slam your server -- but if it gets picked up by reddit, Digg, or slashdot, you could get hit pretty hard.BA, not sure if I've ever mentioned it, but I have gotten more external page requests originating from your site (1,311,307) than from any other.

If I haven't said it before - thanks!

[OldTigerCub]

There is a thread that I started in the CT forum (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=103423) (actually njslim and I started threads on the same subject at the same time that were merged) that relates to an article about a book written by Damian Thompson entitled "Counterknowledge" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=FF1QJFQXP1Q55QFIQMFCFFOAVCBQ YIV0?xml=/news/2008/01/12/nrfact112.xml&page=1) that points out the tactics used by CTers and the damage that can result from the acceptance of lies as fact, not just individually, but on entire cultures and populations.
I found it interesting because it takes aim at the Loose Change bunch, but it also cites examples of CTs in the medical and health fields that have caused harm or prevented help to entire populations:

The fingerprints of the alternative medicine lobby are all over the worst British health scare of recent years, in which thousands of parents denied their children the MMR triple vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella following the dissemination of flawed data linking it to autism. In that case, distrust of orthodox medicine increased the danger of a measles epidemic.

But that is nothing compared to the impact of medical counterknowledge in underdeveloped countries. In northern Nigeria, Islamic leaders have issued a fatwa declaring the polio vaccine to be a US conspiracy to sterilise Muslims: polio has returned to the area, and pilgrims have carried it to Mecca and Yemen. In January 2007, the parents of 24,000 children in Pakistan refused to let health workers vaccinate their children because radical mullahs had told them the same idiotic story.

These incidents cannot be dismissed as examples of medieval superstition: these people are not rejecting life-saving vaccines because they reject modern medicine, but because their leaders are spouting Islamic takes on Western conspiracy theories. Counterknowledge, with its ingrained hostility towards a political, intellectual and scientific elite, appeals to anti-American, anti-Western sentiment in the developing world.

This might be a good book to cite in any references and examples of publications you might list.

Edit: Here is a link to the book on Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/Counterknowledge-Damian-Thompson/dp/1843546752/

[RichardR]

Anti vaccination lunacy (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/01/the_real_evidence_of_harm.php).

[krelnik]

Thanks, folks, for all the tips. Keep them coming. I think I captured all of them, but I do still have a small backlog of URLs from other sources that I need to read & get into the db.

Just as an update, I'm super busy at work this week, but I'm gonna get a domain registered for this and launch it just before TAM 5.5. I'll post the URL when it is live.

A question on that: the pages all say "What's the harm", which seems like the skeptical "meme" for this sort of thing, and therefore good Google bait.

Should I just call the site "What's The Harm?" and forget the "wall" stuff?

My thought is that "wall of harm", while perhaps useful as imagery for skeptics, is not that helpful when trying to attract believers.

[krelnik]

As we move toward launch, I'm also trying to clean up some of the verbiage to make sure it is very neutral. It occurs to me that a few of my topic names don't seem very neutral:

Metal toxicity hysteria
Satanic ritual abuse hysteria
Apocalypse hysteria
Y2K hysteria

(Yes, I realize I should probably combine those last two).

It occurs to me that a believer, seeing the word "hysteria" in those, might be put off.

Can anyone think of a better way to word this? These are categories so they have to be relatively short to fit in page titles and URLs.

[CFLarsen]

Should I just call the site "What's The Harm?" and forget the "wall" stuff?

My thought is that "wall of harm", while perhaps useful as imagery for skeptics, is not that helpful when trying to attract believers.

Yeah. Keep it neutral - and then pelt'em with damning facts.

As we move toward launch, I'm also trying to clean up some of the verbiage to make sure it is very neutral. It occurs to me that a few of my topic names don't seem very neutral:

Metal toxicity hysteria
Satanic ritual abuse hysteria
Apocalypse hysteria
Y2K hysteria

(Yes, I realize I should probably combine those last two).

It occurs to me that a believer, seeing the word "hysteria" in those, might be put off.

Can anyone think of a better way to word this? These are categories so they have to be relatively short to fit in page titles and URLs.

"Scares". People don't mind being called scared, but they don't like to be called hysterics.

And yes, Y2K should be under Apocalypse. ;)

[ExMinister]

I think this is a very cool idea and you've done a great job setting it up. I think this site has the potential to do a lot of good. May I repeat the suggestion, made earlier, that the word "woo" on the main page is replaced with "believer" or some other, woo-friendlier term? This site could appeal strongly to "woo" types, too, most of who will not have heard of the term "woo," - many do try to think critically but are unaware that so much negative, objective (even if anecdotal) evidence is available. Great to have it gathered in one place like this!

[TheDoLittle]

As an avid gamer, would the hysteria surrounding roleplaying games, specifically Dungeons and Dragons, be considered?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_controversies

[krelnik]

...would the hysteria surrounding roleplaying games, specifically Dungeons and Dragons, be considered?


That's good outside-the-box thinking. I really do like including categories that are not among the traditional skeptical topics. For instance I have one for "internet misinformation". This helps drive home the point of how generically useful critical thinking is.

I read that whole Wikipedia article, though, and it seemed like all the cases where people actually got harmed (suicides and the like) were, on reflection, caused by other underlying caused and only superficially blamed on D&D. Who in there would you call a victim?

[ThatSoundAgain]

A question on that: the pages all say "What's the harm", which seems like the skeptical "meme" for this sort of thing, and therefore good Google bait.

Should I just call the site "What's The Harm?" and forget the "wall" stuff?

My thought is that "wall of harm", while perhaps useful as imagery for skeptics, is not that helpful when trying to attract believers.

As a European, I would not immediately get the wall reference. If properly presented, I could probably get the concept anyway, but I think "What's the harm" is better. Just my two (euro)cents.

Oh, and a great thing about Snopes is the thorough research and the "state lights" - true, false, undetermined. If you had the manpower to do something similar, ranging from a rating of the documentation to full articles, that would be great. That's probably wishful thinking, though.

[TheDoLittle]

That's good outside-the-box thinking. I really do like including categories that are not among the traditional skeptical topics. For instance I have one for "internet misinformation". This helps drive home the point of how generically useful critical thinking is.

I read that whole Wikipedia article, though, and it seemed like all the cases where people actually got harmed (suicides and the like) were, on reflection, caused by other underlying caused and only superficially blamed on D&D. Who in there would you call a victim?


Which is my main question. That I'm aware of there have been no deaths directly attributed to a roleplaying game and the hobby, but there have been some overblown media surrounding it.

Since you are going to TAM 5.5, you might want to talk with Stackpole. Being the media muckity-muck at GAMA, he might some better insight to some documented stories. I know for a fact he authored a paper on the Pulling story.

[Leicontis]

It suddenly occurs to me to wonder whether the Christian Scientist section is appropriate. Unlike the other medicine-compromising woo, Christian Scientists don't (AFAIK) claim that their doing nothing is more effective than doing something - they know the risks, and choose to refrain from using medicine for religious reasons. The same would apply to Jehova's Witnesses, and other religions that simply prohibit one or more forms of treatment. Generally, these people are aware of the risk, but choose to continue with their practices for spiritual reasons. I don't think that telling them something they already know is going to convince them to change/abandon their religion, and it risks alienating them before they can read about other, more insidious woo.

Pretty much every religion is, directly or indirectly, responsible for numerous deaths. Scientology is a good target, because they actually claim to have a superior treatment. They specifically oppose scientifically proven treatments in favor of their woo, to the detriment of their believers. The cultlike controlling aspects of Jehova's Witnesses are certainly fair game, but I don't see any point to harping on people making poor medical decisions for spiritual reasons. If you're going to do that, you might as well start looking into complications from circumcision, which would risk alienating much larger religious segments.

Overall, I'd go after cultlike practices and practices and beliefs that can be scientifically demonstrated to be woo - since spiritual side-effects cannot be scientifically investigated, practices that are considered a physical sacrifice for spiritual gain can't really be proven as woo.

What do other posters think about this?

[arthwollipot]

As an avid gamer, would the hysteria surrounding roleplaying games, specifically Dungeons and Dragons, be considered?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_controversiesI wouln't - there are already websites that are collating this information - specifically the CAR-PGa (http://www.car-pga.org/) and The Escapist (http://www.theescapist.com/). You'd only be duplicating their efforts.

[krelnik]

It suddenly occurs to me to wonder whether the Christian Scientist section is appropriate. Unlike the other medicine-compromising woo, Christian Scientists don't (AFAIK) claim that their doing nothing is more effective than doing something - they know the risks, and choose to refrain from using medicine for religious reasons. The same would apply to Jehova's Witnesses....

Overall, I'd go after cultlike practices and practices and beliefs that can be scientifically demonstrated to be woo - since spiritual side-effects cannot be scientifically investigated, practices that are considered a physical sacrifice for spiritual gain can't really be proven as woo.


That is an interesting point that I had not thought about.

I am very aware of the possibility of alienating religious people. While I am an agnostic/atheist myself, I feel that trying to convince people to abandon religion is (in many cases) an insurmountable problem. As a skeptic my personal choice is to avoid that battle and concentrate on more immediately winnable ones. (That's just my personal choice, and I'm not saying anyone is wrong to choose otherwise).

To play Devil's Advocate for a bit, there was a study in Pediatrics (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/101/4/625) that showed that 80% of child deaths in Christian Scientist (and similar) households are from medical conditions that are 90% curable. It seems like even a religious person might be swayed by that.

On the Jehovah's front, the thing that always stands out to me is the fact that the church formerly prohibited organ transplants, and then reversed themselves (http://www.wfial.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=artJws.article_2) in a later ruling. (Of course, what use is allowing transplants if you don't allow transfusions? Is it even possible to transplant anything other than maybe a cornea without a transfusion?) They've also reversed themselves on vaccinations. If I were a JW, I'd be wondering: when is the reversal on transfusions coming, and is it going to be soon enough to save my kid?

[Peter S.]

I found a small typo on the Quackery page in the Liam Williams-Holloway story.

Also, on this sort of web site I prefer the links to open in separate windows so I can click on them, but keep reading the page I'm on, but that may be just me.

[hmmm...]

Possibly of use...



http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=130711

Quake predictions rattle nerves in Gisborne

16/01/2008 10:24:02

A rumour of more earthquakes to come in Gisborne is sending shock waves through the community, and causing headaches for officials.

An American woman claims to have foreseen the region's 6.8 magnitude quake in December, and believes another is on its way. The psychic predicted a magnitude 8 earthquake for last Wednesday.

Gisborne District Council civil defence officer Richard Steele says when it did not happen, the dates and times started changing. He says a few people have fled in fear and the emergency phone systems have been flooded with calls.

[athon]

Krelnik,

Excellent idea. I must have missed this sticky up until now. It looks like you're doing a smashing job! If there's anything I can do at any point I'd only be too happy to assist. I'll definitely keep it in mind if I remember anything, though.

Athon

[RSLancastr]

On the Jehovah's front, the thing that always stands out to me is the fact that the church formerly prohibited organ transplants, and then reversed themselves (http://www.wfial.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=artJws.article_2) in a later ruling. (Of course, what use is allowing transplants if you don't allow transfusions?I may be wrong in this, but don't they allow transfusions of your own blood? So a person can have blood taken in the weeks leading up to the operation, which will then be used as the transfusion blood during the operation?

[Leicontis]

A couple of ideas that occurred to me today:

1) For each entry, have a set of links at the bottom to the categories that include that entry. This would more clearly show what woo is involved in each case.

2) Maybe put together graphs that show a breakdown of deaths, injuries, and money lost by category. This would admittedly be a bit difficult due to overlap, but if you could find some way to deal with that, it would be interesting to see. The biggest problem I could see with it would be that it would give the (probably mistaken) impression that the graphs were representative of damage caused by woo in general, rather than just that which you've been able to find documentation of.

3) If you do include Wikipedia links (as suggested in a previous post), perhaps they should be given a different icon, or always placed at the beginning/end of the set of information links. Given that most of your info links are from various scattered sources, it would look good to have a consistently-referenced source, even if it's as unofficial as Wikipedia. Just make sure you don't link any Wikipedia pages you've edited (at least not without warning that you've edited the page), as that would give the mistaken impression of potential dishonesty.

[Madalch]

I'd go with "What's the Harm?" When I glance at "Wall of Harm", I usually parse it as "Wall of Ham", and it makes me hungry.

[krelnik]

I may be wrong in this, but don't they allow transfusions of your own blood? So a person can have blood taken in the weeks leading up to the operation, which will then be used as the transfusion blood during the operation?

Krelnik slaps his forehead and says, "Doh!"

You're right as usual, Robert!

[krelnik]

1) For each entry, have a set of links at the bottom to the categories that include that entry. This would more clearly show what woo is involved in each case.

Yes, I definitely want to do that. It may or may not be there at "launch" but I'll get it in there soon.

The other ideas are interesting too. On the graphs, I think I'll wait until the database is quite alot bigger before going that route. Right now I know there's alot of stuff missing in there, so I'm not sure deep data analysis would reveal too much.

Not sure about highlighting the wikipedia links. There's only 29 of them (out of 414 total links -- having this in a database is handy), so I don't think its worth the extra effort.

I do have a few links that are to nominally "woo" sites, I would like to de-emphasise those at some point, or at least mark them as NOFOLLOW once I have a decent search engine presence myself.

--Tim Farley

[rats]

Brilliant, Krelnik!

Let me know if there's a bit of random research I can help you with. Although I don't have much time at the moment, being UK based and a French speaker I may come in useful.

Despite your source of inspiration, I'm glad you changed the name as the first image that popped in to my head was the Berlin wall, which probably wasn't too appropriate!

[krelnik]

As promised, I have moved the site to a more permanent and easier-to-remember URL. Please take another look here:

http://whatstheharm.net (http://whatstheharm.net)

Please give it a look and let me know if I broke anything in the move.

Thank you to kosai for the banner and new icons.

I've also rewritten the explanatory text to make it more appealing to non-skeptics. Gone are words like "woo", "skeptic" and "bogus". Now the text focuses on bad information and the power of critical thinking. Please let me know if you see anything I missed.

I changed the "critics" page to a FAQ and added a resources page to link to good material on critical thinking.

Still more changes to come, so if you made a suggestion that I haven't acted on yet, be patient.

[RSLancastr]

Thank you to kosai for the banner and new icons.

Ummmm.... I am seeing no banner. On any page.

[rats]

Hmm, I see the banner + side menu + stats summary on all the pages I clicked on.

I'm using IE7, if that's any help.

[krelnik]

Ummmm.... I am seeing no banner. On any page.

Wow, that's odd. I'm not doing anything fancy, just:


<img src="graphics/banner.jpg" width="773" height="151" alt="what's the harm?" border="0">


By any chance are you running an ad-blocker? I'm wondering if the filename "banner.jpg" is triggering it?

[RSLancastr]

Hmm, I see the banner + side menu + stats summary on all the pages I clicked on.

I'm using IE7, if that's any help.I have tried it with IE7 v7.0.5730.11 and with Firefox 2.0.0.11, and neither shows a banner. I see the menu on the left-hand side, I see the "2,427 people killed, 17,708 injured and over $89,328,989 in economic damages" accross the top, but no banner.

I am using Windows XP Home Edition, version 2002 SP2.

Here is what I see on the opening page:

[RSLancastr]

Interesting! I just disabled Norton Personal Firewall, and the banner appears.

ETA: Now I've reenabled NPF, and the banner still appears.

[krelnik]

I just changed the filename, I think that must have been it.

ETA: Yes, Google seems to indicate that Norton Personal Firewall has an ad-blocking feature, that must have been it.

[RSLancastr]

Ah. Good! Curious: what was the file name before?

By the way, note my new sig line.

And add one to yours!

Congrats on your grand opening!

[rats]

Glad that's all sorted :)

So, can we start linking to the web site now, or will you make a general announcement?

And should we bring virtual champagne to smash against the question mark icon?!

[RSLancastr]

On List of Topics page:

Typo: Superstitous ritual s/b Superstitious ritual.

Suggestion: when a topic name wraps to more than one line, indent the lines after the first.

Using Yellow text on a white background (for highlighting when moused-over) may not be so great an idea.

[Leicontis]

The new site looks great!

A thought I just had, though - it may or may not be a good idea - there are, for many topics, links to skepticism sites as the only general description of the category. While the information on such sites is probably of very high quality (a good skeptic checks their facts carefully), it could be seen as unbalanced. Adding links to websites that promote the woo in question would show the other side of the coin, and give more complete information on the topic, but risks generating new believers from credulous readers.

I notice that, in a number of cases, you have links to the same Wikipedia article next to each of several victims of the same woo. In general, unless the Wikipedia article is about the specific case, I'd personally lean towards putting the link to the article about the woo up at the top, as it would give a neutral and informative description of the woo in question. Of course, linking to points within the article for individual cases does work if that's the only source you can find (though one would expect that the Wikipedia article should have sources of its own, which might provide more information than the individual blurbs in the article).

You might want to try and come up with a different name for the "Religion" category - it gives the impression that you're attacking mainstream religion, which will alienate many readers. Perhaps "Religious Fundamentalism", "Religious Extremism", or similar. Most of the cases seem to be from fringe groups, with the balance coming primarily from fundamentalist sects. I'm also not sure whether some of the stories even belong under "Religion", since some are from the "Cults" section, it seems kinda redundant to put them under "Religion" as well.

One case, Kyle Lake, seems to have been killed by a stupid mistake (electricity + water). While he was performing a religious ceremony at the time, this was not an intended part of it, and as such is no more the fault of the religion than being killed by tripping and hitting your head on a pew. Rather than being a warning against uncritical thinking, I'd call it a warning against lack of care with electrical equipment.

Please don't take my comments the wrong way. I think that the site is wonderful, and it has the potential to help a lot of people. It's just still young, and inevitably people will disagree on exactly how stuff should be arranged, as everything gets gradually sorted out and polished up.

And please, let us know when to start promoting the site. One thing that might help would be to include a bank of common search strings related to the site's purpose (especially the topics - if someone's not sure about homeopathy, for example, and googles it, you want them to see your site), though I'd hold off on that until you're ready to start promoting the site.

ETA: I thought I should clarify that when I talk about the "Religion" section above, I mean the subcategory that's linked to, not the overall heading that contains the links for cults, Scientology, etc.

[krelnik]

So, can we start linking to the web site now, or will you make a general announcement?


Sure thing, link away! I'll sit here and cross my fingers that I bought an appropriate bandwidth package.


And should we bring virtual champagne to smash against the question mark icon?!

I plan to celebrate the launch at the TAM 5.5 Forum Party this coming Saturday.

--Tim Farley

[UnrepentantSinner]

Subbing.

[rjh01]

One idea is to go to all the woo and neutral forums and put it there and see how you go. No doubt you will be banned from some of them quickly, but at least you will have exposed a few woo people to it.

It is no good just showing us it or leaving it for woos to find. They will not look at it without it being put in their face.

[CFLarsen]

Overall: Very nice. Very nice because it's very simple.

A few points, though:

You must - must, must, must - underscore all links in the text. I am thinking specifically of the "List of Topics". You underscore links in the FAQ and Resources pages. The double-line spacing in the Resources page is how "List of Topics" should look like.

Be consistent - the hardest part of designing! ;)

The left side menu should also have double-line spacing.

You should consider using indents instead of lines in the left side menu, to more clearly indicate sub items.

When you link to outside sources, you should clearly indicate when the user leaves the site. It is clear when people click the "?" icon, but in other places, use a small icon or indicate by text. Users hate to lose track of where they are - it's the number one gripe.

When you click on the top logo, it doesn't lead to the top page. This has become the de-facto standard.

When you list the "?" icons for each case, you could consider inserting a <br> just before, so that they line up to the left always. That way, the user doesn't have to scan the line to find it.

You have to warn people in advance before they click on the "Everyone" link. Right now, it's shy of 2,500, which is bad enough, but what's going to happen when you hit the 10,000 mark (which, given the widespread wooisms out there, you will real soon!)?

If you are going to have that much info on one page, why not make it available for people as a Zip file?

Likewise, it would be a very good idea on the "List of topics" page to indicate how many cases people can expect. E.g. "Acupuncture (18,324)"

Again: Very nice.

[DeVega]

Hi Krelnik

Just wanted you to know FYI - I am on a Mac, using 'Safari' as my browser and I can see everything perfectly! (Sometimes things do display slightly differently on Safari - but your page is perfect!)

From a creative standpoint I DO very much like it when the entries have pictures - it breaks up the text and makes the point very eloquently that this is REAL people being discussed. Do you have to get permissions to use the pictures, or can you simply use them if they have been in greneral editorial use?

All best
DeVega

[krelnik]

Thanks for all the tips! With TAM 5.5 coming up and work being very busy this week, I don't have time to address them all right away, but they are all noted.

DeVega, I'm basically cheating on the photos, on the assumption that they are only thumbnails. In almost all cases, I link to the site where the original is found. (Yes, I am aware that even mighty Google has gotten their hand slapped in court over thumbnails). I'll add a feedback link soon, and make it clear somewhere that if someone from a family objects to my use of a photo, I'll remove it.

--Tim Farley

[Tamazon]

WOW!

I love, love, love your site krelnik!

I hate it when believers throw the "what's the harm" into their arguments. It makes me seethe. This is now the perfect thing to show people exactly why I am a skeptic and what we are all fighting against.

Thank-you.

[TheDoLittle]

Everyone needs to congratulate krelnik on this one!

I was sitting at the rec room at my school this morning, wolfing down a BOB (Breakfast On a Bun! It's a Whataburger thing!) hoping to get to the lab before 9:30, when 3 of the students from my department sat down on the table next to me and one of them pulled out a tarot deck. The usual teen banter went on when one of of them asked the taroist (pronounced like "terrorist") about his deck. He said he was "...going to make a fortune from being able to predict the future!". Of course, the other two made their jests and finally the "What's the harm!" phrase was thrown in the conversation.

I slammed my hand down on the table in a very dramatic way and loudly proclaimed, "WHAT'S THE HARM!?!?". The looked a little shocked but when they realized it was me, well, they know I sometimes overact in order to get a point across. I told them about all the harm that has been caused by "woo" (their new favorite phrase BTW) and pointed them to krelnik's site and Randi's blog. They spent about 10 minutes on my laptop looking at the sites expelling several "Oohs", "Ahs", and "Damn, No Ways!". He pointed out, and was correct to do so, there was no "Tarot" catagory, but I also pointed out that there is almost no division between what is considered "Fortune Telling" and "Majick".

So the taroist is keeping his cards anyway, but at least he knows when the good story should end and reality is to begin.

[Leicontis]

I thought I'd do a little to aid the cause, so I put together a draft of a convenient list of links to insert on web sites to help bump whatstheharm's search rank. Perhaps those of you with stronger google-fu than myself could check this and see what they think? I've also stuck a set of links in to help boost Operation Clambake, while I was at it.
<html>
<body>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> acupuncture </a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> alphabiotics</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> alternative medicine</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> kinesiologoy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> autism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ayurvedic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> chelation</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> chiropractic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> chiropractor</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> colloidal silver</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> argyria</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> cranio-sacral</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> detoxification</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ear candling</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ear candle</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> energy medicine</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> escharotic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> folk remedy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> herbal</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> herb</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> hiv</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> aids</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> holistic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> homeopath</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> homeopathy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> iridology</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> metal toxicity</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> naturopath</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> naturopathy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> osteopath</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> osteopathy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> homeopathic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> naturopathic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> osteopathic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> psychic surgery</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> psychic surgeon</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> quack</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> quakery</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vaccine</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vaccination</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vegetarian</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vegetarianism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vegan</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> veganism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vitamin</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> astral projection</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> curse</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> exorcism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> faith heal</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ghost</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> magick</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> psychic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> satanic ritual abuse</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vampire</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> voodoo</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> witchcraft</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> breathanarian</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> jasmuheen</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> inedia</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> christian science</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> christian scientist</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> cult</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> jehova's witness</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> religion</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> scientology</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> scientologist</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> dianetics</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> trancendental meditation</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> attachment therapy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> reactive attachment disorder</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> creationism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> repressed memory</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> apocalypse</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> conspiracy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> moon landing</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> multi-level marketing</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> pyramid scheme</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> nigerian</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> 419</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ritual</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ufo</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> y2k</a>
<a href="http://www.xenu.net"> scientology</a>
<a href="http://www.xenu.net"> scientologist</a>
<a href="http://www.xenu.net"> dianetics</a>
</body>
</html>

ETA: While it cannot be said to be a site of neutral tone, I'm surprised that you don't link Operation Clambake anywhere in the Scientology section (and btw, you might want to look at adding "attempted murder" to the Pamela Cooper entry).

[zooterkin]

Here's another; Bandō Mitsugorō VIII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band%C5%8D_Mitsugor%C5%8D_VIII) A Japanese kabuki actor who died after ordering four portions of fugu liver (one of the most poisonous parts), claiming that he could survive it.

(By a chain of coincidence, I was watching an old episode of QI, which mentioned fugu in passing, while at the same time browsing the badscience.net forum where I saw a reference to the whatstheharm.net page, and a link back here...)

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

When I was debating homeopaths I was trying to find cases where there were bad outcomes to certain things. I knew there was a case in Ireland of a woman dying from diabetes because her homeopath told her to go off her insulin, but I could not find any reference because all the homeopath sites promising to treat diabetes!

So thank you.

Your site caused a bit of indignation caused by this post:
http://organon.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/18-21-hahnemanns-organon-of-medicine/#comment-272

And it has been spread to here:
http://badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4091&start=60&sid=b9efe99d3c99f500480646bb681e45c4

[krelnik]

When I was debating homeopaths I was trying to find cases .... So thank you.

Your site caused a bit of indignation caused by this post:
http://organon.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/18-21-hahnemanns-organon-of-medicine/#comment-272


Thank you, as well! I had noticed that site in my referrer logs last night and I was quite amused to read the conversation that ensued there.

I'm in Florida at TAM 5.5 right now, and I was quite pleased to be able to tell people last night that a homeopath said, in reference to my project, "the site HCN posted is abominable". I call that a ringing endorsement.

I have a question about that blog -- is the blog itself pro- or anti- homeopathy, or neutral? I see comments on both sides, but the actual blog posts seem to just be straight quotes from Hahnemann.

--Tim Farley

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

...I have a question about that blog -- is the blog itself pro- or anti- homeopathy, or neutral? I see comments on both sides, but the actual blog posts seem to just be straight quotes from Hahnemann.

--Tim Farley

It is anit-homeopathy. You may be able to tell because none of the skeptic posts are deleted. ;)

It was started by Gimpy after one of the homoepaths accused Nash of not reading the Organon. So I posted some snippets from homeopathy.com in reply on his blog. So he started up the "Blogging the Organon" blog:
http://gimpyblog.wordpress.com/2008/01/13/blogging-the-organon/


It is also being discussed here:
http://badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4091&sid=de70e26e52ed5aacbeeaaa3f94981b7f

[bencg]

congrats on a great site krelnik :) Good enough to get me to delurk!

Have you thought of having a web-form or somesuch for users to submit entries? With the right fields you could just check over the entries and add them straight into your db.

I have pm-ed you some details/links for Dena Schlosser, (killed her eleven-month-old daughter, Margaret Schlosser, in 2004, amputating the baby's arms with a knife and offering her to God).

Keep up the good work :D

[bencg]

I found a couple more similar cases; mentally ill but religiously inspired infanticide :(

www_DOT_religionnewsblog.com/9710/moms-who-kill-children-have-religion-in-common

No doubt these mothers are severely mentally ill, but the god factor is important as it seems to have prevented treatment;

“They’re not seeing this as a mental illness. They’re seeing it as the person having demons, perhaps, or a sin problem or not being spiritually fulfilled,” said Roger Olson, a theology professor at Baylor’s Truett Seminary.

sad and scary.

[Leicontis]

So, not seeing any suggestions for changes to the googlebomb code, I'll add it to my website and encourage others to do so.

Does anyone know if the page needs to be linked to for its links to count to Google?

[tim]

I haven't had the chance to read the entire thread or the Website, but you might want to look into the removal of a load of kids from their parents from the Orkney Islands (Western Isles) of Scotland for Satanic Ritual Abuse.

[BobP]

Krelnik -
Nice design, excellent idea.
Further suggestions (- and I expect you already have about 500)
1. In what order are the records presented? I would suggest descending order of date, using the date of the most recent news item. This way topical subjects (even if old) would appear near the top - e.g. when malpractice leads to a trial, which may take a couple of years. There would also be a greater chance of a news "hit" at the top of the lists, given that news items may go offline after a few months.
2. Obviously you need a form so that people can add or update records. If you design it right, and if you have a group of trusted contributors, then you will only need to vet & approve the updates; your role will be site management and (minimal) editing.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Posted on Healthfraud listserv this morning by Dr. Barrett: Woman dies painfully from cancer after treatment from homeopath:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/105581

[RichardR]

This nun certainly suffered because of her beliefs (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/01/30/romania.exorcism.ap/index.html):

A former priest began a seven-year jail term Wednesday for murdering a young nun during an exorcism ritual when she was bound, chained to a cross and denied food and water for days.

[Leicontis]

New developments in the Wesley Snipes tax denial case.

Thread here. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=104912)

[arthwollipot]

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the acronym for the Wall of Harm is a Keanuesque "woh"...

[Powa]

Duuuuude!

[RichardR]

I thought I'd do a little to aid the cause, so I put together a draft of a convenient list of links to insert on web sites to help bump whatstheharm's search rank. Perhaps those of you with stronger google-fu than myself could check this and see what they think? I've also stuck a set of links in to help boost Operation Clambake, while I was at it.
<html>
<body>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> acupuncture </a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> alphabiotics</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> alternative medicine</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> kinesiologoy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> autism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ayurvedic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> chelation</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> chiropractic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> chiropractor</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> colloidal silver</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> argyria</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> cranio-sacral</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> detoxification</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ear candling</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ear candle</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> energy medicine</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> escharotic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> folk remedy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> herbal</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> herb</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> hiv</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> aids</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> holistic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> homeopath</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> homeopathy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> iridology</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> metal toxicity</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> naturopath</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> naturopathy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> osteopath</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> osteopathy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> homeopathic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> naturopathic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> osteopathic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> psychic surgery</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> psychic surgeon</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> quack</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> quakery</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vaccine</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vaccination</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vegetarian</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vegetarianism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vegan</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> veganism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vitamin</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> astral projection</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> curse</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> exorcism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> faith heal</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ghost</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> magick</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> psychic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> satanic ritual abuse</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vampire</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> voodoo</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> witchcraft</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> breathanarian</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> jasmuheen</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> inedia</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> christian science</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> christian scientist</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> cult</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> jehova's witness</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> religion</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> scientology</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> scientologist</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> dianetics</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> trancendental meditation</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> attachment therapy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> reactive attachment disorder</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> creationism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> repressed memory</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> apocalypse</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> conspiracy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> moon landing</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> multi-level marketing</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> pyramid scheme</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> nigerian</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> 419</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ritual</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ufo</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> y2k</a>
<a href="http://www.xenu.net"> scientology</a>
<a href="http://www.xenu.net"> scientologist</a>
<a href="http://www.xenu.net"> dianetics</a>
</body>
</html>
Won't those links all point to the site's Introduction page? Shouldn't they point to the relevant sub-page?

[RichardR]

Maybe I missed it, but shouldn't the site have an email contact (or at least a submission form) so people can submit their own harm stories? Not everyone will be registered on JREF.

Also, after a while, you could put up a page of responses from the woomeisters - you know, like Ratbags hate mail (http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/files/mailbox.htm) page.

[The_Animus]

You might want to create a backup of the pages you link to for your supporting evidence. As you said webpages and articles will continually expire and no longer be available sometime in the future. This way if it does expire, you will still have the original article in its entirety on your site.

[arthwollipot]

You might want to create a backup of the pages you link to for your supporting evidence. As you said webpages and articles will continually expire and no longer be available sometime in the future. This way if it does expire, you will still have the original article in its entirety on your site.Yeah, but check copyright provisions first. Creating backups of articles may be illegal.

[Soapy Sam]

Interesting site, Krelnik, with lots of scope for expansion- Thinking of your OP made this off topic thought pop into my head-
Do the Vietnames have an equivalent of "The Vietnam Wall"?
How many names on it?

[krelnik]

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone! I've captured all the case information you've posted and am working on updating the database today.

Some of you may have noticed that I did a site update earlier in the week, incorporating several of the general suggestions. I've updated the FAQ, added a contact page and added other improvements. For one thing, you can like directly to a case by the person's name now, like this:

http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html#les_limage

(The person links are always their names in lower case, minus any non-alphabetic characters, and with spaces replaced with underscores. When in doubt, view the HTML source and look for the <A name=""> tag).

Some of your suggestions will have to wait a bit. In particular, the various suggestions about different sorting or presentations of the data, summaries, subtotals and the like. I'm deliberately holding off on that stuff. I feel like right now I'm in "catch up" mode. I'm still finding many, many cases that are 10 or more years old. As a result, I feel like data-mining or other manipulation this data is premature. It's like trying to use a phone book that has pages ripped out.

For those who asked: the pages are sorted alphabetically by victim's name right now. However, I have deliberately rigged the sorting so that "anonymous" cases sort to the bottom of each list. I think cases with names are more compelling so I want them at the top.

I do have a search box on the site now, and it searches not only my site but also the pages I link to. So you can search cases based on details that I don't include. The search is a bit quirky right now because Google has only crawled me once, and missed a few pages. Keep googlebombing the site and that should clear up. I'm gonna tweak my search engine definition and sitemap too, which hopefully will goose the googlebot into covering me better.

Thanks again for all the help, and keep them coming!

[krelnik]

As I mentioned above, every time I whip out my Google-fu I can find more cases for the site. Many are years old, but often were never written about in the skepti-sphere. I find them buried in the oddest places, too. I found a woman who treated her cancer with homeopathy (with predictable outcome) in a theater review in the New York Times (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE6DA1338F934A35751C0A9649582 60&pagewanted=2) for petes sake!

I get the feeling that there are hundreds of these cases out there, just waiting to be found. You folks can help me with this!

Tip 1: Simply combining the name of some form of woo with the word "died" or "injured", often gets amazing results. For example, "naturopath died (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=naturopath+died&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)". It is worth nothing that Google will return variant forms of the word without you doing anything special, so for instance a search for "homeopath" will return an article with only "homeopathic" in it if the other search terms match. (It didn't used to work this way, I'm not sure when Google added that).

Tip 2: Use the archive search on Google News. Current news stories often get alot of attention here in the forums. That makes older stories much more useful. You can search older news at Google here:

http://news.google.com/archivesearch

There are tools there to limit the year as well, another good way to avoid cases I already have.

One amusing thing about this: the New York Times has over 100 years of archives online now, so if you search on "quack" or "homeopath", you can find stories from 1895 that seem not too different from the modern ones.

Remember, however, I'm deliberately confining What's The Harm to the last 50 years (with a few exceptions for notable stories). This is because I think the idea that people believed crazy stuff in 1780 is just not that surprising to anyone. For other guidelines on what I'm looking for in cases, see http://whatstheharm.net/contact.html.

Tip 3: Please check the site to see if I already have the case! No sense wasting your time on something I already have. However, if you find a link that is better than the link I'm using on a given story, feel free to send that in.

Tip 4: Pick a category I don't have many cases in. If you don't have a favorite form of woo that you would rather concentrate on, browse the whatstheharm.net topics list (http://whatstheharm.net/index.html) and pick a topic I have under 20 cases in. (There are a bunch). This makes it easier to avoid having to scroll through stories I already have while searching.

Tip 5: If you have non-web resources available, use them. Anybody have access to Lexis/Nexis or other non-public databases? Many news web sites cycle their stories very quickly. I've had some of my links go stale just in the four months I've been doing this. But those pay databases keep everything. I'm thinking the same search techniques that I mention above might work well there. If you can limit to older stories only, so much the better.


Finally, please start sending all CASE STORIES to this address:

SUBMIT (at) WHATSTHEHARM (dot) NET

I can manage the workload better using the email as a queue. One case per email with the victim's name in the subject line makes that even easier, but I'll take anything you send me!

Thanks again for all the help.

[krelnik]

It occurs to me that the "quackery" category I have is not that useful from the stand point of appealing to believers. What believer would ever click on it? Who ever thinks they are going to a quack?

I'm thinking about combining those cases under another sort of catch-all category I have which is "Alternative medicine". I use that one for woo-ish medical cases that don't obviously fit into one of the more precise categories like "homeopathy". (Though sometimes I double-tag cases that have multiple modalities, one vague and one specific).

Thoughts?

[Father Dagon]

Psychics that leads police out on wild goose chases?

[BobP]

Hi Krelnik,

I just got this thrown in my face on the Hpathy forums:

Here's another issue you have to factor in--is a person with leukemia close to death because of all the inappropriate and toxic radiation and chemotherapeutic agents he has ingested? You cannot separate the two, because you can't show me a leukemia patient anywhere who is not burdened with this treatment.

So maybe there's a need for another category - Doing Nothing ??

[Phaycops]

I like the site -- I even blogged about it (ok, ok, only after Bad Astronomer blogged it, but still, I did MEAN to!). I think the descriptions of the cases could be a little bit longer. I'd be more than happy to devote a couple weekends to helping you out. Drop me a PM if you'd like -- though I understand that getting the site operational first is probably more your priority.

[krelnik]

The super-short summaries was originally a limitation of the cheesy cobbled-together database I'm using to generate the site. But actually I think it is a good thing to keep them as short as possible. There's always the supporting links to go to for additional details.

That having been said, if there's a specific story that you think isn't coming across well in my summary, feel free to suggest a better summary! I'm not overly attached to my own verbiage.

Another great way you can help out right now is to follow the tips I posted in response #123 above (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3417860&postcount=123), and find more stories to add to the site. They're pretty easy to find, the hardest part is avoiding duplication of stories I already have.

[Phaycops]

The super-short summaries was originally a limitation of the cheesy cobbled-together database I'm using to generate the site. But actually I think it is a good thing to keep them as short as possible. There's always the supporting links to go to for additional details.


The thing I think some people are worried about is that if you point someone to the site and say "yeah, THERE'S the harm," they might be put off or exasperated by the aggressively short descriptions, and certainly aren't going to be in a mindset to be following links and doing their own research. I mean, that's why we're pointing them to the site in the first place, right? Because they are misinformed? In any event, I think you're right -- getting the actual number of cases logged ought to be your first priority, then you can worry about prettyin' up the site :D. I'll do some google-fu this weekend if I have time!

ETA: PS -- if anyone has access to the Lexis-Nexis database, that would be an EXCELLENT source for news stories.

[Phaycops]

PS -- a couple friends I pointed towards the site didn't realize that the little "?" dealys are links to additional info. Just FYI!

[krelnik]

PS -- a couple friends I pointed towards the site didn't realize that the little "?" dealys are links to additional info. Just FYI!

Yeah, I've gotten some emails in the last few days where it eventually became clear to me that the person never followed the links. One person even asked me where my supporting information was.

I need to do something with those icons to make it more obvious. I don't want to have the full title of the link because I think it will draw attention away from the stories. Hmmm, maybe something short like this:

Peter Sellers (actor)
Age: 54
Dorchester, England
Died (untreated heart condition)
July 24, 1980

A heart attack in 1964 had permanently damaged his heart. His doctors were advising bypass surgery, but he delayed it and instead saw psychic surgeons twice a year. He died of a massive heart attack. Discovery Channel (http://www.exn.ca/stories/2000/08/21/55.asp) Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Sellers)

[arthwollipot]

That would work for me. I took a while to catch on too. I thought I was just being slow on the uptake.

[arthwollipot]

You've just hit the bigtime, krelnik. Someone's just linked to your site (http://community.livejournal.com/skepticaldebate/30312.html) in the Skepticaldebate community (http://community.livejournal.com/skepticaldebate/) of LiveJournal. I don't know if the poster is a contributor here or not.

[krelnik]

Just a little bump here to note that I put a bunch of updates on the site this weekend. There are several new categories including "alternative dentistry" and "reparative therapy".

Here are my two favorite recently added stories:

http://whatstheharm.net/herbalremedies.html#sedef_olcer
http://whatstheharm.net/conspiracytheories.html#richard_mccaslin

The latter one came from another thread here on JREF after I mentioned the site.

As always, there's still more work to do, including the design-related fixes such as changing the icons. And I still want to provide a way to jump to related categories from within a story.

Keep those new cases coming to submit (at) whatstheharm (dot) net, and thanks again to everyone. You've all been invaluable help.