Please help with the "Wall of Harm"

[krelnik]

Skeptics, I need your help. But first, a story. (Apologies for the length, I promise it's worth it).

A couple of months ago I was thinking about the topic of the upcoming TAM: Skepticism & Activism (http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/48/39/). I thought I should find a project to work on to be more of a positive contributor to the skeptical community. Around that time, this Sylvia Browne thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=95625) got me thinking about the “what’s the harm” idea that comes up periodically on (http://rockstarramblings.blogspot.com/2007/05/doggerel-80-whats-harm.html) skeptic (http://skepdic.com/refuge/harmarchive.html) websites (http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir=articles&article=what_is_the_harm.php). There are many (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=35081) threads (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=171) on (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=77890) this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=22655) here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=24984) at (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=59197) JREF (http://forums.randi.org/tags/index.php/harm/) as well.

I like the harm discussions that include actual cases, but there's two problems with them. One is that the news links within tend to expire (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=37901) pretty quickly, and the details of the stories get lost. Another is that this information is scattered around the web and not easily found. As a result, you don’t easily get a sense of scope.

Thinking about scope, I flashed on an image of the Vietnam Memorial in Washington DC (http://thewall-usa.com/). If you’ve never seen it, it is a huge black stone wall that has carved into it the names of all of the 58,000+ Americans who died in that war. Standing in front of it can fill you with a sense of awe. There are several reasons it is a powerful experience, but one is that it really drives home the scope. People in general have a hard time with large numbers. You can intellectually understand the scope of "58,000 people died," but seeing those names on that wall stretching out for hundreds of feet creates an emotional impact.

It occurred to me that we skeptics could use something like that to create an emotional impact of the power of non-critical thinking. Perhaps this can become a tool to keep ourselves motivated. Of course, I’m not proposing we build a stone monument. But we can build one made of bits.

And so I present "The Wall of Harm" currently temporarily located here: krelnik.home.mindspring.com/harm/.

As I write this, it contains info on 2,396 people who have died and 17,631 people who have been hurt in some way by some form of woo. The cases are grouped by categories for browsing, and every one includes a supporting link or two.

My general philosophy on what cases I’ve included:

Good documentation. I avoided anonymous web postings, unless the site posting it is very well trusted. Mostly I used news links (often two) or scientific journal papers.
Clear harm. Someone was injured or died, or lost significant money as a direct or indirect result of some type of woo. "Wasted their free time for years ghost-hunting" is not compelling. "Committed suicide after replacing anti-depressants with homeopathy," on the other hand, is compelling.
Details, details, details. Cases with name, date, place and especially a victim photo are more compelling.
Recent. I stayed within the last fifty years. After all, are stories about people believing crazy stuff back in 1607 in any way surprising?
No "hate crimes". There are too many of these, they'd overwhelm the other categories. And, like ancient stuff, they aren't surprising to anyone.So what do I want from you?

The Purpose of this Thread:

DO: Help me find more cases to add.
DO: Help me find categories I haven’t covered. There has got to be a cryptozoologist who drowned in Loch Ness, or a UFO person who caught pneumonia camping out to wait for the aliens to arrive. Help me find them!
DO: Offer corrections on the existing data. Note that cases can appear in multiple categories, feel free to point out opportunities I’ve missed in that area. (The religion areas could probably use some help in tagging).
DO: Comment on the overall presentation and ways to make it more compelling. (Yes, I know my HTML is lame).NOT the Purpose of this Thread:

DO NOT: Argue that some of these folks brought it on themselves.
DO NOT: Argue about the value of anecdotes.
DO NOT: Argue about how as skeptics we should be more scientific and precise than this.
DO NOT: Argue about causality vs. correlation between the woo and the harm in these cases.If you are compelled to talk about any of those four things, please read this first: krelnik.home.mindspring.com/harm/critics.html. If you still want to comment, threads are free. Please start your own thread and tag it with "wall of harm" and I promise I’ll join you.

PLEASE do not blog about the wall of harm yet. Do not post it anywhere but on this forum. It is only in prototype form, a "beta" if you will. I plan to clean it up based on your comments here and move it to a more permanent home very soon. At that time I’ll be begging you to link to it, so be patient.

I would like to thank JeffWagg, scotth, ottle, Cleon, RemieV, moopet, Zygar, Loon and others in the JREF IRC channel who helped me with links and suggestions as I worked on this.

[arthwollipot]

Sounds like a good idea - although I'm not sure what I personally can contribute. You have all my moral support though.

[Aepervius]

overall presentation suggestion
If you want to have a psychological impact, take the picture of a granite monument (or even the true one of vietnam, or 9/11 but this could land you in hot water so an anonym granite tomb might do the trick). Then photoshop out the name in the monument. Then add the name of the victim & wounded. Above add "fallen victim of (insert wooism)" list_of_name. "fallen victim of (another wooism)" list_of_name etc....

In other word, make it a true wall of shame. Shock value.

As it is right no your web site is... bland.

PS: I do not have real artistic skills, but I could maybe find such a photo and add a granite texture over the name if you wish.

[DeVega]

Great idea Krelnik, well done! I can see you've already done a huge amount of work on this. I don't have much constructive to offer, I'm afraid - but I just wanted to lend my support too. I know other here have screeds of such information - Kelly, on the missing persons and RSL or Enny on Psychics...

Good luck with the project!

[kosai]

Aepervius, something like this? I made it in Photoshop as a joke but it could have a much more somber design to it...

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1502/gameovertaggedgz2.jpg
By travisjd (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/travisjd) at 2008-01-09

[RSLancastr]

Krelnik, I think that this is a very worthy project.

After a quick look, a few comments:

1. Audience: I think you should write it for a wider audience, not just for skeptics. In fact, I think that if you write it with "believers" and the families/friends of believers in mind as your audience, the site could be more beneficial, and still be of great use to skeptics as well. One way to do this would be to eliminate the use of the word "woo," and replace it with a less inflammatory term or phrase.

2. Presentation: While the content is what is important, the presentation can make it much more professional and help with the impact.

3. Database: If you are serious about maintaining and enlarging the site, you should give very serious thought to putting the information in a database, and use some database-driven application to create the pages on the fly, rather than your maintaining each page by hand. As you add more and more entries to the Wall, this will become more and more unwieldy, and will limit your ability to make changes to the overall site. I made the same mistake with the SSB site, and regret it. Perhaps Scotth could give you some advice in this area.

4. Links: Your links to other information could benefit from roll-over text to help someone decide whether to click on the link or not. Or, aech link could have a description next to it, such as those used at the bottom of Snopes.com entries. This is yet another area where a database-driven approach would help you. You might also consider making these external links open to a separate browser window. I prefer this approach, but it may be a personal preference.

These are some initial thoughts. Again, I think it is a worthy project, and a wonderful idea. Congrats on following through with it!

[tkingdoll]

Superb idea, well done.

As RSL says, this could be a powerful tool if aimed at believers, I would try and make it as 'neutral' as you can, as those who will learn the most from it may be put off by any obvious signs of skeptic bias.

I think you have something really useful here. When it's finished I will certainly use your figures as an illustration of the harm caused. Perhaps this will be the new rhetoric to replace the MDC!

[Spektator]

Krelnik, I think you could add Peter Sellers to the list of famous people harmed by charlatans. If I recall correctly, he knew he needed heart surgery, dreaded it, postponed it, and actually flew halfway around the world to consult a "psychic surgeon" shortly before he had his fatal heart attack; he died on 24 July 1980.

[krelnik]

1. Audience: I think you should write it for a wider audience, not just for skeptics. In fact, I think that if you write it with "believers" and the families/friends of believers in mind as your audience, the site could be more beneficial, and still be of great use to skeptics as well. One way to do this would be to eliminate the use of the word "woo," and replace it with a less inflammatory term or phrase.


That's a great idea, I'll have to think about how to thread that through the whole thing.


3. Database: If you are serious about maintaining and enlarging the site, you should give very serious thought to putting the information in a database


Actually, it already is in a database. I quickly learned that many of the stories fit in multiple categories, and I definitely didn't want to be copying around info. Also some of the supporting URLs cover multiple stories, and I didn't want to be copying those around either.

It's an offline database right now, I run a little program I wrote on my PC that spits out the HTML, which I then upload. If it snowballs and I start getting 20 additions a day or something, I'll definitely transition it to an online database and dynamically generated pages.


4. Links: Your links to other information could benefit from roll-over text to help someone decide whether to click on the link or not.


I agree, and that capability is actually already there. (Click on Acupuncture then hover over the third link). I just haven't filled in the roll over text in the database yet. I'll work on getting that fixed today.

You might also consider making these external links open to a separate browser window. I prefer this approach, but it may be a personal preference.


Oh, I hadn't thought of that.... good idea.

Thanks for the comments, all very good ones.

[RSLancastr]

Comedian Andy Kaufman also went to a psychic surgeon not long before he died, but I don't know if he died because he relied on the quack, or if he was beyond medical help by that point anyway. I seem to recall it was the latter, but am uncertain.

[krelnik]

Krelnik, I think you could add Peter Sellers to the list of famous people harmed by charlatans.

Oooh, thanks. Via Wikipedia I found a link to support that (http://www.exn.ca/stories/2000/08/21/55.asp) (with a quote from Randi, who personally spoke to Sellers about this).

Part I of the same story (http://www.exn.ca/stories/2000/08/21/54.asp) also mentions Andy Kaufmann getting psychic surgery for his lung cancer. (I had heard that about Kaufmann before but had forgotten it).

I think I need a psychic surgery category now. Many thanks, Spek!

[krelnik]

Thanks for all the help, folks! I like the suggestion to make the text of the site more neutral, to attract believers.

I need a term to replace "woo", however. What's a good term that sounds neutral, which encompasses all the crazy stuff we refer to when we say "woo"?

--Tim Farley

P.S. I just updated the site with the two cases mentioned above and a new Psychic surgery category.

[kosai]

You can include this article in your 419 page:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/05/15/060515fa_fact


The more I've looked at the site, I think it's a great idea... I am a graphic designer (but I work in print not web) so I have a little input for you. I would take the "granite" backgrounds from behind the stories, it really isn't good for readability. Also, I don't particularly like the "i" icons for links as it's not super apparent what those are for. If you want some help with the design aspects, I'd be glad to donate some time. Overall though I love the simplicity of the design on the main page, I might just add 1 or 2 graphic elements like a header on the top of the page instead of using just text. I made a simple one for you you could try out on the page if you wish.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6164/wthwy4.jpg
By travisjd (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/travisjd) at 2008-01-09

feel free to use it as is or we can discuss it more. Great job, keep it up!

[RSLancastr]

Actually, it already is in a database.Ah, execllent.

I quickly learned that many of the stories fit in multiple categories, and I definitely didn't want to be copying around info.Exactly.

It's an offline database right now, I run a little program I wrote on my PC that spits out the HTML, which I then upload.I did that with one of my early sites. It's a good intermediate step.

I agree, and that capability is actually already there. (Click on Acupuncture then hover over the third link).Ah!

[Thing]

This is brilliant, huge congratulations. Very quickly 'cos I'm on my way out the door:
1 Transcendental has an s in it;

2 It might at some stage need a FAQ addressing questions such as "this person had XXXX, that's what killed them not the YYYY, medical science can't always cure XXXX".

3 How about a system of traffic light colours like on snopes, red for definitely killed by the woo, amber for woo present at time of death etc?

Again I think it's wonderful.

[RSLancastr]

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6164/wthwy4.jpg
By travisjd (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/travisjd)
Nice! The question mark reflects the "what," but it would be nice if there were a graphic element representing "harm" as well.

What if you distorted the word "harm" a little? Or made it look "broken"?

Or it might be nice if the "what" and the "harm" could be in one graphic element, such as the question mark next to... something.

Just knocking ideas around.

[ObscureReferenceMan]

This is definitely a Good Thing. Please keep us updated!

Small anecdote... Years ago, I saw Randi at a NY Skeptic (I believe) gig. At the close of his talk on psychic surgery, he said something along the lines of, "They (psychic surgeons) owe us Peter Sellers back." Gave me a lump in my throat - I was a huge Peter Sellers fan. That has often been my response to the "What harm does it do?" question.

[kosai]

I'm not really one to distort text but I agree some other graphic element to represent "harm" would be nice, just not sure what that would be. I'll work on it a bit more, if anyone has any ideas please speak up. Here's the way I'd change the page if it were mine...

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9341/wth2qm4.jpg
By travisjd (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/travisjd) at 2008-01-09

[ThatSoundAgain]

More neutral term for woo: Superstition, quackery maybe? Superstition would definitely be understood by everyone, but might not be accurate for all categories.

On the design, you could either go for a full-blown portal style (think Yahoo category view), or for a simpler, searchable site with the looks of a blog or small newspaper. Photo reports, cover stories, anyone? We definitely need to consider chipping in for a domain name.

kosai, your header looks good. Have you tried it with the question mark aligned vertically with the headline (along with the bubble), and offset a bit to the left? Oh, and I agree it'd be best to either lose the granite, or make it look better - individual, more physical slabs that are less busy behind the text.

A sober, centered design would look good, I think. Something like this (http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=194/194.css), this (http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=158/158.css), this (http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=149/149.css) or this (http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=174/174.css).

Great initiative!

[monkeypox]

A stylized skull in the hollow part of the lower case "a" in harm, perhaps simple like the Punisher comic book logo.
The "m" at the end of harm looks like two generic tombstones, perhaps incorporate that somehow.
The typical (but imho tacky) dripping blood red lettering for harm.
Cartoonish ideas, but might fit in with the clean & bold look of the title graphic.
There are many "fractured & ruptured" fonts to be found for "harm" if that is what you are looking for.

[RSLancastr]

I'm not really one to distort text

Not distort so much as "break." As in, make it look as though it had been sliced diagonally in two, and the two pieces had slid slightly askew from each other, sort of like an eartqhuake faultline. Just a thought.

but I agree some other graphic element to represent "harm" would be nice, just not sure what that would be. I'll work on it a bit more, if anyone has any ideas please speak up.Perhaps an answering "word balloon" on the right side, with some icon of danger inside? A skull? And that image could "float" to the right, much like the word "forum" floats to the right of the banner at the top of the JREF forum when you resize the page.

Or, to put it all into one logo image, erhaps somehow merge the question mark with a skull? Or perhaps the yellow triangle warning sign with a question mark in it? Or perhaps I'm just traffic sign oriented... :D

[kosai]

Robert thanks for the ideas... I must say you have my favorite traffic sign inspired logo on the web. For my idea, I was trying to come up with some things that we skeptics might generally not consider "harm" but as I (hope and) think this page is going to be sold to a more general audience, what if we were to use the "devil horns," it fits nicely into the existing logo and does bring a sense that I think is the point we are trying to get across that the REAL evil in this world is caused by the acts featured below.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4636/wth3go9.jpg
By travisjd (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/travisjd) at 2008-01-09

I guess I feel a little bad about incorporating a "woo" belief into the logo itself but I'll wait for feedback.

[CFLarsen]

I don't think it's a good idea to keep it gruesome.

It should be factual, first and foremost. It should bury(!) the reader with evidence, not emotions. It should be a testament to the fact that people get hurt from woo beliefs - but it shouldn't be "emotional porn" (Danish term - you get the picture).

Do what the site does already: List(!) the facts, and let people decide. Strike a note of somberness, but don't piss on the people we are supposed to fight for. The last thing anyone wants is a site that is seen as exploitational.

Nocturne. Not Dies Irae.

Just my two ears.

http://www.skepticreport.com/images/jref/h-0001.jpg

http://www.skepticreport.com/images/jref/h-0002.jpg

Forget the inconsistencies - this is merely a mockup, to get a general idea of how it could look.

And yes, I make these for breakfast.

[kosai]

With the new logo...

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6928/wth4nw8.jpg
By travisjd (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/travisjd) at 2008-01-09

[Miss Whiplash]

Great idea! Add magician Doug Henning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Henning) to the wall. He blew his entire magic act and fortune to follow TM.

[tkingdoll]

I like where CFL has taken that, with the profiles. Much more visual and easy to scan.

[krelnik]

Wow, everyone! Thanks for all the design ideas and pitching in. (And several of you sent me name additions for the database in PMs, thanks to you too if I didn't already thank you individually).

I have to agree with Claus and Teek on the "keep it neutral" idea. If we're gonna try to catch some believers with this, things like devil horns and skulls are an immediate turn-off. (I admit I hadn't originally thought about believers reading this site, but the more I think about it the more it appeals to me).

I do like kosai's logo, and also much of the layout and design stuff that Claus has done. (I particularly like repeating the overall totals in the top of each page, and having some navigation on the left).

I'm busy with work stuff for the next couple of days, so I can't integrate this stuff right away, but I'll start thinking about what its going to take to make it happen.

Thanks for all the ideas, folks. Keep them coming!

--Tim Farley

[Tressa]

Great idea! Very impressive.

[rjh01]

How about a comments page?

Replace woo with believers like you did in your last post.

[krelnik]

I have three entries in the database right now that are actually cities or states. They are as follows:

La Grulla, Texas (under Psychics)
Dover, Pennsylvania (under Creationism)
California (under Satanic abuse hysteria)

In each case, the town/city/state suffered an economic loss because of woo. Now, each entry in the database also has two "person" counts, one for dead and one for injured. That way I can cover things like medical studies or mass suicides in one entry.

Here's the question: should I list the entire population of these towns under the "injured" field?

On one hand, I don't want to be accused of padding the numbers.

Also, one could argue that not ALL of the residents of that town were necessarily harmed. (For instance, a retired resident of Dover who doesn't use the schools?)

On the other hand, it looks goofy to have these items listed as "1 person". (For example, see the Creationism page which only has 2 entries now, and look at the total at the top).

Thoughts?

[ThatSoundAgain]

While the numbers look impressive, they could maybe be left out so the discussion of this point wouldn't drown out the criticism. Alternatively, you could have an entirely different field for "suffered economic loss", have the option of N/A or have a special field in your database for arbitrary text ("school children in Kansas").

Actually, maybe you should have a few different categories and only show those that are relevant. Economic losses could be specified in dollars or in number of persons scammed (or whatever). But only for those entries where it's relevant.

[rjh01]

I have three entries in the database right now that are actually cities or states. They are as follows:

La Grulla, Texas (under Psychics)
Dover, Pennsylvania (under Creationism)
California (under Satanic abuse hysteria)

In each case, the town/city/state suffered an economic loss because of woo. Now, each entry in the database also has two "person" counts, one for dead and one for injured. That way I can cover things like medical studies or mass suicides in one entry.

Here's the question: should I list the entire population of these towns under the "injured" field?
<snip>


You could have another category that counts governments harmed by woo. Then another one for other organisations harmed by woo.

[krelnik]

Yes, I already have a dollar figure in another field. I'm just wondering if it should also be reflected in the people count to indicate how many persons were harmed by that loss of money.

[Aepervius]

I like the version of CFlarsen (the one at the bottom), visual picture of the victim help make impact. The problem is, do you need the authorization of the victim family ?

[Halcyon Dayz]

Lysenkoism alone got tens of millions of people killed.

You are going to need the Great Wall of China to write all the names down.

ETA: Dutch actress Sylvia Millecam.

[kosai]

I like the version of CFlarsen (the one at the bottom), visual picture of the victim help make impact. The problem is, do you need the authorization of the victim family ?

You would need authorization from the photographer actually. While it would be nice, you would most likely need a budget in order to gain usage rights for those photos.

[krelnik]

Lysenkoism alone got tens of millions of people killed.

I think that falls out of my "last 50 years" mandate from the OP, but correct me if I'm wrong.

ETA: Dutch actress Sylvia Millecam.

She's been in there since before the original post. (There's a page that has all my cases on it, look on the lower right of the main page. With that loaded up you can easily search to see if I already have a given case using your browser).

Keep the suggestions coming, though, they are appreciated!

--Tim Farley

[Halcyon Dayz]

Lysenkoism alone got tens of millions of people killed.
I think that falls out of my "last 50 years" mandate from the OP, but correct me if I'm wrong.
China's Great Leap Forward (1958-60) got at least 14 million people killed, and was, at least in part, based in Lysenkoism.


Dutch actress Sylvia Millecam.She's been in there since before the original post. (There's a page that has all my cases on it, look on the lower right of the main page. With that loaded up you can easily search to see if I already have a given case using your browser).
:o

Keep the suggestions coming, though, they are appreciated!
:)

[sopsyched]

Here's the question: should I list the entire population of these towns under the "injured" field?


One option is to put the entire population number, but put it in the database as a negative value. The negative would be a special designation for "up to", "perhaps", "approximately", "population of", etc. In other words, the database number would be -10000 and the script to create the page would test if the number is negative, and if so, attach the prefix and print the absolute value. This makes it easy to differentiate the number from the exact ones (and exclude it from any calculations) so you can't be accused of padding, but also to show it without needing extra fields.

Another option, instead of or in addition to the above, would be to use a special number that wouldn't otherwise occur in that field (i.e., "-1") and replace it with "Unknown" "Uncountable" "Varies" "Unknowable" "Multiple" "Many" "Too many to count" "Entire Community" "Entire Population", etc, when the page is generated.

[brettDbass]

I'd like to nominate the case of Gina Stevenson, jailed in my home town a while ago...

http://www.theskepticexpress.com/In_search_of_Fame_and_Fortune.php

[dogjones]

From Bermuda. Dentist (why is it always dentists??) Dr. Amenemhat Waset Amen-Re Tamerry - formerly known as Clark Godwin - and his wife Maatkai Hatsheput Tamerry killed their 10 month old daughter A'maya with extreme vegetarianism. They were convicted of manslaughter in 2004 and recently the conviction was quashed on appeal. But the baby's still dead.

http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Search/results.jsp

http://bermudasun.bm/Main.asp?SectionID=24&ArticleID=33062

snip
The trial in 2004 had heard that, instead of providing the baby girl with balanced nutrition and proper medical care, the couple relied on Irish Sea Moss in conformity to their vegetarian lifestyle.

She lost weight dramatically over the last months of her life and died suffering from major organic deterioration.

[krelnik]

Great cases, brett and dog, thanks!

I have one or two others where people tried to feed newborns a vegetarian/vegan diet with catastrophic effects, I may have to add a category for that one.

[NobbyNobbs]

I tried to post this idea before, but I must have missed the submit button.


How about a "Close Calls" page? Stories like:

Jane Doe's psychic friend told her that the chest pains she was experiencing were do to an imbalance in her chi. If she'd meditate and experience acupuncture, it would go away. After three weeks of this therapy, Jane's condition got worse. She decided to go to a board-certified doctor. After doing some scans, it was discovered that she had an arrythmia. The surgery was successful and is credited with saving her life.

[NobbyNobbs]

double post

[kosai]

I tried to post this idea before, but I must have missed the submit button.


How about a "Close Calls" page? Stories like:

Jane Doe's psychic friend told her that the chest pains she was experiencing were do to an imbalance in her chi. If she'd meditate and experience acupuncture, it would go away. After three weeks of this therapy, Jane's condition got worse. She decided to go to a board-certified doctor. After doing some scans, it was discovered that she had an arrythmia. The surgery was successful and is credited with saving her life.


If skeptics made Chick Tracts this would be the plot of like 90 of them.

[AK-Dave]

Death of nurse by ear candle:
http://www.akjusticecommission.com/uploaded_documents/Tundra_Drums_02-03-05.pdf

Story starts on front page and continues on page 18. Could not find the Anchorage Daily News article on it. When this happened, the newspaper had a quote from someone at the state fire marshalls office supporting ear candling. I called the office (a former cow-orker worked there) and complained about state officials supporting the use of illegal medical devices.

-David

[krelnik]

How about a "Close Calls" page? Stories like:


I agree, in fact there are already some stories like that in there. In general I used the term "delayed treatment", which is definitely a harm. Look on the scientific studies page, there are several on this very topic, since some illnesses are only curable if caught early.

Death of nurse by ear candle

That is a good one, I never would have found that one via Google. Thanks!

--Tim Farley

[AK-Dave]

That is a good one, I never would have found that one via Google. Thanks!

--Tim Farley


I could not find the other articles on the web sites of the news agencies that originated them, but I did quote the text of a KTUU.com article in an email I sent at the time. I know posting large portions of an article is usually a no-no, but there does not seem to be an option with this one. It does not appear to be on the 'net any more and it's so full of win that I really can't chop it up much:

(bolding, other than the title, is mine)
(originaly located at
http://www.ktuu.com/CMS/templates/master.asp?articleid=11389&zoneid=4)

Ear candle may have sparked fatal fire in Bethel
Wednesday, February 2, 2005 - by Sean Doogan

Anchorage, Alaska
- An ear candle could have been the cause of last Thursday's fatal apartment fire in Bethel. The Jan. 27 blaze injured four and killed Bethel nurse Ardean Selby.

The cause has not yet officially been determined, but fire officials say 60-year-old Selby could have been using an ear candle when the fire started. But what is an ear candle?

Editing for breach of copyright

[krelnik]

I know posting large portions of an article is usually a no-no, but there does not seem to be an option with this one. It does not appear to be on the 'net any more and it's so full of win...

Yes, the quick expiration of articles on news websites is a problem I've already noticed, and I've only been working on this for a couple months. It underscores the value of this database in capturing these cases before they are lost down the "memory hole". I use the Internet Wayback Machine for some links, but they don't cover the whole web.

I think I'm gonna have to start archiving articles for the site just in case. It seems like a common practice on the web, if you go to Rick Ross's cult site or any of the Scientology sites, they often post the entire text of long-expired news stories. Yes, I know technically this is a violation of copyright, but what I'm saying is the news services don't seem to be too strident about policing this. Anyone have any experience otherwise?

From Bermuda...
http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Search/results.jsp (http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Search/results.jsp)


Case in point. Dog, do you have a copy of this story? It says the story is archived when I go here.

Thanks again, everyone, and keep sending stuff in.

[krelnik]

I've updated the site with almost all of the cases you guys submitted, plus a few more I stumbled across. Thanks, everyone, and keep it up. We're now up to 2,405 people killed, 17,641 injured and over $52,586,248 in economic damages.

Every link now has a title, so you can hover over the outbound links to see what the source is. Please report any broken links or if you can find one that is better than one I have for a given case.

I've added a couple of categories to cover recently added cases.

Please keep looking for cases you know about that I may have missed, and especially cases that reflect forms of woo that are currently unrepresented.

As I said I'm very busy with work this week, so I won't get a chance to incorporate the many great design ideas until sometime next week. (I probably spent too much time on this just today alone).

My current hope is to get it cleaned up, add a FAQ and some more neutral explanatory text, and move it to its own domain before TAM 5.5. That way we can all talk about it at the conference and think about what we want to do with it moving forward.

--Tim Farley

[ThatSoundAgain]

Another thing to consider is having a paper archive. Maybe not physically, but scanned and OCR'ed from local or national papers along with the web snapshots. You don't even have to make them public, short excerpts and attributions are fine for that kind of cites, and completely legal, IIRC.

This is a lot of work, though, and you'd need a network of people willing to send the local stuff in.

ETA: The point is to have the full documentation handy if anyone asks. Oh, and aren't court papers copyright-free?

[RSLancastr]

Great work, Krelnik!

I don't know the man's name, but I've heard of a case where, as a result of belief in witchcraft, a man got turned into a newt.

He got better though, so I do not know if it would be a good candidate for the Wall...

[dogjones]

Case in point. Dog, do you have a copy of this story? It says the story is archived when I go here.



Ah, I had sent you a search string which doesn't seem to be picked up on the link. The thing is there isn't really one comprehensive story; the coverage was more along the lines of various updates (it was quite big news over here). In any case, try:

http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Article/article.jsp?sectionId=60&articleId=7d2830e30030033

http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Article/article.jsp?sectionId=60&articleId=7d46c8e30030009

http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Article/article.jsp?sectionId=60&articleId=7d4648e30030011

http://www.royalgazette.com/siftology.royalgazette/Article/article.jsp?sectionId=60&articleId=7d7373330030000

These seem to have the most info on what happened. If you want to have a look at the other stories, press the "search articles" button (top left of any story) and type "Tamerry" - this brings up all the articles.

[The Bad Astronomer]

krelnik, this is fantastic! I'd like to link to it from my blog, but I figured I'd better warn you first. I have a decent sized audience -- not enough to slam your server -- but if it gets picked up by reddit, Digg, or slashdot, you could get hit pretty hard. Does Mindspring cap your bandwidth?

[The Bad Astronomer]

Oh-- I saw the entry you have on Sibrel. As far as followup links go, may I humbly (ha!) suggest http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/sibrel.html, or more generally http://www.google.com/search?q=sibrel&sitesearch=www.badastronomy.com

[krelnik]

krelnik, this is fantastic! I'd like to link to it from my blog, but I figured I'd better warn you first.

Can you hold off on that for a week or two? I'm gonna move it to a proper domain and make it look prettier, at that point I'll want everyone to link to it.

Thanks!

ETA:
I added that link into the db, its not up on the site yet though.

[Leicontis]

What about the elderly New Hampshire couple who refused to pay their taxes, and ended up in a months-long standoff with government agents? It turned out that they'd set up lethal booby-traps around their property, and had prepared to resist violently when arrested. Luckily, U.S. marshals managed to surprise them and make the arrest without incident, and both are now serving sentences for tax evasion, with other charges pending.

I cannot for the life of me remember their names, however, which makes finding references somewhat problematic...

Another suggestion - for each category, have multiple reference links to descriptions of the practice, including Wikipedia. Since Wikipedia tries to maintain neutrality in their articles, it should be less offputting to believers than openly skeptical sites. If it can be done without causing clutter, perhaps putting the damage totals for each category next to the category link, along with a link to a descriptive site (new window/tab) - might make it more eye-catching.

[Spektator]

What about the elderly New Hampshire couple who refused to pay their taxes, and ended up in a months-long standoff with government agents? It turned out that they'd set up lethal booby-traps around their property, and had prepared to resist violently when arrested. Luckily, U.S. marshals managed to surprise them and make the arrest without incident, and both are now serving sentences for tax evasion, with other charges pending.

I cannot for the life of me remember their names, however, which makes finding references somewhat problematic...

(snip).

Edward and Elaine Brown of Plainfiled, N.H., taken into custody on October 4, 2007.

[RichardR]

Read this Larry King transcript (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/11/acd.01.html) of an interview two former long-term Scientologists, Michael Pattinson and Tory Christman:

CHRISTMAN: In Scientology, you have to pay for just about everything. They have a few free things to try to rope people in, but basically you pay for everything. It starts very inexpensive and builds rapidly into thousands, hundreds-of-thousands of dollars.

COOPER: Michael, you say you've spent, what? How much money?

PATTINSON: Approximately half-a-million dollars.

CHRISTMAN: Well, I know -- Yes, I would say $200,000, at least, was our inheritance we spent and more.

[RSLancastr]

I have a decent sized audience -- not enough to slam your server -- but if it gets picked up by reddit, Digg, or slashdot, you could get hit pretty hard.BA, not sure if I've ever mentioned it, but I have gotten more external page requests originating from your site (1,311,307) than from any other.

If I haven't said it before - thanks!

[OldTigerCub]

There is a thread that I started in the CT forum (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=103423) (actually njslim and I started threads on the same subject at the same time that were merged) that relates to an article about a book written by Damian Thompson entitled "Counterknowledge" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=FF1QJFQXP1Q55QFIQMFCFFOAVCBQ YIV0?xml=/news/2008/01/12/nrfact112.xml&page=1) that points out the tactics used by CTers and the damage that can result from the acceptance of lies as fact, not just individually, but on entire cultures and populations.
I found it interesting because it takes aim at the Loose Change bunch, but it also cites examples of CTs in the medical and health fields that have caused harm or prevented help to entire populations:

The fingerprints of the alternative medicine lobby are all over the worst British health scare of recent years, in which thousands of parents denied their children the MMR triple vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella following the dissemination of flawed data linking it to autism. In that case, distrust of orthodox medicine increased the danger of a measles epidemic.

But that is nothing compared to the impact of medical counterknowledge in underdeveloped countries. In northern Nigeria, Islamic leaders have issued a fatwa declaring the polio vaccine to be a US conspiracy to sterilise Muslims: polio has returned to the area, and pilgrims have carried it to Mecca and Yemen. In January 2007, the parents of 24,000 children in Pakistan refused to let health workers vaccinate their children because radical mullahs had told them the same idiotic story.

These incidents cannot be dismissed as examples of medieval superstition: these people are not rejecting life-saving vaccines because they reject modern medicine, but because their leaders are spouting Islamic takes on Western conspiracy theories. Counterknowledge, with its ingrained hostility towards a political, intellectual and scientific elite, appeals to anti-American, anti-Western sentiment in the developing world.

This might be a good book to cite in any references and examples of publications you might list.

Edit: Here is a link to the book on Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/Counterknowledge-Damian-Thompson/dp/1843546752/

[RichardR]

Anti vaccination lunacy (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/01/the_real_evidence_of_harm.php).

[krelnik]

Thanks, folks, for all the tips. Keep them coming. I think I captured all of them, but I do still have a small backlog of URLs from other sources that I need to read & get into the db.

Just as an update, I'm super busy at work this week, but I'm gonna get a domain registered for this and launch it just before TAM 5.5. I'll post the URL when it is live.

A question on that: the pages all say "What's the harm", which seems like the skeptical "meme" for this sort of thing, and therefore good Google bait.

Should I just call the site "What's The Harm?" and forget the "wall" stuff?

My thought is that "wall of harm", while perhaps useful as imagery for skeptics, is not that helpful when trying to attract believers.

[krelnik]

As we move toward launch, I'm also trying to clean up some of the verbiage to make sure it is very neutral. It occurs to me that a few of my topic names don't seem very neutral:

Metal toxicity hysteria
Satanic ritual abuse hysteria
Apocalypse hysteria
Y2K hysteria

(Yes, I realize I should probably combine those last two).

It occurs to me that a believer, seeing the word "hysteria" in those, might be put off.

Can anyone think of a better way to word this? These are categories so they have to be relatively short to fit in page titles and URLs.

[CFLarsen]

Should I just call the site "What's The Harm?" and forget the "wall" stuff?

My thought is that "wall of harm", while perhaps useful as imagery for skeptics, is not that helpful when trying to attract believers.

Yeah. Keep it neutral - and then pelt'em with damning facts.

As we move toward launch, I'm also trying to clean up some of the verbiage to make sure it is very neutral. It occurs to me that a few of my topic names don't seem very neutral:

Metal toxicity hysteria
Satanic ritual abuse hysteria
Apocalypse hysteria
Y2K hysteria

(Yes, I realize I should probably combine those last two).

It occurs to me that a believer, seeing the word "hysteria" in those, might be put off.

Can anyone think of a better way to word this? These are categories so they have to be relatively short to fit in page titles and URLs.

"Scares". People don't mind being called scared, but they don't like to be called hysterics.

And yes, Y2K should be under Apocalypse. ;)

[ExMinister]

I think this is a very cool idea and you've done a great job setting it up. I think this site has the potential to do a lot of good. May I repeat the suggestion, made earlier, that the word "woo" on the main page is replaced with "believer" or some other, woo-friendlier term? This site could appeal strongly to "woo" types, too, most of who will not have heard of the term "woo," - many do try to think critically but are unaware that so much negative, objective (even if anecdotal) evidence is available. Great to have it gathered in one place like this!

[TheDoLittle]

As an avid gamer, would the hysteria surrounding roleplaying games, specifically Dungeons and Dragons, be considered?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_controversies

[krelnik]

...would the hysteria surrounding roleplaying games, specifically Dungeons and Dragons, be considered?


That's good outside-the-box thinking. I really do like including categories that are not among the traditional skeptical topics. For instance I have one for "internet misinformation". This helps drive home the point of how generically useful critical thinking is.

I read that whole Wikipedia article, though, and it seemed like all the cases where people actually got harmed (suicides and the like) were, on reflection, caused by other underlying caused and only superficially blamed on D&D. Who in there would you call a victim?

[ThatSoundAgain]

A question on that: the pages all say "What's the harm", which seems like the skeptical "meme" for this sort of thing, and therefore good Google bait.

Should I just call the site "What's The Harm?" and forget the "wall" stuff?

My thought is that "wall of harm", while perhaps useful as imagery for skeptics, is not that helpful when trying to attract believers.

As a European, I would not immediately get the wall reference. If properly presented, I could probably get the concept anyway, but I think "What's the harm" is better. Just my two (euro)cents.

Oh, and a great thing about Snopes is the thorough research and the "state lights" - true, false, undetermined. If you had the manpower to do something similar, ranging from a rating of the documentation to full articles, that would be great. That's probably wishful thinking, though.

[TheDoLittle]

That's good outside-the-box thinking. I really do like including categories that are not among the traditional skeptical topics. For instance I have one for "internet misinformation". This helps drive home the point of how generically useful critical thinking is.

I read that whole Wikipedia article, though, and it seemed like all the cases where people actually got harmed (suicides and the like) were, on reflection, caused by other underlying caused and only superficially blamed on D&D. Who in there would you call a victim?


Which is my main question. That I'm aware of there have been no deaths directly attributed to a roleplaying game and the hobby, but there have been some overblown media surrounding it.

Since you are going to TAM 5.5, you might want to talk with Stackpole. Being the media muckity-muck at GAMA, he might some better insight to some documented stories. I know for a fact he authored a paper on the Pulling story.

[Leicontis]

It suddenly occurs to me to wonder whether the Christian Scientist section is appropriate. Unlike the other medicine-compromising woo, Christian Scientists don't (AFAIK) claim that their doing nothing is more effective than doing something - they know the risks, and choose to refrain from using medicine for religious reasons. The same would apply to Jehova's Witnesses, and other religions that simply prohibit one or more forms of treatment. Generally, these people are aware of the risk, but choose to continue with their practices for spiritual reasons. I don't think that telling them something they already know is going to convince them to change/abandon their religion, and it risks alienating them before they can read about other, more insidious woo.

Pretty much every religion is, directly or indirectly, responsible for numerous deaths. Scientology is a good target, because they actually claim to have a superior treatment. They specifically oppose scientifically proven treatments in favor of their woo, to the detriment of their believers. The cultlike controlling aspects of Jehova's Witnesses are certainly fair game, but I don't see any point to harping on people making poor medical decisions for spiritual reasons. If you're going to do that, you might as well start looking into complications from circumcision, which would risk alienating much larger religious segments.

Overall, I'd go after cultlike practices and practices and beliefs that can be scientifically demonstrated to be woo - since spiritual side-effects cannot be scientifically investigated, practices that are considered a physical sacrifice for spiritual gain can't really be proven as woo.

What do other posters think about this?

[arthwollipot]

As an avid gamer, would the hysteria surrounding roleplaying games, specifically Dungeons and Dragons, be considered?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_controversiesI wouln't - there are already websites that are collating this information - specifically the CAR-PGa (http://www.car-pga.org/) and The Escapist (http://www.theescapist.com/). You'd only be duplicating their efforts.

[krelnik]

It suddenly occurs to me to wonder whether the Christian Scientist section is appropriate. Unlike the other medicine-compromising woo, Christian Scientists don't (AFAIK) claim that their doing nothing is more effective than doing something - they know the risks, and choose to refrain from using medicine for religious reasons. The same would apply to Jehova's Witnesses....

Overall, I'd go after cultlike practices and practices and beliefs that can be scientifically demonstrated to be woo - since spiritual side-effects cannot be scientifically investigated, practices that are considered a physical sacrifice for spiritual gain can't really be proven as woo.


That is an interesting point that I had not thought about.

I am very aware of the possibility of alienating religious people. While I am an agnostic/atheist myself, I feel that trying to convince people to abandon religion is (in many cases) an insurmountable problem. As a skeptic my personal choice is to avoid that battle and concentrate on more immediately winnable ones. (That's just my personal choice, and I'm not saying anyone is wrong to choose otherwise).

To play Devil's Advocate for a bit, there was a study in Pediatrics (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/101/4/625) that showed that 80% of child deaths in Christian Scientist (and similar) households are from medical conditions that are 90% curable. It seems like even a religious person might be swayed by that.

On the Jehovah's front, the thing that always stands out to me is the fact that the church formerly prohibited organ transplants, and then reversed themselves (http://www.wfial.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=artJws.article_2) in a later ruling. (Of course, what use is allowing transplants if you don't allow transfusions? Is it even possible to transplant anything other than maybe a cornea without a transfusion?) They've also reversed themselves on vaccinations. If I were a JW, I'd be wondering: when is the reversal on transfusions coming, and is it going to be soon enough to save my kid?

[Peter S.]

I found a small typo on the Quackery page in the Liam Williams-Holloway story.

Also, on this sort of web site I prefer the links to open in separate windows so I can click on them, but keep reading the page I'm on, but that may be just me.

[hmmm...]

Possibly of use...



http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=130711

Quake predictions rattle nerves in Gisborne

16/01/2008 10:24:02

A rumour of more earthquakes to come in Gisborne is sending shock waves through the community, and causing headaches for officials.

An American woman claims to have foreseen the region's 6.8 magnitude quake in December, and believes another is on its way. The psychic predicted a magnitude 8 earthquake for last Wednesday.

Gisborne District Council civil defence officer Richard Steele says when it did not happen, the dates and times started changing. He says a few people have fled in fear and the emergency phone systems have been flooded with calls.

[athon]

Krelnik,

Excellent idea. I must have missed this sticky up until now. It looks like you're doing a smashing job! If there's anything I can do at any point I'd only be too happy to assist. I'll definitely keep it in mind if I remember anything, though.

Athon

[RSLancastr]

On the Jehovah's front, the thing that always stands out to me is the fact that the church formerly prohibited organ transplants, and then reversed themselves (http://www.wfial.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=artJws.article_2) in a later ruling. (Of course, what use is allowing transplants if you don't allow transfusions?I may be wrong in this, but don't they allow transfusions of your own blood? So a person can have blood taken in the weeks leading up to the operation, which will then be used as the transfusion blood during the operation?

[Leicontis]

A couple of ideas that occurred to me today:

1) For each entry, have a set of links at the bottom to the categories that include that entry. This would more clearly show what woo is involved in each case.

2) Maybe put together graphs that show a breakdown of deaths, injuries, and money lost by category. This would admittedly be a bit difficult due to overlap, but if you could find some way to deal with that, it would be interesting to see. The biggest problem I could see with it would be that it would give the (probably mistaken) impression that the graphs were representative of damage caused by woo in general, rather than just that which you've been able to find documentation of.

3) If you do include Wikipedia links (as suggested in a previous post), perhaps they should be given a different icon, or always placed at the beginning/end of the set of information links. Given that most of your info links are from various scattered sources, it would look good to have a consistently-referenced source, even if it's as unofficial as Wikipedia. Just make sure you don't link any Wikipedia pages you've edited (at least not without warning that you've edited the page), as that would give the mistaken impression of potential dishonesty.

[Madalch]

I'd go with "What's the Harm?" When I glance at "Wall of Harm", I usually parse it as "Wall of Ham", and it makes me hungry.

[krelnik]

I may be wrong in this, but don't they allow transfusions of your own blood? So a person can have blood taken in the weeks leading up to the operation, which will then be used as the transfusion blood during the operation?

Krelnik slaps his forehead and says, "Doh!"

You're right as usual, Robert!

[krelnik]

1) For each entry, have a set of links at the bottom to the categories that include that entry. This would more clearly show what woo is involved in each case.

Yes, I definitely want to do that. It may or may not be there at "launch" but I'll get it in there soon.

The other ideas are interesting too. On the graphs, I think I'll wait until the database is quite alot bigger before going that route. Right now I know there's alot of stuff missing in there, so I'm not sure deep data analysis would reveal too much.

Not sure about highlighting the wikipedia links. There's only 29 of them (out of 414 total links -- having this in a database is handy), so I don't think its worth the extra effort.

I do have a few links that are to nominally "woo" sites, I would like to de-emphasise those at some point, or at least mark them as NOFOLLOW once I have a decent search engine presence myself.

--Tim Farley

[rats]

Brilliant, Krelnik!

Let me know if there's a bit of random research I can help you with. Although I don't have much time at the moment, being UK based and a French speaker I may come in useful.

Despite your source of inspiration, I'm glad you changed the name as the first image that popped in to my head was the Berlin wall, which probably wasn't too appropriate!

[krelnik]

As promised, I have moved the site to a more permanent and easier-to-remember URL. Please take another look here:

http://whatstheharm.net (http://whatstheharm.net)

Please give it a look and let me know if I broke anything in the move.

Thank you to kosai for the banner and new icons.

I've also rewritten the explanatory text to make it more appealing to non-skeptics. Gone are words like "woo", "skeptic" and "bogus". Now the text focuses on bad information and the power of critical thinking. Please let me know if you see anything I missed.

I changed the "critics" page to a FAQ and added a resources page to link to good material on critical thinking.

Still more changes to come, so if you made a suggestion that I haven't acted on yet, be patient.

[RSLancastr]

Thank you to kosai for the banner and new icons.

Ummmm.... I am seeing no banner. On any page.

[rats]

Hmm, I see the banner + side menu + stats summary on all the pages I clicked on.

I'm using IE7, if that's any help.

[krelnik]

Ummmm.... I am seeing no banner. On any page.

Wow, that's odd. I'm not doing anything fancy, just:


<img src="graphics/banner.jpg" width="773" height="151" alt="what's the harm?" border="0">


By any chance are you running an ad-blocker? I'm wondering if the filename "banner.jpg" is triggering it?

[RSLancastr]

Hmm, I see the banner + side menu + stats summary on all the pages I clicked on.

I'm using IE7, if that's any help.I have tried it with IE7 v7.0.5730.11 and with Firefox 2.0.0.11, and neither shows a banner. I see the menu on the left-hand side, I see the "2,427 people killed, 17,708 injured and over $89,328,989 in economic damages" accross the top, but no banner.

I am using Windows XP Home Edition, version 2002 SP2.

Here is what I see on the opening page:

[RSLancastr]

Interesting! I just disabled Norton Personal Firewall, and the banner appears.

ETA: Now I've reenabled NPF, and the banner still appears.

[krelnik]

I just changed the filename, I think that must have been it.

ETA: Yes, Google seems to indicate that Norton Personal Firewall has an ad-blocking feature, that must have been it.

[RSLancastr]

Ah. Good! Curious: what was the file name before?

By the way, note my new sig line.

And add one to yours!

Congrats on your grand opening!

[rats]

Glad that's all sorted :)

So, can we start linking to the web site now, or will you make a general announcement?

And should we bring virtual champagne to smash against the question mark icon?!

[RSLancastr]

On List of Topics page:

Typo: Superstitous ritual s/b Superstitious ritual.

Suggestion: when a topic name wraps to more than one line, indent the lines after the first.

Using Yellow text on a white background (for highlighting when moused-over) may not be so great an idea.

[Leicontis]

The new site looks great!

A thought I just had, though - it may or may not be a good idea - there are, for many topics, links to skepticism sites as the only general description of the category. While the information on such sites is probably of very high quality (a good skeptic checks their facts carefully), it could be seen as unbalanced. Adding links to websites that promote the woo in question would show the other side of the coin, and give more complete information on the topic, but risks generating new believers from credulous readers.

I notice that, in a number of cases, you have links to the same Wikipedia article next to each of several victims of the same woo. In general, unless the Wikipedia article is about the specific case, I'd personally lean towards putting the link to the article about the woo up at the top, as it would give a neutral and informative description of the woo in question. Of course, linking to points within the article for individual cases does work if that's the only source you can find (though one would expect that the Wikipedia article should have sources of its own, which might provide more information than the individual blurbs in the article).

You might want to try and come up with a different name for the "Religion" category - it gives the impression that you're attacking mainstream religion, which will alienate many readers. Perhaps "Religious Fundamentalism", "Religious Extremism", or similar. Most of the cases seem to be from fringe groups, with the balance coming primarily from fundamentalist sects. I'm also not sure whether some of the stories even belong under "Religion", since some are from the "Cults" section, it seems kinda redundant to put them under "Religion" as well.

One case, Kyle Lake, seems to have been killed by a stupid mistake (electricity + water). While he was performing a religious ceremony at the time, this was not an intended part of it, and as such is no more the fault of the religion than being killed by tripping and hitting your head on a pew. Rather than being a warning against uncritical thinking, I'd call it a warning against lack of care with electrical equipment.

Please don't take my comments the wrong way. I think that the site is wonderful, and it has the potential to help a lot of people. It's just still young, and inevitably people will disagree on exactly how stuff should be arranged, as everything gets gradually sorted out and polished up.

And please, let us know when to start promoting the site. One thing that might help would be to include a bank of common search strings related to the site's purpose (especially the topics - if someone's not sure about homeopathy, for example, and googles it, you want them to see your site), though I'd hold off on that until you're ready to start promoting the site.

ETA: I thought I should clarify that when I talk about the "Religion" section above, I mean the subcategory that's linked to, not the overall heading that contains the links for cults, Scientology, etc.

[krelnik]

So, can we start linking to the web site now, or will you make a general announcement?


Sure thing, link away! I'll sit here and cross my fingers that I bought an appropriate bandwidth package.


And should we bring virtual champagne to smash against the question mark icon?!

I plan to celebrate the launch at the TAM 5.5 Forum Party this coming Saturday.

--Tim Farley

[UnrepentantSinner]

Subbing.

[rjh01]

One idea is to go to all the woo and neutral forums and put it there and see how you go. No doubt you will be banned from some of them quickly, but at least you will have exposed a few woo people to it.

It is no good just showing us it or leaving it for woos to find. They will not look at it without it being put in their face.

[CFLarsen]

Overall: Very nice. Very nice because it's very simple.

A few points, though:

You must - must, must, must - underscore all links in the text. I am thinking specifically of the "List of Topics". You underscore links in the FAQ and Resources pages. The double-line spacing in the Resources page is how "List of Topics" should look like.

Be consistent - the hardest part of designing! ;)

The left side menu should also have double-line spacing.

You should consider using indents instead of lines in the left side menu, to more clearly indicate sub items.

When you link to outside sources, you should clearly indicate when the user leaves the site. It is clear when people click the "?" icon, but in other places, use a small icon or indicate by text. Users hate to lose track of where they are - it's the number one gripe.

When you click on the top logo, it doesn't lead to the top page. This has become the de-facto standard.

When you list the "?" icons for each case, you could consider inserting a <br> just before, so that they line up to the left always. That way, the user doesn't have to scan the line to find it.

You have to warn people in advance before they click on the "Everyone" link. Right now, it's shy of 2,500, which is bad enough, but what's going to happen when you hit the 10,000 mark (which, given the widespread wooisms out there, you will real soon!)?

If you are going to have that much info on one page, why not make it available for people as a Zip file?

Likewise, it would be a very good idea on the "List of topics" page to indicate how many cases people can expect. E.g. "Acupuncture (18,324)"

Again: Very nice.

[DeVega]

Hi Krelnik

Just wanted you to know FYI - I am on a Mac, using 'Safari' as my browser and I can see everything perfectly! (Sometimes things do display slightly differently on Safari - but your page is perfect!)

From a creative standpoint I DO very much like it when the entries have pictures - it breaks up the text and makes the point very eloquently that this is REAL people being discussed. Do you have to get permissions to use the pictures, or can you simply use them if they have been in greneral editorial use?

All best
DeVega

[krelnik]

Thanks for all the tips! With TAM 5.5 coming up and work being very busy this week, I don't have time to address them all right away, but they are all noted.

DeVega, I'm basically cheating on the photos, on the assumption that they are only thumbnails. In almost all cases, I link to the site where the original is found. (Yes, I am aware that even mighty Google has gotten their hand slapped in court over thumbnails). I'll add a feedback link soon, and make it clear somewhere that if someone from a family objects to my use of a photo, I'll remove it.

--Tim Farley

[Tamazon]

WOW!

I love, love, love your site krelnik!

I hate it when believers throw the "what's the harm" into their arguments. It makes me seethe. This is now the perfect thing to show people exactly why I am a skeptic and what we are all fighting against.

Thank-you.

[TheDoLittle]

Everyone needs to congratulate krelnik on this one!

I was sitting at the rec room at my school this morning, wolfing down a BOB (Breakfast On a Bun! It's a Whataburger thing!) hoping to get to the lab before 9:30, when 3 of the students from my department sat down on the table next to me and one of them pulled out a tarot deck. The usual teen banter went on when one of of them asked the taroist (pronounced like "terrorist") about his deck. He said he was "...going to make a fortune from being able to predict the future!". Of course, the other two made their jests and finally the "What's the harm!" phrase was thrown in the conversation.

I slammed my hand down on the table in a very dramatic way and loudly proclaimed, "WHAT'S THE HARM!?!?". The looked a little shocked but when they realized it was me, well, they know I sometimes overact in order to get a point across. I told them about all the harm that has been caused by "woo" (their new favorite phrase BTW) and pointed them to krelnik's site and Randi's blog. They spent about 10 minutes on my laptop looking at the sites expelling several "Oohs", "Ahs", and "Damn, No Ways!". He pointed out, and was correct to do so, there was no "Tarot" catagory, but I also pointed out that there is almost no division between what is considered "Fortune Telling" and "Majick".

So the taroist is keeping his cards anyway, but at least he knows when the good story should end and reality is to begin.

[Leicontis]

I thought I'd do a little to aid the cause, so I put together a draft of a convenient list of links to insert on web sites to help bump whatstheharm's search rank. Perhaps those of you with stronger google-fu than myself could check this and see what they think? I've also stuck a set of links in to help boost Operation Clambake, while I was at it.
<html>
<body>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> acupuncture </a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> alphabiotics</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> alternative medicine</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> kinesiologoy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> autism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ayurvedic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> chelation</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> chiropractic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> chiropractor</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> colloidal silver</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> argyria</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> cranio-sacral</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> detoxification</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ear candling</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ear candle</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> energy medicine</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> escharotic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> folk remedy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> herbal</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> herb</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> hiv</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> aids</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> holistic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> homeopath</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> homeopathy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> iridology</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> metal toxicity</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> naturopath</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> naturopathy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> osteopath</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> osteopathy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> homeopathic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> naturopathic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> osteopathic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> psychic surgery</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> psychic surgeon</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> quack</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> quakery</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vaccine</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vaccination</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vegetarian</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vegetarianism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vegan</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> veganism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vitamin</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> astral projection</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> curse</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> exorcism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> faith heal</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ghost</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> magick</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> psychic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> satanic ritual abuse</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vampire</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> voodoo</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> witchcraft</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> breathanarian</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> jasmuheen</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> inedia</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> christian science</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> christian scientist</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> cult</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> jehova's witness</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> religion</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> scientology</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> scientologist</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> dianetics</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> trancendental meditation</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> attachment therapy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> reactive attachment disorder</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> creationism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> repressed memory</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> apocalypse</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> conspiracy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> moon landing</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> multi-level marketing</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> pyramid scheme</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> nigerian</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> 419</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ritual</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ufo</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> y2k</a>
<a href="http://www.xenu.net"> scientology</a>
<a href="http://www.xenu.net"> scientologist</a>
<a href="http://www.xenu.net"> dianetics</a>
</body>
</html>

ETA: While it cannot be said to be a site of neutral tone, I'm surprised that you don't link Operation Clambake anywhere in the Scientology section (and btw, you might want to look at adding "attempted murder" to the Pamela Cooper entry).

[zooterkin]

Here's another; Bandō Mitsugorō VIII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band%C5%8D_Mitsugor%C5%8D_VIII) A Japanese kabuki actor who died after ordering four portions of fugu liver (one of the most poisonous parts), claiming that he could survive it.

(By a chain of coincidence, I was watching an old episode of QI, which mentioned fugu in passing, while at the same time browsing the badscience.net forum where I saw a reference to the whatstheharm.net page, and a link back here...)

[Chris Haynes]

When I was debating homeopaths I was trying to find cases where there were bad outcomes to certain things. I knew there was a case in Ireland of a woman dying from diabetes because her homeopath told her to go off her insulin, but I could not find any reference because all the homeopath sites promising to treat diabetes!

So thank you.

Your site caused a bit of indignation caused by this post:
http://organon.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/18-21-hahnemanns-organon-of-medicine/#comment-272

And it has been spread to here:
http://badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4091&start=60&sid=b9efe99d3c99f500480646bb681e45c4

[krelnik]

When I was debating homeopaths I was trying to find cases .... So thank you.

Your site caused a bit of indignation caused by this post:
http://organon.wordpress.com/2008/01/20/18-21-hahnemanns-organon-of-medicine/#comment-272


Thank you, as well! I had noticed that site in my referrer logs last night and I was quite amused to read the conversation that ensued there.

I'm in Florida at TAM 5.5 right now, and I was quite pleased to be able to tell people last night that a homeopath said, in reference to my project, "the site HCN posted is abominable". I call that a ringing endorsement.

I have a question about that blog -- is the blog itself pro- or anti- homeopathy, or neutral? I see comments on both sides, but the actual blog posts seem to just be straight quotes from Hahnemann.

--Tim Farley

[Chris Haynes]

...I have a question about that blog -- is the blog itself pro- or anti- homeopathy, or neutral? I see comments on both sides, but the actual blog posts seem to just be straight quotes from Hahnemann.

--Tim Farley

It is anit-homeopathy. You may be able to tell because none of the skeptic posts are deleted. ;)

It was started by Gimpy after one of the homoepaths accused Nash of not reading the Organon. So I posted some snippets from homeopathy.com in reply on his blog. So he started up the "Blogging the Organon" blog:
http://gimpyblog.wordpress.com/2008/01/13/blogging-the-organon/


It is also being discussed here:
http://badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4091&sid=de70e26e52ed5aacbeeaaa3f94981b7f

[bencg]

congrats on a great site krelnik :) Good enough to get me to delurk!

Have you thought of having a web-form or somesuch for users to submit entries? With the right fields you could just check over the entries and add them straight into your db.

I have pm-ed you some details/links for Dena Schlosser, (killed her eleven-month-old daughter, Margaret Schlosser, in 2004, amputating the baby's arms with a knife and offering her to God).

Keep up the good work :D

[bencg]

I found a couple more similar cases; mentally ill but religiously inspired infanticide :(

www_DOT_religionnewsblog.com/9710/moms-who-kill-children-have-religion-in-common

No doubt these mothers are severely mentally ill, but the god factor is important as it seems to have prevented treatment;

“They’re not seeing this as a mental illness. They’re seeing it as the person having demons, perhaps, or a sin problem or not being spiritually fulfilled,” said Roger Olson, a theology professor at Baylor’s Truett Seminary.

sad and scary.

[Leicontis]

So, not seeing any suggestions for changes to the googlebomb code, I'll add it to my website and encourage others to do so.

Does anyone know if the page needs to be linked to for its links to count to Google?

[tim]

I haven't had the chance to read the entire thread or the Website, but you might want to look into the removal of a load of kids from their parents from the Orkney Islands (Western Isles) of Scotland for Satanic Ritual Abuse.

[BobP]

Krelnik -
Nice design, excellent idea.
Further suggestions (- and I expect you already have about 500)
1. In what order are the records presented? I would suggest descending order of date, using the date of the most recent news item. This way topical subjects (even if old) would appear near the top - e.g. when malpractice leads to a trial, which may take a couple of years. There would also be a greater chance of a news "hit" at the top of the lists, given that news items may go offline after a few months.
2. Obviously you need a form so that people can add or update records. If you design it right, and if you have a group of trusted contributors, then you will only need to vet & approve the updates; your role will be site management and (minimal) editing.

[Chris Haynes]

Posted on Healthfraud listserv this morning by Dr. Barrett: Woman dies painfully from cancer after treatment from homeopath:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/105581

[RichardR]

This nun certainly suffered because of her beliefs (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/01/30/romania.exorcism.ap/index.html):

A former priest began a seven-year jail term Wednesday for murdering a young nun during an exorcism ritual when she was bound, chained to a cross and denied food and water for days.

[Leicontis]

New developments in the Wesley Snipes tax denial case.

Thread here. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=104912)

[arthwollipot]

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the acronym for the Wall of Harm is a Keanuesque "woh"...

[Powa]

Duuuuude!

[RichardR]

I thought I'd do a little to aid the cause, so I put together a draft of a convenient list of links to insert on web sites to help bump whatstheharm's search rank. Perhaps those of you with stronger google-fu than myself could check this and see what they think? I've also stuck a set of links in to help boost Operation Clambake, while I was at it.
<html>
<body>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> acupuncture </a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> alphabiotics</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> alternative medicine</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> kinesiologoy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> autism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ayurvedic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> chelation</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> chiropractic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> chiropractor</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> colloidal silver</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> argyria</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> cranio-sacral</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> detoxification</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ear candling</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ear candle</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> energy medicine</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> escharotic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> folk remedy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> herbal</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> herb</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> hiv</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> aids</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> holistic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> homeopath</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> homeopathy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> iridology</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> metal toxicity</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> naturopath</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> naturopathy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> osteopath</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> osteopathy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> homeopathic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> naturopathic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> osteopathic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> psychic surgery</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> psychic surgeon</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> quack</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> quakery</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vaccine</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vaccination</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vegetarian</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vegetarianism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vegan</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> veganism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vitamin</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> astral projection</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> curse</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> exorcism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> faith heal</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ghost</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> magick</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> psychic</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> satanic ritual abuse</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> vampire</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> voodoo</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> witchcraft</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> breathanarian</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> jasmuheen</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> inedia</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> christian science</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> christian scientist</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> cult</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> jehova's witness</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> religion</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> scientology</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> scientologist</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> dianetics</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> trancendental meditation</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> attachment therapy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> reactive attachment disorder</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> creationism</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> repressed memory</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> apocalypse</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> conspiracy</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> moon landing</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> multi-level marketing</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> pyramid scheme</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> nigerian</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> 419</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ritual</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> ufo</a>
<a href="http://whatstheharm.net"> y2k</a>
<a href="http://www.xenu.net"> scientology</a>
<a href="http://www.xenu.net"> scientologist</a>
<a href="http://www.xenu.net"> dianetics</a>
</body>
</html>
Won't those links all point to the site's Introduction page? Shouldn't they point to the relevant sub-page?

[RichardR]

Maybe I missed it, but shouldn't the site have an email contact (or at least a submission form) so people can submit their own harm stories? Not everyone will be registered on JREF.

Also, after a while, you could put up a page of responses from the woomeisters - you know, like Ratbags hate mail (http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/files/mailbox.htm) page.

[The_Animus]

You might want to create a backup of the pages you link to for your supporting evidence. As you said webpages and articles will continually expire and no longer be available sometime in the future. This way if it does expire, you will still have the original article in its entirety on your site.

[arthwollipot]

You might want to create a backup of the pages you link to for your supporting evidence. As you said webpages and articles will continually expire and no longer be available sometime in the future. This way if it does expire, you will still have the original article in its entirety on your site.Yeah, but check copyright provisions first. Creating backups of articles may be illegal.

[Soapy Sam]

Interesting site, Krelnik, with lots of scope for expansion- Thinking of your OP made this off topic thought pop into my head-
Do the Vietnames have an equivalent of "The Vietnam Wall"?
How many names on it?

[krelnik]

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone! I've captured all the case information you've posted and am working on updating the database today.

Some of you may have noticed that I did a site update earlier in the week, incorporating several of the general suggestions. I've updated the FAQ, added a contact page and added other improvements. For one thing, you can like directly to a case by the person's name now, like this:

http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html#les_limage

(The person links are always their names in lower case, minus any non-alphabetic characters, and with spaces replaced with underscores. When in doubt, view the HTML source and look for the <A name=""> tag).

Some of your suggestions will have to wait a bit. In particular, the various suggestions about different sorting or presentations of the data, summaries, subtotals and the like. I'm deliberately holding off on that stuff. I feel like right now I'm in "catch up" mode. I'm still finding many, many cases that are 10 or more years old. As a result, I feel like data-mining or other manipulation this data is premature. It's like trying to use a phone book that has pages ripped out.

For those who asked: the pages are sorted alphabetically by victim's name right now. However, I have deliberately rigged the sorting so that "anonymous" cases sort to the bottom of each list. I think cases with names are more compelling so I want them at the top.

I do have a search box on the site now, and it searches not only my site but also the pages I link to. So you can search cases based on details that I don't include. The search is a bit quirky right now because Google has only crawled me once, and missed a few pages. Keep googlebombing the site and that should clear up. I'm gonna tweak my search engine definition and sitemap too, which hopefully will goose the googlebot into covering me better.

Thanks again for all the help, and keep them coming!

[krelnik]

As I mentioned above, every time I whip out my Google-fu I can find more cases for the site. Many are years old, but often were never written about in the skepti-sphere. I find them buried in the oddest places, too. I found a woman who treated her cancer with homeopathy (with predictable outcome) in a theater review in the New York Times (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE6DA1338F934A35751C0A9649582 60&pagewanted=2) for petes sake!

I get the feeling that there are hundreds of these cases out there, just waiting to be found. You folks can help me with this!

Tip 1: Simply combining the name of some form of woo with the word "died" or "injured", often gets amazing results. For example, "naturopath died (http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=naturopath+died&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)". It is worth nothing that Google will return variant forms of the word without you doing anything special, so for instance a search for "homeopath" will return an article with only "homeopathic" in it if the other search terms match. (It didn't used to work this way, I'm not sure when Google added that).

Tip 2: Use the archive search on Google News. Current news stories often get alot of attention here in the forums. That makes older stories much more useful. You can search older news at Google here:

http://news.google.com/archivesearch

There are tools there to limit the year as well, another good way to avoid cases I already have.

One amusing thing about this: the New York Times has over 100 years of archives online now, so if you search on "quack" or "homeopath", you can find stories from 1895 that seem not too different from the modern ones.

Remember, however, I'm deliberately confining What's The Harm to the last 50 years (with a few exceptions for notable stories). This is because I think the idea that people believed crazy stuff in 1780 is just not that surprising to anyone. For other guidelines on what I'm looking for in cases, see http://whatstheharm.net/contact.html.

Tip 3: Please check the site to see if I already have the case! No sense wasting your time on something I already have. However, if you find a link that is better than the link I'm using on a given story, feel free to send that in.

Tip 4: Pick a category I don't have many cases in. If you don't have a favorite form of woo that you would rather concentrate on, browse the whatstheharm.net topics list (http://whatstheharm.net/index.html) and pick a topic I have under 20 cases in. (There are a bunch). This makes it easier to avoid having to scroll through stories I already have while searching.

Tip 5: If you have non-web resources available, use them. Anybody have access to Lexis/Nexis or other non-public databases? Many news web sites cycle their stories very quickly. I've had some of my links go stale just in the four months I've been doing this. But those pay databases keep everything. I'm thinking the same search techniques that I mention above might work well there. If you can limit to older stories only, so much the better.


Finally, please start sending all CASE STORIES to this address:

SUBMIT (at) WHATSTHEHARM (dot) NET

I can manage the workload better using the email as a queue. One case per email with the victim's name in the subject line makes that even easier, but I'll take anything you send me!

Thanks again for all the help.

[krelnik]

It occurs to me that the "quackery" category I have is not that useful from the stand point of appealing to believers. What believer would ever click on it? Who ever thinks they are going to a quack?

I'm thinking about combining those cases under another sort of catch-all category I have which is "Alternative medicine". I use that one for woo-ish medical cases that don't obviously fit into one of the more precise categories like "homeopathy". (Though sometimes I double-tag cases that have multiple modalities, one vague and one specific).

Thoughts?

[Father Dagon]

Psychics that leads police out on wild goose chases?

[BobP]

Hi Krelnik,

I just got this thrown in my face on the Hpathy forums:

Here's another issue you have to factor in--is a person with leukemia close to death because of all the inappropriate and toxic radiation and chemotherapeutic agents he has ingested? You cannot separate the two, because you can't show me a leukemia patient anywhere who is not burdened with this treatment.

So maybe there's a need for another category - Doing Nothing ??

[Phaycops]

I like the site -- I even blogged about it (ok, ok, only after Bad Astronomer blogged it, but still, I did MEAN to!). I think the descriptions of the cases could be a little bit longer. I'd be more than happy to devote a couple weekends to helping you out. Drop me a PM if you'd like -- though I understand that getting the site operational first is probably more your priority.

[krelnik]

The super-short summaries was originally a limitation of the cheesy cobbled-together database I'm using to generate the site. But actually I think it is a good thing to keep them as short as possible. There's always the supporting links to go to for additional details.

That having been said, if there's a specific story that you think isn't coming across well in my summary, feel free to suggest a better summary! I'm not overly attached to my own verbiage.

Another great way you can help out right now is to follow the tips I posted in response #123 above (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3417860&postcount=123), and find more stories to add to the site. They're pretty easy to find, the hardest part is avoiding duplication of stories I already have.

[Phaycops]

The super-short summaries was originally a limitation of the cheesy cobbled-together database I'm using to generate the site. But actually I think it is a good thing to keep them as short as possible. There's always the supporting links to go to for additional details.


The thing I think some people are worried about is that if you point someone to the site and say "yeah, THERE'S the harm," they might be put off or exasperated by the aggressively short descriptions, and certainly aren't going to be in a mindset to be following links and doing their own research. I mean, that's why we're pointing them to the site in the first place, right? Because they are misinformed? In any event, I think you're right -- getting the actual number of cases logged ought to be your first priority, then you can worry about prettyin' up the site :D. I'll do some google-fu this weekend if I have time!

ETA: PS -- if anyone has access to the Lexis-Nexis database, that would be an EXCELLENT source for news stories.

[Phaycops]

PS -- a couple friends I pointed towards the site didn't realize that the little "?" dealys are links to additional info. Just FYI!

[krelnik]

PS -- a couple friends I pointed towards the site didn't realize that the little "?" dealys are links to additional info. Just FYI!

Yeah, I've gotten some emails in the last few days where it eventually became clear to me that the person never followed the links. One person even asked me where my supporting information was.

I need to do something with those icons to make it more obvious. I don't want to have the full title of the link because I think it will draw attention away from the stories. Hmmm, maybe something short like this:

Peter Sellers (actor)
Age: 54
Dorchester, England
Died (untreated heart condition)
July 24, 1980

A heart attack in 1964 had permanently damaged his heart. His doctors were advising bypass surgery, but he delayed it and instead saw psychic surgeons twice a year. He died of a massive heart attack. Discovery Channel (http://www.exn.ca/stories/2000/08/21/55.asp) Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Sellers)

[arthwollipot]

That would work for me. I took a while to catch on too. I thought I was just being slow on the uptake.

[arthwollipot]

You've just hit the bigtime, krelnik. Someone's just linked to your site (http://community.livejournal.com/skepticaldebate/30312.html) in the Skepticaldebate community (http://community.livejournal.com/skepticaldebate/) of LiveJournal. I don't know if the poster is a contributor here or not.

[krelnik]

Just a little bump here to note that I put a bunch of updates on the site this weekend. There are several new categories including "alternative dentistry" and "reparative therapy".

Here are my two favorite recently added stories:

http://whatstheharm.net/herbalremedies.html#sedef_olcer
http://whatstheharm.net/conspiracytheories.html#richard_mccaslin

The latter one came from another thread here on JREF after I mentioned the site.

As always, there's still more work to do, including the design-related fixes such as changing the icons. And I still want to provide a way to jump to related categories from within a story.

Keep those new cases coming to submit (at) whatstheharm (dot) net, and thanks again to everyone. You've all been invaluable help.

[Powa]

I think it would be great if you could add links to Wikipedia for the cause of death.

Something like this:

Died (water intoxication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication))

Or you could add an icon (similar to what you have for links to news stories) with a link to Wikipedia.

It would make it easier for people to educate themselves.

[krelnik]

That's a good idea. I've got some "structural" changes to the site (changing the way things link and stuff) coming, I'll put that on the list.

[Leicontis]

Discussing whatstheharm on another forum I frequent yielded the suggestion of the West Memphis Three (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_Three) under Satanic Ritual Abuse Hysteria. Two men serving life, one on death row.

[jli]

Hi Krelnik. I couldn´t find the contact links on your site, so I´ll just give my correction sugestion here. In the section on colloidal silver you present a link to Rosemary Jacobs website. The link leads to her old site, which contains a link to her new site. Being a man of few posts I´m not (yet) allowed to post the link to her new site, but if you follow the present link on your site you can easily get the correct web address.

[tim]

Hi Krelnik. I couldn´t find the contact links on your site, so I´ll just give my correction sugestion here. In the section on colloidal silver you present a link to Rosemary Jacobs website. The link leads to her old site, which contains a link to her new site. Being a man of few posts I´m not (yet) allowed to post the link to her new site, but if you follow the present link on your site you can easily get the correct web address.


Is this the one you mean?
http://rosemaryjacobs.com/

[jli]

[QUOTE=tim;3454426]Is this the one you mean?
QUOTE]

Yes exactly. But as I wrote there is a link on the old site, that will take you there. So it´s not that big a problem.

[krelnik]

Oh cool, thanks! I didn't realize Rosemary had a new site. I'll fix it my next batch of updates.

[CFLarsen]

Five children die in Bihar after eating holy offerings (http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-32088720080222)

[PrincessIneffabelle]

Do you want incidents involving religious activity, too? If so, we recently had a tragic event here in Dayton.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/search/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/02/17/ddn021708pedestrianweb.html

[Graham2001]

You might be interested in this story from New Zealand. Last year a self-proclaimed 'New Age Healer' was sued by two of his former patients after he tricked them into having sex with him. Both patients had come to him to get over sex abuse related trauma. The sad part about this is that the guy had allegedly been in operation for ten years prior to this.

Date format is (DD/MM/YY), oldest story first. All are from the New Zealand Herald. Unfortunately due to legal reasons the victims cannot be named.

The Geoffrey Mogridge Saga

The search for insight on healer (04/06/06)
http://tinyurl.com/2tp6ef

The 'Healer' who had sex with abused women (04/06/06)
http://tinyurl.com/2kov3b

Counsellor had sex with female clients(04/06/06)
http://tinyurl.com/2v8pj6

Therapist labelled sexual predator (12/12/06)
http://tinyurl.com/3bl34h

Therapist a 'sexual predator', says health commissioner (12/12/06)
http://tinyurl.com/2qzp9b

Client says she was duped into sex (30/12/07)
http://tinyurl.com/3clrfd

Healer facing sex allegation allowed to question patients' claims (31/12/07)
http://tinyurl.com/3cz63h

Healer told to pay up after sex with clients (26/12/07)
http://tinyurl.com/37fdz3

[arthwollipot]

After the shoutout on SGU, there has been an interesting discussion of this site on the Atheism community of LiveJournal (http://community.livejournal.com/atheism/1635149.html).

Just thought you'd like to know what people are saying. :)

[Blue Wode]

The details of some chiropractic victims can be found here:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3476371#post3476371

[hecaterin]

Why are the GPS items in there? They seem more like general stupidity, possibly leading to Darwin awards. A GPS isn't based on pseudo-science, nor is it a woo device. It's more like a high-tech map.

[krelnik]

Why are the GPS items in there? They seem more like general stupidity, possibly leading to Darwin awards. A GPS isn't based on pseudo-science, nor is it a woo device. It's more like a high-tech map.

Well, as I noted in the site introduction (http://whatstheharm.net/whatisthis.html), the overarching theme of the site is misinformation and critical thinking. Misinformation is the one thing that all forms of "woo" have in common, and critical thinking is the common tool to combat them.

So I deliberately decided to put in some non-woo topics to show how some misinformation is less obvious than others. I don't think vegetarianism (http://whatstheharm.net/vegetarianismveganism.html) is woo either, but I think you can get into trouble if you take it too far (such as choosing a vegetarian diet for a small baby).

You might want to read my answer to FAQ question #7 (http://whatstheharm.net/faq.html#7), which is closely related.

[steenkh]

I also think the non-woo stuff looks odd. Critical thinking is not a synonym for "use your brain", although it is related. If you want to list all those cases where people have been hurt because they trusted products or manuals, you will have your work cut out (even more).

Products like GPS recievers will of course lead to accidents if they have errors. Without errors, GPS receivers work, and are an advantage. Wooism never works, and when at best, nothing happens. There is a world of difference.

[krelnik]

I also think the non-woo stuff looks odd. Critical thinking is not a synonym for "use your brain", although it is related.

Remember that the site is targeted both at skeptics and believers. So I can't really use "woo" as the dividing line, because that is meaningless to a believer. (Heck, some skeptics have trouble with the term).

Point about thinking taken. While some of the cases of GPS misuse seem like blatant stupidity, there are more subtle cases. For instance, when someone is sent down a long road that gradually narrows and becomes unsafe. Theres a point there where you have to use some thinking skills beyond the level of "don't drive into a river" and realize, this road really doesn't look like its going to get me to my destination.

I thought about drawing the line on intent of the proponent of the information. Clearly the GPS vendors are NOT intentionally sending people into rivers or crash them into bridges. When these things are pointed out to them, they fix the maps.

However, many proponents of woo are honestly self-deluded about the validity of their stuff. Many (most?) homeopaths honestly believe that their magic water actually works. So intent is not a good dividing line at all.

I'm open to switching to a dividing line that would eliminate the GPS category. But help me find a clear articulation of it. "Only woo" is not it. "Requires more than just common sense" is not it. Neither of those have a real clear definition.

Suggestions?

[Chris Haynes]

...
However, many proponents of woo are honestly self-deluded about the validity of their stuff. Many (most?) homeopaths honestly believe that their magic water actually works. So intent is not a good dividing line at all.

...

Homeopaths and their fans get very upset when I post your page on homeopathy. They usually excuse the problem by saying the homeopath was not competent, and they never have an answer about the baby girl who died from sepsis from untreated eczema whose father was a homeopath.

[RichardR]

Remember that the site is targeted both at skeptics and believers. So I can't really use "woo" as the dividing line, because that is meaningless to a believer. (Heck, some skeptics have trouble with the term).
Surely the difference is that GPS is a product that has been shown scientifically to work? "Woo" just means stuff that is anti-science or pseudoscience. If you're going to include all misuse of genuine science, or cases where science has been wrong and caused harm, you're going to have to include all cases of medical malpractice, all cases where scientifically proven drugs have done harm... etc etc.

But help me find a clear articulation of it. "Only woo" is not it. "Requires more than just common sense" is not it. Neither of those have a real clear definition.

Suggestions?
Only things not scientifically verified and/or plausible.

[Leicontis]

Surely the difference is that GPS is a product that has been shown scientifically to work? "Woo" just means stuff that is anti-science or pseudoscience. If you're going to include all misuse of genuine science, or cases where science has been wrong and caused harm, you're going to have to include all cases of medical malpractice, all cases where scientifically proven drugs have done harm... etc etc.


Only things not scientifically verified and/or plausible.
It's not the concept of onboard GPS navigation systems that is being targeted with the category - it's people blindly following the navigation system's instructions and not actually checking that they make sense. To blindly accept information when you can be (and are supposed to be, when driving) checking whether it's right is a failure to apply critical thinking.

He's not warning people "Person X drove off a cliff when using a GPS unit, so you shouldn't use GPS", he's warning them that "Person X drove off a cliff when using a GPS unit, so you should make sure your GPS isn't telling you to drive off a cliff."

[steenkh]

He's not warning people "Person X drove off a cliff when using a GPS unit, so you shouldn't use GPS", he's warning them that "Person X drove off a cliff when using a GPS unit, so you should make sure your GPS isn't telling you to drive off a cliff."
And this distinction is completely clear to the visitors of the site?

[RichardR]

He's not warning people "Person X drove off a cliff when using a GPS unit, so you shouldn't use GPS", he's warning them that "Person X drove off a cliff when using a GPS unit, so you should make sure your GPS isn't telling you to drive off a cliff."And how would you do that?

[Leicontis]

By occasionally looking at the road instead of the GPS screen? If I look ahead of me and see a cliff, and my GPS unit tells me to keep going straight, I'm going to apply some critical thinking and decide that the GPS unit is in error. The same goes for trying to drive across a flooded road, turning into a building, and the various other mistakes people have made because they trusted their GPS more than they trusted their eyes.

[CFLarsen]

It's not the concept of onboard GPS navigation systems that is being targeted with the category - it's people blindly following the navigation system's instructions and not actually checking that they make sense. To blindly accept information when you can be (and are supposed to be, when driving) checking whether it's right is a failure to apply critical thinking.

He's not warning people "Person X drove off a cliff when using a GPS unit, so you shouldn't use GPS", he's warning them that "Person X drove off a cliff when using a GPS unit, so you should make sure your GPS isn't telling you to drive off a cliff."

But that goes for all products. It would be a consumer warning site instead. Or something akin to the Darwin Awards.

[hecaterin]

Thanks for the FAQ point, I'd missed that. I don't agree, though. Of course, you are right that just blindly accepting what you are told is a problem. But the crucial thing for me is that the woo side is out actively peddling disinformation. The GPS people (and the moderates in vegetarian & home birth advocacy) are not.

The GPS stories remind me of that one about the guy who put the cruise control in his RV, and then got up out of the drivers seat to go back and make a sandwich. Material for Snopes or Darwin Awards, not so much a lesson for the rest of us. The idea is to answer when people ask "Where's the harm?" in silly beliefs, right? But we all already know there's harm in being an idiot. If you're seriously going to document all harm from Failure to Use Brain, then your site is going to get huge and unfocussed.

[BobP]

Hi Krelnik, sorry to keep bothering you. This time I'm having a run-in with some anti-vaccination weirdos on the JABS forum, and it would be cool to have some handy links to news items about the consequences of not being vaccinated.
Keep up the good work!

[krelnik]

I do have a page on vaccine denial here: http://www.whatstheharm.net/vaccinedenial.html

Admittedly, I could use some more cases there, just haven't had time to dig them up.

[Polaris]

Deleted.

[Dr Adequate]

There's some stuff here (http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=2193&m=1) --- see the OP and molbiogirl's post (message 12).

A person is not guilty of an offense under this section solely because he or she provides a child with treatment by spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with the religious method of healing … in lieu of medical or surgical treatment.

Yes, folks, in Wisconsin you can let your children die of neglect, so long as you think that's God's will.

[EyeOn]

Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies (http://my.att.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=7401&eeid=5780217&_sitecat=1522&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt)

Just posting this on here for anyone who'd like to look further into it to verify the story. If this story is on the up and up, then it may be quite fitting to include in the "Wall of Harm".

[Jon.]

Here's a good one I don't think you have yet.

Surinder Kaur Sidhu trusted a guru called Amar Singh to cure her breast cancer, and did not seek medical help in time. She also gave him land worth over $1M. Predictably enough, she died of the breast cancer, and there was a big court fight over the land. The judgment, which gave the land back to her family, is here (http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/sc/02/09/2002bcsc0969.htm).

[Dr Adequate]

Anti-vaxers and measles --- story here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jun/16/health.healthandwellbeing).

[RSLancastr]

Heffalumps and woozles --- story here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLnADKgurvc).

[krelnik]

Sorry I haven't updated in this thread lately, I've been busy with my day job and behind-the-scenes updates to the site.

This morning I rolled out the first in a set of updates that should make the site more useful as a day-to-day tool for skeptics. The notable updates today include:

An RSS Feed. You can now get a regular update of new cases posted on Whats The Harm in your favorite news reading tool. Just use this link (http://feeds.feedburner.com/WhatsTheHarm) to subscribe, or click the RSS icon you'll see on the site. The feed always contains the 100 most recent cases added to the site.

Geographic data. I've started coding each case with latitude and longitude so the data can be mapped. Soon I'll have map links on the category pages, but for now you can map the new cases via the RSS feed. For instance, here's the feed displayed in Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=http:%2F%2Ffeeds.feedburner.com%2FWhatsTheHarm&ie=UTF8&ll=31.653381,5.976563&spn=147.434111,360&z=2).

Let me know if you see any problems with the new features, and be please be patient while I catch up with the case backlog.

Thanks for all your support and assistance!

[arthwollipot]

Yay for RSS!

It appears that Australia/New Zealand are woo-free. Yay for us!

[WhatWouldZeusDo]

You'll probably be adding this one to the site at some point.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080512.wcancer12/BNStory/National/home

"The boy, who has aboriginal ancestry, did one round of chemotherapy in February and then decided to stop aggressive treatments in favour of natural remedies, including chelation therapy, vitamins, oregano and green tea."

[krelnik]

Yay for RSS!

It appears that Australia/New Zealand are woo-free. Yay for us!

I'm concerned you may have uncovered a bug, because there are several cases in the feed right now. Here's how it looks on my screen zoomed in:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_145644828da996f3ea.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=12182)

Are you not seeing something similar?

[arthwollipot]

Nope, I can see that now. Must have been only a temporary thing.

[Leicontis]

One case a friend of mine's been talking about is Kaja Ballo, the daughter of a Norwegian MP who committed suicide after getting a bad result on the Scientology personality/stress test. Unfortunately, I don't speak Norse, nor do I know where to find a good English-language source. Everything that comes up for me is blogs, YouTube, etc.. Perhaps someone with better Google-fu than I could find something?

[krelnik]

Another update to the site this week.

Maps! Each page has a little mini-map on the left side showing a summary of where those cases occurred. Red icons indicate deaths, blue indicate injuries. Somewhat interesting to see a very rough idea of where each category of pseudoscience and so on is prevalent around the world. Here's the one for homeopathy:

http://whatstheharm.net/maps/homeopathy.gif (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=http://whatstheharm.net/maps/homeopathy.kml)

Google Maps. If you click those mini-maps, Google Maps will open with the same data displayed in clickable form. Go ahead, try it on the sample above! From this map page you will also have a link to open the same data in Google Earth if you like (upper right). In both Maps and Earth you can click the icons to see the person's name and story, and click the link in the balloon to navigate back to the full info on the site.

Links. All off-site links now open in their own window. This is an experiment to see if I can get people to linger on the site longer. I've also gotten rid of the little round icons for links, it was clear to me from my email that many people did not understand that those led to the background story for each person.

Still ahead:

I haven't yet created the "one map to rule them all", a KML that links to all the other data, so you can see the entire Whats The Harm dataset on a world map. I suspect that said map would not load in Google Maps successfully due to the volume of data, but might be useful in Google Earth. If you really, really want to see this remind me and I'll get on it. (Though keep in mind I'm very busy preparing my presentation for TAM 6).

There are still a few older cases that have not been geocoded, I am aware of this and will make a pass through the data this weekend to clean that up.

[Tamazon]

That is very cool. :D

[krelnik]

I continually add new categories as relevant cases are found, but I haven't been calling much attention to them so far. Here are some categories that were added recently:

Alternative dentistry ("holistic" or "biological" dentists)
http://whatstheharm.net/alternativedentistry.html

Astrology
http://whatstheharm.net/astrology.html (http://whatstheharm.net/astrology.html)

Expert witnesses (pseudoscience in the courtroom)
http://whatstheharm.net/expertwitnesses.html (http://whatstheharm.net/expertwitnesses.html)

Home childbirth
http://whatstheharm.net/homechildbirth.html

Hypnosis (mostly wrongful convictions based on hypnotized witnesses)
http://whatstheharm.net/hypnosis.html

Reparative therapy (trying to "cure" gay people)
http://whatstheharm.net/reparativetherapy.html

I have several other categories waiting in the wings for a decent number of cases. I dislike putting new categories up with only one case in them if I can avoid it. If you have any ideas of cases for these, please chime in:


Numerology
Fear of electromagnetic fields
Healing touch (reiki and so on)Remember, they've got to be in the last 50 years and show a real, concrete harm.

Thanks again for all the support!

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I'd have a more than a few stories of my own from The Files of StopSylviaBrowne to add to the section about psychics. However, I don't know how interested you'd be, enspecially since there's a dearth of publicly available information.

On a short list of Sylvia's accomplishments, she's:

1. Once- and very possibly twice- accused a innocent man of murder, resulting in a lawsuit against Montel Williams and his show.
2. Possibly told a dying boy in advanced stages of multiple sclerosis that he'd live a long time when, in fact, he died less than a year later. She gave him and his family false hope, needlessly dragged him and his family from Hawaii to NYC and, seeing how this was part of an arrangement with the Make a Wish Foundation, quite possibly wasted precious funds.
3. Told an Iraq war widow who artificially conceived after her husband's death that she'd have a healthy child and a few months later, the poor woman had a prematurely born baby who died the day it was born. And then was shamelessly used by Montel William's show to showcase Sylvia's accuracy!
4. Took credit for finding a missing body in a classic "post-diction", retrofitting and shaping her original prediction and flat out lying, taking credit away from the police and volunteers and shamelessly exploiting a tragedy.
5. Contributed to the re-opening of a cold case that had, in fact, been declared solved. Distress to the victims' family, public funds wasted.

[arthwollipot]

WhatsTheHarm was mentioned on the Skepticality Podcast (http://www.skepticality.com/index.php) this week by the SkepDoc, Dr. Harriet Hall, yesterday. Good interview, too. Listen here (http://media.libsyn.com/media/skepticality/079_skepticality.mp3).

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

6. Briefly switched from victimizing the families of murder victims to victimize the families of two perpetrators/ alleged perpetrators on two separate occassions, by telling them their convicted killer sons were innocent, that there would be new evidence and that they'd get a favorable outcome on appeal. Neither did, and as far as I can tell, both.

To me, this is as despicable as victimizing the families of murder victims and missing people. We forget that the innocent families of perpetrators or accused perperators suffer very much, too, and that this is giving the same sort of false hope and false promises to them. If a person is indeed wrongly convicted, the last thing he needs is Sylvia Browne's lies and if he isn't, the last thing his family needs is to wrongly believe that he's been innocently convicted.

If you ask me, one of them was rightly convicted and the other was wrongly convicted and I think that it's a tragedy that Sylvia interfered in either one.

7. Told two victims of an unsolved rape who had come to her to find out their attacker's identity to stop the efforts to bring a rapist to justice, since he was "already dead". May I mention that they were 17 and 19 at the time and had been kidnapped, assaulted, tortured and raped and barely got out alive.

[Blue Wode]

Sandy Nette’s story, which has just hit the Canadian press, is definitely one for the Wall of Harm:

‘Look what you did to me’ (7 mins 57 secs)
Minutes after visiting an Edmonton, Alberta chiropractor for a routine neck adjustment on September 13th 2007, Sandy Nette suffered a paralyzing stroke. From her hospital bed she answers questions about her experience using a speech synthesising touch pad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHX7m09OZ8E&feature=PlayList&p=F324082BDDF8E50C&index=3


More details:

Paralyzed woman sues chiropractic for half billion
http://www.rabble.ca:80/news_full_story.shtml?x=72421

Complete Statement of Claim - Sandra Nette v. Gregory John Stiles et al.
http://chirowatch.com/Chiro-lawsuits/Stiles/lawsuit080612stiles.pdf

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I did some searching on Lexis Nexis and sent 6 stories on various topic to the webmaster of WTH.net.

Here's one I'd like to share with all of you:


January 8, 2000, Saturday
Psychic scam started with a love letter

BYLINE: By Marisa Taylor

SECTION: DOMESTIC NEWS

LENGTH: 1223 words



FORT WORTH, Texas _ "I love you Kenneth," the letter read. Franklin Gross, an 83-year-old from Liberty, Ind., received the letter four years ago from a Texas woman who called herself Carol Baker. "Baker" said she was a psychic and could help Gross win back an estranged girlfriend.
"Baker," whose real name is Nancy Ruthy Tan, began demanding cash, credit cards and money orders from Gross, a widower since 1993. By the time his family started questioning the sincerity of Tan's love and mystical advice, Gross had given her more than $40,000.


"She told him it took a lot of money to make her happy," said Franklin Bridenhager, an attorney for the Gross family. "He was so depressed and lonely that he believed her."

Gross is one of at least 22 victims from across the country who were cheated out of more than $300,000 by seven Texas residents claiming to be psychics, Assistant U.S. Attorney Fred Schattman said. Such scams flourish across the country, but these cases are unusual because all of the defendants were members of two Fort Worth- Dallas families.

After a four-year investigation, five women and two men have been convicted in separate cases involving psychic fraud. Six have been sentenced.

Tan, of North Richland Hills, pleaded guilty in October to one count of mail fraud. Also suspected of conning 12 other people in addition to Gross, she faces up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $250,000.
She may also be subject to up to three years of supervised release after her prison term expires, Schattman said.

Also convicted and sentenced are:

_Spero Peter Evans, 32, who listed addresses in Fort Worth and San Antonio. He was sentenced in April to three years' probation and a $2,000 fine for mail fraud and aiding and abetting.

_Tina Evans, 29, who listed addresses in Dallas and Colleyville. She was sentenced in December 1998 to one year and two months in prison for mail fraud.

_Janet Mary Mitchell, 28, who lived in Hurst. She was sentenced in January to three years' probation and $2,902 in restitution for mail fraud.
_Angie Mitchell, 33, who listed addresses in Arlington, North Richland Hills, Euless, Bedford and Dallas. She was sentenced in October to nine months in prison for wire fraud.

_Dino Patrick McGill of Dallas, who was sentenced in December to eight months in prison for mail fraud.

_Tammy Sue Mitchell, 37, of Dallas and Irving. She was ordered in August to pay $58,937 in restitution to five people after pleading guilty to mail fraud.

The schemes usually unfolded like this: Victims responded to ads placed in tabloid newspapers by people offering to solve problems. The ads snared people from across the country, including Mansfield, Ohio; Fargo, N.D.; and Covington, Ky.

Several of the victims were elderly, ill or experiencing financial problems. One woman had recently discovered that her husband had cancer when she called for psychic advice, federal officials said.

In the local cases, the psychics placed ads promising to rekindle failed love affairs, cure illnesses, solve money woes and chase away evil spirits with special prayers and spiritual powers.

The seven people convicted are members of the Rom community, commonly known as Gypsies. One of the accused, Tammy Sue Mitchell, cited her heritage as a defense.

"Many women in the Gypsy culture are trained as palm readers and psychics when they are children," said Mitchell's attorney, Mike Heiskell of Fort Worth. "They're told early on this is their livelihood."

Mitchell's part in the scam included placing an ad in a magazine using the pseudonym Gloria Higgins, court papers say.

"Solves all problems, love marriage, health, business," her advertisement read. "Tired of lonely days/nights? Miracles are waiting for you."
Fortune-telling is a centuries-old tradition that is practiced legally by many Rom in the United States, said George Kaslov director of the Lawyers' Committee for Roma Rights and Recognition in New York.
Estimates vary, Kaslov said, but about 1 million gypsies reportedly live in the United States.

"You can't stereotype 99 percent of the Rom community just because of the 1 percent who might commit a crime," he said.

Schattman, the federal prosecutor, said people who believe in and contact psychics may not report a scam to authorities. In Gross' case, the family's attorney contacted the FBI in April 1997 because of concerns expressed about Tan. The FBI learned that Tan was a 43-year-old married woman who used the pseudonym Carol Baker and described herself as single and lonely.

"When something like this happens to a family member, you wonder who you can trust," said a relative of Gross'.

In some of the scams, victims were reassured that their money would benefit a church or religious organization, Schattman said.
Mitchell, for example, said she was a nun and told her victims that she would cleanse their cash of evil spirits, court papers say. She told them to mail cash to her and she promised to return it.

One Midwestern woman, who asked to remain anonymous, said Mitchell first asked for and returned about $400, claiming that she had cleansed it. About a week later, Mitchell asked for $20,000, which the woman sent, but it was never returned, she said.

"I've always trusted religious people," the woman said.

Mitchell told another woman that she had a vision that her parents would be in a terrible car accident, according to court documents. To lift the evil curse that supposedly hung over the family, the woman was told to send $12,205 in cash so it could be cleansed of evil.

Later, Mitchell also demanded a Presidential Rolex watch.
In 1997, the woman went to the FBI, triggering an investigation that led to Mitchell's arrest in 1998.

Federal officials described the psychics as brilliant con artists, but defense attorneys argued for mercy. Several of the defendants had mental illnesses and never completed high school, officials said.
One defendant, Tina Evans, a 29-year-old Arlington woman, said that her traditionally authoritarian husband, Dino Patrick McGill, forced her to pose as a psychic, court papers indicate. But prosecutors painted a harsh portrait of Evans as capable of convincing a 79-year-old woman to hand over thousands of dollars for a mystical cleansing.

In December 1998, a federal judge sentenced Evans to a year and two months in prison for mail fraud, lower than the maximum punishment of up to five years in prison and a $250,000 fine. A year later, McGill, who has since separated from Evans, was sentenced to eight months in prison for mail fraud.

Mitchell received no prison time but was ordered to pay the restitution.
But Heiskell said he doubts that his client can repay the debt because illness prevents her from working. If she cannot work, the government will need to determine whether she has other assets that can be tapped to fulfill the restitution, Heiskell said.
The woman who lost $20,000 doubts that her money will ever be returned.
"I was fooled," the woman said."I knew better when I was doing it, but she was very persuasive."

http://www.lexisnexis.com.proxy.wexler.hunter.cuny.edu/us/lnacademic/results/docview/docview.do?docLinkInd=true&risb=21_T3961587293&format=GNBFI&sort=RELEVANCE&startDocNo=76&resultsUrlKey=29_T3961587299&cisb=22_T3961587298&treeMax=true&treeWidth=0&csi=138794&docNo=79

[Jon_Stripe]

Great idea. I wouldn't quite call myself a "skeptic" but I try to look at things with an open mind. In other words, I try to examine both sides of the arguement to find my own conclusion.

Anyway, great idea. Although I'm not sure how much I can help but I support you.

[arthwollipot]

I was about to post to the RichardDawkins.net article on Neil Beagley (http://richarddawkins.net/article,2742,n,n), but it suddenly occurred to me to check whether it was actually on the site. It is. Essentially the same article, in fact.

[Clairvoyant_Kyle]

Hey krelnik,
I love the work you have done. I decided the work of my next video was going to focus around the harmfulness of psychics. I just came across your site and much like www.stopsylviabrown.com your site has done a ton of research for me. This time I am thinking of doing something way different than my rip off of Anonymous. So I got two questions. One: do you care if I rip a hug amount of my research out of your site. Two: if you don’t care I use it would you like to be credited in my video?

-Kyle

[krelnik]

much like www.stopsylviabrown.com (http://www.stopsylviabrown.com) your site has done a ton of research for me. This time I am thinking of doing something way different than my rip off of Anonymous. So I got two questions. One: do you care if I rip a hug amount of my research out of your site.

That is absolutely one of the intended purposes of the site. Rip away!


Two: if you don’t care I use it would you like to be credited in my video?


Sure, if you can stick the URL in the credits I would much appreciate it. Thanks!

[Clairvoyant_Kyle]

Alright, thanks! It maybe a while before I get this video done because I need to plan and make the whole thing by myself. When I am done I will be sure to put a link on the board for you to check out.

-Kyle

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Krelnik- I have the perfect story for you about Satanic ritual abuse (and perhaps witchcraft). As a matter of fact, I can't believe that you haven't included it already.

I'm sure just about everyone here has heard of the West Memphis 3? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_3

Long story short, three young boys were murdered, molested and terribly mutilated. Due to the mutilations- I believe one boy was castrated- Satanic ritual abuse was deemed the culprit.

Three teenagers were arrested, tried and convicted, mainly, it seems, for the crime of wearing black, listening to heavy metal, dabbling in "witchcraft" and being maladjusted misfits. The enormous miscarriage of justice on the part of the police played a huge part but the boys were convicted, it seems, solely because of the fear of Satanic ritual abuse. I believe a "expert" on Satanic rituals who had gotten his degree by mail testified at trial, among many other mockeries of justice.

The result being that two of the boys are currently serving life sentences and the third is on death row in Arkansas.

[krelnik]

Yes, actually the West Memphis 3 are sitting in my to-do queue right now. I'm trying to figure out how to write it up properly. For technical and other reasons, the stories have to be VERY short, and the fact that they haven't yet been exonerated is hard to dance around.

Suggestions on how to word this are welcome.

[this charming man]

Krel,
Provide links to the WM3 stories; allow others to make an informed decision. State the facts, and provide information.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

My suggestion:

"Due to a combination of local hysteria of Satanism and gross misconduct on the part of police, three boys were most likely wrongly accused of murder and child molestation. While all three are still currently in prison, there was no forensic evidence to link them to the scene of the crime and the police's investigation and the proecution's case were, at best, extremely suspect. It should be noted that the arrests were made solely on the testimony of a mentally handicapped boy with a IQ in the double digits, interogated for hours without his parents or a lawyer present. Harm: man wrongly sentenced to death and jailed for nearly a decade, two other men serving life sentences, the rightful murderer never arrested or convicted, countless tax payer dollars wasted and several families torn apart."

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Krelnik- I have a great one for you about repressed memory therapy. Have you ever heard of Arnold and Jesse Friedman? Or maybe of the movie Capturing the Friedmans?

Long story short, a father and son on Long Island in the 1980s as well as a friend of the son's were (most likely) wrongly accused of dozens of instances of pedophilia based on the testimonies of about a dozen children put through hypnosis and "repressed memory therapy". The father was sentenced to life in prison and commited suicide there while the son served 13 years in prison.

As with the West Memphis 3, there were many other culprits besides pseudoscience (hysterical parents, a botched police investigation, unbelievable misconduct on the part of the police, overzealous prosecutors, terrible defense lawyers who gave the defendants very bad legal advice, a media that just about convicted the alleged child molesters.)

The fact remains, however, that the therapists (and the police, who in one known instance intimidated a child into incriminating the suspects by removing his parents from the room and accusing him of being gay!) are to blame for almost all of the counts of molestation, sodomy and rape that the Friedmans were charged with. Tragic, tragic, tragic.

Edit: By the way, there was no forensic or medical evidence of the alleged molestations. None. No boys showing physical symptoms of abuse, no sperm or blood found at the scene of the alleged crimes, no photographs of the boys being abused. Just trumped up charges, manufactured memories and coerced confessions.

Friedman actually was an admitted pedophile who did rape several strange children in his lifetime and his collection of pornography was discovered but the evidence shows he and his son never touched the children under his care. How sad and how tragic- to go unpunished for your actual crimes and be punished for the false ones.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

...

On the Jehovah's front, the thing that always stands out to me is the fact that the church formerly prohibited organ transplants, and then reversed themselves (http://www.wfial.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=artJws.article_2) in a later ruling. (Of course, what use is allowing transplants if you don't allow transfusions? Is it even possible to transplant anything other than maybe a cornea without a transfusion?) They've also reversed themselves on vaccinations. If I were a JW, I'd be wondering: when is the reversal on transfusions coming, and is it going to be soon enough to save my kid?

Actually, there is something known as a autologous transfusion, which means donating blood to yourself ahead of time for a planned surgery. It is consistent with the JW's befiefs and is commonly used among JWs (as well as for patients who choose it for medical and/or practical reasons.)

Of course, it's of no help at all in an emergency...

So, krelnik, have you decided to use any of the articles I sent you? I haven't noticed anything new up recently.

Also, if you have anything you'd like me to specifically look for, feel free to ask me.

Edit: didn't realize the question had already been answered!

[krelnik]

Yes, I am using all of the articles you sent me. You're right, I haven't posted any updates lately because I've been recovering from TAM6, getting caught up at my day job and the like. I will update soon and many of your submissions will be in there.

Thanks much!

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Yes, I am using all of the articles you sent me. You're right, I haven't posted any updates lately because I've been recovering from TAM6, getting caught up at my day job and the like. I will update soon and many of your submissions will be in there.

Thanks much!

You're welcome! Glad to help with a good cause.

For what it's worth, I think you should also put the West Memphis 3 case in under "expert witnesses" because of the "expert witness" on Satanic ritual abuse that testified at their trial. And if you include Jesse and Arnold Friedman, it should be both under both "repressed memory therapy" and "hypnosis".

This is a little off-topic but I'm surprised at the coverage these things get in the media. Searching for stories about psychic surgery, it seems that almost all of the articles are neutral or favorable. John of God, for example, gets very few unfavorable or critical articles when he's covered at all in the press. And even those don't happen to be of any help to what you're doing.

The same with psychic detectives- it varies but I'd say that most are either neutral or supportive.

The only woos that seem to really get it are the ones who are on the very fringes even in woo.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I just had a bright idea.

Your wall for conspiracy theories doesn't have anything included relating to JFK nonsense. Since it was less than 50 years ago, what about listing that one guy brought to trial by that lunatic DA (falsely accused), the state of Louisiana (expenses of an investigation and trial) the American federal government and the American taxpayers (money and time wasted investigating a non-conspiracy) and Lyndon Johnson (falsely accused), various other figures (falsely accused) and the American movie-going public (having another Oliver Stone film foisted on us)? :D

And, since you mention one Holocaust conspiracy theorist who lost his job for making his views known, how about other people who've been arrested, sued, lost their jobs, been banned from entering certain countries, been assaulted or otherwise sanctioned for this belief?

What about David Irving and other people who've been arrested in countries in which denial is a crime? I can't bring myself to feel sorry for them but it's a fair point that they've been hurt by their own actions.

Edit: And, as for the victims of conspiracy theorists, both Penn & Teller and Bill Maher have been harrassed by wackjobs after mocking them on their respective shows. Penn has stated that they and their crew have actually received threats from these lunatics.

Edit 2: Come to think of it...I'm not sure how honest it would be to blame the Oklahoma City bombing on a conspiracy theory but Timothy McVeigh and his conspirators certainly were conspiracy theorists and certainly were motivated by a fanatical hatred and fear of the allegedly all-evil, allegedly all-powerful government.

Edit 3: If you want to go into the Princess Diana conspiracy theory, I'd mention the British authorities who spent precious time and money investigating her death as the losers. Not that I'm not glad that they did everything they could to set the record straight- but a three-year investigation to determine that a tragic accident was a tragic accident, all because some people just don't have common sense? And every believer on Earth dealt with it by...just ignoring it!

And the father of her boyfriend, who's still spending his time and money trying to prove that there was a conspiracy.

[krelnik]

Hey, Eeney, thanks again for all the great news stories you've been emailing me. I've been going through them this morning and there are some real jewel stories in there. (Also some stories that I already have, but fill in some details I couldn't find). Much appreciated.

I just had a bright idea.

Your wall for conspiracy theories doesn't have anything included relating to JFK nonsense. Since it was less than 50 years ago, what about listing that one guy brought to trial by that lunatic DA (falsely accused), the state of Louisiana (expenses of an investigation and trial) the American federal government and the American taxpayers (money and time wasted investigating a non-conspiracy) and Lyndon Johnson (falsely accused), various other figures (falsely accused) and the American movie-going public (having another Oliver Stone film foisted on us)? :D

Any of those that actually went to court, yes those would fit.

I try to avoid alot of "money wasted" claims unless there is someone who sued about it, because they seem too vague to me. Likewise false accusations unless they result in an actual lawsuit. I'm trying to stick with harm that is very clear-cut when you read it.

For instance, the JFK assassination and Diana's death did have to be investigated. So one could argue any money spent on those investigations was going to happen anyway, no matter what crazy allegations get made in the process. Even if you argue that it made the investigation longer or more costly, how do you put a price on that?

Another good example is psychics. I'd never list a person who spent thousands on a psychic but doesn't regret it, because that person could easily argue that they viewed it as entertainment. Who am I to judge how they spend their entertainment money? (Heck, some would argue I personally spend too much money on CDs and DVDs).

Remember, the site is not just aimed at skeptics. The hope is that some "believers" or "potential believers" will read it and possibly be dissuaded from continuing in their irrational belief. So the stories need to be really compelling and clear cut, or people will tend to latch on to a weak story and use it to discount the entire site.

(This is not to say I don't have any weak stories on their now. Please, anyone feel free to point them out. As the database is growing, I can afford to lose a few stories here or there at this point, if it strengthens the overall message).


And, since you mention one Holocaust conspiracy theorist who lost his job for making his views known, how about other people who've been arrested, sued, lost their jobs, been banned from entering certain countries, been assaulted or otherwise sanctioned for this belief?

What about David Irving...

Yes, that's a good point. I need to get David Irving, Ernst Zündel, Fredrick Toben, Robert Faurisson and others who have been jailed for writing holocaust denial stuff into there.

Thanks for reminding me of that!


Edit: And, as for the victims of conspiracy theorists, both Penn & Teller and Bill Maher have been harrassed by wackjobs after mocking them on their respective shows. Penn has stated that they and their crew have actually received threats from these lunatics.


Again "threats", while incredibly disquieting to the target, are not really compelling as stories on the site. One might imagine that celebrities get threats all the time over the dumbest things. It also dances very close to the concept of a "hate crime" which I have deliberately excluded from the site simply because they happen so often.


Edit 2: Come to think of it...I'm not sure how honest it would be to blame the Oklahoma City bombing on a conspiracy theory but Timothy McVeigh and his conspirators certainly were conspiracy theorists and certainly were motivated by a fanatical hatred and fear of the allegedly all-evil, allegedly all-powerful government.

Yes, you have a point. There might be something usable there. The whole militia movement in the US was driven by this a sort of paranoid conspiracy-theory thinking about the aims and methods of the US Government. I may have to pick up a book on that and see what I can mine out of it.

Again, thanks for all the great input! You're definitely keeping me busy....:D

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

You're very welcome. :) I'm glad to be to lend my research skills to someone who could use them.

Well, it's not my site but I actually appreciate it that you include a wide variety of stories of very differing magnitudes. I actually think that it's more enlightening, more illuminating and does alot to strenghten your case.

When I tell a relative or a friend about, let's say, a lunatic judge who consults alleged criminals' horoscopes or someone who was murdered because of a belief in curses, they are likely to say "You're just cherrypicking the marginal and extreme cases. That doesn't happen every day and you're making it sound as though it is."

To me highlighting money wasted, law enforcement time wasted, investigations that yielded nothing, needless trips, false accusations made that thankfully didn't lead to arrests or lawsuits, threats, harrassment, cons that cost their victims small amounts of money, charges that got quickly dropped, things like an insurance company having to pay for someone's acupuncture a few times and other minor harm is pointing out harms that are not so obvious but should be considered.

The message to me is "You might not think it's the end of the world but it does cost you in ways you might not even have thought of".

I don't think any of your stories are weak; I actually think that the more and more there are, the more compelling the overall picture is.

Oh yeah, I've been giving you alot of work lately. :D Awful sorry about that! :D

[krelnik]

A few notable site updates recently, along with a bunch of new cases:

Two new categories: dowsing (http://whatstheharm.net/dowsing.html) and numerology (http://whatstheharm.net/numerology.html). (Thanks much to EeneyMinnieMoe for supplying the cases that enabled these).

I've changed the "kids" meta-category to "children". Nobody complained about it to me, but I was reminded that the word "kids" bugs some people. "Children" is also probably more easily understood if English is your second language.

A few minor cosmetic tweaks here and there such as additional white space in the navigation bar (thanks Jutta) and dropping some lame category links.

Oh and a couple new cases I'd like to point out because of their sheer weirdness:

Lee Muk-yui (http://whatstheharm.net/numerology.html#lee_mukyiu_2_others) who was working in the Bank of China and decided to "swap out" bills that had lucky serial numbers, using two accomplices in branch banks. Note: he did not steal the money, he simply swapped the lucky bills for other ones that weren't as lucky. And yet, the Honk Kong authorities gave him 7 months in prison!

The strange tale of Christine Jessop (http://whatstheharm.net/dowsing.html#Christine_Jessop), a missing child in Canada who later turned up dead. Early on, dowsers and psychics got consulted by the cops first, while credible eyewitnesses waited weeks to be called. Finally, they arrested Guy Paul Morin (http://whatstheharm.net/expertwitnesses.html#Guy_Paul_Morin) and railroaded him using flimsy pseudoscientific fiber and hair evidence, only to have his conviction overturned by DNA evidence later. This case just has misinformation oozing out the seams, and is a tragedy all around.

Thanks to everyone who keeps sending me cases, especially Eeney who is probably going to keep me busy until the end of the year singlehandledly. ;)

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Excellent!

My pleasure, Tim. And I think I have to thank you. :) As a researcher dependent on someone else to publish your information, there's nothing more gratifying than to actually have someone give your findings a forum. And to see the fruit of your work available to the public where it ca(hopefully) do some good. As a matter of fact, the best way to thank me is to put everything up as soon as possible. :)

By the way, I'm sorry about swamping your email. :D Incidentally, if you were keeping track, how many Word/ PDF pages did I send you? :blush:

I'm sure it couldn't have been more than 1,500. :D

Edit: That's true about the weirdness. Being a skeptic kind of makes you an expert on All Things Weird! and Some Very, Very Strange People (not that all paranormal is "strange" or all woos are "weird"- some are actually very accepted and very mainstream and believed by otherwise perfectly normal people) but even now, there are things that stop me in my tracks and make me go "What...in...heaven's...name?!"

Like the story of "Mrs. A"- it stood out even to me for the sheer weirdness.

[arthwollipot]

Like the story of "Mrs. A"- it stood out even to me for the sheer weirdness.Link?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Here you go:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23431534-details/How+'wacky'+dentist+told+patient:+'Your+dead+mum+i s+here+with+us'/article.do

Just when you thought you've heard it all! :eye-poppi

When I heard that I was torn between laughter, shock and being totally creeped out. Kinda gaped at the screen for a few moments, shaking my head.

Edit: And while we are on the subject of stories that could shock even long-time skeptics, I was stunned and appalled at the story of Christine Jessop. Having investigated over a hundred of Sylvia Browne's murder/missing persons' cases, I know firsthand the enormous damage that psychic detectives can do but even I've never heard of something like this.

Maybe I'm naive and think too well of the police and law enforcement but I can hardly believe that police could be so negligent and so stupid. If it wasn't in legitimate news sources and official documents, I would have had trouble believing this story myself.

If anyone ever asks you what's the worst thing that could happen with a psychic detective, please do me a favor and point them to this.

[arthwollipot]

Here you go:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23431534-details/How+'wacky'+dentist+told+patient:+'Your+dead+mum+i s+here+with+us'/article.do (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23431534-details/How+%27wacky%27+dentist+told+patient:+%27Your+dead +mum+is+here+with+us%27/article.do)

Just when you thought you've heard it all! :eye-poppi

When I heard that I was torn between laughter, shock and being totally creeped out. Kinda gaped at the screen for a few moments, shaking my head.Yeah. Um, yeah. Thanks.

[Graham2001]

Another 'ding-dong' using SatNav, how the driver missed going over the English Channel I just can't figure out...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/22/satnav_blunder/

[krelnik]

Those of you who hang out in the JREF chatroom may have heard that I was interviewed by ABC News on last Friday. Well Google just informed me that the article is up...

Victimized by Astrology and...Veganism? (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=5420631)
Web Site Warns of the Dangers Associated With Odd, and Not so Odd, Beliefs (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=5420631)
By TUAN NGUYEN
July 22, 2008


Tim Farley's interest in skepticism, which seeks to expose dubious claims, started when he began listening to comedian and outspoken doubter Penn Jillette's radio show. It was through the show that he heard about the skeptic community, became involved through meetings and decided to find a way to contribute.

So in February, the software engineer from Atlanta started compiling news reports of those victimized by psychics, faith healing and other new age beliefs and posting them on his Web site.

"A lot of stories I see of people getting harmed by these various types of belief systems often appear and disappear very quickly," Farley says. "So I was hoping to capture some of this and create a resource for skeptics to point to when they make their arguments."

The site he created, Whatstheharm.net, serves as a virtual warehouse of cautionary tales.


It's unfortunate that he chose to focus so much on the vegetarianism page, which I've found to be a bit of a lightning rod of controversy. Most people don't notice that its almost entirely about babies and toddlers, who have unique nutritional needs.

Nice quote from Shermer though.


"I think it's excellent," Michael Shermer, president of The Skeptics Society, says of the site.

[AliasN]

Those of you who hang out in the JREF chatroom may have heard that I was interviewed by ABC News on last Friday. Well Google just informed me that the article is up...

Victimized by Astrology and...Veganism? (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=5420631)
Web Site Warns of the Dangers Associated With Odd, and Not so Odd, Beliefs (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=5420631)
By TUAN NGUYEN
July 22, 2008

Awesome, krelnik! Well done, you!

Have you thought about adding a "Media" page to your site? You could list articles such as this one (as well as any others that spring up as well), any white papers that you write, as well as perhaps a standard press release that the media might use for future stories. Just a thought!

Congrats again.

[sillyhead]

This is an awesome site! I wonder if there has been anyone who has tried to figure out just how much Johnny Gosch's mom has spent, how many have exploited her, etc. She's clearly been driven quite mad by people who've manipulated her in one form or another over the years.

Also, maybe Kelly would let you link to some of the stories she has about victims' families who've been exploited by psychics?

[krelnik]

Oh thanks for reminding me of that, I've been meaning to add some of Kelly's "Jason Project" stories to the site, just haven't done the research yet.

[Mr. Skinny]

This looks like a good candidate: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=122210

[Georg]

Another Jehovas witness story here (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,576145,00.html) and here. (http://www.hr-online.de/website/rubriken/nachrichten/indexhessen34938.jsp?rubrik=36090&key=standard_document_35137814)
Sorry that it´s only in German, but I did not find an English language article on that case.

Short summary:
A young woman, pregnant, refusing blood transfer and dying in hospital July this year. She did not want the blood, and the wacko husband supported her decision since he is also a member of the club. The unborn would have died anyway, so you can´t blame that on her. In another article I have read that she leaves another child (six years old) behind though. Sad.

While I do like your site a lot, I do not follow this line of reasoning:


So I deliberately decided to put in some non-woo topics to show how some misinformation is less obvious than others. I don't think vegetarianism (http://whatstheharm.net/vegetarianismveganism.html) is woo either, but I think you can get into trouble if you take it too far (such as choosing a vegetarian diet for a small baby).

You might want to read my answer to FAQ question #7 (http://whatstheharm.net/faq.html#7), which is closely related.


If vegetarianism itself is not the reason for the harm caused, it should not be the headline in my opinion. That does give the impression that you are biased against it, be it true or not. Maybe "faith based nutrition" or something else would suit better?
Otherwise you could add "cars" to the topics as well. They are not woo, but people die if they "take it too far"......
What about "drinking water"? Of course not woo, but people have died because of drinking too much in too short a time etc., or, in other words, you could add about anything to your site, which does not make sense to me.
After a short glance on the veg. cases I did not see one where vegetarianism itself was the cause of the harm. Veganism seems to be a different story....

Disclaimer: I´m a meat eater, so I do not have an agenda here. My daughter, who lives with the mother, is raised vegetarian though, and I do not have a problem with that, since the mother does about everything to ensure that my daughter gets all the nutrients she needs.

Please do not feel attacked, it is meant as a well-intentioned critique.
More people like you or RSL are needed that do not only talk, but are actually willing to do the work.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I disagree. Not eating meat and dairy products can be dangerous, even lethal, for both children and adults.

Vegetarianism can be religious, such as in Eastern religions, or cultural. It can also resemble a ideology and like all ideologies, may or may not lead to real trouble.

It can also be irrational, which is what the site seeks to combat.

[Graham2001]

Another victim of Doomsday Woo.

A teenage girl in central India killed herself after being traumatised by media reports that a "Big Bang" experiment in Europe could bring about the end of the world, her father said.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=629454

[Georg]

I disagree.


You are entitled to do so :).


Not eating meat and dairy products can be dangerous, even lethal, for both children and adults.


That sentence is true, but does not really contradict my point. As far as I´m informed, vegetarianism just means: no meat, no fish. Eating no meat, eggs and dairy products is a very special form of vegetarianism, namely veganism. This is what I said regarding that point:

I did not see one where vegetarianism itself was the cause of the harm. Veganism seems to be a different story....


Most vegetarians would be ovo-lacto vegetarians (no meat, but eggs and dairy products), and absolutely no harm arises from that. Of course there could be harm if the diet is not balanced, but that´s the same as with a diet containing meat (fast food anyone?), which means, the harm is not caused by vegetarianism itself.
Not eating meat is not harmful. Feel free to look for contradicting evidence.


Vegetarianism can be religious, such as in Eastern religions, or cultural.


Yes. So?
Not drinking alcohol can be religiously motivated. Not killing anyone can be religiously or culturally motivated.
What´s your point?



It can also resemble a ideology and like all ideologies, may or may not lead to real trouble.


Then the ideology that causes harm should be attacked. Vegetarianism itself is not harmful. To say so despite contradicting evidence makes an impression of bias, which should be avoided.

It can also be irrational, which is what the site seeks to combat.


Maybe you did not read my post completely. I did not say it would be better to not raise the point at all. I said I would change the headline for this section. Absolutely nothing wrong with highlighting cases where lack of critical thinking regarding nutrition causes harm, but they should be presented in a "fair" manner and not raise the impression that they are there to push another ideology: Not eating meat is bad.
I do not think this is what krelnik is out for, but I see the possibility that it gives that impression.

[Chris Haynes]

....Maybe you did not read my post completely. I did not say it would be better to not raise the point at all. I said I would change the headline for this section. Absolutely nothing wrong with highlighting cases where lack of critical thinking regarding nutrition causes harm, but they should be presented in a "fair" manner and not raise the impression that they are there to push another ideology: Not eating meat is bad.
I do not think this is what krelnik is out for, but I see the possibility that it gives that impression.

If you should listen to krelnik (Tim Farley) being interviewed here:
http://www.skepticality.com/sn_Ep84.html ... He mentions that he will change that section, possibly to something that has to do with child nutrition.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Not eating meat is not harmful. Feel free to look for contradicting evidence.

...

Yes. So?
Not drinking alcohol can be religiously motivated. Not killing anyone can be religiously or culturally motivated.
What´s your point?

...

Then the ideology that causes harm should be attacked. Vegetarianism itself is not harmful. To say so despite contradicting evidence makes an impression of bias, which should be avoided.



I think of vegetarianism a little like I think of fireworks: most of the time, it's harmless and it's ok for children if it's done safely but it sometimes gets way out of hand or a simple mistake is made and a real tragedy results.

I've lent Mr. Farley a hand with locating news stories since I have access to databases he doesn't and even I'm surprised at the number of stories I have found about vegetarianism gone very wrong. There are dozens of stories of children being starved, malnourished, injured, removed from their parents, etc. - even the occasional story of an adult hurting themselves. I'd have thought that these stories would be sad but rare but it's convinced me that it's an issue worth pointing out.

Granted, most of them are to be blamed on extremism and fanaticism (and most involve veganism, fruitarianism or raw food diets) but sometimes you have to fault vegetarianism itself. Changing your diet, setting an improper diet or experimenting with unknown foods can lead to a disaster.

I can think of several hypothetical situations of religious vegetarianism leading to harm. Such as Hindu law punishing a non-vegetarian person for killing a cow or a family in a poor country struggling to feed themselves but refusing to eat meat to survive, even though they should.

Here's one sad case where religious vegetarianism is a least partially to blame:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/02/28/exchange_student_says_he_was_denied_adequate_food/

[Georg]

I think of vegetarianism a little like I think of fireworks: most of the time, it's harmless and it's ok for children if it's done safely but it sometimes gets way out of hand or a simple mistake is made and a real tragedy results.


I think of nutrition a little like I think of fireworks: most of the time, it´s ok for children if it's done safely but it sometimes gets way out of hand or a simple mistake is made and a real tragedy results.


I've lent Mr. Farley a hand with locating news stories since I have access to databases he doesn't and even I'm surprised at the number of stories I have found about vegetarianism nutrition gone very wrong.


Corrected it for you.

There are dozens of stories of children being starved, malnourished, injured, removed from their parents, etc. - even the occasional story of an adult hurting themselves. I'd have thought that these stories would be sad but rare but it's convinced me that it's an issue worth pointing out.


No disagreement here, see my former posts.

Granted, most of them are to be blamed on extremism and fanaticism (and most involve veganism, fruitarianism or raw food diets) but sometimes you have to fault vegetarianism itself. Changing your diet, setting an improper diet or experimenting with unknown foods can lead to a disaster.


No disagreement except for the bolded part. Since not eating meat and fish (and that is the definition of vegetarianism) itself does not cause harm, I´d like to know how that is even theoretically possible.

I can think of several hypothetical situations of religious vegetarianism leading to harm. Such as Hindu law punishing a non-vegetarian person for killing a cow


Then the religion is to blame, not the vegetarianism. See the difference?


or a family in a poor country struggling to feed themselves but refusing to eat meat to survive, even though they should.


Poor families seldom eat meat because it is more expensive than veggies etc.
I´d actually like to see the cases of poor families that do not have enough vegetarian stuff to eat but would have enough meat to compensate. Got any?

Here's one sad case where religious vegetarianism is a least partially to blame:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/02/28/exchange_student_says_he_was_denied_adequate_food/


From your link:

Rather, he said, it reflected mean and stingy treatment by his host family and a language barrier that made it difficult to communicate.

when the family observed a fast limiting the amount of animal protein he was given.



So it´s a mixture of bad character and religious nuttery that is to blame.
Animal protein does not equal meat and fish. The vegetarianism did not cause the harm.

If you should listen to krelnik (Tim Farley) being interviewed here:
http://www.skepticality.com/sn_Ep84.html ... He mentions that he will change that section, possibly to something that has to do with child nutrition.


Thanks for the link, can´t listen to it now, since I post from work, but will do later at home. Your statement indicates that krelnik, whom, to mention it once more, I have a lot of respect for, is willing to accept and examine criticism. Great! Go, krelnik!

[krelnik]

Yes, I've already made the change to the vegetarian page (http://whatstheharm.net/childvegetarianism.html) that I mentioned in that interview. The very first sentence on the page is now:


There is no harm in a properly balanced vegetarian diet.



Experience has shown that I will still get complaints from vegetarians, however. I'm getting used to it. The other day some random dude (not a vegetarian as far as I can tell) accused me of being intolerant. This was the gist of his email:


I think the more important question here, which your site and skeptics in general tend to ignore, is: What is the harm to YOU PERSONALLY? Of course misinformation is causing harm to people all the time, either to themselves or their children, but if belief in ooky-spooky religions or psychic powers or practice in weird rituals etc. doesn't personally harm YOU, I don't see what gives you the right to become a holy crusader against all that is wrong with the world. Stupidity abounds, but it really is not your problem. What you are practicing here is just another brand of intolerance.



My friends, family, and teachers will tell you I'm exceedingly rational in my decisions and debates. So basically I'm not just some religious nut writing in to complain at you because you have a different opinion from me. I just happen to feel that no one has any business interfering in the lives of others in any way, regardless of how they feel about what others believe or how they act.

If it does not affect your life personally, or if it affects you to a degree roughly equivalent to how you affect them, then I don't see why you can't just leave people to live whatever lives they want to.



I don't even know how to reply to that.

[xinit]

I don't even know how to reply to that.

"Stupidity abounds, but it really is not your problem."

The thing is that it IS your problem, Tim. It's my problem, it's everyone's problem.

If the foolishness and stupidity is doing such wonderful PR in the anti-vaccination movement for example, and causes enough kids to go un-vaccinated, we're going to have problems. If the homeopathy movement starts to get money directed away from real science in favour of quack treatments, then we all suffer. If Scientology remains unchecked, we'll see more Tom Cruise and Will Smith on TV and in the movies, and that's unthinkable.

Maybe it's not your problem if some crazy vegan tries to feed their kid soy milk, but the issue is larger than any one story.

[rwp]

I just happen to feel that no one has any business interfering in the lives of others in any way, regardless of how they feel about what others believe or how they act.

So then why bother to interfere in the life of krelnik and his site? ;)

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Poor families seldom eat meat because it is more expensive than veggies etc.
I´d actually like to see the cases of poor families that do not have enough vegetarian stuff to eat but would have enough meat to compensate. Got any?


As a matter of fact, I can think of one pretty good example.

The famous black American leader and activist Malcolm X was raised by a Seventh Day Adventist widowed mother who practised vegetarianism and banned him and his six siblings from eating certain types of meat and enspecially pork, even though they were living on the brink of starvation.

I believe she even prevented her sons from hunting on their own or accepting food from friends and neighbors, even as they had no income, were living off of welfare in 1930s Michigan and had a baby and several very small children at home.

Sadly, corrupt social workers looking for an excuse to separate the children latched onto the fact that she wouldn't eat certain types of meat even under dire circumstances as proof of insanity and placed the children in foster homes.

[Georg]

Have you got a source for me? And comments to the rest I wrote, or ist that accepted and done?

[Georg]

So then why bother to interfere in the life of krelnik and his site? ;)


Good catch and also a good point for a possible reply in my opinion.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Have you got a source for me? And comments to the rest I wrote, or ist that accepted and done?

It was described by Mr. X himself in The Autobiography of Malcolm X. Excellent and amazing book.

To me, it's an instance of someone insisting on vegetarianism despite not being able to afford to do it, financially and physically.

Done- the PETA people aside, I really don't have anything against vegetarianism (allthough it's not a lifestyle I'd choose for myself or any children under my care.) I personally think that eating meat is as natural as anything else (the only food product I think is too cruel to eat is veal) but I certainly wouldn't tell anyone how to live their life, anymore than I'd like them telling me how to live mine.

But you're aware that Coptic Christians actually do observe a meat-free and practically vegan diet for roughly 200 days of the year?

[Baby Nemesis]

... The Purpose of this Thread:
•*DO: Help me find more cases to add. ...

I love your website. ... Well, apart from a couple of small issues, but you've said you don't want them mentioned here, and you've said you're aware of similar things anyway, so I won't mention them. :)

I was reading the curse stories you linked to a few days ago. Things are worse than I thought! Here's another curse story you might be interested in, not about something as serious as some of those stories, but about someone being cynically defrauded out of lots and lots of money and eventually harassed for it by a con-woman who offered psychic services:

Psychic Scams (http://www.rickross.com/reference/general/general542.html)
... Mrs. Sonia pulled out the death card, and proceeded to inform Lisa that someone in her family was very ill and was going to die. The news struck a chord with Lisa because her sister was diagnosed with leukemia and was undergoing chemotherapy treatments; moreover, her 17-year-old cousin had died recently.

"I was like, 'Omigod.' I was shocked," recalls Lisa. "She then told me that I had a lot of darkness in my life caused by a curse."

Gauging the concern rising in Lisa, Mrs. Sonia knew that she had found an opening into Lisa. Mrs. Sonia told Lisa if she returned for more readings and healings, she could help her sister. ...

The link's been there for ages, so hopefully it won't be one of those that'll expire soon.

[Graham2001]

Another case of a 'Healer' exploiting his clients(see also: Here (http://tinyurl.com/6d6yjk)). Seems to crossover with the whole 'there's a curse on you/your money' thing as well.

Two Sydney men have been charged with more than 220 sex offences against a young woman during 'prayer sessions' to remove curses.


The young woman has told police she went to numerous 'prayer sessions' at various hotels between 2001 and 2005 where she was blindfolded and sexually assaulted


Police say the victim believed she and her family had been cursed and they would suffer consequences, including death and illness, if the curse was not removed.


It is alleged she paid the men up to $70,000 over four years for the sessions.


1. (ABC): http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/12/2362840.htm

2. (Sydney Morning Herald): http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/church-prayer-curse-sex/2008/09/12/1220857793041.html

3. (Daily Telegraph): http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24337351-5006009,00.html?from=public_rss

[Georg]

It was described by Mr. X himself in The Autobiography of Malcolm X. Excellent and amazing book.

Thank you. One more for my ever growing "to read" list.

To me, it's an instance of someone insisting on vegetarianism despite not being able to afford to do it, financially and physically.

Did they have meat available cheaper/easier than vegetarian food?

Done- the PETA people aside, I really don't have anything against vegetarianism

Same here.

(allthough it's not a lifestyle I'd choose for myself or any children under my care.) I personally think that eating meat is as natural as anything else (the only food product I think is too cruel to eat is veal)

I principally agree, but have ethical problems as well with animals raised under very bad (not enough space etc.) conditions.


But you're aware that Coptic Christians actually do observe a meat-free and practically vegan diet for roughly 200 days of the year?


The point being?

[Baby Nemesis]

I'm reminded of a much nastier curse story about girls from Nigeria being forced and scared into prostitution now, having a Voodoo curse put on them and told that if they run away, they'll be killed because the curse will take effect:

'If you break your promise lightning will kill you' (http://www.heart7.net/news/0,2763,1008647,00.html)

... "They cut us and told us it would be a secret. They made us swear that if we start working we would have to pay the money back," she said.

"It was scary because of the statues and the blood everywhere. They gave us something to wash your body, and some leaves. I believed that I was going to die if I told anybody. If you swear and you don't keep your promise, the thunder will come and you will be hit by lightning and you will die. I have seen it happen and I thought that that would happen to me. They kept some of my body stuff, my hair and nails, and it is still with them so I am still frightened of them."

On her way to the airport, Charity was surprised to see her picture in a passport with the name Elizabeth on it. With the other voodoo girls, she was heading for London's Gatwick airport. They had a photograph of a man who would meet them at the airport. He would be wearing a suit, black and white shoes and have scars on his face.

Upon arrival at Gatwick, the girls were told to go to the toilet and destroy their passports, then they would go to the counter and claim asylum, telling the officers that they had come from Sierra Leone. Eventually, they would hook back up with the black and white shoes, get a new passport and head for Italy, where - though they did not know this - they would be forced into prostitution. ...

[Baby Nemesis]

Another case of a 'Healer' exploiting his clients(see also: Here (http://tinyurl.com/6d6yjk)). Seems to crossover with the whole 'there's a curse on you/your money' thing as well.



1. (ABC): http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/12/2362840.htm

2. (Sydney Morning Herald): http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/church-prayer-curse-sex/2008/09/12/1220857793041.html

3. (Daily Telegraph): http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24337351-5006009,00.html?from=public_rss

Horrible story!

Your first link's broken though.

[Graham2001]

Horrible story!

Your first link's broken though.

Damn right, hope they rot in hell.

I just clicked on it and it worked fine. Here it is again in another format.

Sex assault victim 'paid men to lift curses'. (ABC) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/12/2362840.htm)

[Baby Nemesis]

Thanks; but I meant your tinyurl link.

[Coveredinbeeees]

Score 13 mode dead due to witchcraft. :mad:

KINSHASA, Congo (AP) -- Accusations that a soccer player was using witchcraft during a match in eastern Congo sparked a riot that killed 13 people, a U.N.-funded radio station reported Monday.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/soccer/09/15/bc.soc.congo.riot.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

[Graham2001]

Thanks; but I meant your tinyurl link.

I was trying to link to post #144 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3463033&postcount=144) of this thread where I linked to a series of articles from New Zealand involving a similar incident where women were sexually victimized by a self proclaimed 'psychic healer'.

[WhatWouldZeusDo]

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_26852.aspx

A badly malnourished 9-month-old boy had to be pried from the arms of family members, police allege, following a two-hour hospital standoff on Sunday that ended with obstruction charges against the baby's mother, father, and godmother.

The boy, who weighs just 11 pounds....

"This is a divine group of beings, indigenous, Morrish American, natural beings. That's who we are, right? So we have the right to do what we want with our offspring," the boy's father argued.

"As an indigenous way of life, we have certain religious right to take care of our children how we seem suitable for them."

[Graham2001]

What Dan Brown hath wort...

ROME (Reuters) - A 25-year-old man who tried to kill a priest by stabbing him in a Rome church has told police that he did so after the watching the film "The Da Vinci Code" and believing himself to be the anti-Christ.http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5038514

[Lusikka]

Krelnik, I think that this is a very worthy project.

After a quick look, a few comments:

1. Audience: I think you should write it for a wider audience, not just for skeptics. In fact, I think that if you write it with "believers" and the families/friends of believers in mind as your audience, the site could be more beneficial, and still be of great use to skeptics as well. One way to do this would be to eliminate the use of the word "woo," and replace it with a less inflammatory term or phrase.

- - -

These are some initial thoughts. Again, I think it is a worthy project, and a wonderful idea. Congrats on following through with it!

This was the first time I have read something what R S Lancaster has written. I also visited his StopSylviaBrowne-homepage. Skepticism at its best in my opinion - well balanced, careful and informative with details.

I also agree with his opinion of the "Wall of Harm" -project. Remains still to go and see the current stage of the project.

[Graham2001]

More deaths due to the belief in 'ritual cures'.

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia — Relatives beat a Malaysian couple to death in a ritual apparently meant to help the man to stop smoking, police said Friday.


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008224378_apasmalaysiabeatingritual.html

[Baby Nemesis]

It's amazing what some people will do!

Here's an interesting astrology one: Planetary Panic Leaves Town Deserted. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/337932.stm)

Thousands of workers have fled India's largest ship-breaking yard, after rumours predicting large-scale destruction as a result of a peculiar planetary formation.

More than 60,000 workers have left the port town of Alang, in the belief that the town will be devastated by a cyclone and flooding on Saturday 8 May.

Leading Indian scientists and astrologers have dismissed the rumour as "nonsense".

Nobody quite knows how the rumour began.

According to one Indian newspaper, the doomsday prediction was published in the April issue of an astrological magazine.

Some others have pointed to a doomsday prediction in some ancient Indian religious texts.

Whatever the origin of the rumour, it has already had a devastating impact on the economy of a flourishing port township in western India. ...

[Blue Wode]

Krelnik, you might want to put this in your chiropractic section – a 33-year-old mother of two who recently suffered a stroke at the hands of a New Zealand chiropractor:
http://www.hdc.org.nz/files/hdc/opinions/07hdc20616chiropractor.pdf

From page 6 of the above link:
In this case, the artery that dissected was a vertebral artery, which is more likely to be prone to dissection because of anatomy and the action of the neck manipulation. The personal injury was present within 9 days of treatment. Other than tension headaches, there is no reliable evidence to identify any underlying disease that would be implicated in the dissection of the artery.

On balance, the personal injury is determined to have been caused by the neck manipulation performed on 09/11/2007.


News report here:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10532931

[krelnik]

Thanks for all the great submissions! Sorry I haven't updated the site in a few weeks, sometimes real life intervenes. I'm going to try to get an update posted this weekend.

[dudalb]

I really hope this Blossom Goodchild "The Light Ships Are coming to take us away"crap is not another freaking Heaven's Gate.

[Graham2001]

More fun & games with GPS, now in Poland.

WARSAW (AFP) – A Polish driver who was too sure of his GPS road navigation device ended up neck-deep in a lake after ignoring road signs warning of a dead-end ahead, Polish police said Friday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081024/od_afp/polandaccidentoffbeat_081024181725

[steenkh]

Here is a where a person is severely injured after falling from a scaffolding (http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2008/10/worker-breaks-leg-at-loop-site.html). Clearly trust in ladders, scaffolding, or footwear is misplaced.

[krelnik]

If you can show me where there has been a pattern of deliberate misinformation being spread about the safety of ladders, scaffolding or footwear, I might consider adding it.


(Yes, I realize you were joking. I am too.).

[steenkh]

(Never mind - I did not see you joke note :) )

[phildonnia]

(EDITED: Never mind, I see she has a different last name than her mother).

I didn't see Eliza Jane Maggiore on your site. Particularly heartbreaking; AIDS denier mother gave her 3-year old child the disease, and refused antiretrovirials for her.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Maggiore

[John Freestone]

Hi Krelnik, congratulations on the new site - it's a great idea and looks like it's coming along nicely.

I don't have time to check all though the thread, so maybe someone has already said this - I think it would be really good to use your original inspiration of the names on the memorial. I did see that someone suggested each name could appear on a headstone, but what was so moving about the memorial was the scale - so it would be good to have all the names visible in one place - it is the massive number of names that makes the impact.

Obviously there are questions about whether it is appropriate only for fatalities, or whether names could be marked with basic details, including type of damage incurred. There are design limitations of trying to put thousands of names in one place, but I guess some of the design experts around here could come up with solutions. A real wall of names can span horizonally a massive length - the reader could scroll sideways in a frame near the top of the main page, similarly to someone walking past a real wall. It might even be useful to allow a distant view, where names arent readable, and zooming in.

Alternatively, names could be just listed vertically. Maybe there is something simlar and I've missed it. I realised there are lists in each section, but that reduces the overall impact of the total. Written numbers aren't quite the same.

All the best
John

[krelnik]

Yes, I think the idea of alternative presentations for the data on the site is still a good one. I would still like to do the original "Wall of Harm" idea at TAM or another skeptical event. Others have suggested doing video presentations based on the cases.

I've had a blog post pending for a while on ways that others can "cook" the data on the site without my intervention. I'll see about finishing that and maybe some folks out there can start experimenting.

Thanks!

[Professor Yaffle]

Has anyone sent you this case of a diabetic healing therapist who died of gangrene after a foot injury?

http://www.badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6747

[krelnik]

Yes, that's a wild case, isn't it? I couldn't have scripted a more quintessential story.

[Baby Nemesis]

Here's a nasty story, thankfully with a reasonably happy ending, at least for the person specifically featured:

Marie Paule’s story: Surviving life on the streets of Kinshasa, DR Congo

... The last eight years have been difficult for Marie Paule. Her life changed after her father died in a plane crash. True to local customs, the family turned to a church leader to help them reveal the person whose ill will caused the family’s misfortune. Marie Paule and her older sister were accused; her elder
sister confessed under the pressure of an ‘anointing’ by a pastor who poured hot oil on her.

The girls were saved from being burnt alive when a vigilant neighbour alerted police. That night, however, they were thrown out of the uncle’s house – and that’s when their life on the streets began.*
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/drcongo_34658.html

This kind of thing's a huge problem. From http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003348293_congowitches05.html

... Feeding these beliefs are mushrooming revivalist churches throughout the country, where spurious pastors offer to exorcise spirits — sometimes charging fees, sometimes subjecting children to physical or psychological abuse. There are thought to be more than 2,000 such churches in Kinshasa, a city of perhaps
9 million people. ...

Aid workers estimate that there are 25,000 to 50,000 children living on the streets here, and their numbers are growing. As many as 70 percent have been abandoned for allegedly practicing sorcery, according to a report this year by New York-based Human Rights Watch. ...

"It's a typical case: You see someone losing their job, and they look at home for an explanation. Where is this bad luck coming from? They see the child, who has certain negative characteristics: Maybe he is difficult, maybe he wets his bed.

"That becomes enough to accuse them of sorcery."

And here's another nasty story:

In hiding for exposing Tanzania witchdoctors: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7523796.stm

I am living in hiding after I received threats because of my undercover work exposing the threat from witchdoctors to albinos living in Tanzania.

I do not regret it, even if I am very scared. ...

If nothing is done about this network, they could kill every albino in the country - estimates vary between 4,000 and 173,000. ...

They are being killed because local witchdoctors say their body parts provide the potent ingredient for magic charms, which many local people use to bring success in business and love. ...

So I posed as a businesswoman who wanted to get rich and "consulted" 10 witchdoctors.

The consultations included talking to a hedge and telling my problems to a chicken. ...

And here's another one:

Here, witch is just another word for victim (http://www.rickross.com/reference/wicca/wicca51.html)

Yendi, Ghana -- Mariama Bawa is a witch.

At least that's what her family members say. They believe she caused her 25-year-old son to be struck and killed by lightning, so they have sent her here, to the Ngani witches camp in the northern lands of this West Africa country. ...

Segregating widows as witches is embedded in the culture here, where 90 percent of Ghana's 21 million residents, even the college graduates who live in
bustling urban centers, believe in witchcraft.

In the area around the camps, conditions can be more extreme, says sociologist Gabi Waibel, a gender-issues expert who spent five years in Ghana. For example,
the literacy rate in this area is just 10 percent, there are few medical facilities, it's common for people to believe ordinary objects such as trees are inhabited with supernatural powers, and children are raised to believe old wives' tales: If a witch catches your soul, you are dead. ...

Hawabu Tarana was accused of "making someone sick."

Tarana, then a 58-year-old widow and mother of eight, says she was living with her brother and his family when she was sent to a soothsayer. Tarana says the witch doctor, convinced of her guilt, beat her savagely with a stick on her head, arms and back. ...

And here's a terrible story:

Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/09/tracymcveigh.theobserver)

Evangelical pastors are helping to create a terrible new campaign of violence against young Nigerians. Children and babies branded as evil are being abused,
abandoned and even murdered while the preachers make money out of the fear of their parents and their communities ...

Mary Sudnad, 10, grimaces as her hair is pulled into corn rows by Agnes, 11, but the scalp just above her forehead is bald and blistered. Mary tells her
story fast, in staccato, staring fixedly at the ground.

'My youngest brother died. The pastor told my mother it was because I was a witch. Three men came to my house. I didn't know these men. My mother left the house. Left these men. They beat me.' She pushes her fists under her chin to show how her father lay, stretched out on his stomach on the floor of their hut, watching. After the beating there was a trip to the church for 'a deliverance'.

A day later there was a walk in the bush with her mother. They picked poisonous 'asiri' berries that were made into a draught and forced down Mary's throat.
If that didn't kill her, her mother warned her, then it would be a barbed-wire hanging. Finally her mother threw boiling water and caustic soda over her head and body, and her father dumped his screaming daughter in a field. Drifting in and out of consciousness, she stayed near the house for a long time before finally slinking off into the bush.Mary was seven. She says she still doesn't feel safe. She says: 'My mother doesn't love me.' And, finally, a
tear streaks down her beautiful face. ...

And this is nasty as well:

... Visitors to the week-long fair in Dar es Salaam will see a rather gruesome exhibit of human body parts in an effort to raise awareness about the underground trade in human skin which has hit southern Tanzania over the past two years.

The head of the forensic science division in the chief chemist's office, which is exhibiting the parts, Gloria Machube, told the BBC's Focus on Africa programme that the human skin is used in witchcraft. ...

In 2001 police broke a skin-smuggling ring and 13 people were charged with murder.

A total of six young people are thought to have been killed and skinned in the Mbeya region of south-western Tanzania.

Ezekiah Swila was 13-years-old when his body was found skinned at Kisinga village.

Three more cases followed in Ileje and Mbozi, both districts in Mbeya, near the Zambian border. ...

And there's this:

Mayor on witchcraft charge (http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/07/29/fhead_10.htm)

A SENIOR member of Zimbabwe’s ruling party has been accused of murdering a 12 year old girl to use her organs in tribal rites he believed would increase his business fortune.
Faber Chidarike, 53, mayor of Chinhoyi, 70 miles northwest of Harare, is also linked to several other violent crimes under investigation by police.

The politician was charged with the murder of Esnath Rangles in 1987 and dismembering her genitals for tribal rituals. ...

Tribal rituals using animals are common in Zimbabwe to enhance wealth and invoke the powers of spirits in business and politics.
Human organs, however, are believed to be more potent, creating a grim black market in human body parts.

[Graham2001]

More on the harm superstition can bring:

UYO, Nigeria (Reuters) - Police have arrested a man in southeastern Nigeria who said in a television documentary he had killed 110 children he believed to be possessed by evil spirits, officials said on Wednesday.
Rights campaigners say fraudulent pastors or "witchdoctors" in some parts of Nigeria convince parents that their children are possessed and will bring misfortune such as divorce or disease so as to extort money to perform exorcisms.
Some accused children fall into the hands of child trafficking networks after being handed over by their parents.
"We are working on the orders of the state governor to arrest all those involved in all forms of child abuse and trafficking," Akwa Ibom state's commissioner for information, Aniekan Umanah, told Reuters.
Umanah said Bishop Sunday Ulup-Aya, arrested in Mbo close to the Atlantic coast with six other suspects, had claimed in a documentary to have killed 110 children beset by evil spirits.
"I am not denying that I am a witchdoctor, but what I killed are witches in my patients with herbs, not children," Ulup-Aya said while in detention.


http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/odd/5189592/nigeria-witchdoctor-held-child-killing-claim/

[Baby Nemesis]

Good. They're finally being brought to justice.

And there's this: HUMAN Remains at Witch Doctor Shrines (Sky News, Aug 2004). (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1147657,00.html)

Nigerian police have recovered the mutilated remains of 83 people following a series of raids on witch doctor shrines. ...