The fighters over Ground Zero

[MaGZ]

Exactly when did the fighters from Otis ANGB arrive over NYC to patrol the air space on 9/11?

[Reheat]

For what, flying Joooooooooos?

[Tweeter]

To late?

[WildCat]

Explain again how an air-to-air missile hitting WTC7 caused it to collapse 5 hours later?

[MG1962]

The first aircraft were dispatched at 9.15am - I am not sure how long it took them to take up station. I recall an interview with one of the Mayor's aids - In which Guli told him to get on the phone and get air cover for the city. The aid said the first thing that went through his head "Where the hell do you find that phone number"

It is all pretty mute, because the fighters were not given clearence to shoot down errant planes till sometime after 10am

[stateofgrace]

To late?

To do what ?

[Drudgewire]

To do what ?
Guide those big airliners into the buildings, since no cavemen could steer a plane into them by themselves. :rolleyes:

[Dave Rogers]

Exactly when did the fighters from Otis ANGB arrive over NYC to patrol the air space on 9/11?

When the Jews told them to.

Dave

[MaGZ]

The Otis fighters took off about the time flight 11 hit WTC 1. When did they arrive over NYC to patrol the air space? Any experts out there who can answer this?

[Tweeter]

To do what ?
It was a rhetorical question.

[defaultdotxbe]

It was a rhetorical question.
"too late" isnt a question, rhetorical or otherwise


could this be why truthers make so many claims when they are supposed to be "just asking questions?" they dont even know what a question is?

[funk de fino]

The Otis fighters took off about the time flight 11 hit WTC 1. When did they arrive over NYC to patrol the air space? Any experts out there who can answer this?

They were not scrambled to patrol airspace. They were scrambled to intercept the hijacked planes (this does not mean shootdown by the way)

Later that morning planes were scrambled to patrol airspace.

The initial ones from otis got there too late and did not have shootdown auth anyway. They took off at approx 08:52 and the second plane hit around 09:03.

Your fantasy missile theory is a dead duck

[MaGZ]

They were not scrambled to patrol airspace. They were scrambled to intercept the hijacked planes (this does not mean shootdown by the way)

Later that morning planes were scrambled to patrol airspace.

The initial ones from otis got there too late and did not have shootdown auth anyway. They took off at approx 08:52 and the second plane hit around 09:03.

Your fantasy missile theory is a dead duck

Last night I saw a documentary on National Geographic Channel called the Voices of 9/11 which showed an Otis fighter over Ground Zero when both towers were standing. I would just like to know when this Otis fighter arrived.

[WildCat]

Last night I saw a documentary on National Geographic Channel called the Voices of 9/11 which showed an Otis fighter over Ground Zero when both towers were standing. I would just like to know when this Otis fighter arrived.
You also once posted a video of a "missile" at GZ that was flapping its wings... :rolleyes:

[johnny karate]

Last night I saw a documentary on National Geographic Channel called the Voices of 9/11 which showed an Otis fighter over Ground Zero when both towers were standing. I would just like to know when this Otis fighter arrived.

Well, the National Geographic Channel is a subsidiary of Fox Cable Networks, and therefore a highly suspect source.

What you saw was most likely some form of NWO propaganda and not to be trusted.

[defaultdotxbe]

Last night I saw a documentary on National Geographic Channel called the Voices of 9/11 which showed an Otis fighter over Ground Zero when both towers were standing. I would just like to know when this Otis fighter arrived.
about what time in the show did you see this? its on again tonight so im going to tape it

[WildCat]

about what time in the show did you see this? its on again tonight so im going to tape it
Nope, it aired at 1am Eastern. Won't be on again until 2am Sunday morning.

[CurtC]

It is all pretty mute, because the fighters were not given...

They were not only mute, they were invisible too!

[Alareth]

It is all pretty mute MOOT, because the fighters were not given clearence to shoot down errant planes till sometime after 10am


Moot! It's moot dammit!

Sorry MG but that is one of my major pet peeves.

[Alferd_Packer]

For what, flying Joooooooooos?

Ask, and you shall receive.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4dgj_Hx8PJo

[defaultdotxbe]

Nope, it aired at 1am Eastern. Won't be on again until 2am Sunday morning.
ah yes, the "day" usually starts before i wake, lol

damn you wolrd for not revolving aorund me!



sunday then, ill set my tivo

[jaydeehess]

Last night I saw a documentary on National Geographic Channel called the Voices of 9/11 which showed an Otis fighter over Ground Zero when both towers were standing. I would just like to know when this Otis fighter arrived.

Was either tower on fire in that shot? If not then it is most likely stock footage of the towers from some time prior to 9/11/01. After all there is a lot of footage of those towers especially from the time of the 1909's bombing.

What causes you to characterize the object(s) you see in the footage as "fighters"? Why do you state they are "Otis" fighters? Is this your own characterization or is it stated in the documentary? If its your's then why should we believe your assesment? If it is Nat Geo's claim then are there any clues in the video that could illustrate that this is indeed footage from 9/11, such as the aforementioned fires(flames on upper floors, smoke does not count as definitive given the smoke proiduced in the prior bombing), or automobiles in the scenes that can show that the video was taken in the right decade. Is it a morning shot, where is the sun? If the sun is on the west side of the towers then its an afternoon shot and that would illustrate definitively that the video was taken on some day prior to 9/11/01.

[WildCat]

Was either tower on fire in that shot? If not then it is most likely stock footage of the towers from some time prior to 9/11/01. After all there is a lot of footage of those towers especially from the time of the 1909's bombing.
My job as NWO conspirator is made ever more difficult when you bring up the 1909 WTC bombing. You should have known the WTC didn't officially exist then!

[phunk]

Got my tivo set to record it, in HD. I'll post screen shots of the "fighters" if I see them.

[defaultdotxbe]

Got my tivo set to record it, in HD. I'll post screen shots of the "fighters" if I see them.
you have bested me sir

ill still record it, ill make an .avi if anyone wants it

[Alferd_Packer]

My job as NWO conspirator is made ever more difficult when you bring up the 1909 WTC bombing. You should have known the WTC didn't officially exist then!


1909, just 6 years after the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" was first published.


1909 upside down is 6061 OH NOES (no "O's") = 6661!!!

[funk de fino]

Last night I saw a documentary on National Geographic Channel called the Voices of 9/11 which showed an Otis fighter over Ground Zero when both towers were standing. I would just like to know when this Otis fighter arrived.

After the towers were hit obviously.

[rwguinn]

After the towers were hit obviously.

What is anOtis Fighter.
Otis makes Elevators.
Lockheed Martin, Grumman, McDonnel Douglas make fighters (in the US)
I know F-series and A-series, and even F/A series.

We got Eagles, Vipers, Falcons, Tomcats, AArdvarks...
Not a single one is an Otis...

[Gravy]

The fighters arrived over Manhattan at 9:25, after waiting in a holding pattern 115 miles away until the FAA cleared the airspace.

[MaGZ]

The fighters arrived over Manhattan at 9:25, after waiting in a holding pattern 115 miles away until the FAA cleared the airspace.

Not according to Bob Varcapade,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14754701/


Bob Varcapade: I rememember the two F-15’s. They were moments after the impact. And I was just said to myself, “If they only could’ve gotten there a couple minutes earlier. They just missed it.”

[Anti-sophist]

Not according to Bob Varcapade,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14754701/

So what's your point? A single eye witness against a mountain of evidence is supposed to prove what?

[funk de fino]

Not according to Bob Varcapade,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14754701/

Even assuming what he said is true you have to take this also?

Callahan: But what would they have done?

Brokaw: What do you think they would’ve done, though?

Callahan: 20/20 hindsight—

Varcapane: I don’t know what they have done.

Brokaw: They probably would have had to shoot it down.

Callahan: But back then, that only came from the President.

Varcapane: Right.



Give it up, missiles are not an option.

[Corsair 115]

So what's your point? A single eye witness against a mountain of evidence is supposed to prove what?It's supposed to prove that a Sidewinder air-to-air missile with a 22 lb. warhead or a AMRAAM air-to-air missile with a 50 lb. warhead or a Sparrow air-to-air missile with an 88 lb. warhead hit and destroyed WTC7. Or something like that.

[WildCat]

It's supposed to prove that a Sidewinder air-to-air missile with a 22 lb. warhead or a AMRAAM air-to-air missile with a 50 lb. warhead or a Sparrow air-to-air missile with an 88 lb. warhead
Do any of those missiles have flapping wings?

[Corsair 115]

Do any of those missiles have flapping wings?Maybe the super-secret ornithopter-inspired versions do...

[beachnut]

moments after? exactly how many moments? Was this guy in the bath room for 20 minutes came out and...

[jaydeehess]

My job as NWO conspirator is made ever more difficult when you bring up the 1909 WTC bombing. You should have known the WTC didn't officially exist then!

%$^%^ &$^%$&*&
in other words
D'oh!!
However, MaGz, being the astute individual he is, will know I transposed two numerals and understand I meant the 1099 bombing.;) It was blamed on the Normans.

[jaydeehess]

So, I take it both towers are burning in the video. That illustrates that the fighters, be they indeed fighters, in the video, arrived no later than after the second impact.

Does this show something else MaGZ?

"Moments", now there's a precision one can hang a conspiracy theory on.

[MG1962]

Moot! It's moot dammit!

Sorry MG but that is one of my major pet peeves.

Na thats fine and a good catch - I really should know better. I suupose you could say I mootalated the use of the word :p

[Gravy]

Not according to Bob Varcapade,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14754701/He is wrong. See the NORAD tapes and transcripts, and the 9/11 Commission report. As I have shown with many 9/11 witness accounts, time moved much more quickly than the witnesses thought it did.

[MaGZ]

He is wrong. See the NORAD tapes and transcripts, and the 9/11 Commission report. As I have shown with many 9/11 witness accounts, time moved much more quickly than the witnesses thought it did.

I wish Bob Varcapade would join our forum in the same way CheapShot from Boston did. My bet is he would take issue with you.

[TheRedWorm]

When an eyewitness contradicts physical evidence, physical evidence is usually considered more reliable.

[MaGZ]

When an eyewitness contradicts physical evidence, physical evidence is usually considered more reliable.

There were other ATC in the room during the NBC interview. If he said something inaccurate other ATCs could have corrected him.

[TheRedWorm]

They may not have realized what he said, or didn't feel like correcting/interrupting him. But it is moot because, as I said earlier, "When an eyewitness contradicts physical evidence, physical evidence is usually considered more reliable."

[Gravy]

I wish Bob Varcapade would join our forum in the same way CheapShot from Boston did. My bet is he would take issue with you.
Why bet? If you care about his opinion, why don't you show him the NORAD tapes and transcripts and the 9/11 Commission report, and ask him what he thinks?

You won't.

[jaydeehess]

There were other ATC in the room during the NBC interview. If he said something inaccurate other ATCs could have corrected him.

That would require that the other ATC decided as you do, that "moments" must mean within seconds.

[PhantomWolf]

Cheap Shot already pointed out that he found it almost impossible to put a time line together and that he found the official ones strange because things seemed to happen faster to him (also cause he acknowledges that his watch is usually 5-7 mins out too)

[beachnut]

I will be there in a moment. Hours later...

How can someone be so research challenged?

[DGM]

There were other ATC in the room during the NBC interview. If he said something inaccurate other ATCs could have corrected him.
Yes and in the interview they say the fighters left at 8:53. Do you think he would argue how fast they got there. Even without the FAA delay the fighters would not have got there "within moments" of the impact. Do you think he might know this?

[jaydeehess]

9:03 to 9:50 time that both towers were burning

8:44 jets scrambled, 8:52 they leave the runway
--- that's only 8 minutes

8:45 first plane hits the north tower
---- that's only 1 minute before planes are alerted and 7 minutes before they leave the runway and 18 minutes before the next impact

The fighters have at best 9 - 10 minutes (8:52 to 9:03) to not only reach NYC but to also identify the hijacked aircraft, get authorization to shoot, lock on and fire.

No auth to shoot was given.

What would have been the foreseeable gain in shooting the aircraft down?
Yes, the people in NYC, the ATC, the fighter pilots perhaps all knew that the first aircraft had hit the tower. Yes, even GWB was informed of that. A shoot down of the second aircraft would require that GWB be informed of a second hijacking. That it be confirmed absolutly that there was indeed a second hijacking headed for Manhattan and that he decide, on the spot, to order a shootdown. that order would then have to be transmitted to the military controllers guiding the fighters and they would relay the order to the pilots who would then have to positively ID the hijacked aircraft after locating it and shoot at it. that's , at max, 18 minutes for all that to happen.

This is not the POTUS being told "Russian missiles are coming, you have 20 minutes to retaliate or lose some of your retailiation capability". This is "there is a second aircraft headed to Manhattan. It may also be a suicide mission or it may be a bargaining style hijacking that uses the first impact as proof of what the hijacker's group is capable of doing. It may also be a mistake and there is no second hijacking in which case ordering a shootdown is likely to result in unneccessarily killing several dozen Americans on the planes and an unknown number on the ground"

ETA:
Kennedy was told at one time during the Cuban missile crisis that a missile was in the air near Fla. If it was a Russian missile he had 10 minutes before it would impact D.C. 10 minutes to decide whether or not to create a smoking hole where Cuba is, and where Moscow is. After that he will no longer be making any decisions,,, if it is a Russian missile. He chose not to shoot and it turned out to be a test firing of an American missile (some dumb bast*** just don't get it).

[njslim]

So, I take it both towers are burning in the video. That illustrates that the fighters, be they indeed fighters, in the video, arrived no later than after the second impact.

Does this show something else MaGZ?

"Moments", now there's a precision one can hang a conspiracy theory on.

Below is part of transcript from Battalion 7 chief Orio Palmer as he and his men were
climbing stairs in South Tower

Speaker 9:31am
Bat.7 Aide
Battalion Seven, you want me to relay?

Lad.15
Yeah, Steve tell Chief Palmer they got reports that there's more planes in the area, we may have to back down here.

Bat.7 Aide
Ten-four

Bat.7 Alpha
Seven Alpha to Seven?

Bat.7
Steve, Seven to Seven Alpha.

Lad.15
Fifteen to Fifteen Roof?

unidentified
Fifteen Roof.

Lad.15
We got reports of another incoming plane. We may have to take cover. Stay in the stairwell.

Lad.15 Roof
Ten-four

Lad.15
Fifteen to 15 Roof. That plane's ours. I repeat. It's ours. What floor are you on, Scotty?"

Lad.15 Roof
Fifty-four.

Lad.15
Alright. Keep making your way up. We're behind you.

Lad.15 Roof
Ten-Four

[parky76]

id like to see an image of the entree damage the "missile" made in wtc 7.

[gumboot]

The obvious place to find that information would be an interview with the Otis pilots, which I have already given you before MaGZ.

But it was already too late. By the time the jets had left Otis, Flight 11 had crashed into the World Trade Center. Eleven months later, Nasty doesn't even recall hearing that the first plane hit.

And by the time he heard a word about a second hijacked plane, United Airlines Flight 175, it had already smashed into the second tower before the horrified eyes of millions on TV.

That happened at 9:02 a.m., according to NORAD records. The two Otis F-15s were about 71 miles - or eight minutes - from Manhattan.

Visibility was extremely clear that morning, and Nasty could see the plume of black smoke pouring from the first tower.

With both buildings in flames, radar controllers watching the skies over Manhattan and military controllers based in Rome, N.Y., tried to make sense of what had happened, and coordinate military and rescue aircraft.

For a few minutes, the Otis jets were directed to a 150-mile chunk of air space off Long Island where the unit's pilots typically train.

"Neither the civilian controller or the military controller knew what they wanted us to do," Nasty recalls.

But within minutes, the pilots received orders to head to Manhattan for combat air patrol, which would become a routine mission for Otis pilots over the next several months.

The two pilots tried to identify the dozens of small aircraft suddenly flying over Manhattan. There were several police and rescue aircraft, but also media helicopters and a few curious small-plane pilots.

Nasty and Duff alternated. One would drive away those aircraft that didn't belong toward airspace over the ocean, while the other monitored Manhattan.

They refueled in midair just over the water.

While they usually flew at about 10,000 feet in those first few hours, the pilots sometimes had to get as low as 500 feet off the ground.

"I didn't dream of ever flying that low over any major cities," Nasty recalls, "especially that one."

The Cape Cod Times (http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/planes/analysis/norad/capecodtimes082102_ithought.html)

So the fighters arrived at 09:10. "A few minutes later" they were authorised to establish a CAP over Manhattan.

-Gumboot

[jaydeehess]

The obvious place to find that information would be an interview with the Otis pilots, which I have already given you before MaGZ.

That happened at 9:02 a.m., according to NORAD records. The two Otis F-15s were about 71 miles - or eight minutes - from Manhattan.


So the fighters arrived at 09:10. "A few minutes later" they were authorised to establish a CAP over Manhattan.

-Gumboot

the quantitative measure of time, 8 minutes would, in my books, easily be equal to the qualitative measure of time known as "moments".

[SDC]

id like to see an image of the entree damage the "missile" made in wtc 7.

My bolding.

Well, for one thing, the souffle was a wreck.