Analogy for: "too many things just don't make sense"

[Open Blinded]

Lately when debating with truthers I get these type of statements after debunking them with evidence:

"Ok, but don't you think that too many things went wrong that day? I just don't see how it could all be coincidence"

or

"Even if there is no hard evidence, it seems to fit their agenda for this war in Iraq"

or

"Connect the dots, everything fits together if you take a step back and look at it"

I know these are not good arguments but I would like to be able to hit them with an analogy like:

"If a kid in your neighborhood was known to spread graffiti and then there was an unsolved murder in your neighborhood would you convict the kid just because of some other bad things he has done without proper evidence for the murder?"

I don't think mine is very good but I would like suggestions for other analogy's.

Or an argument against the whole "it just fits together man" statement.

Thanks

[Sizzler]

Lately when debating with truthers I get these type of statements after debunking them with evidence:

"Ok, but don't you think that too many things went wrong that day? I just don't see how it could all be coincidence"

or

"Even if there is no hard evidence, it seems to fit their agenda for this war in Iraq"

or

"Connect the dots, everything fits together if you take a step back and look at it"

I know these are not good arguments but I would like to be able to hit them with an analogy like:

"If a kid in your neighborhood was known to spread graffiti and then there was an unsolved murder in your neighborhood would you convict the kid just because of some other bad things he has done without proper evidence for the murder?"

I don't think mine is very good but I would like suggestions for other analogy's.

Or an argument against the whole "it just fits together man" statement.

Thanks

I like this one;

Mother notices strange behavior of son;

bags under his eyes
skinny
doesn't eat much
never home anymore
always in a bad mood
never has any money
always either hyper, or super depressed
etc etc.

Although she is a drug councilor, all these things must be the result of studying too hard, because it is after all the end of the term.

After all, she hasn't found any drugs in his room yet. (Although she hasn't really looked yet.)

Well she did find a needle once, but that must have been part of his science class. Perfectly explainable.

[Open Blinded]

I like this one;

Mother notices strange behavior of son;

bags under his eyes
skinny
doesn't eat much
never home anymore
always in a bad mood
never has any money
always either hyper, or super depressed
etc etc.

Although she is a drug councilor, all these things must be the result of studying too hard, because it is after all the end of the term.

After all, she hasn't found any drugs in his room yet. (Although she hasn't really looked yet.)

Well she did find a needle once, but that must have been part of his science class. Perfectly explainable.

Ahhh, I see what you did there. The ol' switch-a-roo. :th:

[LashL]

In the real world, anyone who has any experience in investigation of any sort, criminal or otherwise, knows that there are anomalies, inconsistencies, and coincidences in almost any given case, which are never ultimately resolved or explained. This is simply reality. In the real world, almost any given case will include extraneous and unexplained bits and pieces, some of which may even look highly suspicious but turn out to be merely coincidental and ultimately unrelated to the matter at hand. The real world is not like a television show in which every last anomaly and every last piece of information is tied up with a neat little bow to fit in with the ultimate conclusion of the matter.

I realize that's not an analogy, which is what you were specifically asking for, but I thought I'd mention it anyway since it is, in fact, reality. Perhaps you could invite the woo believers with whom you're discussing these things to speak to police officers, prosecutors, defence lawyers, investigators, etc., who will most certainly disabuse them of the notion that extraneous facts, evidence, anomalies, and coincidences are in any way unusual.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I would be far more suspicious if there were no anomalies or coincidences or inconsistencies among witnesses to chaotic and unexpected events.

The expectation twoofers have that tens of thousands pieces of potential evidence, thousands of witnesses, and hundreds of thousands of pages of information garnered by thousands of investigators, should be perfectly packaged and perfectly consistent, with no overlap, no anomalies, no coincidences, and no inconsistencies indicates to me that they have no concept of how things work in the real world. And that they watch too much television.

[Par]

I like this one;

Mother notices strange behavior of son;

bags under his eyes
skinny
doesn't eat much
never home anymore
always in a bad mood
never has any money
always either hyper, or super depressed
etc etc.

Although she is a drug councilor, all these things must be the result of studying too hard, because it is after all the end of the term.

After all, she hasn't found any drugs in his room yet. (Although she hasn't really looked yet.)

Well she did find a needle once, but that must have been part of his science class. Perfectly explainable.


That would be fine. You’d just need to make the following alterations:


Remove any of the symptoms incompatible with the studying explanation.
Add a mountain of evidence in favour of the studying explanation and emphasise that there is none in favour of the drugs explanation.
Lose the syringe.

[Pardalis]

Par, I think Sizzler is making his "coming out".

[jhunter1163]

I like this one;

Mother notices strange behavior of son;

bags under his eyes
skinny
doesn't eat much
never home anymore
always in a bad mood
never has any money
always either hyper, or super depressed
etc etc.

Although she is a drug councilor, all these things must be the result of studying too hard, because it is after all the end of the term.

After all, she hasn't found any drugs in his room yet. (Although she hasn't really looked yet.)

Well she did find a needle once, but that must have been part of his science class. Perfectly explainable.


This is actually a very good analogy for the Truth movement.

Truthers would say "SHE FOUND A NEEDLE! OMG DRUGGIE!!!!11!1!!!". They wouldn't tell you it was an insulin syringe to treat the kid's diabetes.

They'd run down the list of his symptoms, each of which would be a symptom of diabetes.

They'd say "HE HAZ NO MONEY DRUGGIE!!!!!!1!1!!eleventy!!!" and not point out that the poor kid is 12 and has no job.

And they wouldn't mention his straight-A report card, his medical records, or the pile of "Controlling Your Diabetes" literature found in his house.

[gumboot]

Basically, Conspiracy Theorists are Austin Powers...

[returning Austin's personal property after reanimating him]
Quartermaster Clerk: One Swedish-made penis enlarger.
Austin Powers: [to Vanessa] That's not mine.
Quartermaster Clerk: One credit card receipt for Swedish-made penis enlarger signed by Austin Powers.
Austin Powers: I'm telling ya baby, that's not mine.
Quartermaster Clerk: One warranty card for Swedish-made penis enlarger pump, filled out by Austin Powers.
Austin Powers:I don't even know what this is! This sort of thing ain't my bag, baby.
Quartermaster Clerk: One book, "Swedish-made Penis Enlargers And Me: This Sort of Thing Is My Bag Baby", by Austin Powers.
IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118655/quotes)

-Gumboot

[Open Blinded]

Basically, Conspiracy Theorists are Austin Powers...



-Gumboot


So that would make us Dr. Evil?

Dr. Evil: Mini-me, we do not gnaw on the kitty.

:D

[Sizzler]

[QUOTE=LashL;3321780]
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I would be far more suspicious if there were no anomalies or coincidences or inconsistencies among witnesses to chaotic and unexpected events.

QUOTE]

So what are some of the anomalies then?

[Sizzler]

This is actually a very good analogy for the Truth movement.

Truthers would say "SHE FOUND A NEEDLE! OMG DRUGGIE!!!!11!1!!!". They wouldn't tell you it was an insulin syringe to treat the kid's diabetes.

They'd run down the list of his symptoms, each of which would be a symptom of diabetes.

They'd say "HE HAZ NO MONEY DRUGGIE!!!!!!1!1!!eleventy!!!" and not point out that the poor kid is 12 and has no job.

And they wouldn't mention his straight-A report card, his medical records, or the pile of "Controlling Your Diabetes" literature found in his house.


LOL

:D
:D

[Open Blinded]

So what are some of the anomalies then?

Your incessant JAQing is played out.

You know what he means.

[T.A.M.]

It is ridiculous NOT TO EXPECT many, many anomalies and coincidences to occur in a complex event, occuring in three different venues, involving multiple institutions, thousands of people.

I think it is the truthers who are idiots for thinking that anomalies and coincidences in this case mean "inside jorb!!"

TAM:)

[MG1962]

Hmmm

Man plans asasination with friend

Friend fails to act

Man gets angry - argues with friend - gets hungry, goes to bakery

Walks out eating cake - target's car comes around the corner - taking a wrong turn

Man finishes cake while driver cant get car in reverse

Man thinks - what the hell - pulls out gun, shoots target

Man does not want to be captured alive - Drinks poison

Out of date, does not kill him

Man races down street, throws himself of bridge

Man lands in only part of river too shallow to either kill or drown him

Man arrested

Country that arrested man refuses to give man to country that target came from

Countries get huffy with each other because man is still alive

World War I breaks out

[Whiplash]

There are too many things in the entire world that don't make sense. It's just a fact of life still. It's why people gravitate towards woo and religion as well. Because they give peace of mind to people who can't handle all the things we don't understand or that don't make sense. Everywhere you look there are many things that don't make sense.

[Reality Believer]

Analogy for: "too many things just don't make sense"

Some analogies / allegories / metaphors that I have used in the past:

Missing / anomalous data:

"Missing data is like having a giant jigsaw puzzle with a few missing pieces, or pieces that don't fit, and then claim that you can't tell what the picture is supposed to be"

Connecting the dots:

When the dot pattern looks like a blast from a shotgun, you can draw just about any picture you like.

Preponderance of the evidence:

"Drilling a few small holes in the Hoover dam does not prove that it doesn't hold water"

Relying on experts in the field:

"If you needed heart surgery, would you go to a plumber? If you needed brain surgery, would you go to an electrician? If a member of your family was murdered, would you get a couple of kids from the local high school to do the forensic investigation?"

"If you are qualified to calculate the structural requirements necessary to build a skyscraper, then you are qualified to explain why they came down."

Anthropomorphizing the government to give it memory, conscience, powers of reason and nefarious thinking skills:
"The government is not a sentient being, but an organization that acts in unison. Like a flock of starlings that seem to move with a central conscience. There is no single starling in charge of the entire flock throughout the history of flight."

[CHF]

The "anomalies" and "councidences" argument is pretty stupid when you consider that the same can be said for almost any disaster or tragedy, including the sinking of the Titanic or even the Beslan massacre (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=76991).

In the case of 9/11 most of the "anomalies" are just twoofers being stupid and/or uneducated.

[nicepants]

This is actually a very good analogy for the Truth movement.

Truthers would say "SHE FOUND A NEEDLE! OMG DRUGGIE!!!!11!1!!!". They wouldn't tell you it was an insulin syringe to treat the kid's diabetes.

They'd run down the list of his symptoms, each of which would be a symptom of diabetes.

They'd say "HE HAZ NO MONEY DRUGGIE!!!!!!1!1!!eleventy!!!" and not point out that the poor kid is 12 and has no job.

And they wouldn't mention his straight-A report card, his medical records, or the pile of "Controlling Your Diabetes" literature found in his house.

Be sure you include that police & doctors have investigated and determined that the kid is not on drugs, but has been taking insulin for diabetes.

Also add that the people claiming he is doing drugs are experts at Philosophy and computer programming, and they all sell DVDs talking about the dangers of 12 year old kids on drugs.

[1337m4n]

Lately when debating with truthers I get these type of statements after debunking them with evidence:

"Ok, but don't you think that too many things went wrong that day? I just don't see how it could all be coincidence"

or

"Even if there is no hard evidence, it seems to fit their agenda for this war in Iraq"

or

"Connect the dots, everything fits together if you take a step back and look at it"

I know these are not good arguments but I would like to be able to hit them with an analogy like:

"If a kid in your neighborhood was known to spread graffiti and then there was an unsolved murder in your neighborhood would you convict the kid just because of some other bad things he has done without proper evidence for the murder?"

I don't think mine is very good but I would like suggestions for other analogy's.

Or an argument against the whole "it just fits together man" statement.

Thanks

The Tacoma Narrows Incident. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=100123)

Some of the responses in that thread are quite good and represent the Truth Movement's "logic" perfectly.

[1337m4n]

I like this one;

Mother notices strange behavior of son;

bags under his eyes
skinny
doesn't eat much
never home anymore
always in a bad mood
never has any money
always either hyper, or super depressed
etc etc.

Although she is a drug councilor, all these things must be the result of studying too hard, because it is after all the end of the term.

After all, she hasn't found any drugs in his room yet. (Although she hasn't really looked yet.)

Well she did find a needle once, but that must have been part of his science class. Perfectly explainable.

Sizz, if you think 9/11 was an inside job, PLEASE, just say so. We have a hundred times more respect for open and honest Truthers (like Max Photon) than people who pretend they're "neutral" and "just asking questions" (like LastChild).

[CptColumbo]

The universe doesn't care if it makes sense.

[PhantomWolf]

Two tales that show remarkable coinsidence are the tales of two set of victims.

Two of the victims were best friends who were to fly to LA that morning. Originally they were to fly together on Flight 11, but one of them decided to change her flight. They said goodbye at the airport thinking they'd be together agin soon enough in LA. Shortly after one and her daughter died at WTC1 as Flight 11 crashed into the building, followed a few minutes later by the other as her flight, 175, slammed into WTC2.

A second coincidence was that the body of one of the people located in the Pentagon was a mystery because while he worked there, he was not supposed to have been at work that day. He wasn't, he instead had been a passanger on Flight 77.

The world is just a strange place where strange things happen. Sometimes chaos can appear to make patterns, at other times chaos is just that.

[CurtC]

So what are some of the anomalies then?

I'll be polite to our new guest and provide a non-snarky answer. Any large complex event involving thousands of people is bound to have several coincidences. I think most would never be noticed because no one combs through the data to find them, but 9/11 was different; everything has been analyzed. Some of the coincidences that happened that day, that seem unlikely (without considering the previous sentences):
One of the hijacker's passport found in the street after the towers were struck.
Bernard Brown's son on the plane that hit the building where he worked.
Charred papers found a couple of miles from the UAL 93 crash site.
Mineta later recalling the timing of certain events a half-hour later than the time that everyone else recalled them.

Pretty much everything else I've heard about that day was expected, except for PhantomWolf's anecdotes - do you have names for those?

[PhantomWolf]

Pretty much everything else I've heard about that day was expected, except for PhantomWolf's anecdotes - do you have names for those?

I'm trying to locate the news article on the first, very hard due to the mess of pages out there, the second was Bryan Jack. (http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/VictimInfo.asp?ID=116) He died less than 200 feet from his office.