The 9/11 Truth Movement: Does it have legs?

[cisco]

From the reading I've done on the internet the last few years, it seems as if the "fact" that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by the US government is pretty much taken for granted now in the Middle East, much of Europe, and on community college campuses across America.

The Truth movement has used some very effective viral marketing tactics; slickly edited Youtube videos with cool music, Myspace pages, word of mouth, and perhaps most importantly, Googlebombing.

There was a time period around '05 - '06 when a Google search of 9/11 returned an entire first page of conspiracy sites. Even now the 2nd result is a Wikipedia entry on 9/11 conspiracies; the 4th and 5th 911Truth and 911Research, respectively, both before the official site of the 9/11 Commission. A Youtube search is even more disturbing, with the majority of results seeming to promote the conspiracy. Conspiracy videos are consistently rated high on Myspace (90% and up) and Youtube (4 to 5 stars) and comments are overwhelmingly supportive. The rare dissenter is quickly shouted down with cries of "slave", "idiot", and, saddest of all, "do your research."

What I'm wondering is, now that so many people take this for granted, can we reverse direction and go back up that road, and how? Once the average citizen of a foreign country believes this, how many generations will it be before his descendents are willing to believe something positive about the US government? How will the hearts and minds of disaffected young Americans who yearn to believe this be won back?

Will a popular Hollywood director make a film 30 years from now exploring the conspiracy theories and set a whole new generation ablaze with passionate belief in 9/11 Truth™ and bitter contempt for their leaders?

Will the NIST report of WTC 7 make a dent? Will a Democratic president make a dent? The end of the Iraq war? The closure of Gitmo and/or other secret prisons? Censure of those who supported torture? Years without a declaration of Martial Law? A combination of the above, or something else?

I blame the Bush Administration in part for creating and fostering an environment in which people are so willing to believe this. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there is nothing currently in circulation, on the internet or in print, that can make me believe the government of the United States was involved in or willfully allowed the violent deaths of 3,000 of its own citizens on 9/11/01.

Unfortunately, many don't agree.

[Quad4_72]

From the reading I've done on the internet the last few years, it seems as if the "fact" that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by the US government is pretty much taken for granted now in the Middle East, much of Europe, and on community college campuses across America.

What I'm wondering is, now that so many people take this for granted, can we reverse direction and go back up that road, and how?

Well first of all you are incorrect. There are not that many people that "take it for granted". The majority of people do not believe the ridiculous CTs. That is why I have seen MAYBE one twoofer in real life.

[PhantomWolf]

The Truth Movent is dying, even their own figures are showing that. About 30% of them joined in 2006, last year that figures dropped to just 6%. Polls that had up to 30% accepting MIHOP in 2006 are down to less than 5%. It'll never go away completely, but as the members gerow up and have to deal with real life, it'll end up the same as those that believe Apollo was hoaxed or Pearl Habor was a setup. A few people that are hardcore loons, some that desperately want to believe, and a few that jump on it for a year or so because they think it'll make them look cool.

[Brainache]

I'm pretty sure that if the "Truth Movement" has any legs, it doesn't know how to use them.

[cisco]

Well, I hope you're right. I know it's not overwhelmingly popular in America, but I've had an Indian tell me it is common knowledge in India, and a Norwegian tell me it is common knowledge in Norway. I've also read that the conspiracy theory is basically the official story to the average Middle Easterner.

Again, I hope I'm wrong, but if anything I think the claims might just be exaggerated, not wholly fabricated. Are there any polls from abroad?

ETA: I think handwaving the Truthers as an unpopular fringe movement is what allowed them to get so big in the first place. Unlike bigfoot or UFOs, etc., I believe that widespread, blind faith in 9/11 Troof is harmful, especially to our image in the world, which doesn't need to be kicked while it's down.

Imagine you're a 17 year old Iraqi getting on the internet for the first time and you Google 9/11. What's this? 9/11 Truth? Click. Oh, maybe those jihadists trying to recruit me the other day were right after all, what was the address of their meeting place again? (the preceding statement was for illustrative purposes only. I'm not saying that situation could or would ever happen exactly as written :).)

[Good Lt]

Imagine you're a 17 year old Iraqi getting on the internet for the first time and you Google 9/11. What's this? 9/11 Truth? Click. Oh, maybe those jihadists trying to recruit me the other day were right after all, what was the address of their meeting place again?

It seems you're saying that future generations of jihadis and anti-Americans have the 9-11 Troof cult to thank for doing their worldwide Internet PR campaign for them.

And you'd be right.

[Slayhamlet]

Well, I hope you're right. I know it's not overwhelmingly popular in America, but I've had an Indian tell me it is common knowledge in India, and a Norwegian tell me it is common knowledge in Norway. I've also read that the conspiracy theory is basically the official story to the average Middle Easterner.

Again, I hope I'm wrong, but if anything I think the claims might just be exaggerated, not wholly fabricated. Are there any polls from abroad?

ETA: I think handwaving the Truthers as an unpopular fringe movement is what allowed them to get so big in the first place. Unlike bigfoot or UFOs, etc., I believe that widespread, blind faith in 9/11 Troof is harmful, especially to our image in the world, which doesn't need to be kicked while it's down.

Imagine you're a 17 year old Iraqi getting on the internet for the first time and you Google 9/11. What's this? 9/11 Truth? Click. Oh, maybe those jihadists trying to recruit me the other day were right after all, what was the address of their meeting place again? (the preceding statement was for illustrative purposes only. I'm not saying that situation could or would ever happen exactly as written :).)

Were the Indian and Norwegian twoofers?

[danielk]

I don't have the impression that MIHOP is wide-spread in Germany. However, I think LIHOP beliefs extend far into the mainstream.

[abenja1]

Well I know one body part it doesn't have: a head.

[cisco]

Were the Indian and Norwegian twoofers?

Looking back I would assume so, but I didn't really quiz them about it at the time.

[PhantomWolf]

Imagine you're a 17 year old Iraqi getting on the internet for the first time and you Google 9/11. What's this? 9/11 Truth? Click. Oh, maybe those jihadists trying to recruit me the other day were right after all, what was the address of their meeting place again? (the preceding statement was for illustrative purposes only. I'm not saying that situation could or would ever happen exactly as written :).)

Personally I'd be wondering why the heck the Jihadists were telling me how great a victory it was when they attacked the US on 9/11 and how wonderful the mayters that did it were and how I should be like them, when all these sites claim the US did it themselves, that the Maryters never existed, and that the Jihadist are all working for the CIA.

[Pardalis]

Is Sibel Edmonds considered a truther?

If she is, then I would definitely say the TM has legs... :drool:

[cisco]

I actually saw a comment today on a debunker video that said "FAKE!! its all fake, especialy da thing about the WTC, if u say it wasnt bombs then wat was it?"

This is the kind of thing I wanted to discuss in this thread. This kid has probably never heard another theory besides bombs in the buildings. Like it or not, a lot of members of the Youtube generation are going to grow up never questioning things like Loose Change and 911Truth.org. Since what really happened was immediately obvious to nearly everyone and was soon confirmed by the scientific and academic communities, not a lot of attention has been given to the situation in the last 5 years.

The Troof has done a great job of filling this void with their propaganda. Their marketing is genius. Google or Youtube 9/11 Truth and you'll be inundated with easily digestible video clips and "fact"-filled websites. Do the same to the phrase 9/11 Myths and you get the truth? What kind of sense does that make, especially to a teenager?

What, if anything, do you think will be the final nail in the Troof's coffin?

The NIST report on 7 is due out this summer. I've noticed a lot of Troofers have been backed into the corner of saying "7 is the key", "yeah, but explain 7!!!!", "7 blows the lid off the entire official story!" etc., etc. Will the new report shut them up or will they ignore it like so many of them have ignored so much other evidence?

Will Bush leaving office peacefully to a [presumably Democrat] new president will satiate the troof at all?

[beachnut]

If you make a movie, people will wonder how such a dumb fringe group could exist. Pure stupid ideas will be exposed and people will see the fraud of 9/11 truth. This is a fringe group of idiots. Like NAZIs. Will enough dumb get together to form a critical mass and go super stupid!?

People must learn the internet has information, right and wrong. 9/11 truth believers have, chosen poorly!

They also blame Clinton too. They are all in on it expect Ron Paul. Many of the nuts claimed they voted for Bush.

It has legs and it is wandering aimlessly from stupid idea to moronic ideas. (stolen)

[cisco]

I think apathy on the part of those who knew the real story of the Kennedy assassination is what allowed those conspiracy theories to grow out of control. Handwaving a "fringe minority" as an insignificant group of fools turned them into a majority. I've never discussed JFK with someone who didn't believe the conspiracy. I've sat in whole classrooms - including the professor - of believers. It's "common knowledge" now.

I don't want to see that happen to the Troof.

[The Almond]

I think apathy on the part of those who knew the real story of the Kennedy assassination is what allowed those conspiracy theories to grow out of control. Handwaving a "fringe minority" as an insignificant group of fools turned them into a majority. I've never discussed JFK with someone who didn't believe the conspiracy. I've sat in whole classrooms - including the professor - of believers. It's "common knowledge" now.

I don't want to see that happen to the Troof.

Your OP is interesting. Of the Germans I've talked to, none of them buy into any form of MIHOP (Bombs, Thermite, Space Microwaves), but I've had a hard time convincing them that LIHOP is just as silly. It seems to grow out of basic ignorance and mistrust of the US Government. It's not that mistrust isn't warranted, but most of their mistrust comes from bad information. This 9/11 conspiracy theory just happens to fit nicely within a framework already set up by 100 or so years of American foreign policy.

As for the rest of 9/11 truthers, my experience has largely been that they are disaffected teenagers. It's not surprising that YouTube is the primary source for their information, nor is it surprising that their movement seems only to exist on YouTube. It that instance, you really have to give them a break. I believed some pretty wacky things when I was a kid, too (Nostradamus, etc.). Now that I'm an adult with some critical thinking skills, I've wholeheartedly rejected such claptrap. The same will happen with them, and the group behind them, and so on.

[Gravy]

The 9/11 Truth Movement: Does it have legs?It has a hole between its legs which disgorges a foul effluent.

[Garb]

I blame the Bush Administration in part for creating and fostering an environment in which people are so willing to believe this.

Why?

[cisco]

Why?

Huh? I dunno why. 'Cause they're jaded, money-hungry dicks out of touch with the average American? Your guess is as good as mine, amigo.

[Gazpacho]

If Bush "fosters" people into believing 9/11 troof just by being the god-fearing Texan he is, that's kind of their problem.

[Garb]

Huh? I dunno why. 'Cause they're jaded, money-hungry dicks out of touch with the average American? Your guess is as good as mine, amigo.

You said it as if the Bush admin raised them.

Sure their neglegence and incompetence earned them a spot on the "group of people I'd be the least inclined to vote for again," I would think it is a stretch to blame them for the ignorance of the minority of people.

I blame the teachers.

[cisco]

It's just that I hear a constant stream of:

WMDs!
Patriot Act!
Military Commissions Act of 2006!
Free Speech Zones!
Gitmo!
Torture!
Etc!

out of troofers, and I can only attack the leap in logic that goes from there to USG=9/11. I can't defend the Bush admin from these cries because they are, generally, legitimate complaints.

Anyway, that's not really what I wanted to talk about. Sorry I mentioned it if it offended you, and I'm extra sorry I mentioned it if it keeps derailing the thread.

[danielk]

It isn't about offense, it's about shifting blame. The twoofers have only their own willful ignorance and lack of critical thinking to blame for their false beliefs. Some may be excused because of their youth.

Blaming Bush for 9/11 lies is like blaming black thugs and drug dealers for racism, or wealthy and arrogant Jews for antisemitism. It's disingenuous, to say the least.

[cisco]

I didn't "blame" them. I made an off-hand comment that I blame them in part for giving the troofers so much ammo, and then I reiterated that that isn't what I opened this thread to discuss. If you want to talk about Bush feel free to open a new thread and post a link here. Otherwise please consider my comments stricken.

[MikeyMetz]

It's just that I hear a constant stream of:

WMDs!
Patriot Act!
Military Commissions Act of 2006!
Free Speech Zones!
Gitmo!
Torture!
Etc!

out of troofers, and I can only attack the leap in logic that goes from there to USG=9/11. I can't defend the Bush admin from these cries because they are, generally, legitimate complaints.

Anyway, that's not really what I wanted to talk about. Sorry I mentioned it if it offended you, and I'm extra sorry I mentioned it if it keeps derailing the thread.

As an ex-truther, myself, I have to admit that this is the same logical (or illogical) progression I had gone through. First I saw a documentary called "Uncovered: The Whole Truth about the Iraq War" by Robert Greenwald. I then saw another Greenwald documentary called "Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism." Throw in "Farenheit 9/11" and the missing WMD's, the PATRIOT Act, and the free speech zones, by the time I saw Loose Change I was sold hook, line, and sinker.

As a young 20-something who was just delving into the world of politics for the first time, the 9/11 CTs actually put everything else into perspective (ignoring the science and the actual evidence, of course). It's really easy to fall for a CT that ties all the loose ends together, I guess.

Back to the OP of this thread, I really worry that parts of the CTs will be some form of "common knowledge" in the future. My hope is that the ignorance and arrogance of your average truther will expose the "movement" for the fraud it is, thus limiting its presence in the national (and international) consciousness.

[cisco]

As an ex-truther, myself, I have to admit that this is the same logical (or illogical) progression I had gone through. First I saw a documentary called "Uncovered: The Whole Truth about the Iraq War" by Robert Greenwald. I then saw another Greenwald documentary called "Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism." Throw in "Farenheit 9/11" and the missing WMD's, the PATRIOT Act, and the free speech zones, by the time I saw Loose Change I was sold hook, line, and sinker.

As a young 20-something who was just delving into the world of politics for the first time, the 9/11 CTs actually put everything else into perspective (ignoring the science and the actual evidence, of course). It's really easy to fall for a CT that ties all the loose ends together, I guess.
Yup. Nobody seems to be very concerned but I would bet your story is incredibly common among young Americans and even moreso among young non-Americans.

Back to the OP of this thread, I really worry that parts of the CTs will be some form of "common knowledge" in the future. My hope is that the ignorance and arrogance of your average truther will expose the "movement" for the fraud it is, thus limiting its presence in the national (and international) consciousness.
I worry especially about how irreversibly popular it is in the rest of the world already. Arguing with foreigners about the US was hard enough before the Troof because they tend to think we're all irredeemably jingoistic. I can't imagine trying to convince a young foreigner that I disagree with Bush but don't think our government committed the 9/11 attacks if he already knows the Troof.

Here are some relevant quotes from a recent Telegraph article (I'm not allowed to post urls but go to Google News and enter Counterknowledge. It's the first hit.)
I recently met a Lib Dem-voting schoolteacher who voiced his "doubts" about September 11. First, he grabbed our attention with a plausible-sounding observation: "Look at the way the towers collapsed vertically. Jet fuel wouldn't generate enough to heat to melt steel. Only controlled explosions can do that." The rest of the party, not being structural engineers (for whom there is nothing mysterious about the collapse of the towers) pricked up their ears. "You're right," they said. "It did seem strange…"
How many of "the rest of the party" will look further into it, and how many will just go about their lives with the thought that CD makes sense always in the back of their minds? And what do you think this guy is going to tell his students when 9/11 inevitably comes up in class discussion?
More than a third of Americans suspect that federal officials assisted in the September 11 attacks or took no action to stop them.
MIHOP/LIHOP mixed; it doesn't say how much of either one, but that's a disturbing figure either way.
September 11 conspiracy theories have gained such a following in France that even a member of President Sarkozy's government has suggested that President Bush might have planned the attacks. Christine Boutin, the housing minister, when asked in an interview whether she thought Bush might have been behind the attacks, said: "I think it is possible."
And isn't Sarkozy pro-Bush? What do the Bush-haters think?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran, [...] reckons that September 11 could not have been executed "without co-ordination with [US] intelligence and security services".
Ok, not a very credible guy, but he has a pulpit and someone is listening to him.

This statistic, I think, could be intepreted as evidence that the jihadists are starting to use the Troof to their advantage as propaganda. Thanks, Dylan!
In 2006, the Pew Research Centre asked Muslims in Indonesia, Egypt, Turkey, Jordan and Pakistan whether Arabs carried out the September 11 attacks. The majority of respondents in each country said no.

[CHF]

I know it's not overwhelmingly popular in America, but I've had an Indian tell me it is common knowledge in India, and a Norwegian tell me it is common knowledge in Norway.

One Indian. One Norwegian.

Not exactly a scientific poll, was it?

There's a reason why 9/11 truth rallies draw flies all over the world. I'm sure you can guess why.

[twinstead]

All the world needs is one Norwegian and one Indian to get together. This, my friends, will be the sign of the Apocalypse.

Mark my words

[cisco]

One Indian. One Norwegian.

Not exactly a scientific poll, was it?

There's a reason why 9/11 truth rallies draw flies all over the world. I'm sure you can guess why.

I never claimed it was a scientific poll*. It was my personal experience; should I have not mentioned it?


*although I posted the results of a one in #25 if you're interested.

Edit: Sorry, #26

[CHF]

It was my personal experience; should I have not mentioned it?

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying don't read too much into the statements of a couple twoofers from Norway and India.

As for that poll....

In 2006, the Pew Research Centre asked Muslims in Indonesia, Egypt, Turkey, Jordan and Pakistan whether Arabs carried out the September 11 attacks. The majority of respondents in each country said no.The same poll would probably have blamed it on the Jews because it was all laid out in the Protocals of the Elders of Zion.

The Muslim world is infested with conspiracy beliefs which corresponds nicely with their current levels of education, literacy, creativity and innovation.

Strangely, the prevailing view among Muslims is also that 9/11 happened because of US foreign policy. Go figure!