Worst Parent Ever

[gumboot]

Just to share something of interest...

Herald reports terrible father spotted in Marlborough Sounds (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10486494)

Mr Fisher told The Press newspaper he could see the boy's head in the water because it was calm.

"He was in a very distraught state, slowly going under - it was just terrible."

Mr Fisher saw a boat heading away a couple of kilometres away and caught up with it.

"The guy never even stopped his boat. I said 'are you missing something mate?' He said 'no, what's your problem?'

"He had all these kids onboard and none of them had lifejackets ... he didn't say anything (when the boy was returned), he just drove off."

Un-rule8-believable.

-Gumboot

[Gravy]

Oh, come on: how do you know the kid wasn't even worse?

[danielk]

Oh ****. I hope they find him, and take his children away if necessary to ensure their well-being.

[SezMe]

Un-rule8-believable.
[Nit pick]It's now Rule 10 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=25744)[/Nit Pick]

[BPSCG]

[Nit pick]It's now Rule 10 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=25744)[/Nit Pick]Oh, go [rule eleventy!!!111!!!] yourself. :biggrin:

[Leicontis]

Am I the only one that thinks this sounds like a failed murder attempt by the father? Heck, he could have been out there with the intention of dumping each of the kids overboard.

[John Bentley]

Am I the only one that thinks this sounds like a failed murder attempt by the father? Heck, he could have been out there with the intention of dumping each of the kids overboard.

I don't know if anyone has heard about a local tragedy here where I live. I've heard some reports on the national news, so some of you may know the following:

A few days ago, a man dumped his four children, aged 3 months to I think 3 or 4 years old, off of the Dauphin Island Bridge (80 feet to the water with 5 to 10 MPH currents underneath). The water temperature at the time was around 65 degrees F. He confessed to the crime to police and said he did it to get back at his wife, with whom he had just had an argument. The police had been unable to find the bodies for the past few days, and with advice from his lawyer, the man had recanted his confession and was claiming that he had not killed his children, but rather had given them away to a woman he didn't know. Hope flared in our community, and as each day passed without finding the bodies, the thin hope grew stronger that he had stashed the kids somewhere rather than brutally murdered them.

Today, a duck hunter found the small body of the 3 month old in a marsh about 5 miles from the bridge. We are all devastated. I live just a few miles from the bridge, and I have not allowed my kids to go down to the water each day without scouting the area first.

My children are close to the age range of this man's children. All of the children except the baby were old enough to know exactly what was going on when their father picked them up and tossed them over that rail.

What kind of sick, sorry excuse for a human being could pick up a struggling child and toss them to their death because they were mad at their spouse?

And as a side bar, how can any lawyer defend such a monster, and give advice to recant the confession, hoping no one finds the bodies? (They have tape recordings of the lawyer's consultations with his client in the jail).

[danielk]

And as a side bar, how can any lawyer defend such a monster, and give advice to recant the confession, hoping no one finds the bodies? (They have tape recordings of the lawyer's consultations with his client in the jail).
It's their job to do exactly that. However, personally I couldn't do it either. Um, now that a body has indeed been found, the recanted confession could make things worse for him. But given the scale of the crime I doubt that it matters.

[four elevener]

I'll never understand how anyone could do that to their own children. :(
I hope the guy gets what's coming to him.

[ImaginalDisc]

And as a side bar, how can any lawyer defend such a monster, and give advice to recant the confession, hoping no one finds the bodies? (They have tape recordings of the lawyer's consultations with his client in the jail).

Legally speaking, someone has to. Think of it this way, by providing even scum like that the minimum of of a legal defense, it helps keep them from defending themselves, and makes the trials quicker and smoother.

[The Atheist]

Just to share something of interest...

Herald reports terrible father spotted in Marlborough Sounds (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10486494)

Un-rule8-believable.

-Gumboot

Nothing new there, probably more surprised he didn't punch the other bloke for interfering.

One of a million anecdotes for you:

Standing at traffic lights in Manurewa, I noticed the car at the front of the queue had four kids aged 4-10 with the female driver and not one of the kids had a seat belt on, while the driver was wearing hers. Because all the windows were open, I called out, in a very pleasant voice, "If the car has seat belts, can you get the kids to put them on, please."

"**** you!" was the sole reply as she screeched off when the light turned green.

What kind of sick, sorry excuse for a human being could pick up a struggling child and toss them to their death because they were mad at their spouse?

Ditto - nothing new there. Neither the first nor the last time it will happen. We've had two thrown off the Harbour Bridge some years ago for the same reason and one very recently driving his car off the cliff with kids aboard, hoping to take all of them out. Strange, in both cases, the parent survived. God loves those kids, eh?

Outstanding argument in favour of the death penalty, however.

[Nogbad]

And as a side bar, how can any lawyer defend such a monster, and give advice to recant the confession, hoping no one finds the bodies? (They have tape recordings of the lawyer's consultations with his client in the jail).

The individual is clearly deranged.

With regards lawyers, as someone said, it is their job - the normal position of a defence lawyer is "my client is innocent your honour"

Surely taping the lawyer and his client is against the rules and will seriously impact on the trial?

[mummymonkey]

And as a side bar, how can any lawyer defend such a monster, ... A strong defence makes any conviction more sound.

[Beerina]

Curiously, Yahweh stood by and let it happen, praise be his kind and benevolent name.

[fuelair]

Nothing new there, probably more surprised he didn't punch the other bloke for interfering.

One of a million anecdotes for you:

Standing at traffic lights in Manurewa, I noticed the car at the front of the queue had four kids aged 4-10 with the female driver and not one of the kids had a seat belt on, while the driver was wearing hers. Because all the windows were open, I called out, in a very pleasant voice, "If the car has seat belts, can you get the kids to put them on, please."

"**** you!" was the sole reply as she screeched off when the light turned green.



Ditto - nothing new there. Neither the first nor the last time it will happen. We've had two thrown off the Harbour Bridge some years ago for the same reason and one very recently driving his car off the cliff with kids aboard, hoping to take all of them out. Strange, in both cases, the parent survived. God loves those kids, eh?

Outstanding argument in favour of the death penalty, however.

Something a bit more educational would be my preference, but I am prejudiced somewhat against harming children..

[articulett]

The guy who threw the kids of the bridge was a drug addict:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/crack-addict-father-tosses-children-off-bridge/2008/01/10/1199554774828.html

There was another woman who killed her daughters thinking they were possessed.

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5jhNbLMEFpu8qNOBWCvm61MQfdINA
http://www.examiner.com/a-1151824~Banita_Jacks_case__D_C__assumed_family_mov ed_away.html

And more:
http://www.modbee.com/2033/story/177809.html
http://www.outpostforhope.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=126&Itemid=1

Some people should not have children.

[qayak]

Some people should not have children.

The trouble is that it is impossible to tell who is going to kill their kids. We usually find out AFTER the kids have been killed. It's the price you pay for having governments out of your life.

You can force people to get training before they have children but that doesn't guarantee they will not kill their kids under extreme stress. All it does is penalize everyone just so the government can appear to be addressing the problem.

[John Bentley]

The individual is clearly deranged.

With regards lawyers, as someone said, it is their job - the normal position of a defence lawyer is "my client is innocent your honour"

Surely taping the lawyer and his client is against the rules and will seriously impact on the trial?

I'm not sure about the circumstances surrounding the taping. But they played portions of the tape on the 10:00 news.

I realize that even scumbags have a right to a vigorous defense. However, there is a big difference in my mind between the defense attorney defending his client's legal rights and the defense attorney trying to get a monster off by advising him to alter his statments to the police and hoping no evidence to the contrary floats up.

I also realize that stuff like this happens fairly frequently. However, this particular event took place only a few miles from my home. That makes it easier to personalize it, because I'm still having to police the beach out front before the kids get to come outside (they still haven't found the other 3 kids). Tears come to my eyes every time I scan that beach. I'm not sure why, as I'm generally not an emotional person.

The autopsy on the 3 month old showed that it survived the fall from the bridge long enough to drown. The monster who did this horrible thing has called the mother of the children from jail and told her to keep looking for the other 3 kids because they are all in the water. What an advertisement for the death penalty!

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Am I the only one that thinks this sounds like a failed murder attempt by the father? Heck, he could have been out there with the intention of dumping each of the kids overboard.

You're not the only one. This has "homicide attempt" all over it.

It sounds way too delibrate to be attributed to carelessness or even negligence. Even the most incompetent parent wouldn't react like that to an accident.

[articulett]

I don't know if the death penalty fixes anything. The mother is destroyed.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/13/bridge.deaths.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

She was only 23. Her life is destroyed, and she's 23. How can you get over that? All of the cases I linked involved people who'd had kids as teens-- and multiple kids and step parents too. Stuff like this makes me a strong advocate of family planning, birth control, and scientifically based sex education. I cannot bear the thought of losing a child. But I also cannot imagine what it would be like to be a 23 year old with 4 babies relying on a drug addict for the wellbeing of my offspring.

I wonder if punishment deters these kinds of tragedies? I suspect education and family planning do a lot more. What could possibly make it better for the mother? She says that he wished he would have killed her instead. I bet most mothers feel similarly.

[articulett]

You're not the only one. This has "homicide attempt" all over it.

It sounds way too delibrate to be attributed to carelessness or even negligence. Even the most incompetent parent wouldn't react like that to an accident.

I don't think so either. Or maybe they would if they were really ashamed and embarrassed... but even still... I can't imagine it. I hope they don't put the kid back in the home. My mom found a toddler wandering in the desert when I was young and she drove it to the nearest neighborhood asking around until she found the owner... and the owner seemed more peeved than relieved. I think I would have been in tears just to imagine what could have happened as well as falling all over myself in gratitude should that have happened to me. I can't think of something other than him trying to kill his kid and make it look like an accident for the facts as they are laid out in the story. I wonder what the other kids will have to say, and I wonder if it was planned... and what kind of dad takes kids out in a boat without a life jacket? I wonder what the mother will have to say?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I don't think so either. Or maybe they would if they were really ashamed and embarrassed... but even still... I can't imagine it. I hope they don't put the kid back in the home. My mom found a toddler wandering in the desert when I was young and she drove it to the nearest neighborhood asking around until she found the owner... and the owner seemed more peeved than relieved. I think I would have been in tears just to imagine what could have happened as well as falling all over myself in gratitude should that have happened to me. I can't think of something other than him trying to kill his kid and make it look like an accident for the facts as they are laid out in the story. I wonder what the other kids will have to say, and I wonder if it was planned... and what kind of dad takes kids out in a boat without a life jacket? I wonder what the mother will have to say?

I know. If it was any child, let alone mine, had nearly died while under my supervision and was rescued and brought back to me safe and sound, I'd be practically kissing the hero. If I hadn't noticed the child had fallen off, I'd be shocked and wouldn't stop blaming myself and if I had noticed, I'd already be frantically searching.

I can imagine someone being embarrassed and afraid of being charged with negligence and speeding off as quickly as possible or even being hostile to the rescuer but acting like the rescuer had returned something one lost on purpose?

[The Atheist]

You're not the only one. This has "homicide attempt" all over it.

It sounds way too delibrate to be attributed to carelessness or even negligence. Even the most incompetent parent wouldn't react like that to an accident.

Nope. In fact, the original story is a little in question.

Updated story (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/metro/story.cfm?l_id=153&objectid=10486526)

[John Bentley]

Nope. In fact, the original story is a little in question.

Updated story (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/metro/story.cfm?l_id=153&objectid=10486526)

Sounds like the updated story relies on the father's self serving description of events. He has a strong motivation to lie. What motivation would the rescuing fisherman have to lie? Sounds like a murder attempt to me, also. Jeez, what is the world coming to? Is this sort of thing more common, or just reported more?

Does NZ have no laws on the wearing of life jackets for children? I mean, NZ is way more of a nanny state than the U.S., so I would have expected much more governmental regulation on boating. Alabama has very strict laws about life jackets. If this sort of thing had happened here, the father would at least have been charged, and probably jailed. Child endangerment charges would certainly have been filed, and the family placed under scrutiny by Family Services.

[gumboot]

Sounds to me like a moron of a father lost a kid without noticing and was pissed off at being caught over it, and is playing the "grateful parent" role after the fact.

His claim that he didn't notice his son come out of the cabin because he was "sharpening a knife" is absurd. If he was sharpening his knife, who was driving the boat? And was he so incompetent a parent that he didn't notice all of the children on the deck? (The boatie who delivered the boy reported that there were a number of children on the boat, so obviously they weren't in the cabin at all).

Dunno if I'd go as far as to say it's a thwarted murder attempt (although I have to admit that was my first impression) but I don't believe the father's version of events for a second.

[The Atheist]

Does NZ have no laws on the wearing of life jackets for children? I mean, NZ is way more of a nanny state than the U.S., so I would have expected much more governmental regulation on boating. Alabama has very strict laws about life jackets. If this sort of thing had happened here, the father would at least have been charged, and probably jailed. Child endangerment charges would certainly have been filed, and the family placed under scrutiny by Family Services.

Lifejacket laws are a stupid and twisted mess, subject to local authority control, but unlike local authorities in USA, which have their own police forces, the ones here don't, so they have few teeth and I don't know what the rules are in Marlborough. That he wasn't charged suggests there's no illegality involved.

Sounds to me like a moron of a father lost a kid without noticing and was pissed off at being caught over it, and is playing the "grateful parent" role after the fact.

His claim that he didn't notice his son come out of the cabin because he was "sharpening a knife" is absurd. If he was sharpening his knife, who was driving the boat? And was he so incompetent a parent that he didn't notice all of the children on the deck? (The boatie who delivered the boy reported that there were a number of children on the boat, so obviously they weren't in the cabin at all).

Dunno if I'd go as far as to say it's a thwarted murder attempt (although I have to admit that was my first impression) but I don't believe the father's version of events for a second.

Yep, I reckon that's bang on the money - the bloke who rescued the kid had no reason to lie about it.

[sophia8]

I don't know if the death penalty fixes anything. The mother is destroyed.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/13/bridge.deaths.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

She was only 23. Her life is destroyed, and she's 23. How can you get over that? All of the cases I linked involved people who'd had kids as teens-- and multiple kids and step parents too. Stuff like this makes me a strong advocate of family planning, birth control, and scientifically based sex education. I cannot bear the thought of losing a child. But I also cannot imagine what it would be like to be a 23 year old with 4 babies relying on a drug addict for the wellbeing of my offspring.

I wonder if punishment deters these kinds of tragedies? I suspect education and family planning do a lot more. What could possibly make it better for the mother? She says that he wished he would have killed her instead. I bet most mothers feel similarly.
There are also many mature, educated adults who murder their "imperfect" kids, like the mother of Katie McCarron (http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/?p=380)

[gumboot]

As far as I know the carrying of life jackets and such forth in New Zealand is only compulsory on certain vessels such as commercial ships. I don't think that includes recreational vessels.

[petra10]

I will never understand how an adult can in any way hurt a child.
Every time I hear stories like these it breaks my heart.I have a very strong urge to protect and look after children as I am sure most people do.

What is it that is inside humans that enables someone to physically do these things.

This kind of thing only enforces my view that there is no god.How could a supieror being sit back and watch these acts and not stop them.Is he not powerful enough? Or is it part of god's plan.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

For what it's worth, my parents once took me on a boat race when I was 17 and the captain, their friend, had his two sons, aged 16 and 12 at the time, on board and another 16-year-old girl who was the daughter of a friend. The captain, needless to say, treated all us kids as if he were transporting eggshells, even with 6 adults on board. We weren't made to wear life jackets all the time but in many situations, such as when pulling into port and it was a tough landing, we were.

Even if it wasn't against the rules, I can't imagine a captain letting kids wander around on deck unsupervised and without a lifejacket. Accidents always happen but that's the kind of accident that doesn't happen around any captain I know.

[The Atheist]

As far as I know the carrying of life jackets and such forth in New Zealand is only compulsory on certain vessels such as commercial ships. I don't think that includes recreational vessels.

Pretty sure it is within the confines of the Harbour Board/s - I'll have to go check.

[John Bentley]

They found another one of the children that was thrown off the bridge. It was the three year old boy. That boy was old enough to know exactly what his father was doing and probably kicked, screamed, and pleaded with dear old dad as he picked him up and tossed him over. The DA is going for the death penalty.

The psychologists are already out in force in the news. Plenty of sympathetic psychobabble. "Oh that poor man. His life must have been so hard to be driven to such an act." All of them trying to explain that he's no different than anyone else, how his circumstances drove him to it, how this act seemed perfectly reasonable from his point of view. Makes me sick.

[Madalch]

They found another one of the children that was thrown off the bridge. It was the three year old boy. That boy was old enough to know exactly what his father was doing and probably kicked, screamed, and pleaded with dear old dad as he picked him up and tossed him over. The DA is going for the death penalty.

Good.

I have a pair of three-year-old boys. I admit that there were times when throwing one of them might have seemed reasonable to my sleep-deprived mind, anyone who can actually do that sort of thing has no place in any society.

[John Bentley]

Good.

I have a pair of three-year-old boys. I admit that there were times when throwing one of them might have seemed reasonable to my sleep-deprived mind, anyone who can actually do that sort of thing has no place in any society.

Searchers found another body today. Only one more child to be found, and I am confident that will happen very soon. Hundreds of searchers out there in boats, helis, and slogging through the marshes.

I hear you about your kids. Read the second line in my sig.

[Fnord]

Q1) "How can any lawyer defend such a monster?"

The defense would likely claim the defendent was "Not Mentally Competent" when he murdered his kids.

But lawyers are there not just to get their clients off the hook, but to make certain that his client's rights are protected while procedings advance to a just conclusion.

Q2) "How can any lawyer give advice to recant the confession, hoping no one finds the bodies?"

A lawyer once advised my entire high-school Social Studies class, "Deny everything, even when caught in the act, so that those who would prosecute you are forced to earn their pay."

I think ol' Willy Shakespeare was right* about a lot of lawyers - certainly some, but not all.

(* - "Henry VI", Act IV, Scene 2)

[dudalb]

I would say Medea is right up there.