Girl Wants To Start Caucasian Club At High School

[Tony]

http://www.nbc4.tv/education/2493104/detail.html

OAKLEY, Calif. -- Lisa McClelland says she isn't a racist. She says her campaign for a Caucasian Club at her California high school is a move toward diversity, not bigotry.

Its no surprise that a member of the black KKK is opposed, equal rights for everyone (except whitie of course:rolleyes: )

[Lord Kenneth]

If they allow clubs concerning other races, I see no problem, none whatsoever, with caucasian club.

[Checkmite]

I agree. If groups as patently frivolous as "bible clubs" are allowed to be formed on school grounds, equally frivolous groups like "caucasians clubs" should be allowed to be as well.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
I agree. If groups as patently frivolous as "bible clubs" are allowed to be formed on school grounds, equally frivolous groups like "caucasians clubs" should be allowed to be as well.

Its no more frivolous than a "black club" or an "asian club".

[arcticpenguin]

One person who won't be signing up is Darnell Turner, first vice president of the local chapter of the NAACP. Turner says he thinks the club will create racial tension.
:i: :id:

[plindboe]

I can't see the problem either since there are black clubs too. I seem to recall some right winged nut making a post some months ago complaining about one of those black clubs. Hmm, who was it again?

[Silicon]

What do they do at the White club?

Eat mayonnaise sandwiches and watch documentaries on the history of plaid?


Complain about how Eddie Murphy stole the comedy antics of the great Jerry Lewis, just to make The Nutty Professor "acceptable" to black audiences?


;)



This whole thing reminds me of my favorite racial group comeback:


"How come they don't have a National Association for the Advancement of White People?!!"


"They do. It's called the U.S. Senate!"

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by Tony


Its no more frivolous than a "black club" or an "asian club".

Don't be an idiot.

The issue with these clubs is that the minority clubs typically form as support groups for minority members of society, whereas "white" clubs typically form as hate groups.

Now, that is not always the case, but this country has a 150 year history of that being predominately the case which is why there is concern about this issue.

I personally see no need for a "white" club. What is the purpose of such a club? Why does she want to form it?

In a school where there may be 5 or 10 Asians out of 500 or 1,000 students, yes I can certianly understand an Asian club, or even in a school with lots of people of that ethic group I can understand it if the club focuses on education about that ethnic group because most schooll history focuses on Westen history, for a variety fo reasons, so if people want to get together to learn about their etnic group then thats fine.

I can't really see what a "white" club is supposed to be about...

[Tony]

Originally posted by Malachi151


Don't be an idiot.

The issue with these clubs is that the minority clubs typically form as support groups for minority members of society, whereas "white" clubs typically form as hate groups.

Now, that is not always the case, but this country has a 150 year history of that being predominately the case which is why there is concern about this issue.

I personally see no need for a "white" club. What is the purpose of such a club? Why does she want to form it?

In a schol where there may be 5 or 10 Asians out of 500 or 1,000 students, yes I can certianly understand an Asian club, or even ina school with lots of people of that ethic group I can understand it if the club focuses on education about that ethnic group because most schooll history focuses on Westen history, for a variety fo reasons, so if people want to get together to learn about their etnic group then thats fine.

I can't really see what a "white" club is supposed to be about...

As usual, malachi is full of $hit.

[Silicon]

Originally posted by Tony


As usual, malachi is full of $hit.



Ah, tony, what a thoughtful reply.

You quote his ENTIRE post, just to launch the lamest Ad Hom I can think possible.

What a rapier wit you have.

No, wait. Rapier is too sharp a thing. What's a word that means "dull, pointless and lacking any edge at all?"




You have the wit of a sea sponge.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Silicon




Ah, tony, what a thoughtful reply.

You quote his ENTIRE post, just to launch the lamest Ad Hom I can think possible.

What a rapier wit you have.

No, wait. Rapier is too sharp a thing. What's a word that means "dull, pointless and lacking any edge at all?"




You have the wit of a sea sponge.


In that case we may in fact be intellectual equals.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Malachi151

Don't be an idiot.

The issue with these clubs is that the minority clubs typically form as support groups for minority members of society, whereas "white" clubs typically form as hate groups.

Since the high school in question is in California, what makes you so sure whites there are not a minority? The article does not report on that.

And what does "typically" have to do with it?


OAKLEY, Calif. -- Lisa McClelland says she isn't a racist. She says her campaign for a Caucasian Club at her California high school is a move toward diversity, not bigotry.

She says everyone is invited -- and nobody will be excluded.
She claims her intent is not to start a racist or hate group, are you going to assume otherwise just because she is white? If you want to see the racist, just look in the mirror.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Tony


Its no more frivolous than a "black club" or an "asian club".

Point being? Frivolous is frivolous. Trying to excuse frivolity on the basis of precedent is an act of desperation and an unwitting admission of the pointlessness of the defended idea.

As an aside, I've only been out of school for about 5 years...but I'm trying very, very hard to remember if there were any "black clubs" in my 70% black high school. So far I'm coming up blank.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Point being? Frivolous is frivolous. Trying to excuse frivolity on the basis of precedent is an act of desperation and an unwitting admission of the pointlessness of the defended idea.


I was just pointing out that you singled out "white" and "bible" groups. My point was, ultimatly, they are all frivolous.

As an aside, I've only been out of school for about 5 years...but I'm trying very, very hard to remember if there were any "black clubs" in my 70% black high school. So far I'm coming up blank.

I guess we graduated the same year (99?). I dont remember any racial student club in my 80% white school (i guess i'll have to look at the year book to be sure :) ).

[Ed]

Originally posted by Malachi151


I personally see no need for a "white" club. What is the purpose of such a club? Why does she want to form it?

I can't really see what a "white" club is supposed to be about...

None of this is relevant. She should have every opportunity to form her club. She should get whatever support other clubs get from the powers that be.

Incidentially, Malachi, you came out pretty strongly against diversity on the African subcontinent in another thread. I asked whether your position held here (in the US). Any response?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Tony


I was just pointing out that you singled out "white" and "bible" groups. My point was, ultimatly, they are all frivolous.

Then why didn't you correct Kenneth when he singled out other "race" groups?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


Then why didn't you correct Kenneth when he singled out other "race" groups?

He didnt single out any race groups.

[Clancie]

Well, race is a very outmoded concept, scientifically speaking. But if she wants to organize a club based on being "Caucasian", I hope she understands she'll have to include "Latinos".

That may put a damper on her plan, especially if she's at one of many California schools where there is a very large Latino population.

[Tricky]

I graduated as the only white student in a high school of about 700. (The others were all black). Had there been a few other white students there, I probably would have considered joining a group to talk about how better to make ourselves part of the larger group. There were no "black" clubs in the school, because all of the clubs (except the few that I was in) were black, so there was no need.

Forming a "white" group at a school that is primarily white is pointless, unless the point is to show your discrimination against other races. You cannot argue that you are "left out" of other groups.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Tony


He didnt single out any race groups.

Neither did I single out any religious groups (there were two different bible clubs in my school). Kenneth picked an example (race clubs); so did I (bible clubs). They're all equally frivolous; my example for some reason needed correction. I simply found it odd, that's all.

[Tmy]

Tony,

Nobody cares if soemone starts a german club, or irish club or russian club whatever. But when you say "white club" the implication is that its an exclusinary group to minorities. A comparable group would be the "brown/yellow/red people club" cause its purpose would be to keep whites away.

[American]

Originally posted by Malachi151

I personally see no need for a "white" club. What is the purpose of such a club? Why does she want to form it?


She doesn't need a reason. Freedom os Assembly is in the Constitution.

You still have a right to pick and choose your own friends and to meet with them, that is unless liberals have their way with forced integration and affirmatve action.

[Silicon]

Originally posted by American



She doesn't need a reason. Freedom os Assembly is in the Constitution.



The Bill of Rights don't extend to children on a school campus.

The First Amendment, for instance, doesn't extend to children in school.

We found that out when prior restraint was used against us by the principal who didn't like an article that was to run in the school newspaper.

(Edited: Clarification. I wasn't a party to Hazelwood. I had a similar censorship by a principal Post-hazelwood at my high-school.)


In my racially diverse Los Angeles high school, there weren't race clubs per-se. There was a predominantly "black" club called "Young Gifted and Proud" that anyone could join. Notice that they didn't call it "Young, Gifted and Black" after Lorraine Hansberry's book.

There was also the Key Club that was sponsored by Kiwanis. That was primarily Asian, mostly because of the high academic standards required, but also because there was kind of a cliquish thing going on. Ironically the Kiwanis organization was known for an anti African-American discrimination scandal about this same time.

Then there was a multi-racial club called the "Student Advisory Council for Student Integration.". That was a club designed to bridge racial divisions across the campus. The organized the annual retreat where about 100 students from different backgrounds workshopped issues of cliques and stereotypes.

We didn't have race-fights in our school, although several of the Junior high schools that fed into our high school did during those same years. I credit the hard work that was put into these programs.

Oh, and most schools require that ANY club have a faculty sponsor. That's how they keep from having so many crazy clubs like a Satanist club or a KKK klub.

If she can't get a faculty sponsor, she can't meet her club. If she can, it's up to the sponsor to keep it from being a racist club.

Most clubs have rules for electing a president. If I were a black kid at that school, and that club was being racist, I'd just have all the other black kids who agreed JOIN the club and vote a new president!

[KelvinG]

If this girl wants to form a "white" or "Caucasian" club then more power to her.

But one must really wonder what her motives are. Does she really feel such a club is needed or is just trying to make a point.

It reminds me of a time when I was in university and the student council had a general meeting. They set up an open mike for students to ask questions. A male student walked up to the mike and said "We want to be granted the right to start a men's center on campus since there already is a women's center" (like many colleges and universities we had a women's center that dealt with feminist and gender related issues.)
The president of the women's center fielded the question by replying "I think that's a great idea. I encourage you to start such an organization."
The guy who asked the question was momentarily stunned. He looked around, tried to think of something to say, uttered a quick "thank you" and tore away from the mike.

Obviously this student had no intentions of starting a men's center. He just wanted to be a sh*t disturber. He expected the president of the women's center to be defensive and possibly angry. When she wasn't, the guy's plan was destroyed.

It is possible the intentions of this student who wants to start a "white" club are legitimate. But why do I get the feeling it's more likely she just want to be a sh*t disturber as well!

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by Silicon



The Bill of Rights don't extend to children on a school campus.

The First Amendment, for instance, doesn't extend to children in school.



Evidence? I can't find any exception clause in the constitution.

Yes, yes children DO have free speech in PUBLIC schools, just like people have free speech in courtrooms, outside in the general public, etc...

[American]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth
Evidence? I can't find any exception clause in the constitution.

Yes, yes children DO have free speech in PUBLIC schools, just like people have free speech in courtrooms, outside in the general public, etc...


I believe Silicon is right. However, there are many 18-year olds in high school, and they are afforded full rights, so in theory my point would apply to them at least.

In the same vein of thought, did you ever know that detentions are illegal? It's a form of wrongful imprisonment and kidnapping. Suspensions, however, are legal... so I don't know which is worse to accept. I never had one of either, so I couldn't tell ya!

[Clancie]

I don't know anything about this group or their sources, but here's an interesting position paper about minors and free speech rights in school from a group called "Americans for a Society Free From Age Restrictions":


...It is clear from both the Constitution and Supreme Court precedent that the First Amendment applies to all citizens, regardless of age.

In Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District (1969), the Court held that students, who were underage, did not forfeit their First Amendment rights during attendance at a public school.

Indeed, the court held that under the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment and the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, that the students had the right to wear armbands in protest of the Vietnam War, because they were not disruptive, and did not infringe upon the rights of other individuals.

Public school officials are only allowed to limit expression when it infringes upon the educational process.

In West Virginia State Board Of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943), the Court acknowledged the right of Jehovah's Witnesses to refuse to salute the flag, and invalidated the expulsion of several students. In the majority decision the Court held that:

"The Fourteenth Amendment, as now applied to the States, protects the citizen against the State itself and all of its creatures-Boards of Education not excepted. These have, of course, important, delicate, and highly discretionary functions, but none that they may not perform within the limits of the Bill of Rights.

That they are educating the young for citizenship is reason for scrupulous protection of Constitutional freedoms of the individual, if we are not to strangle the free mind at its source and teach youth to discount important principles of our government as mere platitudes."

While it is true that there are numerous cases limiting the application of the first amendment to young people, it is important to realize that the Constitution itself does not restrict the application of the First Amendment to those citizens over a certain age.

Indeed, it is the spirit of the Constitution that the First Amendment applies to all citizens, regardless of age.
http://www.asfar.org/papers/freespeech.php

[American]

Originally posted by Clancie
I don't know anything about this group or their sources, but here's an interesting position paper about minors and free speech rights in school from a group called "Americans for a Society Free From Age Restrictions":

http://www.asfar.org/papers/freespeech.php


I agree with the view in principle. In practice, it usually doesn't work out that way.

The key is-- most 18-year olds (and younger for that matter) don't have the nuts to assert their rights. Principal threatens them or does something illegal, they will usually comply with him and not understand that they could get a lawyer and nail the school for thousands, potentially. Sometimes parents will take up the case... so teachers are scared stiff these days. (Which I have no problem with, generally.)

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Tricky
I graduated as the only white student in a high school of about 700. (The others were all black). Had there been a few other white students there, I probably would have considered joining a group to talk about how better to make ourselves part of the larger group. There were no "black" clubs in the school, because all of the clubs (except the few that I was in) were black, so there was no need.

Forming a "white" group at a school that is primarily white is pointless, unless the point is to show your discrimination against other races. You cannot argue that you are "left out" of other groups.

In my 8th grade class, there were two white students, both of us male. We got into a fight over a ping-ping game during gym class.

Had there been other white students who weren't ping pong cheaters, it might have been nice to have a club.

[Luke T.]

McClelland's ethnic background includes American Indian, Hispanic, Dutch, German, Italian and Irish.

White racists would not consider her one of their own. She is the very antithesis of what they are about.

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by Malachi151


I personally see no need for a "white" club. What is the purpose of such a club? Why does she want to form it?


I agree. In UK there is a Gay Birders Club. I mean,....why?

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Malachi151


Don't be an idiot.

The issue with these clubs is that the minority clubs typically form as support groups for minority members of society, whereas "white" clubs typically form as hate groups.



I think you are being a little naive, Malachi. Ever talk a look at the Black Entertainment Television (BET.COM) forum?

Some samples:


White americans are [censored] hairy ugly weak and stupid animals that must be slaughtered. Worse than [censored] koreans...


Im not black my friend. Im japanese but I will ally myself to any enemy of white america. Their enemy is my ally.


Honky's must go they are Pink and they all look a like and smell like Dogs.


Why o why o little [censored] honky why o why. So know i see why you raped every group of Woman you ever came in contac with because of your little pink [censored] and that is the one thing you have always been jealous of the Black Man about you little pink [censored] [censored]


HEAR WE GO AGAIN A [censored] TAKEING UP FOR A HONKY HOW SAD WE RALLY NEED TO GET RED OF ALL HOUSE ******.

From
this topic. (http://betboards.bet.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB67&Number=967076&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)


Half the posts on these boards are either openly racist against Whites or trying to blame them for everything wrong with the world, and there's only 2 or 3 White racists that I know of, and then people come on here and say it's the White racists causing all the problems. This hardly strikes me as a fair view of things.

From this topic. (http://betboards.bet.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB67&Number=1019317&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

Plenty more where that came from. There is as much racism within minorities as there are in white groups. I don't have that much confidence that minority clubs are all about peace and harmony between the races. I think they feed each other's fears, myths and prejudices as much as anything else.

Exclusiveness doesn't breed any good, in my opinion.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Tony


As usual, malachi is full of $hit.

As usual, you demonstrate your inability to address a relevant point.

[UserGoogol]

She doesn't need a reason. Freedom of Assembly is in the Constitution.

Ah, yes, but "school clubs" are, by their own nature, endorsed by the school, at least up to a small degree, and that introduces a whole different kettle of fish. It all depends on how clubs are run at this school, I suppose.

Either way, having a "caucasian" club is stupid. The word "caucasian" refers to race, and race alone. (Well, it also means of or pertaining to the Caucaus Mountains, but that's not how it's being used here.) Having "Asian" or even "Black" clubs are alright, because those words can be used to describe the cultures of a certian group of people. (People who live in Asia and Africa, or more often People who live in Eastern Asia and the descendents of American Slaves.) But "caucasian cultures" isn't correct. They're called "European Cultures."

I see no particular problem in having a "European" culture club.

[Silicon]

Originally posted by Lord Kenneth



Evidence? I can't find any exception clause in the constitution.


Lord Kenneth,

The exceptions to the Constitution don't generally come IN the Constitiution itself.

You have to look at Supreme Court decisions to find them.

Here's the evidence, Kenneth. And it's pretty enlightening about the current issue too:

Hazelwood School Dist. v. Kuhlmeier (1988)

The case was about a school newspaper that wanted to run an article about teen pregnancy and birth control. The article, and the entire issue was blocked from publication by the principal, in an act of prior restraint.


. (a) First Amendment rights of students in the public schools are not automatically coextensive with the rights of adults in other settings, and must be applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment. A school need not tolerate student speech that is inconsistent with its basic educational mission, even though the government could not censor similar speech outside the school. (b) The school newspaper here cannot be characterized as a forum for public expression. School facilities may be deemed to be public forums [p*261] only if school authorities have, by policy or by practice, opened the facilities for indiscriminate use by the general public, or by some segment of the public, such as student organizations. If the facilities have instead been reserved for other intended purposes, communicative or otherwise, then no public forum has been created, and school officials may impose reasonable restrictions on the speech of students, teachers, and other members of the school community.

[Cain]

If existence of white clubs will put an end to ****** threads like this one on forums across the world, then I'm emphatically in favor. While we're at it let's start the "White Entertainment Network" (no, not NBC; this is completely new) so that nimrods will stop yammering about BET.

Jesus Christ.

[Some Friggin Guy]

UserGoogal has a point. A school club is, by its nature, sponsored by the school.

Case in point: My high-school had a martial arts club. I was a member of said club. Our faculty adviser left the school and no one else had the desire to take over, thus, we lost our club status. When that happened, we tried to continue on our own. We were all strictly in it for the enjoyment of it, mind you.

So, after our first "unofficial" meeting in the gym, we thought we were okay.

The next morning, we were all called down to the principal's office and informed that we were no longer an officially sanctioned club and meeting on school property would, therefor be prohibited. Any attempt to do so would be considered "gang activity."

Total nonsense, to be sure, but the fact that we were not recognized by the school allowed him to do that.

[Dancing David]

BFD,
This is the price we pay for diversity and free speech, you can have an italian club, a french club or a gaelic club.

But the main question is the

The NCAAP allows for White People to Become Members! And any group should have to allow any one to join thier high scholl club as long as they are not disruptive. If black clubs allow white people to attend and white clubs allow black people to attend, there is no issue.

But if someone started a 'german club' where you had to prove german ancestry, that would be a problem.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Clancie
Well, race is a very outmoded concept, scientifically speaking. But if she wants to organize a club based on being "Caucasian", I hope she understands she'll have to include "Latinos".

That may put a damper on her plan, especially if she's at one of many California schools where there is a very large Latino population.

Screw that. They should let her form her club. And then the Latinos and blacks should try to be members.

If, as she insists, she is not doing it for racist reasons, then it shouldn't be a problem...

I'll wait for her to say "You can't join my club because you are black."

(note: as Dancing David notes, white people are allowed to join the NAACP)

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by KelvinG
It reminds me of a time when I was in university and the student council had a general meeting. They set up an open mike for students to ask questions. A male student walked up to the mike and said "We want to be granted the right to start a men's center on campus since there already is a women's center" (like many colleges and universities we had a women's center that dealt with feminist and gender related issues.)
The president of the women's center fielded the question by replying "I think that's a great idea. I encourage you to start such an organization."
The guy who asked the question was momentarily stunned. He looked around, tried to think of something to say, uttered a quick "thank you" and tore away from the mike.

Obviously this student had no intentions of starting a men's center. He just wanted to be a sh*t disturber. He expected the president of the women's center to be defensive and possibly angry. When she wasn't, the guy's plan was destroyed.

It is possible the intentions of this student who wants to start a "white" club are legitimate. But why do I get the feeling it's more likely she just want to be a sh*t disturber as well!

Exactly my thoughts as well.

BTW, kids can't start any club they want as an official school club, they all require some kind of standards and a purpose in order to be deemed worthy of using school facilities, at least that's how it was when I was in school.

Let's be real, clubs are things that are formed for small sub-groups that have a common interest.

If the girl belongs to a school where white kids are a minority then fine, let her have a white club if there is some point to the club.

What common interest is there in being Caucasian?

I just can't fathom why a girl would think "I want a club for white people" other then the reason of simply wanting a club that was exclusive and didn't want other minorities joning it. What the hell is a white people club going to do?

I think you are being a little naive, Malachi. Ever talk a look at the Black Entertainment Television (BET.COM) forum?

Actually I did post there for a while when we were discussing race and IQ here.

There are idiots and racists in every group, so what? Because there are black idiots and racists does not mean I have to accept white idiots and racists.

And yes I do accept black idiots and racists more than white ones because blacks are the ones coming from the position of havng been excluded and descriminated against.

I am 100% confident that environment, not genetics is the cause of the vast majority of behavioral differences among people. This means that the majority of behavioral racial qualities that can be measured and associated with a race are not really a genetic product of that race, but instead a social product of thier culture and environment.

Blacks rank lower than whites in IQ in America. Yet black Americans rank higher than black Africans.

Its not a genetic issue, its a cultural issue. The racial differences and tensions around the world are all man made problems that don't have to exist. The way to solve those problems is for those who are doing better to help those that are doing more poorly. I do not expect the people who are doing more poorly to be as capable as those who are doing better.

So yes, I do expect more from "white people" in America than I do from minorities and I am fully aware that that some minorities get away with attitudes that are not acceptable for whites to have, and I accept that and have no problems with it.

Is my POV condesending? Yes it is, but its just realistic.

[Zep]

Considering that the Caucusus are a major mountain range in the Asian part of Russia, Georgia and that area (see here (http://www.pilgrimtours.org/eng/tours/caucas.htm), for example), it would seem highly unlikely that the lady forming the club would herself be eligible to join on an ethnic basis.

In fact, it would be highly unlikely that ANY American citizen would be eligible.

In other words, it's a silly concept.

What if they had a Caucasian Club and no-one came... :)

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Malachi151
If the girl belongs to a school where white kids are a minority then fine, let her have a white club if there is some point to the club.

What common interest is there in being Caucasian?

I just can't fathom why a girl would think "I want a club for white people" other then the reason of simply wanting a club that was exclusive and didn't want other minorities joning it. What the hell is a white people club going to do?



A very important point. Now that we've all agreed that such a club should be allowed to be formed in principle, we can get to this, the deeper and more pressing issue (in my opinion, and yours as well apparently). The news article has failed us here; it failed to address key questions for the purpose of appearing "fair". But the questions are still key. What is the purpose of the club? Was is the mission statement? Is it just a club where white people hang out simply by virtue of the fact that they're white? Why do you need a "club" for such a purpose?

I've discussed this with many people since this topic appeared here. There is a great number of people whom, when asked "What's the merit behind a "caucasians only club", make the reply that "If other races are allowed to have clubs, so should white people". That's true, of course - but as I mentioned above, it's also an admission that the club really is, for all intents and purposes, worthless - or pointless at the very least. As I said, when you argue for an idea from precedent, rather than on the idea's merits, your idea probably sucks - and there is a good chance that, yes, you are a "sh*t-stirrer".

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Zep
Considering that the Caucusus are a major mountain range in the Asian part of Russia, Georgia and that area (see here (http://www.pilgrimtours.org/eng/tours/caucas.htm), for example), it would seem highly unlikely that the lady forming the club would herself be eligible to join on an ethnic basis.

In fact, it would be highly unlikely that ANY American citizen would be eligible.

In other words, it's a silly concept.

What if they had a Caucasian Club and no-one came... :) If you would bother reading the article, you would find that being a Caucasian, let along being from the Caucusus, is not a requirement for memebership.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Dancing David
BFD,
This is the price we pay for diversity and free speech, you can have an italian club, a french club or a gaelic club.

But the main question is the

The NCAAP allows for White People to Become Members! And any group should have to allow any one to join thier high scholl club as long as they are not disruptive. If black clubs allow white people to attend and white clubs allow black people to attend, there is no issue.

But if someone started a 'german club' where you had to prove german ancestry, that would be a problem.
At the university I attended, the black students group was named For Members Only. How's that for inclusiveness?

[Agammamon]

Originally posted by Malachi151


Don't be an idiot.

The issue with these clubs is that the minority clubs typically form as support groups for minority members of society, whereas "white" clubs typically form as hate groups.

Now, that is not always the case, but this country has a 150 year history of that being predominately the case which is why there is concern about this issue.

I personally see no need for a "white" club. What is the purpose of such a club? Why does she want to form it?

In a school where there may be 5 or 10 Asians out of 500 or 1,000 students, yes I can certianly understand an Asian club, or even in a school with lots of people of that ethic group I can understand it if the club focuses on education about that ethnic group because most schooll history focuses on Westen history, for a variety fo reasons, so if people want to get together to learn about their etnic group then thats fine.

I can't really see what a "white" club is supposed to be about...

Unlike Tony, I won't say you're full of *****, but only mention that not seeing reason for the club's existence is hardly a defense for preventing its fromation. On the other hand I do see your point about our history.
Who knows, maybe they do want to sit around and eat mayonaise sandwiches.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Agammamon


Unlike Tony, I won't say you're full of *****, but only mention that not seeing reason for the club's existence is hardly a defense for preventing its fromation. On the other hand I do see your point about our history.
Who knows, maybe they do want to sit around and eat mayonaise sandwiches.

Fine. let them.

Yes, they will have to actually create a mission statement, one that demonstrates that the club serves a non-racist mission (she claims it is non-racist). No, "A place for white people to go to get away from black people" will not be considered acceptable. Most minority clubs tend to have missions like, "A forum to meet to discuss issues affecting minorities, and how to improve the welfare of minorities in our school." There's no reason white people can't participate in that (similarly, straight people have always been welcome at Gay-Lesbian support organizations).

Like I said earlier, let them form their club. And then I think the blacks and Latinos should join.

Lastly, all this crap about the "Black Entertainment Network" is just that. Just because it is called BET does not mean that it is only entertainment _by_ black people. It is entertainment geared toward the interests of many african-american audience. There are plenty of shows with white people on them. If white people are in a show that the netword thinks african-americans will want to watch, it will be on BET. Flip through the channel sometime on Sunday and see what is on. It is a bunch of white TV evangelists.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

At the university I attended, the black students group was named For Members Only. How's that for inclusiveness?
Well Duh. Most clubs are for members only. Does it prohibit white members?

[Silicon]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

At the university I attended, the black students group was named For Members Only. How's that for inclusiveness?


Yeah, but the entire club was predicated on wearing those stupid jackets with all the snaps.

[Clancie]

The population of Oakley is mostly Anglo-Saxon, with a growing Latino (i.e. also Caucasian) population. The area is far and away, racially speaking, considered "white".

Clubs form around "interest groups" but what is the shared interest here? "Caucasian" is too broad and too vague a term to have anything identifiable in common to justify existing as a "club". "Caucasians" have no cultural traditions in common, no language in common, no shared history or historical traditions. What kind of basis for a club is that?

She says she's not racist, but if so, I have no idea what her purpose in arguing for this idea could possibly be.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Clancie
The population of Oakley is mostly Anglo-Saxon, with a growing Latino (i.e. also Caucasian) population. The area is far and away, racially speaking, considered "white".

Clubs form around "interest groups" but what is the shared interest here? "Caucasian" is too broad and too vague a term to have anything identifiable in common to justify existing as a "club". "Caucasians" have no cultural traditions in common, no language in common, no shared history or historical traditions. What kind of basis for a club is that?

She says she's not racist, but if so, I have no idea what her purpose in arguing for this idea could possibly be.
My guess is that it is a commentary on the existence of other 'ethnic' clubs. I see that as a legitimate point, so long as it is not used as cover for hate.

What do 'african-american' students have in common? The cultural differences from the sahara to the horn to the mid-continental jungles to south Africa are huge. About their only common factor is their darker skin, and the way it has caused them to be treated in American society.

I would also question whether Latinos would be considered Caucasian. "Latino" includes a mix of Spanish with native American (i.e "Indian"). I don't think native Americans are considered Caucasian.

[Tmy]

Its tough for Blacks to have that cultuural link with the "old country" cause most of those ties were severed by slavery. Lots of times these groups can be a place of support for a minority group, or just a gropup to create soem awareness project (ex putting together some special event for MLK day)


Imagine studying abrod in say France, and them joining the American club just so youd get a chance to mingle wh other Americans.

I wonder what people think goes on at these clubs? Its not some sinsiter planing committee. Do you imagine everyone sits around debating how to "stick it to the man". Why dont you go check out one of these clubs sometimes and see whats really going on.

[JAR]

When I was in high school, two of my friends, one who was Russian and the other one European-Jewish, tried to start a European Heritage Club.

I wrote the constitution for the club. I never bothered to ask my friends why the club never came to be.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by pgwenthold

Lastly, all this crap about the "Black Entertainment Network" is just that. Just because it is called BET does not mean that it is only entertainment _by_ black people. It is entertainment geared toward the interests of many african-american audience. There are plenty of shows with white people on them. If white people are in a show that the netword thinks african-americans will want to watch, it will be on BET. Flip through the channel sometime on Sunday and see what is on. It is a bunch of white TV evangelists.

So some of their best friends are white. :D

If NBC, CBS, or ABC had discussion forums that were dominated by talk about "*******, spics and chinks," would you have a problem with that? I could just say, hey, there are plenty of shows with some blacks, hispanics and asians on them.....

Why does BET get a pass?

[JAR]

Originally posted by Malachi151


So yes, I do expect more from "white people" in America than I do from minorities and I am fully aware that that some minorities get away with attitudes that are not acceptable for whites to have, and I accept that and have no problems with it.

Is my POV condesending? Yes it is, but its just realistic.
That's why your communist movement will never succeed. You're too interested in pleasing the minority and too interested in harming the majority.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Luke T.


So some of their best friends are white. :D

If NBC, CBS, or ABC had discussion forums that were dominated by talk about "*******, spics and chinks," would you have a problem with that? I could just say, hey, there are plenty of shows with some blacks, hispanics and asians on them.....

Why does BET get a pass?

Does BET have similar discussion forums? Whenever I pass by, the only things I ever see are music related stuff, HBC athletics, and, on sundays, evangelists.

[Tony]

I see that the hypocrites and bigot have shown themselves for what they really are. Clubs based on races of "minorities" are really "support groups". "Minorities" need a "support group" to discuss the "oppression" that evil whitie has subjected them to on a daily basis. And since we all know how evil whitie is, whenever whitie decides to form a "support group" of his own, it is really a racist thing. Whitie doesn't need a support group, whitie isnt an ethnicity, whitie is evil. Equal rights, tolerance, inclusiveness and respect (but not for whitie). In fact, how dare whitie think of himself as equal to the godlike "minority".

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Tony
I see that the hypocrites and bigot have shown themselves for what they really are. Clubs based on races of "minorities" are really "support groups". "Minorities" need a "support group" to discuss the "oppression" that evil whitie has subjected them to on a daily basis. And since we all know how evil whitie is, whenever whitie decides to form a "support group" of his own, it is really a racist thing. Whitie doesn't need a support group, whitie isnt an ethnicity, whitie is evil. Equal rights, tolerance, inclusiveness and respect (but not for whitie). In fact, how dare whitie think of himself as equal to the godlike "minority".

Nice strawman. Whereas many in this thread have questioned why such a group is needed, I don't recall anyone actually saying they shouldn't be allowed to form one if they want to.

I strongly support it. I want them to form a non-racist club. And I want the minorities to join it.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Malachi151


Don't be an idiot.

The issue with these clubs is that the minority clubs typically form as support groups for minority members of society, whereas "white" clubs typically form as hate groups.

Now, that is not always the case, but this country has a 150 year history of that being predominately the case which is why there is concern about this issue.

I personally see no need for a "white" club. What is the purpose of such a club? Why does she want to form it?

In a school where there may be 5 or 10 Asians out of 500 or 1,000 students, yes I can certianly understand an Asian club, or even in a school with lots of people of that ethic group I can understand it if the club focuses on education about that ethnic group because most schooll history focuses on Westen history, for a variety fo reasons, so if people want to get together to learn about their etnic group then thats fine.

I can't really see what a "white" club is supposed to be about...

I understand your point, and I agree whole heartedly with the fact that there has been bigotry in this country against those who were not caucasion, but as a country, if we actually desire to reach a point where there is equality for all then we must allow the same rights for everyone, including the caucasion students. Especially since in some school districts the causcasion students do make up the minority.

Equality and racism are both two-edged swords, you can't give something to one group and not the other and call it equality or non-racist.

The road to equality is not by swinging the pendulum the other way completely, and thereby allowing certain special freedoms and rights to others who in the past may have been discriminated against; this behavior breeds suspision, hate, anger, and all the very things from which we want to move away.

As for Asian Groups and Black Groups, etc., not promoting racial hatred unlike caucasion groups, well that is baloney. Racism can and does go both ways. Personally, I feel that any group that singles one out as a special or different based on the color of one's skin or one's ancestral descendence has a great potential for building hate and not providing effective support.

Maybe it would be best if all types of these groups were banned on school property, and a general support group where everyone could join, and discuss the issues that they face by being who they are. This would lend in my opinion to a decrease in tensions and possibly an understanding of others who may look different than you.

[Tony]

Originally posted by pgwenthold

I strongly support it. I want them to form a non-racist club. And I want the minorities to join it.

How dare whitie form his own club, whitie's club is evil unless "minorities" are included. Whitie doesnt deserve equal rights or respect, whitie is evil.

[Rosencrantz]

Wow, I guess we didn't have very good publicity fifteen years ago, but I helped found a club like this in my California high school, and as far as I know it's still there. We called it "REACH club -- Remembering European-American Cultural Heritage." We had a European Food Day, went to the local Rennaisance Faire, and many other cultural events. While many of the members were white, we were not exclusively so, and in fact prided ourselves on the fact that we were the most racially diverse ethnic club on campus. Many of us had tried to join other cultural clubs (the Maya club, the United Black Society, etc.) and had been denied entry. They probably thought we were trying to make fun of them, but it gave our application more legitimacy, and in fact was approved without any fuss. I don't think anyone ever accused us of being white supremacists, though. I'm surprised this girl is having so much difficulty. It seems to me like a non-issue.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Tony


How dare whitie form his own club, whitie's club is evil unless "minorities" are included. Whitie doesnt deserve equal rights or respect, whitie is evil.

So, Tony, why would you want to join a whites-only club?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Tony


How dare whitie form his own club, whitie's club is evil unless "minorities" are included. Whitie doesnt deserve equal rights or respect, whitie is evil.

::cue 'we're an oppressed minority in our own country... The Silent Majority' rant (register TM Pauline Hanson)::

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Tony


How dare whitie form his own club, whitie's club is evil unless "minorities" are included.

If they want to, that is. Yes. Whitie's club is evil unless minorities are allowed to join.




Whitie doesnt deserve equal rights or respect, whitie is evil.

Who said anything about not having equal rights? Come on, cletus, ask me about whitie joining a minority club? You want equal rights? Go for it. I will support you just the same. Go join your local chapter of the NAACP. I guarantee, they will let you.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


So, Tony, why would you want to join a whites-only club?

No, I wouldnt join any club based on race.

[JAR]

By the way folks, an ethnic group doesn't have to be the majority group in order to persecute people. The majority of the people in Europe were persecuted for thousands of years by a minority group called the nobility.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Tony


No, I wouldnt join any club based on race.

Then why do you insist on attacking people who agree with you in this regard? There isn't a single person here denying the right of anybody to make a whites-only club. Instead, they are arguing against the very idea of having a club whose membership is limited by race...a club in which a certain race meets simply because they happen to be a certain race. The other examples given...such as the NAACP...aren't "blacks-only" clubs that get together simply because they're all black, nor do they stand around shouting about "evil whitey". In my town, one of the NAACP's most visible missions is opening youth centers and outreach programs whose purpose is to dissuade african-american youth from becoming street thugs. By comparison, how many "whites-only organizations" do you see doing anything except complaining about black people?

We ask "what possible use it there for a whites-only club", and instead of trying to answer, you go off on some idiotic "you all hate white people" trip. A great deal of us here are white, you know. Why don't you just admit that there is no compelling reason to form a "whites-only" club and let the discussion drop?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


The other examples given...such as the NAACP...aren't "blacks-only" clubs that get together simply because they're all black, nor do they stand around shouting about "evil whitey".


The NAACP is a black supremacist group, its sole purpose is to look out for, and advance the interest of blacks, sometimes to the detriment of other groups. There is no white equivalent to the NAACP, and if there were, it would be denounced as racist.

Why don't you just admit that there is no compelling reason to form a "whites-only" club and let the discussion drop?

Unlike a lot of people here, I don’t think rights should be subject to necessity.

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Tony

Unlike a lot of people here, I don’t think rights should be subject to necessity.

And who here is saying this person doesn't have a right to form a whites-only club?

[Clancie]

Posted by Rosencrantz

I'm surprised this girl is having so much difficulty. It seems to me like a non-issue.
Well, your club was an ethnic club, it presumed a common European heritage as a basis. What is the collective identifying basis for the (scientifically inaccurate) idea of a club for "White" people? (i.e. "Caucasian"). We're all brownish anyway, and the term "Caucasian" isn't even accepted scientifically anymore.

She sounds like she has some other agenda than yours--to enjoy getting together with people who share a similar cultural heritage and want to learn more about it.

No one's "white", and yet that's what she wants to make a group about. It's a smokescreen for racial exclusion, not inclusion, and that's why she's having difficulty getting the idea accepted.

[Sundog]

Originally posted by Clancie


No one's "white", and yet that's what she wants to make a group about. It's a smokescreen for racial exclusion, not inclusion, and that's why she's having difficulty getting the idea accepted.

I can't think of a group this doesn't apply to. Who's completely black?

I hate it when you guys make me stick up for Tony. Obviously a group of white students has the same unquestioned right to choose to congregate as any other group.

The operative word here is unquestioned. Just as it would have been inappropriate thirty years ago to question the motives of a blacks-only group, so is it inappropriate in this case.

If they turn into a racist group, well, you told us so. But I rather resent the idea that, alone of all the ethnic groups in America, whites would not know how to behave if they formed an exclusive group.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Clancie

Well, your club was an ethnic club, it presumed a common European heritage as a basis. What is the collective identifying basis for the (scientifically inaccurate) idea of a club for "White" people?


How about American? That is the common ethnicity for "white" people.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Tony


The NAACP is a black supremacist group, its sole purpose is to look out for, and advance the interest of blacks, sometimes to the detriment of other groups. There is no white equivalent to the NAACP, and if there were, it would be denounced as racist.




Hohohoohohoho.

And Tony, I guess thats what happens when you take history out of context. A black supremacist group.
Since when is fighting for fair rights and equal treatment a 'supremacist' movement?

The NAACP was started and founded to engage society in equal rights for people of color. I DARE you to show where they are a black supremacist group! Unless that was just political hyperbole.

There are plenty of groups similar to the NCAAP that promote the intrests of white rich people, they are called bussiness lunches, country clubs, fraternities and sororities.

Thanks for the laugh, I hope that you were just goofing. Did you know that some people do call the Arayan Nation the NAAwhiteP?


PS There is the JDL, and I am sure that at the end of the 1800s there were local groups to promote the intrests of the Irish immigrants and the Italians immigrants who alos faced severe discrimination. Probably some sort of associations for eastern Europeans, and hmm I bet some of them are still active today.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Tony



How about American? That is the common ethnicity for "white" people.

So they can exclude blacks and latinos who are also american, try again.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Tony
Unlike a lot of people here, I don’t think rights should be subject to necessity.

This is very true! And I think that a valid argument could be made if clubs were allowed that say allowed on members of a single religion to join.

Neccesity should not be required for rights.

But exclusivity is against rights. And while this may mean that children who don't meet the gradepoint average will be allowed to attend the meetings of the Honor's Society I don't see how there would be any harm in that.

The other solution would be for her to have her club meet OFF school property, many organizations exist for students with exclusive entrance rules. And they meet off of school property and aren't subject to the equal protection clause of state sponsored groups.

So why doesn't she find a church to have her Might Whitey Club, or better yet, she should join the BSA!

[Tony]

Originally posted by Dancing David


The NAACP was started and founded to engage society in equal rights for people of color. I DARE you to show where they are a black supremacist group!




Easy, their support for affirmative action.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Dancing David


So they can exclude blacks and latinos who are also american, try again.

Nope, blacks and latinos have excluded themselves. Ever heard of the term "african american"?

[Tony]

Originally posted by Dancing David


This is very true! And I think that a valid argument could be made if clubs were allowed that say allowed on members of a single religion to join.

Neccesity should not be required for rights.

But exclusivity is against rights. And while this may mean that children who don't meet the gradepoint average will be allowed to attend the meetings of the Honor's Society I don't see how there would be any harm in that.

The other solution would be for her to have her club meet OFF school property, many organizations exist for students with exclusive entrance rules. And they meet off of school property and aren't subject to the equal protection clause of state sponsored groups.

So why doesn't she find a church to have her Might Whitey Club, or better yet, she should join the BSA!

Your disdain for equal treatment and fairness is noted.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Zep
Considering that the Caucusus are a major mountain range in the Asian part of Russia, Georgia and that area (see here (http://www.pilgrimtours.org/eng/tours/caucas.htm), for example), it would seem highly unlikely that the lady forming the club would herself be eligible to join on an ethnic basis.

In fact, it would be highly unlikely that ANY American citizen would be eligible.

In other words, it's a silly concept.

What if they had a Caucasian Club and no-one came... :)
Okay wise guy, when someone says Caucasian, we all know he isn't talking about people from the Caucasus Mountains.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by Tony


Nope, blacks and latinos have excluded themselves. Ever heard of the term "african american"?



Huh?


"Remember %90 of all accidents occur %100 of the time!"- me

"The right hand knows what the left hand is doing" G.W.Bush 9/23 /2003 speech to the UN

" I think they'll be no charge for this too beer eh?" Doug McKenzi Strange Brew

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by Tony


Your disdain for equal treatment and fairness is noted.

Where?

"Remember %90 of all accidents occur %100 of the time!"- me

"The right hand knows what the left hand is doing" G.W.Bush 9/23 /2003 speech to the UN

" I think they'll be no charge for this too beer eh?" Doug McKenzi Strange Brew

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel


Where?

"Remember %90 of all accidents occur %100 of the time!"- me

"The right hand knows what the left hand is doing" G.W.Bush 9/23 /2003 speech to the UN

" I think they'll be no charge for this too beer eh?" Doug McKenzi Strange Brew

"I am your father, Luke. Join the dark side of the force, you knob." Bob McKenzi, ibid

[TillEulenspiegel]

Ahh The farce is strong with this one, I see you humor organ is a large as mine!...

[Skeptic]

I think people here are missing the point. "Caucasian", unlike "black", is NOT an ethnic group: it was simply a designation used to seperate the black people from the white people. Nobody ever claimed to be a "caucasian" anywhere except in forms where "race" had to be filled out.

Nobody would object to an Italian club, German club, Irish club, or even European club--since these are actual groups that have something in common. Perhaps something like a "European club" is what she really meant--one whose purpose is to celebrate European culture and heritage. In that case, the club is legitimate--as would be a "christian club" to celebrate christianity.

As it is, however, having a "caucasian club" is the equivalent of having a "non-jewish" club or a "No GirlS alLOwed" club. The point of such a club could no be anyhing BUT simple exclusion of blacks (and/or jews), hardly a legitimate goal for a school.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Skeptic
I think people here are missing the point. "Caucasian", unlike "black", is NOT an ethnic group: it was simply a designation used to seperate the black people from the white people. Nobody ever claimed to be a "caucasian" anywhere except in forms where "race" had to be filled out.

Nobody would object to an Italian club, German club, Irish club, or even European club--since these are actual groups that have something in common. Perhaps something like a "European club" is what she really meant--one whose purpose is to celebrate European culture and heritage. In that case, the club is legitimate--as would be a "christian club" to celebrate christianity.

As it is, however, having a "caucasian club" is the equivalent of having a "non-jewish" club or a "No GirlS alLOwed" club. The point of such a club could no be anyhing BUT simple exclusion of blacks (and/or jews), hardly a legitimate goal for a school.


What about a "white-american" club?

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Tony


Your disdain for equal treatment and fairness is noted.

As i stated there should be no clubs that are exclusive, an african american(a term coined by whites who couldn't say the word black) club that excluded white would be wrong, just as I think that a catholic club that excluded protestans would be wrong. That is as long as they are held as a school sponsored club.

But if they want to do as the BSA does and just use the school property without school sponsorship more power to them!

Your quote reminds me of Dr. Zhivago
"your attitude is noted, your attitude is noted"

I don't think that the NCAAP supporting affirmative action means that they are a supremacist group like the KKK. But hey take the NAACP add sourcream and chopped tomatoes and you would have NAACP Supreme!

(I agree that people should have the right to assemble peace-ably to do whatever they want. I just don't want to see exclusive groups sponsored by schools, I would assume the California voters will decide this one.)

[Tony]

Originally posted by Dancing David


As i stated there should be no clubs that are exclusive, an african american(a term coined by whites who couldn't say the word black) club that excluded white would be wrong, just as I think that a catholic club that excluded protestans would be wrong. That is as long as they are held as a school sponsored club.

But if they want to do as the BSA does and just use the school property without school sponsorship more power to them!

Your quote reminds me of Dr. Zhivago
"your attitude is noted, your attitude is noted"


I don’t think the club should be exclusive either, but a "Black Student Club" is clearly meant exclusively for black kids. If it weren’t, it would have a different name.

I don't think that the NCAAP supporting affirmative action means that they are a supremacist group like the KKK.

Not as violent as the KKK, but a supremacist group none-the-less.

[Zep]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin
If you would bother reading the article, you would find that being a Caucasian, let along being from the Caucusus, is not a requirement for memebership. Ummm...forgive me for not using an "ironic" smilie. I'll try the more direct route.

So why, if anyone is welcome to join, is it to be called a "CAUCASION Club"?? Why not "EVERYBODY'S WELCOME Club"??? Or "BLACK, WHITE AND BRINDLE Club"?? Or "The Club With NO RESTRICTIONS DUE TO RACIAL STEREOTYPING"??

But if the adjective "caucasian" in the title DOES mean something, my previous point would seem to stand - the club founder would not be eligible to be a member. Yes?

[JAR]

Originally posted by Skeptic
[snip]
Nobody would object to an Italian club, German club, Irish club, or even European club--since these are actual groups that have something in common. Perhaps something like a "European club" is what she really meant--one whose purpose is to celebrate European culture and heritage. In that case, the club is legitimate--as would be a "christian club" to celebrate christianity.

But the truth is Skeptic, Caucasians do have something in common. We Caucasians are all Caucasians.

Once again Skeptic, you have chosen the leftist route.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by Tony




I don't think that the NCAAP supporting affirmative action means that they are a supremacist group like the KKK.

Not as violent as the KKK, but a supremacist group none-the-less.

So the NAACP is violent as well as supremisist?

Please explain and give examples/evidence

"Remember %90 of all accidents occur %100 of the time!"- me

"The right hand knows what the left hand is doing" G.W.Bush 9/23 /2003 speech to the UN

" I think they'll be no charge for this too beer eh?" Doug McKenzi Strange Brew

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Zep
Ummm...forgive me for not using an "ironic" smilie. I'll try the more direct route.

So why, if anyone is welcome to join, is it to be called a "CAUCASION Club"?? Why not "EVERYBODY'S WELCOME Club"??? Or "BLACK, WHITE AND BRINDLE Club"?? Or "The Club With NO RESTRICTIONS DUE TO RACIAL STEREOTYPING"??

But if the adjective "caucasian" in the title DOES mean something, my previous point would seem to stand - the club founder would not be eligible to be a member. Yes?

Because maybe the focus of the club are Caucasians? Kind of like if you join an Irish club, while everyone would be allowed to join, they club would focus on Irish culture, food, history, etc.. If however you only allow Irish to join, that's a different story.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel


So the NAACP is violent as well as supremisist?

Please explain and give examples/evidence

"Remember %90 of all accidents occur %100 of the time!"- me

"The right hand knows what the left hand is doing" G.W.Bush 9/23 /2003 speech to the UN

" I think they'll be no charge for this too beer eh?" Doug McKenzi Strange Brew

I wouldn't call NAACP violent, but I would call it counter productive if not downright racist. They take on "all white people are racist until proven otherwise" attitude for every issue. Black people are poor? It's all white people's fault of course. A company with a white owner does not higher black people? They must be racist! Those types of groups just refuse to believe that sometimes black people are less qualified than white people. They rather force someone to higher a less qualified minority person than admit to realities of real world.

Double standards are also all right by them too. I was driving by Los Angeles Convention Center the other day and there is a huge banner that reads "Black Business Expo." Now do you really think there could be a banner that reads "White Business Expo" there wouldn't be a huge uproar/riot?

[Zep]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Because maybe the focus of the club are Caucasians? Kind of like if you join an Irish club, while everyone would be allowed to join, they club would focus on Irish culture, food, history, etc.. If however you only allow Irish to join, that's a different story. OK, then is this club going to be concentrating specifically on the culture of some southern Russian mountains? Wouldn't that be a bit too specific to make it really viable as an organisation? Or is there THAT much interest within that school for this subject? :confused:

As I said above, the idea is silly, whichever way you read the title.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Zep
OK, then is this club going to be concentrating specifically on the culture of some southern Russian mountains? Wouldn't that be a bit too specific to make it really viable as an organisation? Or is there THAT much interest within that school for this subject? :confused:

As I said above, the idea is silly, whichever way you read the title.

Main Entry: Cau·ca·sian
Pronunciation: ko-'kA-zh&n, kä- also -'ka-zh&n
Function: adjective
Date: 1807
1 : of or relating to the Caucasus or its inhabitants
2 a : of or relating to the white race of humankind as classified according to physical features b : of or relating to the white race as defined by law specifically as composed of persons of European, No. African, or southwest Asian ancestry

[Zep]

It was called "Caucasian" because in the 1800's it was deemed by eugenics "scientists" that all the "white" races originated in that area of the world. Why there particularly, I can't exactly recall, except that racial theorists of the early 20th century perpetuated the myth, and so it comes down to us today.

So my question stands, misnomer regardless.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Zep
It was called "Caucasian" because in the 1800's it was deemed by eugenics "scientists" that all the "white" races originated in that area of the world. Why there particularly, I can't exactly recall, except that racial theorists of the early 20th century perpetuated the myth, and so it comes down to us today.

So my question stands, misnomer regardless.

Well I don't know how things are like in Australia, but in USA the application have a Caucasian as a label for white people. I don't know why girls picked that word, perhaps it's because she saw it on one of the school's form's but that is the reason. I doubt it has anything to do with the Caucasus area, though I could be wrong.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Well I don't know how things are like in Australia, but in USA the application have a Caucasian as a label for white people.

Indeed, ditto. It seems my recall was slightly awry on this subject. From here (http://www.sammydman.com/archives/001191.php), some more useful info:
"The Caucasus is a mountain range lying between the Black Sea and the
Caspian Sea, and 'Caucasian', in origin, means only 'pertaining to or
derived from the Caucasus'.

But, around 1800, a chap called Blumenbach decided to classify human beings
into "races", according to his own lights. He recognized a "white race",
and he decided, for reasons best known to himself, that this "race" must
have originated in the Caucasus. And so he named this group 'Caucasian'.
Though scientists have long since repudiated the concept of "races", and
though Blumenbach's classification of human populations has been overtaken
by better ones, the old and pointless name 'Caucasian' is still often
applied to Europeans and to those placed in the same group with them.

Quite independently, linguists also apply the label 'Caucasian' to three
language families whose members are spoken in or near the Caucasus:
Abkhaz-Adyghe, Nakh-Daghestan, and Kartvelian."

I don't know why girls picked that word, perhaps it's because she saw it on one of the school's form's but that is the reason. I doubt it has anything to do with the Caucasus area, though I could be wrong.

Obviously she DOES mean "white people only" but the derivation of the name leads to low burlesque, doesn't it! :)

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Because maybe the focus of the club are Caucasians? Kind of like if you join an Irish club, while everyone would be allowed to join, they club would focus on Irish culture, food, history, etc.. If however you only allow Irish to join, that's a different story.

What defines "white culture"? What is "white history"? Do those things even exist as such? There are German clubs, Polish clubs, Hungarian clubs, Russian clubs, Irish clubs, French clubs, Italian clubs...the list goes on. They are as diverse as you can get. What do all these groups have in common? What common denominator exists between the Romanians, the Bosnians, and the Greek, that they can all celebrate together? What type of food, music, or culture binds the Anglos and the Lebanese?

There are only two types of people that could be left out of a caucasians-only club - Asiatics and Africans. That's it. Considering this, what sort tenuous logic exists which can tie the Mexicans to the Swedish, but can't in like manner be used to tie the Africans together with them? If there isn't any, isn't the application of whatever logic you use doomed to be arbitrarily applied? If that's the case, then your goal is exclusion, after all - and indeed based solely on race.

If it comes down to it, somebody can say "How about a white-American club?". That's not really at issue here; the point was a "Caucasians club" - but nevertheless. What does "white America" have to celebrate? What can it celebrate? What achievements can it claim, that it can fairly exclude Africans and Asiatics, and white non-Americans? Sports, science, nature, religion, history - what careless string of reasoning can be used to untangle the history and culture of whites in America from the history and culture of Asians and Africans?

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Grammatron


I wouldn't call NAACP violent, but I would call it counter productive if not downright racist. They take on "all white people are racist until proven otherwise" attitude for every issue. Black people are poor? It's all white people's fault of course. A company with a white owner does not higher black people? They must be racist! Those types of groups just refuse to believe that sometimes black people are less qualified than white people. They rather force someone to higher a less qualified minority person than admit to realities of real world.

Double standards are also all right by them too. I was driving by Los Angeles Convention Center the other day and there is a huge banner that reads "Black Business Expo." Now do you really think there could be a banner that reads "White Business Expo" there wouldn't be a huge uproar/riot?

I think that we could remember that at the time the NAACP was founeded our nation had some real problems with racism. We still have problems with poverty but I hope you are not denying the racism that was prevalent until about thirty years ago.

I don't think that I need to haul out the laundry list of the injustices of american history. But hey , the KKK castrated a black man in the county next to mine in the 1960s.(Unbeknownst to many the Klan is very strong in Illinois and Indiana, unless you have been to prison, then it is the Arayan Nation)

Perhaps the NAACP seems anachronistic, but believe me there are still pockets of racism, here in the mid west, we still have 'sundowner' communities and counties. And people are still afraid to live in a larger town because of the black people who live there. So perhaps there is a role for the NAACP, on the obverse, there are communities where being white could also be very unhappy making.

PS It pays to read don't it!
The club will not be exclusive, so it ain't a problem.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


What defines "white culture"? What is "white history"? Do those things even exist as such? There are German clubs, Polish clubs, Hungarian clubs, Russian clubs, Irish clubs, French clubs, Italian clubs...the list goes on. They are as diverse as you can get. What do all these groups have in common? What common denominator exists between the Romanians, the Bosnians, and the Greek, that they can all celebrate together? What type of food, music, or culture binds the Anglos and the Lebanese?

There are only two types of people that could be left out of a caucasians-only club - Asiatics and Africans. That's it. Considering this, what sort tenuous logic exists which can tie the Mexicans to the Swedish, but can't in like manner be used to tie the Africans together with them? If there isn't any, isn't the application of whatever logic you use doomed to be arbitrarily applied? If that's the case, then your goal is exclusion, after all - and indeed based solely on race.

If it comes down to it, somebody can say "How about a white-American club?". That's not really at issue here; the point was a "Caucasians club" - but nevertheless. What does "white America" have to celebrate? What can it celebrate? What achievements can it claim, that it can fairly exclude Africans and Asiatics, and white non-Americans? Sports, science, nature, religion, history - what careless string of reasoning can be used to untangle the history and culture of whites in America from the history and culture of Asians and Africans?

Who cares? The point of the matter is that she should be able to start the club. If she wants to discuss how cool white people are let her. She is not excluding anyone from coming to the club, so people like you can come over and point out to her that and everyone can have a nice and healthy debate. Sounds like fun to me.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by Grammatron


I wouldn't call NAACP violent, but I would call it counter productive if not downright racist. They take on "all white people are racist until proven otherwise" attitude for every issue........



Double standards are also all right by them too. I was driving by Los Angeles Convention Center the other day and there is a huge banner that reads "Black Business Expo."

Now do you really think there could be a banner that reads "White Business Expo" there wouldn't be a huge uproar/riot?

Am I addressing "tony" or "gramertron"? Is one the avatar of the other? I like to know who I'm talking to.

Maybe you would'nt call them violent but tony did " ...not as violent as the KKK..."

"all white people are rasist until proven otherwise?"

Really? Can you please provide the rule book page # where the charter says this or examples that back your claim?


Hmm a riot by the NAACP? With thier supposed violent behavior ?

I have heard them shout so they are vocal. I cannot however prognosticate prehaps Randi can help You or maybe you should do the experiment Yourself.

I ask again to whom am I addresing my comments

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Who cares? The point of the matter is that she should be able to start the club. If she wants to discuss how cool white people are let her. She is not excluding anyone from coming to the club, so people like you can come over and point out to her that and everyone can have a nice and healthy debate. Sounds like fun to me.

For the (fourth? fifth?) time, nobody is saying she shouldn't be able to start the club. That is no longer an issue, and no longer the point. What I (along with most of the rest of us) am doing now is discussing the reasoning behind even wanting to start such a club in the first place. Ya kennit?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


For the (fourth? fifth?) time, nobody is saying she shouldn't be able to start the club. That is no longer an issue, and no longer the point. What I (along with most of the rest of us) am doing now is discussing the reasoning behind even wanting to start such a club in the first place. Ya kennit?

Only that girl knows.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel


Am I addressing "tony" or "gramertron"? Is one the avatar of the other? I like to know who I'm talking to.

Maybe you would'nt call them violent but tony did " ...not as violent as the KKK..."

"all white people are rasist until proven otherwise?"

Really? Can you please provide the rule book page # where the charter says this or examples that back your claim?


Hmm a riot by the NAACP? With thier supposed violent behavior ?

I have heard them shout so they are vocal. I cannot however prognosticate prehaps Randi can help You or maybe you should do the experiment Yourself.

I ask again to whom am I addresing my comments

I did not realize this was a private message from you to Tony I would not have replied to you if I knew that. Since this one is addressed to me I will assume you want me to reply.

Really? Can you please provide the rule book page # where the charter says this or examples that back your claim?

They might not have an official rule for it, but neither do most organizations that practice racism, affirmative action comes close to being that rule though. More specifically, like the example I provided, there could be a "Black Business Expo" and no one cares, but one white girl wants to start a Caucasian club and NAACP is in an uproar.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


What defines "white culture"? What is "white history"? Do those things even exist as such? There are German clubs, Polish clubs, Hungarian clubs, Russian clubs, Irish clubs, French clubs, Italian clubs...the list goes on. They are as diverse as you can get. What do all these groups have in common? What common denominator exists between the Romanians, the Bosnians, and the Greek, that they can all celebrate together? What type of food, music, or culture binds the Anglos and the Lebanese?

There are only two types of people that could be left out of a caucasians-only club - Asiatics and Africans. That's it. Considering this, what sort tenuous logic exists which can tie the Mexicans to the Swedish, but can't in like manner be used to tie the Africans together with them? If there isn't any, isn't the application of whatever logic you use doomed to be arbitrarily applied? If that's the case, then your goal is exclusion, after all - and indeed based solely on race.

If it comes down to it, somebody can say "How about a white-American club?". That's not really at issue here; the point was a "Caucasians club" - but nevertheless. What does "white America" have to celebrate? What can it celebrate? What achievements can it claim, that it can fairly exclude Africans and Asiatics, and white non-Americans? Sports, science, nature, religion, history - what careless string of reasoning can be used to untangle the history and culture of whites in America from the history and culture of Asians and Africans?
It seems to me that it isn't just the fact that she wants to start a Caucasian club that bothers you but rather that she wants to start a club with a genetic them at all.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi


What defines "white culture"? What is "white history"? Do those things even exist as such? There are German clubs, Polish clubs, Hungarian clubs, Russian clubs, Irish clubs, French clubs, Italian clubs...the list goes on. They are as diverse as you can get. What do all these groups have in common? What common denominator exists between the Romanians, the Bosnians, and the Greek, that they can all celebrate together? What type of food, music, or culture binds the Anglos and the Lebanese?

There are only two types of people that could be left out of a caucasians-only club - Asiatics and Africans. That's it. Considering this, what sort tenuous logic exists which can tie the Mexicans to the Swedish, but can't in like manner be used to tie the Africans together with them? If there isn't any, isn't the application of whatever logic you use doomed to be arbitrarily applied? If that's the case, then your goal is exclusion, after all - and indeed based solely on race.

If it comes down to it, somebody can say "How about a white-American club?". That's not really at issue here; the point was a "Caucasians club" - but nevertheless. What does "white America" have to celebrate? What can it celebrate? What achievements can it claim, that it can fairly exclude Africans and Asiatics, and white non-Americans? Sports, science, nature, religion, history - what careless string of reasoning can be used to untangle the history and culture of whites in America from the history and culture of Asians and Africans?
You aren't going to convince me that there aren't any ethnic traits that are more common among white Americans than among non-white Americans.

You also aren't going to convince me that there aren't any ethnic traits that are more common among white people in general than among non-white people in general.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by Grammatron


I did not realize this was a private message from you to Tony I would not have replied to you if I knew that. Since this one is addressed to me I will assume you want me to reply.

Really? Can you please provide the rule book page # where the charter says this or examples that back your claim?

They might not have an official rule for it, but neither do most organizations that practice racism, affirmative action comes close to being that rule though. More specifically, like the example I provided, there could be a "Black Business Expo" and no one cares, but one white girl wants to start a Caucasian club and NAACP is in an uproar.

It wasn't a private message, but the seamless way I quired "tony" and the direct nature of Your answer gave rise to the possibility that you are one in the same. It matters not tho as your opinions reflect the same stance.

Your are correct in your assement that no rule book is needed to account for discriminatory behavior, but you disregard the second half of my question.."examples that back Your claim". In fact I looked up this years schedule of "Black Expo 2003" and found that it was held in Oakland ( is that LA, I don't know...). what I found was a fairly innocuous meeting of a voluntary association.

When one make claims , one must be prepaired to defend them.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel


It wasn't a private message, but the seamless way I quired "tony" and the direct nature of Your answer gave rise to the possibility that you are one in the same. It matters not tho as your opinions reflect the same stance.

Your are correct in your assement that no rule book is needed to account for discriminatory behavior, but you disregard the second half of my question.."examples that back Your claim". In fact I looked up this years schedule of "Black Expo 2003" and found that it was held in Oakland ( is that LA, I don't know...). what I found was a fairly innocuous meeting of a voluntary association.

When one make claims , one must be prepaired to defend them.

I don't quite understand your reply. Are you saying that the girl is proposing an involuntary association at her school?

If not, then perhaps you missed my point. I don't care about race, if bunch of black business want to come together for an Expo, they can go right ahead. If a white girl wants to start a Caucasian club, she is welcome to it. NAACP on the other hand, is only ok with black organizations because a white organization is automatically racist to them.

By the way, here's the link to the Black Expo: http://www.blackbusinessexpo.com/expo2002/