Is it moral...?

[Iamme]

.....for a Christian couple to start a mom and pop business in a small town, where there alREADy is a mom and pop business in town, of the same type? The presumption is that the customer base really could not support two such stores.

or,...how about if a know-it- all decides to tell all, about fix-it tips through magazines or in the newspaper. This person would be doing a great service to the reading public, who may feel handy enough to do the work themselves. But, obviously, such tips would take potential work away from plumbers, electricians, appliance repair people, etc., who might be charging $25-75 an hour for their services. *I* am in this line of work, and I have learned that many of the typical things that go wrong about the house are either easy to diagnose, or easy to fix. Would you like to know what to look for, with your refrigerator, or dryer, or water heater, or furnace, or? :D

If YOU can come up with more examples, please post them here.

[Eos of the Eons]

I don't think it's a question of morality or ethics. Competition is what keeps products and services from being second rate all the time. If you don't have the know how to compete, then go do something you're better at for a living.

I've worked for enough 'mom and pop' type businesses that failed to know that it is no picnic dealing with irate customers because of mediocre products.


It's just a fact of life. If you risk starting a business where a similar one already exists, then you have to roll with the punches.

I welcome competition.

[shemp]

You could start your own competing column, and give bad DYI advice. For example: "If your refrigerator is making strange noises, whack it several times with a hammer." This will increase your business.

[Iamme]

Shemp---LMAO..REALly!!!!:roll:

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by shemp
You could start your own competing column, and give bad DYI advice. For example: "If your refrigerator is making strange noises, whack it several times with a hammer." This will increase your business.

So, stick in your opinion on the morality thing. You obviously don't like mine.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by shemp
You could start your own competing column, and give bad DYI advice. For example: "If your refrigerator is making strange noises, whack it several times with a hammer." This will increase your business.
You missed the first three steps: Slander the competition, threaten the competition, sabotage the competition.

That's called Business Ethics.

[Eos of the Eons]

Okay, there's bad business ethics, but I didn't suggest that. Like I said, I've had bad experiences working for people who shouldn't own businesses because they provide bad service and bad products. There was no competion and no incentive to provide good service and products. It sucked having to deal with customer complaints when the boss doesn't give a sh*t. And if you're a waitress, you get no tips because the food took a freakin hour to get to their table-since the boss is cooking and has no clue how to cook in a restaurant setting.

If you're the one adding a business where one similar already exists, then you risk not having any business if the other one is good.

What's immoral about all that?

Noone said to come in and start bad talking the other one. You'll look like an idiot if the competition is well loved, and forget about getting a good rep that way. You'll deserve to fail.

I'm just saying that the market has a way of having checks and balances to keep the consumers happy.

[reprise]

Tradesmens here are generally required to be licensed and there are many "handyman" jobs which cannot generally be carried out by unlicensed people - so telling people how to fix things themselves isn't necessarily going to have a great deal of impact on the customer base of licensed tradespeople.

In respect of repair work not requiring a licence, people often engage someone else to perform the work because they lack either the knowledge or the necessary equipment to perform the task themselves - it's cheaper in terms of both time and money get someone else to do the job.

It's immoral to drop your rates to such a low level that it will bankrupt the competition whereupon you can then restore your rates to whatever level you like - but here, such practises are also illegal.

[Gulliamo]

Originally posted by Iamme
.....for a Christian couple to start a mom and pop business in a small town, where there alREADy is a mom and pop business in town, of the same type? The presumption is that the customer base really could not support two such stores.


Morality aside. If you’re talking about "standard small town" where a large percentage of the population practices the same faith one may want to take into consideration what the congregation may think of the new competition. If they have a soft spot for “mom and pop” then your shiny new business may be frowned upon. I am unaware that the Christian faith mandates rules for business competition. It is thought that if you are not wise enough to make a moral decision you would ask the priest or congregation for advice.

Personally I would throw up a Super-Wal~Mart and destroy the mom-&-pops for 100 miles in every direction. If anyone didn’t like it they should buy WMT stock.

[Eos of the Eons]

yeah, Walmart sucks for adding competition where none is needed, but if mom and pop could only charge prices I couldn't afford, then I'd have to suck up my guilt and sneak into the Walmart.

[Iamme]

Eos---I *did* read your post, before responding to Shemp, the first time around. I see you are looking for my opinion. Here it is:

You sound pretty matter-of-fact. Kind of cold hearted.

Let's presume that it is already established...it's already a given, that such a small town can't support two of the same types of businesses. Your attitude is like 'may the best man win'. Wellll...we KNOW that is going to be what is going to happen. But is that right?


Even if the competitor has grandiose plans for even a better store...one with more things, or services offered...should they build the store, knowing in all likely hood that it is going to un the other couple out of business?

Would a true Christian person do this? WWJD?

It's like it's 'open season' (hunting terminology). Should it be that way?

You could argue that the original couple could/should improve THEIR store. But...as I said earlier...this town only has room for one. At BEST, if BOTH businesses started offering superior goods/ services...then each business would receive half the business the first owners were receiving.

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The great secret of power is never to will to do more than you can accomplish-Henrik Ibsen

(Ha! Henrik Ibsen?...like, Henry Gibson?...that short character actor? Maybe that is how he took on his stage name?!)

[Iamme]

Here is a new one for you to ponder:

You have your eyeballs set on this beautiful chick. You * think* that she has noticed you as well. She is engaged! What should you do?

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I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Iamme
Eos---I *did* read your post, before responding to Shemp, the first time around. I see you are looking for my opinion. Here it is:

You sound pretty matter-of-fact. Kind of cold hearted.

Let's presume that it is already established...it's already a given, that such a small town can't support two of the same types of businesses. Your attitude is like 'may the best man win'. Wellll...we KNOW that is going to be what is going to happen. But is that right?


Even if the competitor has grandiose plans for even a better store...one with more things, or services offered...should they build the store, knowing in all likely hood that it is going to un the other couple out of business?

Would a true Christian person do this? WWJD?

It's like it's 'open season' (hunting terminology). Should it be that way?

You could argue that the original couple could/should improve THEIR store. But...as I said earlier...this town only has room for one. At BEST, if BOTH businesses started offering superior goods/ services...then each business would receive half the business the first owners were receiving.

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The great secret of power is never to will to do more than you can accomplish-Henrik Ibsen

(Ha! Henrik Ibsen?...like, Henry Gibson?...that short character actor? Maybe that is how he took on his stage name?!)


Towns grow. When I was in a town of 3000 we had 3 places selling similar items, two on the same street. I'm not sure which was there first. One is gone, and the two farthest apart remain.

The 'may the best man win' philosophy may be cold, but that is the risk people take when starting businesses. Do a good job and the competition will stay away (if they're smart) until there are enough people around to ensure that even only 1/2 of those customers will be enough for the business to thrive.

IF the original business grows with the town, then the competition doesn't have a chance.

The incoming competitor has to look at the situation and decide if it will be seen as 'unethical' and therefore foresee failure.

If they are seen as unethical, then they will fail and no harm done to the original business. If they take half of the business and both businesses survive, then no harm done IMO.

Mom and pop can protect themselves with good business practices and the customers will stay loyal to them. The new business will get only 1% of the customers and fail.

The remaining store in my town also rents videos. Many video stores have opened and failed because they didn't provide the service/selection/prices that the original store had alongside selling groceries and convenience items.

Customers are very smart, and an established business can have an advantage over any incoming competitors because they know the people and could even provide better prices via sales if needed.

Now, if the mom and pop store already there actually sucks, then I feel they derserve to fail. An incoming competitor deserves to improve the situation.

So, I feel it depends on the situation. It's not that it's cold, it's up to the first people around to do a good job. If they do they can't be hurt by competition. If they suck, they deserve to fail. It's the same with the incoming competition. IF they are being unethical the customers will see that and stay away. They then deserve to fail. The original business can even advertise better/more friendly service, etc. (we know what you want/need/deserve).

Once towns grow though, there will be room for fair competition. The original stores should realize that and offer good service.

This has just been my experience. I appreciate competition when it benefits the consumer and the original business has taken advantage of the monopoly by charging high prices and giving bad service. This happened in my small town when a restaurant opened and gave bad service and second rate cooking. First a neat sub shop opened, and then a few years later an A&W opened up. The shoddy business is gone, and the new ones are both thriving.

I would have hated for the sub shop owners to stay away just because the crappy original restaurant was there. The owners of the crappy restaurant went out of business for a while. Then they got a clue and opened up a pizza only place. Now they actually survive by delivering pizza. If they do a good job this time, then other pizza places won't open up and risk failing to a good established business.

People do scope out the business opportunity before risking setting up a business where there is not enough business to get.

Then it's buyer beware. It's not fair for the consumer to have only one bad source to choose from and support.


I don't feel anyone should come in and put someone out of business, and I feel they can't if the first business is great. I also feel that the original business should fail if they aren't doing a good job and refuse to even when there is competition.

I hope this clarifies my position. I wasn't trying to generalize, but explain my experience in the situation.

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Iamme
You sound pretty matter-of-fact. Kind of cold hearted.
The alternative is tradition-bound. Mom and pop opened that original store, so they have the moral right to run it for the rest of eternity, regardless of how efficient, effective, or price conscious it is. By god, their children's children should have the moral right to continue selling those doo-dads, which we all have to keep buying even if they become obsolete.

Where is the morality of requiring me to shop at a place that isn't as good as it could be, simply because they got there first? Where is this great moral law that says once I start doing something, no one else is ever allowed to interfere or compete in any way whatsoever?

Primacy is not a moral trump card.

[Iamme]

Hi Reprise. You can't tell me that Home Depot, Lowes, Menard's and their ilk, have not put a dent in what the licensed people are earning. If it weren't for these home building centers that even have employees telling people how to do electrical repairs or plumbing repairs...or heck, there are people who are doing their own complete remodeling and additions, that wouldn't have considered such a thing a number of years back...the tradespeople would be even charging MORE an hour now, than what they are. You can take that one to the bank.

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I don't care what is written about me, so long that it isn't true.-Dorothy Parker

[Iamme]

Hi Reprise. You can't tell me that Home Depot, Lowes, Menard's and their ilk, have not put a dent in what the licensed people are earning. If it weren't for these home building centers that even have employees telling people how to do electrical repairs or plumbing repairs...or heck, there are people who are doing their own complete remodeling and additions, that wouldn't have considered such a thing a number of years back...the tradespeople would be even charging MORE an hour now, than what they are. You can take that one to the bank.

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I don't care what is written about me, so long that it isn't true.-Dorothy Parker

[Iamme]

Hi Reprise. You can't tell me that Home Depot, Lowes, Menard's and their ilk, have not put a dent in what the licensed people are earning. If it weren't for these home building centers that even have employees telling people how to do electrical repairs or plumbing repairs...or heck, there are people who are doing their own complete remodeling and additions, that wouldn't have considered such a thing a number of years back...the tradespeople would be even charging MORE an hour now, than what they are. You can take that one to the bank.

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I don't care what is written about me, so long that it isn't true.-Dorothy Parker

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Yahzi

The alternative is tradition-bound. Mom and pop opened that original store, so they have the moral right to run it for the rest of eternity, regardless of how efficient, effective, or price conscious it is. By god, their children's children should have the moral right to continue selling those doo-dads, which we all have to keep buying even if they become obsolete.

Where is the morality of requiring me to shop at a place that isn't as good as it could be, simply because they got there first? Where is this great moral law that says once I start doing something, no one else is ever allowed to interfere or compete in any way whatsoever?

Primacy is not a moral trump card.

Thank you, well worded, and a good point.

[Iamme]

Gulliamo. Hi. I heard the other day on the radio, where some group wants to sue Walmart for trying to ruin a town, by ruining 'mom and pop' businesses for, like, as you say...like a hundred miles around. The host of the show said personally, he believes Walmart has done MORE good for communities than harm, and cited a few points. They employ lots of people, they give lots to the communities, and more.

[Iamme]

Eos---You make a good point in your second paragraph about how business people should know of that risk before they start and should offer the best of goods and services, and then prudent competitors might then stay away. Good point. Also, good story about your small hometown of 3000.

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A man who doesn't trust himself can never trust anhyone else.-Cardinal de Retz, Me'moires, 1718