Echolocation in Lake Champlain?

[kitakaze]

First, let me make it absolutely clear that in no way do I believe any manner of lake monster inhabits Lake Champlain, Loch Ness, the Okanogan, or any of the various locations about the world where people make such claims. No plesiosaurs, no long-necked seals, no thank-you.

That said, I was recently watching a Monster Quest episode on Champ in which it was reported that in 2003 recordings were made of echolocation or biosonar by Fauna Communications at three separate locations on Lake Champlain. Is the claim true? Is it a hoax? My only intention with this thread is that if this claim is true, it's a very odd, anomylous thing. I was hoping to get some more heads, some better heads on this than mine. Because, at first glance it looks like a neat mystery and we all like mysteries.

Here are the relevant links:

MonsterQuest: America's Loch Ness Monster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S5xFAavj1s&feature=related).

Fauna Communications' page regarding the recordings (http://animalvoice.com/lakechamplain.htm).

Invisible bigfoot underwater farts or not, I'd love to hear some thoughts.

[shadron]

You can start with the thought that Lake Champlain and the Finger Lakes, like the Great Lakes and most of the lakes in Canada, were all under a miles-thick glacier sheet up until less than 20,000 years ago (several different times in the last ten million years, as a matter of fact). That rules out the idea that they may have anything left over in them from the age of dinosaurs, or even most of the age of mega-mammals.

Lots of things cause acoustic echoes in SONAR gear; things like temperature differences in layers, schools of fish, anomalies in floor structure, and so on. Like anything else, these need to be interpreted by an expert, using more than one device or even technology to determine what it is that is being recorded.

[kitakaze]

Lots of things cause acoustic echoes in SONAR gear; things like temperature differences in layers, schools of fish, anomalies in floor structure, and so on. Like anything else, these need to be interpreted by an expert, using more than one device or even technology to determine what it is that is being recorded.Thanks, shadron. Again, zero contemplation on my part that there is any cryptid involved. What I would love to know is if temperature differance in layers, schools of fish, anomalies in floor structure could account for the recordings.

[LTC8K6]

I hear a fishing reel...

[kitakaze]

You can start with the thought that Lake Champlain and the Finger Lakes, like the Great Lakes and most of the lakes in Canada, were all under a miles-thick glacier sheet up until less than 20,000 years ago (several different times in the last ten million years, as a matter of fact). That rules out the idea that they may have anything left over in them from the age of dinosaurs, or even most of the age of mega-mammals.But here's the thing, shadron. It's a non-start. It's ridiculous to think that there's any animal existing in any of these lakes that fits the descriptions we're talking about. The biologist in the MQ episode put it the most unambiguously. An animal species surviving in sufficient numbers to reproduce would have a major impact on it's ecosystem. No silliness.

We're left to wonder if the recordings were legit or a hoax. That's the only question in my mind.

[William Parcher]

You can start with the thought that Lake Champlain and the Finger Lakes, like the Great Lakes and most of the lakes in Canada, were all under a miles-thick glacier sheet up until less than 20,000 years ago (several different times in the last ten million years, as a matter of fact). That rules out the idea that they may have anything left over in them from the age of dinosaurs, or even most of the age of mega-mammals.

A crafty cryptozoologist could take this and bonk you on the head.

They endured the glaciers like a lungfish adapted to the far north. These prehistoric animals buried themselves deeply into mud and estivated. Slept through the whole thing.

[manofthesea]

My question, so far, is related to the purported monster and it's capabilities.
Is there any evidence of amphibians or reptiles utilizing echo-location?

[William Parcher]

It's ridiculous to think that there's any animal existing in any of these lakes that fits the descriptions we're talking about.

A creationist would have no problem with Champs now living in the lake.

I wonder what they would think about Bigfoot. Creationists might not feel obligated to try to explain Bigfoot origins in terms of ancestral migration from Asia or a lack of fossil evidence.

Can we get a showing of hands of Creationists in Cryptozoology?

[kitakaze]

My question, so far, is related to the purported monster and it's capabilities.
Is there any evidence of amphibians or reptiles utilizing echo-location?No. Not at all.

[William Parcher]

Is there any evidence of amphibians or reptiles utilizing echo-location?

There is no need for evidence when you can simply propose that echolocation could have evolved anywhere in the animal kingdom and at any time. Oilbirds echolocate and they evolved from dinosaurs. Bang zoom... you've got a genuine echolocating Champ living in the lake. Somebody pop a cork because the cryptozoologists won the day again.

[kitakaze]

A creationist would have no problem with Champs now living in the lake.

I wonder what they would think about Bigfoot. Creationists might not feel obligated to try to explain Bigfoot origins in terms of ancestral migration from Asia or a lack of fossil evidence.

Can we get a showing of hands of Creationists in Cryptozoology?WP, that abstraction is not our problem. Bio-funkety-clicks is a problem, if they're real. Lake creatures are not a necessary. Something, human or otherwise are.

[William Parcher]

I'm just telling you about the cryptozoologists who are not going away soon. ;)

I haven't even checked your links yet.

[manofthesea]

The only known animals to utilize echo-location underwater are whales and dolphins. The readings were noted to be somewhere between belugas (I got a cool story about them) and orcas (killers).
The only actual animal to utilize echo-location in freshwater is the river dolphin, or blind dolphin, if I'm correct. This animal needs to be considered firstly, and analyzed and compared to the Champ readings. No matter how far fetched, that is the only known animal to fit the bill.
(Hehe) Maybe we could use a brazilian river dolphin's recorded echo-location as a comparison, just disregard the 'a cha cha cha' at the end.

[manofthesea]

There is no need for evidence when you can simply propose that echolocation could have evolved anywhere in the animal kingdom and at any time. Oilbirds echolocate and they evolved from dinosaurs. Bang zoom... you've got a genuine echolocating Champ living in the lake. Somebody pop a cork because the cryptozoologists won the day again.

How about a proto-mammalian?

[William Parcher]

Or a true mammal. If you propose that they really did record echolocation clicks from a Champ - you don't have to then lock yourself into any particular branch of the animal "tree". Dinosaur, reptile, amphibian, fish, bird, mammal... just take your pick. Fish and bird seem out-of-place until somebody mentions lungfish and penguins.

[Stellafane]

Or a true mammal. If you propose that they really did record echolocation clicks from a Champ - you don't have to then lock yourself into any particular branch of the animal "tree". Dinosaur, reptile, amphibian, fish, bird, mammal... just take your pick. Fish and bird seem out-of-place until somebody mentions lungfish and penguins.

I saw the show. The people operating the sonar detectors seemed to be working under the premise that perhaps Champ is some type of cetacean. It's extremely far fetched, but at least not completely impossible -- whales once lived in the Champlain Sea, the post-Ice Age forerunner to Lake Champlain. (Due to ground depression caused by the weight of the receding ice, the Champlain Valley was directly connected to the Atlantic via what is now the Saint Lawrence River.) They even dug up a complete whale skeleton in Charlotte, VT, which caused more than a little confusion when they found it back in the 19th century.

Of course, you have to accept the possibility that a breeding population of whales have lived in Champlain now for 10,000+ years without ever once having a fresh carcass float ashore, get caught in a fishing line, stay still long enough to be photographed, etc. You also have to wonder how air-breathing mammals survive in a lake that gets completely frozen over every winter. But at least the idea makes more sense than pleiosaurs.

[godless dave]

You'd also have to wonder what they eat in a lake whose fish population has been devestated by acid rain for the past 40 or 50 years.

[Stellafane]

You'd also have to wonder what they eat in a lake whose fish population has been devestated by acid rain for the past 40 or 50 years.

Zebra mussels, of course. Now they can feast forever.

[manofthesea]

I saw the show. The people operating the sonar detectors seemed to be working under the premise that perhaps Champ is some type of cetacean. It's extremely far fetched, but at least not completely impossible -- whales once lived in the Champlain Sea, the post-Ice Age forerunner to Lake Champlain. (Due to ground depression caused by the weight of the receding ice, the Champlain Valley was directly connected to the Atlantic via what is now the Saint Lawrence River.) They even dug up a complete whale skeleton in Charlotte, VT, which caused more than a little confusion when they found it back in the 19th century.
.

Hibernating blind dolphins? That's too much for me even. Unless perhaps not all the lake is completely frozen? They would have to maintain a spot during the freeze over.

Or, do narwhals use echo-location? Maybe they could drill through the ice and breath through the hole created. :)

My son trained at Lake Placid and said there was supposed to be one there also. Are those lakes connected?

[AK-Dave]

A few years ago, a whale carcas (beluga, IIRC) was found near Fairbanks, AK, about 1000 river miles from the ocean. Any evidence of echolocation in any freshwater body connected to the ocean must rule out whales visiting from the ocean before speculating on other possible sources, in my not-so-humble opinion.

-David

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

Any evidence of echolocation in any freshwater body connected to the ocean must rule out whales visiting from the ocean before speculating on other possible sources, in my not-so-humble opinion.

Agreed. There's also been some rumblings that seals may use echolocation. If so, we can add another suspect to our list. Sadly, this line of thinking is often ignored in favor of the "unknown marine creature visiting from the ocean" idea.

The "surviving zeuglodon" theory always cracks me up, seeing as how the popular image of Champ and the "creature" depicted in the Mansi photo (http://csicop.org/si/2003-07/monster-fig1.jpg) doesn't look like how a Basilosaurus is supposed to look (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Basilosaurus_illustration.jpg).

Interested parties can find some other skeptical takes on the so-called echolocation here (http://www.cryptozoology.com/forum/topic_view_thread.php?tid=5&pid=504194).

[shadron]

A crafty cryptozoologist could take this and bonk you on the head.

They endured the glaciers like a lungfish adapted to the far north. These prehistoric animals buried themselves deeply into mud and estivated. Slept through the whole thing.

Perhaps, if you can ignore how glaciers are built up and how they erode when moving. I would think anything slow enough to get caught in the snow storm that never melts will be spread thinly from Hudson Bay to Central Park. Some living things can estivate a long time, but I find 10-20,000 years doubtful in the extreme.

I'd want to see proof, and I might bonk back. Has, for example, anyone ever documented finding any creature frozen inside a bonafide glacier for 100 years or more ever come out of it alive? Anything the size of a dog or larger? Understanding the changes the ice goes through alone (ice crystals merging under pressure, for example) would, I would think, terminate the possibility.

[Correa Neto]

A few years ago, a whale carcas (beluga, IIRC) was found near Fairbanks, AK, about 1000 river miles from the ocean. Any evidence of echolocation in any freshwater body connected to the ocean must rule out whales visiting from the ocean before speculating on other possible sources, in my not-so-humble opinion.

-David
Just to add an extra tidbit on whales outside their "place":
In November 2007 a minke whale was found at the Tapajós River (a tributary to the Amazon River).
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/11/071121-AP-brazil-whale.html

I would go one step beyond and say before labelling pictures, footage and eyewitnesses reports as being evidence for "lake monsters" in freshwater bodies connected to the ocean, one must rule out visitors from the sea such as whales, sharks, sturgeons, otters, seals, dolphins, etc. Not to mention the usual suspects such as logs and waves.

Now, a question.
Please forgive my ignorance, but the signals from sonar probes such as those commonly used by fishermen (sport and pro) to locate fishes, could they be somehow be responsible for the records? Such devices are small, cheap and used at very small boats. How would such signals appear after distorted say, by temperature boundaries, echoes, etc.?

Well, maybe this will become another "bloop" sign... An unknown.

[William Parcher]

Of course, you have to accept the possibility that a breeding population of whales have lived in Champlain now for 10,000+ years without ever once having a fresh carcass float ashore, get caught in a fishing line, stay still long enough to be photographed, etc. You also have to wonder how air-breathing mammals survive in a lake that gets completely frozen over every winter. But at least the idea makes more sense than pleiosaurs.

I'm pretending to be a cryptozoologist (CZ) in this thread.

I'm much more familiar with Bigfoot than lake and sea cryptids, but I can apply the same principles of 'CZ logic' to either in argument. I do not have to play by the same rules as scientists or skeptics choose to. I am virtually convinced that there is a unclassified animal living in Lake Champlain. There is secondary evidence (video, snapshots, eyewitnesses, recorded ticks, etc.) to support this. I start with the assumption that the animal is there and can work backwards to try to explain it. It makes little difference if there are unexplainable or seemingly impossible obstacles because the animal is there and unanswered questions don't change that fact. It got there somehow whether you can explain it accurately or not. You don't need to know where apple trees came from in order to acknowledge that they exist right now.

Why no found carcass? I don't really know. It seems odd. But I will remind you that Bigfoot exists and we still don't have a carcass from that one either. There is beauty in the logic of cryptozoology. Part of it comes from knowing what it means for a living species to be unclassified by science. You do need a body for that. But Champ and Bigfoot are no different than mountain gorillas. They were unclassified until we got a body. For the entire history of humans on earth, gorillas remained unclassified until that moment. Yet this whole time they were right there in Africa. The body allowed us to answer all sorts of questions about these gorillas without even observing it alive. These are the kinds of questions that we cannot answer now about Champ and Bigfoot.

Champ may deal with a frozen lake by estivating. That may be related to how it got into the lake in the first place.

Perhaps, if you can ignore how glaciers are built up and how they erode when moving. I would think anything slow enough to get caught in the snow storm that never melts will be spread thinly from Hudson Bay to Central Park. Some living things can estivate a long time, but I find 10-20,000 years doubtful in the extreme.

I'd want to see proof, and I might bonk back. Has, for example, anyone ever documented finding any creature frozen inside a bonafide glacier for 100 years or more ever come out of it alive? Anything the size of a dog or larger? Understanding the changes the ice goes through alone (ice crystals merging under pressure, for example) would, I would think, terminate the possibility.

Assuming that estivation is the answer in the first place, I would speculate that a glaciation period like you describe would account for about a 95% mortality of estivating Champs. That may also help explain why Champs are not found in the Great Lakes but do now live in Lake Champlain.

Cryptozoologists are unbonkable. You can point out bad arguments or poor logic, but you cannot change the reality of Champ living in Lake Champlain right now. I won't make you eat crow when Champ is finally confirmed, but you may choose to do so of your own accord.

[manofthesea]

I kinda like the visiting whale idea. But isn't there a set of canals and locks leading to those lakes?
But as far as whale examples, the beluga in Fairbanks was excellent. What about that humpback way up the Columbia River a couple of years ago?

[William Parcher]

For these ones don't think visiting; think lost.

[bruto]

I'd be pretty surprised if something is echolocating in Lake Champlain, though I'd certainly be happy to find out that there is. I like the idea of Champ, I just don't think he's really there.

[manofthesea]

For these ones don't think visiting; think lost.

We use the term "wayward" also.

[kitakaze]

I was pleasantly surprised to see on this MonsterQuest episode Benjamin Radford discussing the Manzi photo and explaining how it is almost certainly a tree stump. Considering that over bigfoot, lake monsters are more his specialty I guess I shouldn't have been surprised. I wondered if he had commented on the echolocation recordings but had his comments edited out. I'm sure he's spoken on the matter and I'm interested to hear what he has to say on the subject.

The female biologist (can't remember her name and too lazy to check now) really did an excellent job of presenting the realistic, critical arguments. There really is no arguing with the absence of an ecological impact for this alledged unidentified species. The team of scientists taking years painstakingly three-dimensionally mapping Lake Champlain and never finding anything Champ-like isn't much hope for monster fans either.

When I hear suggestions of wayward whale I'm brought back to the accounts of the sweet, old woman who lives on the lake and claimed two separate land sightings of two different plesiosaur-type Champs approaching the light post outside her home.

[kitakaze]

We use the term "wayward" also.Neat coincidence. I didn't see this post before making my last one.

[bruto]

I kinda like the visiting whale idea. But isn't there a set of canals and locks leading to those lakes?
But as far as whale examples, the beluga in Fairbanks was excellent. What about that humpback way up the Columbia River a couple of years ago?Indeed, there are canals and locks at both ends of the lake. The path to the sea is pretty difficult to say the least, and for a whale or any other marine creature to get through the canals would be very unlikely. The lower lake is accessed through the New York State barge canal system, with 12 locks between the lake and the Hudson River. At the top is a canal that eventually leads to the St. Lawrence seaway, perhaps a better chance for visitors, but still a long shot.

Most of the hope for Champ rides on the lake's truly phenomenal depth, as well as its geological history, but it's a pretty dim hope these days. As Kitakaze points out, there's been a lot of underwater scanning and mapping done in recent years, both for biological and historical research, and while of course we must repeat the litany that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, the likelihood decreases as the research continues.

I've always thought the Manzi photo is of a cormorant. It's quite common to see cormorants form that shape in the water, especially when the reflections are just right. The scale is dubious, and the resolution poor enough, especially when there's a lot of sunlight on the water, to make it impossible to determine the true outlines of the object.

In answer to one of your other questions, Lake Placid is not connected with Champlain, and is at a different elevation.

The problem with William Parcher's suggestion of estivation is that if the many Champ sightings reported are real, then it's clear that the critter is not estivating or at least not very good at it. If the many Champ sightings are not real, then there seems no other reason to suspect that there is such a beast, since sightings, as far as I know, constitute the only evidence.

On the other hand, the greatest concentration of sightings is traditionally around Bulwagga Bay, which is relatively shallow, and near the boundary between the "broad lake" and the "creek," which also constitutes more or less the boundary between the portion of the lake that always freezes in winter and that which cannot be counted on to freeze at all some years; and this is also relatively near to the point where the depth of the lake becomes extreme, reaching 400 feet or more. So I suppose that if we postulate an estivating creature that goes deep in summer, but occasionally comes out of estivation to forage in shallower water, Bulwagga Bay would be a good place for that to happen.

[William Parcher]

The echolocation clicks are coming from a school of red herrings.

[AtomicMysteryMonster]

I was pleasantly surprised to see on this MonsterQuest episode Benjamin Radford discussing the Manzi photo and explaining how it is almost certainly a tree stump. Considering that over bigfoot, lake monsters are more his specialty I guess I shouldn't have been surprised. I wondered if he had commented on the echolocation recordings but had his comments edited out. I'm sure he's spoken on the matter and I'm interested to hear what he has to say on the subject.

The link I provided in my last post contains a link to his thoughts on the matter (It also has some information that Correa might find interesting in regards to his fish finder query).

[shadron]

Cryptozoologists are unbonkable. You can point out bad arguments or poor logic, but you cannot change the reality of Champ living in Lake Champlain right now. I won't make you eat crow when Champ is finally confirmed, but you may choose to do so of your own accord.

If and when, good sir, if and when.

Assuming that estivation is the answer in the first place, I would speculate that a glaciation period like you describe would account for about a 95% mortality of estivating Champs. That may also help explain why Champs are not found in the Great Lakes but do now live in Lake Champlain.

And what do you base that estimate on? As you know from my post, my "speculation" on the viability of a fair sized animal living through one hundred years of deep freeze in glacier conditions (let alone thousands) is zero. What proof? Inquiring minds want to know.

(I understand that I, perhaps, am in for it, as I've walked into this (cryptozoology) field cold with no more study than a scientist wannabe has available to himself in general. If so, I deserve my lot, but you'll have to come get it.)

[bruto]

The echolocation clicks are coming from a school of red herrings.No, it's invisible bigfeet out on the lake bass fishing. Rumor has it that they've been moving into the Adirondacks, but they've had to adapt their fishing habits, since there are no river salmon available. So they're sneaking into people's garages and borrowing their fish finders. Of course, they're invisible, so nobody sees this, but there's no arguing with logic, is there?

[kitakaze]

The echolocation clicks are coming from a school of red herrings.:D:D:D

[Kopji]

Did the program mention when in 2003 the echo noises were recorded?


http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/res/Task_rpts/1990/ppsaylor02-1.html

In 2003 9 moorings were deployed in Lake Champlain in June including temperature data loggers, ADCPs and sound sources for deep water RAFOS experiments. Drifter experiments were conducted in Lake Champlain in July. All moorings were recovered and RAFOS experiments completed in August.

[Correa Neto]

The link I provided in my last post contains a link to his thoughts on the matter (It also has some information that Correa might find interesting in regards to his fish finder query).

Oh, sorry, I missed that link.

So, fish finders may have had a role.

Something that I tink must always be remembered when it comes to lake monsters: Deep lakes tend to have their lower deeper parts unsuitable for anything other than bacteria (and the occasional frog, in Loch Ness case) due to lack of oxigen. The most productive areas are those where sunlight can still reach. This reduces a lot the space available for a breeding sustainable population of lake monsters.

[William Parcher]

I've always thought the Manzi photo is of a cormorant. It's quite common to see cormorants form that shape in the water, especially when the reflections are just right. The scale is dubious, and the resolution poor enough, especially when there's a lot of sunlight on the water, to make it impossible to determine the true outlines of the object.

IMO, that is not a cormorant or any other known bird species.

The problem with William Parcher's suggestion of estivation is that if the many Champ sightings reported are real, then it's clear that the critter is not estivating or at least not very good at it. If the many Champ sightings are not real, then there seems no other reason to suspect that there is such a beast, since sightings, as far as I know, constitute the only evidence.

Champ may not be an estivator, nor ever was. There are many sightings going back a long time. Much like with Bigfoot. They may all be wrong, but that would be pretty extraordinary. So the claim that they are all wrong should be backed up with extraordinary evidence that they are wrong.

So I suppose that if we postulate an estivating creature that goes deep in summer, but occasionally comes out of estivation to forage in shallower water, Bulwagga Bay would be a good place for that to happen.

Cool. We can add that to the growing list of hypotheses on how Champ lives his life.

Additionally, a frozen lake (the surface) is not much of a problem for an estivating air-breather that can adaptively respire through its skin while 'asleep'.

And what do you base that estimate on? As you know from my post, my "speculation" on the viability of a fair sized animal living through one hundred years of deep freeze in glacier conditions (let alone thousands) is zero. What proof? Inquiring minds want to know.

Well, there is no proof for this. It's a hypothesis. The 95% mortality rate estimation was based on the knowledge that the glaciation period was relatively long and harsh. It killed most Champs but left enough to prevent extinction. Some may have also 'woke up' in the Great Lakes but the population ultimately was not viable there. Champ bones might be discovered at the bottom of Lake Superior.

So, how did you come up with a 0% chance of Champ riding out the big freeze? Do you actually have facts about Champ physiology that would allow you to make your claim?

[bruto]

IMO, that is not a cormorant or any other known bird species.



Champ may not be an estivator, nor ever was. There are many sightings going back a long time. Much like with Bigfoot. They may all be wrong, but that would be pretty extraordinary. So the claim that they are all wrong should be backed up with extraordinary evidence that they are wrong.



Cool. We can add that to the growing list of hypotheses on how Champ lives his life.

Additionally, a frozen lake (the surface) is not much of a problem for an estivating air-breather that can adaptively respire through its skin while 'asleep'.



Well, there is no proof for this. It's a hypothesis. The 95% mortality rate estimation was based on the knowledge that the glaciation period was relatively long and harsh. It killed most Champs but left enough to prevent extinction. Some may have also 'woke up' in the Great Lakes but the population ultimately was not viable there. Champ bones might be discovered at the bottom of Lake Superior.

So, how did you come up with a 0% chance of Champ riding out the big freeze? Do you actually have facts about Champ physiology that would allow you to make your claim?

I'm not quite sure I agree with the idea that it requires extraordinary evidence to claim that all champ sightings are wrong, much as I'd like to believe that some are not. There are so many possible reasons for mistaking something else as the monster one has come to expect.

As for the Manzi photo, all I can say is that I've spent a lot of time on Lake Champlain over the years, and that shape shows up sufficiently often, especially when the waves are sparkling, that my wife and I joke about seeing another "champorant." Of course it could me any number of other things, but we'll never know, because the resolution of the photo is not good enough, and the scale is unknown. I've read many attempts to fix the scale using the waves as a reference, but again, having spent a lot of time on that lake, and seen how incredibly variable the waves can be, I am not persuaded.

With all that said, you can bet that I won't be going out on the lake without at least a reasonably decent camera, because if that critter does show up I would very much like to be the lucky SOB who gets the first clear shot!

[William Parcher]

Here it is...

http://csicop.org/si/2003-07/monster-fig1.jpg

I don't need to know the true size of the subject to say it isn't a cormorant. The neck and head are unlike a cormorant. The size of the neck/head is wrong relative to the exposed body. These red flags do not require knowing the true size of anything. They only require comparing the features that we can see. If this is a cormorant, then it's mother was a swan.

[bruto]

Here it is...

http://csicop.org/si/2003-07/monster-fig1.jpg

I don't need to know the true size of the subject to say it isn't a cormorant. The neck and head are unlike a cormorant. The size of the neck/head is wrong relative to the exposed body. These red flags do not require knowing the true size of anything. They only require comparing the features that we can see. If this is a cormorant, then it's mother was a swan.Maybe. I hope you're right. I hope it's neither a cormorant nor a log, but a Champ. I'm just not holding my breath.

[manofthesea]

I remember seeing it mentioned that there have been beluga bones/carcasses discovered in that area. Belugas are physically nearly identical to blind river dolphins. The difference being that river dolphins have adapted to freshwater. But just a brief glance at the different species makes it obvious.

[bruto]

I remember seeing it mentioned that there have been beluga bones/carcasses discovered in that area. Belugas are physically nearly identical to blind river dolphins. The difference being that river dolphins have adapted to freshwater. But just a brief glance at the different species makes it obvious.I think Stellafane or someone else brought that up earlier in the thread, but I'm on a borrowed dialup connection without the time to do too much digging. Read about Vermont's own whale (http://www.uvm.edu/whale/) here.

[William Parcher]

There is another hypothesis about how Champ could have ended up in Lake Champlain. It may have been carried there alive from the seaway by Bigfoots. Champs may have been on their menu and they might have intentionally introduced them to the lake as an alternative place to hunt them. Wild and hairy aquaculturists. Bigfoot still does live in the forests around the lake and seaway. People see them.

That sounds crazy until you really start to think about. We even have a factual precedent for this. There is a video showing a bear delicately transporting a shark in its front paws. Totally amazing and unexpected. A skeptic even chimes in with alternative hypotheses, but it is clear from the video that the bear is indeed carrying the shark. Some might even suggest a misidentification - because it may be a Bigfoot instead of a bear.

The video. (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail145.html)

Legendary legend?

[manofthesea]

There is another hypothesis about how Champ could have ended up in Lake Champlain. It may have been carried there alive from the seaway by Bigfoots. Champs may have been on their menu and they might have intentionally introduced them to the lake as an alternative place to hunt them. Wild and hairy aquaculturists. Bigfoot still does live in the forests around the lake and seaway. People see them.

That sounds crazy until you really start to think about. We even have a factual precedent for this. There is a video showing a bear delicately transporting a shark in its front paws. Totally amazing and unexpected. A skeptic even chimes in with alternative hypotheses, but it is clear from the video that the bear is indeed carrying the shark. Some might even suggest a misidentification - because it may be a Bigfoot instead of a bear.

The video. (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail145.html)

Legendary legend?

They're doing their best to make bigfooters look good. They better hope that echolocation pans out. I can see if it was the Pacific Ocean, but it's a lake. Kinda like having sasquatch tied down to Central Park.

[bruto]

They're doing their best to make bigfooters look good. They better hope that echolocation pans out. I can see if it was the Pacific Ocean, but it's a lake. Kinda like having sasquatch tied down to Central Park.True, it's just a lake, but it is a very big lake, and, as mentioned before, very very deep. Of course, it's also so deep that most reasonable theories suggest nothing much could be living down there anyway, but there's no denying that it's prodigiously deep, and pretty wild in places despite a good deal of civilization along most its shores. If there were lake monsters they'd probably find Champlain a pretty nice lake to do their monstering in.

By the way, one flaw in the whale theory is, I think, that if you credit sightings with any accuracy, they do not tend to support a whale's breathing style. And as usual, if you don't credit the sightings with accuracy, there's little other reason to suspect that there are monsters at all. I'll have to check on that. Somewhere I have Joseph Zarzynski's (spelling?) book on Champ. I'll have to review that, but I seem to recall that cetacean theories are pretty far down the list.

[manofthesea]

True, it's just a lake, but it is a very big lake, and, as mentioned before, very very deep.

By the way, one flaw in the whale theory is, I think, that if you credit sightings with any accuracy, they do not tend to support a whale's breathing style. And as usual, if you don't credit the sightings with accuracy, there's little other reason to suspect that there are monsters at all. I'll have to check on that.
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Okay, Manhanttan then.

More key is: belugas are white, river dolphins tend towards pink.

If anything, I'd personally suggest if people are seeing something strange, dark, occasionally breaking the surface, then it'd be a type of algal bubble like methane or something.

Unless, of course, those slimy bas----s are invincible.

[manofthesea]

I seem to recall that cetacean theories are pretty far down the list.

Did I forget to mention red glowing eyes and telepathy? That has to make it a Top 3.

[bruto]

Okay, Manhanttan then.

More key is: belugas are white, river dolphins tend towards pink.

If anything, I'd personally suggest if people are seeing something strange, dark, occasionally breaking the surface, then it'd be a type of algal bubble like methane or something.

Unless, of course, those slimy bas----s are invincible.That's always a possibility, though I'd bet more on partially submerged logs and stumps.

Lake monsters have one advantage over sasquatches: we more often have an excuse for our inability to pursue them. Bloop! He's gone, no tracks.

[bruto]

I just came across this little article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=509098&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770

It may not be the lake monster but it sure is a lake monster!