New sCAM guide for breast cancer patients in the UK

[Blue Wode]

Here is one of the latest items on the news page of The Prince’s Foundation for Integrated Health:


New guide to complementary therapies for breast cancer patients

Breast cancer patients interested in finding out how complementary therapies could help them alongside their conventional treatment could benefit from a new book launched by Breast Cancer Care.

http://www.fih.org.uk/news/new_guide_to.html




As you might expect, the booklet is full of misinformation. For example:

Acupuncture (page 8)

Acupuncturists work with thin needles which are inserted into the skin at specific points on the body’s meridians to help the energy flow become more balanced.
Healing and Reiki (page 12)

Reiki is perhaps the most commonly known type of healing, known as ki, flowing through the therapist to the client to help restore balance and wellbeing.
Homeopathy (page 16)

Homeopathy can help with a range of conditions relating to the medical treatment of breast cancer, including skin reactions to radiotherapy, some of the side effects of chemotherapy and scarring from surgery.
Reflexology (page 22)

Close attention will be paid to the zones in the feet that relate to the body area where you might be having problems.


How helpful are inaccuracies like that to people who are seriously ill?

You can read the entire booklet here:
http://www.breastcancercare.org.uk/docs/complementary_therapies_aug07_0.pdf

Apparently it was produced by Breast Cancer Care’s clinical specialists and reviewed by healthcare professionals and people affected by breast cancer – but the names of the specialists and professionals aren't given.

It seems to have similarities with the un-named “experts in the field” who developed the sCAM ‘competencies’ (knowledge and understanding) for Skills for Health – an outfit which is currently working with the Prince’s Foundation for Integrated Health. David Colquhoun has blogged about it here:
http://dcscience.net/?p=215

[tkingdoll]

AUGH!

Well, a sigh of relief that they aren't recommending patients don't have conventional treatment. However, we all know that's lip service.

What can we do about this? I mean, they are making unsubstantiated medical claims. How the hell is that even legal?

[Rolfe]

Well, there may be a weak argument for this. People with cancer are in a vulnerable condition. They are liable to run around searching for miracle cures. If they go to a completely unsanctioned SCAM-artist, there is a real risk they may abandon or neglect conventional treatment. However, if the SCAM is "integrated", with an emphasis on keeping the real treatments going, this danger is much lessened.

I'm still far from convinced that this hypothetical benefit is worth the harm of legitimising and validating these frauds, though.

Rolfe.

[Deetee]

I too am rather incensed by this.

I appreciate the psychological benefits that some of these CAMs can deliver to patients, and if I were ill I'd like nothing better than relaxing in a dim room filled with soothing music and pleasant smelling oils, getting a nice massage.

At least I assume this will help. (Being a true sceptic always keen to pursue lines of scientific enquiry, I propose conducting a trial to assess the possible benefits of this. Skepchicks can PM me for further information).

But the information about the therapies is quite misleading. In my professional capacity I will ask them for an explanation, and see what response I get. Watch this space.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I am always amazed that the wooists see no conflict behind the different "theoretical" underpinnings of the various "modalities". Even if one is right, they can't ALL be. Should I get my head thumped, my back twisted, my feet rubbed, be stuck with pins, drink distilled water, ingest "natural" herbs, etc, etc, etc? :boggled:

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

"Homeopathy can help..."

No it flippin' can't. That is what we call a Big Fat Lie. It is a direct claim unsupported by fact so is one of the easiest canards to kill.

[Mojo]

It seems to have similarities with the un-named “experts in the field” who developed the sCAM ‘competencies’ (knowledge and understanding) for Skills for Health – an outfit which is currently working with the Prince’s Foundation for Integrated Health.


Wouldn't 'incompetencies' be a better term?

[JennyJo]

Even if one is right, they can't ALL be. Should I get my head thumped, my back twisted, my feet rubbed, be stuck with pins, drink distilled water, ingest "natural" herbs, etc, etc, etc? :boggled:


Yes, you should, and just about 1199 other things that are also right.
;)

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Yes, you should, and just about 1199 other things that are also right.
;)

Sorry? :confused:

[JennyJo]

A friend of mine is working on a list of alternative therapies that all claim to be able to cure just about anything. At this moment, the list comprises more than 1200 items.

[Blue Wode]

A friend of mine is working on a list of alternative therapies that all claim to be able to cure just about anything. At this moment, the list comprises more than 1200 items.


Does she believe that the alt-med therapies work, or is she a skeptic? Either way, it would be interesting to know why she's compiling the list.

[JennyJo]

He wants to put the list on the internet. He hopes people will then understand how ludricrous these claims are. I mean, more than a thousand therapies and they all work for everything, that just can't be right.
He also hopes to get the most dangerous therapies declared illegal.

Only, I think people will not understand. Somehow, many people will go on believing in fairy tailes no matter what evidence is presented to them.

[Blue Wode]

He wants to put the list on the internet. He hopes people will then understand how ludricrous these claims are. I mean, more than a thousand therapies and they all work for everything, that just can't be right.
He also hopes to get the most dangerous therapies declared illegal.



Great! The very best of luck to him. :) It might be worth suggesting to him that he post the link to his work here when he's completed it. There’s sure to be some JREF readers who would help to give it further publicity.

Only, I think people will not understand. Somehow, many people will go on believing in fairy tailes no matter what evidence is presented to them.


Very true, but some do decide to make a U-turn and the more support that's available to help them, the better.

For those interested, Karla McLaren, a former New Age leader and author of nine titles on auras, chakras, and "energy", etc., chronicled her difficult transition to skepticism in this 2004 Skeptical Inquirer article:

'Bridging the Chasm between Two Cultures'
http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/new-age.html

It's well worth a read.

[JennyJo]

Thanks Blue Wode,

I'll tell my friend to post the link here.

And I'll read the article, things like this do give a person hope!

[Foolmewunz]

Hi Jenny....

See? Can I win the Million Dollar Challenge - I said you'd find a thread or two of interest in this section. (Nothing paranormal about it... some of the folks who post in this area are a little awesome.... one of them, Rolfe, is in this thread, but don't tell her I said, that okay? Probably will go right to her head. Truth is, though, that when I grow up I wanna be like Linda(FLS) and Rolfe!)

Welcome, again... and keep up the good fight! (No, I'm not stalking... I always read up on anything proposed as alternate therapies and I'm particularly worried that the Prince's Trust is so deeply involved in this worthless crap. Placebo effect or not, I'd sure like to see them rich kids put some of that expensive education to use and apply some damned critical thinking skills! I just spotted your posts when reading.)

[JennyJo]

Hi Foolmewunz,

Are you sure you haven't won the 1 million dollar challenge already...?
:)

I think its this whole prince of wales integrated medicine thing is preposterous. He can only get away with it because he is the pofw.

This was in The Times, issue 17 April 2008:

"The Prince of Wales is being challenged today to withdraw two guides promoting alternative medicine, by scientists who say that they make misleading and inaccurate claims about its benefits.

The documents, published by the Prince and his Foundation for Integrated Health, misrepresent scientific evidence about therapies such as homoeopathy, acupuncture and reflexology, say the authors of a new evaluation of alternative treatments.

In a letter to The Times, Edzard Ernst, Professor of Complementary Medicine at the University of Exeter, and Simon Singh, a science writer and broadcaster, call on the Prince to recall the publications, one of which was produced with a £900,000 grant from the Department of Health."


O dear! Poor pofw! :)

How can a solution with not even one molecule of the active agent left in it, possibly work?

I find it mindboggling that a well-educated person should believe such a thing.

[GreyICE]

I'm more than happy to help people placebo themselves. After all, the effect does work. I draw the line at spending money on it though.

[JennyJo]

Very sensible.

[Eos of the Eons]

I am always amazed that the wooists see no conflict behind the different "theoretical" underpinnings of the various "modalities". Even if one is right, they can't ALL be. Should I get my head thumped, my back twisted, my feet rubbed, be stuck with pins, drink distilled water, ingest "natural" herbs, etc, etc, etc? :boggled:

All of the above, of course, but start with... *digs around dusty old box* my light pen... er I, I mean cold laser. Hm. I don't want to look at chests though myself, so here's a self-application brochure with it *dusts it off*. That'll be 1200 bucks. *holds out hand*

[Eos of the Eons]

I'm more than happy to help people placebo themselves. After all, the effect does work. I draw the line at spending money on it though.

The placebo effect does not work on breast cancer. It may help people feel less nausea or pain after a real cancer treatment though.

[GreyICE]

The placebo effect does not work on breast cancer. It may help people feel less nausea or pain after a real cancer treatment though.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2616771.stm

And help them experience better quality of life.

[blutoski]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2616771.stm

And help them experience better quality of life.

Quoting from the article: Substantial improvements in symptoms and quality of life are unlikely to be due to placebo effects

[GreyICE]

Quoting from the article:

Quoting from the article:
In some trials as many as 21% of patients given a placebo reported a reduction in pain, or decreased use of pain medications.

Up to 27% showed an improvement in appetite, and up to 17% actually gained weight. Or, in other words, don't expect too much, but the effect does work.

Really, do I have to document the placebo effect for you? It's probably one of the best-documented effects in medicine simply because it crops up in virtually every double-blind study.

[Eos of the Eons]

Placebo effect is a psychological effect of FEELING better, or worse. It won't cure an actual non-psychological illness like cancer, or herpes, or anything else that is going to really damage you in the end.

I can tell someone they are going to die. If they believe me, and then stop eating and drinking... then what really kills them? Their own behaviour. My placebo/threat is what changed their behaviour and they died, making my statement the initial trigger. People can get less depressed, feel less pain, die, etc. due to placebo too (a placebo causes them to believe something, but that doesn't have an initial physiological effect; the behaviour of not eating and drinking or thinking they should feel better does), but whatever the placebo/sugar pill/statment was in the first place... that is not the cause of what happens in the end, it's the person's own behaviour, and it still WON'T cure anyone of cancer.

Placebo affects your thinking, which affects your behaviour. The behaviour will ultimately have an effect, and it can be a good or bad effect. You behaviour might be thinking you should feel happier, or your behaviour may be to stop eating and drinking. One will cause you to feel better, the other to kill you. That is the placebo effect. It won't cure you physically unless your behaviour leads you to change something. If you feel better about getting cancer treatment because someone says that radiation will cure it, then you get the radiation and get cured, then it is still the radiation that cures you, not just feeling that radiation is indeed a good idea for that particular case.

Placebo effect is limited depending on the variables, and it won't cure something like cancer without it leading to actual real treatments for that type of cancer.

Placebo effect can cause you to die of cancer if some quack tells you it won't help and to take some sugar pills instead. If you believe them and don't get the real treatment, then you will die instead of getting better.

Placebo is based on belief, leads to some changed behaviour, and ultimately will be good or bad.