Bobby Fischer Dead

[Walk The Line]

One of the greatest chess minds in history has passed away. Though he is famous for his 1972 match against World Champion Boris Spassky, he became known in recent years for his anti-semitism and rants against the U.S. government.

[Walk The Line]

It would help if I actually posted the link (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080118/D8U89EC80.html).

[Brown]

Fischer was a nut in so many ways, perhaps merely eccentric in others. But man, could he play.

[shuize]

Bye-Bye, Wackjob.

He praised the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, saying America should be "wiped out," and described Jews as "thieving, lying bastards." His mother was Jewish.

[shemp]

As a boy growing up in the 60's, I read his chess column in Boys' Life magazine, and my parents bought me his books "Bobby Fischer Teaches Chess" and "My 60 Memorable Games". He was responsible for my learning chess, and I went on to become a USCF Master, though my rating never got much above 2300.

DAMN YOU BOBBY FISCHER! I SHOULD HAVE BEEN OUT CHASING GIRLS INSTEAD OF STUDYING THE SICILIAN DEFENSE!

No, seriously, he was the greatest player ever until his insanity took command of him. His crazy, anti-semitic rants were the result of a sick mind, but he should be pitied, not hated. I for one will miss him.

[Puppycow]

I initially had an urge to say something uncharitable, but I agree with Shemp. He was sick and pitiable.
He looked like a homeless guy toward the end (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/18/AR2008011800851.html?hpid=artslot) (actually that's essentially what he was, I suppose, when these photos were taken).

[Walk The Line]

No, seriously, he was the greatest player ever until his insanity took command of him. His crazy, anti-semitic rants were the result of a sick mind, but he should be pitied, not hated. I for one will miss him.

Yes, Fischer is somewhat of a tragic figure. Had he not developed what appeared to be a form of mental illness, he could have been the most beloved chess ambassador in history, particularly in America. As it is, he will be remembered for his descent into madness from the pinnacle of his sport.

[BPSCG]

Fischer reminds me a bit of the great Canadian classical pianist, Glenn Gould. Gould was also brilliant in his field. People argue whether Gould's two recording of Bach's Goldberg Variations are the greatest classical recordings ever, or merely the greatest recordings of that particular work (I have a friend who would argue the former). Gould was also in many ways a very eccentric, even troubled man, and like Fischer, died young, at only 50 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Gould), though his eccentricities never plumbed the depths that Fischer's did. I have an old LP of Gould in a wide-ranging conversation about music with a Columbia Records producer, and he sounds like a perfectly rational, very intelligent, thoughtful, and engaging young man, far removed from the neurotic who wrote hourly diary entries about the color and shape of his bowel movements in his last years.

There's a saying that there's a fine line between genius and insanity. That's really not true - it's more like a vast, yawning gulf - but I wonder if there isn't some relationship. Are the brains of people who have stunning abilities in one individual area prone to being deficient in some other, more mundane area that affacts their ability to function socially?

Just wondering out loud.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

....the neurotic who wrote hourly diary entries about the color and shape of his bowel movements in his last years.

Is that not normal?

[Ian Osborne]

I wonder if Fischer was an autistic savant? If he saw a championship through to its conclusion, he'd usually win it, but he was just as likely to walk out in a hissy fit about the colour of the curtains. He was always both mad and a genius - only the proportions changed.

[NoZed Avenger]

The Pride and Sorrow of Chess, Part II.

[Overman]

What an epic tale. The Cold war was some crazy stuff. I

[CptColumbo]

I'm sorry I started a thread about this in History.

One of the greats, but wow what a loon.

Check out this recent photo, the years had taken their toll.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Bobby_Fischer_-_March%2C_2005_%

[alfaniner]

I wonder how many news reports will end this story with "Checkmate."

[BPSCG]

Is that not normal?Rebecca tells me that for you, yes, it is.

[Beerina]

I recall stories I've read from chess grandmasters who frequent the top rooms in online chess games. They can always tell when someone comes in and pretends to be awesome, but is secretly using a computer, since computers play somewhat differently. But every once in awhile they'd play some mysterious awesome guy who wasn't a computer who they thought was probably Fischer. There were only a handful of people who could play at that level, all known to each other, plus dopes channeling a computer.

[roger]

Is that not normal?It's extraordinarily odd given the ready availability of photographic and video equipment.

[Unalienable]

A very sad day for chess. He was the best there ever was.

[Checkmite]

No. Stop making excuses for him. Fischer did not suffer from any kind of "mental illness"; he was a dick, plain and simple. He is completely responsible for his actions and words.

[dudalb]

A Great Chess Player, perhaps the best of all time,but his reputation will rightly suffer because of his often obnoxious behavior and ,in his last years,he went totally batcrap crazy.
He reminds me of Ty Cobb,perhaps the best at his sport ever,but often contemtable as a human being.

[BPSCG]

No. Stop making excuses for him. Fischer did not suffer from any kind of "mental illness"; he was a dick, plain and simple. He is completely responsible for his actions and words.And you know this because...?

(I know you're an avid chess player...)

[Checkmite]

And you know this because...?


Because he exhibited no signs of mental illness? Unless, of course, you want to classify Holocaust denial (for instance) as a symptom of mental illness.

[sackett]

Beeps brings up an interesting point.

Great wit is sure to madness near allied,
And thin partitions do the bounds divide

said Mr. Dryden, probably not noticing that he was just uttering a folk belief. "He's so smart he's crazy!" was an exclamation I heard in my hayseed youth, and I doubt that Dryden first planted the idea.

You chess freaks will pardon me, but I don't think the word genius needs to include guys who are good at a board game. I'd rather require of a genius that he do something creative, i.e., leave an artifact behind that you have to call a work of genius. Darwin, Einstein, Tesla, Mozart, the guy who engineered the Buddha of Kamakura -- hell, we could all compile a list, and probably all agree on it.

But Bobby Fischer? Poor fellow. R.I.P.

[Senex]

When Fischer played Spasky in Iceland I was in grade school. I came home from school everyday and took out my little chessboard and followed the moves on the public television station. I may not be as strong a chess player as Shemp -- but I don't suck. Bobby Fischer was a heroic figure to me growing up. He may seem an easy person to mock -- but if you were a
young male American chess player in the early 70's he was a heroic figure as great as Randi. Chess is the greatest game and Bobby Fischer may be the greatest player.

[BPSCG]

Because he exhibited no signs of mental illness? Unless, of course, you want to classify Holocaust denial (for instance) as a symptom of mental illness.He just seemed so unstable and so angry, in so many ways. Maybe not bouncing-off-the-walls loonytoons, but certainly a very poorly-adjusted person. I remember when I was in college and he was playing Spassky for the world's championship, and everyone was saying the same thing: "How come the American has to be such an :talk034:? Makes me want to cheer for the Russkie..."

[Checkmite]

If I were Spassky, Fischer wouldn't have gotten away with the stunts he pulled in that tournament.

[Vic Vega]

Good riddance. An anti-semite and Holocaust denier is dead. The world is just a little better than it was yesterday.

[rtalman]

A very sad day for chess. He was the best there ever was.Perhaps the best American player, but he would not be fit to shine Alekhine's shoes.

[Checkmite]

No, Morphy was the best American player, for everyone's information.

[Skeptical Greg]

If I were Spassky, Fischer wouldn't have gotten away with the stunts he pulled in that tournament.

Like beating him outright in 7 games .. ( only losing 3 )

Yeah, I wouldn't put up with stunts like that either...

Here is a nice account of the match, and some of the story leading up to it..

http://www.chessclub.demon.co.uk/culture/worldchampions/fischer/fischer_spassky_match.htm

[El Greco]

Perhaps the best American player, but he would not be fit to shine Alekhine's shoes.

Alekhine was much more spectacular, but was he better ?

Anyway, chess masters are much less fascinating to me these days, knowing that I can watch an equally deep (and soon much deeper) game if I put my computer to play against itself.

ETA: Go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28board_game%29) is today's "advanced chess".

[shadron]

Like beating him outright in 7 games .. ( only losing 3 )

Yeah, I wouldn't put up with stunts like that either...

Here is a nice account of the match, and some of the story leading up to it..

http://www.chessclub.demon.co.uk/culture/worldchampions/fischer/fischer_spassky_match.htm

...and Spassky remembers. When contacted at his home in Paris by a reporter seeking a statement, he told the reporter, "It's bad luck for you. Bobby Fischer is dead." and hung up.

[Checkmite]

Like beating him outright in 7 games .. ( only losing 3 )

Yeah, I wouldn't put up with stunts like that either...

No, more like refusing to play (even forfeiting one game) unless all the cameras and spectators were removed. I wouldn't have let him get away with that nonsense.

[rtalman]

Alekhine was much more spectacular, but was he better ?Absolutely.

Comparing Bobby Fischer to Alekhine is akin to comparing David Blaine to Houdini. No contest.

[shemp]

Perhaps the best American player, but he would not be fit to shine Alekhine's shoes.

Since you've semi-Godwined the thread, I'll take it the rest of the way: Was Alekhine a Nazi? (http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/alekhine.html) by Edward Winter

You're right, Fischer would not have shined Alekhine's shoes. Instead, Fischer would have mopped the floor with him. Alekhine had his own problems, especially alcoholism. By the time of WWII, he was a washed-up drunkard who played along with the Nazis in order to survive. Fischer was a better and far more creative player at his peak than Alekhine ever was. Had they been contemporaries, a match between the two, with Fischer railing against his imagined enemies, and Alekhine staggering around and pissing on the floor, would certainly have been interesting.

[shemp]

Absolutely.

Comparing Bobby Fischer to Alekhine is akin to comparing David Blaine to Houdini. No contest.

Evidence of your own insanity.

[Checkmite]

I'd like to point out that, on the few occasions that Fischer played Tal, Tal usually beat him. But then, Tal usually beat everyone, so...

[pomeroo]

No. Stop making excuses for him. Fischer did not suffer from any kind of "mental illness"; he was a dick, plain and simple. He is completely responsible for his actions and words.


Fischer most assuredly suffered from a form of mental illness. According to his onetime close friend International master Bernard Zuckerman, he was paranoid and sadistic back in the early sixties.

[Checkmite]

Fischer most assuredly suffered from a form of mental illness. According to his onetime close friend International master Bernard Zuckerman, he was paranoid and sadistic back in the early sixties.


"Most assuredly", based on this anecdote? I see nothing to suggest it wasn't simply Fischer's dickish personality, even back then.

[NotJesus]

Fischer reminds me a bit of the great Canadian classical pianist, Glenn Gould. Gould was also brilliant in his field. People argue whether Gould's two recording of Bach's Goldberg Variations are the greatest classical recordings ever, or merely the greatest recordings of that particular work (I have a friend who would argue the former). Gould was also in many ways a very eccentric, even troubled man, and like Fischer, died young, at only 50 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Gould), though his eccentricities never plumbed the depths that Fischer's did. I have an old LP of Gould in a wide-ranging conversation about music with a Columbia Records producer, and he sounds like a perfectly rational, very intelligent, thoughtful, and engaging young man, far removed from the neurotic who wrote hourly diary entries about the color and shape of his bowel movements in his last years.

I'm reminded of George Szell's comment about Gould: "That nut is a genius!"

[robinson]

As a child and a young man, Bobby appears to have been what we might now call a classic case of Asperger's Syndrome. These days, he seems to have become a paranoid schizophrenic. The form his mental illness has taken is amazing and appalling, especially given his mom. Regina was a lefty; Bobby became ferociously anti-Communist. Regina was Jewish; although Bobby himself may be entirely Jewish, he has become rabidly anti-Semitic.
http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/001960.html

[pomeroo]

"Most assuredly", based on this anecdote? I see nothing to suggest it wasn't simply Fischer's dickish personality, even back then.


Without mentioning names, people in the chess world who had medical backgrounds were convinced that Fischer was seriously ill. That was certainly the conclusion the Russians reached as early as 1967.

[Skeptical Greg]

No, more like refusing to play (even forfeiting one game) unless all the cameras and spectators were removed. I wouldn't have let him get away with that nonsense.
So, did Spasky only beat him twice then ?

What would you do ? Refuse to play also ?

[Checkmite]

"Paranoid", yes - a side-effect of his overinflated sense of self-importance. But "schizophrenic"? That's a specific medical condition with precise indicators. I don't think anybody has come out with evidence that Bobby Fischer was hearing voices.

The notion that Fischer is "mentally ill" is based entirely on the virulent anti-semitic beliefs he has vocalized. In this modern day and age, we'd probably prefer that people who espouse those views had some sort of mental illness which makes them think that way, rather than try to understand how someone with a sound mind could throw off all reason and come to those conclusions.

But the fact is, they're just dicks.

[Checkmite]

What would you do ? Refuse to play also ?

Yes; I would offer a counter-ultimatim that if the organizers removed so much as a single camera or spectator chair, I would not play.

[rtalman]

Since you've semi-Godwined the thread, I'll take it the rest of the way: Was Alekhine a Nazi? (http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/alekhine.html) by Edward Winter

You're right, Fischer would not have shined Alekhine's shoes. Instead, Fischer would have mopped the floor with him. Alekhine had his own problems, especially alcoholism. By the time of WWII, he was a washed-up drunkard who played along with the Nazis in order to survive. Fischer was a better and far more creative player at his peak than Alekhine ever was. Had they been contemporaries, a match between the two, with Fischer railing against his imagined enemies, and Alekhine staggering around and pissing on the floor, would certainly have been interesting.Oh, brother. Here comes that tired old crap about Alekhine and the Nazis.:rolleyes:

Long after his peak in his 30s, Alekhine had his issues. Put them both at their peak, and Bobby Fischer would still be wearing a tinfoil toupee, and Alekhine, blindfolded, would beat Fischer like a drum.

[rtalman]

Evidence of your own insanity.Evidence of your ignorance.

[Skeptical Greg]

No, Morphy was the best American player, for everyone's information.At least Fischer would agree with you on that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Morphy
While Bobby Fischer considered Morphy to be the greatest player of all time, most commentators disagree.

[Skeptical Greg]

Long after his peak in his 30s, Alekhine had his issues. Put them both at their peak, and Bobby Fischer would still be wearing a tinfoil toupee, and Alekhine, blindfolded, would beat Fischer like a drum.

The stats don't back you up ..

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2354

It's mostly an opinion ( we all have one ) piece, but has Fischer and other players ahead of Alekhine..

Perhaps you have something more substantial to back up your opinion ?..

[Magic 9-Ball]

I see this as the tragedy of the two Fischer's, one an admirable, brilliant chess player who was among the alltime greats, and one a boorish, hateful person. Personally, I remember the Fischer - Spassky matches, and was fascinated with Fischer and his win at the time. However, what he turned into was pitiful.

Sort of like admiring OJ Simpson for his football exploits, but now...

I've read a lot on him since the Japan-move-to-Iceland events. By and large, the chess related info dealt with his chess exploits, but not so much with his recent problems. However, there was a wealth of info on his problems, along with audio files and such available. It's always a story of note when a formerly admirable person goes bad.

[rtalman]

The stats don't back you up ..

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2354

It's mostly an opinion ( we all have one ) piece, but has Fischer and other players ahead of Alekhine..

Perhaps you have something more substantial to back up your opinion ?..Nope, it's just my opinion based on my study of the game.

Just like in my opinion John Elway was better than Bret Favre, and that Ali was better than Tyson. I don't think empirical data works in these scenarios.

[Senex]

Good riddance. An anti-semite and Holocaust denier is dead. The world is just a little better than it was yesterday.

Fischer was jewish and suffered mental illness. The world is not a better place than yesterday. I always hoped he would pack his chessboard up and become champion again.

Bobby Fischer was a hero to me. Anyone who mocks him proves they are simple minded. Life isn't simple.

[Skeptical Greg]

I like this quote from the link I posted earlier ..


Thorarinson, President of the Icelandic Chess Federation [1]

"He stood looking out of the window in the Loftleider Hotel...In a rather weak moment, when Fischer was looking out of the window and said...

'The only thing I can do is to play chess'...and he seemed rather sad, but then there came a smile on his face, and he smiled and said 'But I do that rather well'

[nimzov]

A moment of silence in his memory at the Corus 2008 Tournament in Wijk aan Zee.

http://www.coruschess.com/gallery2.php?year=2008&gallery=fischerinmemoriam

nimzo

[dudalb]

Fischer was jewish and suffered mental illness. The world is not a better place than yesterday. I always hoped he would pack his chessboard up and become champion again.

Bobby Fischer was a hero to me. Anyone who mocks him proves they are simple minded. Life isn't simple.

That Life isn't simple does not excuse you becoming the crazed bigot that Fisher became in his last years.

[Skeptical Greg]

Nope, it's just my opinion based on my study of the game.

Just like in my opinion John Elway was better than Bret Favre, and that Ali was better than Tyson. I don't think empirical data works in these scenarios.

To be fair, this site calculates Alekhine with a slight advantage..

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=10240

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=19233

72.9% vs 72.6% ( wins + draws/2 ) / total games

Alekhine has many more games in the database - 1,879 vs 938

[a_unique_person]

Because he exhibited no signs of mental illness? Unless, of course, you want to classify Holocaust denial (for instance) as a symptom of mental illness.

It depends on what you mean by mentally ill. He wasn't a schizophrenic, but his ability to live a "normal" life was pretty well non existent. He was clearly paranoid, and highly over sensitised to ordinary stimulus. Holocaust denial by itself is not a symptom of mental illness, but you take it with his other behaviours, and you have someone who was clearly not "normal". Someone has already mentioned a possibility of autism. I think if you take someone who is borderline autistic or aspergers, and hook them up with a game like chess that can be totally absorbing and obsessional, then you can make them completely dysfunctional. The USA vs USSR chess match between him and Spassky was a good case in point. He was used as a convenient foil in a game that was much bigger than he was. While he won, he was a hero, when he cracked up, he was discarded and forgotten.

[Brown]

As a boy growing up in the 60's, I read his chess column in Boys' Life magazine, and my parents bought me his books "Bobby Fischer Teaches Chess" ...I still have his chess colums from Boy's Life, and a well-thumbed "Bobby Fischer Teaches Chess."

As for the Boy's Life column, Bobby was just one of the columnists. Bobby was set apart by the fact that he preferred algebraic notation over descriptive notation. Curiously, virtually all computers and instructors today use a version of algebraic notation (this was something Stanley Kubrick got wrong in "2001," as he had HAL play with descriptive notation). Bobby was also a bit more enigmatical than the other chess columnists.

As for "Bobby Fischer Teaches Chess," I had hoped that this book would be the first in a series of books discussing key chess tactics. Perhaps Bobby would write a book describing pins and skewers, for example, or illustrating ways to set up knight forks and double attacks. Or maybe Bobby would illustrate common mating themes other than back-rank mates. Sadly, this book was the first and last of its kind. I wonder if the "true" authors of the book were game to make other books but couldn't convince Fischer to lend his name to them?

[Skeptical Greg]

That Life isn't simple does not excuse you becoming the crazed bigot that Fisher became in his last years.But being mentally ill might..

He was mentally ill by any reasonable standard..

[Pardalis]

Good riddance.

[Walk The Line]

While he won, he was a hero, when he cracked up, he was discarded and forgotten.

I believe you characterize this inaccurately. If there was any reason he was "forgotten" it is because he made little attempt to defend his title, and was ultimately stripped of it. If you play no games as world champion, then yes, people will forget you.

[Unalienable]

Bobby Fischer was a hero to me. Anyone who mocks him proves they are simple minded. Life isn't simple.
Well stated. He is a hero of mine too.

Of course you recognize my avatar? I chose Fischer to be my avatar here, not because he was some great bastion of skeptical thinking (that would only hold true in the domain of the chessboard). But if you were to ask me to provide evidence of the supernatural--of course I would fail--but the closest thing I could offer you are Fischer's chess games. How a finite brain can intuit chess moves in a virtually infinite matrix of possibilities, that even modern supercomputers cannot grasp, is beyond my explanation. It's as if God was presiding over his games, and whispered the perfect moves in Bobby's ear.

[Skeptical Greg]

The Game of The Century
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1008361

What were you doing when you were 13 ?

Pardalis ?

Anyone ?

[Pardalis]

So he was a great chess player.

O.J. was a great football player. What's your point?

[Checkmite]

But being mentally ill might..

He was mentally ill by any reasonable standard..

Yeah, so, exactly which mental illnesses cause people to deny the Holocaust, praise the 9/11 attacks, and complain that the world is run by evil Jew conspiracies? Which of these debilitating mental ailments causes a loss of cognitive reasoning in all areas except when playing chess?

[BPSCG]

Yeah, so, exactly which mental illnesses cause people to deny the Holocaust, praise the 9/11 attacks, and complain that the world is run by evil Jew conspiracies? Which of these debilitating mental ailments causes a loss of cognitive reasoning in all areas except when playing chess?Okay, it's Friday night, Mrs. BPSCG is on her way to Dallas to visit her mom for her 80th birthday, and I'm on my first large glass of zin, having finished off the bottle of cabernet sauvignon, so I might regret this post in the morning, but...

What an acute, perspicacious question. I don't know if a simple question has ever made me revise an opinion before. Now it has. I agree - Fischer may have been a world-class :talk034:, but he was not mentally ill.

I raise my glass of Rosenblum zinfandel to you, Checkmite. Were you here, I would pour you a glass and give you a bottle to take home.

How I love this forum.

[Checkmite]

Bobby Fischer was a hero to me. Anyone who mocks him proves they are simple minded. Life isn't simple.

"I say death to President Bush, I say death to the United States. F--- the United States, f--- the Jews, the Jews are a criminal people, they mutilate their children, they are murderous, criminal, thieving, lying, bastards. They made up the Holocaust, there's not a word of truth to it. They are the worst liars and bastards. And now, what goes around, comes around, they're getting it back, finally. Praise God... Hallelujah, this is a wonderful day. F--- the United States. Cry, you crybabies! Whine, you bastards! Now your time is coming! The US is getting what is coming to it. This is just the beginning...The United States is a farce controlled by dirty, hook-nosed, circumcised Jew bastards." - Bobby Fischer on September 11, 2001

I view Fischer with nothing less than contempt. I will gladly and incessantly mock anyone who comes up with a screed like that; and anybody who thinks I am "simple minded" for doing so is an idiot.

[BPSCG]

It's as if God was presiding over his games, and whispered the perfect moves in Bobby's ear.Anyone who's seen Amadeus recognizes that idea. In the movie, Salieri comes to believe that the giggling, obscene, vulgar, irreverent, brash, obnoxious Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart is simply the unworthy instrument through which God dictates perfect music. The pious Salieri, recognizing his own inferiority (and being the only one who recognizes the greatness of the music pouring out of Mozart), vows to destroy God's chosen instrument, as revenge for not being chosen as that instrument himself.

Mozart died at the age of 35, about the same age that Fischer stopped playing chess on the world stage, giving more evidence that God is a sadistic SOB.

BTW, my tiny knowledge of Latin tells me that "Amadeus" means "God's beloved."

[Andronicus]

If you are interested in chess and Bobby Fischer, I highly recommend one of the top ten match books ever written, Yasser Seirawan, No Regrets: Fischer-Spassky 1992 (Seattle: International Chess Enterprises, 1992).

Seirawan does a great, almost move by move, analysis of the games. At the end of the book, Seirawan gives a 19 page non-chess, profile of Fischer.

[Darth Rotor]

There's a saying that there's a fine line between genius and insanity.

Yep.

Fischer and Gould were both loopy.

That said, they gave more than they got, for which I am grateful, as a beneficiary of what they gave.

DR

[Unalienable]

Instead of using the occasion of his passing as an opportunity to dig up his most vile shortcomings, let us celebrate this man for what he accomplished.

Take a trip with me back to the year 1970. Fischer, after a lukewarm start in the Interzonal Tournament, suddenly switches into overdrive and finishes the event with an incredible 7 consecutive wins.

For non-chess players, this may require some perspective. It is more stunning to win 7 chess games in a row than, for example, a baseball team winning 7 games in a row. This is because most chess games end without a winner at all: most games are drawn. What's more, half of your games you are forced to play with the Black pieces, which is a distinct disadvantage. To win with the Black pieces is a coup, but that was Fischer's style, to fight for the win in each and every game.

Fischer's winning streak now stood at 7 consecutive games.

Having won the Interzonal, he earned the right to participate in the Candidates matches. His first opponent was the legendary Soviet grandmaster Mark Taimanov, chess genius and piano virtuoso. With virtually unlimited resources to dedicate to the state-sponsored chess program, Taimanov had dozens of grandmasters at his disposal to help prepare him for this match. Teams of Soviet chess players (including the reigning world champion!) would be assigned to analyze Fischer's games, his weaknesses, and specific positions that might crop up during the games. They would then report back to Taimanov with summaries of their analysis. Meanwhile, Fischer would sit in his apartment with his chess set, or in the park with his pocket-set, and prepare alone for what would be the hardest match in his career.

The match was 10 games, and it was anybody's guess if Fischer could win against Taimanov, backed by the Soviet chess apparatus.

But then Fischer then did what was considered impossible. He won the first game, and the second, and third, fourth, and fifth--and upon winning the sixth game it became mathematically impossible for Taimanov to come back. The ten game match ended at only six games, and Taimanov returned home in shame.

Fischer's streak now stood at 13 consecutive games.

Upon Taimanov's return to the USSR we was labeled a national disgrace, not simply because he lost, but because he lost in a fashion that was considered virtually impossible. The Soviet chess authorities even suggested that his grandmaster title be rescinded, which would have been unprecedented.

Pundits claimed that such a thorough trouncing at the highest levels of chess was a feat that would never be repeated in chess history. How soon they would be proved wrong.

Fischer's next opponent was the Danish attacking genius, Bent Larsen. Again, the match was 10 games. Fischer won the first game. And the second. And the third, fourth, and fifth. And upon winning the sixth game, he had once again defeated a world class player by the perfect score of 6-0. In baseball terms, you could compare this to back-to-back no-hitters, although even that comparison falls short. The Soviets realized at this point that they owed Taimanov an apology.

Fischer's streak now stood at 19 consecutive games.

Fischer's next opponent was former world champion Tigran Petrosian. Upon winning the first game of the match, he won twenty consecutive game of chess at the very highest level of competition. This is a record which is unlikely to even be approached, much less surpassed.

Ever since the morning of history, when chess delighted the dwellers on the banks of the Ganges and the Indus, nobody else has accomplished so much to this art--this art form that comes in the disguise of a game.

Bobby Fischer is not dead. He genuinely achieved immortality.

[EGarrett]

I have an old LP of Gould in a wide-ranging conversation about music with a Columbia Records producer, and he sounds like a perfectly rational, very intelligent, thoughtful, and engaging young man, far removed from the neurotic who wrote hourly diary entries about the color and shape of his bowel movements in his last years.Fischer was exactly the same way. There's an mp3 online of a radio interview he gave a few years ago, maybe 2006...where he's ranting for 18 minutes about this Bank that he thinks stole his money...then the interviewer asks him about his favorite chess players of the past and it's like a switch goes off and he turns into a COMPLETELY rational and normal person. He even breaks out the phrase "let's not exaggerate" more then once. Then of course he mentions a player who was stripped of his grandmaster status and he goes off on how the "Jew-controlled press" is trying to strip him of his title and it's back to lala land.

Interestingly enough...when Jeremy Schaap (espn interviewer, son of Dick Schaap who apparently was a former friend of Fischer and Jewish)...asked Fischer exactly HOW he knew the Jews were controlling the world...he just stammered then said "I've read a lot of books." That knocked me for a loop. Usually racists, anti-semites etc. can't wait to quote to you whatever statistics they have that they think prove their case. Fischer having little to no actual justification for his hatred is bizarre indeed.

There's a saying that there's a fine line between genius and insanity. That's really not true - it's more like a vast, yawning gulf - but I wonder if there isn't some relationship. Are the brains of people who have stunning abilities in one individual area prone to being deficient in some other, more mundane area that affacts their ability to function socially?

Just wondering out loud.I'd say there's a fine line in PERCEPTION between them. Normal people can't make sense of a genius chess move until the rest of the game is played out...so it might as well be insane. The same is probably true for genius moves in just about any field. Genius goes from A to C without needing step B. Or, if you prefer, A to J without needing B-I.

Fischer was notorious for this. In the radio interview I mentioned above, Fischer quotes a passage from a book about himself...which quotes Mark Taimanov (who he 6-0'd) as saying that "Fischer's moves didn't make sense, at least not to the rest of us. By the time his plan was clear it was too late and we were dead."

As for his peculiarities...a pretty simple concoction of Asperger's Syndrome and extreme Isolation due to giftedness...combined with the sinking into one's own paranoia and overexcitability that comes along with it.

[EGarrett]

You chess freaks will pardon me, but I don't think the word genius needs to include guys who are good at a board game. I'd rather require of a genius that he do something creative, i.e., leave an artifact behind that you have to call a work of genius. Darwin, Einstein, Tesla, Mozart, the guy who engineered the Buddha of Kamakura -- hell, we could all compile a list, and probably all agree on it.

But Bobby Fischer? Poor fellow. R.I.P.You are the first person I've EVER heard attempt to argue that the word "genius" did not apply to Bobby Fischer. I also suspect you'll be the last.

Here's a statement for you to chew on. There's a very good chance that Bobby Fischer, at his peak, was better at chess than any human being had ever been at anything. Ever.

[Father Dagon]

Having won the Interzonal, he earned the right to participate in the Candidates matches. His first opponent was the legendary Soviet grandmaster Mark Taimanov, chess genius and piano virtuoso. With virtually unlimited resources to dedicate to the state-sponsored chess program, Taimanov had dozens of grandmasters at his disposal to help prepare him for this match. Teams of Soviet chess players (including the reigning world champion!) would be assigned to analyze Fischer's games, his weaknesses, and specific positions that might crop up during the games. They would then report back to Taimanov with summaries of their analysis. Meanwhile, Fischer would sit in his apartment with his chess set, or in the park with his pocket-set, and prepare alone for what would be the hardest match in his career.Reminds me of that Rocky movie...

[Checkmite]

Instead of using the occasion of his passing as an opportunity to dig up his most vile shortcomings, let us celebrate this man for what he accomplished.


Well, you can count the hits and ignore the misses all you want. I'll continue to consider each person as the sum of ALL his parts, not just the bright and shiny ones.

[KS_SKEPTIC]

No, Morphy was the best American player, for everyone's information.

Your 100% right about Morphy being the best American Chess player!!!

[MG1962]

Oh, brother. Here comes that tired old crap about Alekhine and the Nazis.:rolleyes:

Long after his peak in his 30s, Alekhine had his issues. Put them both at their peak, and Bobby Fischer would still be wearing a tinfoil toupee, and Alekhine, blindfolded, would beat Fischer like a drum.

Yeah right - thats why Alekhine ducked and weaved on the rematch with Capablanca - He was a bum that got lucky, and knew it

[MG1962]

Instead of using the occasion of his passing as an opportunity to dig up his most vile shortcomings, let us celebrate this man for what he accomplished.

Thank you for the wonderful tribute. People just dont grasp what chess means to Russians, it is not a game, but a reason to live. For a lone wolf American to take on that machine, and beat it, was a wonderful effort - perhaps one being slowly lost to history :(

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Yeah, so, exactly which mental illnesses cause people to deny the Holocaust, praise the 9/11 attacks, and complain that the world is run by evil Jew conspiracies? Which of these debilitating mental ailments causes a loss of cognitive reasoning in all areas except when playing chess?

Did he ever threaten to kill an air marshal?

:duck:

[luchog]

Bye-Bye, Wackjob.
He praised the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, saying America should be "wiped out," and described Jews as "thieving, lying bastards." His mother was Jewish.
Technically, if it's true, that makes him Jewish too, according to Jewish law. So I guess we can call him a self-hating jew.

[luchog]

Yes, Fischer is somewhat of a tragic figure. Had he not developed what appeared to be a form of mental illness, he could have been the most beloved chess ambassador in history, particularly in America. As it is, he will be remembered for his descent into madness from the pinnacle of his sport.
Nothing new there, though. A disproprotionate number of chess masters have been raving loonies; just not quite as destructively as Fischer. Like the one, whose name I forget, who hired a witch to sit in the audience and put a hex on his opponents.

[luchog]

Anyone who's seen Amadeus recognizes that idea. In the movie, Salieri comes to believe that the giggling, obscene, vulgar, irreverent, brash, obnoxious Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart is simply the unworthy instrument through which God dictates perfect music. The pious Salieri, recognizing his own inferiority (and being the only one who recognizes the greatness of the music pouring out of Mozart), vows to destroy God's chosen instrument, as revenge for not being chosen as that instrument himself.
Of course, there was almost no relation between the events and personalities in the movie, and those of the real-life persons and events they were very loosely based on.

[Pardalis]

Well, you can count the hits and ignore the misses all you want. I'll continue to consider each person as the sum of ALL his parts, not just the bright and shiny ones.

This reminds me of when Steve Irwin died, we weren't allowed to speak ill of him... It's like death made the people untouchable, as if there was somekind of death-censorship.

I remember when Kubrick died, I didn't want to dislike Eyes Wide Shut because I am a big fan of his.

But you know what?

It sucked.

[Pardalis]

Your 100% right about Morphy being the best American Chess player!!!

Maybe he meant chest player? ;)

[latent aaaack]

I think the responses of many on this board to his death and Irwin's death would be like after learning about 9/11 to say "those huge buildings were really ugly looking, America did some things I don't like, and New Yorkers are too loud when they're overseas, and a lot of American culture sucks." You could've said these things the day before to not look like a bunch of vultures.

[Pardalis]

Tryng to equate this to what Fisher said on 9/11? That's a rather odd comparison, as we all know one individual's natural death and 3000 innocent victims of a despicable act of barbarism are quite different.

Apples and oranges?

[latent aaaack]

Tryng to equate this to what Fisher said on 9/11? That's a rather odd comparison, as we all know one individual's natural death and 3000 innocent victims of a despicable act of barbarism are quite different.

Apples and oranges?

Using the opportunity of someone's death as a time to only say whether you liked or hated them is like saying people you don't like should be dead and then actually gloating pettily when they do die. I'm assuming it's a simpler thought process than that though - more like just seeing someone's name and commenting quickly. I for one think eccentric geniuses should definitely exist even if they hold offensive and wrong views, so yes it's sad when they die.

[Checkmite]

I think the responses of many on this board to his death and Irwin's death would be like after learning about 9/11 to say "those huge buildings were really ugly looking, America did some things I don't like, and New Yorkers are too loud when they're overseas, and a lot of American culture sucks." You could've said these things the day before to not look like a bunch of vultures.

Who's doing this? I've started more than one thread on this very forum where I've explained how much I dispise this guy before now. If I remember right, I started a thread way back when he first got arrested in Japan. I started a thread just few months ago, speculating on whether or not Fischer's twisted hatred of the Joos would allow him to subscribe to the 9/11 truth movement.

I've always hated the guy. It's not like I'm changing my tune, or seizing some kind of opportunity now that he's dead. I just had to say something to head off the flood of dead-butt-kissing that I anticipated from those who have for some reason insist upon actually honoring someone who has publically declared his hope for a day when the US will "round up all the Jews, and execute several hundred thousand of them at least".

Strange, that even if we take Fischer only as a chess player, he doesn't come out exactly smelling like a rose; after his "magical, wonderful" win in 1972, he never played in another tournament again, so long as he had his title, steadfastly refusing to defend that title because he was afraid of losing it. When FIDE had enough and decided it was time for another championship match, Fischer drafted a long list of absurd demands that FIDE strained to accomodate but was ultimately unable. When Fischer pulled his "I won't play, then" BS again, FIDE called him on it, and Karpov got the title; Fischer, the amazing sportsman that he is, threw a fit and refused to play chess again - though that didn't stop him from flapping his gums about how every world championship after his was prearranged.

[negativ]

I cannot for a nanosecond imagine any human endeavor more nerdy and geekish (not to mention inherently contraceptive) than arguing about chess players over the internet.

Soon, even mouth-breathing, D&D-playing, RenFaire-attending, furry cosplayers will be reading this thread and feeling 1% better about themselves.

If you are not interested in chess, then don't post in a chess-related thread and if you do post, be civil.

[Checkmite]

I cannot for a nanosecond imagine any human endeavor more nerdy and geekish (not to mention inherently contraceptive) than arguing about chess players over the internet.

Well, arguing over Star Trek, or Star Wars, or anything else with "Star" in the title.

But for your information, I'm not arguing about a chess player, I'm arguing about a Nazi sympathizer and national embarassment. So beat it.

[EGarrett]

I cannot for a nanosecond imagine any human endeavor more nerdy and geekish (not to mention inherently contraceptive) than arguing about chess players over the internet.Oh god, this is one of the most ignorant and worthless posts I've ever seen.

1. Bobby Fischer was a national symbol, a man who made history, and one of the most fascinating psychological cases we've seen. That's not just a "chess player."

2. Secondly, if you consider it a lame conversation...why are you reading the thread? Why are you posting in it? I'm sure there are threads and message boards everywhere devoted intensely all manner of subjects I couldn't care less about, and I don't post in them nor do I read them.

Soon, even mouth-breathing, D&D-playing, RenFaire-attending, furry cosplayers will be reading this thread and feeling 1% better about themselves.There is no purpose to your post, none, except to attempt to insult others. Sad.

[EGarrett]

Strange, that even if we take Fischer only as a chess player, he doesn't come out exactly smelling like a rose; after his "magical, wonderful" win in 1972, he never played in another tournament again, so long as he had his title, steadfastly refusing to defend that title because he was afraid of losing it.No. Did he put tremendous pressure on himself? I'm sure. But he acted that way before he won the title. He was notorious for his overexcitability (wikipedia it, the more intellectually gifted you are the more you get bothered by tiny or mundane distractions) and social maladjustment (which also increases the more your brainpower does), which combined to result in most of his demand-making and odd behavior pre-tournaments.

that didn't stop him from flapping his gums about how every world championship after his was prearranged.Victor Korchnoi said in an interview (I believe the clip is on Youtube) that some of Fischer's allegations about Soviet collusion were well-founded.

[negativ]

Oh god, this is one of the most ignorant and worthless posts I've ever seen.

1. Bobby Fischer was a national symbol, a man who made history, and one of the most fascinating psychological cases we've seen. That's not just a "chess player."

2. Secondly, if you consider it a lame conversation...why are you reading the thread? Why are you posting in it? I'm sure there are threads and message boards everywhere devoted intensely all manner of subjects I couldn't care less about, and I don't post in them nor do I read them.

There is no purpose to your post, none, except to attempt to insult others. Sad.

Sorry to contest your intellectual checkmate (haw), but your question in point 2 is answered by your statement in point 1. The thread started off being about point 1 (hence my interest), but became the chess nerd equivalent of "LOL your favorite band sux!!!11" because the INTERNET IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Notice that the thread title is "Bobby Fischer Dead", not "Bobby Fischer, Actually Sucky Chess Player Compared To Some Other Chess Player(s) So Let's Argue About Him, And I'm Glad He's Dead" so a VALID ARGUMENT could be made that it's YOU and the other contestants in the internet pissing match (http://www.marriedtothesea.com/061206/phoenix-blog.gif) that has erupted who are actually the ones contributing least to the thread.

[Senex]

Bobby Fischer not only beat Spassky -- he single handidly, without a friend in his hotel room-- crushed an evil empire at their own game. It's impossible to understate what he did.

As crazy as that SOB was he makes me proud to be an American!

[EGarrett]

Sorry to contest your intellectual checkmate (haw), but your question in point 2 is answered by your statement in point 1. The thread started off being about point 1 (hence my interest), but became the chess nerd equivalent of "LOL your favorite band sux!!!11" because the INTERNET IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Notice that the thread title is "Bobby Fischer Dead", not "Bobby Fischer, Actually Sucky Chess Player Compared To Some Other Chess Player(s) So Let's Argue About Him, And I'm Glad He's Dead" so a VALID ARGUMENT could be made that it's YOU and the other contestants in the internet pissing match (http://www.marriedtothesea.com/061206/phoenix-blog.gif) that has erupted who are actually the ones contributing least to the thread.The moderator said it best.

[EGarrett]

Bobby Fischer not only beat Spassky -- he single handidly, without a friend in his hotel room-- crushed an evil empire at their own game. It's impossible to understate what he did.

As crazy as that SOB was he makes me proud to be an American!That's another fascinating topic he brought up. The "Clubber Lang Effect" is indeed real. One motivated man, if he is talented enough, can reach greater heights than an entire team of people without real passion.

This is related, somewhat, to one of my favorite wikipedia articles...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_the_World. Garry Kasparov, on his own, played an entire message board of thousands of people all colluding and voting on what moves to make against him. It was a long, drawn out battle...but Kasparov ultimately defeated them. The power of one, indeed.

[shemp]

Nothing new there, though. A disproprotionate number of chess masters have been raving loonies; just not quite as destructively as Fischer. Like the one, whose name I forget, who hired a witch to sit in the audience and put a hex on his opponents.

This may be what you're thinking of: Karpov-Korchnoi World Championship Match of 1978 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korchnoi#First_World_Championship_match_against_Ka rpov)

The World Championship match of 1978 was held in Baguio in the Philippines, and deserves its reputation as the most bizarre World Championship match ever played. Karpov's team included a Dr. Zukhar (a well known hypnotist), while Korchnoi adopted two local renegades currently on bail for attempted murder (Source: Karpov – Korchnoi 1978, by Raymond Keene). There was more controversy off the board, with histrionics ranging from X-raying of chairs, protests about the flags used on the board, the inevitable hypnotism complaints and the mirror glasses used by Korchnoi. When Karpov's team sent him a blueberry yogurt during a game without any request for one by Karpov, the Korchnoi team protested, claiming it could be some kind of code. They later said this was intended as a parody of earlier protests, but it was taken seriously at the time.

Zukhar's job was to sit in the audience during games and stare constantly at Korchnoi. It drove Korchnoi crazy.

[Senex]

That's another fascinating topic he brought up. The "Clubber Lang Effect" is indeed real. One motivated man, if he is talented enough, can reach greater heights than an entire team of people without real passion.

This is related, somewhat, to one of my favorite wikipedia articles...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_the_World. Garry Kasparov, on his own, played an entire message board of thousands of people all colluding and voting on what moves to make against him. It was a long, drawn out battle...but Kasparov ultimately defeated them. The power of one, indeed.

You arEdited to remove inappropriate remark. The world against Kasporov? Moves by comittee? No, that doesn't work. Edited to remove inappropriate remark.

Keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks or insults to argue your point.

[Senex]

I don't have a copy of my brilliant attack on that rascal. Let me have my copy bck and I'll back off enough to be acceptable.

[Checkmite]

This is related, somewhat, to one of my favorite wikipedia articles...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_the_World. Garry Kasparov, on his own, played an entire message board of thousands of people all colluding and voting on what moves to make against him. It was a long, drawn out battle...but Kasparov ultimately defeated them. The power of one, indeed.

Now there's a great player. The guy was a machine - the youngest World Champion ever, the highest Elo ranking ever, kicking and taking names for 15 solid years. That was just crazy.

He's also half-Jewish. Heh.

[joobie]

Fischer reminds me a bit of the great Canadian classical pianist, Glenn Gould.

here, beeps: gould plays bach's sinfonias at home (http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/028010/f3/7535.ram) (real audio required).

[EGarrett]

You arEdited to remove inappropriate remark. The world against Kasporov? Moves by comittee? No, that doesn't work. Edited to remove inappropriate remark.

Keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks or insults to argue your point.I'm aware that pure vote doesn't work. The first attempt at this type of game (with Karpov) failed for exactly that reason. Don't assume the best in yourself (superior knowledge) and the worst in others (ignorance), that's the mistake that's fueling your personal attacks.

Anyway, it wasn't pure vote. There was a small group of highly ranked players recommending moves...an analysis tree was kept etc. You should read it, if you're interested in chess or just social experiments...it's fascinating.

[EGarrett]

Now there's a great player. The guy was a machine - the youngest World Champion ever, the highest Elo ranking ever, kicking and taking names for 15 solid years. That was just crazy.

He's also half-Jewish. Heh.I'd say, compared to Fischer, that Kasparov was greater in virtue (mainly long-term focus) but lesser in talent.

Fischer had 2 Jewish parents btw.

[Checkmite]

Fischer had 2 Jewish parents btw.

A fact that, whenever mentioned in his presence, was guaranteed to send Bobby into a maniacal, profanity-laced tirade.

[boloboffin]

Bobby Fischer spent the last part of his life castled. What a waste.

[EGarrett]

A fact that, whenever mentioned in his presence, was guaranteed to send Bobby into a maniacal, profanity-laced tirade.Yeah. I've listened to a bunch of his radio interviews and saw the ESPN piece on him before it was pulled off of Youtube. I could listen to them because he was so over-the-top with it, and basically threw out a bunch of unsupported accusations...so it came across as just empty hate...almost meaningless and cartoonish.

[EGarrett]

Bobby Fischer spent the last part of his life castled. What a waste.It's nothing new...

Having vanquished virtually all serious opposition, Morphy reportedly declared that he would play no more matches without giving odds of pawn and move.[5] After returning home he declared himself retired from the game and, with a few exceptions, gave up public competition for good. Unfortunately, Morphy's embryonic law career was disrupted in 1861 by the outbreak of the American Civil War. Opposed to secession, Morphy did not serve in the Confederate Army. During the war he lived partly in New Orleans and partly abroad, spending time in Paris and Havana, Cuba.

Possibly because of his antiwar stance, Morphy was unable to successfully build a law practice even after the war ended. His attempts to open a law office failed; when he had visitors, they invariably wanted to talk about chess, not their legal affairs. Financially secure thanks to his family fortune, Morphy essentially spent the rest of his life in idleness. Asked by admirers to return to chess competition, he refused.

[Checkmite]

The tremendous difference between Morphy and Fischer is, Morphy was not a professional player, and he didn't stop playing because of a tantrum. Although he sliced through all the world's best players of the time - up to and including Anderssen - there were no purses or titles to be won in that age, and Morphy never once thought of chess as anything more than just a game; he was never a serious, dedicated student, which makes his domination of the game more spectacular in my opinion.

But in point of fact, Morphy had always wanted to be a lawyer; and once he became the world's best player,that particular goal was achieved, and it was now time, in his opinion, to move on with life.

Fischer, on the other hand, dedicated every spare moment of his life to studying chess, and remained obsessed with it even after he took his ball and went home.

[EGarrett]

Apparently Fischer went into semi-retirement in the mid-1960's...so I'd hesitate to say that his disappearance was solely due to his haggling over the world championship rules.

I've noticed a pattern where people with extreme potential are also extremely good at doing nothing. They are capable of spending long portions of their life in complete idleness. (or perhaps it just appears that way compared to their achievements when they did focus?)

[Unalienable]

I'm sick of hearing Fischer criticized for not defending his title.

Fischer's "long list of demands" that his critics often bleat about was far smaller than a typical list of conditions you would see at any heavyweight prize fight. Lighting conditions, prize money guarantees, and so forth. The most controversial demand was the infamous 9-9 clause, which declared that if the match should become tied at 9 games to 9 games, instead of playing one last game "for all the marbles" that the match would be declared drawn. Some people claimed that this gave too much of an advantage to the champion, although simple mathematical analysis proves otherwise.

Fischer didn't run from Karpov. Karpov ran from Fischer. Fischer laid out his conditions, perfectly reasonable conditions, in a perfectly sane and fair manner. The Soviets knew they had only one way to regain "their" chess crown, and that was to abort the match altogether.

One of the "insiders", who later defected, was grandmaster Lev Alburt. He states:

Soviet Grandmasters privately scoffed at Karpov's chances in 1975. Most believed he would lose... and lose badly. ... Karpov knew he could hardly draw a game with Fischer, never mind winning one or two games. His only chance was to disrupt the match. So a whole arsenal of tricks was worked out, designed to upset the sensitive American, unaccustomed to such methods.

Since the Soviets were obviously not going to play against Fischer fairly, he retired, while calling himself "The Undefeated World Champion." And he was, until just a few days ago.

[El Greco]

Could someone please summarize what all this is about ? It looks so futile to me. Fischer was one of the greatest chess players ever, period. Arguing whether X or Y was better or worse than Fischer is an exercise in futility. Fischer also became a bigoted idiot, period. Whether one is happy that a bigot died or sad that a great chess player died, is down to personal viewpoints.

[negativ]

Could someone please summarize what all this is about ? It looks so futile to me. Fischer was one of the greatest chess players ever, period. Arguing whether X or Y was better or worse than Fischer is an exercise in futility. Fischer also became a bigoted idiot, period. Whether one is happy that a bigot died or sad that a great chess player died, is down to personal viewpoints.

Best watch yourself, lest you be moderated by a moderator who also has apparently not read the thread (moderately).

[Checkmite]

Fischer's "long list of demands" that his critics often bleat about was far smaller than a typical list of conditions you would see at any heavyweight prize fight. Lighting conditions, prize money guarantees, and so forth. The most controversial demand was the infamous 9-9 clause, which declared that if the match should become tied at 9 games to 9 games, instead of playing one last game "for all the marbles" that the match would be declared drawn. Some people claimed that this gave too much of an advantage to the champion, although simple mathematical analysis proves otherwise.

Oh yes, that "Karpov has to win 10 games to get the title, but I only have to win 9 to keep it" condition. Sure, yeah that was absolutely fair.

Fischer didn't run from Karpov. Karpov ran from Fischer. Fischer laid out his conditions, perfectly reasonable conditions, in a perfectly sane and fair manner.

Mmm hmmm. Yes, setting conditions such as "all toilets in the building must be raised by exactly one inch" is perfectly "sane and fair". But no, Karpov didn't "run" from anyone. It was decided by FIDE - which at the time was run by both Americans and Soviets - and not Karpov, that Fischer's demands were BS.

The World Champion title is owned by FIDE. They decide who gets it and who doesn't. The defending champion doesn't get to arbitrarily change the championship match's format just because he wants to, especially if that change makes it easier for him to keep his title and harder for him to lose it. He has to defend it under the exact same conditions that he won it. That is "fair".

[Skeptical Greg]

I'd like to point out that, on the few occasions that Fischer played Tal, Tal usually beat him. But then, Tal usually beat everyone, so...
Another mis-staement from you with an anti-Fischer Bias .. I's not nice to make stuff up .. It taints any credibility you might have aspired to, with regard to this subject ..

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?yearcomp=exactly&year=&playercomp=either&pid=19233&player=&pid2=14380

4 wins - 4 losses -5 draws ....


I'm really curious about these vitriolic blinders you have on, with regard to Fischer's chess skills ..

It hints of the bigotry that Fischer demonstrated .. ( for whatever reason Fischer's bigotry stemmed from )

[Checkmite]

Another mis-staement from you with an anti-Fischer Bias .. I's not nice to make stuff up .. It taints any credibility you might have aspired to, with regard to this subject ..

I don't need "credibility" when all I'm doing is quoting Fischer's own twisted words - they pretty much speak for themselves. But...

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?yearcomp=exactly&year=&playercomp=either&pid=19233&player=&pid2=14380

4 wins - 4 losses -5 draws ....

Wow, I'd never heard of game 8 before. You learn something new every day.


I'm really curious about these vitriolic blinders you have on, with regard to Fischer's chess skills ..

It hints of the bigotry that Fischer demonstrated .. ( for whatever reason Fischer's bigotry stemmed from )

Yes, my principled contempt for Fischer is truly just one step away from saying something like "All Jews should be arrested and executed by the hundreds of thousands". Way to go there, buddy.

[EGarrett]

I'm sick of hearing Fischer criticized for not defending his title.

Fischer's "long list of demands" that his critics often bleat about was far smaller than a typical list of conditions you would see at any heavyweight prize fight. Lighting conditions, prize money guarantees, and so forth. The most controversial demand was the infamous 9-9 clause, which declared that if the match should become tied at 9 games to 9 games, instead of playing one last game "for all the marbles" that the match would be declared drawn. Some people claimed that this gave too much of an advantage to the champion, although simple mathematical analysis proves otherwise.

Fischer didn't run from Karpov. Karpov ran from Fischer. Fischer laid out his conditions, perfectly reasonable conditions, in a perfectly sane and fair manner. The Soviets knew they had only one way to regain "their" chess crown, and that was to abort the match altogether.

One of the "insiders", who later defected, was grandmaster Lev Alburt. He states:

Soviet Grandmasters privately scoffed at Karpov's chances in 1975. Most believed he would lose... and lose badly. ... Karpov knew he could hardly draw a game with Fischer, never mind winning one or two games. His only chance was to disrupt the match. So a whole arsenal of tricks was worked out, designed to upset the sensitive American, unaccustomed to such methods.

Since the Soviets were obviously not going to play against Fischer fairly, he retired, while calling himself "The Undefeated World Champion." And he was, until just a few days ago.Karpov only gave himself a 40% chance of victory. It's pretty crazy for a guy on that level, with the amount of confidence you must have to be a champion, to give himself chances like that unless he knew he was outclassed and couldn't lie about it.

I don't need "credibility" when all I'm doing is quoting Fischer's own twisted words - they pretty much speak for themselves. But...

Wow, I'd never heard of game 8 before. You learn something new every day.

Yes, my principled contempt for Fischer is truly just one step away from saying something like "All Jews should be arrested and executed by the hundreds of thousands". Way to go there, buddy.Checkmite, you're taking your disgust at his over-the-top Anti-Semitism and trying to express it by diminishing him as a chess player. It seems pretty clear that you're moving into fallacious arguments (incorrectly quoting his record, incorrectly stating that he stopped playing to avoid losing his title when he was just doing what he'd always done before he'd won it, etc.).

If making idiotic mistakes or becoming insane and detrimental to yourself and others later in life negated what people achieved earlier...then there are a WHOLE lot of brilliant minds who you should delete from the history books along with Fischer. (Hemingway, Edgar Allan Poe, Howard Hughes, Isaac Newton, Glenn Gould, William Sidis, Stu Ungar) etc.

It also helps to study and understand things like racism, Anti-Semitism etc...until you really know why people believe them and why they are incorrect...then it's easier to not take them to heart and to just recognize them as simple fallacious or childish mistakes of thinking. If you need an example...H.P. Lovecraft was a known racist and named his cat "******-Man" (it starred out my "n-word")...but it doesn't stop me from appreciating his talent as a writer.

[latent aaaack]

I've noticed a pattern where people with extreme potential are also extremely good at doing nothing. They are capable of spending long portions of their life in complete idleness. (or perhaps it just appears that way compared to their achievements when they did focus?)

I can't think of any accomplished people like this, care to give example?

[EGarrett]

I can't think of any accomplished people like this, care to give example?Possibly because of his antiwar stance, Morphy was unable to successfully build a law practice even after the war ended. His attempts to open a law office failed; when he had visitors, they invariably wanted to talk about chess, not their legal affairs. Financially secure thanks to his family fortune, Morphy essentially spent the rest of his life in idleness. Asked by admirers to return to chess competition, he refused. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Morphy)
--------------
For the next 20 years, Berg had no real job, living off friends and relatives who put up with him because of his great charm. When they would ask what he did for a living, he would reply by putting his finger to his lips, giving them the impression that he was still a spy.[43] He lived with his brother Samuel for 17 years. According to Samuel, he became moody and snappish after the war and did not seem to care for much in life besides his books. His brother finally grew fed up with the arrangement and asked Moe to leave and even had eviction papers drawn up.[3] After being evicted from his brother's home, Berg moved in with his sister Ethel in Belleville, New Jersey, where he remained for the rest of his life.[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_Berg)
-------------------
After escaping back to the East Coast in 1921, Sidis was determined to live an independent and private life, and would only take work running adding machines or other fairly menial tasks. He worked in New York City and became estranged from his parents. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sidis)
-------------------
After the World Championship, Fischer did not play another serious game in public for nearly 20 years. He did not defend his title and public perception was reflected in the decline of interest in chess in the West in the following years. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer)
-------------------
The Last Supper was only finished after his patron threatened to cut off all funds. Mona Lisa took twenty years to complete. The Adoration of the Magi, an early painting, was never finished and his equestrian projects were never built.

His procrastination caused him much grief in later years. Despite his varied contributions, he felt he could have achieved much more. Given his talents, it is without doubt that more of his aspirations could have become a reality in his own time. So much was half-completed that he appealed to God, “Tell me if anything ever was done. Tell me if anything was done.” (http://www.ucalgary.ca/~steel/procrastinus/cases/cases.html)
----------------------
I'm currently searching up the quote by Charlie Kaufman (currently one of the most talented screenwriters in the world, and an extremely intelligent person), where he mentions that, at age 30...if he hadn't succeeded with sending his sample script into TV studios...he just "wasn't going to do anything" for the rest of his life.

[NoZed Avenger]

Oh yes, that "Karpov has to win 10 games to get the title, but I only have to win 9 to keep it" condition. Sure, yeah that was absolutely fair.


And how did it compare to the conditions that Karpov actually imposed once he was awarded the title?

For that matter, we can go back and look at Alekhine's match conditions, too.

[CptColumbo]

Best Game I ever studied was Boden's Mate. I even had it memorized at one point. It's why I avoid castling.

Schulder-Boden, London, 1853, a Philidor's Defense
1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 d6
3.c3 f5
4.Bc4 Nf6
5.d4 fxe4
6.dxe5 exf3
7.exf6 Qxf6
8.gxf3 Nc6
9.f4 Bd7
10.Be3 O-O-O
11.Nd2 Re8
12.Qf3 Bf5
13.O-O-O? (13.Bd5 is better) 13...d5!
14.Bxd5?? (moving into a forced mate; much better is 14.Rde1) 14...Qxc3+
15.bxc3 Ba3#

[Checkmite]

It also helps to study and understand things like racism, Anti-Semitism etc...until you really know why people believe them and why they are incorrect...then it's easier to not take them to heart and to just recognize them as simple fallacious or childish mistakes of thinking. If you need an example...H.P. Lovecraft was a known racist and named his cat "******-Man" (it starred out my "n-word")...but it doesn't stop me from appreciating his talent as a writer.


People can have ideosyncracies, even revolting ones such as racism. Hey, everybody's different.

But Fischer crossed a line. He wasn't just anti-semitic. He publically advocated full-scale genocide. This isn't a "simple" or "childish" folly; it's grevious. So grevious that, in my opinion, it can't just be ignored simply because he was a really good chess player. You can't compare the depths of Fischer's hatred to someone's alcoholism, or philandering. The guy shouted out some of the most vile and horrific things I've ever heard from any human being ever. And...this is just OK? "Oh well, genocide isn't that bad...he's a hero!" No. And, as I've stated earlier, I refuse to jump on the "he was 'ill'" bandwagon simply because it makes his disgraceful behavior a little easier to excuse.

[a_unique_person]

Yeah, so, exactly which mental illnesses cause people to deny the Holocaust, praise the 9/11 attacks, and complain that the world is run by evil Jew conspiracies? Which of these debilitating mental ailments causes a loss of cognitive reasoning in all areas except when playing chess?

That was apparently a response to the USA trying to stop him playing against Spassky, because of pointless, strong arm, cold war politics. He equally hated the Commies and the USA.

[Skeptical Greg]

....Currently burning in Hell.

Nice signature...

Nothing we didn't know about Fischer, but tells us a lot about you ...

[Unalienable]

Oh yes, that "Karpov has to win 10 games to get the title, but I only have to win 9 to keep it" condition. Sure, yeah that was absolutely fair.
As I am positive you are aware, the champion always enjoys an advantage. Botvinnik retained the title not by defeating Bronstein, but by achieving a 12-12 tie. Likewise, Kramnik defended his title with a 7-7 tie against Peter Leko. And with Fischer out of the way, Karpov began to make demands that FAR EXCEEDED anything Fischer could have dreamt of, such as the notorious "right to rematch" clause, where you effectively have to be defeated twice in a row to be permanently dethroned.

The fact that you are obviously a chess buff and know all of this in advance, and still make such fallacious arguments, only leads me to conclude that you are trying to intentionally spread disinformation.

Mmm hmmm. Yes, setting conditions such as "all toilets in the building must be raised by exactly one inch" is perfectly "sane and fair".
That legend is totally apocryphal. There isn't one whit of evidence that he ever made any such demand. It's a lie, plain and simple. The fact that this old canard comes up in so many different contexts (in one version, it was a demand that he made of a hotel in the 1960's) is characteristic of urban folkloke. For what it's worth, Fischer too has denied it.

I'll forgive you for being ignorant in that matter, since I've seen it in print so many times it's conceivable that you might actually believe it to be true.

Look, Checkmite, I don't want to fight here. I'm half Jewish myself. I don't like Fischer's comments during his later life any more than you do. But to take the occasion of a man's death, a man who gave the world so very much, and use it as an opportunity to malign him shows absolutely no class whatsoever.

Everybody has the right to criticize a man while he's alive, and should he die, once the period of grieving passes, it is not out of bounds to criticize him again. But during the occasion of his passing, while millions are grieving the loss, you come along with an upside-down eulogy that gloats over his renal failure while dredging up the worst dirt you can find on him, lies included. In my mind this is unforgivable, and highly hypocritical. Here you are attacking his character while revealing you have a seriously flawed character yourself.

[Unalienable]

And another thing Checkmite, if this quote that "advocates genocide" as you put it bothers you so very much, then why do you feel it necessary to change Fischer's words in your signature?

A little historical revisionism there, hhhhhmmmmmm? Why don't you actually put what Fischer really said in your quote instead of distorting it?

Oh, I fully agree that what Fischer said was vile--quite vile. But why do you find it necessary to take something vile and distort it to make it appear much worse?

Don't tell me you didn't do that on purpose. When I do a google search on the phrase "execute hundreds of thousand of Jews" I find no documents. I'm sure in a few days we'll find your posts at the JREF forum, and nothing else. If you're really going to go down this path at least don't lie about. If Fischer is as bad as you say he is, you shouldn't need to stuff new words in his mouth.

[Puppycow]

[never mind. posted in anger. take it back. no point wasting any more anger on the likes of bobby fischer.]

[EGarrett]

I think Checkmite is entitled to get angry when it comes to statements like Fischer made.

The important point that I'm making...and I think you're making to some degree, Unalienable, is that the logic of "Bobby Fischer was a sickening Anti-Semite, therefore he was overrated as a Chess player" doesn't work.

I also think it would help a lot if we reiterated that Fischer's Anti-Semitism was akin to an empty religious belief...he was challenged on it in public and had no justification whatsoever for what he was saying. (he just stammered and said "I've read a lot of books.") Furthermore, it never follows that you should do anything to an ethnic group because certain members do things you don't like. That's just simple racist fallacy and that's what the quote (if Fischer said it in any form) from Fischer was. It's also true that if there is some conspiracy to power in the world, it's not Jewish people exclusively nor does it divide along racial or ethnic lines (see: The Bush Family.) So, I don't think there's much need to let Fischer's words rile us up to much. It's some sort of empty, cartoonish ranting.

[Puppycow]

I think Checkmite is entitled to get angry when it comes to statements like Fischer made.

The important point that I'm making...and I think you're making to some degree, Unalienable, is that the logic of "Bobby Fischer was a sickening Anti-Semite, therefore he was overrated as a Chess player" doesn't work.

I also think it would help a lot if we reiterated that Fischer's Anti-Semitism was akin to an empty religious belief...he was challenged on it in public and had no justification whatsoever for what he was saying. (he just stammered and said "I've read a lot of books.") Furthermore, it never follows that you should do anything to an ethnic group because certain members do things you don't like. That's just simple racist fallacy and that's what the quote (if Fischer said it in any form) from Fischer was. It's also true that if there is some conspiracy to power in the world, it's not Jewish people exclusively nor does it divide along racial or ethnic lines (see: The Bush Family.) So, I don't think there's much need to let Fischer's words rile us up to much. It's some sort of empty, cartoonish ranting.

You are right. Getting riled up means he wins. I'm just going to forget about him. Who cares? He's gone, good riddance.

[Ian Osborne]

No getting riled up? If Skeptic was still posting here, he'd have got himself suspended by now!

[MG1962]

I think when discussing Fischer or other people who excelled in their field, you do need to compartmentalise a little - As an anti-American anti-semite etc, he was no more or less than the hundreds of thousands of other such people in the world

As a chess player - he was among the greats, and potentially the greatest ever. Should we remember him for his actions that didn't set him aside from from many others, or focus on the thing that made him special.

Many years ago I read a book "Dreamweaver" An author went around and interviewed a number of science fiction authors about their day to day life and how it fitted in with their chosen craft. In a few instances, some of these authors came across as total nut jobs, who had very extreme, and some instances, unhealthy views on a number of topics.

Does this stop me enjoying their fiction? Does anyone buy a book because an author is a nice guy, or because they like the work he produces. Maybe Fischer deserves the same curtesy - as a person, he was less than desirable - As a chess player he was almost without peer

[Checkmite]

As I am positive you are aware, the champion always enjoys an advantage. Botvinnik retained the title not by defeating Bronstein, but by achieving a 12-12 tie. Likewise, Kramnik defended his title with a 7-7 tie against Peter Leko. And with Fischer out of the way, Karpov began to make demands that FAR EXCEEDED anything Fischer could have dreamt of, such as the notorious "right to rematch" clause, where you effectively have to be defeated twice in a row to be permanently dethroned.

We can "tu quoque" all we want; I don't think I ever implied that any of the people you mentioned were "better than Fischer"; I'm just talking about Fischer. But if you insist, I will certainly agree with you that Fischer was no better than Botvinnik, Kramnik, or Karpov when it came to making unreasonable and occasionally unfair demands.

The fact that you are obviously a chess buff and know all of this in advance, and still make such fallacious arguments, only leads me to conclude that you are trying to intentionally spread disinformation.

I thought "tu quoque" was the fallacious argument being made here - but I'm not the one who made it.

That legend is totally apocryphal. There isn't one whit of evidence that he ever made any such demand. It's a lie, plain and simple. The fact that this old canard comes up in so many different contexts (in one version, it was a demand that he made of a hotel in the 1960's) is characteristic of urban folkloke. For what it's worth, Fischer too has denied it.

I'll forgive you for being ignorant in that matter, since I've seen it in print so many times it's conceivable that you might actually believe it to be true.

Fair enough.

Look, Checkmite, I don't want to fight here. I'm half Jewish myself. I don't like Fischer's comments during his later life any more than you do. But to take the occasion of a man's death, a man who gave the world so very much, and use it as an opportunity to malign him shows absolutely no class whatsoever.

Everybody has the right to criticize a man while he's alive, and should he die, once the period of grieving passes, it is not out of bounds to criticize him again. But during the occasion of his passing, while millions are grieving the loss, you come along with an upside-down eulogy that gloats over his renal failure while dredging up the worst dirt you can find on him, lies included. In my mind this is unforgivable, and highly hypocritical. Here you are attacking his character while revealing you have a seriously flawed character yourself.

Wait a second, now. OK, give me a break. "No class"??? Yeah, only a serious ***hole wouldn't give a rabidly-genocidal anti-Semite a break when the poor man dies.

OK, if Fischer's mother were here, and I attacked him, THAT would be classless. If his wife were here, or some old girlfriend that still really loved him. Maybe his best and closest friend, or something.

But you are just like me. Someone who's never met the guy, who really knows absolutely nothing about him except what you've read in books, newspapers, websites, and the like. You, just like me, have formed an opinion about him, and our respective opinions, based as they are on pretty much the same information, are equally valid and equally important.

Now he's dead, sure - but that fact doesn't make your third-hand opinion about Fischer any more important, valid, or "socially acceptable" than mine for a given length of time simply by virtue of the fact that your opinion of him happens to be "positive", while mine happens to be "negative". Claus once tried the same quasi-religious "don't speak ill of the dead" argument-from-emotion on me; I didn't buy it then, and I don't buy it now.

And another thing Checkmite, if this quote that "advocates genocide" as you put it bothers you so very much, then why do you feel it necessary to change Fischer's words in your signature?

A little historical revisionism there, hhhhhmmmmmm? Why don't you actually put what Fischer really said in your quote instead of distorting it?

Oh, I fully agree that what Fischer said was vile--quite vile. But why do you find it necessary to take something vile and distort it to make it appear much worse?

Don't tell me you didn't do that on purpose. When I do a google search on the phrase "execute hundreds of thousand of Jews" I find no documents. I'm sure in a few days we'll find your posts at the JREF forum, and nothing else. If you're really going to go down this path at least don't lie about. If Fischer is as bad as you say he is, you shouldn't need to stuff new words in his mouth.

At first this incensed me; but upon consideration, I discovered you were right - the quotes contained in my signature don't seem to appear anywhere on the internet. So, I understand your skepticism.

The quotes in my signature were transcribed by me directly from an audio clip, an interview featuring Bobby Fischer, given by a radio station in the Philippenes, a couple of hours after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. The audio clip can be heard here:

Part One:
B5xXEi3qncw

Part Two:
i0O4GDF2D_k

The quotes in my signature are all taken from Part Two. To my knowledge, the entire interview hasn't been transcribed on the web yet. I haven't changed any of Bobby's words.

[Checkmite]

I think when discussing Fischer or other people who excelled in their field, you do need to compartmentalise a little - As an anti-American anti-semite etc, he was no more or less than the hundreds of thousands of other such people in the world

As a chess player - he was among the greats, and potentially the greatest ever. Should we remember him for his actions that didn't set him aside from from many others, or focus on the thing that made him special.

See, I cannot do that. As I've said before, every man is the sum of all his parts, not just the pretty ones; spewing hate and advocating genocide doesn't become OK, or even "not as bad", for no other reason than because the guy happened to be good at chess.

If Bobby Fischer had done something which directly saved hundreds of lives, or kept a major charity from going under, or championed some other kind of tremendous humanitarian cause - OK, I can see something like that possibly eclipsing what he ended up doing. But he didn't do anything even close to so grand. He was good at playing a game. So, he got lots of other people interested in playing the game. But outside the dimension of that game, he didn't accomplish anything meaningful. That's not good enough to offset what he later did.

[Skeptical Greg]

That's not good enough to offset what he later did.
Exactly what did he do ?

Besides running off at the mouth, he didn't do anything ... ( after giving up chess )

The only reason you are even aware that he spouted the deranged filth he did, is because he was a chess prodigy ..

You're not by any chance related to Fred Phelps are you ?

[Ian Osborne]

You're not by any chance related to Fred Phelps are you ?

I'm with you rather than Checkmite on this thread, but this comment was uncalled for. :(

[robinson]

I don't know who Fred is, but Checkmites rabid anti-antisemitism is ugly. Let it go man. If it was ugly then, it is ugly now.

[Skeptical Greg]

I'm with you rather than Checkmite on this thread, but this comment was uncalled for. :(

As opposed to :

( Bobby Fischer is ) ..." Currently Burning In Hell " ...

[linusrichard]

I'm not glad he's dead (I'm more of an "any man's death diminishes me" type), and I don't think he's in Hell (but only because I don't think there is one), but still -- I feel like the epitaph on Fischer is "Chess genius who happened to be a raving anti-Semite" when it should be "Raving anti-Semite who happened to be a chess genius."

Being good at what you do - even being incredibly great at what you do - should not give you a pass at being a basically vile human being. This is doubly true when what you do incredibly well is - and let's be honest here - play a game.

[robinson]

Hell is for woos.

I didn't really know he hated Jews until this thread. I guess a Jew hating Jews must really bug some Jews. They seem to really hate Jews who hate them.














Which might explain some of the hatred here, between Jews.

[Ian Osborne]

As opposed to :

( Bobby Fischer is ) ..." Currently Burning In Hell " ...

I didn't endorse that comment either.

[robinson]

I've been looking at the championship games. I could have taken him. :D

[Skeptical Greg]

......... This is doubly true when what you do incredibly well is - and let's be honest here - play a game.What do you do incredibly well ?

Do you make a living at it ?

What makes it more worthwhile than a game ?

[EGarrett]

He was good at playing a game. So, he got lots of other people interested in playing the game. But outside the dimension of that game, he didn't accomplish anything meaningful. That's not good enough to offset what he later did.And Leonardo Da Vinci was good at drawing pictures...

Anyway...I'm sorry, Checkmite...but "Bobby Fischer was a raving anti-semite, therefore Bobby Fischer was an insignificant person and/or did nothing of note" is not valid logic either.

You're still expressing your disgust at Fischer's anti-semitism in invalid ways.

[EGarrett]

I didn't really know he hated Jews until this thread. I guess a Jew hating Jews must really bug some Jews. They seem to really hate Jews who hate them.Why wouldn't they? It's betrayal...

[Checkmite]

Exactly what did he do ?

He advocated genocide and denied the Holocaust. OK, so doing those things is not really a big deal in your opinion - fine. But it is in mine.

The only reason you are even aware that he spouted the deranged filth he did, is because he was a chess prodigy ..

Sure. And the only reason anyone is aware that David Irving spouted similar filth is...

...

...?

You're not by any chance related to Fred Phelps are you ?

That's even better than the "no class" comment. It's funny you should mention him, though; while we're on the subject, how about a Fred Phelps quote?

"Homosexuals and Jews dominated Nazi Germany...just as they now dominate this doomed U.S.A....The Jews now wander the earth despised, smitten with moral and spiritual blindness by a divine judicial stroke...And god has smitten Jews with a certain unique madness, whereby they are an astonishment of heart, a proverb, and a byword (the butt of jokes and ridicule) among all peoples whither the Lord has driven and scattered them...Jews, thus perverted, out of all proportion to their numbers energize the militant sodomite agenda...The American Jews are the real Nazis (misusers and abusers of governmental power) who hate God and the rule of law."

You won't have found me saying anything like that - feel free to do a forum search if you wish. The sentiments expressed by Phelps here, however, do sound strangely familiar, don't they? Hmmm....

[Checkmite]

As opposed to :

( Bobby Fischer is ) ..." Currently Burning In Hell " ...

Well, you're right. I posted it mostly out of spite; but since there's no such thing as Hell, it doesn't quite have the intended bite, does it? I'll take it out.

[EGarrett]

Checkmite, what did Leonardo Da Vinci accomplish that was meaningful, besides scribbling in his personal notebooks and drawing pictures?

[Checkmite]

Hell is for woos.

I didn't really know he hated Jews until this thread. I guess a Jew hating Jews must really bug some Jews. They seem to really hate Jews who hate them.

That might be true, and it might not. I'd have to wait for a Jew who dislikes Fischer to participate and share his thoughts here. As far as I'm concerned, Fischer's being Jewish is rather ironic, but I don't think it makes what he said any worse (assuming such is even possible).

Which might explain some of the hatred here, between Jews.

Where do you see this?

[Checkmite]

Anyway...I'm sorry, Checkmite...but "Bobby Fischer was a raving anti-semite, therefore Bobby Fischer was an insignificant person and/or did nothing of note" is not valid logic either.



I'm not really saying anything like that; you're combining seperate sets of ideas.

My original point was, "Bobby Fischer was a raving anti-semite." This statement was rebutted with, "Yeah, but that's OK because X".

I'm responding that "Well, X isn't really completely true, and even if it was, it isn't powerful enough to outweigh my premise." The argument indeed supports my premise, but it isn't a continuation of my premise, it's a counter-rebuttal of a different idea.

[EGarrett]

I'm not really saying anything like that; you're combining seperate sets of ideas.

My original point was, "Bobby Fischer was a raving anti-semite." This statement was rebutted with, "Yeah, but that's OK because X".

I'm responding that "Well, X isn't really completely true, and even if it was, it isn't powerful enough to outweigh my premise." The argument indeed supports my premise, but it isn't a continuation of my premise, it's a counter-rebuttal of a different idea.If your original point was that Bobby Fischer was a raving Anti-Semite, then no one has attempted to argue that point. Everyone agrees with you 100%.

But his raving Anti-Semitism does not, in any way, invalidate or stop me from saying "Damn, Bobby Fischer was a helluva chess player, probably the best ever." Or "Bobby Fischer was a source of national pride in the 1970's." Or any number of other, similar statements that you might view as positive.

The two things have nothing to do with each other. No one has said that Bobby Fischer was an all-around great person. But they are making other statements about his chess playing abilities, or what he accomplished otherwise that you seem to be rebutting or responding to by pointing out his Anti-Semitism.

[a_unique_person]

Hell is for woos.

I didn't really know he hated Jews until this thread. I guess a Jew hating Jews must really bug some Jews. They seem to really hate Jews who hate them.

He hated Jews, he hated Commies, he hated the USA.

[Checkmite]

Checkmite, what did Leonardo Da Vinci accomplish that was meaningful, besides scribbling in his personal notebooks and drawing pictures?

He invented things which were of practical use to people; for instance, a convex lens-grinding machine, and the notion of a strut-supported bridge, among other things. Da Vinci is usually celebrated for being a great artist, but his influence spread beyond the confines of the world of art.

He also inspired one of the worst books I've ever read, if that counts.

[EGarrett]

He invented things which were of practical use to people; for instance, a convex lens-grinding machine, and the notion of a strut-supported bridge, among other things. Da Vinci is usually celebrated for being a great artist, but his influence spread beyond the confines of the world of art.

He also inspired one of the worst books I've ever read, if that counts.But his major inventions were not implemented in his time...and ended up being discovered by others...and his minor ones didn't make much difference.

[Checkmite]

The two things have nothing to do with each other. No one has said that Bobby Fischer was an all-around great person. But they are making other statements about his chess playing abilities, or what he accomplished otherwise that you seem to be rebutting or responding to by pointing out his Anti-Semitism.

No, I don't feel that's a correct characterization of the debate here. The people I'm arguing with aren't making statements about his chess-playing abilities in a vaccuum; they're indicating that they think Fischer's proclivity toward anti-Semitism, holocaust denial, and his advocation of genocide are forgivable (or, if not forgivable, at least not as reprehensible as I make them out to be) because of his chess-playing abilities. The argument is, essentially, "None of that stuff matters compared to how awesome Fischer was at chess". I'm countering by maintaining that I don't think that's true; in my opinion, "Fischer's bad characteristics are more bad than his good characteristics are good", if that makes sense to you.

[Checkmite]

But his major inventions were not implemented in his time...and ended up being discovered by others...and his minor ones didn't make much difference.

That's true of many of his inventions; however, the ones I mentioned are credited directly to Da Vinci, during his time. The ones that were implimented after his time still count, because he influenced them. Are you trying to change the goalposts?

[EGarrett]

The people I'm arguing with aren't making statements about his chess-playing abilities in a vaccuum; they're indicating that they think Fischer's proclivity toward anti-Semitism, holocaust denial, and his advocation of genocide are forgivable (or, if not forgivable, at least not as reprehensible as I make them out to be) because of his chess-playing abilities.Who said that?

That's true of many of his inventions; however, the ones I mentioned are credited directly to Da Vinci, during his time. The ones that were implimented after his time still count, because he influenced them. Are you trying to change the goalposts?I asked what he accomplished besides scribbling in his notebook and drawing pictures. If you invent something and no one uses it, all you accomplished was scribbling in your notebook.

[Checkmite]

Who said that?

You, for one, opined only a few posts ago that while Fischer's genocide advocation and holocaust denial were "simple and childish", they weren't bad enough to eclipse his being good at chess.

I asked what he accomplished besides scribbling in his notebook and drawing pictures. If you invent something and no one uses it, all you accomplished was scribbling in your notebook.

Strut-supported bridges are used in all sorts of places. As once were a type of bobbin-winder, and the aforementioned convex lens grider, invented by Da Vinci. Everything is electric now - but when things weren't, a couple of Da Vinci's inventions got used.

[EGarrett]

You, for one, opined only a few posts ago that while Fischer's genocide advocation and holocaust denial were "simple and childish", they weren't bad enough to eclipse his being good at chess.No, they have nothing to do with how good he was at chess. That is the point.

Strut-supported bridges are used in all sorts of places. As once were a type of bobbin-winder, and the aforementioned convex lens grider, invented by Da Vinci. Everything is electric now - but when things weren't, a couple of Da Vinci's inventions got used.So, viewed as accomplishments outside of drawing and scribbling in his notebook...that's all his genius amounted to. An alternate bridge support, and a temporarily useful way to wind bobbins and grind lenses. Thus, I think that judging by pure accomplishment...it's pretty easy to discredit intellectual achievement.

[tomwaits]

Yeah, so, exactly which mental illnesses cause people to deny the Holocaust, praise the 9/11 attacks, and complain that the world is run by evil Jew conspiracies? Which of these debilitating mental ailments causes a loss of cognitive reasoning in all areas except when playing chess?

While I do find Fischer's opinions pretty disgusting and frightening, there is such a mental ailment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder
A person with delusional disorder can be quite functional and does not tend to show any odd or bizarre behavior except as a direct result of the delusional belief. "Despite the encapsulation of the delusional system and the relative sparing of the personality, the patient's way of life is likely to become more and more overwhelmed by the dominating effect of the abnormal beliefs". (Munro, 1999)

This is the condition that it seems most conspiracy theorists and tax protesters fall under. They may seem normal by all other standards, yet they have an obsession that someone is out to "get" them (or the world). It is mostly untreatable, since the patient refuses to believe that he has a problem and gets very angry when refuted.

It seems to me that the internet has changed the nature of this disorder. Previously, these people were marginalized because no one around them could relate to their whacky views. However, the invention of the internet has allowed delusional people from all over to talk to eachother and reinforce their whacky views (eg "I'm not the only one who believes this stuff! I must be on to something!"). It's a shame....but I doubt their distorted mind allows them to change.

[linusrichard]

What do you do incredibly well ?
I'm not sure if I do anything incredibly well. I don't see how that takes away from my point. I am uncommonly good at what I do, which is study law. But I don't see how that helps or hurts my point.
Do you make a living at it ?
Not directly, but it will hopefully lead to the practice of law, which I can make a living at. Again, I don't see how that helps or hurts my point.
What makes it more worthwhile than a game ?
That depends on whom you ask. Some might say that it's more worthwhile because lawyers help people defend their rights. Others might say it's less worthwhile because lawyers are parasites who foment and then feed off of people's disputes. Still others will say other things. But again, how does that relate to my point?

It doesn't matter if I happen to be incredibly good at anything, or if I can make a living off of it, or if what I do is more or less worthwhile than playing a game. My point is that if you are a vile human being, you can't make up for that by being incredibly good at anything, especially playing a game. I mean, let's say Bill Gates were an anti-Semite, Holocaust denier, 9/11 lover. At least he gives billions with a 'b' to starving children or whatever. Do you see how that's more worthwhile than playing a game?

And yet that still probably wouldn't redeem him. If Bill Gates were a vile anti-Semite, his charity work probably wouldn't make up for it. So if Bobby Fischer was a vile anti-Semite, why would being good at chess make up for it?

[Checkmite]

No, they have nothing to do with how good he was at chess. That is the point.

True, the two have nothing to do with each other. However, they are both equally relevant when considering a person as a whole person.

So, viewed as accomplishments outside of drawing and scribbling in his notebook...that's all his genius amounted to. An alternate bridge support, and a temporarily useful way to wind bobbins and grind lenses. Thus, I think that judging by pure accomplishment...it's pretty easy to discredit intellectual achievement.

You're not understand what I'm trying to say. Perhaps I'm not being clear, so I'll try a different approach.

Let's try to quantify things to make them easier to understand. I'll propose that people, over a lifetime, develop a reputation, and we'll measure that reputation with units that, for the sake of this argument, are called Cool Points.

Bobby Fischer, by winning a World Championship while simultaneously being American (certainly no small feat when it comes to chess, considering it's only been done twice), against the Soviet Union in the middle of the Cold War, earned an incredible +2500 CPs. However, by turning around and bashing his country (Death the the US, the US must be destroyed, etc), denying the Holocaust, and publically advocating genocide, Fischer earned -2950 CPs. The result is, Fischer's reputation is -450 CPs, an overall negative total. One can certainly acknowledge that Fischer was a good player and consider his achievements when calculating his reputation, but - and this is the underlying theme of my objections here - those achievements aren't enough to get Fischer out of the red.

This applies to Da Vinci as well. Perhaps you're right, and all Da Vinci has is his intellectual achievements. But Da Vinci is different from Fischer, in that he has no huge CP deficit to dig himself out of; those intellectual achievements are not overshadowed by anything atrocious, so Da Vinci skates to the finish line.

And this certainly isn't the first time in history that a person who, after a lifetime of accruing many, many CPs, made a few mistakes (or even a single mistake) which just totally negated them all, and then some.

Now, perhaps one could argue that the CP values I've attributed to Fischer's actions are completely arbitrary. Well, that's certainly true - we're dealing with reputation here after all, of which the observer's personal views and politics are a dependent variable. You could argue that you think Holocaust denial, advocating genocide, and etc. is only worth -300 CPs, putting Fischer clearly over the top. When we simplify things in this way, we find that what we're really arguing over here is whether chess is more important than personal humanity. I feel that it isn't. Your mileage may vary.

[Skeptical Greg]

.....

So if Bobby Fischer was a vile anti-Semite, why would being good at chess make up for it? It wouldn't ... I never said it would..

Can I get some extra straw for you ?

You said chess was ' only a game ' , as if making a living from it, was somehow less worthwhile than making a living from something else .. ( by default )

I disagree with that contention ...

[Skeptical Greg]

Fischer will ( ultimately ) be remembered, by those who remember him, for his chess skills.
His bigoted opinions and rantings will be a side note in historical records.. ( .... Oh, by the way etc.. )

In the chess community, his chess accomplishments are always overshadowed by his failure to live up to his potential .. His rantings are more of an embarrassment than a cause for condemnation..

Fischer's personal views and politics brought down no one, except himself and those who chose to remain close to him ..

Most of us learned early in life about the sticks & stones thing ...

[linusrichard]

It wouldn't ... I never said it would..

Can I get some extra straw for you ?


I don't need any straw. I wasn't attributing that argument to you, I was just restating my point - it seems like, in this thread and elsewhere, Fischer is remembered as a chess player first and a bigot second. This leads me to believe that, for many, the chess genius makes up for the bigotry. I wasn't attributing that to you specifically.
You said chess was ' only a game ' , as if making a living from it, was somehow less worthwhile than making a living from something else .. ( by default )
The "making a living" part has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I don't care if Bobby Fischer made a living selling appliances and was one of the world's greatest chess minds for free in his spare time. My point is merely this: If someone's going to try to say that being good at x makes up for being a rabid anti-Semite, then it is helpful if x is something more worthwhile than playing a game. I'm not criticizing him for playing a game, I'm just saying that it's not as redeeming as, say, feeding starving children would be.

[Senex]

Bobby Fischer was a cold war hero that Americans have seemed to have forgotten. Fischer had a positive affect on my life as well as thousands of others. I'm a darn good chess player who takes pride in playing chess well. I'm proud that the best chess player of all time is an American every bit as well that any person who believes in their country of origin is a fine place and their heroes/beliefs shouldn't be spoken poorly of.

[tomwaits]

How is he an American? He may have been at one point, but he renounced his citizenship. I would say that makes him NOT an American.

[Senex]

How is he an American? He may have been at one point, but he renounced his citizenship. I would say that makes him NOT an American.

Bobby Fisher is the best prototype of an American. Born and raised in American and a self-made success. Fischer was self-taught. He only renounced his citizenship when persecuted by a country that should have applauded him instead of critizing him. If Americans backed him he would have gone on to crush Kasporov instead of being on the lamb. A brilliant man with problems. Look past his problems and see what he accomplished. Who cares what his personal political beliefs were. What is his chess game? Do you care what my political beliefs are? If I could make your car get better gas mileage you wouldn't give a crap. Bobby Fischer metaphorically made my car get better mileage.

People like you screwed Fischer.

[Ian Osborne]

Fischer is remembered as a chess player first and a bigot second.

Perhaps that's because he was an excellent chess player but a very poor bigot?

When it comes to intolerance, he didn't picket funerals like Fred Phelps, he didn't write an influential alternate history like William Pierce and he didn't attempt to exterminate those he didn't like, as did Hitler. He couldn't even defend his rantings like the folk on Stormfront - as has been said previously, when challenged he stammered and mumbled about having read books.

So what we're left with is a guy who reached the very top in chess, taking on all-comers and overcoming Soviet dominance of the sport at the height of the cold war, but went on to say some offensive things later in life. Which should he be remembered for?

[Walk The Line]

it seems like, in this thread and elsewhere, Fischer is remembered as a chess player first and a bigot second. This leads me to believe that, for many, the chess genius makes up for the bigotry.

Fischer made his name as a chess player. It doesn't excuse the fact that he was a bigot, as it is obvious he was a very troubled individual. But we should recognize that the reason we care about his bigoted views is because of the fame he garnered when he was the best chess player in the world. If he had been an anti-Semite from nowhereville, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Checkmite]

If Americans backed him he would have gone on to crush Kasporov instead of being on the lamb.

Well, no. Fischer stopped playing chess the minute he won the world title. America was obsessed with him at the time. Fischer's self-imposed sudden obscurity had nothing to do with Americans "not backing him".

Who cares what his personal political beliefs were. What is his chess game? Do you care what my political beliefs are? If I could make your car get better gas mileage you wouldn't give a crap.

[insert obnoxious buzzer sound here]

It's obvious that's your attitude, but a lot of people don't share it.

[linusrichard]

So what we're left with is a guy who reached the very top in chess, taking on all-comers and overcoming Soviet dominance of the sport
Sport?
at the height of the cold war, but went on to say some offensive things later in life. Which should he be remembered for?
In my opinion, he should be remembered for the one that reflects more on his character.
Fischer made his name as a chess player. It doesn't excuse the fact that he was a bigot, as it is obvious he was a very troubled individual. But we should recognize that the reason we care about his bigoted views is because of the fame he garnered when he was the best chess player in the world. If he had been an anti-Semite from nowhereville, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Fair enough, but since we are having the discussion, it's not unreasonable to suggest that his bad qualities (for which he was not famous) should overshadow his good qualities (for which he was).

[Ian Osborne]

In my opinion, he should be remembered for the one that reflects more on his character.

So Kennedy should be remembered for shagging Marilyn Monroe? And Churchill for smoking and drinking too much?

[Senex]

[insert obnoxious buzzer sound here]

It's obvious that's your attitude, but a lot of people don't share it.

I'll give your commie leaning butt an attitude. Let's play a best out of three game chess tournament. I don't know where you live but I don't care if it takes ten years. At some point my Bobby Fischer loving ass will will beat your commie loving ass.

Agreed?

[Skeptical Greg]

... it's not unreasonable to suggest that his bad qualities (for which he was not famous) should overshadow his good qualities (for which he was).Sounds unreasonable to me ..
Bad behavior is celebrated in the multi billion dollar media industry ..

See Ian Osborne's last post ... I'm sure we could make a much longer list ..

[Skeptical Greg]

My point is merely this: If someone's going to try to say that being good at x makes up for being a rabid anti-Semite, then it is helpful if x is something more worthwhile than playing a game.
See my bold..

No one has said it makes up for it .. That is your and Checkmite's straw man ..


I'm not criticizing him for playing a game, I'm just saying that it's not as redeeming as, say, feeding starving children would be.I doubt that studying law is either ..

Sure you don't need some more straw ?

[Skeptical Greg]

Checkmite:
Fischer stopped playing chess the minute he won the world title.

Another false statement from you .

[Unalienable]

Checkmite:

I assumed that your quote was fallacious because in my mind I remembered the awful commentary by Fischer "they should round up a hundred thousand of the biggest Jewish ringleaders and execute them." Later in the interview he mentions executing hundreds of thousands of Jews again, the part that you latched onto. It sounds much worse when you leave the "ringleader" part out.

As awful as this is, it is not advocating genocide. In his warped worldview, he imagined a conspiracy of gigantic proportions where millions of Jews were working to enslave mankind. He never advocated killing anybody for their genetic heritage, he believed that there really were criminals, deserving of capital punishment, that numbered in the hundreds of thousands.

I see now that we were both right, and both wrong: your misquotation was much more minor that I had imagined at first, and I see that the tiny error you committed is now corrected in your signature. Well, it's your signature, if you want to bandy that about, that's your business.

To help put this in perspective, let's examine Fischer's sanity in his later years. In one radio interview Fischer claimed that he believes that the Jews are behind the illicit ivory trade in Africa, because they want to intentionally make all elephants extinct. The reason? Because the trunk of the elephant reminds Jews of the uncircumcised penis. I don't think he was joking--he was dead serious.

You say he was perfectly sane, just a dick. Well, I disagree--he was genuinely mentally disturbed. I hope he has finally found peace.

[Checkmite]

I'll give your commie leaning butt an attitude. Let's play a best out of three game chess tournament. I don't know where you live but I don't care if it takes ten years. At some point my Bobby Fischer loving ass will will beat your commie loving ass.

Agreed?

You're serious, aren't you?

[Senex]

You're serious, aren't you?

Yes, Im serious. Just as the NY Giants have gone on to crush their opposition I will come out of nowhere to beat my opposition.

[pomeroo]

Another mis-staement from you with an anti-Fischer Bias .. I's not nice to make stuff up .. It taints any credibility you might have aspired to, with regard to this subject ..

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?yearcomp=exactly&year=&playercomp=either&pid=19233&player=&pid2=14380

4 wins - 4 losses -5 draws ....


I'm really curious about these vitriolic blinders you have on, with regard to Fischer's chess skills ..

It hints of the bigotry that Fischer demonstrated .. ( for whatever reason Fischer's bigotry stemmed from )


Tal's lifetime score with Fischer was +2, 4 wins and 2 losses. Fischer's two wins at Herceg Novi were blitz games--they don't count.

[Checkmite]

Yes, Im serious. Just as the NY Giants have gone on to crush their opposition I will come out of nowhere to beat my opposition.

No, I mean about the commie-lover comments.

[Checkmite]

Checkmite:


Another false statement from you .

Really? So, between 1973 and his absolutely pointless match against Spassky in 1992, what tournaments did Fischer play in, and what was his record?

[Senex]

No, I mean about the commie-lover comments.

Yes, you have an opinion about something you don't have a clue about. Most people are as simple minded as yourself.

I'll play against people who worship Mr. Fishcer in good faith and I will humiliate anyone who wishes to play in bad faith.

[Checkmite]

Yes, you have an opinion about something you don't have a clue about. Most people are as simple minded as yourself.

OK that's fine - but what does it have to do with loving commies?

I'll play against people who worship Mr. Fishcer in good faith and I will humiliate anyone who wishes to play in bad faith.

Morphy was the best American player.

[linusrichard]

So Kennedy should be remembered for shagging Marilyn Monroe? And Churchill for smoking and drinking too much?
If you don't think leading major western nations relatively well through significant challenges reflects on the character of these men, then yes, I think that's how you should remember them. I have to admit, it's a comparison that never occurred to me: Churchill, JFK, Bobby Fischer... smoking cigars, having affairs, celebrating 9/11...
Sounds unreasonable to me ..
Bad behavior is celebrated in the multi billion dollar media industry ...
Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

No one has said it makes up for it .. That is your and Checkmite's straw man ..
No it isn't. Maybe you're not saying it makes up for it, but Senex sure is, I think it's reasonable to interpret Ian Osborne's comments that way, and I think others, in this thread and outside of it, have as well. Is Fischer great in spite of his lunatic anti-Semitism, or is he vile in spite of his amazing chess genius? I believe that there are plenty of people who would argue the former, and that's what bothers me.

Even if I am wrong, that doesn't transform my argument into a strawman. A strawman argument is one where the arguer intentionally constructs a bad argument and attributes it to his opponent for the purpose of easily disproving the bad argument and thus making his opponent look bad. If I am wrong, I have made a good-faith mistake about my opponents' argument - I have not invented the argument for my own dishonest purposes.

I doubt that studying law is either ..

Sure you don't need some more straw ?
I'm glad you've heard the word "strawman" somewhere, and have acquired a vague notion of what it might mean, but trust me, not every argument you don't like is a strawman argument. What you're actually accusing me of in this last bit is not strawman, but hypocrisy, which is not a fallacy at all. The fallacy actually belongs to you, and it's tu quoque, which can be considered a species of ad hominem. Your point fails because I've never claimed that being a law student is all that worthwhile, and I've never claimed that I am (or anyone else is) a great person because of law school performance and in spite of bigotry. If I had, you would be right to criticize, but still wrong to ask if I needed more straw.

[Skeptical Greg]

Really? So, between 1973 and his absolutely pointless match against Spassky in 1992, what tournaments did Fischer play in, and what was his record?

You said he stopped playing chess..

Interesting that you think five million dollars is pointless ..

[Skeptical Greg]

If you don't think leading major western nations relatively well through significant challenges reflects on the character of these men, then yes, I think that's how you should remember them. I have to admit, it's a comparison that never occurred to me: Churchill, JFK, Bobby Fischer... smoking cigars, having affairs, celebrating 9/11...

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? We were not discussing good vs bad , we were discussing whether someone's bad behavior should always overshadow their good.. You said it should in the case of Fischer..
Why ?
He was a much better chess player than a foul mouthed political extremist .. He didn't seem to have much following in that regard..

I say again..... He won't be remembered for the latter.. ( By the overwhelming majority of people who know who he was. )

I apologize if I incorrectly accused you of building straw men ..

[Skeptical Greg]

Tal's lifetime score with Fischer was +2, 4 wins and 2 losses. Fischer's two wins at Herceg Novi were blitz games--they don't count.

Checkmite said:
I'd like to point out that, on the few occasions that Fischer played Tal, Tal usually beat him.


Nice try though ...

[Ian Osborne]

I have to admit, it's a comparison that never occurred to me: Churchill, JFK, Bobby Fischer... smoking cigars, having affairs, celebrating 9/11...

And a comparison I never made. It was you who said Fischer should be judged on what best sums up his character. I merely asked if that applies to others, and apparently it doesn't. You seem to want to judge Churchill and Kennedy on their ability and achievements. Unlike Fischer.

Is Fischer great in spite of his lunatic anti-Semitism, or is he vile in spite of his amazing chess genius? I believe that there are plenty of people who would argue the former, and that's what bothers me.

It's perfectly possible to be vile and great, and as Fischer's political opinions - which were probably shaped by mental illness - had nothing to do with his qualities as a chess player, it's perfectly possible to celebrate the latter while condemning the former. And for the record, I do condemn the former.

[UserGoogol]

That's another fascinating topic he brought up. The "Clubber Lang Effect" is indeed real. One motivated man, if he is talented enough, can reach greater heights than an entire team of people without real passion.

This is related, somewhat, to one of my favorite wikipedia articles...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_the_World. Garry Kasparov, on his own, played an entire message board of thousands of people all colluding and voting on what moves to make against him. It was a long, drawn out battle...but Kasparov ultimately defeated them. The power of one, indeed.

And Deep Blue beat Kasparov. ^_^

[Checkmite]

And Deep Blue beat Kasparov. ^_^

Considering that Kasparov was better than Fischer, Deep Blue likely would've beat anybody.

[linusrichard]

And a comparison I never made. It was you who said Fischer should be judged on what best sums up his character. I merely asked if that applies to others, and apparently it doesn't. You seem to want to judge Churchill and Kennedy on their ability and achievements. Unlike Fischer.
I believe that Churchill's and Kennedy's achievements reflect on their characters. Unlike Fischer's. I don't like it when people get a pass on being awful people because they're good at their jobs. Bobby Knight is another great example of this - though not as good at his job as Fischer, nor as awful a person, it's still an example of someone getting a pass on bad behavior because he's good at what he does. When you get to Churchill and Kennedy, I think the nature of their "jobs" means that you can't separate the two out as easily as you can with someone like Fischer or Knight or me or probably you.

But you do make a fair point. If Fischer were merely guilty of telling a sexist joke now and then, instead of all the stuff he said, I'd probably, on balance, consider him a figure to be celebrated. So it's not just that you look at what reflects on his character and ignore abilities and achievements - I was being sloppy. You also have to look at the magnitude of them, the effect they have on the world around them, etc.

It's perfectly possible to be vile and great, and as Fischer's political opinions - which were probably shaped by mental illness - had nothing to do with his qualities as a chess player, it's perfectly possible to celebrate the latter while condemning the former. And for the record, I do condemn the former.

I think I agree with all of this. (Although I wouldn't be surprised if his chess talent were also shaped to some extent by mental "illness" - if he's to escape blame for his bigotry, should he be denied credit for his genius?)

But to go back to my original point - what bothers me is not that I think people should ignore or not celebrate the genius. It's just that I feel that they're minimizing the bigotry.

[tomwaits]

Bobby Fisher is the best prototype of an American.

The prototypical American renounces his American citizenship? :boggled:
What is an American other than someone who has American citizenship? It's not an ethnic group.

[Senex]

The prototypical American renounces his American citizenship? :boggled:
What is an American other than someone who has American citizenship? It's not an ethnic group.

Americans can be defined by how they love their constitution and chess players. Well, maybe only the former and maybe not by the Bush administration.

[Skeptical Greg]

............
But to go back to my original point - what bothers me is not that I think people should ignore or not celebrate the genius. It's just that I feel that they're minimizing the bigotry.

You still seem to be ignoring the fact, that if it wasn't for his chess prowess, you ( or very few people anywhere ) would even know he existed..

So you really should be celebrating his chess genius for giving you this opportunity to demonize him ...

[tomwaits]

Americans can be defined by how they love their constitution and chess players.

LOL! Whatever you say man.

[Ian Osborne]

So you really should be celebrating his chess genius for giving you this opportunity to demonize him ...

Exactly. Giving his views on world politics and race relations any credence at all is one step away from being an Appeal to Authority fallacy...

[pomeroo]

Checkmite said:



Nice try though ...


I'm not sure I'm following you. Tal did have a winning record with Bobby. Granted, all four of Tal's wins came in the 1959 Candidates Tournament when Fischer was only sixteen. Bobby's win at Bled 1961 was a good game, but his win in Curacao 1962 came when Tal was so ill he soon had to drop out of the tournament and be hospitalized.

[linusrichard]

You still seem to be ignoring the fact, that if it wasn't for his chess prowess, you ( or very few people anywhere ) would even know he existed..
I'm ignoring it because it's not relevant to what I'm saying. I accept that this is true.
So you really should be celebrating his chess genius for giving you this opportunity to demonize him ...
Exactly. Giving his views on world politics and race relations any credence at all is one step away from being an Appeal to Authority fallacy...
What fallacy? What credence? What is it you think I'm saying?

[Skeptical Greg]

I'm not sure I'm following you. Tal did have a winning record with Bobby. Granted, all four of Tal's wins came in the 1959 Candidates Tournament when Fischer was only sixteen. Bobby's win at Bled 1961 was a good game, but his win in Curacao 1962 came when Tal was so ill he soon had to drop out of the tournament and be hospitalized.

What don't you get about " ... on the few occasions that Fischer played Tal, Tal usually beat him. "

..... not being true ?

' Usually ' would mean he beat him more often than not ... Which is obviously not the case ..

I don't care if was in sanctioned competition or not ... He didn't USUALLY beat Fischer ... So it is inaccurate to say so ...

The appeal to pity doesn't count either ...

[Checkmite]

Exactly. Giving his views on world politics and race relations any credence at all is one step away from being an Appeal to Authority fallacy...

I haven't seen anybody say "I hate Bobby Fischer because he was right about Jews".

[Skeptical Greg]

Thus the " .... one step away " ....

[pomeroo]

What don't you get about " ... on the few occasions that Fischer played Tal, Tal usually beat him. "

..... not being true ?

' Usually ' would mean he beat him more often than not ... Which is obviously not the case ..

I don't care if was in sanctioned competition or not ... He didn't USUALLY beat Fischer ... So it is inaccurate to say so ...

The appeal to pity doesn't count either ...


Again, I'm having a tough time following you. The tournament record, not counting draws, is 4 wins for Tal; 2 for Fischer. How can you add blitz games? Tal and Bobby played hundreds of blitz games and Tal won most of them, as they were played before Fischer reached his peak. Tal and Petrosian were the best blitz players in the world when Fischer entered the international arena.

Why isn't it accurate to say that Tal usually beat Fischer? I'm not contending that Tal deserves to be ranked higher on the all-time list. When they played against each other, Tal was at his best and Fischer was a rising star.

[Skeptical Greg]

Why isn't it accurate to say that Tal usually beat Fischer?
Based on the documented games I could find, he didn't ..

I will take your word for it that Tal beat him in hundreds of blitz games..

O.K. ?


I apologize if I misrepresented you or anyone else .

[pomeroo]

Based on the documented games I could find, he didn't ..

I will take your word for it that Tal beat him in hundreds of blitz games..

O.K. ?


I apologize if I misrepresented you or anyone else .


No need to apologize. The fault lies with the source that listed two 5-minute games along with serious tournament games. You did nothing wrong.

[Herzblut]

Tal and Bobby played hundreds of blitz games and Tal won most of them, as they were played before Fischer reached his peak. Tal and Petrosian were the best blitz players in the world when Fischer entered the international arena.

Not for long. In 1970, Fischer won the (unofficial) world blitz championships in Montenegro. Fischer crushed the super-class field with 19/22, 4.5 points ahead of Tal. Unbelievable.

I wonder if Fischer was dominated in blitz by any player in the world after ~1965. He was always extremely good in blitz.

[Beerina]

Sounds it's like the heavyweight champ bragging because he beat up Mike Tyson when Tyson was 12.

[Skeptical Greg]

Here is an interesting read on Fischers blitz skills..

http://www.bobby-fischer.net/bobby_fischer_speed_chess.htm

An amusing excerpt:

How strong was Bobby? I remember the 1966-67 New Year’s Eve party at our home. At the time Bobby was competing in and winning his final U. S. Championship. Several grandmasters were present, and there was plenty of eating and drinking. By 2 a. m. Bobby wanted to play some chess, and he had in mind a certain strong international master. But Bobby had drunk quite a bit more than his opponent, and he insisted on playing blindfold blitz chess while the opponent had sight of the board. Still, he won effortlessly.

More serious:
All told, Bobby scored 40 ½ - 3 ½ or 92 percent in two major blitz tournaments – Herceg Novi and the Manhattan tournament – against players ranging from strong masters to world champions. Bobby was treating this elite as masters treat class-rated players in simultaneous exhibitions. What Hans Kmoch said about Fischer’s 11 - 0 sweep in the 1963-64 U. S. Championship – he congratulated second place GM Larry Evans for winning the tournament and Fischer for “winning the exhibition” – could now be said about Fischer’s treatment of world champions and candidates for the world championship.

[Unalienable]

I'll give your commie leaning butt an attitude. Let's play a best out of three game chess tournament. I don't know where you live but I don't care if it takes ten years. At some point my Bobby Fischer loving ass will will beat your commie loving ass.

Agreed?

Good for you Senex. I was considering challenging Checkmite to a few games to "settle" the debate. Of course that won't settle anything seriously, but it's no less serious than the rest of this so-called argument.

Of course anybody who knows anything about chess realizes that if you take two players and match them up it's unlikely that they are close to each other in strength so that a real fight ensues. Chances are the stronger player will blast away the weaker player 9 games out of 10.

I'm rated just over 2000 by USCF. That makes me better than 99% of chess players but I know plenty of people who slaughter me without even thinking about it.

[shemp]

Even in death, Fischer continues his bizarre behavior: Bobby Fischer's final bizarre act (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/main.jhtml?xml=/portal/2008/01/25/ftfischer125.xml)

The American chess prodigy's eccentricities didn't end with his death. As Neil Tweedie discovered in Reykjavik this week, the reclusive genius had arranged his own secret 'guerrilla' burial. Now its legality is being questioned

The grave was dug in secret as darkness descended over the white frozen landscape around the village of Hraungerdi, ready for Bobby Fischer's last getaway. Not even the minister whose churchyard it was knew of the funeral planned for the following morning.

Only five people attended the brief service early on Monday, conducted in the half-light before the short Icelandic day had properly begun. Among them was Gardar Sverrisson, Fischer's closest friend of the last few years and the man who had organised the digging of the grave without seeking the permission of Iceland's Lutheran Church or of the state authorities.

[nimzov]

Dick Cavett interviews Bobby Fischer. 1971.

http://video.on.nytimes.com/?fr_story=95f33f099e40d12cbd0dc7b72b93f053f3c77952

nimzo

[casebro]

BOBBY FISCHER DEAD.

still.

[EGarrett]

I'm glad this thread is still going.

True, the two have nothing to do with each other. However, they are both equally relevant when considering a person as a whole person.I'm not disagreeing with you that Fischer was a terrible person overall. I'm disagreeing with the idea that this must prevent or get in the way of those of us who want to study or discuss him as a chess player...or that it should in any way effect our judgement of him as a chess player. A guy can write a great mathematical formula on a chalkboard then go give a racist rant, but I might still want to discuss the formula and I should be able to...theres much to learn from it. And I'm not trying to be insensitive here...remember my example, HP Lovecraft was a known racist and even named his cat "******-man," but as a black person...I don't have any problem with people discussing him AS a writer, and I can do exactly that myself.

You're not understand what I'm trying to say. Perhaps I'm not being clear, so I'll try a different approach.

Let's try to quantify things to make them easier to understand. I'll propose that people, over a lifetime, develop a reputation, and we'll measure that reputation with units that, for the sake of this argument, are called Cool Points.

Bobby Fischer, by winning a World Championship while simultaneously being American (certainly no small feat when it comes to chess, considering it's only been done twice), against the Soviet Union in the middle of the Cold War, earned an incredible +2500 CPs. However, by turning around and bashing his country (Death the the US, the US must be destroyed, etc), denying the Holocaust, and publically advocating genocide, Fischer earned -2950 CPs. The result is, Fischer's reputation is -450 CPs, an overall negative total. One can certainly acknowledge that Fischer was a good player and consider his achievements when calculating his reputation, but - and this is the underlying theme of my objections here - those achievements aren't enough to get Fischer out of the red.

This applies to Da Vinci as well. Perhaps you're right, and all Da Vinci has is his intellectual achievements. But Da Vinci is different from Fischer, in that he has no huge CP deficit to dig himself out of; those intellectual achievements are not overshadowed by anything atrocious, so Da Vinci skates to the finish line.

And this certainly isn't the first time in history that a person who, after a lifetime of accruing many, many CPs, made a few mistakes (or even a single mistake) which just totally negated them all, and then some.

Now, perhaps one could argue that the CP values I've attributed to Fischer's actions are completely arbitrary. Well, that's certainly true - we're dealing with reputation here after all, of which the observer's personal views and politics are a dependent variable. You could argue that you think Holocaust denial, advocating genocide, and etc. is only worth -300 CPs, putting Fischer clearly over the top. When we simplify things in this way, we find that what we're really arguing over here is whether chess is more important than personal humanity. I feel that it isn't. Your mileage may vary.My concern with your CP example is that your lumping things together, in a way that seems to potentially prevent conversation or learning about one area because a person was horrible in another area.

-We can discuss the Theory of Relativity, be fascinated by it and learn from it without having to constantly discuss Incest or be distracted by it.

-We can discuss Da Vinci's inventions without discussing Homosexual Pedophilia (Da Vinci took no interest in women and hired/lived with an apprentice who had been previously been tried for sodomy with older men).

-We can discuss John Von Neuman without discussing rampant sexual harassment in the workplace (his secretaries had to cover the undersides of their desks with cardboard to stop him from trying to look up their skirts).

-We can discuss Alan Turing's computer theories (and my particular favorites, the all-purpose Turing Machine which simulates any computer you could possibly invent, and the Turing Test which immediately short-circuits any theist argument that attempts to claim that you can't prove sentience)...without discussing closeted homosexuality and suicide.

You must allow people to discuss what is interesting to them about a person without trying to force or derail the conversation with unrelated things. Likewise, if that unrelated thing colors your perception of the person in that other area, you should be aware that you're bringing illogical and off-topic bias into the discussion and dragging it down. To be honest, with your unsupported assertions that still attempt to discredit Fischer as a chess player with no support, I think that's exactly what you're doing.

Please give it a rest.

[nimzov]

Fischer archives (laptop content, emails, games he played on the Internet?, ...)

http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=4543

nimzo

[Brown]

Some of the news services are reporting that Bobby's corpse is going to be exhumed to determine whether he fathered a child who might be entitled to his estate.

They're going to check whether he mated, I guess.

[plumjam]

Some of the news services are reporting that Bobby's corpse is going to be exhumed to determine whether he fathered a child who might be entitled to his estate.

They're going to check whether he mated, I guess.

If this is confirmed, Fischer will have ended life in a stale mate situation :boxedin:

[applecorped]

The Howard Hughes of chess. RIP.

[Mark6]

Oh. When I saw the thread resurrected, I thought there was some change in his condition...

[Beerina]

Oh. When I saw the thread resurrected, I thought there was some change in his condition...

's'truth!




If this is confirmed, Fischer will have ended life in a stale mate situation :boxedin:

No matter. He did manage to escape the check.

[Senex]

drum roll........... (http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/08/18/iceland.bobby.fischer/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn)

[Tricky]

...So I guess we need to change the thread title to:
Bobby Fischer Dead, not Dad.

[Cleon]

I bet the Jews manipulated the DNA test.

[Cainkane1]

One of the greatest chess minds in history has passed away. Though he is famous for his 1972 match against World Champion Boris Spassky, he became known in recent years for his anti-semitism and rants against the U.S. government.
Too bad he didn't live long enough to play deep blue. He's been dead for awhile. His body was disinterred to settle a paternity suit. He's been reburied.

[Brown]

...So I guess we need to change the thread title to:
Bobby Fischer Dead, not Dad.Or how about: Mating Checked.

Edited to add:
Oops, didn't realize that I'd made a comparable crack earlier.

[Cleon]

Too bad he didn't live long enough to play deep blue. He's been dead for awhile. His body was disinterred to settle a paternity suit. He's been reburied.

Eh? Fischer died in 2008. Deep Blue's been around since the mid-90s. Gasparov's match was in 1996 or 1997, IIRC.

[NoZed Avenger]

Just checking n.

So. . . . Still dead, then?

[Skeptical Greg]

Yep...

Generalissimo Francisco Franco is too ..

[Senex]

It's lousy Fischer's remains were disturbed because someone was out to make a few dollars.

Fischer was pretty nutty late in life but he added to the quality of my life. I was riveted to my chess board after coming home from grade school during the cold war tournament and had my board out watching a guy on public television diagnose moves that only arrived every forty minutes or so. I wasn't known for my attention span at the time but Fischer had me hooked. I'm a fairly decent chess player and more analytical now directly as a result of that mans influence. Plus his personal story is compelling and entertaining.

I'm an unabashed fan of Bobby Fischer.

[Skeptical Greg]

I am a few years older than you ( 23 in 72 ) -- During the build up to the match in 72, I ran out and joined the local chess club, bought several chess books and ate, slept and lived chess for the next few months . Publishers of chess books and sellers of game paraphernalia really had a hey-day for a while..
Never became much of a chess player, but had a lot of fun ..
I was so disappointed when Fischer did not fulfill his potential .. I so much wanted to see him kicking chess butt ( officially representing the U.S. ) for years to come..

I still have one of his Biographies: Profile of a Prodigy (2nd ed.). Brady, Frank (1973)

It is a very entertaining account of his early years.. Fascinating..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer

Based on Fischer's rating, the USCF invited him to play in the 1957–58 U.S. Championship. The tournament included such luminaries as four-time champion Reshevsky, defending champion Bisguier, and William Lombardy, who in August had won the World Junior Championship with the only perfect score (11–0) in its history. Fischer was expected to score around 50%. He scored eight wins and five draws to win the tournament with 10½/13, a point ahead of Reshevsky. Still two months shy of his 15th birthday, he became the youngest US champion in history – a record that still stands.[

[Senex]

I am a few years older than you ( 23 in 72 ) -- During the build up to the match in 72, I ran out and joined the local chess club, bought several chess books and ate, slept and lived chess for the next few months . Publishers of chess books and sellers of game paraphernalia really had a hey-day for a while..

I was ten in '72 yet I was a chess player. My best friend was a 12 year old nerd who taught me the game and encouraged me to enter tournaments with him. I didn't suck and placed in tournaments. Bobby Fischer was my hero as much as any football following Manning is today to a ten year old.

Never became much of a chess player, but had a lot of fun ..
I was so disappointed when Fischer did not fulfill his potential .. I so much wanted to see him kicking chess butt ( officially representing the U.S. ) for years to come..
It rattled the hell out of me when the time passed for him to defend his title. I couldn't understand why he wouldn't just crush the next commie they put in front of him.

I still have one of his Biographies: Profile of a Prodigy (2nd ed.). Brady, Frank (1973)

It is a very entertaining account of his early years.. Fascinating..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer


I've read many but now need to find the Brady.

[Skeptical Greg]

Looks like there are a lot of used copies available cheap, at Amazon..

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0486259250/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1282346195&sr=8-1&condition=used