Best educational method?

[Matteo Martini]

During my years in school, I often wondered why I could not study what I really liked and I had to study what I had to, usually, the year of the death of an emperor, or the date of a famous battle.
I usually forgot everything few days afterwards.
I am really thinking if I did not lose all my years in high school studying a lot of unneccessary notions that were not really useful in life.
Now I have not so much time to study anymore, but I really study what I like, and I am thinking that I am using my time much efficiently than when I studied in high school what the teacher told me to study.
I am also having much more fun.

I was wondering if this is only my opinion.

I read something about the Montessori system, which goes in this direction of seeing the educational system as focused on self-learning, but, it seems that it is seen as useful almost exclusively for little children, while I am talking about high school students.

I would propose a junior high and high school system not based on grades and tests, but on self-learning.
You are under the direction of your teacher, but you study according to your rythms and to your interests.
I think this way students will be likely to study more (not less) and more efficiently

[Jeff Corey]

How can one assess learning without tests? I give weekly tests to provide students with feedback about their mastery of the assigned material. Those results also provide me with feedback about the effectiveness of my efforts. If my efforts fail with a substantial number of my students, I allow them to take retests after feedback and other remediation.
This is at a college level.

[Radrook]

A lot of them will like to choose to study how to play Peanuckle or the art of blowing soap bubbles. Do you really think you can give the type of people seen on the Maury Povich show that kind of responsibility?

[m_huber]

The thing is, practically any educational system can work. The problems arise when incompetent people try to implement a system that they are not able to function within. The grading system still works in many places. Cookie-cutter education is actually really nice. I am a scientist, but I am familiar with Shakespeare, American History, the Civil Rights movement (I'm from the south), government, and dozens of other middle and high school subjects that I would not have voluntarily chosen to take. I am glad for the knowledge. Had I focused on only a small set of subjects, I might be completely unaware of the French Revolution.

There were many tests that I crammed for. I can't recall much of that information. However, I do have a rough chronology in my head so that when a person tells me that something happened in 1840, I know that it was before the Civil War, before the Origin of Species, after the Louisiana Purchase, after the War of 1812, and so on. For some dates, I have lots of knowledge. And for that guy who sat next to me in that class who decided to become a history professor because he was so impressed with the vast knowledge of the past, those dates are precious.

Besides, the system you suggest already exists. It is called "homeschooling."

[Dancing David]

I would not say one system is always better than another, modern classrooms often have more freedom than in the past.

The issue is that students all have different styles of learning.

[Tokenconservative]

How can one assess learning without tests? I give weekly tests to provide students with feedback about their mastery of the assigned material. Those results also provide me with feedback about the effectiveness of my efforts. If my efforts fail with a substantial number of my students, I allow them to take retests after feedback and other remediation.
This is at a college level.

A very effective approach (at any level). Of course, in the public schools you can't do this.

I know.

I got fired for doing it.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

During my years in school, I often wondered why I could not study what I really liked and I had to study what I had to, usually, the year of the death of an emperor, or the date of a famous battle.
I usually forgot everything few days afterwards.
I am really thinking if I did not lose all my years in high school studying a lot of unneccessary notions that were not really useful in life.
Now I have not so much time to study anymore, but I really study what I like, and I am thinking that I am using my time much efficiently than when I studied in high school what the teacher told me to study.
I am also having much more fun.

I was wondering if this is only my opinion.

I read something about the Montessori system, which goes in this direction of seeing the educational system as focused on self-learning, but, it seems that it is seen as useful almost exclusively for little children, while I am talking about high school students.

I would propose a junior high and high school system not based on grades and tests, but on self-learning.
You are under the direction of your teacher, but you study according to your rythms and to your interests.
I think this way students will be likely to study more (not less) and more efficiently

You are not asking what's the best overall teaching method, but what is "fun" for you, individually. Public schools do not allow teachers to cater to individual student's needs, and in fact very much discourage doing so.

And yes...sigh, there are some programs that do this, self-paced, self-directed, usually in the "gifted" or AP programs.

Once again I am...sigh...speaking generally.

This really gets tiresome.

Tokie

[NobbyNobbs]

A very effective approach (at any level). Of course, in the public schools you can't do this.

I know.

I got fired for doing it.

Tokie

Yawn.

You got fired for administering tests, providing students with feedback on their mastery of the material, and allowing retesting and remediation? Things that every single other teacher in America does without recrimination?

Right. I call BS.

[Tokenconservative]

Yawn.

You got fired for administering tests, providing students with feedback on their mastery of the material, and allowing retesting and remediation? Things that every single other teacher in America does without recrimination?

Right. I call BS.

That was part of it.

What I did was administer non-standard tests (to determine where the kids were) and then taught to the level they were at (nearly individually...obviously there were groups of kids at same/similar level, etc., etc....sigh). The school had no testing of that sort available and I was coming into the class half-way through the year taking over for a teacher who'd had a nervous breakdown; I discovered their learning had regressed and has to first catch them all up, before we could move on.

As I said, my use of testing that was not district approved was...frowned upon. My refusal to teach Rainforest Math (New, New Math repackaged...because it made no sense and I couldn't teach it that way) went a long way in getting the principal to ask me to resign. The fact the 6th grade teachers got wind of the fact that a number of my kids would be ready to enter 2nd semester 7th or 1st semester 8th grade in math when they would be getting them the next year in 6th grade met with...resistance.

I was asked to stop doing that. I refused on the grounds that to do so would be to force them to unlearn what they'd learned and besides, piss on the 6th grade teachers... I was there for the kids, not them and their insecurities about having kids who are smarter and more knowledgeable than they in their classes.

When I refused I was asked to resign.

Oh...and can you imagine how little I care whether you believe me or not?

No? I can't either. I'm told the human mind cannot imagine something infinitly small.

Tokie

[Jorghnassen]

The issue is that students all have different styles of learning.

QFT! :D Ergo there is no "best educational method" that works for everyone.

[196]

Public schools do not allow teachers to cater to individual student's needs, and in fact very much discourage doing so.I am a mathematics teacher in Ontario. Perhaps our system is more "enlightened" because we are allowed and expected to cater to the needs of individual students. While I try to use a constructivist approach as much as possible, some students actually perform better with more structure and fewer choices.


In the early days of a class, I learn about my students, and then I adjust my teaching to match their unique interests and strengths. For example, one of my classes is designing a community youth centre as their culminating activity. The culminating activity is a product-based assessment that forms part of their final mark. The province still requires a formal final exam, but the mark is only a small part of their overall assessment.

[Matteo Martini]

How can one assess learning without tests? I give weekly tests to provide students with feedback about their mastery of the assigned material. Those results also provide me with feedback about the effectiveness of my efforts. If my efforts fail with a substantial number of my students, I allow them to take retests after feedback and other remediation.
This is at a college level.

Well, at first I would say, why do you need to assess learning so much.
At least, it depends what you call "assess learning", if it is about to study for hours a topic on which you have no interest at all, and have to remember notions that you will probably forget in a week or so, what is the benefit of such a test at all?
You can assess about what the student is doing by asking him relations about what he is studying, and the topic of study can be choosen together by student and professor

[Matteo Martini]

A lot of them will like to choose to study how to play Peanuckle or the art of blowing soap bubbles. Do you really think you can give the type of people seen on the Maury Povich show that kind of responsibility?

The topic of study can be choosen together by student and professor, not professor alone.
If you have to study history of the Roman Empire, you can do it by yourself, without any teacher telling you: "please, study from page 20 to page 56"

[Matteo Martini]

The thing is, practically any educational system can work. The problems arise when incompetent people try to implement a system that they are not able to function within. The grading system still works in many places. Cookie-cutter education is actually really nice. I am a scientist, but I am familiar with Shakespeare, American History, the Civil Rights movement (I'm from the south), government, and dozens of other middle and high school subjects that I would not have voluntarily chosen to take. I am glad for the knowledge. Had I focused on only a small set of subjects, I might be completely unaware of the French Revolution.

There were many tests that I crammed for. I can't recall much of that information. However, I do have a rough chronology in my head so that when a person tells me that something happened in 1840, I know that it was before the Civil War, before the Origin of Species, after the Louisiana Purchase, after the War of 1812, and so on. For some dates, I have lots of knowledge. And for that guy who sat next to me in that class who decided to become a history professor because he was so impressed with the vast knowledge of the past, those dates are precious.

Besides, the system you suggest already exists. It is called "homeschooling."

Homeschooling is a completely different thing from what I am talking about.
Ans I, too, have memories about literature lessons about old poets that I considered not interesting then, and I consider not interesting now.
I had to study them, and I forgot all about them.
I learnt nothing about Shakespeare, Goethe, Bulgakov and Dostoevsky from high school.
What I know now, is because I read everything by myself.

[m_huber]

Homeschooling is a completely different thing from what I am talking about.
Ans I, too, have memories about literature lessons about old poets that I considered not interesting then, and I consider not interesting now.
I had to study them, and I forgot all about them.
I learnt nothing about Shakespeare, Goethe, Bulgakov and Dostoevsky from high school.
What I know now, is because I read everything by myself.

I would suggest, then, that either you were a poor student or you had poor teachers. I learned a tremendous amount from my schooling, and I had many friends who learned a tremendous amount from school. There are also a good number of students who decide on their lifelong career interest from a class/teacher in high school. The system isn't without value, but there are many people who decide to teach because it is easier than getting a "real" job. Others decide to teach because they love working with students, but they don't have adequate training to make their teaching effective. No matter what system you implement, you will have this sort of problem.

[Jeff Corey]

Well, at first I would say, why do you need to assess learning so much....
First, to provide feedback to the students about their level of mastery of the material. Next, to provide feedback to the instructors as to the effectiveness of their efforts. Finally, to be able to assign grades that accurately reflect the students' level of knowledge of the material.
The more tests, the better.

[Tokenconservative]

I am a mathematics teacher in Ontario. Perhaps our system is more "enlightened" because we are allowed and expected to cater to the needs of individual students. While I try to use a constructivist approach as much as possible, some students actually perform better with more structure and fewer choices.

In the early days of a class, I learn about my students, and then I adjust my teaching to match their unique interests and strengths. For example, one of my classes is designing a community youth centre as their culminating activity. The culminating activity is a product-based assessment that forms part of their final mark. The province still requires a formal final exam, but the mark is only a small part of their overall assessment.

Maybe so.

I encountered the opposite teaching 5th grade, and my daughters encountered what I described in 9th and 10 grade algebra, geometry and calc.

Where I taught, I had to bring in testing materials from outside (I asked my "mentor" for some and she gave me a funny look and waved vaguely at a shelf of textbooks in her room...they were singularly unhelpful). Understand, I was taking over a class that had learned virtually nothing for 1/2 year in an "at risk" school (lots of very poor kids, lots of local gang activity, lots of ESL, lots of non-involved parents, probably 1/3 of the class was ESL, various learning disabilities and with horrific home lives --two kids had been sexually abused, a couple more were physically abused, etc.). I was not instructed to take the approach I did, I was instructed to "hold the fort" until school was out for the year. The principal liked my sort of no-nonsense, regimented approach...at first. When she started getting complaints from the 6th grade teachers who got wind of how far ahead and how fast my kids were moving in math...it became a battle.

I was asked whether I was "pushing" them "too hard," at first. I was pushing them, by the way...someone had to. Worse than simply not having learned anything for 1/2 year, many were regressing in many areas. I raised (my) test scores across the boards for most of them (the learning disabled were a problem, of course) and "catered" to their specific stenghts discovering what each was "best" at and encouraging to really push themselves especially in that/those areas, while working hard in the other areas.

This was not what either the district nor the school wanted from me. I was there to mark time and keep them under control...that's all.

Because I took the approach that these kids had one chance...this one...to excel in the 5th grade, I was asked to resign.

Of course, there are many in here who despise me for my conservative politics (and for putting them in the mud time and time again) who laugh at this...but that does not change the fact that it happened. It only means that there are many in here who act just like that school and that district does and put themselves ahead of the education of children.

I couldn't do that when I was asked to take over that class, and I paid the price.

Others can look at kids and shrug their shoulders and say to themselves, "meh...let 'em sink or swim...so long as I get my rich package of bennies at the end of my career...what the hell do I care!?"

Again...that was not me. I couldn't do it that way.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Well, at first I would say, why do you need to assess learning so much.
At least, it depends what you call "assess learning", if it is about to study for hours a topic on which you have no interest at all, and have to remember notions that you will probably forget in a week or so, what is the benefit of such a test at all?
You can assess about what the student is doing by asking him relations about what he is studying, and the topic of study can be choosen together by student and professor

Professor?

I thought we were talking about kids.

While I can agree that SOME general ed classes need to be taken at the college level (writing research papers, some basic backgrounders in literature, bio, history, etc.) any college student who cannot figure out his or her own learning approach PDQ, needs to attend a junior college for a time, or go sell cell accessories in the mall.

Tokie

[Jeff Corey]

Professor?

I thought we were talking about kids.

While I can agree that SOME general ed classes need to be taken at the college level (writing research papers, some basic backgrounders in literature, bio, history, etc.) any college student who cannot figure out his or her own learning approach PDQ, needs to attend a junior college for a time, or go sell cell accessories in the mall.

Tokie
I agree with some of this. But how are students to figure out their learning approach? Sink or swim? Are you proposing that attending a junior college is likely to help people figure out their "learning approach"?
There is only one learning approach. Practice.

A tourist is lost in NYC, finds a cop, says, "Officer, how do I get to Carnegie Hall?"
"Practice, practice, practice."

[athon]

There is no such thing as a perfect system of teaching. In the end, any structure in which educators work is filtered through the educator, whose own practices are influenced by the administration under which they work. The same system can create totally different results under different teams of professionals.

In my own research on the matter, the biggest impact on a student's ability to interact effectively in their community when they leave school is the teacher and their own professional methodology. Beyond that, the influence weakens.

The teacher's methods will ultimately result from their own educational experience, the impact of their administration, the resources they have access to and the community in which the school primarily functions.

I often hear complaints about how students don't get subjected to 'Shakespeare' or 'history of community X' or 'anatomy of organ Y'. Yet evaluation then demonstrates these students are quite well connected with information sources where they pick up new information quickly. Schools can't teach everything, especially today.

I recently (a number of months ago) had to sit down with the curriculum of my last school and decide of all content in junior science which bits were absolutely essential. This meant evaluating what 'essential' meant (essential to who, for what reasons...etc.) and justifying why it should remain as a core piece of text. I started with a fair bit, and managed to reduce it down quite substantially. This left room for teaching more thinking skills and more contextual knowledge.

Education is a tricky game where everybody claims to know more than the experts. In the end, the teacher is the one who has to make the decisions. Sadly, many people become teachers who have no place in charge of a kid's education. The dilemma is how to cull out the weak educators in countries which are typically undernourished with teacher numbers as it is.

Athon

[fuelair]

A very effective approach (at any level). Of course, in the public schools you can't do this.

I know.

I got fired for doing it.

Tokie
What Public schools were you both working in? My experience is limited to one county system in Tennessee (Metro Nasville/Davidson Co.) and four in Florida (Pasco7 yrs., Pinellas 1 yr., Hillsboro 1 yr and Orlando/Orange Co. 10 yrs.) but in none of them have I had any problem with testing/retesting and related aspects - rather, it was/is actively encouraged - especially in Pasco and Orange.

[fuelair]

Well, at first I would say, why do you need to assess learning so much.
At least, it depends what you call "assess learning", if it is about to study for hours a topic on which you have no interest at all, and have to remember notions that you will probably forget in a week or so, what is the benefit of such a test at all?
You can assess about what the student is doing by asking him relations about what he is studying, and the topic of study can be choosen together by student and professor

Ever studied Maslow (Abe)? I ask because he has this neat (because it is correct) thing called the hierarchy of needs. The one required for students (not school attendees, STUDENTS) to do what you - and every functional teacher in the known universe - wants in the sixth level - self-motivated.

Most school attendees are on the second or third level - concerned with survival and what their peers think of them and what they'll do if X doesn't want to go out with them. People thinking at that level/operating at that level do not do well at determining a great and intensive program of study.
Note that I am not blaming them, just noting reality.

I should add here what you all should be well aware of : governmental testing of math and language arts with science and social studies heading up fast from the rear are driving the teaching programs in a lot of places (thank you, mr. rectumhead j. shrub) and eliminating a lot of the possibilities for more interesting studies. I just love the order Chemistry has to be taught in now (we will do well not to get me really started on this end of things).

[zooterkin]

What Public schools were you both working in? My experience is limited to one county system in Tennessee (Metro Nasville/Davidson Co.) and four in Florida (Pasco7 yrs., Pinellas 1 yr., Hillsboro 1 yr and Orlando/Orange Co. 10 yrs.) but in none of them have I had any problem with testing/retesting and related aspects - rather, it was/is actively encouraged - especially in Pasco and Orange.

You'll have a long wait; TC has been suspended for 7 days, and is on notice that further infractions will lead to being banned.

[athon]

You'll have a long wait; TC has been suspended for 7 days, and is on notice that further infractions will lead to being banned.

It's things like this that make me highly skeptical of his claims on why he got booted from teaching. If his demeanour in real life is any reflection of his demeanour here...I'd have my reservations that it was as simple as he implies.

Athon

[Jeff Corey]

Ever studied Maslow (Abe)? I ask because he has this neat (because it is correct) thing called the hierarchy of needs. The one required for students (not school attendees, STUDENTS) to do what you - and every functional teacher in the known universe - wants in the sixth level - self-motivated...
There is no such thing. Maslow's theory is a bunch of New Age Woo. Not testable, unrealistic and based on the false assumption of free will.

[fuelair]

There is no such thing. Maslow's theory is a bunch of New Age Woo. Not testable, unrealistic and based on the false assumption of free will.Amazing how many qualified people disagree with you on that point.

And, as a technicality, Maslow did that well before there was a "New Age" to Woo

[Radrook]

Lower the standards and you produce people with meaningless diplomas. Just like the permissive parenting craze created a bunch of brats.

[Jeff Corey]

Amazing how many qualified people disagree with you on that point...
Argumentum ad popularum with no evidence of any "qualified people" that disagree. A double fallacy.

[volatile]

Lower the standards and you produce people with meaningless diplomas. Just like the permissive parenting craze created a bunch of brats.

Evidence of these "lowered standards"? I believe we asked Tokie for some evidence for a similar claim; he had none (see the thread entitled "Is US Education truly getting worse?"). Maybe you'll do better in backing this up, though.

[Jeff Corey]

Evidence of these "lowered standards"? I believe we asked Tokie for some evidence for a similar claim; he had none (see the thread entitled "Is US Education truly getting worse?"). Maybe you'll do better in backing this up, though.

I doubt it, though. It is difficult to reliably measure with the rubber rulers that are typically used. After 40 years teaching, I am happy to say that my classes with a widely more diversified student population are doing very well, thanks. No evidence, just opinion.

[Iamme]

Jeff,

I thought you'd be retired by now. When you going to turn 80? :)

[fuelair]

Argumentum ad popularum with no evidence of any "qualified people" that disagree. A double fallacy.
Good try, but:

http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/regsys/maslow.html
http://www.businessballs.com/maslow.htm
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/maslow.html
http://www.normemma.com/armaslow.htm

samples re:Maslow, third was negative in part, but read to the end. Took about 6 minutes to get these following reading your note.

Put simply, no one is calling him anything like woo - at most some suggest he may need minor modification. May. Minor:)

[Radrook]

Evidence of these "lowered standards"? I believe we asked Tokie for some evidence for a similar claim; he had none (see the thread entitled "Is US Education truly getting worse?"). Maybe you'll do better in backing this up, though.

The person who wrote the following expresses it much better than I can.

Excerpt[

Do adults in the workforce

Submitted by Ellie Depew (not verified) on August 8, 2007 - 17:07.
Do adults in the workforce get promotions which they have not earned? While there are some exceptions, the general rule is that one is not promoted until one can prove that he/she has the qualifications to do the job. Why should we use the educational system to teach students for 13 years that they will get promoted even if they can't do the work, only to have them slapped in the face by reality when they are adults? Students all know who is capable of doing grade-level work and who is not. They can tell you what their district policy on retention is and who cannot be retained again according to that policy. Is it really in those students' best interest to pass them and have repeat that struggle every year? If they know they must achieve to pass, they will usually work to do so.

By the time they are in sixth grade, if they are not reading and doing math at grade level, it is highly unlikely that they will ever catch up. Because they are tired of struggling with work they cannot do, they then become part of the dropout statistics when they are old enough. Do I believe in remediation? Of course, I do. But when extra help and summer school haven't helped students reach grade level, those students need another chance to learn the curriculum that they have not mastered.

Furthermore, when students who have not really learned the standard course of study which is considered the minimum for high school graduation enter the workforce, their deficiencies become glaringly obvious to their employers and coworkers. Their conclusion is that, if this is the sort of graduates that school produces, it must not be a very good school. The integrity of the entire educational system is a stake.

http://www.edutopia.org/schools-pass-marginal-students

[volatile]

Your evidence for falling standards is an unsupported, unevidenced quote from a message board?!

You said standards had "lowered". Thus it behoves you, at minimum, to demonstrate that this siutation has exacerbated over time. As I said, we had a whole 'nother thread on this issue, and no-one had any evidence then. If you can demonstrate that school standards are lower now than in the past, that there is "grade inflation" or that schools are passing students who don't deserve to pass, please present it.

[Jeff Corey]

Good try, but:

http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/col/regsys/maslow.html
http://www.businessballs.com/maslow.htm
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/maslow.html
http://www.normemma.com/armaslow.htm

samples re:Maslow, third was negative in part, but read to the end. Took about 6 minutes to get these following reading your note.

Put simply, no one is calling him anything like woo - at most some suggest he may need minor modification. May. Minor:)
Good try, but two unsigned articles, one on the Businessballs website, and another by Norman Kunc, apparently not a psychologist, but a physical therapist, and one by a psychologist who is critical don't add up to much agreement by qualified people.
How about a couple of articles in the Journal of Humanistic Psychology? A real journal, peer reviewed, not Businessballs.
Geller, L (1983) The failure of self-actualization theory (v 22,2, 56-72)
Neeher, J (1991) Maslow's theory of motivation:a critique (v31, 89-112)

[fuelair]

Links?

[volatile]

I think it's pretty poor form you didn't look them up by yourself. Nevertheless, here are the abstracts:

http://jhp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/31/3/89
http://jhp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/22/2/56

Full text PDFs are paid, unless you have an institutional login.

[fuelair]

Some days I just have too much fun!!!
http://ahpweb.org/aboutahp/whatis.html

Thought I would read up on the Journal itself (heart of the beast and all that). Their intro - the site I have linkied to- made wonderful reading. Especially in the founders /early participants/ still honored area of their big deal 60's conference.

I am forced to guess from this (and the limits abstracts place on things) that your lads are trying to bite the hand that helped create them - the daddy jealously kind of thing so common to psychology people.

Please sir, may I have another sir.

[Jeff Corey]

Some days I just have too much fun!!!
http://ahpweb.org/aboutahp/whatis.html

Thought I would read up on the Journal itself (heart of the beast and all that). Their intro - the site I have linkied to- made wonderful reading. Especially in the founders /early participants/ still honored area of their big deal 60's conference.

I am forced to guess from this (and the limits abstracts place on things) that your lads are trying to bite the hand that helped create them - the daddy jealously kind of thing so common to psychology people.

Please sir, may I have another sir.
Sure. Those were only the internal disagreements. Some of the responses to the first article at that time were quite telling. Rogers stating that Humanistic Psychology was all about human freedom (free will) and dignity and against the mechanistic behaviorists who denied all that. The humanistic movement was never greatly concerned about rigorous empiricism and falsifiable theories - that's not what Esalen was about. It fit in nicely with the other New Age Sew Age going on at the time.
It's not very influential now, even the cognitive psychologists are much more careful about falsifiable theories. But I understand that it is still big outside of psychology, as shown by your citation of Businessballs. Relatives in Human Resources tell me of having to listen to speakers at training seminars go on and on about Maslow's hierarchy. Luckily they have a solid enough grounding in the science of behavior to recognize what nonsense it is.
As I said before, woo.

[Jeff Corey]

... the daddy jealously kind of thing so common to psychology people...
Now you sound eine kleine bissel Freudishe kopf. Is it now the time for the issue of penis envy to rear its ugly head?