The Big Crunch and 'Rebirth'

[Agular]

I read the following on Wikipedia:

The Big Crunch theory is a symmetric view of the ultimate fate of the universe. Just as the Big Bang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang) started a cosmological expansion, this theory postulates that the average density of the universe is enough to stop its expansion and begin contracting. The end result is unknown; a simple extrapolation would have all the matter and space-time in the universe collapse into a dimensionless singularity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity), but at these scales unknown quantum effects need to be considered (See Quantum gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gravity)).

This scenario allows the Big Bang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang) to have been immediately preceded by the Big Crunch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch) of a preceding universe. If this occurs repeatedly, we have an oscillatory universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillatory_universe). The universe could then consist of an infinite sequence of finite universes, each finite universe ending with a Big Crunch that is also the Big Bang of the next universe.

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So, IF that were true, and IF that happens over and over, what is the possibility that the exact configuration of atoms, etc. that make us what we are would be reconfigured and we would live again at sometime eons from now?

I know that this may sound a bit flaky, but my imagination ran a little wild this morning.

[madurobob]

I'm no physicist, but I thought the current prevailing theory was that the universe was expanding and there was not enough countering force to ever stop the expansion.

In answer to your actual question, the answer is either "42" or "anyone who disagrees tacitly supports Hitler"

[Ichneumonwasp]

I read the following on Wikipedia:

The Big Crunch theory is a symmetric view of the ultimate fate of the universe. Just as the Big Bang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang) started a cosmological expansion, this theory postulates that the average density of the universe is enough to stop its expansion and begin contracting. The end result is unknown; a simple extrapolation would have all the matter and space-time in the universe collapse into a dimensionless singularity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity), but at these scales unknown quantum effects need to be considered (See Quantum gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gravity)).

This scenario allows the Big Bang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang) to have been immediately preceded by the Big Crunch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch) of a preceding universe. If this occurs repeatedly, we have an oscillatory universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillatory_universe). The universe could then consist of an infinite sequence of finite universes, each finite universe ending with a Big Crunch that is also the Big Bang of the next universe.

====================

So, IF that were true, and IF that happens over and over, what is the possibility that the exact configuration of atoms, etc. that make us what we are would be reconfigured and we would live again at sometime eons from now?

I know that this may sound a bit flaky, but my imagination ran a little wild this morning.

Given finite space, finite amount of matter, and infinite time the possibility would be 1 -- at least according to Neitzsche, who tacitly supported Hilter in some people's fantasies.

But '42' covers it just as nicely.

[zenotter]

That would be neat, but would that mean we'd have the previous memories stored in the recombobulated brain bits during the second (or 42nd) go-round? Or would the atoms have been included in so many other bits of things that there'd be no chance?

*heading off to Milliways for lunch*

[KingMerv00]

That would be neat, but would that mean we'd have the previous memories stored in the recombobulated brain bits during the second (or 42nd) go-round? Or would the atoms have been included in so many other bits of things that there'd be no chance?

*heading off to Milliways for lunch*

If there were an infinite number of bangs and crunches, we would eventually get a universe similar to this one but with our memories intact.

[zenotter]

But I don't have my memories from the last time this happened, or the time before. What gives??

[KingMerv00]

But I don't have my memories from the last time this happened, or the time before. What gives??

That would make perfect sense if there is no such thing as a soul.

A memory is just an arrangement of matter. In this particular universe, your particular arrangement doesn't have any past memories.

Edit: Actually "memories" is a poor word to use. After all, one could have "memories" of things that hadn't happened.

[zenotter]

Well crap. Hopefully the next dice roll will fare me better, and I won't feel the need to hoard nuts for each winter. :squirrel:

[Agular]

I'm guessing that starting a new woo religion based on this premise is not a good idea?

Wait a second...there are plenty of gullible people around. Now to just think of a name for it.

[KingMerv00]

I'm guessing that starting a new woo religion based on this premise is not a good idea?

Wait a second...there are plenty of gullible people around. Now to just think of a name for it.

The Church of Universal Rebirth maybe?

[madurobob]

So, IF that were true, and IF that happens over and over, what is the possibility that the exact configuration of atoms, etc. that make us what we are would be reconfigured and we would live again at sometime eons from now?

I know that this may sound a bit flaky, but my imagination ran a little wild this morning.
My initial flippant response was based on the idea that in any other iteration of the oscillation there is no guarantee that the laws of the universe we have today would hold. So, we run into the same problem with trying to define existence outside of the universe today. Without the laws of space & time as we know them we have a hard time talking about "existence". Almost by definition any other iteration of the oscillation would be "nothing". Of course, as pointed out, with infinite iterations we're guaranteed to get the same results at least once.

But, ideas of "infinite" and causality lose meaning when the universe ends. I'm not even sure you can call the next iteration "next" as opposed to "previous" or "simultaneous" since time is limited to this universe.

Iteration of the oscillation... I like saying that. That'd be a good name for a rock band...

More coffee, please.

[Agular]

I must admit, I couldn't figure out how Hitler entered the equation.

@Kingmerv: Not bad for a name since I am a Reverend in the Universal Life Church. (Just to bust the chops of my Xtian friends.)

[madurobob]

I must admit, I couldn't figure out how Hitler entered the equation.
Godwin's Law: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law)
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

[geni]

So, IF that were true, and IF that happens over and over, what is the possibility that the exact configuration of atoms, etc. that make us what we are would be reconfigured and we would live again at sometime eons from now?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincar%C3%A9_recurrence_theorem

see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_E19_s_and_more

[Agular]

Godwin's Law: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law)
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Yeah, but he was mentioned in the FIRST response!

[zenotter]

I must admit, I couldn't figure out how Hitler entered the equation.

@Kingmerv: Not bad for a name since I am a Reverend in the Universal Life Church. (Just to bust the chops of my Xtian friends.)
Heh, I'm an Ordained Clergy Person under Spiritual Humanism (http://www.spiritualhumanism.org/). (Thought it was a great idea while working with Catholics since those higher-ups severely frown on ordination of women, and as it made way more sense to me than Catholicism ever did. How I miss the liturgies though.)

[Agular]

Hmm...I think that I will expand into Spiritual Humanism. I like the sound of that one even better.

[zenotter]

I'm kinda thinking Peter Potamism would be sweet. "I got that THING he sent me!" (Wonderful scene in "Back to the Present", a Harvey Birdman episode on the Vol. 2 DVD. I'd link to a vid clip but can't find it anywhere on the Interweb - boo!)

I haven't done anything with the ordination but I like flashing the clergy wallet card to Xtians occasionally. They usually then give me a look of :confused: