If Everyone in the world was atheistic would there be more or less crime

[DOC]

First of all, let me point out I'm not saying people who claim to be Christian or Jewish or any other theist belief don't commit crimes. And I'm not saying that there aren't some very ethical atheists out there. But in my opinion, if everyone in the world (rich, poor, and middle class) was atheistic and believed there was nothing after death, I would have to believe there would be more crime in the world.

[I less than three logic]

So you think a significant number of theist are only good out of fear of punishment?

[lupus_in_fabula]

First of all, let me point out I'm not saying people who claim to be Christian or Jewish or any other theist belief don't commit crimes. And I'm not saying that there aren't some very ethical atheists out there. But in my opinion, if everyone in the world (rich, poor, and middle class) was atheistic and believed there was nothing after death, I would have to believe there would be more crime in the world.

I don’t see why creating an imaginary entity is necessary for keeping crime rates low. I think that’s undervaluing humanity.

Perhaps Hitchens’ challenge is sufficient: (1) Name a moral act or statement by a theist that could not have been done by a non-theist. (2) Name a wicked action that could only have been derived directly from theistic justification.

[DOC]

For example, think of a poor neighborhood in your area. Now take away all the churches in those poor neighborhoods, because if everyone was atheistic there would be no church going.
And if you take away those churches you'll also have to take away any charity work done by those churches. I have to believe if you took away the churches and charity work those churches do, crime would increase in that area.

[DOC]

So you think a significant number of theist are only good out of fear of punishment?

That's one reason, but I would think that reason would apply more to atheists. Theists would have the added benefit of a possible afterlife reward which would not apply to atheists.

It would also seem that Theists would have more of the guilt factor that they were violating one of God's rules that a atheist would be less likely to have. It would seem rational to conclude that less guilty feelings means more crime.

[Ravenwood]

Except when god's laws say that it is ok to kill & murder other nationalities, than they have no trouble committing said atrocities...Religion has given the "it's OK because god said so" stamp to some pretty hideous actions. I'm pretty sure that there have been more wars along religious differences than secular ones...

[-Fran-]

I would think that an atheist, knowing we only have this life, would want to do the best of it, and not destroy it by committing crimes.

[Mojo]

But in my opinion, if everyone in the world (rich, poor, and middle class) was atheistic and believed there was nothing after death, I would have to believe there would be more crime in the world.


Even if this were the case, it wouldn't have any bearing on whether or not your imaginary friend actually exists.

[I less than three logic]

That's one reason, but I would think that reason would apply more to atheists. Theists would have the added benefit of a possible afterlife reward which would not apply to atheists.

It would also seem that Theists would have more of the guilt factor that they were violating one of God's rules that a atheist would be less likely to have.
That makes no sense. Why would current atheists start committing more crimes if there were more atheists? Seems to me the only place these additional crimes could come from is the section of the population who were once theists.

Also, as a little side note, it's interesting that you capitalized "Theists" but not "atheists". ;)

[MRC_Hans]

For example, think of a poor neighborhood in your area. Now take away all the churches in those poor neighborhoods, because if everyone was atheistic there would be no church going.
And if you take away those churches you'll also have to take away any charity work done by those churches. I have to believe if you took away the churches and charity work those churches do, crime would increase in that area.So if we made a poor neighborhoods poorer (taking away charity) crime rate would rise? Quite possibly. What if we replaced the church charity with secular charity?

Seriously, I live in a country where the majority, while still loosely connected to the state church, are functional atheists. They don't make daily prayers, they only attend church service on special occasions (christening, confirmation, wedding, funeral, an occation Christmass service), and they certainly don't think of god on a daily basis. Church charity is marginal, all support of poor is secular.

So for most purposes, Denmark is your atheist society. Crime rate? Very low compared with most parts of the USA.

Do your own math.

ETA: But since you brought this issue up: Do you think people should believe in God because that may lower the crime-rate, or because he exists?

Hans

[Hatchet]

Please look at other developed countries outside the US, where religion is on the wane and church attendance low. Do you see a lack of charity groups? No. Do you see higher murder rates? No. Higher crime in general? Again no.

From here (http://www.ncls.org.au/download/doc2270/NCLSOccasionalPaper3.pdf), it seems that in Australia less than 10% of the population regularly attend church services.

Yet I think our crime rate compares quite favorably to the US. From the homicide rates listed on wikipedia, I see that I am almost 4.5 times less likely to be murdered here than in the US.

People's compassion for others doesn't just turn off because they stop going to church or believing in a god. In fact my personal experience is that they become more tolerant and giving.

Cheers.

[DOC]

I would think that an atheist, knowing we only have this life, would want to do the best of it, and not destroy it by committing crimes.

Yes, but a very good way to make the best of it is to have a lot of money. A quick way to get a lot of money (if your poor and uneducated) is to rob a bank. Sure you might get caught and ruin your life by going to jail, but that would be your only punishment. Theists would also have to worry about 2 punishments -- this life and the afterlife.

[schlitt]

A good way to get an indication of the answer to your question would be to look at countries which have high percentages of atheists, and then look at their crime rate.

Unfortunately for you DOC, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Japan, which have the highest proportion of Atheists in the world, have among the lowest crime rates in the world.

I am afraid the evidence does not support your hypothesis DOC.

[godless dave]

I think it would be about the same.

[H3LL]

Everyone is born atheist.

Everyone is atheist about most of the thousands of imaginary beings/creatures.

I wonder at what age children respond to religious indoctrination?

I wonder at what age children "behave" from fear of eternal punishment?

Fear of eternal punishment hasn't stopped DOC regularly lying even though strictly discouraged by his sky-fairy's religion.

DOC suggests that being "poor and uneducated" leads to criminal behaviour.

Why is it that being "poor and uneducated" leads to greater religiosity?

Why is the % of the prison population over-represented by theists compared to the free population?

.

[Shrike]

Theists would also have to worry about 2 punishments -- this life and the afterlife.

No, they don't.
Many 'theists' will confess their crime (in prison for example), turn to their god and ask for forgiveness. As I've experienced so far, the church will than always say they're forgiven.
Maybe they'll have to spend some time in purgatory (if their particular belief system has that), but they'll always be accepted into heaven. At least, that is what they believe.

[-Fran-]

Yes, but a very good way to make the best of it is to have a lot of money.

Says who? Don't be so materialistic ;)

[DOC]

I don’t see why creating an imaginary entity is necessary for keeping crime rates low. I think that’s undervaluing humanity.

Most theists would believe atheism is an imaginary entity. But this thread really isn't about does God exist or not.

Some other threads that are more related to that topic are:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=97347

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=103668

[-Fran-]

Most theists would believe atheism is an imaginary entity.

Yeah, and that belief, too, is imaginary.

[H3LL]

Most theists would believe atheism is an imaginary entity.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

.

[lupus_in_fabula]

Most theists would believe atheism is an imaginary entity. But this thread really isn't about does God exist or not.

Some other threads that are more related to that topic are:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=97347

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=103668

Fine. If they think lack of belief (in an imaginary entity) is an entity in and by itself, let them believe that (they have, after all, a high propensity to narrate things into existence).

SO, more the point of the discussion then: DOC, are you up for Hitchens’ challenge? (1) Name a moral act or statement by a theist that could not have been done by a non-theist. (2) Name a wicked action that could only have been derived directly from theistic justification.

[DOC]

A good way to get an indication of the answer to your question would be to look at countries which have high percentages of atheists, and then look at their crime rate.

Unfortunately for you DOC, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Japan, which have the highest proportion of Atheists in the world, have among the lowest crime rates in the world.

I am afraid the evidence does not support your hypothesis DOC.

Yes, but all of those 4 countries have a higher suicide rate than the mostly Christian US. And the very rich Japan has more than double the rate of the US. Also it is no secret that atheistic Russia has extensive organized crime and corruption problems as well as other ex-Soviet satellites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Also all those countries you mentioned are highly isolated from the rest of the world and aren't subject to the same multiracial and uneven income distribution pressures that say the US or France is.

And those countries you mentioned might even have a lower crime rate if everyone was theistic. Or a higher rate if everyone was atheistic for the reasons I've given in the above posts.

[Mobyseven]

Yes, but a very good way to make the best of it is to have a lot of money. A quick way to get a lot of money (if your poor and uneducated) is to rob a bank. Sure you might get caught and ruin your life by going to jail, but that would be your only punishment. Theists would also have to worry about 2 punishments -- this life and the afterlife.

So theists don't rob banks?

[-Fran-]

Yes, but all of those 4 countries have a higher suicide rate than the mostly Christian US.

Ahh, yeah, we depressed Swedes kill ourselves in droves! Have you any evidence that it is the case at all? And even if it should be correct that it in that case is because of atheism? And what is the connection between a high suicide rate and a high crime rate anyway?

An atheist thinks that only money can make this only life better, he at once starts to committ crimes (there's no other way to get money) he fears no consequences because he doesn't believe in god, and a punishment in this life isn't deterrent enough, but then, somehow, he gets a bad conscience anyway and kills himself? Have I summed up your argument so far nicely? :rolleyes:

[-Fran-]

Also all those countries you mentioned are highly isolated from the rest of the world

What?

[Sunstealer]

Atheistic Russia?? You are babbling incoherently and changing your statements every few posts from crime to suicide. Is suicide a crime? And how do you punish that exactly? What next? Homosexuality or something? Has it not occurred to you that ex-soviet satellite states have religions too? Your statements merely show your lack of education with regard to the rest of the world.

You are trying the tired and rather old "we wouldn't be moral without god" nonsense.

If that were the case you would expect to see every atheist out to get what they wanted whenever they wanted using any method they could. The religious wouldn't exist because the atheists would have butchered them all and taken their possessions along time ago because we are obviously a bunch of amoral, materialistic goons.

/And breathe.

If I was a mod I'd delete this rubbish, it's no more than DOCs usual ploy.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Also all those countries you mentioned are highly isolated from the rest of the world and aren't subject to the same multiracial and uneven income distribution pressures that say the US or France is.

Sweden, Norway, Denmark & Japan are highly isolated from the rest of the world?

What measure are you using to judge that? I would speculate that a vastly higher percentage of the population of at least the Scandanavian three has spent time travelling, living or working abroad than is the case for the US.

[-Fran-]

Sweden, Norway, Denmark & Japan are highly isolated from the rest of the world?

What measure are you using to judge that? I would speculate that a vastly higher percentage of the population of at least the Scandanavian three has spent time travelling, living or working abroad than is the case for the US.

Maybe he thinks that the whole of Scandinavia is situated above the polar circle, and that we only occasionally get a glimpse of the rest of the world through our TVs and computers, when the connection is good in our igloos :rolleyes:

[joobz]

crime would remain the same.

[Francesca R]

But in my opinion, if everyone in the world (rich, poor, and middle class) was atheistic and believed there was nothing after death, I would have to believe there would be more crime in the world.You can believe what you wish. But for what reason?

For example, think of a poor neighborhood in your area. Now take away all the churches in those poor neighborhoods, because if everyone was atheistic there would be no church going.
And if you take away those churches you'll also have to take away any charity work done by those churches. I have to believe if you took away the churches and charity work those churches do, crime would increase in that area.This argument implies that people engage in charity work because they believe in God. So why do atheists do charity work? That reason can't be it.

It would also seem that Theists would have more of the guilt factor that they were violating one of God's rules that a atheist would be less likely to have. It would seem rational to conclude that less guilty feelings means more crime.Doesn't "God" tell some believers to commit crime? There could be more crime because of theism.

Yes, but a very good way to make the best of it is to have a lot of money. A quick way to get a lot of money (if your poor and uneducated) is to rob a bank. No, that's not a quick way for poor, uneducated people to get a lot of money :D

[JoeEllison]

No, DOC... I mean, after all, I believe that if you were an atheist, you'd be just as dishonest and hateful as you are now.

[thatguywhojuggles]

Yes, but a very good way to make the best of it is to have a lot of money. A quick way to get a lot of money (if your poor and uneducated) is to rob a bank. Sure you might get caught and ruin your life by going to jail, but that would be your only punishment. Theists would also have to worry about 2 punishments -- this life and the afterlife.

Actually a theist doesn't have to worry about 2 punishments. He can murder babies, and then turn around and ask Jesus to forgive him, and all is well (he gets to go to heaven). Imagine him going up to a judge and saying, "I'm sorry I killed babies. Can I go now?"

[DOC]

Atheistic Russia?? You are babbling incoherently and changing your statements every few posts from crime to suicide. Is suicide a crime?.

Up until recently it was considered a felony in some US states. And it is a sin in the Christian religion. That's why the church is so against doctor assisted suicide. And didn't Dr. Kevorkian do a lot of time in prison for helping people kill themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide

[DOC]

Actually a theist doesn't have to worry about 2 punishments. He can murder babies, and then turn around and ask Jesus to forgive him, and all is well (he gets to go to heaven). Imagine him going up to a judge and saying, "I'm sorry I killed babies. Can I go now?"

I have a feeling God can figure out who is really sincere about their repentance.

[thatguywhojuggles]

DOC, if what you believe is true, can you explain why atheist make up less than 1 percent of the prison population?

http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm

[thatguywhojuggles]

I have a feeling God can figure out who is really sincere about their repentance.

But that doesn't change the point I made. A theist still doesn't have to worry about 2 punishments. If I truly believed in heaven/hell, and I did something wrong, my repentance would be absolutely sincere.

[lupus_in_fabula]

Yes, but all of those 4 countries have a higher suicide rate than the mostly Christian US. And the very rich Japan has more than double the rate of the US. Also it is no secret that atheistic Russia has extensive organized crime and corruption problems as well as other ex-Soviet satellites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Also all those countries you mentioned are highly isolated from the rest of the world and aren't subject to the same multiracial and uneven income distribution pressures that say the US or France is.

And those countries you mentioned might even have a lower crime rate if everyone was theistic. Or a higher rate if everyone was atheistic for the reasons I've given in the above posts.

Now you’re just desperately reaching for any irrelevancies in your vicinity, but they’re slipping away from you – like when trying to open a can with oily hands. (Oily hands are only useful when masturbating). What comes to ‘isolationist Scandinavia and Japan’ or ‘atheistic Russia’, you’re just wandering blindfolded and in the dark! Moreover, even if you consider suicide to be a real crime – which is highly questionable – the number of such “crimes” does not have statistical significance anyway.

Wasn’t your intention to discuss if there’s something instinct in theistic beliefs that would affect crime rates, something that cannot be explained by other sociological factors? So first we have to evaluate if there’s something in theistic beliefs that is of value in this context. The immediate point of departure would be answering the two questions presented. You might also have third question at your disposal: If there’s some wicked action that could only have been derived directly from atheistic justification. But since atheism is not an explicit belief system, the question is somewhat nonsensical. It’s almost as if such a question is only justified in a theistic context.

So here goes, a third time: 1) Name a moral act or statement by a theist that could not have been done by a non-theist. (2) Name a wicked action that could only have been derived directly from theistic justification.

[Furi]

Well with the removal of organised theistic religion, there would be an immediate drop in crimes caused by "God wanted me to do it" cases, or Angels told me to do it etc, as well as Fundy violence committed, but the the Anti Social Arses would probably find another reason to get their Hate on now that their favourite excuse has been removed.

DOC you really REALLY should find out that there is a hell of a lot more planet outside of the Americas, you could maybe try visiting Europe or Scandanavia and find out just how isolated we are. Bizarrely, most people I know think of the US as isolationist and xenophobic.

[H3LL]

Back to the OP. (It's often difficult to follow DOC's motorised goalposts)

If Everyone in the world was atheistic would there be more or less crime

Very simple and easy answer.

There would definitely be less crime.

There would be no religious crimes.

.

[The_Fire]

What?

My sentiment exactly.......And, I believe, that of the Danish Foreignminister, Primeminister and the Minister of Defense.......

[The_Fire]

Maybe he thinks that the whole of Scandinavia is situated above the polar circle, and that we only occasionally get a glimpse of the rest of the world through our TVs and computers, when the connection is good in our igloos :rolleyes:

If we were talking about Suomi, perhaps or Northern Greenland, but the rest?
I guess it would be a big suprise for DOC as well that we don't have polarbears running amuck in the streets of Copenhagen during the period of the year when the sun never rises..........

[Francesca R]

DOC, if what you believe is true, can you explain why atheist make up less than 1 percent of the prison population? Presumably, theists feel duty-bound to turn themselves in. :)

[The_Fire]

Presumably, theists feel duty-bound to turn themselves in. :)

Try that one when talking to an overworked cop......or judge....

[-Fran-]

If we were talking about Suomi, perhaps or Northern Greenland, but the rest?
I guess it would be a big suprise for DOC as well that we don't have polarbears running amuck in the streets of Copenhagen during the period of the year when the sun never rises..........

Now, now don't ruin his fantasies of an eternally frozen winter wonderland directly under the North Pole where all people eventually kill themselves because we are so isolated, or kill each other because we are such atheistic sinners :rolleyes: :p

[Tricky]

DOC does make a very compelling case for keeping theism around. It appears that the only thing that is preventing these theists from going on a murderous crime spree is their fear of being punished by God. What mayhem we would have if suddenly some evidence emerged that convinced them that this restraint was not actually in place? As DOC describes it, none of them have any actual morals of their own and must rely on the threat of Hell to keep them in line.

Fortunately, we would have more experienced atheists around who have been functioning morally for a very long time without needing such incentives. Hopefully there would be enough of them to keep a rein on the maurauding, newly freed former theists. Still, as a safeguard, it might be wise to train more to be atheists to protect us against these savage theists in case their leashes are ever released.

[Furi]

Now, now don't ruin his fantasies of an eternally frozen winter wonderland directly under the North Pole where all people eventually kill themselves because we are so isolated, or kill each other because we are such atheistic sinners :rolleyes: :p

Not to mention all your igloos are filled with meatballs, vodka, porn and flatpack deathcore Abba albums.

In fact remembering getting dragged around Ikea by my Ex or being presented with 6 Flat pack shelf units I can understand any proportionately higher suicide rate

first we get za chocolate zen ve get ze moose,
Hurdy Gurdy Bork bork bork

[The_Fire]

Now, now don't ruin his fantasies of an eternally frozen winter wonderland directly under the North Pole where all people eventually kill themselves because we are so isolated, or kill each other because we are such atheistic sinners :rolleyes: :p

*Pull a puppy eyes look*

Why not? If I can't have my fantasy of the US being a place of hatefull christian fundies burning witches and killing gay people why can he have his?
It not fair! I'm telling my mom.....

:cry:

[86kam]

In order to make any sense or answer this question accurately, one has to show if atheism or theism was at the least a factor for committing crime. Why does one commit a crime? Because they're poor? They believe or don't believe? They are a sociopath or psychopath? I could be wrong, but crime's that are committed due to religious reasons are far less than let's say perhaps poverty, addictions, greed, or psychological disorder. One must also show how much crimes were committed due to atheism. For example, how many bank robberies were committed in order to help fund some atheist movement? Or violence against others because they were NOT atheists?

Seems the OP is asking whether atheists lack the morals that would facilitate them committing crimes. Well every stat that I've seen regarding prison populations have the believers, usually Christians, at the top of the list followed by Muslims. At the bottom or near are the non-religious and/or atheists, how would the OP explain this?

[Tricky]

In order to make any sense or answer this question accurately, one has to show if atheism or theism was at the least a factor for committing crime. Why does one commit a crime? Because they're poor? They believe or don't believe? They are a sociopath or psychopath? I could be wrong, but crime's that are committed due to religious reasons are far less than let's say perhaps poverty, addictions, greed, or psychological disorder. One must also show how much crimes were committed due to atheism. For example, how many bank robberies were committed in order to help fund some atheist movement? Or violence against others because they were NOT atheists?

Seems the OP is asking whether atheists lack the morals that would facilitate them committing crimes. Well every stat that I've seen regarding prison populations have the believers, usually Christians, at the top of the list followed by Muslims. At the bottom or near are the non-religious and/or atheists, how would the OP explain this?
The same as always. Those guys in prison claiming to be Christians aren't True™ Christians.

[Mobyseven]

crime would remain the same.

Not true. It would drop - after all, once us evil Atheists have butchered the believing population of the world, who are we gonna kill then? Eachother? Don't make me laugh, you and I both know that no weapon can harm us - we sold our soul to Athe for that exact benefit!

[joobz]

Not true. It would drop - after all, once us evil Atheists have butchered the believing population of the world, who are we gonna kill then? Eachother? Don't make me laugh, you and I both know that no weapon can harm us - we sold our soul to Athe for that exact benefit!
Oh that's right. I forgot about the packs we all made while attending the church of atheism.

[Mojo]

DOC, if what you believe is true, can you explain why atheist make up less than 1 percent of the prison population? Presumably, theists feel duty-bound to turn themselves in. :)


No, it's because most of the atheist criminals are smart enough not to get caught. ;)

[joobz]

But in my opinion, if everyone in the world (rich, poor, and middle class) was atheistic and believed there was nothing after death, I would have to believe there would be more crime in the world.
This is interesting.
You have effectively negated your own faith by claiming it is equal with others. You know, this view is rather achristian and goes against one of the main commandments, thou shalt have no gods before me.

[aggle-rithm]

First of all, let me point out I'm not saying people who claim to be Christian or Jewish or any other theist belief don't commit crimes. And I'm not saying that there aren't some very ethical atheists out there. But in my opinion, if everyone in the world (rich, poor, and middle class) was atheistic and believed there was nothing after death, I would have to believe there would be more crime in the world.

If I believed that there was only one shot at life, that there were no other chances after this, I wouldn't want to spend it in jail.

[aggle-rithm]

For example, think of a poor neighborhood in your area. Now take away all the churches in those poor neighborhoods, because if everyone was atheistic there would be no church going.
And if you take away those churches you'll also have to take away any charity work done by those churches. I have to believe if you took away the churches and charity work those churches do, crime would increase in that area.

If I believed that poor, starving children were going to have untold riches after they died, I wouldn't worry too much about them. The sooner they starve to death, the sooner they get untold riches. However, if I believed that they had one and only one shot at life, I would be much more likely to want to help them.

[aggle-rithm]

(Oily hands are only useful when masturbating).

And then, only if you undo the zipper BEFORE applying the oil.

[bokonon]

Yes, but a very good way to make the best of it is to have a lot of money. A quick way to get a lot of money (if your poor and uneducated) is to rob a bank. Sure you might get caught and ruin your life by going to jail, but that would be your only punishment. Theists would also have to worry about 2 punishments -- this life and the afterlife.
But Christian theists know that the only requirement for heaven is to accept Jesus, who forgives all sins. So while the atheist realizes that he's potentially throwing away a large chunk of the only life he'll ever have (unless, like Charles Manson, he enjoys life behind bars), the theist Christian can rationalize that, even if he's caught, he can look forward to an eternal reward if he repents. I think this probably accounts for a large percentage of the jailhouse conversions we're always hearing about.

I don't think it would have any effect on crime. People turn to crime out of stupidity, laziness, or desperation, and none of those is really affected by a belief in a deity.

[Foster Zygote]

And I'm not saying that there aren't some very ethical atheists out there.

What you are implying is that those ethical atheists are a minority among atheists. Tell me DOC, why are atheists under-represented in the U.S. prison population? If atheists are more likely to commit crimes then why aren't they more likely to go to prison?

[DOC]

DOC, if what you believe is true, can you explain why atheist make up less than 1 percent of the prison population?

http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm

Well there could be several reasons for this. One is maybe a higher percentage of atheists are college graduates than the average population and as the your atheistic website reported

"Dr. Christian, Superintendant of the NY State Reformatories, checked
22,000 prison inmates and found only 4 college graduates."

Also I'll give a spiritual answer. We live in a mostly secular (some would say sinful) world. Murder and crime is a way of life in America and could get worse as the economy worsens -- just watch your nightly news. One could make a argument that atheists are more at home in this secular environment and better able to adjust, thus the less need to commit crime. Its no secret that the rich have gotten richer at the expense of the middle class. This is great for the rich. But negative for everyone else. Just watch the news. Things seem to be getting worse. Maybe payday is coming for our secular ways.

Also it stands to reason that your more likely to get paroled if you put down your a Christian on the prison questionaires, so why not put down your a Christian even if your an atheist. It's likely that some jail house conversions are phony in order to get out earlier.

[Furi]

Joobz post mad me look again at this.

I would have to believe there would be more crime in the world.

Why would you have to believe that there would be more crime in the world? couldn't we just try it and observe the results pleeeeease

As has been pointed out previously (in this thread and any of the other thinly disguised "Atheist = Moral Vacuum" type threads), people who do not believe in a forgiving ceiling cat or eternal life tend to value life a lot more because of this, they also tend to be a little more tolerant towards others than your typical fundy bibble babbler,

Does a religious person promoting the idea that a particular religion or lifestyle is evil count as a "hate crime"? or do they only come into effect if they are against people that believe in the same flavour god as xians.

Just think of all the "crimes" that are against Islamic or other religious laws, sort of like your suicide is a crime remnant, law only because it snuck in through catholic influence, maybe we should add abortion, contraception and my personal favourite Blasphemy. (Does Jesus sit to the right or left of Allah I forget), the moment religion is removed all of these crimes are also removed.

[Ryan O'Dine]

At the risk of derailing, I’m wondering if DOC can properly be called a “Christian Supremacist.”

Today Christian supremacy more typically means that politics and culture must submit to Christian principles, rather than to spiritual leaders personally. This view remains widespread in the United States, under the slogan, "the United States is a Christian nation." In its most extreme strains, Christian Supremacy takes the form of Christian Reconstructionism, also called Hard Dominionism.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Supremacy#Christian_supremacy_and_societ y)

And...
1. Dominionists celebrate Christian nationalism, in that they believe that the United States once was, and should once again be, a Christian nation. In this way, they deny the Enlightenment roots of American democracy.
2. Dominionists promote religious supremacy, insofar as they generally do not respect the equality of other religions, or even other versions of Christianity.
3. Dominionists endorse theocratic visions, insofar as they believe that the Ten Commandments, or "biblical law," should be the foundation of American law, and that the U.S. Constitution should be seen as a vehicle for implementing Biblical principles.

Also from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism#Dominionism_as_a_broader_movement)


There’s a little ambiguity with DOC, but I’m thinking a case could be made.

I’m also wondering if Christian supremacy is functionally equivalent to racism. That is, that the claim of superiority some religious people make with respect to the a-religious is tantamount to the claim of superiority some people make with respect to other races.

[Foster Zygote]

That's one reason, but I would think that reason would apply more to atheists. Theists would have the added benefit of a possible afterlife reward which would not apply to atheists.
Guess what DOC, I am an atheist and I am looking forward to an after-life reward too, I just won't be around to experience it personally. My after-life reward will come in the form of my children and grandchildren etc. and all the other people that I hope to effect positively with my life. If those who know me feel that doing so has made their lives better, if I can teach my children to love and respect others and value generosity and compassion, then that will make mine a life worth living. Knowing that those I love will continue on after me is all the after-life reward I need.

It would also seem that Theists would have more of the guilt factor that they were violating one of God's rules that a atheist would be less likely to have. It would seem rational to conclude that less guilty feelings means more crime.
It would seem rational only if you assume that people need the fear of punishment to feel guilty about harming others. You keep doing good things out of fear of punishment, and I'll keep doing good things because I take pleasure in the happiness of others and feel pain when others suffer.

[Foster Zygote]

At the risk of derailing...

This thread was pointed at a cliff from the first post, so knock yourself out.

[Ladewig]

Also I'll give a spiritual answer. We live in a mostly secular (some would say sinful) world. Murder and crime is a way of life in America and could get worse as the economy worsens -- just watch your nightly news.

So if the number of Americans calling themselves Christian is around 80%, and all nine Supreme Court Justices identify themselves as following a religion, and all modern U.S. presidents have been Christian, and the percentage of atheists has never risen above 12%, then why do you think murder and crime is a way of life here? Are you seriously suggesting that atheists have that much power that they can make murder and crime a way of life in a Christian nation?

[SomeGuy]

Up until recently it was considered a felony in some US states. And it is a sin in the Christian religion. That's why the church is so against doctor assisted suicide. And didn't Dr. Kevorkian do a lot of time in prison for helping people kill themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide

And wouldn't that be part of the reason that often in America assisted suicide in case of a terminal will be listed by a doctor as "Death of natural causes"

If assisted suicide is not illegal than the official suicide number will go up, without the actual number of suicides going up.

Also I think Scandanavia has a high number of suicides just because it's got such long periods of dark in winter which is known to enhance feelings of depression.

But why do you bring this up anyways in a discussion about crime rates as a function of theism...

[Furi]

No, it's because most of the atheist criminals are smart enough not to get caught. ;)

Seems DOC might agree with you :p

Well there could be several reasons for this. One is maybe a higher percentage of atheists are college graduates than the average population and as the your atheistic website reported

"Dr. Christian, Superintendant of the NY State Reformatories, checked
22,000 prison inmates and found only 4 college graduates."

Also I'll give a spiritual answer. We live in a mostly secular (some would say sinful) world. Murder and crime is a way of life in America and could get worse as the economy worsens -- just watch your nightly news. One could make a argument that atheists are more at home in this secular environment and better able to adjust, thus the less need to commit crime. Its no secret that the rich have gotten richer at the expense of the middle class. This is great for the rich. But negative for everyone else. Just watch the news. Things seem to be getting worse. Maybe payday is coming for our secular ways.

Rest of the world and the bulk of the Human race calling DOC, are you recieving us? Over.

If you stated "if everyone in certain states in the US was an atheist, would there be more or less crime?", you might have had some people agreeing with you (might), however you stated WORLD so remember that this is a global point of view and you might want to consider what will happen to the other 95% of the worlds population, who may or may not live in a secular enviroment, or may have quite a stable economy thankyou very much, and as for rich exploiting the middle classes, maybe in your economic framework sunshine.

I like my secular planet, even the parts of it containing rabid anti-social prosetylising loons.

[Francesca R]

No, it's because most of the atheist criminals are smart enough not to get caught. ;)We could outlaw atheism. That would rebalance the prison statistics and would make DOC's case that more religion would lower crime ;)

[Neutiquam Erro]

Jumping in late here, and it may have already been mentioned, but DOC's comment earlier about Norway, Sweden, Japan, etc. being "isolated" rings a bell with me. Throughout my church-going years in the Bible Belt of the U.S., I've seen this "observation" tossed out many, many times. It is generally offered in a public setting where it would be unacceptable to simply say, "Yeah, but there ain't no N*****s in Norway."

I'm absolutely not suggesting that this is DOC's meaning, but I have personal experience of such language being used in just this way.

[Terry]

For example, think of a poor neighborhood in your area. Now take away all the churches in those poor neighborhoods, because if everyone was atheistic there would be no church going.
And if you take away those churches you'll also have to take away any charity work done by those churches.

Why couldn't the charity work be done by some other organisation? Are you suggesting that atheist people don't give to charity?

[Rufo]

First of all, let me point out I'm not saying people who claim to be Christian or Jewish or any other theist belief don't commit crimes. And I'm not saying that there aren't some very ethical atheists out there. But in my opinion, if everyone in the world (rich, poor, and middle class) was atheistic and believed there was nothing after death, I would have to believe there would be more crime in the world.
From your later reasoning, it seems you are not actually referring to just any theists when making your comparison with atheists, but rather a specific group of theists with whom you share your religious and moral values. Please, do not equate 'theism' with specific religions. Or do you actually mean that regardless which religion people belonged to, it would result in less crime than an atheist population?

I do not agree with your argument either way, but it would certainly make a nice change of pace if you were arguing that theism itself inproves morals, rather than specific religions.

[Bikewer]

I've always been struck by the various flavors of Mafiosi (organized crime in general) who engage in criminal enterprise while maintaining a strong religious tradition.
The Italian, Irish, and Jewish "mobs" all maintained strong family and religious traditions, separating them from "the business" by some odd rationalization without suffering from cognitive dissonance.
If we look at the past few year's crop of high-level corporate criminals, we'd likely see a rather large percentage who were at least nominally religious.

This is perhaps just window dressing on the part of the criminals; put up a good societal face and folks won't suspect you....
But it seems that many of these people somehow manage to be actual believers while at the same time engaging in truly reprehensible behavior.
Ah, the human mind....

[A Christian Sceptic]

Seems the OP is asking whether atheists lack the morals that would facilitate them committing crimes. Well every stat that I've seen regarding prison populations have the believers, usually Christians, at the top of the list followed by Muslims. At the bottom or near are the non-religious and/or atheists, how would the OP explain this?

Where they Christians or Muslims before or after they went to prison? Did they view themself as a Christian or Muslim while they were committing the crime?

[joobz]

Where they Christians or Muslims before or after they went to prison?
Judging by statistics, most likely yes.
I will admit that there are probably some atheists who convert out of survival instincts. It's difficult to be the lone man in prison.
Did they view themself as a Christian or Muslim while they were committing the crime?
would it matter? They still commited the crime even with the christian/muslim influence.

[Foster Zygote]

Let me see if I have this right: Atheists commit crimes and then convert to Christianity in prison giving the false impression that few atheists are imprisoned?

[A Christian Sceptic]

I do believe DOC thinks that religion is the only way to get morals. That is not the case, according to all my anthroplogy studies that is, - all cultures have structure, order, and morals. In fact, morals appears to be built (or hardwired if you will) into every human regardless of religious affiliation. That is, there is an overall universal morality that cultures apply and interpret uniquely. See
Moral Minds: How Nature Designed Our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong by Marc Hauser for one evolutionists current theories on how this might work.

According to my criminology classes:
As to reasons for commiting crimes - Criminologists have about 7+ leading theories on why crimes are committed. They have so many theories because there are so many reasons people commit crimes - and (my personal conclusion) religion seems to quite often be a justifier more than the cause / goal of the crime.

Criminologists do know, though, that church attendance, community involvement, strong families and positive relationships do decrease the liklihood of crimes to take place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_control_theory

Other theories:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_association
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labeling_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory_%28criminology%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory_%28criminology%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_disorganization_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_learning_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strain_theory_%28sociology%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcultural_theory

[Foster Zygote]

I do believe DOC thinks that religion is the only way to get morals. That is not the case, according to all my anthroplogy studies that is, - all cultures have structure, order, and morals. In fact, morals appears to be built (or hardwired if you will) into every human regardless of religious affiliation. That is, there is an overall universal morality that cultures apply and interpret uniquely. See
Moral Minds: How Nature Designed Our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong by Marc Hauser for one evolutionists current theories on how this might work.

According to my criminology classes:
As to reasons for commiting crimes - Criminologists have about 7+ leading theories on why crimes are committed. They have so many theories because there are so many reasons people commit crimes - and (my personal conclusion) religion seems to quite often be a justifier more than the cause / goal of the crime.

Criminologists do know, though, that church attendance, community involvement, strong families and positive relationships do decrease the liklihood of crimes to take place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_control_theory

Other theories:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_association
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labeling_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory_%28criminology%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory_%28criminology%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_disorganization_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_learning_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strain_theory_%28sociology%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcultural_theory

I am in agreement with you. I would only like to add that community involvement, strong families and positive relationships are all possible without church attendance. I'm not implying that your intent was to state otherwise, I'm simply anticipating DOC's response.

[A Christian Sceptic]

I am in agreement with you. I would only like to add that community involvement, strong families and positive relationships are all possible without church attendance. I'm not implying that your intent was to state otherwise, I'm simply anticipating DOC's response.

You're correct. I should have clairified that.

[joobz]

Also all those countries you mentioned are highly isolated from the rest of the world and aren't subject to the same multiracial and uneven income distribution pressures that say the US or France is.

And those countries you mentioned might even have a lower crime rate if everyone was theistic. Or a higher rate if everyone was atheistic for the reasons I've given in the above posts.
In other words, your isolation argument concedes the point that atheistic societies can be less criminal than religious societies. this fact counters your entire premise and demonstrates that there are many other factors which determine crime which mask the benefits (if any) of religion. Indeed, I could go one step further and give examples of religiously motivated crimes and further hurt your case, but it's not important.


the key is, religous/areligious isn't as important in determining crime rate as is poverty, educational level, prejudice.

[A Christian Sceptic]

In other words, your isolation argument concedes the point that atheistic societies can be less criminal than religious societies. this fact counters your entire premise and demonstrates that there are many other factors which determine crime which mask the benefits (if any) of religion. Indeed, I could go one step further and give examples of religiously motivated crimes and further hurt your case, but it's not important.


the key is, religous/areligious isn't as important in determining crime rate as is poverty, educational level, prejudice.

I would just like to add that crime rates / statistics are not a simple comparision within a country let alone between countries.

Factors going into statistics include:
The definition of particular crimes (If one country has a broader definition it will appear more crime is occurring - even though the actions taken might be equal but just that in the other country any actions outside the narrower definition isn't considered a crime)

differing definitions of types of crimes (countries might classify the same crime into differing categories - a misdemeanor in one country might be a felony in another)

Those are just some of the many differences between countries crime stats / rates.

[Ladewig]

Let me see if I have this right: Atheists commit crimes and then convert to Christianity in prison giving the false impression that few atheists are imprisoned?


I am not sure which post you are responding to, but I think DOC has it right when he says:


Also it stands to reason that your more likely to get paroled if you put down you're a Christian on the prison questionaires, so why not put down you're a Christian even if you're an atheist. It's likely that some jail house conversions are phony in order to get out earlier.

[Furi]

Judging by statistics, most likely yes.
I will admit that there are probably some atheists who convert out of survival instincts. It's difficult to be the lone man in prison.

would it matter? They still commited the crime even with the christian/muslim influence.

They might also convert, if religious beliefs allow you certain privelages, maybe some quiet chapel time and some communion wine etc. you might also find that some faithers turned to rejection of their belifs after being caught

Table 8.5 (section 8) on this XL file supplied by the Home Office (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/omcs.html) has population of UK English and Welsh prisons sorted by Religion.

the figures to me seem to reflect the distribution of beliefs pretty well* rather than any specific predilection for faithers to do naughtiness (No Jedis though).

*using British Election Studies, in British Social Attitudes 2006/2007 on religion of respondant bouut 39% No religion around the 50% for all flavours of xianity, some other interesting bits on there as well (http://nesstar.esds.ac.uk/webview/index.jsp?v=2&mode=documentation&submode=abstract&study=http%3A%2F%2Fnesstar.esds.ac.uk%3A80%2Fobj%2 FfStudy%2F5618&top=yes)

[joobz]

Well there could be several reasons for this. One is maybe a higher percentage of atheists are college graduates than the average population and as the your atheistic website reported

"Dr. Christian, Superintendant of the NY State Reformatories, checked
22,000 prison inmates and found only 4 college graduates."
Then it seems that education is a better way to reduce crime rates. I wonder of those 4 college graduates, how many were atheists? Why don't you advocate college education for everyone? It seems to be a better cure to crime than religion.

Also I'll give a spiritual answer. We live in a mostly secular (some would say sinful) world. Do you say this?
Murder and crime is a way of life in America and could get worse as the economy worsens -- just watch your nightly news.
I live in america and it's not my way of life. Actually, where I live there is an extremely low crime and murder rate. Your statements are nonsense.

One could make a argument that atheists are more at home in this secular environment and better able to adjust, thus the less need to commit crime. because the secular government of the US allows freedom of religion, atheists are more at home? You're funny.

Its no secret that the rich have gotten richer at the expense of the middle class. This is great for the rich. But negative for everyone else. Just watch the news. Things seem to be getting worse. Complain to the republicans, laissez-faire economics and free-trade. Would a theocracy be better? Ask Iran.

Maybe payday is coming for our secular ways.
Please explain. What secular ways are you referring to?

Freedom of Religion?
Freedom of speech?
Right to Bear arms?
The Right to a fair and speedy trial?
The Right to face your accusers?
The protection against wrongful search and seizures?
women's rights?
Civil Rights?
Abolition of slavery?
Social security?
medicare medicaid?
disability rights?
Welfare?
No religious test required to take office?
equal rights acts?
FHA programs?
Peace Corps?

Are these the secular ways you are taking about? You think we deserve punishment for them?


Also it stands to reason that your more likely to get paroled if you put down your a Christian on the prison questionaires, so why not put down your a Christian even if your an atheist. It's likely that some jail house conversions are phony in order to get out earlier.This is possible. The funny thing is that most religious conversions in prison are to fit in with a group and have protection.... from the other religious people in prison. How does this factor into your argument?

[joobz]

I would just like to add that crime rates / statistics are not a simple comparision within a country let alone between countries.

Factors going into statistics include:
The definition of particular crimes (If one country has a broader definition it will appear more crime is occurring - even though the actions taken might be equal but just that in the other country any actions outside the narrower definition isn't considered a crime)

differing definitions of types of crimes (countries might classify the same crime into differing categories - a misdemeanor in one country might be a felony in another)

Those are just some of the many differences between countries crime stats / rates.
Very true. But judge the society on it's own merits then.

If christianity was to take center stage in Sweden/Norway/Japan, would crime rates remain low, go lower, or increase?

It seems that there are much greater casual relation with crime and economic disparity than with crime and religion.

[Herzblut]

You're correct. I should have clairified that.
Hello ACS,

religious activity is a negative predictor for criminal activity.

See e.g. http://129.3.20.41/eps/othr/papers/0310/0310004.pdf:

There exists a large empirical literature on the relationship between religion
and different forms of sociological deviance (including crime, suicide,
divorce, drugs, non-marital sex, etc.). Typical result from these analyzes
is that youth raised in highly religious homes are less likely to engage in
criminal activity, use drugs or alcohol, or engage in premarital sex. Effects
are found to be especially strong for children raised in strict denominations
or religiously homogenous communities. Empirical studies consistently and
that high rates of religious activity and commitment are linked with mental
health, reduced stress and increased life satisfaction. Religious effects seem to
persist even after controlling the models for age, income, gender, education,
etc. Several epidemiological studies on statistically significant religious effects
are reported in several medicine journals. Members of strict religious groups
(Mormons, 7th Day Adventists, etc.) seem to enjoy longer lives and lower
rates of cancer, stroke, hypertension and heart disease, because they follow
several health-related every-day restrictions. Broader correlations between
health and religiosity have many causes, including a negative link between
faith and stress, or a positive link between church involvement and social
support.

[Foster Zygote]

Please explain. What secular ways are you referring to?

The usual: Lack of imposed Christian prayer in public schools and teh gays, or so I would imagine.

[aggle-rithm]

Hello ACS,

religious activity is a negative predictor for criminal activity.

See e.g. http://129.3.20.41/eps/othr/papers/0310/0310004.pdf:

There exists a large empirical literature on the relationship between religion
and different forms of sociological deviance (including crime, suicide,
divorce, drugs, non-marital sex, etc.). Typical result from these analyzes
is that youth raised in highly religious homes are less likely to engage in
criminal activity, use drugs or alcohol, or engage in premarital sex. Effects
are found to be especially strong for children raised in strict denominations
or religiously homogenous communities. Empirical studies consistently and
that high rates of religious activity and commitment are linked with mental
health, reduced stress and increased life satisfaction. Religious effects seem to
persist even after controlling the models for age, income, gender, education,
etc. Several epidemiological studies on statistically significant religious effects
are reported in several medicine journals. Members of strict religious groups
(Mormons, 7th Day Adventists, etc.) seem to enjoy longer lives and lower
rates of cancer, stroke, hypertension and heart disease, because they follow
several health-related every-day restrictions. Broader correlations between
health and religiosity have many causes, including a negative link between
faith and stress, or a positive link between church involvement and social
support.



Link didn't work for me, but it seems to me that belief in God is necessary but not sufficient to put someone in the category of "religiously active", and thus allow them to reap the benefits of lower crime.

[A Christian Sceptic]

Hello ACS,

religious activity is a negative predictor for criminal activity.

See e.g. http://129.3.20.41/eps/othr/papers/0310/0310004.pdf:

There exists a large empirical literature on the relationship between religion
and different forms of sociological deviance (including crime, suicide,
divorce, drugs, non-marital sex, etc.). Typical result from these analyzes
is that youth raised in highly religious homes are less likely to engage in
criminal activity, use drugs or alcohol, or engage in premarital sex. Effects
are found to be especially strong for children raised in strict denominations
or religiously homogenous communities. Empirical studies consistently and
that high rates of religious activity and commitment are linked with mental
health, reduced stress and increased life satisfaction. Religious effects seem to
persist even after controlling the models for age, income, gender, education,
etc. Several epidemiological studies on statistically significant religious effects
are reported in several medicine journals. Members of strict religious groups
(Mormons, 7th Day Adventists, etc.) seem to enjoy longer lives and lower
rates of cancer, stroke, hypertension and heart disease, because they follow
several health-related every-day restrictions. Broader correlations between
health and religiosity have many causes, including a negative link between
faith and stress, or a positive link between church involvement and social
support.



Hey Herz,

Thanks for that info. I couldn't access that link though.

Maybe I should clarify further - I don't think simply not having a religion guarantees you'll not have morals. (It might make it easier to set those morals aside when convenient though.;))

But, being a Christian, I do understand DOC's general feelings in this and I can see how what HERZ posted would be true.

Unlike the extremes in religion that are often focused on, in my experience with Christianity (and it's been a very broad experience) I've only met a handful of people trying to apply Christianity in a negative way to justify negative things. And even in those situations there was often an underlying true reason that religion was being used to justify what they believed.

For example: I worked with a racist who didn't feel he was racist. He honestly felt asians were sub-human. He mixed in his discussions religion (the only times he brought up religion was in this context.) but upon further talking/arguing he revealed his real reason for his feelings (not a justification by any means). His real reasons had to do with his experiences during the Korean war - not religion.

[joobz]

Link didn't work for me, but it seems to me that belief in God is necessary but not sufficient to put someone in the category of "religiously active", and thus allow them to reap the benefits of lower crime.I couldn't get the link to work.

Just by the abstract, the study has a rather strong bias
Typical result from these analyzes is that youth raised in highly religious homes are less likely to engage in criminal activity, use drugs or alcohol, or engage in premarital sex
What age group are they calling youths?10, 15? 5?
Is drinking alcohol equal to using drugs?
Is premarital sex a bad thing?
and are these both as bad as "criminal activity"?


It would be interesting to see the happiness scale controlled for homes that have structure and a complete family unit but aren't religious.

Also, did they control for families which aren't part of the community homogeneity?

[Powa]

Fixed link:

http://129.3.20.41/eps/othr/papers/0310/0310004.pdf (http://129.3.20.41/eps/othr/papers/0310/0310004.pdf)

[86kam]

if everyone in the world (rich, poor, and middle class) was atheistic and believed there was nothing after death, I would have to believe there would be more crime in the world.
How do you know what constitutes a crime now would be a crime in an atheist-run world? Let us assume that atheists are immoral, moreso than theists. I think it would be safe to assume our evil atheist laws would reflect our evil atheist morals, or lack thereof. Therefore, we may NOT commit more crimes because our laws reflect what ATHEISTS view as right and wrong, not THEISTS.

As to the question of who commits more crime in THIS world, I think an accurate finding would be to compare the overall population of a given group to the amount of prisoners belonging to said group. Then, I think, we can get a more accurate view of who gets incarcerated more, by comparing the percentages. If I have a million Christians in a given population, and 250,000 of them are jailed, that's 25%. If I have 100,00 atheists in a given population and 20,000 are jailed, that's 20%. So in this scenario, 5% more christians than atheists are convicted of crimes. I'm no statistician, but I think that's how it's worked out.

[Herzblut]

I couldn't access that link though.

Sorry, now without colon:

http://129.3.20.41/eps/othr/papers/0310/0310004.pdf

EDIT: Thanks Powa, I oversaw your fix.

[Herzblut]

Maybe I should clarify further - I don't think simply not having a religion guarantees you'll not have morals.

Of course not, humanism can be very secular. Mine is at least.


(It might make it easier to set those morals aside when convenient though.;))

:D

I think, again, the key is religious engagement. It seems, religious affiliation alone is insufficient to implant strong morality. I don't need religion, though, to have my moral codes set in stone. Maybe it took a little longer..


Unlike the extremes in religion that are often focused on, in my experience with Christianity (and it's been a very broad experience) I've only met a handful of people trying to apply Christianity in a negative way to justify negative things.

Agreed. But there is religious fundamentalism, which is generally positively associated with violence. It bears the risk that people want to impose their ideas to society, even violently.


For example: I worked with a racist who didn't feel he was racist. He honestly felt asians were sub-human. He mixed in his discussions religion (the only times he brought up religion was in this context.) but upon further talking/arguing he revealed his real reason for his feelings (not a justification by any means). His real reasons had to do with his experiences during the Korean war - not religion.
Good example. It shows, I think, how those notions are often fueled by traumatic personal experience.

[A Christian Sceptic]

I think, again, the key is religious engagement. It seems, religious affiliation alone is insufficient to implant strong morality.


Very true. Saying your involved and being involved (engaged) are not the same exactly.


Agreed. But there is religious fundamentalism, which is generally positively associated with violence. It bears the risk that people want to impose their ideas to society, even violently.


I suppose it depends on the definition of fundamentalism. As for Christians I know many people who may be defined as Fundamentalists in one sense (literal interpretation of the bible, evangelical, creationists, etc) but their enthusiasm, insistence on spreading the gospel and concern for people is tempered by their interpretations and beliefs on being nice, loving your neighbor, being honest, etc. They might be argumentative, conflictive, and downright annoying to people they are concerned about, but never violent.

I've heard and read in the news of Christians who take a violent approach but never heard of them teaching / preaching this within an organized church (correction - I've heard of some starting their own churches) - overall it seems to be individual actions. It is still a concern though if fellow church members are aware and don't do anything. I know this is only my personal experieces but I don't know where I would even go in America to seek out Christians who believe in the use of violence in this manner. It definitely wouldn't be within any church I'm aware of. I can't speak for other religions though.

ADDED: And no - I'm not looking and not interested in finding any. :)

[-Fran-]

Not to mention all your igloos are filled with meatballs, vodka, porn and flatpack deathcore Abba albums.

:D Now that doesn't sound too bad, why would we want to kill ourselves :p


In fact remembering getting dragged around Ikea by my Ex or being presented with 6 Flat pack shelf units I can understand any proportionately higher suicide rate

OK, I can't contradict that though :( ;)


first we get za chocolate zen ve get ze moose,
Hurdy Gurdy Bork bork bork

Chocolate? Hey, isn't that the Swiss who's famous for that? :)

[joobz]

I suppose it depends on the definition of fundamentalism. As for Christians I know many people who may be defined as Fundamentalists in one sense (literal interpretation of the bible, evangelical, creationists, etc) but their enthusiasm, insistence on spreading the gospel and concern for people is tempered by their interpretations and beliefs on being nice, loving your neighbor, being honest, etc. They might be argumentative, conflictive, and downright annoying to people they are concerned about, but never violent.
I've also seen fundamentalists (the kind you describe) abuse homosexuals. Or gay youths raised in a fundamentalist family commit suicide.

Fundemendalists need need not preach violence explicitly to result in violent behaviors in their followers.

Indeed, the scariest part is when they commit violent acts without even considering them as violent or bad.
Your racism example is a perfect example of this. As is the justifications made over honor killings.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Sorry to derail one of DOC's Christo-fascist railings against atheists...


If Everyone (sic) in the world was atheistic would there be more or less crime.(sic)
Is it just me, or does anyone else hate the use of the suffix "ic" when someone is trying to describe an ideology or philosophy? For example:

Atheistic
Socialistic
Capitalistic
Materialistic
Spirtualistic

UGH! It sounds so damn clumsy. It's the sort of grammar that I expect to hear from denizen of the trailer parks. Why not just drop the 'ic?" You'll be saying the exact same thing and NOT sound like a gorram caller to Sean Hannity.

[joobz]

Sorry to derail one of DOC's Christo-fascist railings against atheists...


Is it just me, or does anyone else hate the use of the suffix "ic" when someone is trying to describe an ideology or philosophy? For example:

Atheistic
Socialistic
Capitalistic
Materialistic
Spirtualistic

UGH! It sounds so damn clumsy. It's the sort of grammar that I expect to hear from denizen of the trailer parks. Why not just drop the 'ic?" You'll be saying the exact same thing and NOT sound like a gorram caller to Sean Hannity.
Why do you need to be so Darn pendantic.

[JoeEllison]

Sorry to derail one of DOC's Christo-fascist railings against atheists...


Is it just me, or does anyone else hate the use of the suffix "ic" when someone is trying to describe an ideology or philosophy? For example:

Atheistic
Socialistic
Capitalistic
Materialistic
Spirtualistic

UGH! It sounds so damn clumsy. It's the sort of grammar that I expect to hear from denizen of the trailer parks. Why not just drop the 'ic?" You'll be saying the exact same thing and NOT sound like a gorram caller to Sean Hannity.You a Browncoat? Shiny!

[Herzblut]

I know this is only my personal experieces but I don't know where I would even go in America to seek out Christians who believe in the use of violence in this manner. It definitely wouldn't be within any church I'm aware of. I can't speak for other religions though.
Regarding Islam and bombings have a look at the excellent session of Scott Atran in Beyond Belief 2:

http://thesciencenetwork.org/BeyondBelief2/watch/

Based upon an analysis of the Madrid bombings Atran basically says that football is more important than religion for the formation and activation of such a terrorist cell.

[Achán hiNidráne]

You a Browncoat? Shiny!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/46/133013640_852233f94c.jpg

Of course I am!

[Foster Zygote]

That's one reason, but I would think that reason would apply more to atheists. Theists would have the added benefit of a possible afterlife reward which would not apply to atheists.

It would also seem that Theists would have more of the guilt factor that they were violating one of God's rules that a atheist would be less likely to have. It would seem rational to conclude that less guilty feelings means more crime.

If a man wants to steal an old woman's purse but does not simply because a police officer is standing near his only route of escape, is he really behaving morally?

You are doing a huge disservice to the vast majority of Christians by implying that they would rather do immoral things, but only refrain out of fear of being punished.

If what you say is true then it also follows that religious people will gladly commit horrific crimes, including genocide, as long as they believe their god will reward them for doing so.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Why do you need to be so Darn pendantic.

I can see your point there, but take DOC's original title (correcting for grammar):

"If everyone in the world was atheistic would there be more or less crime?"

Vs.

"If everyone in the world was atheist would there be more or less crime?"

It says the exact same thing, but the latter seems to flow better.

[H3LL]

Eeugh!

Icky!

.

[Foster Zygote]

I can see your point there, but take DOC's original title (correcting for grammar):

"If everyone in the world was atheistic would there be more or less crime?"

Vs.

"If everyone in the world was atheist would there be more or less crime?"

It says the exact same thing, but the latter seems to flow better.

I think what Joobz meant to ask was: Why do you need to be so darn pendantic?

[joobz]

I can see your point there, but take DOC's original title (correcting for grammar):

I had a point? I was just cracking a joke while simultaneoustly avoiding the grant that I need to work on.


However, I will say that in my mind atheistic sounds better. But my grammar's terrible, so don't listen to me.


ETA: Foster Zygote it correct. I didn't highlight the end of the word to maintain a level of subtly to the joke, which helps the funny go down easier.

[Achán hiNidráne]

You are doing a huge disservice to the vast majority of Christians by implying that they would rather do immoral things, but only refrain out of fear of being punished.


Indeed, DOC has, with a single post, denigrated the whole of humanity by implying that we're all murderous, rapinous, thieves ready to loose anarchy, pain, and destruction upon one another unless they are made to believe that we'll be sentenced to sadistic torture for all eternity by a invisible autocrat who "loves" us.

BTW, what's the point of punishment if it's eternal? What lesson are you trying to impart upon a wrong-doer if there is never a chance for them to act upon that lesson? What good is punishment, in this life or a hypothetical afterlife, if there is no chance for even the worst offender to make a fresh start?

The only thing that the concept of Hell satisfies is the believer's lust for some kind of cosmic vengeance where Hell becomes an extension of the believer's bigotries. If those filthy sec-u-lar laws won't allow them to murder gays, abortion providers, liberals, and atheists in THIS reality(like the "Good Book" tells them to do, they can take solace that their celestial tyrant will inflict suffering upon the individuals that dislike after they die.

It's a sick, evil belief, and those who believe it are just as twisted.

[Achán hiNidráne]

I think what Joobz meant to ask was: Why do you need to be so darn pendantic?

I got the joke. I have my issues, but stupidity isn't one of them.

[joobz]

BTW, what's the point of punishment if it's eternal? What lesson are you trying to impart upon a wrong-doer if there is never a chance for them to act upon that lesson? What good is punishment, in this life or a hypothetical afterlife, if there is no chance for even the worst offender to make a fresh start?
The only thing that the concept of Hell satisfies is the believer's lust for some kind of cosmic vengeance where Hell becomes an extension of the believer's bigotries. If those filthy sec-u-lar laws won't allow them to murder gays, abortion providers, liberals, and atheists in THIS reality(like the "Good Book" tells them to do, they can take solace that their celestial tyrant will inflict suffering upon the individuals that dislike after they die.

That's a rather good point.

[Mister Earl]

Meh. Far too often I hear the battlecry: "Atheists don't have morals!" "If you don't believe in god, then you're going to commit crimes because you don't care!" Ignorance isn't bliss. I counter that I do good things because I WANT to, not because I somehow think I HAVE to. I take responsibility for ALL of my actions, both good and bad. I don't hide behind a Bible and say, "Well, it tells me to do it in here, so it's okay."

[A Christian Sceptic]

BTW, what's the point of punishment if it's eternal? What lesson are you trying to impart upon a wrong-doer if there is never a chance for them to act upon that lesson? What good is punishment, in this life or a hypothetical afterlife, if there is no chance for even the worst offender to make a fresh start?


FYI:
It depends on how you view the punishment and it's purpose. Is it simply judicial (like a jail sentence) or a punishment that is remedial (to bring change)? There are Christians that believe in each type and there are Christians who don't believe it is eternal for all or even any.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Meh. Far too often I hear the battlecry: "Atheists don't have morals!" "If you don't believe in god, then you're going to commit crimes because you don't care!" Ignorance isn't bliss. I counter that I do good things because I WANT to, not because I somehow think I HAVE to. I take responsibility for ALL of my actions, both good and bad. I don't hide behind a Bible and say, "Well, it tells me to do it in here, so it's okay."

That gives me an idea...

Sound OFF fellow atheists! What are your "crimes."* What terrible unlawful acts have you committed lately? Since we don't believe in a cosmic, abusive-father-figure to keep us mere mortals in line, we've HAD to have done something horrendous!

Let's see.... Oh! Last year, I WAS TWO MONTHS LATE WITH MY STATE AUTO-REGISTRATION FEE! :eek:

*I know this is line would be better when debating fredcarr, but I couldn't resist. Besides. all religion is Scientology to me.

[Foster Zygote]

I got the joke. I have my issues, but stupidity isn't one of them.

Sorry, it wasn't my intent to imply so.

[Foster Zygote]

That gives me an idea...

Sound OFF fellow atheists! What are your "crimes."* What terrible unlawful acts have you committed lately? Since we don't believe in a cosmic, abusive-father-figure to keep us mere mortals in line, we've HAD to have done something horrendous!

Let's see.... Oh! Last year, I WAS TWO MONTHS LATE WITH MY STATE AUTO-REGISTRATION FEE! :eek:

*I know this is line would be better when debating fredcarr, but I couldn't resist. Besides. all religion is Scientology to me.

Let's see... Today I drove 5 mph over the posted speed limit. Oh, and I abducted a hobo at the rail yard for the weekly human sacrifice to Athe.

[Achán hiNidráne]

FYI:
There are Christians that believe in each type and there are Christians who don't believe it is eternal for all or even any.

The topic at hand isn't whatever cherry-picked, salad bar, maudlin, hearts-and-flowers theology you cling to like an infant's security blanket, CS.

DOC is the one who is claiming that whoever steps out of line will face "the hellfire," so THAT is what we're talking about.

[JoeEllison]

Indeed, DOC has, with a single post, denigrated the whole of humanity by implying that we're all murderous, rapinous, thieves ready to loose anarchy, pain, and destruction upon one another unless they are made to believe that we'll be sentenced to sadistic torture for all eternity by a invisible autocrat who "loves" us.
Don't you think that those sorts of comments say more about DOC, than it could ever say about humanity? DOC is the one who, deep down, wants to go out and rape and steal and murder, and only his fear of punishment keeps him from doing so. His definition of "Christian morality" seems to come down to "don't do bad things because you'll get in trouble", which is a completely morally bankrupt worldview.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Don't you think that those sorts of comments say more about DOC, than it could ever say about humanity?


Well, I did write...

It's a sick, evil belief, and those who believe it are just as twisted....and yes, that comment was directed at DOC.

I remember listening to an interview between Alan Combs and Richard Dawkins (see below) where a caller all but admitted that without a belief in God he would indeed murder, rape, and/or steal from his neighbors. Compare this oh-so-very Christian individual with Dawkins, a man of no religious beliefs who has done nothing morally questionable that we know about.

CmzF15elro4

[A Christian Sceptic]

The topic at hand isn't whatever cherry-picked, salad bar, maudlin, hearts-and-flowers theology you cling to like an infant's security blanket, CS.

:duck: hahaha.


DOC is the one who is claiming that whoever steps out of line will face "the hellfire," so THAT is what we're talking about.

Well - it wasn't clear that it was directed towards DOC personally. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Tanstaafl]

That gives me an idea...

Sound OFF fellow atheists! What are your "crimes."* What terrible unlawful acts have you committed lately? Since we don't believe in a cosmic, abusive-father-figure to keep us mere mortals in line, we've HAD to have done something horrendous!

Let's see.... Oh! Last year, I WAS TWO MONTHS LATE WITH MY STATE AUTO-REGISTRATION FEE! :eek:

*I know this is line would be better when debating fredcarr, but I couldn't resist. Besides. all religion is Scientology to me.


I exceeded the speed limit, solely because I have not accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior.

[Ravenwood]

That gives me an idea...

Sound OFF fellow atheists! What are your "crimes."* What terrible unlawful acts have you committed lately? Since we don't believe in a cosmic, abusive-father-figure to keep us mere mortals in line, we've HAD to have done something horrendous!

Let's see.... Oh! Last year, I WAS TWO MONTHS LATE WITH MY STATE AUTO-REGISTRATION FEE! :eek:

*I know this is line would be better when debating fredcarr, but I couldn't resist. Besides. all religion is Scientology to me.

Uhm, besides my occasional forays in producing distilled spirits...not much...

[Mister Agenda]

Yes, but all of those 4 countries have a higher suicide rate than the mostly Christian US. And the very rich Japan has more than double the rate of the US. Also it is no secret that atheistic Russia has extensive organized crime and corruption problems as well as other ex-Soviet satellites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Also all those countries you mentioned are highly isolated from the rest of the world and aren't subject to the same multiracial and uneven income distribution pressures that say the US or France is.

And those countries you mentioned might even have a lower crime rate if everyone was theistic. Or a higher rate if everyone was atheistic for the reasons I've given in the above posts.

When nearly everyone in Japan was theistic, the warrior caste had the right to kill peasants for being irritating. Japan has a tradition of honorable suicide rooted deeply in the theistic side of its culture.

The atheists in the former Soviet Union were largely communists. The atheists elsewhere are largely humanists. It isn't the atheism per se that leads to low crime statistics for atheists, it is embracing a tradition of compassion. Atheism doesn't tell people how to behave, for that they need a philosophy. Communism isn't such a good philosophy, IMHO.

There may be a more direct link between atheists and suicide in other countries, it would be an interesting study to try to parse out the reasons that might be.

The 2nd paragraph undercuts the logic of using those countries to link atheism and suicide rates, too.

The 3rd paragraph basically says evidence doesn't matter.

[Doubt]

Russia has extensive organized crime and corruption problems as well as other ex-Soviet satellites.



Your knowledge of Russia is lacking. I am in Russia on business and won't be leaving for over a month.

Organized religion here is in bad shape. This is, as you would expect, the result of communism. But I have observed that a great many people here have some sort of poorly defined belief system that may or may not include a higher power. Many are what would be called "spiritual" in the US these days.

I am sure that the orthodox church would consider these people atheists. Some call themselves atheists. Many are not at all atheists or would best be described as agnostics.

As for organized crime, I have no experience with that. But it should suffice to say that the centers of traditional organized crime in the US involve people who are definitely not atheists.

[Mister Agenda]

That gives me an idea...

Sound OFF fellow atheists! What are your "crimes."* What terrible unlawful acts have you committed lately? Since we don't believe in a cosmic, abusive-father-figure to keep us mere mortals in line, we've HAD to have done something horrendous!

Let's see.... Oh! Last year, I WAS TWO MONTHS LATE WITH MY STATE AUTO-REGISTRATION FEE! :eek:

*I know this is line would be better when debating fredcarr, but I couldn't resist. Besides. all religion is Scientology to me.

Hmm. I often drive faster than the posted speed limit, but not faster than the flow of traffic. I've smoked pot, but that was a long time ago. I shoplifted as a teenager but I believed in God then. I committed adultery once, but I didn't know she was married...the first time (I have trouble turning down sexual offers from women I'm attracted to, a weakness that has only rarely been an issue due to the infrequency of occurence), but she was a Christian and I'm not sure it's illegal.

No wonder my (Christian) niece has a much lower purity score, despite my 30-year head start!

[Nogbad]

Yes, but all of those 4 countries have a higher suicide rate than the mostly Christian US. And the very rich Japan has more than double the rate of the US. Also it is no secret that atheistic Russia has extensive organized crime and corruption problems as well as other ex-Soviet satellites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Also all those countries you mentioned are highly isolated from the rest of the world and aren't subject to the same multiracial and uneven income distribution pressures that say the US or France is.

And those countries you mentioned might even have a lower crime rate if everyone was theistic. Or a higher rate if everyone was atheistic for the reasons I've given in the above posts.

I am not sure what the suicide rate has to do with crime but it is the case that many northern countries do have a high suicide rate - regardless of theism/atheism. This is generally considered to be a caused by the long dark winters which apparently affect the brain chemistry. Living in a country with long dark winters I can certainly see where they are coming from :( Japan has a culture of honourable suicide and consequently one has to take this into account when considering the role of suicide in Japanese society.

It is certainly true that Russia and a number of other former Soviet Bloc countries have embraced consumerism with a passion and along with it organised crime. However, the Russian Mafia is so called because of its resemblance to the Italian one. Italy was of course a very theistic country - and to an extent still is. Consequently I am not sure there is any direct connection between theism and lack of crime - not sure what Russia's church attendance is but it would not surprise me if it was higher than Western Europe.

It seems to me that cultural norms are the most important. If children are raised to respect other people and their property then it is academic whether this is due to religious doctrine or cultural norms. A dysfunctional society will tend to have more crime because there will be competing cultural norms. Now if a country was full of people who in accordance with their theism actually put their religious teachings into practice (assuming those teachings are benign) then it might be that it would be a very safe and peaceful country. However, I don't think attendance of religious ceremonies is much of an indication. What people do is a greater indication of what they really believe.

[thatguywhojuggles]

from http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/top100.aspx?archive=1

so you think if no one believed in any religion there would be no wars or fighting? i think it would be worse. i know if i didn't fear god's judgement i would have killed many many times.

Of-course religious people do bad things sometimes. But at least their religion forces them to acknowledge within themselves the evil they do. Atheists have no such guidance. They are just like psychopaths! Cold, mechanical, soul-dead!

I think there are a lot more cases of people being agnostic or atheistic, but then getting off drugs in order to become Christians. I don't know any Christians who actually do drugs.

I honestly don't care about your rights. If it were up to me, all Atheists would be burnt at the stake and or cast into a river with weights tied to their ankles and or placed before the firing squad, etc etc etc.

Seriously, does anybody ever cry at an Atheist's funeral?

I mean, since Atheists have no value whatsoever as human
beings (they're not even human, but only inhuman animals),
since Atheists are nothing but miserable Liars, Cowards
and Murderers, after all, why would anybody in their
right mind weep over the dead rotting corpse, or bone
chips and ashes (that get mixed together with those of
others from the crematory) of a worthless dead Atheist?

and one of my favorites...
What do the other human persons here think ?

No doubt someone will object, saying something obviously ridiculous like, but atheists are persons.

But clearly this is mistaken because anybody without a well developed belief in God is obviously not a full human person.

What could be more obvious than that ?

How many full human persons do you know without a well developed belief in God. Obviously none, because if they were full human person they would have a well developed belief in God.

Now some people might object to killing atheists for there (and obviously it is there and not thier as they are not whos but whats ) organs but think of all the full human persons that would benifit from the organs and the medical research that could be done on these non-persons.

How could anybody object, they are not human persons and if you think we should not kill them then that is just because of out dated ideas and because they must really just want people to suffer. For shame on you !

So what do people think ?

Should we kill these atheist human non-persons for the benifit of fully human persons ?




Perhaps DOC has been hanging out with these people...

Oh, and btw, I want to thank whoever posted this link in another thread, it's been a incredibly fun read!

[Hokulele]

What may be a better way to view data is to break it down by states within the US. There will still be cultural variances, but not as challenging as comparing Japan to Russia to the US. Please note, the religion map is showing the percentage of people claiming "no religion". This does not account for the religions that are not some form of Christianity. For example, christians are not the majority in the state of Hawai'i (a lot of buddhists and new age-types here), but there are still a large number of people who consider themselves religious. This makes it difficult to compare the "no god" to "god" types. As noted previously, it is possible to be both religious and an atheist.

Religious affiliation by state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Religious_Belief_in_North_America.png

Crime rates by state:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/US_States_Rate_Ranking.html

Suicide rates by state:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/00049117.htm

[Nogbad]

from http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/top100.aspx?archive=1


Perhaps DOC has been hanging out with these people...

Oh, and btw, I want to thank whoever posted this link in another thread, it's been a incredibly fun read!

I am hoping it is a spoof. It doesn't bear thinking about if that was someone's genuine view.

[thatguywhojuggles]

I am hoping it is a spoof. It doesn't bear thinking about if that was someone's genuine view.

As far as I can tell, these are actual quotes collected from all over (forums, myspace pages, etc.)

[DOC]

I’m also wondering if Christian supremacy is functionally equivalent to racism. That is, that the claim of superiority some religious people make with respect to the a-religious is tantamount to the claim of superiority some people make with respect to other races.

Well, using that line of thinking, then Jesus was a racist.

[DOC]

It would seem rational only if you assume that people need the fear of punishment to feel guilty about harming others. You keep doing good things out of fear of punishment, and I'll keep doing good things because I take pleasure in the happiness of others and feel pain when others suffer.

Well that's great you feel that way, and like I said in the OP, I'm not saying there aren't ethical atheists. And concern about punishment is just "one" reason for me to do good deeds. I could talk a lot about the love factor but these threads don't feel like the right environment to do that.

[DOC]

So if the number of Americans calling themselves Christian is around 80%, and all nine Supreme Court Justices identify themselves as following a religion, and all modern U.S. presidents have been Christian, and the percentage of atheists has never risen above 12%, then why do you think murder and crime is a way of life here? Are you seriously suggesting that atheists have that much power that they can make murder and crime a way of life in a Christian nation?

James Kennedy has a book entitled "What if America was a Christian Nation, Again". That about sums it up. How many times have you heard older people say that they never locked their doors when they grew up. Saying your a Christian and being and living like one are two different things. I doubt if there is much murder and crime in Amish country. Their the ones who really walk the walk. For those in other countries look up Amish on the web.

[Ryokan]

Oh, but the Amish are so isolated and monocultural, right? If the Norwegians and Japanese gets excused that way, how come that doesn't count double for the Amish?

[Mojo]

Perhaps DOC has been hanging out with these people...


DOC is these people!

[Mojo]

Well, using that line of thinking, then Jesus was a racist.


Do you think that's an adequate argument that that "line of thinking" is flawed?

[Hokulele]

James Kennedy has a book entitled "What if America was a Christian Nation, Again". That about sums it up. How many times have you heard older people say that they never locked their doors when they grew up. Saying your a Christian and being and living like one are two different things. I doubt if there is much murder and crime in Amish country. Their the ones who really walk the walk. For those in other countries look up Amish on the web.


Yeah, those good old days in the USA. You could wander the streets freely and safely, allowed to do whatever you wished without fear of your fellow men . . .

. . . unless you were African-American, or female, or homosexual, or . . .

[Mojo]

How many times have you heard older people say that they never locked their doors when they grew up.


As they say (http://orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/piranha.htm), "people were in and out of each other's houses with each other's property all day."

[Foster Zygote]

Well that's great you feel that way, and like I said in the OP, I'm not saying there aren't ethical atheists.
But you are implying that they are a minority of atheists. Substitute any other ethnic or social group for the word "atheist" in your above statement and it all boils down to the same things: bigotry and arrogance.


And concern about punishment is just "one" reason for me to do good deeds. I could talk a lot about the love factor but these threads don't feel like the right environment to do that.
Unfortunately for you, your argument is based on the premise that theist's fear of punishment in an after-life makes them more likely to not commit crimes. By admitting that there are other factors involved in lawful, ethical behavior you are admitting that atheists can be just as well behaved as theists. I think you don't want to talk about the love factor because it destroys your argument.

[Molinaro]

That's one reason, but I would think that reason would apply more to atheists. Theists would have the added benefit of a possible afterlife reward which would not apply to atheists.

It would also seem that Theists would have more of the guilt factor that they were violating one of God's rules that a atheist would be less likely to have. It would seem rational to conclude that less guilty feelings means more crime.


If people were taught that history demonstrates acts of good and evil. And they were taught that people choose their actions based on thier own choices, instead of mythical sources of evil influences, that people wouldn't be so quick to give up on the idea of always making the right choice -- the choice to do good.
Religions, instead, have built-in excuses for personal failings. Religion teaches you to aim low and accept innadequacy and that living perfection is impossible.

[slingblade]

Is a thing wrong because it's a sin?

Or is a thing a sin because it's wrong?

[Foster Zygote]

James Kennedy has a book entitled "What if America was a Christian Nation, Again". That about sums it up.
Well if James Kennedy said it it must be true.

How many times have you heard older people say that they never locked their doors when they grew up.
Not one single time.

Saying your a Christian and being and living like one are two different things. I doubt if there is much murder and crime in Amish country. Their the ones who really walk the walk. For those in other countries look up Amish on the web.
I'm sorry DOC, but the Amish are not as pure as you would like to believe. You'll have to scroll down to the first part of the journal (http://www.in.gov/ilea/2528.htm) and then read the second part at the top.

Excerpts from the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy Master Instructor Program.
Rumspringa is a period of time between the age of sixteen and when individuals decide if they are going to join the Amish church and become baptized. It is during this time that young adults are allowed to "test the waters" of mainstream society.

Weekends in the Amish juvenile community involve socializing with other Amish youth. Much of the socializing that takes place occurs at large group gatherings or parties or while cruising around on the dirt back roads drinking, also called graveling. It is not uncommon for Amish to gather in groups of five or six juveniles and cruise the back roads drinking, smoking, and possibly doing drugs.

At first glance, rumspringa appears as a stain on Amish culture. The Amish, however, feel as though this fling with worldliness gives them the strength to come back to the Amish religion and be strong standing members. It is believed that ninety percent of the Amish youth will return to the Amish Church.

The history of this practice dates back to very early Amish culture. In the Amish culture, it is accepted and even is expected of the young Amish people.

To many Amish youth, running from police is a game which they learn form friends and family.

An example of this attitude is demonstrated in a recent situation in Millersburg, Ohio, at a nearby Amish settlement with close ties to Shipshewana. A group of more than 100 Amish juveniles at a party threw rocks at police cars, causing police to enter the party, at which time juveniles attempted to take the handgun of an Ohio Deputy. There were juveniles from several different Amish settlements throughout the United States at the party. Twelve of the Amish juveniles arrested were from LaGrange County in the Shipshewana area. While on probation one of the juveniles explained a plan by local Amish youth to ambush a Shipshewana deputy and flip over his squad car.

[-Fran-]

I'm sorry DOC, but the Amish are not as pure as you would like to believe. You'll have to scroll down to the first part of the journal (http://www.in.gov/ilea/2528.htm) and then read the second part at the top.

I saw a documentary about Rumspringa not long ago. Those kids were wild :eye-poppi

(And, yeah, DOC even here in the isolated Sweden we learn of people in other parts of the world.)

[Silentknight]

First of all, let me point out I'm not saying people who claim to be Christian or Jewish or any other theist belief don't commit crimes. And I'm not saying that there aren't some very ethical atheists out there. But in my opinion, if everyone in the world (rich, poor, and middle class) was atheistic and believed there was nothing after death, I would have to believe there would be more crime in the world.
Are you saying that the only reason theists behave morally is out of fear of punishment? This says a lot more about you than it does about atheists. You are essentially admitting that, without God or your belief in him, you would go on a crime spree, killing and stealing and taking whatever you want whenever you want. As it has been said many times already, atheists are moral because this is the only life we have, therefore the most sensible thing is to make the most of it. Morals and ethics can be easily derived from science, reason, and our own evolution as social animals. God is not necessary, and in many cases, God makes things worse by telling people to kill in his name.

Second, if you think that belief in an afterlife is a reinforcing factor for morality, then you're obviously excluding suicide bombers from the category of immoral people. Belief in an afterlife has a direct impact on the way people view the significance of this life, and on our ethical view of killing people. An atheist would believe that killing someone is snuffing them out of existence entirely, whereas a theist would say that killing someone is not the end of the line because there's life after death. Which view puts more value on human life?

Third, if you're advocating a return to the Christian moral values that the US used to be run under, then you must be overlooking the institution of slavery, the doctrine of manifest destiny, the conquest and subjugation of indigenous tribes, the treatment of women as chattel, and basically centuries worth of racism, sexism, and homophobia, much of which is still alive today.

[joobz]

Well, using that line of thinking, then Jesus was a racist.
If it fits...

[joobz]

James Kennedy has a book entitled "What if America was a Christian Nation, Again". That about sums it up. How many times have you heard older people say that they never locked their doors when they grew up. Saying your a Christian and being and living like one are two different things. I doubt if there is much murder and crime in Amish country. Their the ones who really walk the walk. For those in other countries look up Amish on the web.
Which part of our secular ways deserves punishment???

Freedom of Religion?
Freedom of speech?
Right to Bear arms?
The Right to a fair and speedy trial?
The Right to face your accusers?
The protection against wrongful search and seizures?
women's rights?
Civil Rights?
Abolition of slavery?
Social security?
medicare medicaid?
disability rights?
Welfare?
No religious test required to take office?
equal rights acts?
FHA programs?
Peace Corps?

You would like to see these things removed from american culture.

[Olowkow]

James Kennedy has a book entitled "What if America was a Christian Nation, Again". That about sums it up. How many times have you heard older people say that they never locked their doors when they grew up. Saying your a Christian and being and living like one are two different things. I doubt if there is much murder and crime in Amish country. Their the ones who really walk the walk. For those in other countries look up Amish on the web.

What? No Christians in jails? News to me.:)
Small towns, neighborhoods, etc. compared to big cities. Life styles, sitting out on the porch, saying hello to all the neighbors, so many variables have changed. The Amish handle their own problems I suspect. Less drugs in the old days. That's the big key.

If you really want to see what a theocracy is like, check out North Korea. Their leader is a dead guy too. All the citizens are in "heaven" because they get to praise their leader all day every day, and thank him for every scrap of food or shelter, knowing they are mere slime of the earth, under penalty of death. They smile a lot too.

No thanks, I'll just stick to trying to get the fundie government here to do something about our country's drug problem that makes sense....like legalizing drugs and treating the problem as a medical one rather than a criminal offense. Oh, and keeping our people out of wars...

I really don't think Christians, at least the ones I know, would be very happy after their constitutional theocracy, once established, drifted towards Islam, atheism or Shinto, by a vote of the majority due to a "loophole" discovered by zealots....oh, and they will find one! I urge anyone with such thoughts to think again about it.

Separation of religion and matters of government protects us all. It does not mean that you have to be an atheist, a Christian, or any religion, but it permits you to do so. This country has never been a "Christian" nation, except for the fact that it has been, and is, populated by a lot of people who claim to be Christian.

If one does even a modicum of research, it will be noted that crime and incarceration in the USA are overwhelmingly drug related. It is religious pressure on lawmakers that keeps it a "sin", hence "crime" in our society, instead of a psychological problem.

These truths are so self-evident, that I am embarassed to have to write them, but I am quite worried when I see the numbers of folks that attach themselves to such odd beliefs.

[Elizabeth I]

Most theists would believe atheism is an imaginary entity.

WTF?

If we were talking about Suomi, perhaps or Northern Greenland, but the rest?
I guess it would be a big suprise for DOC as well that we don't have polarbears running amuck in the streets of Copenhagen during the period of the year when the sun never rises..........

What...no polar bears frolicking under the Northern Lights? No reindeer licking the outside of the igloo? No walruses sliding down the luge run?

[Ladewig]

James Kennedy has a book entitled "What if America Were a Christian Nation, Again". That about sums it up. How many times have you heard older people say that they never locked their doors when they grew up. Saying your a Christian and being and living like one are two different things. I doubt if there is much murder and crime in Amish country. Their the ones who really walk the walk. For those in other countries look up Amish on the web.


Ahh, I see. Not all of those 80% of Americans are true Christians.

First, may I ask for an estimate of what percentage of Americans are true Christians?

Also, please let me know if Roman Catholics and Mormons are Christians?

Lastly, please indicate the year or event that marked American no longer being a Christian nation.

I am also interested in what American would need to do to follow James Kennedy's vision to become a Christian nation once more; but that might be beyond the scope of this thread. If so, feel free to start another.


. . . . . . . . .
ETA: when you get a chance, learn the difference between "your" and "you're." You've made this mistake several times in this thread.

[halofish2000]

The code of Hammurabi pre-dates the Mosaic Law by 300-400 years. Laws of living righteously among other men existed pre 10 commandments. Even Abraham kept God's laws....what laws would they be since he lived before Moses.

[-Fran-]

What...no polar bears frolicking under the Northern Lights? No reindeer licking the outside of the igloo? No walruses sliding down the luge run?

Well, we do have Northern Lights, Reindeer and Midnight sun in Sweden, but that's quite far north. I've never seen it. Berlin is closer for me to go to :) (No igloos though :p but I guess Denmark can sort of claim the igloos if they really want to ;))

I think you can say, techncally speaking, that Norway do have Polar bears and walruses, since Svalbard belongs to Norway, and you can find these impressive arctic animals there. Some day I would love to go there :)

[aggle-rithm]

James Kennedy has a book entitled "What if America was a Christian Nation, Again". That about sums it up.

So you CAN judge a book by its cover!

What a relief. I was afraid I was going to have to READ the damn thing.

[aggle-rithm]

How many times have you heard older people say that they never locked their doors when they grew up.

I think people lock their doors today more out of paranoia than rational vigilance. The mass media is constantly bombarding us with frightening stories of home invasions, child abductions, satanic rituals, etc. I'm not sure these things happen today with any more frequency than they ever had, but our awareness of them has been raised.

[aggle-rithm]

The code of Hammurabi pre-dates the Mosaic Law by 300-400 years. Laws of living righteously among other men existed pre 10 commandments. Even Abraham kept God's laws....what laws would they be since he lived before Moses.

Yeah, but before Moses a lot of heathens got away with working on Saturday. On SATURDAY!!! And they didn't even get stoned (in the biblical sense)!

[DOC]

Why couldn't the charity work be done by some other organisation? Are you suggesting that atheist people don't give to charity?

No, but if they were Christian they'd probably give more. If God says give so and so, it might hurt but you got to do it. There is Godly giving and giving that is comfortable. Bill Gates might give a billion dollars to a charity but if you give 30 dollars it might mean more to God if it is more of a sacrifice to you.

[joobz]

No, but if they were Christian they'd probably give more. completely Silly, unverified conjecture.

I could equally say:No, if they were christian they'd probably give nothing assuming the church will take care of the charity work.

[Furi]

No, but if they were Christian they'd probably give more. If God says give so and so, it might hurt but you got to do it. There is Godly giving and giving that is comfortable. Bill Gates might give a billion dollars to a charity but if you give 30 dollars it might mean more to God if it is more of a sacrifice to you.

Would they really give more, I mean these are the same people that are only not committing crimes because ceiling cat said so?

Also there is no evidence that this is correct/incorrect, after all isn't it better that they suffer first so that they can know the everlasting love and joy of having had a miserable/painful physical existance.

[aggle-rithm]

No, but if they were Christian they'd probably give more. If God says give so and so, it might hurt but you got to do it.

And yet many don't. How strange!

[Ryan O'Dine]

I’m also wondering if Christian supremacy is functionally equivalent to racism. That is, that the claim of superiority some religious people make with respect to the a-religious is tantamount to the claim of superiority some people make with respect to other races.Well, using that line of thinking, then Jesus was a racist.


I'm not sure how to read your response. Are you conceding that you're a Christian supremacist? And are you claiming that Jesus was one, too?

Just so we're on the same page, are you aware that Jesus lived and died a Jew, and would hardly recognize today's Evangelical-style Christians (particularly the ones who consider the Jews spiritually inferior, and would condemn them to Hell)?

[Ryokan]

I think you can say, techncally speaking, that Norway do have Polar bears and walruses, since Svalbard belongs to Norway, and you can find these impressive arctic animals there. Some day I would love to go there :)

Bouvet Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouvet_island) is also part of the kingdom, so we have penguins as well! :D

ETA: And aliens and predators.

[DOC]

How do you know what constitutes a crime now would be a crime in an atheist-run world? Let us assume that atheists are immoral, moreso than theists. I think it would be safe to assume our evil atheist laws would reflect our evil atheist morals, or lack thereof. Therefore, we may NOT commit more crimes because our laws reflect what ATHEISTS view as right and wrong, not THEISTS.

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

[DOC]

So you CAN judge a book by its cover!

What a relief. I was afraid I was going to have to READ the damn thing.

You should read this book "What if Jesus had never been born" by Kennedy, its pretty good.

[ponderingturtle]

As noted previously, it is possible to be both religious and an atheist.


The problem is that if you make this claim it is not possible to ever definitively say what is and what is not a religion. And you get possibilities like scientific organizations classed as religions.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

Fortunately, what you are willing to bet is as irrelevant as the ramblings of any other bigot.

[Furi]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

Don't beat around the bush the DOC for some strange reason you sound as though you believe that atheists are evil, I never knew you felt that way :p.

Damn all us godless Buddhists and Taoists and us ebul Europeans.

You are right about one thing though, we would be living in a totally different society, probably one with a lot more rationality, higher education standards and rates of development, less bigotry and unfounded suspicion or fear of unkown people or ideals.

I for one am quite glad that sociopathic nut jobs that believe this are held in check by their notion of God, if not we would have to medicate them and lock them up, so therefore crime would increase because all ebul Jesusians that think like you would use it as an excuse to be a twat.

:popcorn1

[Ladewig]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

Are you really so dense as to believe that non-religious people cannot distinguish between actions that hurt unwilling people and actions that do not hurt unwilling people? Please tell me that you typed the post with the intention of upsetting the regular posters and you do not actually believe that a non-religious society would allow children to be raped.

[calebprime]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

Wow, man, far out. Sounds like a groovy scene 'til the pigs take over. Bummer.

And free concerts. There'd be free concerts without permits.

[Ladewig]

James Kennedy has a book entitled "What if America was a Christian Nation, Again". That about sums it up.

So was America considered a Christian nation in 1850? You know, back when slavery was legal.

Was America a Christian nation in 1950, when institutionalized racism was embedded in the law?

[Hokulele]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal.


You are confusing atheists with Catholic priests. Oh wait, you said consulting, not unconsenting. Never mind, carry on.

[joobz]

Let's not pretend here.

These are the things DOC wants to do, but doesn't because god won't let him...
You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

I thank god for protecting us from the inherent evil within DOC.

[Hokulele]

Let's not pretend here.

If DOC didn't believe in god, these are the things he'd want to do:


Close, but this seems to be the list of the things DOC does want to do. He may only be kept in check out of fear rather than an innate sense of morality.

I am not sure why gay marriage is in this list though, it takes a cold person to deny others happiness due to an outdated sense of bigotry.

[Foster Zygote]

No, but if they were Christian they'd probably give more.

You never fail to amaze me, DOC.

[Irony]

So was America considered a Christian nation in 1850? You know, back when slavery was legal.

Was America a Christian nation in 1950, when institutionalized racism was embedded in the law?

Yes. In fact, if you talk to enough evangelicals you'll find that the end of Christian America(tm) coincides exactly with the Civil Rights Movement.

[Furi]

Is there some aspect of insanity christianity that condones this sort of behaviour? this is probably why my version of what is socially acceptable or moral is at odds with DOC's xian viewpoint

(PWEI's "preaching to the perverted" has earwormed and is now munching happily through my brain)

[Foster Zygote]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

You've got a point there. If everyone were black I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

You've got a point there. If everyone were Mexican I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

You've got a point there. If everyone were Jewish I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

You've got a point there. If everyone were Democrats I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

You've got a point there. If everyone were race mixers I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.
Wow, it works for anyone that an arrogant bigot would ever care to dehumanize.

[Foster Zygote]

Close, but this seems to be the list of the things DOC does want to do. He may only be kept in check out of fear rather than an innate sense of morality.

I am not sure why gay marriage is in this list though, it takes a cold person to deny others happiness due to an outdated sense of bigotry.

Yes. Yes it does. Don't you love how people who couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag are convinced that actions conducted between consenting adults are one and that same with the act of victimizing children?

[dannagain]

Back to the OP. (It's often difficult to follow DOC's motorised goalposts)

If Everyone in the world was atheistic would there be more or less crime

Very simple and easy answer.

There would definitely be less crime.

There would be no religious crimes.

.

lol.

What's the best way to lower the crime rate?

Make less things illegal.

[Nogbad]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

I'm assuming that the above is a bit of irony given that much of the above has been allowed by one theist group or another. Much of what you are describing as "good" are not traditional religious values but those of a modern secular state that protects the rights of children, women and minorities. To achieve these have often involved protracted battles sometimes with the support of theists (particularly liberal ones) and sometimes without their support. Attitudes towards things like nudity are cultural not religious - there are many countries where levels are theism are high, like Brazil, but where nudity is not a big issue. Equally one can look at the Taliban who choke if a fingernail is showing.

[Flo]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.


All this is way beyond stupid, and you've got a very dirty mind if you really believe the only reason mankind has not massively indulged in child abuse, drugs, incest and murder is because of religion's promise of retribution in the afterlife.

BTW, the main justifications for polygamy have always been religious, as have been the right of a father to eliminate handicapped and mentally ill children, or refusing education to a portion of the population. Changes in those regards have mostly been due to the enlightened people who have fought the undue influence of religion in the rulings of society.

I suggest that, instead of wild speculations out of your warped view of mankind, societies, and history, you educate yourself ...

[lupus_in_fabula]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

Now you’re just really sad… if that’s what’s going on in your head, then I think it is indeed better you hold on tightly to you’re delusion and fear of imaginary celestial retribution.

[Ryokan]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

Ah, yes, exactly like in Scandinavia and Japan.

http://www.sott.net.nyud.net/image/image/5633/norway_comic.jpg

[joobz]

Not to be a broken record, but I'm still trying to figure out which of our "secular ways of life" in america is so evil.

is it:
Freedom of Religion?
Freedom of speech?
Right to Bear arms?
The Right to a fair and speedy trial?
The Right to face your accusers?
The protection against wrongful search and seizures?
women's rights?
Civil Rights?
Abolition of slavery?
Social security?
medicare medicaid?
disability rights?
Welfare?
No religious test required to take office?
equal rights acts?
FHA programs?
Peace Corps?

[joobz]

Ah, yes, exactly like in Scandinavia and Japan.

http://www.sott.net.nyud.net/image/image/5633/norway_comic.jpg
Well, it partly explains Japanese television...:p

[Ryokan]

The problem is that if you make this claim it is not possible to ever definitively say what is and what is not a religion. And you get possibilities like scientific organizations classed as religions.

Not at all. A lot of religions are atheistic, like Buddhism and Taoism.

Or are you saying they're not religions?

[Tanstaafl]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.


Okay DOC, now that you're dumped this steaming pile of bigotry on us, perhaps you could tell me...


Where in the bible does it prohibit sex with children, marriage to children, marriage to multiple partners?

Where in the bible does it say public sex is not allowed?

Where in the bible does it say public nudity is not allowed?

Where in the bible does it say abortion is not allowed?

Where does it say leaders should not be ruthless dictators? Where does the bible endorse democracy?

Where does it say school should be mandatory?

Where does the bible require care of handicapped and mentally ill children? Or adults?

I'm sure you can supply specific chapter and verse to illustrate where the bible directly confronts these issues, since clearly the world would run amok without biblical guidance.

[joobz]

Well, using that line of thinking, then Jesus was a racist.
DOC, I feel like I need to explain something.
This argument doesn't really help you in any way.

For it's impact to be felt, people would have to agree that Jesus was perfect. Only then would the concept of jesus being racist (or possess bigotry equivilent to racism as what was mentioned in the post you were replying to) be ludicrous.

In order for us to think Jesus was perfect is to think he was actually the son of god. Since most people you are debating against don't believe in god, they would not have any reason to believe that jesus is the son of it.


Therefore, your statement of

"Well, using that line of thinking, then Jesus was a racist."
Has the same weight of
"Well, using that line of thinking, then Jefferson was a racist."
"Well, using that line of thinking, then Gahndi was a racist."

It may still have validity, but it isn't nearly as shocking a statement you'd like to think it is.

[ponderingturtle]

Not at all. A lot of religions are atheistic, like Buddhism and Taoism.

Or are you saying they're not religions?

This is not really the thread for this, but the point is how do you define religion so that they are religions, and science isn't.

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consenting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

Don't beat around the bush the DOC for some strange reason you sound as though you believe that atheists are evil, I never knew you felt that way.

Which one of the things I mentioned that I believe would be legalized if everyone was an atheist do you consider evil?

And I would encourage any of the regulars to answer that also.

[joobz]

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consenting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.



Which one of the things I mentioned that I believe would be legalized if everyone was an atheist do you consider evil?

And I would encourage any of the regulars to answer that also.
Which of the following secular american ways do you find evil?

Freedom of Religion?
Freedom of speech?
Right to Bear arms?
The Right to a fair and speedy trial?
The Right to face your accusers?
The protection against wrongful search and seizures?
women's rights?
Civil Rights?
Abolition of slavery?
Social security?
medicare medicaid?
disability rights?
Welfare?
No religious test required to take office?
equal rights acts?
FHA programs?
Peace Corps?

[DOC]

Posted by DOC

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consenting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

Now you’re just really sad… if that’s what’s going on in your head, then I think it is indeed better you hold on tightly to you’re delusion and fear of imaginary celestial retribution.

Which one of the above things I mentioned do you believe is sad and would not be legalized in a all atheist society.

[Ladewig]

Posted by DOC

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consenting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.



Which one of the above things I mentioned do you believe is sad and would not be legalized in a all atheist society.


I gave my answer to that question back in post #163.


I know you are backed up with questions and have a limited time to respond, but please don't forget my questions in post #146.

[DOC]

Which of the following secular american ways do you find evil?

Freedom of Religion?
Freedom of speech?
Right to Bear arms?
The Right to a fair and speedy trial?
The Right to face your accusers?
The protection against wrongful search and seizures?
women's rights?
Civil Rights?
Abolition of slavery?
Social security?
medicare medicaid?
disability rights?
Welfare?
No religious test required to take office?
equal rights acts?
FHA programs?
Peace Corps?

None of those are secular because God would approve of all of them, even free speech and freedom of religion because God gives free will.

[JoeEllison]

So, DOC, how long has Jesus suppressed your pedophilia?

[JoeEllison]

None of those are secular because God would approve of all of them, even free speech and freedom of religion because God gives free will.
So, now you're even lying about the Bible... nice trick! Either that, or you reject the 10 Commandments?

[dirtywick]

DOC, that's too much of a leap to be taken seriously and I don't think any questions based off such a ridiculous premise deserve answers.

If there are positive results of religion in terms of how it effects crime, such as rehabilitation programs or charity to the homeless that can be demonstrated through statistics, that'd be a better place to start than with things you're making up as you go.

[DOC]

I gave my answer to that question back in post #163.

Yes, but you weren't specific. Which "specific" ones do you feel would not be legalized if everyone was an atheist.

[Silentknight]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.
What this translates into is basically this:
You've got a point there. If everyone were exactly like me but didn't have GAWD keeping them in check I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.
Way to equate same sex marriage with child rape or the murder of handicapped children. Never mind that you offered no evidence or reasoning whatsoever for your slippery slope fallacy.

Also, way to ignore the fact that some of the most brutal, violent, and barbaric societies in recent history have been theocracies run by religious fanatics. Look at Iran or Saudi Arabia. Look at Serbia under Milosevic, or Afghanistan under the Taliban. (I would point out the classic example of a 20th century regime that murdered millions of people in the name of God, but I don't feel like getting into Godwin's Law territory today.)

[DOC]

DOC, that's too much of a leap to be taken seriously and I don't think any questions based off such a ridiculous premise deserve answers.

Why not, isn't that the goal of most atheists- to eradicate religion from society. And if that is not the goal than atheists must believe that religion is good for society. But I don't think that is the case or there wouldn't be the constant attacking and mocking of religion in the threads.

[JoeEllison]

DOC, that's too much of a leap to be taken seriously and I don't think any questions based off such a ridiculous premise deserve answers.

If there are positive results of religion in terms of how it effects crime, such as rehabilitation programs or charity to the homeless that can be demonstrated through statistics, that'd be a better place to start than with things you're making up as you go.
Is he making it up? Or is it what he feels in his heart? Which sort of monster is he dying to be, if only Jesus didn't hold him back?

[Tanstaafl]

Why not, isn't that the goal of most atheists- to eradicate religion from society. And if that is not the goal than atheists must believe that religion is good for society. But I don't think that is the case or there wouldn't be the constant attacking and mocking of religion in the threads.


No, the goal of most atheists is to be free of the yoke of other people's superstitions.

[joobz]

None of those are secular because God would approve of all of them, even free speech and freedom of religion because God gives free will.

That's a really dumb answer. If there is a punishment associated with an action, that action isn't permitted and you are therefore not FREE to make it. By your logic, we are free to commit murder, as long as we are willing to go to jail for it. dumb, dumb dumb.

That list I gave is a direct result of our secularized government. They happend in spite of religion, not becuase of.

BASED UPON THE BIBLE:
God doesn't permit freedom of religion, he clearly states that no god before him. That's not freedom of religion.

God doesn't permit freedom of speech, becuase he forbids taking his name in vein.

god does permit guns and killing in his name.

God permits slavery.

god doesn't believe in equal rights for women

[JoeEllison]

That's a really dumb answer. If there is a punishment associated with an action, that action isn't permitted and you are therefore not FREE to make it. By your logic, we are free to commit murder, as long as we are willing to go to jail for it. dumb, dumb dumb.

That list I gave is a direct result of our secularized government. They happend in spite of religion, not becuase of.

BASED UPON THE BIBLE:
God doesn't permit freedom of religion, he clearly states that no god before him. That's not freedom of religion.

God doesn't permit freedom of speech, becuase he forbids taking his name in vein.

god does permit guns and killing in his name.

God permits slavery.

god doesn't believe in equal rights for women
God, IOW, hates the American Constitution.

[joobz]

Why not, isn't that the goal of most atheists- to eradicate religion from society.
Many atheists do think that as a goal. I very much doubt most. But, i haven't done any polls.

And if that is not the goal than atheists must believe that religion is good for society. Stupid statement. False dichotomy.
You can also subscribe to the live and let live viewpoint.


But I don't think that is the case or there wouldn't be the constant attacking and mocking of religion in the threads.
Confirmation bias.

[DOC]

What this translates into is basically this:

Way to equate same sex marriage with child rape or the murder of handicapped children. Never mind that you offered no evidence or reasoning whatsoever for your slippery slope fallacy

Well I never used the word rape, I said consenting children. And maybe you haven't heard of this atheistic "Princeton" professor who examines ethics from a atheistic point of view. He is for the right to kill handicapped newborns.

From Wikis article on Princeton Professor "Peter Singer"

American economist Steve Forbes ceased his donations to Princeton University in 1999 because of Singer's appointment to an honorable position.[19] Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal wrote to organizers of a Swedish book fair to which Singer was invited that "A professor of morals ... who justifies the right to kill handicapped newborns... is in my opinion unacceptable for representation at your level."[20] Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, the leading organization for blind people in the United States, strongly criticized Singer's appointment to the Princeton Faculty in a banquet speech at the organization's national convention in July 2001, claiming that Singer's support for euthanizing disabled babies could lead to disabled older children and adults being valued less as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer

[Hokulele]

Well I never used the word rape, I said consenting children.


What do the words "informed consent" mean to you?

[joobz]

God, IOW, hates the American Constitution.
The god of the bible certainly would.

It's no mistake that many of the founding fathers were diests and not christian.


I will give props to the fact that jesus would completely agree with social welfare and universal health care, which are both very liberal secular virtues.

The funny part is, and the irony that DOC seems to miss, is that if jesus were alive today, he wouldn't be a democrat or republican, He'd be communist.

[Tanstaafl]

Well I never used the word rape, I said consenting children. And maybe you haven't heard of this atheistic "Princeton" professor who examines ethics from a atheistic point of view. He is for killing of handicapped newborns.


That's just another argument from authority, from the flip side. You really can't help yourself can you?

He is one atheist. Just one. He speaks for himself. There is no reason to believe, none whatsoever, that his opinions would become law in an atheistic society.

[joobz]

Well I never used the word rape, I said consenting children. And maybe you haven't heard of this atheistic "Princeton" professor who examines ethics from a atheistic point of view. He is for killing of handicapped newborns.
And perhaps you've never heard of the christian fundamentalist, Fred Phelps, who takes a rather hard line view of the bible. He's for killing.....everybody

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps.

[joobz]

That's just another argument from authority, from the flip side. You really can't help yourself can you?

He is one atheist. Just one. He speaks for himself. There is no reason to believe, none whatsoever, that his opinions would become law in an atheistic society.
DOC's understanding of the world:

One good christian proves christianity is good.
One bad christian is an outlier/no a true christian.

One bad atheist proves atheism is bad.
One good atheist is an outlier/must be bad in some other way...somehow...

[halofish2000]

DOC, frankly I am disturbed. Just because someone may not believe in God, yours or anyone elses, does not mean they wish to harm others. Because they believe in God does not mean they will NOT commit heinous crimes. We have plenty examples through history to prove it. I just read the Code of Hammurabi again. I would not consider it to be a set of Christian based laws in the sense that we have the ten commandments. But they did have laws against incest, murder, theft, loss of property, slander,.....
Also, you state God wants us to give till it hurts...I don't understand. Enlighten us please.
By chance, are you a preacher?

[DOC]

And maybe you haven't heard of this atheistic "Princeton" professor who examines ethics from a atheistic point of view. He is for the right to kill handicapped newborns.

From Wikis article on Princeton Professor "Peter Singer"

American economist Steve Forbes ceased his donations to Princeton University in 1999 because of Singer's appointment to an honorable position.[19] Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal wrote to organizers of a Swedish book fair to which Singer was invited that "A professor of morals ... who justifies the right to kill handicapped newborns... is in my opinion unacceptable for representation at your level."[20] Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, the leading organization for blind people in the United States, strongly criticized Singer's appointment to the Princeton Faculty in a banquet speech at the organization's national convention in July 2001, claiming that Singer's support for euthanizing disabled babies could lead to disabled older children and adults being valued less as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer





He {Peter Singer} is one atheist. Just one. He speaks for himself. There is no reason to believe, none whatsoever, that his opinions would become law in an atheistic society.

I would strongly disagree when you have New Yorker magazine calling him "the most influential philospher alive".

http://www.worldmag.com/articles/9987

And Time magazine calling him one of the 100 Most Influential People in the World in 2005.

www.project-syndicate.org/series/31/description

[halofish2000]

Just a generation ago we had a "christian" who, not only proposed, but also terminated those with physical defects.

[Elizabeth I]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

This is a parody, right? Doc has been posting all this time, just yanking chains and seeing how high he can ratchet up the ridiculousness before people get it.

Because NOBODY is this stupid.

[Mobyseven]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

Runs off to FSTDT.com and hopes he is the first to submit...

[Ladewig]

And Time magazine calling him one of the 100 Most Influential People in the World in 2005.


That list also includes Kim Jong Il, but no rational person would say, "If Time magazine listed Kim Jong Il as one of the 100 most influential people in 2005, then the majority of North Koreans support him and his views."

Similarly, no rational person would say, "If Time magazine listed Peter Singer (a noted and self-professed atheist) as one of the 100 most influential people in 2005, then the majority of atheists support him and his views"

[JoeEllison]

This is a parody, right? Doc has been posting all this time, just yanking chains and seeing how high he can ratchet up the ridiculousness before people get it.

Because NOBODY is this stupid.

I would blame him on the writer's strike, but he's been around since before that.

[Silentknight]

Runs off to FSTDT.com and hopes he is the first to submit...

Damnit, now why didn't I think of that? :mad:

And why did I waste a minute trying to reason with an individual who says things like that? Oh well, at least I got to make fun of him in the process.

[Ryokan]

I'm actually quite sad that people will believe such things about me just because of my lack of belief in any gods.

[-Fran-]

I'm actually quite sad that people will believe such things about me just because of my lack of belief in any gods.

I'm more pissed off actually :mad:

BTW, it's not fair that you get penguins, too!! :( ;)

[Mobyseven]

Damnit, now why didn't I think of that? :mad:

And why did I waste a minute trying to reason with an individual who says things like that? Oh well, at least I got to make fun of him in the process.

:D

i winz

[skeptifem]

Well I never used the word rape, I said consenting children.


children arent allowed to consent.

[lupus_in_fabula]

Posted by DOC

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consenting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.



Which one of the above things I mentioned do you believe is sad and would not be legalized in a all atheist society.

I don’t think being freed from bronze-aged superstition will make the society run berserk; in fact I think the world could be a better place without bible bangers abusing their children with ideas about human sacrifice (scapegoating), hell or any such nonsense, nor would there be religious labelling dividing people in different superstitious camps. Don’t you think it’s bizarre that people can generate hate for each other strictly because of different superstitious beliefs imposed on them?

First of a all, homosexual marriages are not immoral, in fact you’re a bigot if you pretend to know the will of your imaginary celestial being and impose also that second illusion as some kind of truth on people you dislike (it is after all your own ideas you’re actually projecting, not the celestial being’s). Second, polygamy is allowed in some religious cultures. Third, some religious denominations already take their children away from public schooling in order to indoctrinate them with their own imaginary rubbish. Fourth, when you live in a tight religious community and almost everyone seems to be your cousin, start worrying. Etc., etc.

Your list is just speculative nonsense; in fact, secular ideas are preventing children from becoming dumbed-down and taught nonsense (like creationism in science classes). I would say some of what most of us consider immoral behaviour could become possible through some weird religious justification, if such indecency could have slipped in any “holy” text – that’s the downside of pretending to have morality derived from fictive narratives. I’ve already named one such immorality (scaring children with eternal punishment). What kind of sickness it that, really? Religious fundamentalist can say and do the weirdest things; you’re already a good example of that.

This is already the fourth time I ask you the following: 1) Name a moral act or statement by a theist that could not have been done by a non-theist. (2) Name a wicked action that could only have been derived directly from theistic justification.

[joobz]

I don’t think being freed from bronze-aged superstition will make the society run berserk; in fact I think the world could be a better place without bible bangers abusing their children with ideas about human sacrifice (scapegoating), hell or any such nonsense, nor would there be religious labelling dividing people in different superstitious camps. Don’t you think it’s bizarre that people can generate hate for each other strictly because of different superstitious beliefs imposed on them?

First of a all, homosexual marriages are not immoral, in fact you’re a bigot if you pretend to know the will of your imaginary celestial being and impose also that second illusion as some kind of truth on people you dislike (it is after all your own ideas you’re actually projecting, not the celestial being’s). Second, polygamy is allowed in some religious cultures. Third, some religious denominations already take their children away from public schooling in order to indoctrinate them with their own imaginary rubbish. Fourth, when you live in a tight religious community and almost everyone seems to be your cousin, start worrying. Etc., etc.

Your list is just speculative nonsense; in fact, secular ideas are preventing children from becoming dumbed-down and taught nonsense (like creationism in science classes). I would say some of what most of us consider immoral behaviour could become possible through some weird religious justification, if such indecency could have slipped in any “holy” text – that’s the downside of pretending to have morality derived from fictive narratives. I’ve already named one such immorality (scaring children with eternal punishment). What kind of sickness it that, really? Religious fundamentalist can say and do the weirdest things; you’re already a good example of that.

This is already the fourth time I ask you the following: 1) Name a moral act or statement by a theist that could not have been done by a non-theist. (2) Name a wicked action that could only have been derived directly from theistic justification.
DOC will never read your well written post. He doesn't like a lot of words.

[Sunstealer]

But in my opinion, if everyone in the world (rich, poor, and middle class) thought like DOC and believed there was something after death, I would have to believe there would be more crime in the world.Fixed after seeing this..

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually...I couldn't believe it. It has to be a wind up. If it's not then I actually feel sorry for DOC or anyone who thinks like this.

It equates the irreligious or atheist with a total breakdown of society with no morals or laws. It's jaw dropping, but one thing I think I can see is that DOC lives amongst people or has been brought up by people who simply live in fear, not only of hell, but also anything that is outside of their own tiny realm.

DOC, get yourself a passport, book an airline ticket to somewhere outside of the US and explore the world and it's people. It's not anywhere near as terrifying or dangerous as you have been lead to believe. Sweden would be a good start. ;)

[-Fran-]

DOC, get yourself a passport, book an airline ticket to somewhere outside of the US and explore the world and it's people. It's not anywhere near as terrifying or dangerous as you have been lead to believe. Sweden would be a good start. ;)

No no no, for goodness sake, what have we swedes done to deserve that? :( :p

[Mojo]

Ah, yes, exactly like in Scandinavia and Japan.

http://www.sott.net.nyud.net/image/image/5633/norway_comic.jpg


They do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%2C_Norway).

[slingblade]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

You poor, scared thing. Why, you're just terrified, aren't you? That must be awfully hard to live with.

[Flo]

I'm actually quite sad that people will believe such things about me just because of my lack of belief in any gods.


That kind of people aren't so much believing things about atheists as projecting their fantasies on them ... when your mind is full of dirt, you tend to see everything as dirty ;)

[UnrepentantSinner]

To the OP - about the same.

[SezMe]

You've got a point there...
I don't think I've seen a post quoted and responded to more in any given thread than this one. It is truly mond-boggling.

I scribbled down some notes as I read the post in preparation for my reply. But I see that many others have already responded to my points - probably more persuasively than I could have.

So I am left only with a few questions: DOC, have you learned anything from the responses to your post? If so, what? If not, why not? Do you really think the thoughtful posters here - every one of them - has nothing to contribute?

[The_Fire]

No no no, for goodness sake, what have we swedes done to deserve that? :( :p

You exist? :p:D

Speaking of: We've still got greenland....That means we got both Santa, reindeer, polarbears AND igloos! :D

Off cause we also got sheep......(Faroe Islands are still danish as well).......

[Jaggy Bunnet]

(Faroe Islands are still danish as well).......

They can't be, they have their own football team.

[UnrepentantSinner]

I would blame him on the writer's strike, but he's been around since before that.

:D Mmmm. Topical!

[calebprime]

I would strongly disagree when you have New Yorker magazine calling him "the most influential philospher alive".

http://www.worldmag.com/articles/9987

And Time magazine calling him one of the 100 Most Influential People in the World in 2005.

www.project-syndicate.org/series/31/description


His influence is probably in support of PETA and animal rights, not for the wonderful evil hedonistic amoral carnival you suggest.


eta: upon a quick Google, even what I said was wrong:

“Singer is a powerful advocate for the better treatment of animals, and is certainly an important influence on the recent changes in the law that have given more emphasis to animal welfare. But he is not a supporter of animal rights”. Do Animals Have Rights? by Alison Hills (2005: 23-4):

distinction between better treatment and animal rights...

[-Fran-]

You exist? :p:D

Hey, be nice, I am one of the least annoying swedes, I've only made an ass of myself in Denmark 2 or 3 times at the most ;)

Though, I'm sure DOC is close enough in his mindset to Fred Phelps that he indeed thinks that Sweden deserves such horror just for existing :D


Speaking of: We've still got greenland....That means we got both Santa, reindeer, polarbears AND igloos! :D

Off cause we also got sheep......(Faroe Islands are still danish as well).......

Yeah, yeah, quit bragging ;) Though I think the Finns in Rovaniemi will fight you for the Santa privilege :p

[Alice Shortcake]

DOC, you may find this hard to believe but many people - if not the majority of people - in Britain, Scandinavia and most of Western Europe find the USA's attitude to religion utterly bizarre.

[Safe-Keeper]

..I couldn't believe it. It has to be a wind up. If it's not then I actually feel sorry for DOC or anyone who thinks like this.

It equates the irreligious or atheist with a total breakdown of society with no morals or laws. It's jaw dropping, but one thing I think I can see is that DOC lives amongst people or has been brought up by people who simply live in fear, not only of hell, but also anything that is outside of their own tiny realm.
My sentiments exactly. He's no different from a racist blaming today's ills on the fall of apartheid.

Yesterday: God forbid I'd ever meet a ni***r. They are unevolved and less intelligent than us whites. Look at those uncivilized dirty n****r countries down in Africa! If we let them into our schools and workplaces, or, Heaven forbid, our voting system and government, it'd be the end of society as we know it!
Today: I haven't met an atheist in my life, but I know that they're amoral and vile, and they're destroying our society! Look at how poorly the atheist havens of North Korea and China are doing! If we let them into our schools and workplaces, or worse, our government, it'd be the end of society as we know it!

Same feces, different wrapping:rolleyes:.

Oh, and here is a list of altruism displayed by animals, which definitely are atheistic:
Dogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogs) often adopt orphaned cats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cats), squirrels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squirrels), ducks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducks) and even tigers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigers).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals#_note-0)
Bonobos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo) have been observed aiding injured or handicapped bonobos.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals#_note-1)
According to the research of Gerald Wilkinson, vampire bats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_bat) have a "buddy system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_system)" in which a bat who has had a successful night of feeding will regurgitate blood for its less fortunate companion.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals#_note-2)References:


^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals#_ref-0) http://dogsinthenews.com/stories/060929a.php
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals#_ref-1) http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2005/Oct/hour2_100705.html
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals#_ref-2) de Waal, Frans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_de_Waal) (1996). Good Natured. Harvard University Press (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University_Press), 20–21. ISBN 0-674-35660-8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Booksources&isbn=0674356608).Thanks, Wiki.

[Furi]

DOC, you may find this hard to believe but many people - if not the majority of people - in Britain, Scandinavia and most of Western Europe find the USA's attitude to religion utterly bizarre.

I wouldn't even class it as sane as Utterly Bizarre, belief in the Lunar Landing Hoax or Reptillian Entities ruling the world is utterly bizarrre but US Fundies are worse than that.

Bat Guano Alien is closer to how I see them, in fact I almost find Islamic Fundies more rational, or at least more consistant.

[Ryan O'Dine]

The stuff that creates a sense of tribal loyalty and patriotism is paranoia. Paranoia is far from being an occasional pathology, but a normal condition. We direct hate and suspicion to strangers and those who are unlike us. The paranoid myth of “the threat” involves the dualistic Us versus Them, Good versus Evil, we are good, they are bad. This paranoid myth that unites the group and defines it, also permits the killing of the immoral, nonhuman members of the “them,” as well as the holy act of dying while killing the “them” (Keen, 1986).

Humans normally don’t kill other humans. The humans that we intend to kill, eliminate or commit genocide against must be dehumanized. “The enemy” must be reduced to ugly creatures that are less than animals with ideas that must be destroyed.
http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/politics/kosovo/papers/propagandapro.html
In reference to the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. (My bold)

"From the rostrum of the Reichstag, I prophesied to Jewry that, in the event of war’s proving inevitable, the Jew would disappear from Europe. That race of criminals has on its conscience the two million dead of the First World War, and now already hundreds and thousands more. Let nobody tell me that all the same we can’t park them in the marshy parts of Russia! Who’s worrying about our troops? It’s not a bad idea, by the way, that public rumor attributes to us a plan to exterminate the Jews. Terror is a salutary thing." (quoted in John Toland, Adolf Hitler. London: Book Club Associates, 1977, p.702-3)
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/statements.htm
My bold.

"At the 1985 Conservative Political Action Conference, Cameron announced to the attendees, 'Unless we get medically lucky, in three or four years, one of the options discussed will be the extermination of homosexuals.' According to an interview with former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, Cameron was recommending the extermination option as early as 1983." - Mark E. Pietrzyk, News-Telegraph, March 10, 1995.
Dr. Paul Cameron ( http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/hatespeech/hate.html)

When von dem Bach-Zelewski, who testified before the International Military Tribunal, (1) was asked how the defendant Ohlendorf could admit the murder of 90,000 people, he replied -

"I am of the opinion that when, for years, for decades, the doctrine is preached that the Slav race is an inferior race, and Jews not even human, then such an outcome is inevitable."
http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/mt/ndsir.html

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition.
...snip...
The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so. It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator.
The Cornerstone Speech by Vice President Alexander H. Stephens
http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/corner.html

[The_Fire]

They can't be, they have their own football team.

They also have their own language, flag and provencial governement. So does Greenland. They are also both working on their independance. However they are also still represented in danish parliament, a part of the danish Reichs community AND are still getting money from Denmark to make their echonomy go round. They are Danish. And will continue to be so while there's something in it for them.

And the Faroe Islands have an impressive amount of debt to mainland Denmark which means that right now they need to stay on our good side.

And Fran, that thing about Santa? He lives on Greenland. I saw so myself in one of the Advents calendars on Television (Nissebanden på Grønland). :P

[-Fran-]

And Fran, that thing about Santa? He lives on Greenland. I saw so myself in one of the Advents calendars on Television (Nissebanden på Grønland). :P

Damn!! How can I ever contradict such overwhelming evidence :D

[Fitter]

Damn!! How can I ever contradict such overwhelming evidence :D
With this. (http://www.canadapost.ca/business/corporate/about/newsroom/pr/archive-e.asp?prid=962)

SANTA CLAUS
NORTH POLE
H0H 0H0
CANADA

[-Fran-]

With this. (http://www.canadapost.ca/business/corporate/about/newsroom/pr/archive-e.asp?prid=962)

SANTA CLAUS
NORTH POLE
H0H 0H0
CANADA

:D

There are more contestants though :)

http://www.santaclausvillage.info/eng/main.htm

And

http://www.thelocal.se/9456/20071219/

[Traveler Steve]

You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consulting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

I rarely break my "ghosting" and actually post, but this forced it out me. This is so evil as to take my breath away. I am very, very glad I do not know anyone in my life such as "DOC".

[Mister Agenda]

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consenting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

Which one of the things I mentioned that I believe would be legalized if everyone was an atheist do you consider evil?

And I would encourage any of the regulars to answer that also.

Hmm. Even I think that 'godless communism' is a pretty evil system, but they didn't make adult-child sex, polygamy, homosexual marriage, or public sex legal. They have mandatory school attendance, and abortions were illegal in Soviet Russia (not so much in the PRC). You're fine with the ethics of Soviet Russia, apparently. Communists didn't go the route you're afraid of, but you think humanists would? Bizarre. It is hard to find an ethical system that is more concerned with the protection of young children from sexual abuse and exploitation than humanism.

Of course you ended your despicable, nasty accusation with 'eventually', so no matter how long an atheist-only society lasted you can say it will still suffer moral decay 'eventually'. Way to hedge your bet.

[Mister Agenda]

Why not, isn't that the goal of most atheists- to eradicate religion from society. And if that is not the goal than atheists must believe that religion is good for society. But I don't think that is the case or there wouldn't be the constant attacking and mocking of religion in the threads.

Nope and nope. I don't even personally know any atheists who want to eradicate religion, and I have a meetup group and everything! :) The only way to eradicate religion is by force, and none of us believe you should use force to change people's beliefs. I don't think religion is good for society in general, but particular religous communities can be, through charity, despite their superstitions. Too bad that churces who care more about the poor, needy, and handicapped than their next fellowship dinner are the exception rather than the rule. Sadly, those 'points of light' are more than offset by greedy televangelists, fake healers, megachurches that only exist to grow, and Christianist who try to undermine the religous freedom of others.

Nontheist religions are a different story, but I have a feeling you didn't have them in mind.

So: we don't believe in eradicating religion because killing and terrorizing people is bad, which doesn't imply that we think religion is good for society. It only implies that we don't think it is as bad as killing and terrorizing people.

[fuelair]

I rarely break my "ghosting" and actually post, but this forced it out me. This is so evil as to take my breath away. I am very, very glad I do not know anyone in my life such as "DOC".

Not to GODwin anything, but a song went tumbling through my head reading that: (To be sung by Gott-Leibing Trupers in rank and full pack):
Doc-land Doc-land over everything; Doc-land, Doc-land alwa-ay's right!
Always hating, Master (race)bai-aiting, Thin-iceskating, Not real nice...........
Quote misusing, fact abu-using (well, I'm sure you get the idea.). The Nazi's and the KKK (just for a couple) were ostensibly Xtian. (and the tune is Deutschland uber alles)

[Mister Agenda]

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
You've got a point there. If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consenting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.

Which one of the things I mentioned that I believe would be legalized if everyone was an atheist do you consider evil?

And I would encourage any of the regulars to answer that also.

I guess I'm a regular now. Adult-child sex? Bad. Children aren't capable of understanding what they're getting into, so getting them to consent to being sexually exploited is no more a defense against the act being rape than getting a child's consent to being electrocuted is a defense against a child murder charge. Incest involving adults and children also right out. It's harder to justify a law against incest between consenting adults, but that is a pretty rare situation, isn't it?

Public sex is dangerously distracting. In a modest culture like ours, public nudity can be, also. I think the majority of atheist parents would prefer to keep both off Main Street so they can be in charge of their children's exposure to sexuality. Which answers the porn on public tv question, too.

Why would you even think that atheism has anything to do with school being optional? Who doesn't want their children to get a good education? Heck, who wants them home all day? :boggled:

This may be hard for someone who only refrains from killing defenceless children because of their religous convictions, but murder is bad, even if the victim needs some help to get along. Those of us without God have to get along on empathy and compassion.

All abortions were legal at all stages a few years ago. It was a completely similar society then. And believe it or not, many atheists have an issue with a late-term abortion that isn't necessary to protect the health of the mother. Even when they were legal, partial-birth abortions were very rarely chosen when the mother's health wasn't in danger. You see, most pregnant women don't wait until the last minute to decide not to deliver, even given the option.

I don't give a crap who or how many people you marry, though. It doesn't diminish me when someone else makes a different choice than I would in their adult relationships.

[Faithkills]

For example, think of a poor neighborhood in your area. Now take away all the churches in those poor neighborhoods, because if everyone was atheistic there would be no church going.
And if you take away those churches you'll also have to take away any charity work done by those churches. I have to believe if you took away the churches and charity work those churches do, crime would increase in that area.

But those churches espouse the idea that 'materialism' is bad and that lusting for 'earthly' success is a sin. "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

So consider that poor neighborhood might not exist at all if being poor were not glorified. And if those churches were not taking money from the already poor.

In general a population's affluence can be shown to be inversely proportionate to a the amount a culture embraces religion. So it's arguable that the 'help' these churches offer might be a lot less needed if the churches didn't exist in the first place.

[Safe-Keeper]

Public sex is dangerously distracting. In a modest culture like ours, public nudity can be, also. I think the majority of atheist parents would prefer to keep both off Main Street so they can be in charge of their children's exposure to sexuality. Which answers the porn on public tv question, too.Have to disagree with you there. 'Atheistic' Scandinavia has a fairly liberal view on nudism and typically don't shield children from naked bodies. Take your typical Scandinavian swimming pool locker room and you'll see at least one naked child (up to the age of 3-5) - often of the opposite gender.

They don't mind that we see them nude, we don't mind that they see us nude.

School would be optional at all ages.What immediately comes to mind is fundamentalists homeschooling kids.

Why not, isn't that the goal of most atheists- to eradicate religion from society.No.

And if that is not the goal than atheists must believe that religion is good for society.False dilemma.

But I don't think that is the case or there wouldn't be the constant attacking and mocking of religion in the threads.And of course this forum is representative of atheism as a whole now. Wow. Heard of 'silent moderates'?

[DOC]

Originally Posted by DOC

If everyone were atheists I'd be willing to bet sex with any consenting child would be legal. Incest would be legal. All drugs would be legalized. Polygamy would be legal. Homosexual marriages would be allowed. Public sex and nudity would be allowed. Porno would be allowed on all public TV channel that any child could watch. School would be optional at all ages. Handicapped and the mentally ill children would be allowed to be killed by their parents because they would be considered a burden to society. All abortions would be legal at all stages. We'd live in a totally different society. And after the society collapsed, the military would take over and of course it would be run by a ruthless dictator who would run a police state. Yes I'd be willing to bet all these actions would take place eventually.


This is a parody, right? Doc has been posting all this time, just yanking chains and seeing how high he can ratchet up the ridiculousness before people get it.

Because NOBODY is this stupid.

This Princeton professor who New Yorker magazine called the most influential philosopher of our time is that stupid. From post # 201

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3365329#post3365329

[DOC]

That list also includes Kim Jong Il, but no rational person would say, "If Time magazine listed Kim Jong Il as one of the 100 most influential people in 2005, then the majority of North Koreans support him and his views."

Similarly, no rational person would say, "If Time magazine listed Peter Singer (a noted and self-professed atheist) as one of the 100 most influential people in 2005, then the majority of atheists support him and his views"

Then who are all of people he is influencing, Christians??

[DOC]

..I couldn't believe it. It has to be a wind up. If it's not then I actually feel sorry for DOC or anyone who thinks like this.

It equates the irreligious or atheist with a total breakdown of society with no morals or laws. It's jaw dropping...

Then complain to Princeton and to the New Yorker Magazine and Time Magazine. See Post 201 and 208.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...29#post3365329