Act of God --- a scam of sorts?

[Just thinking]

How is it that insurance companies can claim "Act of God" (or Act of Nature) and be free of paying out to the insured? After all, isn't the unexpected what one is taking out insurance for?

[Francesca R]

Not really, it's the improbable. But the contract is only for certain defined improbable events.

"Act of God" is pretty meaningless other than as a convenient heading to group together certain events that the insurer does not want to cover for the price. It's not as if anyone ever has to demonstrate that goddidit.

[Reno]

Last week I was refused a ticket transfer or a refund for a flight from Glasgow to London when the planes had been grounded due to the storms in Scotland. When I asked the vapid little minger at the help desk why she wouldn't refund me, she told me it was an act of god that prevented the planes from flying.

I will be taking the matter up with her boss.

[Francesca R]

Last week I was refused a ticket transfer or a refund for a flight from Glasgow to London when the planes had been grounded due to the storms in Scotland. When I asked the vapid little minger at the help desk why she wouldn't refund me, she told me it was an act of god that prevented the planes from flying.

I will be taking the matter up with her boss.Good luck with that but it's exceedingly standard that airlines won't refund cancelled flights due to things that aren't in their control like weather.

You can probably get travel insurance to cover related costs you could face through not being able to travel, but even in that case, not the flight.

[Reno]

Good luck with that but it's exceedingly standard that airlines won't refund cancelled flights due to things that aren't in their control like weather.


It may be standard, but that doesn't make it right. I'll be taking it up with Mr Ryan Air.

ETA: I may claim to be offended by her 'act of god' comment because of my religion. This kind of cheap shot seems to work in the PC UK these days.

[Jesus H Christ]

Good luck with that but it's exceedingly standard that airlines won't refund cancelled flights due to things that aren't in their control like weather.

That's a great scam. They get paid in full for a flight that never happened. They would have much incentive to do this as often as possible.

[Francesca R]

It may be standard, but that doesn't make it right. I'll be taking it up with Mr Ryan Air.Ah right, Mr O'Leary. Yes you really are in for a waste of your time

ETA: I may claim to be offended by her 'act of god' comment because of my religion. This kind of cheap shot seems to work in the PC UK these days.Hmmm. Better idea. That might get the lady fired. :)

[Francesca R]

That's a great scam. They get paid in full for a flight that never happened. They would have much incentive to do this as often as possible.Incentive to do what? Create storms? Only you can do that (or your namesake :))

They still have to pay the airport for the departure slot, pay the cabin and ground crew, pay all other service charges, and take care of getting the plane to where it is supposed to be after the disruption to their schedule.

Where do you think they make a killing on this?

[Father Dagon]

Does the insurance companies claim AoG often? And didn't someone counter by suing the big G?

[Gazpacho]

ETA: I may claim to be offended by her 'act of god' comment because of my religion. This kind of cheap shot seems to work in the PC UK these days.
How novel. Maybe you should just tell the boss that the flight didn't happen and you want your money back.

Companies do not insure against acts of God because they tend to affect a lot of customers at once. Insurance only works as a business when the payout events have some degree of independence.

I assure you that airlines do not intentionally plan storms in order to profit from them.

[Esperdome]

We often are required to take out builder's insurance when constructing something that goes above and beyond a contractor's normal insurance, to cover Acts of God.

[Jesus H Christ]

Incentive to do what? Create storms? Only you can do that (or your namesake :))

They still have to pay the airport for the departure slot, pay the cabin and ground crew, pay all other service charges, and take care of getting the plane to where it is supposed to be after the disruption to their schedule.

Where do you think they make a killing on this?

Cabin crew are paid a lesser amount than they would if they completed the flight.
Departure slots are IFR reservations and free of charge, if you mean the facilities the airline rents, those costs are overhead and not flight related.
Ground crews service many planes per day and their cost per flight is low.
I don't know about other charges.

The windfall of profits is a direct result of fuel savings.

Airlines cannot control the weather, but they make judgment calls based on the weather and can choose to be very conservative if it suits them.

Whoop! Whoop!

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's a great scam. They get paid in full for a flight that never happened. They would have much incentive to do this as often as possible.I think they still get you there on another flight. I've never heard of them just keeping the money and not doing anything.

I think if a missed flight makes it so you have to cancel the trip, you might get some customer service like a renewed ticket on a future flight.

I fly all the time and even when I missed a plane twice because I messed up, they sent me on the next flight.

[Jesus H Christ]

You must be right. It's hard to believe they could blow you off completely and keep your money.

[Just thinking]

Not really, it's the improbable. But the contract is only for certain defined improbable events.

"Act of God" is pretty meaningless other than as a convenient heading to group together certain events that the insurer does not want to cover for the price. It's not as if anyone ever has to demonstrate that goddidit.

True enough, but there are events that one insures against and then lose out as a result of how it happened --- not what happened. For example, many auto insurance companies cover fire, theft, vandalism as a form of comprehensive coverage. But if that fire was the result of say a lightning strike --- it's Act of God ... we don't have to pay.

[Just thinking]

I think they still get you there on another flight. I've never heard of them just keeping the money and not doing anything.

I think if a missed flight makes it so you have to cancel the trip, you might get some customer service like a renewed ticket on a future flight.

I fly all the time and even when I missed a plane twice because I messed up, they sent me on the next flight.

I was once scheduled for an early morning flight (about 8 am) when it got canceled. We got another flight, but it was not until early evening. A totally wasted vacation day at the airport.

Oh ... and the reason for the cancellation ... get ready ... there weren't enough seats sold to make the flight profitable.

[alex04]

interesting subject. Anyone seen the movie - 'The Man who sued god?' (Billy Connoly)

[SezMe]

We often are required to take out builder's insurance when constructing something that goes above and beyond a contractor's normal insurance, to cover Acts of God.
Esper's right. No construction contract worth the paper its written on for any substantial facility lacks an Act of God clause.

[rjh01]

Back to the OP. With my insurance almost anything is covered that should be covered. Here is a link to the list (http://www.gio.com.au/gio/home_insurance/home_contents_insured_events.html). What is missing? A few years ago there was a massive insurance payout because a bush fire hit Canberra. Many homes were burnt.

Edit. Things missing.
Damage caused by a police search.
War.
Magic.

[Gazpacho]

But if that fire was the result of say a lightning strike --- it's Act of God ... we don't have to pay.
I think you'll find that fire insurers do in fact pay out for lightning strikes.

An "act of god" clause is more likely to appear in an agreement that is not an insurance policy. It is just a reminder that the contracting party is not in the insurance business. An airline is liable for those things it can prevent while running an airline, and any risks beyond that (such as life insurance) are for you to take care of.

For example, if you buy a house in an arid region, and wildfires burn it down, the person who sold you the house isn't liable. It's an act of God, and you had better insure against it.

[Francesca R]

I think they still get you there on another flight. I've never heard of them just keeping the money and not doing anything.
You must be right. It's hard to believe they could blow you off completely and keep your money.My recollection is that "low-cost" (high-hassle) carriers such as Ryanair don't automatically do this.

[fagin]

30 years in the insurance business and I've never seem an 'act of god' exclusion. Catastrophes such as earthquake in California, may be excluded or limited, but cover is generally available if you want it and pay for it.
Anyone actually got a wording excluding such acts, or is this just urban legend?

[Francesca R]

30 years in the insurance business and I've never seem an 'act of god' exclusion. Catastrophes such as earthquake in California, may be excluded or limited, but cover is generally available if you want it and pay for it.
Anyone actually got a wording excluding such acts, or is this just urban legend?A more common legal term is I think force majeure. I have seen the act of god definition used to group together exclusions, but I don't have a copy of a policy available to produce.

[Just thinking]

30 years in the insurance business and I've never seem an 'act of god' exclusion. Catastrophes such as earthquake in California, may be excluded or limited, but cover is generally available if you want it and pay for it.
Anyone actually got a wording excluding such acts, or is this just urban legend?

This (http://www.compactlaw.co.uk/legal_glossary/a/act_of_god.html) appears as no legend to me.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

My recollection is that "low-cost" (high-hassle) carriers such as Ryanair don't automatically do this.

Hmmm. Smells fishy to me.

From Ryanair's website under terms & conditions:

"Ryanair does not provide monetary compensation under Article 7 of EU Regulation 261/2004 for flights which are delayed or cancelled for reasons beyond Ryanair’s control (extraordinary circumstances). You may therefore wish to ensure that you have suitable private insurance cover in force to cover such eventualities. Your rights under EU Regulation 261/2004 are unaffected, so in the case of denied boarding, flight cancellation or a delay in excess of two hours you will be provided with a written notice setting out the rules for compensation and assistance in line with such Regulation. "

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/conditions.php

The regulation referred to requires them to refund your fare, even if the delay is for circumstances beyond their control:

http://www.ukecc.net/sub.asp?id=166#cancellation

What they are not required to do (and the T&C's make it clear they do not do) is pay cash compensation where the cancellation is due to extraordinary circumstances.

In short, you are absolutely entitled to a refund for your flight if it is cancelled due to bad weather. Sounds to me like someone got the rules on refunds mixed up with the rules on compensation.

[YoPopa]

30 years in the insurance business and I've never seem an 'act of god' exclusion. Catastrophes such as earthquake in California, may be excluded or limited, but cover is generally available if you want it and pay for it.
Anyone actually got a wording excluding such acts, or is this just urban legend?
This was explained to me as the basis of a defense regarding my homeowners insurance, not that it was written anywhere into the contract.

I was asking my agent, hypothetically, what might happen if that tree on my property fell on my neighbor's barn. Not to worry I was told. I would not be liable as the event would be considered an act of God so long as we had no reason to believe the tree was in greater danger of falling over than any other tree.

My neighbor was kind enough, a few months later, to point out that my tree was suffering some kind of serious decay. At that point God was off the hook and I was on it. If I failed to take a diseased tree down then I would be negligent if it did any harm.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

This was explained to me as the basis of a defense regarding my homeowners insurance, not that it was written anywhere into the contract.

I was asking my agent, hypothetically, what might happen if that tree on my property fell on my neighbor's barn. Not to worry I was told. I would not be liable as the event would be considered an act of God so long as we had no reason to believe the tree was in greater danger of falling over than any other tree.

My neighbor was kind enough, a few months later, to point out that my tree was suffering some kind of serious decay. At that point God was off the hook and I was on it. If I failed to take a diseased tree down then I would be negligent if it did any harm.

Don't see what that has to do with "act of god". If you are taking reasonable care but an accident happens you are not held responsible for it. If you are negligent (for example by not taking down a diseased tree) and as a result one of your neighbour suffers a loss you are responsible - god not required.

[Damien Evans]

Does the insurance companies claim AoG often? And didn't someone counter by suing the big G?

That was in a movie, not real life.

[Gazpacho]

Don't see what that has to do with "act of god". If you are taking reasonable care but an accident happens you are not held responsible for it.
But the original question didn't involve "reasonable care." It involved the tree falling without any reason to expect that it would fall.

That was in a movie, not real life.
It's happened in real life a few times (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22sues+god%22), and I think at least once with regard to an insurance claim.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

But the original question didn't involve "reasonable care." It involved the tree falling without any reason to expect that it would fall.

And would it be reasonable for you to expect this to happen? No. Therefore you have taken reasonable care.

If you had dug a swimming pool under one side of the tree and the resulting undercutting / destruction of roots caused it to fall (even if this was unexpected) then you would have a much tougher job to show you had taken reasonable care.

[YoPopa]

And would it be reasonable for you to expect this to happen? No. Therefore you have taken reasonable care.

Correct. That is why my insurance company would defend me in a lawsuit if my neighbor started one. The defense they would present would be "It ain't his fault, he could not have known, God did it cause God works in mysterious ways."

[fagin]

This (http://www.compactlaw.co.uk/legal_glossary/a/act_of_god.html) appears as no legend to me.

I have still to see one in an insurance contract. I have worked in Africa, the Antipodes, and London (on multinationals, including US based).
There are basically two types of wording, an all risks - which covers everything not specifically excluded, and defined events, which specifies perils.
Literally anything may, or may not be included or excluded, but I find it highly improbable that any wording excluding acts of god would stand in court.
(Although to an outsider US courts can seem quite bizarre sometimes)
It may have been used in the distant past - Marine policies used to refer to the perils of the sea, sea monsters and the like, but more likely to have nuclear exclusion clauses these days.

"Companies do not insure against acts of God because they tend to affect a lot of customers at once. Insurance only works as a business when the payout events have some degree of independence."

Re Gazpacho - Insurers do pay out on natural disasters and catastrophes - floods, storms, earthquakes, bush fires can all be covered but specific covers may not be available in specific high risk areas.
Suggest you read what you pay for, and shop around like everything else.
Lots of waffle here but can anyone produce a wording substantiating their position.

[fagin]

ps - Insurers do prefer not to pay claims, and the quality of staff tends to be dire (what do you want to be when you grow up - policeman?, fireman? insurance broker? - yeah right!) and in many cases juniors will chuck claims out having never actually read a wording - just that someone has told them we don't pay those for xyz reason.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Correct. That is why my insurance company would defend me in a lawsuit if my neighbor started one. The defense they would present would be "It ain't his fault, he could not have known, God did it cause God works in mysterious ways."

I suspect the defense would be:

""It ain't his fault, he could not have known."

[YoPopa]

I suspect the defense would be:

""It ain't his fault, he could not have known."
And your point is what?

We are talking about the same set of circumstances and agree about the liability issues. I was only saying that in the parlance of my insurance agent "It ain't his fault, he could not have known." equals "Act of God".

No one is arguing the power or existence of a deity here. Just defining a common idiom.

Idiom according to wikipedia: "An idiom is an expression, that is a term or phrase whose meaning cannot be deduced from the literal definitions and the arrangement of its parts"

[Jaggy Bunnet]

And your point is what?

We are talking about the same set of circumstances and agree about the liability issues. I was only saying that in the parlance of my insurance agent "It ain't his fault, he could not have known." equals "Act of God".

No one is arguing the power or existence of a deity here. Just defining a common idiom.

Idiom according to wikipedia: "An idiom is an expression, that is a term or phrase whose meaning cannot be deduced from the literal definitions and the arrangement of its parts"

Fair enough.

I think it was the reference to your insurance company abasing their defence on "God did it" that made me think you were talking about something other than a mundane "reasonable care" position.

[Lisa Simpson]

Several years ago, we had heavy rains, followed by high winds, which caused my neighbor's tree to fall on my house, damaging the roof. Her insurance refused to cover the damage because it was an act of god. My insurance covered the damage, however. God hates Southern California.

[Reno]

Regarding the Ryanair shenanigans the other day, when I first approached the customer service desk, the plane had already been delayed over 2 hours. I knew that I should have been given a ticket transfer (I was flying for an medical appointment which I could no longer meet due to the delay). I asked for a ticket transfer and was immediately refused. I then asked for a refund and was given the 'act of god' statement. It was obvious that the hormonal, pasty-faced little bint was giving me her own opinion instead of the company policy.

I will pursue this matter to the small claims court if neccessary, and if it means the girl is transferred to another area, then that will be satisfying as IMHO she has no place in customer service.

[Gazpacho]

Lots of waffle here but can anyone produce a wording substantiating their position.


Delta Airlines contract of carriage:

"Delta may refuse to transport any passenger, and may remove any passenger from its aircraft at any time, for any of the following reasons:
...
whenever such action is necessary or advisable by reason of weather or other conditions beyond its control (including but without limitation, acts of God, force majeure, strikes, civil commotions, embargoes, wars, hostilities, or disturbances) actual, threatened, or reported."

This is not an insurance contract. I'm not surprised that you haven't seen an AoG clause in an insurance contract. As I said, the whole point of the clause is to leave insurance to the insurance companies.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Regarding the Ryanair shenanigans the other day, when I first approached the customer service desk, the plane had already been delayed over 2 hours. I knew that I should have been given a ticket transfer (I was flying for an medical appointment which I could no longer meet due to the delay). I asked for a ticket transfer and was immediately refused.

On what basis should you have been given a ticket transfer? I can't see anything in the EU regulations or Ryanair terms that give you the right to anything more than meals/refreshments/phone calls unless the delay exceeds five hours.

[Francesca R]

Regarding the Ryanair shenanigans the other day, when I first approached the customer service desk, the plane had already been delayed over 2 hours. I knew that I should have been given a ticket transfer (I was flying for an medical appointment which I could no longer meet due to the delay). I asked for a ticket transfer and was immediately refused. I then asked for a refund and was given the 'act of god' statement. It was obvious that the hormonal, pasty-faced little bint was giving me her own opinion instead of the company policy.

I will pursue this matter to the small claims court if neccessary, and if it means the girl is transferred to another area, then that will be satisfying as IMHO she has no place in customer service.It sounds like at the time you were dealing with a delay of 2 hours, and at that point the flight was not cancelled. So as of then, you're not entitled to either of the things you asked for. Subsequent cancellation should entitle you to a refund but perhaps you were being treated fairly at the time.

[fagin]

Delta Airlines contract of carriage:

"Delta may refuse to transport any passenger, and may remove any passenger from its aircraft at any time, for any of the following reasons:
...
whenever such action is necessary or advisable by reason of weather or other conditions beyond its control (including but without limitation, acts of God, force majeure, strikes, civil commotions, embargoes, wars, hostilities, or disturbances) actual, threatened, or reported."

This is not an insurance contract. I'm not surprised that you haven't seen an AoG clause in an insurance contract. As I said, the whole point of the clause is to leave insurance to the insurance companies.

Thread was about insurance scams. That's what I was commenting on. Not airline scams.

[phrenicgermal]

Good luck with that but it's exceedingly standard that airlines won't refund cancelled flights due to things that aren't in their control like weather.

You can probably get travel insurance to cover related costs you could face through not being able to travel, but even in that case, not the flight.

Seriously? I would be so bloody steamed. I payed for my ticket, I showed up on time with my bags, and I'd expect the airline to either deliver the product that I paid for (a flight) or refund my money.

The side of me that the airline employees see would not be pleaseant.

And I've missed a flight, Heathrow to O'Hare, due to being too late at the airport. I had to pay a fortune to take an emergency flight on Air France. That's another story, though, it was my fault for being late. (It's also why I now almost always arrive at least an hour ahead of when I should arrive for any major flight or train trip these days).

[phrenicgermal]

Incentive to do what? Create storms? Only you can do that (or your namesake :))

They still have to pay the airport for the departure slot, pay the cabin and ground crew, pay all other service charges, and take care of getting the plane to where it is supposed to be after the disruption to their schedule.

Where do you think they make a killing on this?

That's not the point. I paid for a flight. It is their responsibility to deliver. Maybe they do have those problems but that's exactly what they are, their problems.

For example, if I hire somebody to do something for me and he or she has car problems and has difficulty making it to work then I will try to be accomidating. I will not, however, pay him if he never shows up and does the job.

[rjh01]

I agree with post 44. If I paid for a flight either they take me on the flight or they give me my money back. The only qualification is that they have told me otherwise before they sell me the ticket.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

I agree with post 44. If I paid for a flight either they take me on the flight or they give me my money back. The only qualification is that they have told me otherwise before they sell me the ticket.

And in relation to Reno's flight, if it was cancelled, he is absolutely entitled to a refund of the fare:

http://www.ukecc.net/sub.asp?id=166#cancellation

No airline (in the EU) can avoid this obligation.

From his last post on this thread he appears to believe he was entitled to a "ticket transfer" after a two hour delay. It is not clear what the basis for this belief is. He also has not (as far as I can see) stated that his flight was actually cancelled - he refers to it being grounded and to having been delayed for more than two hours meaning he would not have made his appointment, but not stated it was cancelled.

It is possible that the flight was not cancelled and was delayed less than 5 hours. In that case no refund is due.

If he did not travel then he could claim back fees and taxes (although after the airline deducts their admin charge this may not amount to much).

[Foolmewunz]

I've been somewhat involved in insurance for about forty years. I'm in forwarding/logistics, and we have to have coverage for about nine different elements in the supply chain. Warehouseman's, Truck/Inland, Terminals, Seafreight, Airfreight, Rail, Multi-modal, etc....

Force Majeure is the going term. No one uses Act of God in an insurance policy or cover note. In fact, it's the carriers (truckers, vessel owners, airlines, etc...) who usually use Force Majeure to cover themselves, and it's the responsibility of the shipper/consignee to go out and buy the coverage they need to cover those items that are excluded in the contract for carriage, but are in need of coverage. The insurance companies and underwriters do have items that they will also want to exclude, but they're not generally lumped under Force Majeure. Rather, they are named in specific exclusion clauses. (Machinery Clause, Strikes Riots & Civil Commotions Clause, etc...)

I went through the glossaries of about nine major sites that I work with, and not one of them even has an entry under "Act of God". (I'm sure there are others like Compact Law, cited above, that will mention the term, but it's not specific enough to please an underwriter or Re.)

So it's not an insurance "scam". It may be a business ploy to limit the liability of one contracting party to another, but that's why one buys insurance.

You can insure anything if you find the right insurance company, agent, or underwriter. Concert and event organizers can insure against rain, for instance.

[Almo]

I was once scheduled for an early morning flight (about 8 am) when it got canceled. We got another flight, but it was not until early evening. A totally wasted vacation day at the airport.

Oh ... and the reason for the cancellation ... get ready ... there weren't enough seats sold to make the flight profitable.

Wow... had no idea they could do that. Though thinking about it, they can really do whatever they want; the planes are theirs, after all. And if there weren't enough sales, that's not even that many pissed-off customers. ;)