lol @ Ted Kennedy's speech

[bigred]

Recap follows:

"blah blah JFK blah blah New Frontier blah blah 1960s blah blah blah........."

:rolleyes:

Even if I was a hard-core Democrat, I'd be praying for a merciful end to this already. He's out-doing Kerry for vapid rhetoric and talking w/o saying a thing.

On a more worthy note, Caroline K is still smokin. I bet Obama drills her within his first year in office. ;)

Edit: lol @ me accidentally putting in wrong forum. Pardon

[madurobob]

I am a hard-core democrat and I wish he would shut the hell up sometimes. As for Caroline, my wife called to me from the study last night "Honey! Caroline Kennedy has endorsed Barack Obama!". I thought "who the heck cares". Her "endorsement" speaks more to attention whorishness than anything else. Maybe I'll hold a press conference to announce my endorsement, too. About as meaningful.

(then, of course, I realized that if it caused my wife to shout it MUST be important!)

[bigred]

As for Caroline, my wife called to me from the study last night "Honey! Caroline Kennedy has endorsed Barack Obama!". I thought "who the heck cares". Her "endorsement" speaks more to attention whorishness than anything else. Maybe I'll hold a press conference to announce my endorsement, too. About as meaningful.
Agree 100% - that's exactly what I thought when I heard this. Course you know why this is news.....it's all a big joke of a circus (ie the whole election thing). People aren't interested in stuff like issues, really; it's all about popularity and being "likable" or "hip" or whatever and playing all these soap opera games. Sadly, the majority of the public eats it up and many will vote based on such BS.

Another example and in fairness it didn't exactly hurt Bush that his dad was former President (at least regarding GW's first election). The name most certainly helped him in no small way. ie I am not attempting a "liberal bash" by any means. The whole Kennedy sideshow is such all on its own, nothing to do w/political leanings.

[JJM]

{snip}

Edit: lol @ me accidentally putting in wrong forum. PardonI nominated this for the stupidest post, in any forum. No need to apologize.

[geni]

Agree 100% - that's exactly what I thought when I heard this. Course you know why this is news.....it's all a big joke of a circus (ie the whole election thing). People aren't interested in stuff like issues, really; it's all about popularity and being "likable" or "hip" or whatever and playing all these soap opera games. Sadly, the majority of the public eats it up and many will vote based on such BS.

Kennedy is an older white male and obama needs support from that group. Being a senitor probably helps.

[jmercer]

Moved here from the Science forum for obvious reasons.

[Darth Rotor]

Moved here from the Science forum for obvious reasons.
Ya ever hear of political science? :D

DR

[Tsukasa Buddha]

:rolleyes:

The political blinders help you see better, I'm sure.

[bigred]

yeah what DR said!

[Cicero]

Teddy and Caroline must be living in a time warp. With everything we have learned about JFK since 1963, why would any rational voter, even the mercurial liberal voter, want Obama to emulate JFK's presidency?

How will Lanny Davis, the professional Clinton apologist, spin this endorsement by the first tier Kennedy clan? Well, he says that two of RFK's offspring, Kathleen Kennedy Townsend and RFK Jr, still support Hillary. This is some forward looking party. They still cling to the phony Camelot administration from 45 years ago.

[bigred]

Well I think he handled the missile crisis well. And.....um............

Anyway I hear you but it's hard to shake that whole Camelot thing. It was powerful stuff.

[corplinx]

Kennedy is an older white male

Yeah, old white guys really look to Ted Kennedy for their direction.

[Undesired Walrus]

Well I think he handled the missile crisis well. And.....um............


.......bugged Martin Luther King's office?

[rtalman]

.......bugged Martin Luther King's office?.......nailed the hottest actress of his era?

[Cicero]

.......nailed the hottest actress of his era?

By the time JFK and RFK nailed Monroe, she was years past her prime. But JFK did screw Lee Radziwill, Jackie' sister, while Jackie was in the hospital. What a guy!

[fishbob]

By the time JFK and RFK nailed Monroe, she was years past her prime.

That is patently offensive, you young whippersnapper.
She was IN her prime.

[Elizabeth I]

Her "endorsement" speaks more to attention whorishness than anything else.

To be fair (and I pretty generally detest the entire K clan), Caroline hasn't pulled the whole Kennedy-attention-whore thing. As far as I can tell, she has been very quiet and behind-the-scenes.

By the time JFK and RFK nailed Monroe, she was years past her prime. But JFK did screw Lee Radziwill, Jackie's sister, while Jackie was in the hospital. What a guy!

Not to mention, what a sister!

[madurobob]

As far as I can tell, she has been very quiet and behind-the-scenes.
Yep - until Sunday when she had an Op_ed piece in the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/opinion/27kennedy.html) endorsing Obama.

(sorry the link to the NY Times requires registration and I usually am loathe to post such links. I post it now only as evidence. You can read about her endorsement here (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/01/26/politics/horserace/entry3755554.shtml) or many other places via google)

[Just thinking]

Well I think he handled the missile crisis well. And.....um............

Anyway I hear you but it's hard to shake that whole Camelot thing. It was powerful stuff.

Well, for me the good things that JFK did were ...

1) Positively (for the US) resolve the missile crisis as you said.

2) Publically announce a goal for putting a man on the moon in short order. A nice shot in the arm for science and technology.

3) Reduce the upper tax rates.

4) Make the famous "Ask not what your country can do for you, but rather what you can do for your country."

Now ... just exactly what is it that Obama has done or said that resonates with any of the above?

[Cicero]

Well, for me the good things that JFK did were ...

1) Positively (for the US) resolve the missile crisis as you said.

2) Publically announce a goal for putting a man on the moon in short order. A nice shot in the arm for science and technology.

3) Reduce the upper tax rates.

4) Make the famous "Ask not what your country can do for you, but rather what you can do for your country."

Now ... just exactly what is it that Obama has done or said that resonates with any of the above?


1) JFK caused the Cuban missile crisis by making a hash out of the Bay of Pigs invasion. Castro sought the help of the Soviets and they obliged. JFK also signaled his weakness by not challenging the DDR and Soviets when they built the Berlin Wall in 1961.

JFK backed down on inspection for compliance by the Soviets that they did indeed remove any offensive missiles. He then proceeded to lie to the public about the resolution of the Cuban missile crisis, denying that the U.S. had agreed to withdraw vital installations from Turkey in exchange for the removal of Soviet missiles from Cuba.

2) As to his challenge to land a man on the moon before the decade was out, his cost estimates were way off and critics pointed out that this was a misallocation of resources. The New York Times editorialized in March 1967 "We fail to see that it makes any great difference who reaches the moon first or whether the landing takes place in the 1960's or mid-1970's...The moon is not going away."

3) His best political achievement was to get U.S. Steel to freeze their prices.

4) His famous quote was plagiarized from "The New Frontier” by Lebanese writer Khalil Gibran.

While JFK did all the things you mentioned during his Presidential administration, he did zero while as a congressman and senator. So as far as congressional accomplishments, Obama has already left JFK in the dust.

[Cicero]

That is patently offensive, you young whippersnapper.
She was IN her prime.

While Monroe received iconic status due to her early death, she was hardly the most attractive of her 1950's contemporaries. Grace Kelly, Gloria Graham, Jane Greer, Gene Tierney, Jane Russell were sexier, without wearing their sex around their neck, and much more talented.

[Just thinking]

1) JFK caused the Cuban missile crisis by making a hash out of the Bay of Pigs invasion. Castro sought the help of the Soviets and they obliged. JFK also signaled his weakness by not challenging the DDR and Soviets when they built the Berlin Wall in 1961.

JFK backed down on inspection for compliance by the Soviets that they did indeed remove any offensive missiles. He then proceeded to lie to the public about the resolution of the Cuban missile crisis, denying that the U.S. had agreed to withdraw vital installations from Turkey in exchange for the removal of Soviet missiles from Cuba.

2) As to his challenge to land a man on the moon before the decade was out, his cost estimates were way off and critics pointed out that this was a misallocation of resources. The New York Times editorialized in March 1967 "We fail to see that it makes any great difference who reaches the moon first or whether the landing takes place in the 1960's or mid-1970's...The moon is not going away."

3) His best political achievement was to get U.S. Steel to freeze their prices.

4) His famous quote was plagiarized from "The New Frontier” by Lebanese writer Khalil Gibran.

While JFK did all the things you mentioned during his Presidential administration, he did zero while as a congressman and senator. So as far as congressional accomplishments, Obama has already left JFK in the dust.

So you're not going to answer my question, but instead derail it by somehow de-emphasizing those accomplishments? I really don't give a rat's tail end as to what the NY Times has to say regarding the accomplishments of the US Space Program. (Not to mention that when the actual landing occured, they ran their largest hedline ever.) And I don't care who plagiarized what ... it was the sentiment he put forward to the US.

[Cicero]

So you're not going to answer my question, but instead derail it by somehow de-emphasizing those accomplishments? I really don't give a rat's tail end as to what the NY Times has to say regarding the accomplishments of the US Space Program. (Not to mention that when the actual landing occured, they ran their largest hedline ever.) And I don't care who plagiarized what ... it was the sentiment he put forward to the US.

So students should be taught that it is OK to plagiarize as long as they were motivated by sentiment?

What did JFK have to do with the accomplishments of the U.S. Space Program? At the time of his death, the only thing NASA had accomplished was to follow the Soviets into space.

You are confusing the NYT editorial page with the NYT front page. Did you think the NYT was going to bury the Moon landing, possibly the most significant event in history, on page six?

I did answer your question. You just did not like the answer. Who is to say that Obama would not inspire Americans as President? You want to compare JFK as President to Obama as U.S. Senator. Hardly a fair, or even valid, analogy. As I already stated, JFK's record in the congress was singularly void of accomplishment.

[Just thinking]

So students should be taught that it is OK to plagiarize as long as they were motivated by sentiment?

No ... you clearly missed the point; twice. It was JFK's feeling as how the people should look at their country --- what they can do to make it better, not what it can do for them.

What did JFK have to do with the accomplishments of the U.S. Space Program? At the time of his death, the only thing NASA had accomplished was to follow the Soviets into space.

He put it on the front burner and gave it the go ahead. A president can do a great deal regarding just how much a particular technology or area of science can either grow or shrink. And his death was not something he planned nor expected. His term as president was cut short by an a-hole. I'm sure he would have stood proudly even after his term(s) and honored those that landed on the moon, and all those that got them there. (What a pointless argument you make.)

You are confusing the NYT editorial page with the NYT front page. Did you think the NYT was going to bury the Moon landing, possibly the most significant event in history, on page six?

So their Op-Ed had to back off, eh?

I did answer your question. You just did not like the answer. Who is to say that Obama would not inspire Americans as President? You want to compare JFK as President to Obama as U.S. Senator. Hadley a fair, or even valid, analogy. As I already stated, JFK's record in the congress was singularly void of accomplishment.

Now it is you that is confused, as the OP is about Uncle Ted's ridiculous claims about Obama being the next JFK, and how I tried to point out what JFK actually did and how he felt about the US and its direction. And how Obama doesn't show much in his accomplishments or speeches that points to that direction.

[UserGoogol]

So students should be taught that it is OK to plagiarize as long as they were motivated by sentiment?

There is nothing wrong with plagiarism as such. Information wants to be free. The only problem with plagiarism is that if you are implying the work is your own, then you are lying, which can be particularly bad in professional and academic situations. But in speeches there is no such implication. Did Lincoln plagiarize the bible when he said "A house divided against itself cannot stand?"

[Cicero]

No ... you clearly missed the point; twice. It was JFK's feeling as how the people should look at their country --- what they can do to make it better, not what it can do for them.



He put it on the front burner and gave it the go ahead. A president can do a great deal regarding just how much a particular technology or area of science can either grow or shrink. And his death was not something he planned nor expected. His term as president was cut short by an a-hole. I'm sure he would have stood proudly even after his term(s) and honored those that landed on the moon, and all those that got them there. (What a pointless argument you make.)



So their Op-Ed had to back off, eh?



Now it is you that is confused, as the OP is about Uncle Ted's ridiculous claims about Obama being the next JFK, and how I tried to point out what JFK actually did and how he felt about the US and its direction. And how Obama doesn't show much in his accomplishments or speeches that points to that direction.


Would it have been too much to have asked JFK to attribute the quote instead of assuming authorship? Of course this was a habit of JFK as he did not author "Profiles In Courage" either. Since Ted Sorenson wrote that, as well as many of JFK's speeches, perhaps your idolization is misdirected.

Had JFK survived his one term, do you really think his memory today, assuming he died of natural causes, would be the same as that of an assassinated President? Surely you jest. Who knows when Jackie would have divorced the guy. Who knows what scandal would have been aired in the changing media that ignored JFK's indiscretions while he was alive.

The fact that Chappaquiddick Ted invoked the "New Frontier" phrase, that also was plagiarized from Gibran, in his endorsement of Obama, just goes to show that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Why would we want Obama to emulate JFK? Lincoln, FDR, Washington, etc, but JFK? That makes no sense.

By the way, Ike was President at the time NASA was established on July 29, 1958. NASA's Mercury program, initiated in 1958, started America down the path of human space exploration. To say JFK put the space prgram on the "front burner" is absurd. He didn't even consult NASA before making the Moon landing statement. JFK also later suggested to the UN not a race but a co-operative effort with the Soviets.

[bigred]

I think my orig point is being lost, actually, ie Ted's speech was a joke, esp as it spoke to little if anything about how/why Obama is a good candidate

And although I didn't bring it up earlier, I also find it bizarre that anyone gives a flip who any Kennedy endorses, least of all a politician's freakin daughter. Gee why stop there? I wonder who Ron Regan's nephew's sister-in-law endorses?? Oh the suspense.

[Cicero]

There is nothing wrong with plagiarism as such. Information wants to be free. The only problem with plagiarism is that if you are implying the work is your own, then you are lying, which can be particularly bad in professional and academic situations. But in speeches there is no such implication. Did Lincoln plagiarize the bible when he said "A house divided against itself cannot stand?"

Another invalid analogy. Quoting scripture without providing the proper chapter and verse does not make the orator guilty of plagiarism. Did anyone think Lincoln authored the Old Testament? But JFK deliberately claiming credit for the idea of a phrase, that became the hallmark of his Presidency, is just fraud.

If you think that there is no implication of "lying" when co-opting another person's words in your speech, you are woefully uninformed. Ask Joe Biden what happened to him when he plagiarized passages in speeches and interviews from the oratory of a British politician, Neil Kinnock, during his 1987Presidential campaign. His campaign collapsed and he withdrew from the race.

[Just thinking]

I think my orig point is being lost, actually, ie Ted's speech was a joke, esp as it spoke to little if anything about how/why Obama is a good candidate

I didn't miss that at all --- in more ways than one.

And although I didn't bring it up earlier, I also find it bizarre that anyone gives a flip who any Kennedy endorses, least of all a politician's freakin daughter. Gee why stop there? I wonder who Ron Regan's nephew's sister-in-law endorses?? Oh the suspense.

Yes, endorsements are rather useless --- even if my best friend endorsed someone I wasn't likely to vote for, it would have little impact on my vote. But if I was a candidate and my best friend endorsed my opponent ...

[Just thinking]

Would it have been to much to have asked JFK to attribute the quote instead of assuming authorship? Of course this was a habit of JFK as he did not author "Profiles In Courage" either. Since Ted Sorenson wrote that, as well as many of JFK's speeches, perhaps your idolization is misdirected.

It's not so much idolizing as it is policy making --- which is what I was supporting.

Had JFK survived his one term, do you really think his memory today, assuming he died of natural causes, would be the same as that of an assassinated President? Surely you jest. Who knows when Jackie would have divorced the guy. Who knows what scandal would have been aired in the changing media that ignored JFK's indiscretions while he was alive.

We don't know, so your playing into that is just conjecture. His expressions about the space program, America's role in such and its technological advances as a result however are not speculation.

Why would we want Obama to emulate JFK? Lincoln, FDR, Washington, etc, but JFK? That makes no sense.

You would if you believed in what they stood for or represented.

By the way, Ike was President at the time NASA was established on July 29, 1958. NASA's Mercury program, initiated in 1958, started America down the path of human space exploration. To say JFK put the space prgram on the "front burner" is absurd. He didn't even consult NASA before making the Moon landing statement. JFK also later suggested to the UN not a race but a co-operative effort with the Soviets.

Non-sequitur (to the argument at hand). He wanted to see America on the moon before the decade was out. That was his feeling as to the direction of the US, it does not require the approval of NASA (how he felt).

[Cicero]

It's not so much idolizing as it is policy making --- which is what I was supporting.



We don't know, so your playing into that is just conjecture. His expressions about the space program, America's role in such and its technological advances as a result however are not speculation.



You would if you believed in what they stood for or represented.



Non-sequitur (to the argument at hand). He wanted to see America on the moon before the decade was out. That was his feeling as to the direction of the US, it does not require the approval of NASA (how he felt).

1) So you endorsed JFK's policy to continue U.S. military presence in Vietnam?

"Our security and strength, in the last analysis, directly depend on the security and strength of others, and that is why our military and economic assistance plays such a key role in enabling those who live on the periphery of the Communist world to maintain their independence of choice. Our assistance to these nations can be painful, risky, and costly, as is true in Southeast Asia today. But we dare not weary of the task. For our assistance makes possible the stationing of 3.5 million allied troops along the Communist frontier at one-tenth the cost of maintaining a comparable number of American soldiers. A successful Communist breakthrough in these area, necessitating direct United States intervention, would cost us several times as much as our entire foreign aid program, and might cost us heavily in American lives as well."

JFK Trade Mart Speech, November 22, 1963
Killed before giving this speech.

2) Ike had the same expressions about space exploration and actually put into action the implementation of NASA. How is JFK credited with the inventions from Outer Space any more than Ike?

3) While the perspective of history has only reinforced the positive impressions of Lincoln, Washington, FDR, etc, it has only further diminished JFK's Camelot hokum. JFK stood for deceit, wholesale infidelity, and reckless behavior. Memories are a tricky thing. One tends to preserve the sizzle, but ignore the fact that there was no steak.

[Just thinking]

1) So you endorsed JFK's policy to continue U.S. military presence in Vietnam?

STRAWMAN ALERT

Here's what I typed, and why I will now stop this useless exchange (from my side) as you have decided to no longer argue me, but yourself.

Well, for me the good things that JFK did were ...

1) Positively (for the US) resolve the missile crisis as you said.

2) Publically announce a goal for putting a man on the moon in short order. A nice shot in the arm for science and technology.

3) Reduce the upper tax rates.

4) Make the famous "Ask not what your country can do for you, but rather what you can do for your country."

Have a good day, sir.

[Cicero]

The favorite liberal Wizard of Oz character makes its inevitable appearance; the Straw Man accusation.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I think we need more people who can't see past their political biases in this thread.

[Brainster]

I am a hard-core democrat and I wish he would shut the hell up sometimes. As for Caroline, my wife called to me from the study last night "Honey! Caroline Kennedy has endorsed Barack Obama!". I thought "who the heck cares". Her "endorsement" speaks more to attention whorishness than anything else. Maybe I'll hold a press conference to announce my endorsement, too. About as meaningful.

I'm a hard-core Republican and I disagree. Any Democratic candidates are thrilled with any connection they can draw between themselves and the Kennedys. I remember watching the Democratic National Convention in 1992, and when they showed that picture of Bill Clinton as a teenager shaking the hand of JFK you could sense the electricity. And I recall a Time Magazine illustrated cover of Jimmy Carter from 1971 that made him look like the fifth Kennedy brother:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_9777479fab5f2d496.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=10433)

In a strictly logical world, yes, we'd all say Caroline's endorsement does nothing for Obama. But this is not a strictly logical world.

[Cicero]

But Jimmy only had lust in his heart. To be a full fledged Kennedy, in the mold of the iconic JFK and RFK, he would have had to had Carnal Knowledge with a fading movie star.

[madurobob]

I'm a hard-core Republican and I disagree. Any Democratic candidates are thrilled with any connection they can draw between themselves and the Kennedys. I remember watching the Democratic National Convention in 1992, and when they showed that picture of Bill Clinton as a teenager shaking the hand of JFK you could sense the electricity. And I recall a Time Magazine illustrated cover of Jimmy Carter from 1971 that made him look like the fifth Kennedy brother:

I disagree. Any Kennedy connection certainly was a boon to a candidate in 1971 and rightfully so. A Kennedy connection in 1992 was a nicety but by no means a necessity. Today, however, a Ted Kennedy endorsement can be as much an albatross around the neck as a helpful wind in the sails. He carries a lot of weight in the Senate, but increasingly is seen as "that old blowhard from Massachusetts" by much of the voters. For Obama the Ted Kennedy endorsement helps simply because it symbolizes the old establishment acceptance of him (and, perhaps more pointedly, a rejection of Hilary).

But, you missed the point of my post. I was speaking of Caroline and her endorsement. The Kennedy family is not what it once was and Democrats don't hang on every word from every family member. In her Op-Ed piece for the NYT I got the impression she was trying to claim the bully pulpit her kin enjoyed in decades past, but it just didn't work. It came off as much as "look at me, I'm important" as it did "Obama is the right man for the job".

Finally, lets not pretend its only Democrats who have such idols. How much longer do I have to put up with Republican candidates calling themselves "Reagan Republicans" instead of actually saying what it is they stand for?

[joobie]

someone at work told me the kennedys were endorsing obama.

i asked if the kopechnes were endorsing hillary because of it.

nobody understood what i was talking about.