Split thread: I sell magnetic therapy products

[magnetic]

Moved from the "Welcome..." thread to this section and a new thread.


Hi,
Just joined and I sell magnetic therapy products. Who threw that!!!!!!!
I too read the report by Fingold and Flamm as I mentioned in my intoduction as a new member, picking out a ridiculous statement by a company who probably copied from someone else who doesn't know what they are talking about is not proof of evidence that it doesn't work!
Most of the outlandish claims come from the US and any one new wanting to cash in on selling jewellery with magnets (I phrased that on purpose) would most likely copy someone else's phrases off the website or brochure.
F and F did this and hey presto they found a load of idiots who didn't know what they were talking about and this is the evidence they produced as "proof"!
For the sake of argument I will pick out a couple of points that F and F used as "proof".
1. Sellers claim that magnets help flush out toxins.
2. Magnets can increase blood flow.
3. Is there anything in the human body that is affected by magnetic fields, the answer appears to be no!

Firstly they accept that "moving magnetic fields can create electrical fields that can have some effect on living tissue" what if an atomic particle moves through a magnetic field at speed? the Hall Effect tells us that this will generate an electical field which in turn increases energy. The iron in blood is paramagnetic even if only slightly and if you place blood that is clustered together onto a powerful magnet they will separate and I have seen this done within 5 minutes.
The proton has a positive potential and the electron negative, in blood the iron atom has more electrons that protons which means they are meant to and will stay separated in ideal conditions the same as two like pole magnets. Put an electron and proton near each other and they will move closer together. The theory is that the increase energy created in red blood cells help IMPROVE (not increase 2.) the pick up of oxygen which in turn improves the delivery of oxygen into damaged cells. By improving blood flow into damaged cells and tissue help with the removal of carbon dioxide and toxins and waste (lympahtic system 1.) Basically this what we do when we first hurt ourselves-we rub it to generate heat and improved blood flow into the area. No one can deny that improving circulation is the key to good health (along with other good health practices) especially if there are no drugs involved and cheap!
And now the crunch 3! F and F write a lot about the effects of the MRI and it's non effect on this or that so tell me what then is the purpose of an MRI scan if nothing in the human body is effected by a magnetic field??????

In my humble opinion as long as the products are sold ethically, which is why I strongly believe that the industry should be regulated, and they can be returned for a refund if no benefit is felt (try this with your box of pills or creams at your local chemist) then I can see no harm.
The biggest problem is the misleading claims and again the US are more guilty of this and indeed F and F use two US companies as examples and more importantly the journal that sparked this "investigation" the British Medical Journal.
The BMJ published a report of a clinical trial where magnets were used to ease pain caused by Oesteoarthritis of the hip and knee. People did feel a benefit but the placebo could not be ruled out so the trial was flawed. The product used was a magnetic wrist strap with a magnet of certain power and dimensions. When the BMJ and newspaper journalists published these "amazing" results they both used the term "bracelet" and subsequently showed images of fashion jewellery magnetic bracelets and bangles. The magnets in these items are often so weak so as not to pick up even a paper clip which were not the same strength as used in the trial. So off the public go the local market, buy a pretty bangle or magnetic bracelet and hey presto two to thee weeks later no benefit!!!! suprise suprise and in come F and F and every other expert who pounced on these articles but didn't read it through. Wood and trees and blind leading the bling come to mind.
Back to the magnets used in the trial, the company then went on to change the design of the wrist strap used and put in a smaller weaker magnet and some of the agents still use the trial as a sales aid!!!
Enough said. I hope I have shown that even those who would judge are not without fault and they too can mislead. I rest my case----for now!
Ray

[Asolepius]

Welcome. When you have had time to settle in you might begin to understand a key point. You open by saying that you sell `magnetic therapy products'. OK, so what is therapeutic about them? What claims are you making? The ball starts off in your court. We don't have to prove anything, but you do. So tell us where to find the evidence. You are serving in this game, and so far it's love 15.

Oh, I nearly forgot. Who is saying that MRI has no effects (please note this is the noun, affect is the verb) on the body? Do you not know the difference between diagnostics and therapeutics?

Anyway, I genuinely hope you do stick around here because you will learn something, if you want to. I did, and still do.

[Sasha]

Welcome to the forum.
You've done quite a job of bashing the BMJ and various other people involved in testing these magnetic things but haven't stated how your magnetic things are any better or more effective or why anyone should waste, er...spend their money on whatever it is that you sell. Do you have a website? Clinical trial results? Have you been tested by the BMJ?

[Magic 9-Ball]

And also Welcome aboard from me. As there has been quite a lot of previous information and discussion about magnetic therapy here, thoroughout Randi's site, and other skeptical websites, be prepared to provide data and/or testing to back up any claims.

F and F write a lot about the effects of the MRI and it's non effect on this or that so tell me what then is the purpose of an MRI scan if nothing in the human body is effected by a magnetic field??????

MRI is not a treatment. It's an imaging device, a far safer alternative to x-rays.

In my humble opinion as long as the products are sold ethically...

And therein is the rub. If you sell your products "ethically", then you can easily show that they do all that's claimed, and do so at a fair price for the consumer, and a fair profit to you. As the others have stated above, what are your claims as you sell your products?

[Tricky]

Just a note on MRIs. They are used specifically because they have no effect on tissues. The magnetic fields are many many times greater than any magnetic products that any "alternative medicine" shop sells, yet they are not used for any theraputic purposes. They do not cure. They do not harm. They do nothing measurable to tissues. Can you imagine the lawsuits if they did?

There may be some damage resulting from the dyes and agents that they use to make MRIs, but this is not a result of the magnetism itself.

As for the ethics of selling these products, well, it is not to bad, ethically speaking, if you sold them in ignorance. However if you are made aware of the fact that they have no theraputic properties and you still sell them for such purposes, then you are selling them unethically.

[The Atheist]

Smart move, I'm going to get into it myself.

Given that we have magnets which help physically, I'm about to start marketing memory aid magnets, which will be worn in a headband.

$39-95 each is a snip, I reckon. How many Gauss do you rckon I should aim for?

[geni]

what if an atomic particle moves through a magnetic field at speed?

Depends whay you mean by an atomic particle.


the Hall Effect tells us that this will generate an electical field


Sometimes.


which in turn increases energy.


Um no. You've just broken the first law of thermodynamics


The iron in blood is paramagnetic even if only slightly


Oxyhemoglobin is diamagnetic


and if you place blood that is clustered together onto a powerful magnet they will separate and I have seen this done within 5 minutes.


Sounds more like normal clotting.


The proton has a positive potential and the electron negative, in blood the iron atom has more electrons that protons


Um no it has an oxidation between 2+ and 4+


which means they are meant to and will stay separated in ideal conditions the same as two like pole magnets.

Meant to? Meant to by who?



Put an electron and proton near each other and they will move closer together.

Depends you will find it quite hard to get an electron to go below an 1s1 orbital.


The theory is that the increase energy created in red blood cells help IMPROVE (not increase 2.) the pick up of oxygen which in turn improves the delivery of oxygen into damaged cells.


Oxygen is is picked up the lungs and atchives near total satuation.

By improving blood flow into damaged cells and tissue

Oxygen pickup and blood flow are two different things which one are you talking about?


help with the removal of carbon dioxide and toxins and waste (lympahtic system 1.) Basically this what we do when we first hurt ourselves-we rub it to generate heat and improved blood flow into the area.

You kinda missed the apply dirrect pressure to the wound to decrease bloodflow bit didn't you?


No one can deny that improving circulation is the key to good health


No. Good sanitation is the key to good health.


And now the crunch 3! F and F write a lot about the effects of the MRI and it's non effect on this or that so tell me what then is the purpose of an MRI scan if nothing in the human body is effected by a magnetic field??????


How much do you know about spin states of protons and precession?


In my humble opinion as long as the products are sold ethically, which is why I strongly believe that the industry should be regulated, and they can be returned for a refund if no benefit is felt (try this with your box of pills or creams at your local chemist) then I can see no harm.


Because it is generaly considered unethical to sell placebos.

[Reno]

pwnd

[Tricky]

One of the things about "magnetic healing" that has always puzzled me is how the purveyors of such things think that it works. Well of course, they think red blood has iron so it can be attracted by a magnet, even if only very slightly (as Magnetic suggests above). Well that might get more oxygen the place where the magnets were, but what does that do? Unless the injury is one that can be healed with more oxygen, that's not going to do a thing. And if it was one that increased oxygen helped, you'd be better off just giving them oxygen to breathe to up their blood-oxygen content.

Meanwhile, most actual healing is done by white blood cells. By concentrating the red blood cells (if it did) then the white blood cells would be crowded out, thus slowing healing. And what if massing red blood cells crowded out the blood fluids, containing platlets and fibrogen for clotting? So it seems that magnets, if they had any affects on the blood, would be damaging things, not healing things. It is very fortunate for the poor suckers who buy the healing magnets that they are ineffective, or they might be harming themselves even more than they are by forsaking proven treatment programs for mumbo jumbo.

[Mongrel]

Smart move, I'm going to get into it myself.

Given that we have magnets which help physically, I'm about to start marketing memory aid magnets, which will be worn in a headband.

$39-95 each is a snip, I reckon. How many Gauss do you rckon I should aim for?

It was on the tip of my tongue, give me a minute... :D

[athon]

I think it is the result of a deficit in science education that so many people who hold a belief in anything first try to support that belief with a reference to a potential mechanism rather than evidence of efficacy supported by repeated, well blinded scientific testing.

All students should have drilled into their minds that science doesn't start with 'how', but rather 'what'.

Athon

[Gord_in_Toronto]

pwnd

Beauty!

[leonAzul]

1. Sellers claim that magnets help flush out toxins.
2. Magnets can increase blood flow.
3. Is there anything in the human body that is affected by magnetic fields, the answer appears to be no!


FWIW, I have also heard claims that properly arrayed magnets can optimize the magnetic field generated by the electrical activity in the body. :boggled:

And then there is this:

http://tinyurl.com/yp6rcc

Peace,

paul

[TheDoLittle]

FWIW, I have also heard claims that properly arrayed magnets can optimize the magnetic field generated by the electrical activity in the body. :boggled:

And then there is this:
---8<---Snip!---



Why is it you can always detect a woo designed webpage after you click the link but before the first image has even loaded?

[LazyPint]

That website is actually painful to look at, and that's before you start reading...

[TheDoLittle]

Gotta love this!!

So people who take Gorgeouspil don't want kids. (You still can have kids. But you just don't want one.) A person who takes Gorgeouspil likes to concentrate his soul within his own body and does not wish to scatter his soul on to other bodies. So making babies is not desirable for people who take Gorgeouspil. Gorgeouspil allows a person to achieve unlimited beauty and unlimited youth. Meanwhile, it stops humans from unnecessary reproductions of more human beings.


I foresee a Stundie nomination in the very near future!!

[NobbyNobbs]

Smart move, I'm going to get into it myself.

Given that we have magnets which help physically, I'm about to start marketing memory aid magnets, which will be worn in a headband.

$39-95 each is a snip, I reckon. How many Gauss do you rckon I should aim for?

As repelling as this sounds, I can certainly see the attraction.

[Olowkow]

FWIW, I have also heard claims that properly arrayed magnets can optimize the magnetic field generated by the electrical activity in the body. :boggled:

And then there is this:

http://tinyurl.com/yp6rcc

Peace,

paul

The page loaded and my first reaction was "Mr. Woo!". I need a dope slap!:D

[Gord_in_Toronto]

You could have mentioned it was Alex Chiu's web site. Then I would not have wasted 20 seconds of my life I will never get back. :mad:

[The Atheist]

I think it is the result of a deficit in science education that so many people who hold a belief in anything first try to support that belief with a reference to a potential mechanism rather than evidence of efficacy supported by repeated, well blinded scientific testing.

All students should have drilled into their minds that science doesn't start with 'how', but rather 'what'.

Athon

Bravo!

Hopefully, in your new job, you can start to redress the balance.

I have a pet theory that it's not so much a deficit in science teaching as a deficit in teaching as a whole. We're giving kids less time in schools than we used to, yet there's far more to learn, so lots gets missed out and the people setting the curriculum are usually the wrong people doing it for the wrong reasons. Individual teachers may be very good, but the system as a whole is failing. I think it's more or less a worldwide issue, with everyone being relatively unhappy with the quality [or lack thereof] in education.

Why is it you can always detect a woo designed webpage after you click the link but before the first image has even loaded?

You're psychic!

I suggest taking classes to enhance your ability.

As repelling as this sounds, I can certainly see the attraction.

:dl:

[athon]

Bravo!

Hopefully, in your new job, you can start to redress the balance.

Mate, you and I both. I'm working on ways to use this position to help primary teachers come up with ways to better equip kids to think scientifically, rather than to see science as a box of trivia to learn and regurgitate.

I have a pet theory that it's not so much a deficit in science teaching as a deficit in teaching as a whole. We're giving kids less time in schools than we used to, yet there's far more to learn, so lots gets missed out and the people setting the curriculum are usually the wrong people doing it for the wrong reasons. Individual teachers may be very good, but the system as a whole is failing. I think it's more or less a worldwide issue, with everyone being relatively unhappy with the quality [or lack thereof] in education.

Diversification of content has been an acknowledged problem, however teachers have always fallen back on pushing a curriculum rather than teaching skills within a context. It's a difficult concept to shift away from; many teachers continue to teach the way they were taught while struggling to implement the new programs and units. Often being incompatible, especially in a 'one-size-fits-all' system, the teachers burn out feeling they have to teach too much, the kids don't learn skills as effectively as they could, and nobody wins.

Worse yet, what is described as a 'success' is the sort of silliness as we see here - somebody who can regurgitate a lot of facts but have no idea where they fit into the scheme of things.

Sorry for the slight derail.

Athon

[Akhenaten]

Smart move, I'm going to get into it myself.

Given that we have magnets which help physically, I'm about to start marketing memory aid magnets, which will be worn in a headband.

$39-95 each is a snip, I reckon. How many Gauss do you rckon I should aim for?

The actual number is unimportant. Just make sure that they're Quantum Gauss™

[The Atheist]

Mate, you and I both. I'm working on ways to use this position to help primary teachers come up with ways to better equip kids to think scientifically, rather than to see science as a box of trivia to learn and regurgitate.

I'm hoping I can push the kids' primary into it this year - their science programs have been simply awful - teachers had completely ignored little things like the McNaught Comet, which might well be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

Back on track, we'll talk about that elsewhere.

The actual number is unimportant. Just make sure that they're Quantum Gauss™

Great thinking!

The sad thing with magnets is that the people selling them have gotten really cunning, sticking them in pure wool underlays*. I spoke to our Ministry of Health a while back and they're well aware that it's all codswallop. As the doc I spoke to said - if you give an old bugger a nice, new woollen under blanket, he's going to be more comfortable and think the magnets are doing it. We are utterly overwhelmed by high-profile former sportspeople advertising this junk.

*Another reason I can't really be bothered going after them is that at least they are providing something for the money, the punters are just paying $300 for a $200 underlay with 10c worth of fridge magnets stuck on it.

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

Smart move, I'm going to get into it myself.

Given that we have magnets which help physically, I'm about to start marketing memory aid magnets, which will be worn in a headband.

$39-95 each is a snip, I reckon. How many Gauss do you rckon I should aim for?

What? You've forgotten already?

How many Gauss have you got? - sorry - I should have written "Quantum". :)

[JJM]

In his excellent book, Voodoo Science, Bob Park writes about this.
http://www.amazon.com/Voodoo-Science-Road-Foolishness-Fraud/dp/0195147103/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201613512&sr=8-1
He points out that most magnets sold for "therapy" are too weak to penetrate the skin. Second, that increased blood flow is indicated by reddening of the skin (erythema). You don't see that.

I have spent a lot of time using NMRs (that technology led to MRI), which have powerful magnets. The magnets are strong-enough to pull metal forceps out of one's shirt-pocket from a couple feet away. Yet, even touching the body of the instrument does not induce erythema.

[LostAngeles]

I know something of this because I get curious about what the hell is being done to me at the doctor's. Let's see if I can explain this back.

An MRI's field basically causes your water molecules to line up along the lines of magnetic force. Application of a particular radio frequency will cause some of them move out of this line and the resulting energy given off is read by the scanner. I think that a Fourier transform is then used to generate the image.

tl;dr: The magnetic field simply sets things up and the radio waves knocks them about, math makes a picture.

[The Atheist]

... MRI's ...

are the death in attacking magnetic therapy products.

Everywhere I've checked, MRI usage instructions prevent pregnant women from using parts of the equipment in the third trimester.

As long as that exists, you have Buckley's (http://www.anu.edu.au/andc/ozwords/Oct%202000/Buckley's.html) of successfully attacking magnetic products.

Whatever question you ask, whatever ploy you use, they just point that out and walk away. The point is completely irrelevant, of course, but imagine how hard it would be to attack psychics if medical science disallowed pregnant women from working in haunted houses. Magnetism and the human body is legislatable..

The end.

Just watch out for the double whammy when I start selling my headbands! I'm going to have the therapeutic properties of magnetism on the brain highlighted alongside the IMPORTANT NOTICE ABOUT EMFs, only to sell one of these personal de-EMF-ers (http://www.raymaster.com/) at the same time!

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

are the death in attacking magnetic therapy products.

Everywhere I've checked, MRI usage instructions prevent pregnant women from using parts of the equipment in the third trimester.

As long as that exists, you have Buckley's (http://www.anu.edu.au/andc/ozwords/Oct%202000/Buckley's.html) of successfully attacking magnetic products.

Whatever question you ask, whatever ploy you use, they just point that out and walk away. The point is completely irrelevant, of course, but imagine how hard it would be to attack psychics if medical science disallowed pregnant women from working in haunted houses. Magnetism and the human body is legislatable..

The end.

Just watch out for the double whammy when I start selling my headbands! I'm going to have the therapeutic properties of magnetism on the brain highlighted alongside the IMPORTANT NOTICE ABOUT EMFs, only to sell one of these personal de-EMF-ers (http://www.raymaster.com/) at the same time!

Are you looking for a European agent, BTW?

[The Atheist]

Are you looking for a European agent, BTW?

Hell yes, especially in Germany.

As the Raymaster link shows, there's no old crap that Euros won't buy.

I reckon this is a sure-fire winner. Honestly, I've got my Chinese bloke getting some costs done for me.

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

Ok -you got it!

I'lll wait for the "evidence"... :)

You'll need a US agent as well - they're even worse than Europeans, if the Interweb is anything to go by. :)

[YouBelieveWHAT?]

Perhaps that ought to read "better than Europeans", under the circumstances :)

[magnetic]

Wow and ouch! Too many questions.
Firstly a lot of you have picked up on things I never said and/didn't meant to imply and my grammar, sorry I am not going to spend time on spell checker.
I was not knocking the BMJ! Some of you may have bought a magnetic therapy product or know someone who has, based on the information published in the BMJ. I set out to inform that the information regarding the type of magnets used in the trial is not the same strength as used in most cheap jewellery. By saying that I attempt to point out that even a respected publication can mislead.
MRI??? I never said that an MRI was a "treatment" just that MRI was used as evidence to disprove that a magnetic field had no affect (happy now with my grammar) on the human body. If the body contains water and water is stimulated by an MRI then there IS something in the human body that is affected by a magnetic field. I was just making a point about misleading claims.
Other comments to answer: Quantum magnets. I never said that. The Quantum is the name of a product.
If you think that putting a magnet on your head will improve memory then good luck to you.
Re the reaction to ease pain by rubbing. Compression?? bang your elbow then compress it and see if it feels better. Again I was just making an example of an everyday reaction that we all do even to our children. I wasn't being specific to a particular type of injury.
If a magnet is placed on the skin why should it cause vascular dilation, or Erythema?
Again this is another claim made by sceptics that magnets can increase blood flow. If you have healthy blood flow to the surface of the skin then placing a magnet in that area will not increase which is why I use "improve" as in: if it is needed.
We can list all the things that will improve our health I just mentioned blood flow as one example because I believe that it is a main factor. No oxygen we die, blood carries oxygen, blood contains iron.
Oxygen therapy is recognised as heplful is speeding up the repair of injuries in sportsmen and women.
No I can't prove it! I neither have the facilities nor the funds required to conduct a clinical trial but all the trails that have been conducted have shown that a benefit was seen, no matter how flawed the trail was.
Ethics. Again I suppose I shouldn't have used that particular word "sell". I beleive in what I do because every day I get calls and/or letters from people who tell me that it has made a difference to someones life. Are they lying to me? are they fooling themselves? because I would like to know what physical change made it happen or was it in the mind? because I don't offer incentives for comments or feed back so something has happened.
I am not a scientist but I have reasearched as best I can, which is better than most, the information which have been published by my peers. I have tried to explain what I believe to be the reaction based on what I have read and seen e.g. Rouleau (not a clot) formation separate within 5 minutes after exposed to one of my products. Did I imagine this? Did the guy who did the experiment lie to me or did he not show astonishment at the result?
I explain what I beleive to be the reason and I have had more than one comment that "it makes sense" and this again from my peers perhaps I am not good at explaining in text as I am verbally???
Once I have laid out my stall, so to speak it is now up to whoever wants to try, nobody is forced to buy, but having done so I will back you up 100% and if it fails to have an affect then I offer a refund. I do not make any medical claims but the results I have witnessed and continue to witness re-affirm my belief that something is happening and if there is more to it than I am able to explain then so what!
I am happy helping people with their problems and the main point I set out to make is that some magnetic therpay products can work better than others due to the difference in strength not purely on the fact that it is magnetic.
Tell the young 12 year old with muscular dystrophy who after 5 hours could hold a tooth brush and turn the tap for the first time in his life! This is NOT a medical claim but a call I got from a tearful mother who was so greatfull that she had to let me know and who's surgeon on seeing the improvement cancelled a series of injections and postponed corrective surgery "just to see how things are in couple of months". I do not make this up but something happened and if putting a magnet on a childs wrist can make that child have more mobility in his hands and fingers then what possible harm can it do? and knowing "how" won't make it work any better.
I am ethical because I do what I do to make a difference, any financial reward comes from the results, otherwise I wouldn't do what I do.
Trying to score points on bad grammer or misquoting me or agreeing with me then not!
E.g. There are more electrons than protons with the iron atom is a fact! as to what percentage? why does that matter?
A good example is a recent comment by Rose Shapiro an author of a soon to be published book on Quack medicine is Quote: "Those "medical researchers" are wrong. The iron in blood is repelled not attracted by magnets" end quote (my inverted comma's)
She then goes on to quote the affects of an MRI scan as evidence. Whats that all about? One minute there is no reaction on blood by a magnetic field then blood can be polarizes into be repelled by a particular pole of a magnet?
I have gone on long enough but one question, how many of you out there have tried it and what was it?
Ray

[Pup]

If a magnet is placed on the skin why should it cause vascular dilation, or Erythema?
Again this is another claim made by sceptics that magnets can increase blood flow. If you have healthy blood flow to the surface of the skin then placing a magnet in that area will not increase which is why I use "improve" as in: if it is needed.

Well, there's a testable claim, if you can predict in advance when an area needs increased blood flow and when it's healthy.

Or is the need defined by what the magnet supposedly does? In other words, if you place a magnet on an area and blood flow increases, it must have been needed, and if it doesn't then it wasn't needed?

[Ladewig]

No I can't prove it! I neither have the facilities nor the funds required to conduct a clinical trial but all the trails that have been conducted have shown that a benefit was seen, no matter how flawed the trail was.

Here we have the root of the problem. Your observation is akin to saying my favorite sports team must be good - they have won every game no matter how much they cheated. To determine effectiveness, one must look only at trials that have no flaws. For instance, one possible flaw is to use refrigerator magnets instead of powerful magnets. If a trial did that and showed positive results then it is very likely that people are reporting improvement despite there being no effective means of healing.



Ethics. Again I suppose I shouldn't have used that particular word "sell". I beleive in what I do because every day I get calls and/or letters from people who tell me that it has made a difference to someones life. Are they lying to me?

no

are they fooling themselves?

Yes! Eighty years ago, people sold radioactive water as a cure-all. There were hundreds and thousands of people who swore to its effectiveness. Today there are millions of people who write letters extoling the value of homeopathic remedies, but these people are fooling themselves as well. Why do you find it hard to believe that people fool themselves when it comes to alternative medicine?



I am not a scientist but I have reasearched as best I can, which is better than most, the information which have been published by my peers.

But if your peers have no idea how to construct an effective double blind test, then all their published research is flawed to the point of being inconclusive.

[Ryan O'Dine]

Ray,

Hypothetical question. If you were shown that your product was working entirely due to the placebo effect and had nothing to do with magnetism, would you continue selling it?

If so, would you also continue making the same claims about it that you now make?

[Cuddles]

published by my peers.

Who exactly are your peers? Medical researchers should be published in medical journals, yet you criticise the BMJ and admit that you are not any kind of scientist or researcher. "Peers" would imply that they are your equals. Why should we trust people who don't actually know what they are talking about?

E.g. There are more electrons than protons with the iron atom is a fact! as to what percentage? why does that matter?

No there aren't. If you can't get something as basic as this right, why should we believe anything else you say?

A good example is a recent comment by Rose Shapiro an author of a soon to be published book on Quack medicine is Quote: "Those "medical researchers" are wrong. The iron in blood is repelled not attracted by magnets" end quote (my inverted comma's)
She then goes on to quote the affects of an MRI scan as evidence. Whats that all about? One minute there is no reaction on blood by a magnetic field then blood can be polarizes into be repelled by a particular pole of a magnet?

Again, you completely fail to understand what you are talking about. MRIs do not do anything to the iron in your blood. We know that magnets don't repel or attract the iron in your blood because, among other things, if they did you would die when you had an MRI. This is extremely basic stuff, and you really should try to learn a lot more about it before trying to defend your claims. Hopefully, when you have learned some more you won't make those claims any longer.

[magnetic]

No wonder there are plenty of sceptics about when you see sites like Chiu!!! I have never heard of or seen this site. Is this guy serious and I bet he's in the US?
This is the whole point I am trying to make.
There have been double blind clinical trials using magnets and they were all shown to help relieve pain of one sort or another the only problem was not whether it worked, it as whether the wearer new it was a magnet.
My other point has been lost by the shear volume of negativity and that is clearly displayed in these answers and that is picking on the weakest point of an argument or as we have seen in Chiu's website, ie riduculous claims is not proof against that argument.
I have noticed that no one has agreed with me that mentioning an MRI scanner as evidence that magnetic fields cannot possible have an affect on the human body is false.
Has anyone read the BMJ article? DId you know that the magnet used in the trial was not a bracelet? Did you now that the newsaper article and images were not the products used in the trial? Imagine someone who read that article and then nipped down to Poundland and bought a bracelet and it didn't work, suprise suprise, IT IS NOT THE SAME MAGNET!!! These are points I was trying to make, they are misleading and these are the ONLY one's I know about. Judging the response I have had you must have read a lot more and if you have then no wonder there are so many sceptics
The MRI is a ploy. Most people reading articles in the newspaper that defunk a therapy will believe in most of what is being written especially when it gets technical or published by a respectable journal so they are as guilty as the Chiu's of this world.
How many of you believe that mobile phones are 100% safe. If you are unsure you will still use it because they are convenient and I bet you will argue that they are safe because there are still doubts. "Doubts, unsure, more research needed, there is some evidence, children are more in danger". I bet your child has a mobile, but instead of controlling their usage as there is no clear evidence! carry on.
I am only making a point here so don't ask me for evidence on mobile phone radiation.
I am with you all on most of the claims made but those of you that heve seen my site will see I make no claims!
If a magnet is going to work it needs to be strong enough, most products I have seen over the years and still do wouldn't pick up a paper clip or stick to the fridge. I offer a much stronger magnet in a product that is versatile and comfortable and cheaper than any of my competitors and I am not involved in Multi-Level Marketing.
There is no shame in agreeing in some of what I have said so stay sceptical and healthy.
Ray

[drapier]

Why is the inability to write in paragraphs such a strong indicator of a belief in the pseudo-scientific or the paranormal?

[JoeEllison]

Smart move, I'm going to get into it myself.

Given that we have magnets which help physically, I'm about to start marketing memory aid magnets, which will be worn in a headband.

$39-95 each is a snip, I reckon. How many Gauss do you rckon I should aim for?

Call then "homeopathic" and they don't actually have to be even slightly magnetic, do they? You can just put a magnet in the box with the headbands, shake it a few times, and they should all be equally effective. :D

[Spiro]

Ray,

Mobile phones put out electroMAGNETIC radiation. Why should that make them dangerous? According to you people should benefit from getting a shot of magnetism to the body.

[The Atheist]

Call then "homeopathic" and they don't actually have to be even slightly magnetic, do they? You can just put a magnet in the box with the headbands, shake it a few times, and they should all be equally effective. :D

That's bloody good too! Think of the saving on magnets. Probably, washing the headbands in water containing magnets would work even better.

[Ryan O'Dine]

I am with you all on most of the claims made but those of you that heve seen my site will see I make no claims!

You're selling a product about which you make no claims? Why sell it if you're not claiming it does anything? I'm genuinely confused.

There is no shame in agreeing in some of what I have said so stay sceptical and healthy.
Ray

We all agree that MRI's affect something in the body. That's a far cry from concluding that specific magnetic fields have specific therapeutic effects.

A statically charged balloon makes my hair stand on end. Can I therefore conclude that a statically charged balloon will relieve the symptoms of muscular dystrophy?

And the BJM conclusion was that the study could not distinguish the effects from placebo:
BMJ. 2004 Dec 18;329(7480):1450-4. College Surgery, Cullompton, Devon EX15 1TG
CONCLUSION:
Pain from osteoarthritis of the hip and knee decreases when a wearing magnetic bracelet. It is uncertain whether this response is due to specific or non-specific (placebo) effects.
http://www.raysahelian.com/magnetictherapy.html

So, if you found that your product was basically a placebo, would you continue selling it?

[JoeEllison]

That's bloody good too! Think of the saving on magnets. Probably, washing the headbands in water containing magnets would work even better.Or, you could just make sure that the forklift putting the boxes on the trucks drives over a magnet on its way?

[Nucular]

Hi magnetic, welcome :)
There have been double blind clinical trials using magnets and they were all shown to help relieve pain of one sort or another the only problem was not whether it worked, it as whether the wearer new it was a magnet.

Why did it matter whether the wearer knew they were wearing a magnet? It sounds a little like you're describing a negative double-blind trial. It would help if you could give some references.

How many of you believe that mobile phones are 100% safe. If you are unsure you will still use it because they are convenient and I bet you will argue that they are safe because there are still doubts. "Doubts, unsure, more research needed, there is some evidence, children are more in danger". I bet your child has a mobile, but instead of controlling their usage as there is no clear evidence! carry on.
I am only making a point here so don't ask me for evidence on mobile phone radiation.

I'm not sure I understand the point - does it boil down to 'you should use magnets just in case they work, in the same way that you should not use mobile phones just in case they're harmful'? Or is it about burden of proof?

I am with you all on most of the claims made but those of you that heve seen my site will see I make no claims!

Like Ryan above, I'm also genuinely confused by your statement here. Did you really mean to say that you make no claims at all for your product? Why therefore would I buy it?

If a magnet is going to work it needs to be strong enough, most products I have seen over the years and still do wouldn't pick up a paper clip or stick to the fridge. I offer a much stronger magnet in a product that is versatile and comfortable and cheaper than any of my competitors and I am not involved in Multi-Level Marketing.

And what does your stronger magnet do?

You sound like an intelligent chap, magnetic, and you've come over to this site, which as you are aware is populated largely by sceptics... that's pretty brave, and I think you deserve some kudos for that! Like others, I hope you stick around.

[Nucular]

Double post.

[Asolepius]

Ray, let's be clear. Are you claiming that your magnets have health benefits? If you are, then please provide the evidence. No, your tearful mothers are not evidence, otherwise we would allow drugs to be marketed on the same basis. (Damn, I just remembered that the UK government does allow homeopathy to be marketed in much the same way:confused:) Anyway, you must understand that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. All the science we know about says that magnets are unlikely to have a health benefit. This doesn't mean they can't, it just means that we have to be extra careful about the evidence. There are no absolutes in medicine.

You complain about all the negativity. It's not really that, it's just your inability to provide convincing evidence. That, and your misquoting of scientific facts (eg protons and electrons - not even GCSE science). Look, it simply isn't good enough for you to say "I'm not a scientist", as if that absolves you from providing evidence. Try that in a court of law and see how far it gets you.

I have gone on longer than I intended, and really it's not for your benefit, as I know you'll take not a scrap of notice. It's for uncommitted browsers of the forum, for whom I hope my outpouring will provide a bit of amusement.

Oh, nearly forgot. You said at one stage that you are not making claims. If that's the case, then there is no need for you to bother us again.

ETA - sorry, that last bit was unnecessary. I should really say, if you are not making claims, then stop promoting your product as if you are. If you are genuinely interested in looking at the evidence, then you are welcome. Or even if you just want to know what evidence is.

[Cuddles]

I have noticed that no one has agreed with me that mentioning an MRI scanner as evidence that magnetic fields cannot possible have an affect on the human body is false.

That's because you are wrong about it. No-one claims that magnetic fields can't have an effect, what we are saying is that they do not have the effects you claim. An MRI works by exciting protons, specifically those in water molecules, with a magnetic field and then reading the radiation given off when they fall back to a lower state. Obviously this is rather simplified, but the point is that at no point is anything attracted to or repelled by the magnets. And the thing that makes MRI such a good example is that the magnets involved are orders or magnitude more powerful than anything you can get in a bracelet.

If magnets could do anything to the iron in your blood, an MRI would do it a whole load more, and would basically suck all your blood out of your body. Since this doesn't happen, we know that any effect must be, at most, incredibly weak, and that since the really strong magents in MRIs don't do anything, really weak magnets, like the ones you sell, can't possibly do anything either.

How many of you believe that mobile phones are 100% safe.

Oh, they're certainly not 100% safe. Someone threw one at me once, and I had a bruise for at least a couple of days.

I am only making a point here so don't ask me for evidence on mobile phone radiation.

So what point are you trying to make exactly? You don't know anything about phones or radiation and you have no evidence, but... what?

[Psiload]

Well, folks... I think it's safe to say that we've got ourselves a runner.

Au revoir, magnetic... we hardly knew ye.

[Nucular]

Hmmm. Perhaps we repelled him in some way. We were, after all, poles apart.

[Asolepius]

I don't think this domain suited him. We were all orientated the wrong way.

[Blondin]

MRI has no effect?

Well my friend's cousin had to have an MRI scan on his abdomen and he said that ever since then, when ever he gets an erection, it always points north!

:)

[LostAngeles]

****. I was going to ask him if yesterday's MRI messed up my energy flow resulting in this flu.

[LostAngeles]

****. I was going to ask him if yesterday's MRI messed up my energy flow resulting in this flu.

[magnetic]

Re hypothetical question. No I wouldn't! and I would gladly supply product for such an experiment or trial.
I don't make specific claims, I am not allowed to by law and can only if the results have been seen in a particular trial.
The problem with trials, as I see it, is that it has to be for a particular problem. However the causes are difficult to determine and it is the cause that is the problem.
I have seen people with neck and shoulder pain and headaches that as far as they know was not caused by a particular injury but have been helped with a magnetic pad placed on the lower back. The bad back that has now gone by altering posture has now transfered the problem further up which also lead to the headaches. It's the back that is the cause and treating someone for persistant headaches is not treating anything

When talking to someone who is interested I always ask "what is the cause" and go from there. Some people don't realise that if you hit your head against a brick wall (I know how that feels now that I have got involved with you lot!) it will hurt and that if they put a magnet on and hit their head again against a brick wall it will still hurt!
Unless you remove the cause the problem will NOT go away and all doctors do is pump you full of painkillers and someone tell me that that is safe and healthy and not expensive in the long term????

In my world I do what I do because it has made a difference to a lot of people and yes that tearfull mother made me feel good and perhaps pissed of the doctor who hadn't made a difference in all the time he or she has been treating the little boy.
Don't blame me for those who put the trials together, I offered but was too late and the company that they did use have a logo plastered all over the product and how do you remove the detection of a magnetic field in a product anyway? Put the product trialed near a metal object, object sticks to the magnet, trial flawed!
The problem is with sceptics is that you have been reading too many outrageous articles and refuse to admit that maybe there is something happening but because no has spent thousands of pounds or dollars to show what is actually is happening you find it difficult to accept and it seems that your sceptism is what you live for and missing the bigger picture.
I don't give a damn if those who havn't tried it for thenselves jump up and down in blickered ignorance just for the sake of it shouting " it can't possibly work, but I don't know why". I challenge any one to stand with me at an exhibition and call someone a liar who has felt relief from wearing one of my products and at the same time try to convince them that it couldn't possibly work. A simple trial for you to do ask someone who by wearing a magnet has helped and tell them to take it off!
I'm happy in my world and electrons do spin within an externally applied magnetic field.
This spin increases energy, this increased energy helps separate red blood cells, separated red blood cells which have increased energy potential will absorbe oxygen more efficiently than red blood cells stacked together AND will pass through a cappillary (stacked blood cells won't). Now tell me that an improved blood supply to the site of pain as well as the whole body will not improve with not only pain relief and but general health and well being.
Does it matter how or why? But in asking me why does the electron need to spin or why wasn't it doing it before then I don't know but then not many people do.
Ask Rose Shapiro who wrote an article in the Daily Mail last month which will be included in her new book, Suckers, what she means when she says:
"But those "medical researchers" are wrong. The iron in blood is repelled, not attracted by magnets. If magnets had any real effect on our blood, then no human would survive the enormous magnetic fields generated during an MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) scan". End quote.
Forget the bit about MRI we've done that what does she mean by "blood is repelled"? and this is "evidence" from a fellow sceptic! How many of you have taken the time to comment on this?
Oh and stop pulling me up on grammar and paragraphs you get my point regardless and I am busy!
Ray

[Asolepius]

You are not too busy to write another long discourse that just goes over the same ground. But I must pull you up on what scepticism is. We are not saying it doesn't work because it's implausible (even though that's true). We are saying that it hasn't been shown to work using scientific tests. You seem to be denying science. You are wrong about clinical trials, a field in which I have worked for 30 years. There is no need to know the cause of a disease in order to test a treatment for it. All you have to do is design a test for the claimed effect. You are right that it's difficult to provide a magnet placebo, but trials have been done with different strength magnets and there was no difference.

We are not going to agree on your central claim, which is based on anecdotes from your customers. The value of anecdotes is limited to providing justification for doing proper trials. On their own they are useless.

I said before that the ball is in your court, not ours. You have to provide the evidence, and your customers are not it. I for one am perfectly happy to tell them they are being misled. I won't of course say they have not had an improvement in their condition - it's quite reasonable to accept that they have. The key point is that there is no way of knowing that the magnet was responsible. You really have to go away and digest that point.

[Ladewig]

I don't give a damn if those who havn't tried it for thenselves jump up and down in blickered ignorance just for the sake of it shouting " it can't possibly work, but I don't know why". I challenge any one to stand with me at an exhibition and call someone a liar who has felt relief from wearing one of my products and at the same time try to convince them that it couldn't possibly work. A simple trial for you to do ask someone who by wearing a magnet has helped and tell them to take it off!

Yes, let's imagine what would happen at that type of exhibition. What would happen if we gave refrigerator magnets to these people with success stories and we told them: "please try these new magnets - they have been re-calibrated to work specifically on humans - take them home and try them for free." If these people came back with even stronger endorsements, would you stand there and call them a liar after they felt relief from a magnet that you say couldn't possibly work?

[Ryan O'Dine]

Re hypothetical question. No I wouldn't! and I would gladly supply product for such an experiment or trial.
I assume you’re answering my question about selling your product if you found it was a placebo. Thank you. I’m glad you wouldn’t sell it in that case.

Here’s the problem, though. You’ve provided no compelling reason to believe it’s anything other than a placebo. You’ve provided anecdotes (which any good placebo will produce), voodoo science (which harms your case, if anything), and a lot of excuses for not going to trials.

It’s not up to us to prove you’ve got a placebo. It’s up to you to prove you don’t. Until then, you have no right to say your products work beyond placebo. For this reason, by your own admission, you shouldn’t be selling it.

I don't make specific claims, I am not allowed to by law and can only if the results have been seen in a particular trial.


You do make specific claims. Both medical...
I have seen people with neck and shoulder pain and headaches that as far as they know was not caused by a particular injury but have been helped with a magnetic pad placed on the lower back.


and scientific...
...electrons do spin within an externally applied magnetic field.
This spin increases energy, this increased energy helps separate red blood cells, separated red blood cells which have increased energy potential will absorbe oxygen more efficiently than red blood cells stacked together AND will pass through a cappillary (stacked blood cells won't)


Asolepius addressed the following...
The problem with trials, as I see it, is that it has to be for a particular problem. However the causes are difficult to determine and it is the cause that is the problem.
I’ll just add that we don’t know the causes of lots diseases for which we have helpful therapies that were vetted in rigorous double blind trials.

Unless you remove the cause the problem will NOT go away and all doctors do is pump you full of painkillers and someone tell me that that is safe and healthy and not expensive in the long term????
The possible danger and expense of a standard treatment does not mean that your treatment is better. You actually have to show it’s better.

In my world I do what I do because it has made a difference to a lot of people and yes that tearfull mother made me feel good and perhaps pissed of the doctor who hadn't made a difference in all the time he or she has been treating the little boy.
It’s a great feeling to think you’re helping people, and I’m sure that’s all you really want to do. However, you’ve agreed you wouldn’t sell your product if it was a placebo, and you can’t seem to show that it isn’t. If you’re being honest with yourself, your conclusion should be that you need to demonstrate you’re not pedaling a placebo before you sell it.

Don't blame me for those who put the trials together, I offered but was too late and the company that they did use have a logo plastered all over the product and how do you remove the detection of a magnetic field in a product anyway? Put the product trialed near a metal object, object sticks to the magnet, trial flawed!
You admit that you haven’t done any trials. You have anecdotes and some misunderstood and garbled science with appeals to authority. Nothing you’ve posted shows that you’re selling anything but a placebo. By your own admission, you shouldn’t be selling it.

The problem is with sceptics is that you have been reading too many outrageous articles and refuse to admit that maybe there is something happening but because no has spent thousands of pounds or dollars to show what is actually is happening you find it difficult to accept and it seems that your sceptism is what you live for and missing the bigger picture.
Attack us all you wish. It doesn’t show you’re selling something other than a placebo.

I don't give a damn if those who havn't tried it for thenselves jump up and down in blickered ignorance just for the sake of it shouting " it can't possibly work, but I don't know why".
Not what we’re doing. We’re saying, show us it isn’t a placebo. We’d love to see the evidence.

I challenge any one to stand with me at an exhibition and call someone a liar who has felt relief from wearing one of my products and at the same time try to convince them that it couldn't possibly work. A simple trial for you to do ask someone who by wearing a magnet has helped and tell them to take it off!
Maybe you don’t know what a placebo is. Here’s a Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo).

Forget the bit about MRI we've done that what does she mean by "blood is repelled"? and this is "evidence" from a fellow sceptic! How many of you have taken the time to comment on this?

You call an appeal to authority “evidence.” It simply isn’t. Most of all, it doesn’t show that your product is anything beyond a placebo.



I’m willing to believe you’re an honest guy who simply doesn’t understand science. You’re certainly not the only one. The problem is, you’re taking people’s money here. A truly honest person, when shown they may be mistaken, would take a step back and really assess their position.

You need to understand how placebos work (it’s an entire field of study unto itself). You need to get a handle on the science you’re bandying about. Most of all, you need to stop taking people’s money until you’re actually certain -- and can prove it -- that you’re selling what you think you’re selling.

I should charge for my advice, I know. ;)

[Locknar]

Wow and ouch! Too many questions.
Firstly a lot of you have picked up on things I never said and/didn't meant to imply and my grammar, sorry I am not going to spend time on spell checker.
You spend all that time writing rather long winded posts, and can't spare an extra minute to spell check? To funny….

Exactly what type of “magnetic therapy devices” do you sell? What claims/benefits form use to do you make about these devices?

In my humble opinion as long as the products are sold ethically, which is why I strongly believe that the industry should be regulated, and they can be returned for a refund if no benefit is felt (try this with your box of pills or creams at your local chemist) then I can see no harm.
So to be clear, you see no harm in scamming folks, or making false claims about the “woo woo” that you sell, as long as you do it ethically?

[Nucular]

can't spare an extra minute to spell check? To funny….

Oops... ;)

[Cuddles]

I don't give a damn if those who havn't tried it for thenselves jump up and down in blickered ignorance just for the sake of it shouting " it can't possibly work, but I don't know why".

Which, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, is not what anyone is doing. We don't really care that it can't possibly work, although that is in fact true. What we are actually telling you is that it doesn't work. You yourself appear to agree with this, since you happily state that you make no claims and have never done any tests.


you get my point regardless and I am busy!

As far as I can tell your point is that you know you are scamming people and you don't care.

[Pup]

A simple trial for you to do ask someone who by wearing a magnet has helped and tell them to take it off!

You do understand that that's not a trial to prove whether the magnet works, don't you? It's a trial to see how much the person believes it works. You could test any lucky charm the same way.

How about a simple double-blind trial where half the people are given an identical-seeming non-magnetic item, and half are given a magnetic one, and then asked afterwards about improvement?

[Madalch]

I'm happy in my world and electrons do spin within an externally applied magnetic field.
This spin increases energy, this increased energy helps separate red blood cells, separated red blood cells which have increased energy potential will absorbe oxygen more efficiently than red blood cells stacked together AND will pass through a cappillary (stacked blood cells won't).

Electrons don't spin. They have a characteristic that is -called- spin, for purely historical reasons, but the electrons themselves are not spinning. Placing an unpaired electron in a magnetic field causes it to align either with (decreasing its energy) or against the magnetic field (increasing its energy).

However, all the electrons in a diamagnetic compound like hemoglobin are paired, which means that the two electrons sharing an orbital will have their spins aligned in opposite directions regardless of what external magnetic field is applied.

Even if the magnetic field were to increase the energy of the electrons of a substance, how would that translate to separating red blood cells? Do you have any idea of the size difference between an electron and a red blood cell? That's like trying to shake the entire solar system by setting forest fires on Earth.

Ask Rose Shapiro who wrote an article in the Daily Mail last month which will be included in her new book, Suckers, what she means when she says:
"But those "medical researchers" are wrong. The iron in blood is repelled, not attracted by magnets. If magnets had any real effect on our blood, then no human would survive the enormous magnetic fields generated during an MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) scan". End quote.
Like I said, hemoglobin (along with nearly every other molecule in the human body) is diamagnetic, and thus weakly repelled by a magnetic field.

This won't make much of an effect in the magnets used in an MRI, but if you use a stronger magnet, you can see the results on a frog here:
http://www.hfml.ru.nl/levitation-movies.html

[Lanzy]

I would also like a link, (I know your posts are low, but you've certainly used enough words by now) to "any" of the double blind studies used to prove magnets of any kind actually work. I have some severe cronic pain and would love relief without the daily pills I take. However, I tried magnets, nada, nothing, no relief. Of course maybe I haven't tried "yours". Placebos don't seem to work for me, wish they did.

Hint: Smaller posts, raise your count.

[magnetic]

Again, you completely fail to understand what you are talking about. MRIs do not do anything to the iron in your blood. We know that magnets don't repel or attract the iron in your blood because, among other things, if they did you would die when you had an MRI. This is extremely basic stuff, and you really should try to learn a lot more about it before trying to defend your claims. Hopefully, when you have learned some more you won't make those claims any longer.
Hello Cuddles,
Correction my "betters" not peers, happy?
You are missing my point:
Read my lips, I have never said and DO NOT claim that MRI's have an affect on blood but MRI's are used as evidence by some scientific researchers and authors to show that magnetic therapy could not possibly work.
It is scientific fact that there are more electrons than protons within the iron atom in blood!
It was an author that said blood would "in fact" repel within a magnetic field NOt me!
The BMJ NOT me published a "magnetic bracelet was used" it was not a bracelet that was used! To clarify: a bracelet as a piece of jewellery worn around the wrist or ankle and can either be a series of links joined together or a bangle which is solid and can be open ended (torque). Both are jewellery and 99% on the market contain small multiple magnets.
The item used in the trial was neither. It was a wrist strap, not unlike a watch with a much larger, single magnet. To use the term bracelet was missleading and that is the point I was making, you should read what I say more closely.

1) Fingold and Flamm, scientific researchers, use the MRI as evidence against the therapy and say that "fact: there is nothing in the human body that is affected by a magnetic field" and yet in these replies you can read time and time again that statement is wrong.
2) Rose Shapiro,author and sceptic as evidence claims the blood would "in fact" repels within a magnetic field!!!!
3) The BMJ is not clear on what was used in the trail and misslead the public into potentially purchasing something completely different which are unlikely to create any benefit to the wearer which ultimately only fuels the sceptic in us all.

If the sceptics can't agree on the argument against and cannot get their own facts right, then it's not me that ought to learn more about what they are talking about.
In many ways you are doing just the same because if some just happened on your reply without going back to my original statement they too would be misslead into thinking I said those things when we both know I did no such thing.
I hope this clarifies.
Ray

[Ladewig]

Two quick questions:

Will you respond to all the other recent posts?

Do you use the magnets yourself?

[magnetic]

Hi Lanzy,
Your dog looks just like one of mine, great breed. Parson?
I know what you mean about number of words, it is a fault of mine trying to prove a point as I am aware of all the arguments against so I try to answer them all, before I get the question.
What did you use and what is the problem, if you don't mind me asking that is?
Ray

[Madalch]

Read my lips, I have never said and DO NOT claim that MRI's have an affect on blood but MRI's are used as evidence by some scientific researchers and authors to show that magnetic therapy could not possibly work.
You claim that your little magnets have an effect on blood; it has been shown that much more powerful magnets do not have suh an effect.

It is scientific fact that there are more electrons than protons within the iron atom in blood!
It is not a fact of any sort. It is wrong. The iron in hemoglobin is in the +2 oxidation state; so it has two fewer electrons than protons. Those electrons are part of the rest of the hemoglobin molecule, which has no overall charge. Thus the hemoglobin molecule (including the iron) has exactly as many electrons as protons.

It was an author that said blood would "in fact" repel within a magnetic field NOt me!
Yes, but to have a measurable effect, you'd need an extremely powerful magnet- not the little ones found in magnetic bracelets or talismans.

[Locknar]

You claim that your little magnets have an effect on blood; it has been shown that much more powerful magnets do not have suh an effect.Gotta wonder...let's enter Fantasy Land for a moment and say this is true; magnets (such as those that Magnetic sells) have an effect on blood.

What happens if you wear these magnets to long, blood clots?

What about when they are removed after prolonged wear...all that "bad stuff" that has bunched up around the magnet is suddenly released back into circulation - yikes!

Now leaving Fantasy Land…please remain seated until we’ve come to a full stop, luggage in the overheard compartments may have shifted during our trip so use caution when opening.

[Ladewig]

Gotta wonder...let's enter Fantasy Land for a moment and say this is true; magnets (such as those that Magnetic sells) have an effect on blood.

What happens if you wear these magnets too long, blood clots?



No. In the opening post, Magnetic said that powerful magnets repel blood:


Firstly they accept that "moving magnetic fields can create electrical fields that can have some effect on living tissue" what if an atomic particle moves through a magnetic field at speed? the Hall Effect tells us that this will generate an electical field which in turn increases energy. The iron in blood is paramagnetic even if only slightly and if you place blood that is clustered together onto a powerful magnet they will separate and I have seen this done within 5 minutes.
The proton has a positive potential and the electron negative, in blood the iron atom has more electrons that protons which means they are meant to and will stay separated in ideal conditions the same as two like pole magnets.

[magnetic]

Hi Madalch,
"Magnets sold for these purposes are relatively weak, and their magnetic fields do not extend significantly through the skin; even if there was a plausible therapeutic effect of such magnets, they wouldn’t affect muscles or joints"! end quote and often quoted.
True, most magnets sold are very weak and the above quote has been used before but the magnets I use will put a magnetic field through and out the other side of my wrist thus exposing fast flowing arterial blood and the iron within to a "strong" magnetic field. I accept that this field is getting progressively weaker and it one of the reasons why I believe that soem products work better than others and why some trials are not proven.
Your thoughts? and thanks for the lack of sarcasm.
ray

[magnetic]

this was done in the BMJ published trial.

[Locknar]

No. In the opening post, Magnetic said that powerful magnets repel blood:Oh, silly me *lol*

To be honest, I'm still stuck on the "I ethically scam people" (my paraphrase) aspect of the OP.

[wahrheit]

Hmmm. Perhaps we repelled him in some way. We were, after all, poles apart.

I don't think this domain suited him. We were all orientated the wrong way.

Are you the guys writing those pun threads at reddit? :)

Your thoughts?

I think that selling magnets to people with health issues is a scam, no matter if you do it knowingly or out of ignorance.

and thanks for the lack of sarcasm.

You're welcome.

[magnetic]

Which, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, is not what anyone is doing. We don't really care that it can't possibly work, although that is in fact true. What we are actually telling you is that it doesn't work. You yourself appear to agree with this, since you happily state that you make no claims and have never done any tests.

Read my lips; "I cannot legally make any claims" so I don't.
It is not a FACT that it doesn't work it just hasn't been proven either way. If it can be proven then I would give up. Tell my dog that it doesn't work and that it is all in the mind and the thousands of other animals that use them, or is it the owners seeing what they want to believe?
The lack of a clinical trial is not proof against effacy! This hardle me admitting that I am wrong about what I believe.
It seems that the biggest hangup is that people are making money out of helping people help themselves. If putting a relatively inexpensive (in my case) product on the wrist makes a difference to someones bad back then why should you worry!
I too agree that there is plenty of rubbish said and sold which is why I try to stay away from all the claims made and let a person decide for themselves.



As far as I can tell your point is that you know you are scamming people and you don't care.
As far as you can tell???? I was talking about the nit picking on my use of paragraphs and grammar, read my last line again and then say sorry! I am not scamming people, I do what I do because it makes a difference and as long as I get feedback that it has made a difference to someones life I will continue to do so. Only my concience will prevail if it absoultely proven that it cannot possibly work, then I will give up. Until then just as it is difficult to prove that it does work I will carry on. Do not judge me against your own values or of those who have upset you in the past. I had hoped at least that I had put across my integrity even if some or all of you think I am misguided that does make me immoral in what I do.
I read once: "A person who has passion that overides logic can be trusted on his principles. Only a fool values logic above feeling"

[magnetic]

Blood is moving so why should it "clot" within a magnetic field and why would "stuff" be held with a magnetic field?
Another example of a bad example of why it can't work!

[wahrheit]

magnetic, if you would like to quote other posts and write a reply, please use the Quote button at the bottom right of the post you want to answer. Makes reading those replies a lot easier.

[Madalch]

True, most magnets sold are very weak and the above quote has been used before but the magnets I use will put a magnetic field through and out the other side of my wrist thus exposing fast flowing arterial blood and the iron within to a "strong" magnetic field. I accept that this field is getting progressively weaker and it one of the reasons why I believe that soem products work better than others and why some trials are not proven. Your thoughts?

Your magnet my be strong enough to be detected a few centimetres away, but it is still not strong enough to have much effect on a diamagnetic substance.

Besides, you're missing the point I made about hemoglobin being diamagnetic, just like nearly every other molecule in the human body. Water molecules are also diamagnetic, sodium ions and chloride ions are diamagnetic, lipids are diamagnetic, etc. If you have a strong enough magnetic field to repel hemoglobin, you'll also be repelling the water and everything else in the red blood cells, the platelets, the plasma, and all the other components of blood and all the surrounding cells and tissue. That's why the whole frog levitates, rather than turning red on one side.

[magnetic]

with regard to the amount electrons in the iron atom in blood I have read and been told the opposite so why are they wrong? (a research biologist) and I have never been corrected at any time on this when discussing face to face with both a Physicist and haematologists? I will do more research on this.
With regard to "spellchecker". I have already admitted in taking too long to make my point so checking my spelling or grammer when you clearly understand what I am saying is a bit picky and you clearly have more time on your hands than me!

[magnetic]

magnetic, if you would like to quote other posts and write a reply, please use the Quote button at the bottom right of the post you want to answer. Makes reading those replies a lot easier.

Thanks for that.
I am new to this and I did wonder how it was done.

[Crundy]

Hmm, if you want to "ethically" sell these items, you should have a disclaimer that says "These products have not been scientifically proven to work, but a lot of people find they help them, and we are therefore selling for those people who believe they work". That's ethical selling. If I see a joke voodoo doll in my local store I'm sure it would have a disclaimer saying it was a novelty item and would not actually harm anyone.

[Locknar]

Read my lips; "I cannot legally make any claims" so I don't.
Oh really?

It is not a FACT that it doesn't work it just hasn't been proven either way. Sounds like a claim (and a false one at that) to me *lol*

[Almo]

Sometime I wonder if scammers use our forum as an acid test for their ability to dodge attacks. Sounds like a good strategy to me... there's some real sharks around here. :gear_lol2:

[magnetic]

You claim that your little magnets have an effect on blood; it has been shown that much more powerful magnets do not have such an effect.


It is not a fact of any sort. It is wrong. The iron in hemoglobin is in the +2 oxidation state; so it has two fewer electrons than protons. Those electrons are part of the rest of the hemoglobin molecule, which has no overall charge. Thus the hemoglobin molecule (including the iron) has exactly as many electrons as protons.


Yes, but to have a measurable effect, you'd need an extremely powerful magnet- not the little ones found in magnetic bracelets or talismans.


You say "charge" whereas I was told "energy".

I hope "spell checker" doesn't see you miss spelt "such" above?

[magnetic]

Oh really?
Sounds like a claim (and a false one at that) to me *lol*

And your evidence to the contrary is???
So! have any of you used the therapy? Know of someone that have used it?

With regard to mobile phones. Lets say that one day it will be shown that putting an "electromagnetic" (no I know its not the same as what we are generally talking about) field in your ear will be shown to be harmfull and the reason I said it to say that when that time comes I will be able to say "I told you so"
And yes, it wasn't that long ago that medical researchers said smoking was good for you!

[magnetic]

Oh really?
Sounds like a claim (and a false one at that) to me *lol*

And your evidence to the contrary is???
So! have any of you used the therapy? Know of someone that have used it?

With regard to mobile phones. Lets say that one day it will be shown that putting an "electromagnetic" (no I know its not the same as what we are generally talking about) field in your ear will be shown to be harmfull and the reason I said it to say that when that time comes I will be able to say "I told you so"
And yes, it wasn't that long ago that medical researchers said smoking was good for you!

[Ryan O'Dine]

...snip...
Only my concience will prevail if it absoultely proven that it cannot possibly work, then I will give up. Until then just as it is difficult to prove that it does work I will carry on. Do not judge me against your own values or of those who have upset you in the past. I had hoped at least that I had put across my integrity even if some or all of you think I am misguided that does make me immoral in what I do.

Unfortunately, your morality is, indeed, in question here.

You offer a therapy you cannot prove. You justify it by saying, in essence, no one can prove it doesn’t work. You charge money. You may even be distracting people from legitimate therapies.

This simply isn’t the behavior or attitude of a highly ethical person. Myself, I chalk it up to ignorance. I suggest you put a halt to your sales until you’ve studied up on the placebo effect, medical ethics, and a nice grounding in biophysics. If you can still sell your product in all good conscience after that, come back and we’ll go another round.

[alfaniner]

...
And yes, it wasn't that long ago that medical researchers said smoking was good for you!

No, they didn't. The cigarette companies printed ads with doctor-looking figures that said such as you did above.

[Locknar]

And your evidence to the contrary is???
So! have any of you used the therapy? Know of someone that have used it?

With regard to mobile phones. Lets say that one day it will be shown that putting an "electromagnetic" (no I know its not the same as what we are generally talking about) field in your ear will be shown to be harmfull and the reason I said it to say that when that time comes I will be able to say "I told you so"
And yes, it wasn't that long ago that medical researchers said smoking was good for you!So impressed with your post you had to do it twice eh?

Changing the subject to divert attention from yourself is a old tactic; you said you are legally not allowed to make claimes...then proceeded to make one.
It is not a FACT that it doesn't work it just hasn't been proven either way.How do you explain this apparent flagrant disregard for the law? Who can I report you too (for making claims)? For that matter, who is preventing you from making claims...the Claim Police (complete with Radio Shack fireman's helmet with red flashing light)?

The simple fact is, magnetic crap/"woo woo" like you sell is proven false; Randi has posted on this many times in his Swift (http://www.randi.org/jr/12-01-2000.html). If you disagree...I'd love to see you take on Randi and try to prove your nonsense.

Consider applying for the MDC, or perhaps documenting your results to the AMA (or other medical associations). But you won't....you'll make silly statements ("I cannot legally make any claims"), try to change the topic, and point to "woo woo" blather vs accepted/proven medial science.

[Ladewig]

If putting a relatively inexpensive (in my case) product on the wrist makes a difference to someones bad back then why should you worry!

So when a customer puts a magnet on his wrist and says his back feels better, do you consider that to be a placebo effect or do you really believe that something more than that is occurring?

. . . . . . . . .
So if I put one of your magnets on my wrist and the magnet is powerful enough to repel blood, then wouldn't that mean that blood flowing down my radial artery will be repelled before it gets to my hand? Doesn't this repellent force prevent blood from getting to my hand?

[arthwollipot]

And your evidence to the contrary is???
So! have any of you used the therapy? Know of someone that have used it?

Here you go.

I would also like a link, (I know your posts are low, but you've certainly used enough words by now) to "any" of the double blind studies used to prove magnets of any kind actually work. I have some severe cronic pain and would love relief without the daily pills I take. However, I tried magnets, nada, nothing, no relief. Of course maybe I haven't tried "yours". Placebos don't seem to work for me, wish they did.

[Cuddles]

Read my lips; "I cannot legally make any claims" so I don't.

And you don't think there might be a reason for that? The fact that your claims are all either false or nonsense, and often both?

It seems that the biggest hangup is that people are making money out of helping people help themselves.

No, the biggest hangup is that you are fraudulently taking money off people and appear to not only not care, but are actually proud of it.

"Only a fool values logic above feeling"

Cute, but more appropriate would be "Only a fool values fantasy above reality."

You say "charge" whereas I was told "energy".

Charge and energy are not even close to being the same thing. Once again you prove that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

With regard to mobile phones. Lets say that one day it will be shown that putting an "electromagnetic" (no I know its not the same as what we are generally talking about) field in your ear will be shown to be harmfull and the reason I said it to say that when that time comes I will be able to say "I told you so"
And yes, it wasn't that long ago that medical researchers said smoking was good for you!

Oh noes! The evil electromagnetics are coming for us! Quick! Everyone hide in a perfectly dark room cooled to absolute zero!

[Crundy]

Magnetic seemed to miss my idea, so I'll repost it:
If you want to "ethically" sell these items, you should have a disclaimer that says "These products have not been scientifically proven to work, but a lot of people find they help them, and we are therefore selling for those people who believe they work". That's ethical selling. If I see a joke voodoo doll in my local store I'm sure it would have a disclaimer saying it was a novelty item and would not actually harm anyone.

[Psiload]

...snip...

Read my lips; "I cannot legally make any claims" so I don't.

...snip...

I don't believe you.

How do you market your "magnetic healing products"? When a potential customer asks you what your magnets do what do you tell them? Do you inform them that there's a good chance that they do nothing at all?

I doubt it.

[Lanzy]

I have seven Jacks not Parsons. This is Bandit, he's the boss.

Without getting specific (mainly I don't know the brand anymore) Bad car wreck, both knees, shoulder, ankles, both wrists injured in 1979. Desperate people try anything that might work. Magnets, hypnosis, accupuncture, for me I have found them all to be quite useless.

[Locknar]

Well seems Mr Magentic has left the building; I guess he was not attracted to us, perhaps repelled by the questions we asked?

Please...stop me before I badly pun again *lol*

[TheDoLittle]

Please...stop me before I badly pun again *lol*

Like Madalch, I think you need a session with Miss Spelt...

[Madalch]

Like Madalch, I think you need a session with Miss Spelt...
What did I do?

[devnull]

apparently you need a 'session' with 'Miss Spelt'. Im hoping she's a masseuse and not a hooker.....

[TheDoLittle]

I refer you to post #83:

I hope "spell checker" doesn't see you miss spelt "such" above?

Miss Spelt is obviously someone associated with witchcraft and games. This "Spell Checker" is perceived a much simpler game than "Wizards Chess" of Harry Potter fame. Using the healing magic of magnets, you move your red or black pieces about a checkerboard. I understand this form of checkers is readily available in a "Magnetic Travel" version.

What did I do?

You Miss Spelt!

apparently you need a 'session' with 'Miss Spelt'. Im hoping she's a masseuse and not a hooker.....

No, but her personality is, dare I say, magnetic!

[Drs_Res]

[start Dr. Evil voice]
Personally, I find her quite........repellent.
[end Dr. Evil voice]