Strong platonism and rejection of scientific truth

[becomingagodo]

Yeah, I suddenly turned back from a nihillist to a platonist. Anyway, I reject scientific truth.

Science is useful, and theories like evolution, big bang and quantum mechanics are physically true. However, because science is natural then it is weak. Yes it can explain what we see around us, however does it really give us truth? or just explanation of the physically.

Religion is a big failure, it offers no truth. Religion is used to justify something that is belife or blind faith and it explanation of what is around us is crappy compared to science.

But, then science itself is limited. By only being natural it lost universal meaning. Science explains the physical so is inherently materialist.

However, does the physical offer any meaning. A good example is a atom, does that offer any meaning? yes it tells us what we are made out of and gives a very good picture of our universe. However, in what sense can you say that this universe is reality? or that the universe is not a illusion?

You really can't know. And it impossible to find out. In this sense the universe is nilihistic.

Only mathematic transcends this problem, as it is not about the physical. Mathematics is about patterns, and in that sense if something has patterns then mathematics can be done. In this sense mathematical truth is the only truth.

P.S. Being a nihillist for a day is really fun.

[Darth Rotor]

P.S. Being a nihillist for a day is really fun
New definition of Nihilist: "one who is out of material."

One of these days, BAGboy will understand that even unintentional comedy needs to be written more lucidly than his emissions.

ETA: deleted a great deal more, in the spirit of nihilism and pith.

DR

[the PC apeman]

Perhaps, becomingagodo, you should consider a future in computer sciences. Your thinking seems quite binary.

[becomingagodo]

New definition of Nihilist: "one who is out of material."
Atleast it better then a skeptic.

Perhaps, becomingagodo, you should consider a future in computer sciences. Your thinking seems quite binary.
Computer science is for people who like Turing and people who like world of warhammer. Thankfully I have neither of those traits.

[the PC apeman]

Computer science is for people who like Turing and people who like world of warhammer. Thankfully I have neither of those traits.So what, if anything, do you dislike about the English mathematician Alan Turing?

[aggle-rithm]

So what, if anything, do you dislike about the English mathematician Alan Turing?

If he "likes" Turing, that makes him gay.

[ravdin]

Computer science is for people who like Turing and people who like world of warhammer. Thankfully I have neither of those traits.

Alan Turing was a cryptologist during WWII. He cracked the Germans' Enigma code, making a major contribution to the Allies' efforts in defeating fascism in Europe.

Who, indeed, would want to emulate someone like Turing?

[becomingagodo]

Who, indeed, would want to emulate someone like Turing?
Yeah, but computer science sucks. I just don't like computer sciencitist.

I like computers, however not computer sciencitist.

He cracked the Germans' Enigma code, making a major contribution to the Allies' efforts in defeating fascism in Europe.
Computer technology will end up leading to a greater fascism. The rich benefitting from the latest technology whilst the poor don't. All because of Turing. Not only that you can blame Turing for the cold war and atomic bombs.

Turing should have waited to build his machine, instead now we have lots of atomic bombs. All because of Turing.

Also, the advent of calculation and numerical methods has hurt the advance and understanding of mathematics.

[Cello Man]

I think you mean "World of Warcraft". "Warhammer" is its own game. For the record, I've never played either one, I just know how to keep my trivia straight.

[the PC apeman]

If he "likes" Turing, that makes him gay.Maybe they could have a platonic relationship?

[Cello Man]

Computer technology will end up leading to a greater fascism.

Why do you feel it's morally acceptable to tell us this by using an instrument of fascism?

[becomingagodo]

Why do you feel it's morally acceptable to tell us this by using an instrument of fascism?
I reject morality, see I am a nihilist in most respects, except mathematical truth.

I think you mean "World of Warcraft". "Warhammer" is its own game. For the record, I've never played either one, I just know how to keep my trivia straight.
Well, both. The same thing. Geeks.

[the PC apeman]

Computer technology will end up leading to a greater fascism. The rich benefitting from the latest technology whilst the poor don't. All because of Turing. Not only that you can blame Turing for the cold war and atomic bombs.

Turing should have waited to build his machine, instead now we have lots of atomic bombs. All because of Turing.Feh! Drivel. This is the only bomb for which Turing is responsible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing#The_Turing-Welchman_bombe

[becomingagodo]

Do you really have to have a reason to dislike someone?

[the PC apeman]

Well then just come out and say 'I have an unfounded dislike of Alan Turning'. Why make him out to be some monster he clearly was not?

[becomingagodo]

Well then just come out and say 'I have an unfounded dislike of Alan Turning'. Why make him out to be some monster he clearly was not?
Why make Turing out to be some sort of hero?
Anyway, it's hard to talk to Turing fanboys.

[the PC apeman]

Hero? I just asked why you didn't like him. Who do you like or admire and why? Or perhaps the meaning you attribute to mathematics provides some sort of misanthropic shelter? Would you drain all uncertainty from the world if you could?

[Cello Man]

You call me "geek" like it's a bad thing.

[paiute]

Didn't a chap name of Godel (add umlaut in your brain) toss a spanner into your conclusion?

[Darth Rotor]

Maybe they could have a platonic relationship?

Then he'd be a platonic non necrophile.

Who wants that burden?

DR

[Almo]

Yeah, I suddenly turned back from a nihillist to a platonist. Anyway, I reject scientific truth.

words words words words

P.S. Being a nihillist for a day is really fun.

I um... ah... :confused:

[Piscivore]

...the cold war and atomic bombs.

Notwithstanding the aforementioned fact that Turing was not involved with the Manhattan Project, nuclear weapons have been the most effective instrument of peace mankind has ever invented. Unless you would have preferred the Cold War have been "hot"?

[Ravenwood]

I reject morality, see I am a nihilist in most respects, except mathematical truth.


Well, both. The same thing. Geeks.

No, actually they are not. WOW is a MMO computer game, Warhammer is an entire genre, covering 28mm Miniature battles, 10mm Miniature battles, a pen & paper RPG as well as several PC games & and an upcoming MMO.

[slingblade]

I hate math. I really do. I hate learning it, using it, or even seeing it mentioned.


Hate.

[dudalb]

I reject morality, see I am a nihilist in most respects, except mathematical truth.




People who reject all morality are why I keep a couple of guns around the house.

[DanishDynamite]

Yeah, I suddenly turned back from a nihillist to a platonist. Anyway, I reject scientific truth.

Science is useful, and theories like evolution, big bang and quantum mechanics are physically true. However, because science is natural then it is weak. Yes it can explain what we see around us, however does it really give us truth? or just explanation of the physically.

Religion is a big failure, it offers no truth. Religion is used to justify something that is belife or blind faith and it explanation of what is around us is crappy compared to science.

But, then science itself is limited. By only being natural it lost universal meaning. Science explains the physical so is inherently materialist.

However, does the physical offer any meaning. A good example is a atom, does that offer any meaning? yes it tells us what we are made out of and gives a very good picture of our universe. However, in what sense can you say that this universe is reality? or that the universe is not a illusion?

You really can't know. And it impossible to find out. In this sense the universe is nilihistic.

Only mathematic transcends this problem, as it is not about the physical. Mathematics is about patterns, and in that sense if something has patterns then mathematics can be done. In this sense mathematical truth is the only truth.

P.S. Being a nihillist for a day is really fun.
The only reason you or I exist is that a zillion generations of our forefathers and foremothers had offspring which survived long enough to have offspring of their own. There is no other "reason" for us to be here.

That being said, there is a lot of interesting stuff for us to contemplate once we are here. Perhaps we should contemplate them for a while before we decide to snuff ourselves. Afterall, we always have this "snuff" option.

Your life is your own, not what others expect of you. Stay and contemplate for a while.

[JoeEllison]

You know why you can't get any answers about "meaning" from the universe? Because the questions are complete nonsense.

[DanishDynamite]

You know why you can't get any answers about "meaning" from the universe? Because the questions are complete nonsense.
The questions are not nonsense as such. It is only nonsensical to expect the Universe to provide an answer.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I hate math. I really do. I hate learning it, using it, or even seeing it mentioned.


Hate.

Hate is such a strong emotion. Keep it for really bad things like, say, Canadians.

For Math could you please substitute "Stong Dislike"? Thank you. :D

[Jeff Corey]

I would really be averse to having to sit at a table at big family wedding and have the OPer spouting his or her horsemanure. I've had to listen to similar crap before and I just say something polite, like, "Sorry, you just made me have an uncontrollable urge to puke. I'm sure you will excuse me,"

[slingblade]

Hate is such a strong emotion. Keep it for really bad things like, say, Canadians.

For Math could you please substitute "Stong Dislike"? Thank you. :D

Sigh. I wish I could. For you, I'd try. But it's no use. See, the problem is I want to like math. I love logic, puzzles, trying to figure things out...all good for math. But I don't get it. It's not math's fault, mind you, not at all. But algebra made me cry, honestly.

I want math so much, and can't have it, that I hate it. It's one of those psychobabblogical dilemmas. :boxedin:

[Phaedrus74]

Yeah, I suddenly turned back from a nihillist to a platonist. Anyway, I reject scientific truth.

Science is useful, and theories like evolution, big bang and quantum mechanics are physically true. However, because science is natural then it is weak. Yes it can explain what we see around us, however does it really give us truth? or just explanation of the physically.

Religion is a big failure, it offers no truth. Religion is used to justify something that is belife or blind faith and it explanation of what is around us is crappy compared to science.

But, then science itself is limited. By only being natural it lost universal meaning. Science explains the physical so is inherently materialist.

However, does the physical offer any meaning. A good example is a atom, does that offer any meaning? yes it tells us what we are made out of and gives a very good picture of our universe. However, in what sense can you say that this universe is reality? or that the universe is not a illusion?

You really can't know. And it impossible to find out. In this sense the universe is nilihistic.

Only mathematic transcends this problem, as it is not about the physical. Mathematics is about patterns, and in that sense if something has patterns then mathematics can be done. In this sense mathematical truth is the only truth.

P.S. Being a nihillist for a day is really fun.

Congratulations on finding a religion, I hope you have fun with it.

(Closet Pythagoreans, pffff.)

[KingMerv00]

However, does the physical offer any meaning. A good example is a atom, does that offer any meaning? yes it tells us what we are made out of and gives a very good picture of our universe. However, in what sense can you say that this universe is reality? or that the universe is not a illusion?

The physical universe is as real as it real can be. Getting your arm broken hurts, friends dying is sad, pudding is tasty. Even if the physical universe were an illusion, it is real in every sense that matters.

P.S. Being a nihillist for a day is really fun.

How can you have fun when you think nothing is true?

[becomingagodo]

Even if the physical universe were an illusion, it is real in every sense that matters.
Except being real. If you care about truth, then you would care about the true nature of things. And if the true nature of the physical universe is a illusion, you should care.

How can you have fun when you think nothing is true?
"It is only after we have lost everything that we are free to do anything"

[KingMerv00]

Except being real. If you care about truth, then you would care about the true nature of things. And if the true nature of the physical universe is a illusion, you should care.

Oh I CARE if the physical universe is an illusion or not but that won't stop me from acting as if it was because I have no choice. Even if I live in the matrix, things I do still have an impact on myself and on others. Food still tastes good, jokes are still funny, and life is still fun.

[Cello Man]

"It is only after we have lost everything that we are free to do anything"

Yup. I saw Fight Club, too.

[Phaedrus74]

Except being real. If you care about truth, then you would care about the true nature of things. And if the true nature of the physical universe is a illusion, you should care.

You forget to use capital letters, what you are talking about is "Truth" (note the capital "T") which does not exist.
(I suggest that for therapeutical purposes you read "Jenseits von Gut und Böse" by Nietzsche. You should be cured of your affliction in mere weeks)

What does exist is "truth" (note the lower-case "t").
This is a property of sentences.

There is no "true nature of things" there are only "true sentences about the nature of things".

Get it right...

[becomingagodo]

I suggest that for therapeutical purposes you read "Jenseits von Gut und Böse" by Nietzsche.
Nietzsche http://youtube.com/watch?v=oHk3_NwH-WM I'm a more of a fan of Russell.

[Phaedrus74]

Nietzsche http://youtube.com/watch?v=oHk3_NwH-WM I'm a more of a fan of Russell.

Understandable but besides the point. Russell offers no argument, so adducing this clip as justification to disregard what Nietzsche says about infatuation with Truth (capitalized) is a bit weak.

But as I said previously, I respect your religious beliefs. Do not make the mistake however of thinking that they are something other than religious beliefs disguised as rationality.

[Dark Jaguar]

You don't like computer science? I'm not even sure that makes sense. It's all basically just math made manifest on some hardware. Well, actually a large part is just understanding upper bounds on what can be computed. Still, what's to hate? You actually think there's some chance of the poor being oppressed by the metal overlords? Reality check: lower and lower classes are able to afford computers as time goes on. People that can't afford cars are getting computers. As for them being "needed" now, well duh! It's called progress. Would you really rather dash back to the 1900's when "calculator" was a person's job description? If you want that, there ARE amish communities. I'd rather continue the forward march to more processing power.

Perhaps you don't like it because of how the very fact that you can use them, and say, get a response from me, proves so very much of science to be pretty much spot on, and shows that math can actually exist physically, and how to parse logical structures and that by simply running a simulation one can prove the soundness of a logical system rather outright.

[becomingagodo]

Understandable but besides the point. Russell offers no argument, so adducing this clip as justification to disregard what Nietzsche says about infatuation with Truth (capitalized) is a bit weak.
In one of his book I think the history of modern philosophy he has a whole chapter devoted to Nietzsche and how he is wrong.
You don't like computer science? I'm not even sure that makes sense. It's all basically just math made manifest on some hardware
Applied mathematics is stupid. You can't really call it maths, thats why they have a distrinction between pure and applied.
I'd rather continue the forward march to more processing power.
Again, it is usefull, however you really don't need to like something because it usefull.

GH Hardy said that he loved that his field has no applications. I guess computer science has gave number theorist more money, however is that a good thing?

Either way, stuff like Statistics and applied mathematics seem dull and boring. I guess some people find applied mathematics boring. Anyway, I will admit I was being overally harsh on computer sciencitist and Turing.

[Phaedrus74]

In one of his book I think the history of modern philosophy he has a whole chapter devoted to Nietzsche and how he is wrong.

Nietzsche's point isn't about being wrong or right, it's about exposing the pitfalls on the quest of knowledge, the notion of transcendant Truth is one of them.

I would recommend going to the source, hearsay through a reputable source is still hearsay.

As an aside:
Referencing an outdated history of philosophy that was written by an admittedly knowledgable but not necessarily objective author (considering the debate between "analytical" and "continental" philosophy at that time) does not lend credence to your position. It merely shows that you share his opinions, which is fine, but they are just that:no more than opinions.

[fuelair]

Yeah, I suddenly turned back from a nihillist to a platonist. Anyway, I reject scientific truth.


P.S. Being a nihillist for a day is really fun.



Cogito ergo postum!!:D

[Complexity]

Perhaps, becomingagodo, you should consider a future in computer sciences. Your thinking seems quite binary.


On behalf of the computing sciences, No.

That leaves Phys Ed.

[jsfisher]

On behalf of the computing sciences, No.

That leaves Phys Ed.

I'm thinkin' Special Ed.

[drkitten]

Applied mathematics is stupid.

Just like calculus and the Fields medal, right?

You can't really call it maths,

i can and do. And an awful lot of mathematicians --- nearly all of them -- agree.

thats why they have a distrinction between pure and applied.

Now that is stupid. The reason they have a division within mathematics is precisely because they are both mathematics, but sometimes you need a finer grain. You might as well say that chemical engineering isn't really engineering -- that's why they have a distinction between chemical, electrical, mechanical, petroleum, aeronautical, and biomedical engineering. Because naturally only one of those is "really" engineering and the rest are just posers and fakes.

I'll let the various engineers on the forum argue about which ones are the posers and which ones are the fakes.