(Devil's advocate) How is 'Islamophobia' different from Racism?

[Undesired Walrus]

Now, I for one, do not support any laws that declare criticising Islam is a 'hate crime'.

Thinking about it however, I wonder if an argument, if any could be made that some are as ingrained in their religion since birth as a black man is ingrained in his skin since birth. Writing this out, it seems somewhat silly, but if this argument ever came up in the future, I'm not sure how I could counter it.

Another, is that you may disagree with somebodies skin colour in a school photograph because they ruin the continuity of colours (say everyone else is black/white), but not exactly have anything about the person because of their skin colour. Should that be racist? Is it racist?

If you dislike a gay man because he is camp, despite not disliking him because he is gay, should it be classified as Homophobia? A man in a bar a while back was saying that while he did not care if one was gay or not, gay people should have higher taxes because they do not produce kids. Valid argument or not, is it wrong to call him a homophobe?

I'm just trying to work out if the 'protect Islam' argument can fit into either one of these.

[Nogbad]

One could say, for example, that childless people should pay higher taxes because they are, say, not contributing to the future demographic stability of the country. However, one cannot do so purely on the basis of who they like to bed. That is, you cannot single out childless gay people and ignore childless straight people - that would be discrimination.

[Darth Rotor]

Now, I for one, do not support any laws that declare criticising Islam is a 'hate crime'.

Thinking about it however, I wonder if an argument, if any could be made that some are as ingrained in their religion since birth as a black man is ingrained in his skin since birth. Writing this out, it seems somewhat silly, but if this argument ever came up in the future, I'm not sure how I could counter it.

Another, is that you may disagree with somebodies skin colour in a school photograph because they ruin the continuity of colours (say everyone else is black/white), but not exactly have anything about the person because of their skin colour. Should that be racist? Is it racist?

If you dislike a gay man because he is camp, despite not disliking him because he is gay, should it be classified as Homophobia? A man in a bar a while back was saying that while he did not care if one was gay or not, gay people should have higher taxes because they do not produce kids. Valid argument or not, is it wrong to call him a homophobe?

I'm just trying to work out if the 'protect Islam' argument can fit into either one of these.
To ask your question slightly differently, how is Christianophobia different from racism? How is antiTheism different from racism?

In a related question, how is Atheism different from racism?

See where you might end up with this? Disliking someone else's ideas, or disagreeing with them, is a different interpersonal transaction that identifying a race of another as a basis for contempt, hatred, or general disdain.

If we don't make that distinciton, my disdain for CT idiots starts to get ported over to racism. Is that where you'd like to go with this idea? (Methinks not.)

Let's not mix meanings, shall we?

DR

[Undesired Walrus]

Are you saying it starts a slippery slope you cannot come back from (DR)?

[Earthborn]

Thinking about it however, I wonder if an argument, if any could be made that some are as ingrained in their religion since birth as a black man is ingrained in his skin since birth.I don't think it should make any difference whether someone is "ingrained from birth" in skin colour, religion or worldview, sex, gender, sexual preference or whatever. Would it be okay to discriminate someone if skincolour could change during life (think Michael Jackson) ?

If you dislike a gay man because he is camp, despite not disliking him because he is gay, should it be classified as Homophobia?Not necessarily. There are even gay people who don't like the swishy types. I think it can only be classified as homophobia if someone prefers gay people to act ungay because s/he prefers gay people to remain unseen.

A man in a bar a while back was saying that while he did not care if one was gay or not, gay people should have higher taxes because they do not produce kids. Valid argument or not, is it wrong to call him a homophobe?Whether it is a valid argument or not depends on the reasons why he thinks people who don't procreate should pay higher taxes, whether he thinks the same rule should apply to heterosexual people who don't not have children, and whether he thinks gay people with children should be exempted from this.

I'm just trying to work out if the 'protect Islam' argument can fit into either one of these.I can't help you with that. I don't have a clue where you are trying to go with this.

[MichelQC]

If you dislike a gay man because he is camp, despite not disliking him because he is gay, should it be classified as Homophobia? A man in a bar a while back was saying that while he did not care if one was gay or not, gay people should have higher taxes because they do not produce kids. Valid argument or not, is it wrong to call him a homophobe?

In my view it would be wrong calling you bar acquaintance homophobic since his critique is not (on the surface) based on the sexual preferences of the group who is refered to. Many "straight" persons are childless too, so one would assume (perhaps wrongly) that this special tax would be applied to everyone in that situation and not just gays.

[Cello Man]

I am opposed to the philosophical and religious ideals of radical Islam. Someone who agrees with those ideals might come from Egypt, Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia, the Phillipines, Iraq, etc.

Not everyone from those countries is an Al Qaeda supporter. Why would someone think that because I oppose certain ideals held by a percentage of a nation's population, I must ergo hold racist prejudices against people from Egypt, Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia, the Phillipines, Iraq, etc?

A lot of white people like Kenny G. I hate Kenny G. Does that make me racist towards my own ethnicity?

Bartender! Non-sequiturs all around, it's on me.

[DmKrispin]

Child-free couples already do pay more in taxes. Just ask my first-born deduction.

[Foster Zygote]

To ask your question slightly differently, how is Christianophobia different from racism? How is antiTheism different from racism?

In a related question, how is Atheism different from racism?

See where you might end up with this? Disliking someone else's ideas, or disagreeing with them, is a different interpersonal transaction that identifying a race of another as a basis for contempt, hatred, or general disdain.

If we don't make that distinciton, my disdain for CT idiots starts to get ported over to racism. Is that where you'd like to go with this idea? (Methinks not.)

Let's not mix meanings, shall we?

DR

As I once said: I don't wear my atheism on my skin.

[tkingdoll]

Racism is believing that one race (usually your own) is superior to another.

Discrimination is a different thing. You can hold racist beliefs but not discriminate.

As for hating campness, unless you can prove that campness is an exclusively gay behaviour then it's not homophobic. If someone is only camp because they are gay, then hating their campness is hating their gayness. But that's not the case. Plenty of straight people are camp. Plenty of gay people are not camp.

But that's very similar to the kneejerk reaction that many people get if you criticise Islam. In the UK, for example, almost all Muslims are not white. So some folk like to equate Islamophobia with racism because the people whose beliefs or behaviours or politics you are criticising are generally dark-skinned.

Regarding religion being 'ingrained' into someone from birth, I don't accept that as the case. You only need to find one ex-religious person (there are many on this forum for a start) to demonstrate that religious belief is a free choice. I have some sympathy for the argument if you're talking about people indoctrinated into a religion from birth in countries with very poor levels of education, but in the UK, no individual can claim that they had no choice but to be one religion or other.

The other issue is one of behaviour. Islamophobia has come about for several reasons, one of them being the threat of terrorism. It's only a tiny number of Muslims who accept, support or would carry out terrorism, but it tars the religion and its moderate followers with a bad brush. That is similar to racism, I'd say.

Regarding the kids/tax thing, that's a nonsense. Having kids will use up more resources than they contribute. In fact, people without kids should get tax relief for helping the environment.

[KarlG]

Ive had to explain this to quite a few people over the last few years, Islam isnt a race so dislike of Islam cant be racism, it is however, religious intolerance. Not that i single out Islam for my religious intolerance (although it itself seems to be the least tolerant of the major religions), im an equal opportunity 'intolerant', i cant stand any of them.

KarlG

[aggle-rithm]

Child-free couples already do pay more in taxes. Just ask my first-born deduction.

...and the fact that we pay property taxes to fund schools that we have no one to send to.

[Beerina]

As for hating campness, unless you can prove that campness is an exclusively gay behaviour then it's not homophobic. If someone is only camp because they are gay, then hating their campness is hating their gayness. But that's not the case. Plenty of straight people are camp. Plenty of gay people are not camp.

Like goth, in a sense it's weird for the sake of being weird, and people may get a little freaked out by it. This should not be surprising, regardless of coincidental associations with sexuality (or anything else).

[fuelair]

A man in a bar a while back was saying that while he did not care if one was gay or not, gay people should have higher taxes because they do not produce kids. Valid argument or not, is it wrong to call him a homophobe?

.

Actually, people with kids put a higher drain on the economy, ergo they should pay more taxes. (I am not really arguing this, but it makes exactly as much sense.)

[fuelair]

mysterious duplication

[Silentknight]

Islamophobia can easily lead to prejudice, due to people's fear of terrorism, and that kind of bigotry is the most similar to racism, as teek pointed out. Criticizing Islam by stating reasoned disagreement with its central tenets is not the same as Islamophobia, though. Phobia implies irrational fear. To criticize Islam itself is to attack the ideas, not necessarily the people holding them. I would argue that open disagreement and questioning does more for the sake of Islam than shielding it from reproach does, and is something that Muslims themselves should engage in more often.

[CapelDodger]

In Europe, Islam and post-war immigration are intimately linked. Turks in Germany, North Africans in Southern Europe, Albanians in Greece, Pakistanis and Bengalis in the UK. This makes it difficult to draw the line between racism and islamophobia, especially when racist parties make so much of Islam these days.

[CapelDodger]

Actually, people with kids put a higher drain on the economy, ergo they should pay more taxes. (I am not really arguing this, but it makes exactly as much sense.)

Which is to say not much, since if you get what you pay for government (and taxes) become redundant.

I am child-free, but I have six nepots (four nephews and two nieces) that I'm more than happy to subsidise. In fact, by not breeding myself I've had time and money available to buy their affection at cut-price :). The generosity of parents tends to go unnoticed; uncles have it easy.

[Elind]

Now, I for one, do not support any laws that declare criticising Islam is a 'hate crime'.

Thinking about it however, I wonder if an argument, if any could be made that some are as ingrained in their religion since birth as a black man is ingrained in his skin since birth. Writing this out, it seems somewhat silly, but if this argument ever came up in the future, I'm not sure how I could counter it.

......

Surely by now you have been called a racist by someone who disagrees with you? No?

The word is used by some whenever they run into a politically incorrect (they think) position.

Call the problems of Africa as being due to tribal and religious divides that have no place in the modern world, and you will be a racist.

Call Iraqi culture one that has always learned only violence and theft from it's leaders since it's formation, and is therefore not going to go Bush's idealistic way for generations, and you are a racist.

Call Palestinian culture, as represented on the TV shows courtesy of Memri and YouTube, similarly degenerate and claim it has more to do with themselves than Israel, and you will be called a racist.

Point out that the entire Muslim world contributes essentially nothing to scientific advancement and suggest maybe it has something to do with Inshallah, and someone will call you a racist.
http://www.sptimes.com/2008/01/27/Worldandnation/Research_and_religion.shtml

Truth is, I wouldn't worry too much about the label. Those who bandy it about are the same ones who will call you by the "H" word when they tire of racist bigot, or will say that people, other than you, are not really responsible for what they do; it's always someone else's fault.

[PBTree]

Does the argument change if you consider the ethnicity of both islam and christianity's prophets. I would have thought they were both black.

[Elind]

Got pictures?

[Undesired Walrus]

Point out that the entire Muslim world contributes essentially nothing to scientific advancement and suggest maybe it has something to do with Inshallah, and someone will call you a racist.
http://www.sptimes.com/2008/01/27/Worldandnation/Research_and_religion.shtml


Saying that this is the case since the eleventh century, and you may have a point. If you say that they have never contributed anything, it is not racist, but blindly ignorant. They, for a start, invented peer review and named most of the stars in the sky. That and the little thing called Algerbra. It is just simply unfair.

I was having this discussion with a friend tonight, and he said that Islam may deserve special treatment because the beliefs are so deeply ingrained in their culture, their way of life, everything to do with the way their live their lives. What they eat and what they wear.
Whilst not drawing any comparisons to Fascism, I noted the Hitler youth, white values, and all the deep cultural claims Nazism had. We can still deeply, deeply criticise that.

But should a religion deserve special treatment because it has its values so deeply ingrained in its way of life? Unlike, for example, a conservative or liberal.

[PBTree]

Got pictures?

Considering the region they lived in and the fact that you don't see too many blonde haired, blue-eyed people living in the middle east, I would have to assume that they were both dark haired, brown eyed, dark to very dark skinned. (ie not white)

I think that's a fair assumption.

[CapelDodger]

I was having this discussion with a friend tonight, and he said that Islam may deserve special treatment because the beliefs are so deeply ingrained in their culture, their way of life, everything to do with the way their live their lives. What they eat and what they wear.

Some Jews are like that, most aren't. Some Muslims are like that, most aren't. Some Catholics don't eat meat on Friday, but most don't give one, frankly. Stereotyping is lazy. You should have told your friend off for that.

Whilst not drawing any comparisons to Fascism, I noted the Hitler youth, white values, and all the deep cultural claims Nazism had. We can still deeply, deeply criticise that.

Now there was stereotyping as a basic principle. Everybody pigeon-holed and assigned their role in the ineffable but scientific efficiency of the transcendant. No wonder it was born in Austria - and I don't just mean Hitler.

But should a religion deserve special treatment because it has its values so deeply ingrained in its way of life? Unlike, for example, a conservative or liberal.

It should not. Ideally we would prevent the early indoctrination in the first place - whatever it is, religious or ideological. But try saying that without being called totalitarian :rolleyes:.

[bignickel]

I would say: "when did someone's hobby get elevated to the status of an unchangable attribute like skin color""

[Elind]

Saying that this is the case since the eleventh century, and you may have a point. If you say that they have never contributed anything, it is not racist, but blindly ignorant. They, for a start, invented peer review and named most of the stars in the sky. That and the little thing called Algerbra. It is just simply unfair.

What relevance does any alleged achievements a thousand years ago have in this regard? Can I lay claim to something allegedly achieved by my ancestors (or peoples they conquered, for a time) and receive your respect on that basis alone? If anything, I should earn disrespect for attempting to do so while not living up to that image.

I was having this discussion with a friend tonight, and he said that Islam may deserve special treatment because the beliefs are so deeply ingrained in their culture, their way of life, everything to do with the way their live their lives. What they eat and what they wear.

How does that differ from an orthodox Jew or a born again fundamentalist Christian creationist, or whatever...? The more crippled by tradition, or blind faith, the more respect is deserved?


Whilst not drawing any comparisons to Fascism, I noted the Hitler youth, white values, and all the deep cultural claims Nazism had. We can still deeply, deeply criticise that.


I don't follow the analogy.


But should a religion deserve special treatment because it has its values so deeply ingrained in its way of life? Unlike, for example, a conservative or liberal.

No, but they deserve the right to be left alone to wallow in their superstitions, as long as they keep them to themselves.

[Elind]

Considering the region they lived in and the fact that you don't see too many blonde haired, blue-eyed people living in the middle east, I would have to assume that they were both dark haired, brown eyed, dark to very dark skinned. (ie not white)

I think that's a fair assumption.

I was being facetious earlier. What difference does the "color" make? Everybody, except the slaves who didn't count, looked the same around those parts.

[Rufo]

Islamophobia is not in itself racism, although (if one uses the word correctly, not as a tool for fending off criticism of the religion) it is a form of prejudice, and may in many ways be equally as harmful and unfair as racism.

However, someone who is not afraid and/or object to a religion widely practiced by people of their own ethnicity, but are afraid of and/or object to a religion widely practiced by people of a different ethnicity, might want to examine their reasons for this. Like CapelDodger mentioned, racist parties in Europe often use Islam as an excuse to instil fear of the ethnicities associated with Islam. A person might do the same thing in their mind to justify their racism, effectively making it appear to themselves and others as Islamophobia.

Since most of the posters on this board are also highly critical of religions practiced among people of their own ethnicity, however, most instances of Islamophobia seen here probably don't stem from racism.

[Elind]

Islamophobia is not in itself racism, although (if one uses the word correctly, not as a tool for fending off criticism of the religion) it is a form of prejudice, and may in many ways be equally as harmful and unfair as racism.

I am prejudiced against any belief in imaginary creators, but particularly so against those who believe it is their purpose in life to either separate themselves from those, within their society, who don't have their faith and make every effort, honest or dishonest, to impose their beliefs on others. I don't discuss my prejudices uninvited, but I consider attempts to impose on me an invitation.

So according to your logic does that make me a harmful and unfair racist?

[Rufo]

I am prejudiced against any belief in imaginary creators, but particularly so against those who believe it is their purpose in life to either separate themselves from those, within their society, who don't have their faith and make every effort, honest or dishonest, to impose their beliefs on others. I don't discuss my prejudices uninvited, but I consider attempts to impose on me an invitation.

So according to your logic does that make me a harmful and unfair racist?
In one word, no.

First, I wrote as harmful and unfair as a racist. If your prejudice is in any way harmful or unfair, it still does not make you a racist. My intention was to compare Islamophobia to racism, not to equate them.

Second, I wrote may be. What exactly do you mean when you say you are prejudiced against any belief in imaginary creators? That you disagree with those who believe so, which has nothing to do with prejudice? That you are afraid of or dislike them (all of them)? That you prematurely ascribe to every such individual various characteristics that you associate with your fear or dislike, even though you can not know if they are true for this specific individual? I think you can see where this is going.

Taken far enough, yes, almost any kind of prejudice can be as harmful and unfair as racism. I strongly doubt, however, that your disagreement with theism is any such thing. Of course, you may prove me wrong if you wish.

[Elind]

Second, I wrote may be. What exactly do you mean when you say you are prejudiced against any belief in imaginary creators? That you disagree with those who believe so, which has nothing to do with prejudice? That you are afraid of or dislike them (all of them)? That you prematurely ascribe to every such individual various characteristics that you associate with your fear or dislike, even though you can not know if they are true for this specific individual? I think you can see where this is going.


Yes I see where it is going, but the main reason I was debating this issue is the frequency with which we see the accusation of "racist" bandied about.

Truth is, however, we all are prone to make such judgments, prematurely, to some degree, just as we judge someone initially on the way they are dressed and there are good grounds for generalizing in many cases. I do not think, for example, that creationists can be relied on to make critical judgments on complex facts, even while they may sometimes be the nicest people one can imagine. That is a prejudice and one I cannot deny.