An Open Letter to a Family Member

[Roadtoad]

As has been noted before, I used to be a Christian. Now, I'm an Atheist.

Plumjam's latest bit of self-adulatory drama provoked this letter to my brother-in-law. Considering he's every bit as big a jerk as Plumjam, it seems to fit. If there are parallels to Plumjam beyond this, it's coincidental, but not a surprise.

D***,

You have often wondered of late why Peggy and I aren’t in church anymore. You have complained to Jonathan that we seem to have lost our faith, and that we’re no longer serving as an example to our sons.

Let me explain it to you plainly, and hopefully, we can do this without a lot of rancor on your part, or any emotional blackmail on B**’s part. We quit.

Peggy has been questioning her beliefs for some time now, much to my surprise, and a few months ago, I simply gave up altogether and declared myself an atheist. I no longer believe there is a god.

I’m going to spare you a discussion of Biblical contradictions, and I’m certainly not going to go into any great detail about Young Earth Creationism or even Intelligent Design has so soured me on the whole idea of anyone trying to balance the notions of Evolution and Religion. (Frankly, it can’t be done on either scale, and the very idea has become an affront. Sorry.) I’m also going to avoid any discussion at this point regarding logical fallacies in Holy Writ, as well as any discussion regarding the whole notion of Hell actually being an act of Mercy for those who choose to deny God. First of all, you won’t listen. You don’t give a rat’s ass what anyone has to say about that, and the very idea of discussing any of this causes you to close your mind to any contradicting idea.

Second, it wasn’t the thing which provoked us to question what it is we believe. It was your actions and B******’s actions which brought about the change.

I hadn’t thought much about my decision to leave the Church, really. It seemed to be a natural outgrowth of a lot of what I’ve been reading over the past few years, as well as an extension of friendships I’ve made. Except that Peggy was talking to her cousin, R****, this past weekend, and as they were talking, she said something that stuck with me.

She told R****, “We tithed over the years, off and on, simply as best we could, but for all the promises that were made to us about that, not one came true. It all seemed to be a lie, and I just can’t believe that it works anymore.”

I heard that and thought, “Whoa.”

She talked a lot about a friend we’d met who was here on business from Hawaii, and the impression she made on her. Yes, she’s not a believer, but she’s happy, she’s respected, and she treats other people in a manner that shows not only her incredible self respect, but respect for others. If there was ever a reason to visit the Islands, I’d say we’ve been given one.

I keep thinking also of another friend, who works for Microsoft. He’s probably one of the kindest people I’ve met, as is his wife and daughters. It’s pretty rare for me to meet people and on the first contact, discover they have so much in common, and yet are so different, that their presence strengthens me in my life. I’m honored to spend time with people like this.

These are just two people. There are others. They are kind. They are generous. They are gracious. Oh, and they’re atheists. (Probably should have mentioned that first so you could ready your put-downs as I went down their other positive traits.)

It’s like this, D***: For all your claims that Jesus’ presence in your life makes you a more compassionate person, your actions make that out to be a lie, and demonstrate, if anything, that Jesus’ sacrifice means little, if anything, to you.

Let’s start with some of the more obvious ones.

First, for years I’ve asked you to quit calling the boys “Jonthebrat” and “Bratthew.” I’ve told you to never, ever call my wife “Piggy.” It’s insulting. I find it offensive. I’ve tried everything short of violence to get through to you that it’s an affront, and you ignore me. The only reason you aren’t dressed in plastic and wearing a second smile from my Buck knife is because Peggy’s begged me to not beat your sorry ass to a broken, bloody pulp. When I’ve told you this offends me, you blow it off saying that I’m being hypersensitive.

Really? I know men who are far less “sensitive” than me who would have broken your jaw for a whole lot less. Most people find that kind of thing rude, vulgar, and childish, not to mention more than a little degrading. B******, of all people, ought to be a bit more sensitive to my feelings on this, but she shares in your assessment. I don’t like my sister one bit. I avoid my own sister as much as possible, given her nasty attitude towards others. But I’ve gotten into fights when someone decided to belittle her, and would probably do so again if the need arose, simply because she is my sister. That your wife allows you to continue to belittle her sister as she does is offensive. Makes me wonder just what kind of “love” she’s showing when she allows you to call her “Piggy.”

Let’s take another point: Matt has decided he’s now a Wiccan. It’s not my choice, but rather than fight with him about it, and drive my son from me, I’ve decided to simply ask questions about what it is he believes, and why he chooses to believe it. Seems to have a better effect on him. He’s still a Wiccan, but at least he’s working towards some far more serious knowledge about what it is he’s getting into. Who knows? He might actually decide the more he learns, the less appealing it is to him.

But, rather than take a more reasoned approach, you and B***** have gotten into emotional blackmail over this. B******’s declaration that she cries herself to sleep every night over Matt’s salvation has had the opposite effect: Matt wants less and less to do with the two of you. And your attempts at “cult busting” have been about as welcome as a ham at a Seder. (Note to Loss Leader: D*** is a converted Jew, calling himself a "Messianic Jew," so this wasn't an attempt to insult you. There was a reason behind it.) If you had ever taken a few minutes to listen to him, and what’s pissing him off, you might have taken some time and just shut up about it. Instead, with your barrage of sanctified verbal vomit, you’re driving him away. Do the rest of us a favor, and SHUT THE F*** UP!

Let’s try another point, since we’re on the subject of the boys: You have, over the years, told my younger two sons just how stupid I am, and how I don’t know what I’m talking about when it comes to anything from the movies I chose to let them watch as little kids, to what they could eat when they came to your house. I didn’t appreciate having to hold my kids and comfort them because you said it was okay for them to watch “Terminator 2,” leaving them with nightmares and horrors of the refrigerator becoming a cop and trying to kill them. Nor did I appreciate it when you told Jon that I wouldn’t toss him out if he didn’t get a job, even though I made it clear that I would. I also didn’t appreciate your attempts to undercut me when I did toss him out because he followed your incredibly foul advice. You further undercut me by taking him in, then belittling me for forcing you to make this “sacrifice.” (Hell, why didn’t you just shut up and tell Jon to quit whining about it and GET A DAMN JOB, which is what he ultimately wound up doing?)

Seems to me this smacks of ignoring one of the Ten Commandments, particularly he one about honoring your Mother and Father. Got a hot flash for you, Ace: the reason Peggy and I have had so many discipline problems with the boys over the years is because of YOUR interference. And you claim your actions are “Christian”? Who are you kidding?

As to my older sons, you demanded to be welcomed at Chris and Kasey’s wedding, and you seem to think you’re owed respect from James and Maddie. Sorry, but those two young men are well aware of your actions, and the degradation you’ve heaped on Peggy and me over they years. If the only time you want to be involved in their lives is when you see some benefit to yourself, you’re not being Christian, you’re an opportunist. The fact that you were in Ellensburg, WA, while Chris was a student at CWU, and you and B****** couldn’t even be bothered to make a phone call and stop by to say hello, (which you stupidly admitted to when Chris and Kasey came down for a visit, a trip they could scarcely afford, and during which you insisted on having some time with them), underscores the whole point. If that weren’t enough, you and B****** seem to think it’s okay to demand time from James when he’s still trying to recover from his injuries from his time in the Army. He’s a new father, D***. He doesn’t have time for you or for your crap. (And if you even think of coming up with an insulting name for any of my grandkids, you’d better be packing heat.)

The final degradation? B*** and D****** have been having a hard time of late, and with D******’ medical problems, B*** wound up moving into your home for a few days.

You have spent an incredible amount of time bitching and whining about how much it’s going to cost you if B*** winds up moving into your home on a permanent basis. You self-centered, narcissistic idiot! Considering everything that our father-in-law has done over the years for all of us, I would have thought you would have viewed this as a privilege to take him into your home. Instead, you have decided that it’s too much of a burden for you and B******, and that it would cramp your life too much. You make twice the money I do, and you’re complaining about the “burden”? Hell, your house is paid for, or at least it was. B*** moving into your home is a “burden”? To me, it would have been an honor.

You have whined for years that the State of California won’t promote you to management, but I don’t see anything in your actions that show you’d make a good manager. If anything, your personality traits at home would be a prime motivation for me, were I in management, to try to get your terminated. Frankly, the fact that you had to fight to become the middle management douche that you are today suggests strongly to me that your rather appalling personality flaws have been front and center at work as much as they have been at home. They aren’t promoting you further not because you’re a Christian; they aren’t promoting you further because you’re a bigoted jackass who belittles gays, lesbians, liberals, non-Christians, the physically disabled, anyone of color, and your own family. Get a clue: No one wants to work for a jerk, and in this day and age, promoting a jerk to management is a good way to get your ass sued.

Frankly, your attitude towards Peggy and me because we’ve been divorced makes me wonder who else you’ve chosen to insult in your life. I’m still floored by your nasty remarks about the circumstances of our respective divorces, particularly since they both happened long before you entered our lives, and you had no knowledge of our prior spouses before you married B**.

See, D***, there’s a lot of difference between you and an atheist. I am barely an acquaintance of James Randi, yet this man, who has had a tremendous positive effect on our society, (which you’d know if you’d ever get your head out from between your cheeks), treated my wife with incredible respect. That was something I appreciated.

Most atheists treat my wife with respect. You don’t. If anything, you’ve treated the woman I love with incredible contempt. Why would I want to associate with you?

For that matter, what in your behavior demonstrates anything “Christlike?” Not one damned thing.

I’m done, D***. I don’t want you at my house, I don’t want to be in yours. As much as possible, I want you out of my life. I’m clearing a room for my father-in-law, where he’ll be a welcome part of my family. And when my sons realize what kind of a person you really are, maybe they’ll come home and recognize that their dad really wasn’t so stupid after all.

And if this means I’m doomed to Hell, hey, any Heaven that would want someone as creepy as you can’t really be worth shooting for, can it?

[devnull]

ouch!

:) nicely done :)

[Mobyseven]

As always, very well put. Straight from the part of the brain we symbolically associate with the heart, I say.

[Oroborus]

Not to be pedantic but I noticed "to try to get your terminated".

I applaud your letter if you infact thing it's going to make a difference on this guy (who seems atleast) to be an utter buffoon and jackass. I can understand your need to vent this righteous anger but it might be easier in the long run to just cut them out of your life without a word (if possible). But I'm sure you know whats best when it comes down to it.

In either case, a good read.

[Complexity]

Roadtoad, I think I love you.

[Roadtoad]

Not to be pedantic but I noticed "to try to get your terminated".

I applaud your letter if you infact thing it's going to make a difference on this guy (who seems atleast) to be an utter buffoon and jackass. I can understand your need to vent this righteous anger but it might be easier in the long run to just cut them out of your life without a word (if possible). But I'm sure you know whats best when it comes down to it.

In either case, a good read.

I probably should get his backside fired, Oroborus, simply because he has the authority to make some innocent person's life miserable. Unfortunately, doing so would easily get me sued. My b-i-l is exceptionally vindictive, (hence the blocking of names). He's two years from retiring from state service, so maybe, just maybe, that would be just long enough to put up with.

I've been refusing to go to their house for any reason over the past many months. Peggy's gone alone for family gatherings, while I've used the excuse that I had a truck to work on. Seems to work for now. I'd simply rather she cut people from her life who treat her in a disrespectful manner, and if that includes her idiot sister, so be it.

[Cainkane1]

Good letter. Straight and to the point. He deserved every unkind word and I hope he had the guts to finish it from beginning to end. Some of the worst people I have ever had the misfortune to meet wouldn't miss church for anything in this world. I'm an atheist myself and thats the way I'm staying.

I do know of a few good Christians. My mothers first cousin had a Baptist mission in Guatamala when two little girls suddenly became orphaned. They bus their parents had been riding in lost its brakes and went over a cliff. They were killed leaving the girls with no one. This pastor adopted these little Indian girls even though he knew no Spanish. The last I saw of them they had been properly educated on a college level. Thats a good christian and a good person. I'd do the same thing. He did it because he had a compassionate nature not because he was a Christian.

[A Christian Sceptic]

So - is this a letter to your wife's sisters husband?

What are your goals with that letter? To vent after holding your tongue for so long? To cut off all ties with these people?

That letter will definitely do the trick. I doubt you'll have much of a relationship left (it doesn't sound like you have much aleady) but plenty of hostile feelings going both ways after that letter.

It sounded like at the end you have some of your kids living with this guy? If that's true you might want to assume they will hear of this letter filtered through this guy and you might want to try to forsee what sort of effect that will have with your sons.

[sphenisc]

I probably should get his backside fired, Oroborus, simply because he has the authority to make some innocent person's life miserable. Unfortunately, doing so would easily get me sued. My b-i-l is exceptionally vindictive, (hence the blocking of names). He's two years from retiring from state service, so maybe, just maybe, that would be just long enough to put up with.

I've been refusing to go to their house for any reason over the past many months. Peggy's gone alone for family gatherings, while I've used the excuse that I had a truck to work on. Seems to work for now. I'd simply rather she cut people from her life who treat her in a disrespectful manner, and if that includes her idiot sister, so be it.

You've missed blocking your sister's name at one point - perhaps a mod could edit?

[LibraryLady]

You've missed blocking your sister's name at one point - perhaps a mod could edit?

I usually don't mod at work but I made an exception.

Roadie, could you write a letter to my brother, please?

[Walk The Line]

This brother-in-law sounds more like an immature teenager rather than an adult.

[coalesce]

So - is this a letter to your wife's sisters husband?

What are your goals with that letter? To vent after holding your tongue for so long? To cut off all ties with these people?

That letter will definitely do the trick. I doubt you'll have much of a relationship left (it doesn't sound like you have much aleady) but plenty of hostile feelings going both ways after that letter.

It sounded like at the end you have some of your kids living with this guy? If that's true you might want to assume they will hear of this letter filtered through this guy and you might want to try to forsee what sort of effect that will have with your sons.

Easy way around that: send the letters to the kids' workplaces, so that they get the letter unfiltered. Then there's no way anyone else can put their own spin on it.

Insofar as anything being left of the relationship after the letter being read: it doesn't sound like there was anything worth saving, so what's the loss. I doubt if Roadtoad's in-laws will accept any of the criticisms in the letter. In all likelihood, they will continue going about behaving in a holier-than-thou fashion and think that the disingenuous practice of their faith will justify them. Rotsa ruck on that one.

Michael

[Beth]

Roadtoad,

I know you've been through some hard times lately, but I'm really struck by the change in tone of your writings over the past few years. When you considered yourself a Christian, you seemed a kinder friendlier roadtoad. I don't know if the change is due to your loss of faith, the concommitant loss of a community to turn to for support, or just the very hard times you've been through, but I wish you well with whatever you do and I hope your hard times are over soon.

As far as your b-i-l, he sounds like exactly the sort of mean-spirited and judgemental person that are drawn to fundamentalist beliefs of all stripes. The world has too many of them and too few like you. I hope writing and posting your letter was helpful to you, but unless you think sending it to him will improve your relationships with those you actually love, I wouldn't advise it. It gives him a dose of his own back, that is true, but do you want to be like him?

[A Christian Sceptic]

The only reason you aren’t dressed in plastic and wearing a second smile from my Buck knife is because Peggy’s begged me to not beat your sorry ass to a broken, bloody pulp.


You might also want to think twice about incuding any references to violence and murder in the letter also.

[A Christian Sceptic]

Insofar as anything being left of the relationship after the letter being read: it doesn't sound like there was anything worth saving, so what's the loss.

Pouring gasoline on a fire never puts out the fire and very often does extra unintended damage to everything (and everyone) around it. Since this guy isn't even a blood relative of either him (roadtoad) or his wife the damage that will be done on top of the other guys actions don't seem that worthwhile. The problems will still be there except amplified. The damage done isn't going to be with just this guy, but roadtoads wife's sister and possibly roadtoads own kids. What if the sister's relationship with them is damaged with this, and in a year the guy dies or they get a divorce? Well - the sister who is a blood relative will still probably have to be in contact with roadtoad, may still harbor illwill, while this guy gets to go merrily on his way never to be heard from again.

[Fnord]

HEAR! HEAR!
:bigclap
:wave1
:bounce2

Now, put all the names back,
and put it in a full-page add
in your brother-in-law's favorite paper.

[JWideman]

I really think you should say these things to his face.

[Susan Gerbic]

still not sure who is who. Is Peggy your wife or your sister who is married to this jerk?

I can't believe he calls her Piggy, that would break the relationship without anything else being mentioned.

If you haven't sent the letter yet, I would cut out about 2/3 of it. I would leave in the part where you mention that he belittles just about everyone (use all the examples where he has done this) I would remove all the details and violence you can. Who knows someone may end this man's life for their own reasons and you will be blamed. If this was an Agatha Christie, someone would end his life in just the way you described in the letter and let you take the blame. besides the violence is distracting to the otherwise good letter.

I would simply state that his actions are not what the majority of the world would find Christian and give reasons. The I would say that for various reasons, including watching his Christian actions you have become Atheist.

For the most part we don't chose to become Atheist but are led to it by reason, many of us were stressed knowing that we were losing faith. Then when it happens we are happier than ever.

Susan

[fuelair]

[I]?

Excellent letter - it sounds like D is a royal pile of feces and got called on it. Probably should have been sooner (as you noted) but sometimes we do try to hold things together longer because family is involved. Congratulations on getting your shoes a bit cleaner!! Best to you and family!!

(feel free to post his response (if any and if funny!!))

[fuelair]

Good letter. Straight and to the point. He deserved every unkind word and I hope he had the guts to finish it from beginning to end. Some of the worst people I have ever had the misfortune to meet wouldn't miss church for anything in this world. I'm an atheist myself and thats the way I'm staying.

I do know of a few good Christians. My mothers first cousin had a Baptist mission in Guatamala when two little girls suddenly became orphaned. They bus their parents had been riding in lost its brakes and went over a cliff. They were killed leaving the girls with no one. This pastor adopted these little Indian girls even though he knew no Spanish. The last I saw of them they had been properly educated on a college level. Thats a good christian and a good person. I'd do the same thing. He did it because he had a compassionate nature not because he was a Christian.There are wonderful Christians, wonderful Jews, wonderful Muslims (I have known and been friends with some of each). The thing is, religion will no more keep a good person from being a good person than atheism or agnosticism will (the good side) but equally, it will no more make a bad person good thatn atheism or agnosticism will (the bad side). Some people who are religious seem to have difficulty with that. Life is tough.:)

[kedo1981]

We all know people like this from all walks of life, Christian and not.
Is it worse when a Christian is like this?
Out of every church with an couple hundred members there will always be a handful or so, so tell me “Christian Skeptic” what do non jerk Christians think of, do about, say about, their fellow believers who have such personality disorders.
Will such people be rewarded with salvation?

[Beth]

We all know people like this from all walks of life, Christian and not.
Is it worse when a Christian is like this? I think it is. Christians who are mean-spirited and judgemental are failing to live up to the values they espouse - i.e. love and forgiveness for everyone. Likewise, I think dogmatic skeptics are worse than dogmatic non-skeptics because I think a core value of skepticism is being non-dogmatic and open to having assumptions challenged.

Of course, we all fail to live up to our ideals at times.

[A Christian Sceptic]

We all know people like this from all walks of life, Christian and not.
Is it worse when a Christian is like this?


Are there varying degrees and levels of hypocrites? Is a Christian Hypocrite worse than a Buhddist, Muslim, Jewish, Diest, Panthiest, or Athiest Hypocrite?


Out of every church with an couple hundred members there will always be a handful or so, so tell me “Christian Skeptic” what do non jerk Christians think of, do about, say about, their fellow believers who have such personality disorders.
Will such people be rewarded with salvation?

God only knows, I only hope - for hypocrites and non-hypocrites alike.

[Roadtoad]

I've still got the letter in the laptop. No, I haven't sent it, and yes, I'm seriously thinking of stating it in person. And while this will scorch out what remains of a relationship with this man, I'm thinking I wouldn't lose all that much.

My third son, Jon, is living with his aunt and uncle, but he's also looking for his own apartment at this time. Once he's moved out, we'll see about whether or not it's a smart thing to rip into my b-i-l. (Actually, SC, I owe you. You're right about making any threat of violence, and "the genius" would probably view that as actionable.) And, yes, I'm rather devoid of a community connection right now, but I've been without one for some time, particularly since we left the last church where we had membership, with a pastor who allowed the older, bigger kids to bully my younger sons. (They tried it once with the older two and got flattened.) The pastor at that church said I shouldn't interfere in this, it would make my younger sons tougher. (Sure. Jon's working to become a firefighter, and doing quite well with his classes. I can see how he's become such a WIMP...)

Things have been harder over the past few years. The latest nonsense is that Peterbilt is making multiple recommendations on how I'm supposed to drive. They offer no courses, they offer no specifics based on downloaded info from the computer, (which, oddly enough, they didn't bother to download in the first place), and much of this is simply a scattershot attempt to try and avoid any responsibility for what happened. Interestingly enough, we got some information regarding torque specs on a 379. It makes MY case, and undercuts theirs. (What's wrong with this picture?)

[LibraryLady]

And, yes, I'm rather devoid of a community connection right now, but I've been without one for some time, particularly since we left the last church where we had membership, with a pastor who allowed the older, bigger kids to bully my younger sons.

This is demonstratively untrue. You have a community.

[Roadtoad]

This is demonstratively untrue. You have a community.

Online, yes. But I could wish I could spend some time with other skeptics more often, ideally face to face.

[petra10]

Wow just wow Roadtoad, please do sent this letter.Although I do agree you should take out some of the voilent threats.
Please also let us know his reply.I also think you should have done this years ago.


well done. :)

[XBoxWarrior]

As has been noted before, I used to be a Christian. Now, I'm an Atheist.

Plumjam's latest bit of self-adulatory drama provoked this letter to my brother-in-law. Considering he's every bit as big a jerk as Plumjam, it seems to fit. If there are parallels to Plumjam beyond this, it's coincidental, but not a surprise.

D***,

You have often wondered of late why Peggy and I aren’t in church anymore. You have complained to Jonathan that we seem to have lost our faith, and that we’re no longer serving as an example to our sons.

Let me explain it to you plainly, and hopefully, we can do this without a lot of rancor on your part, or any emotional blackmail on B**’s part. We quit.

Peggy has been questioning her beliefs for some time now, much to my surprise, and a few months ago, I simply gave up altogether and declared myself an atheist. I no longer believe there is a god.

I’m going to spare you a discussion of Biblical contradictions, and I’m certainly not going to go into any great detail about Young Earth Creationism or even Intelligent Design has so soured me on the whole idea of anyone trying to balance the notions of Evolution and Religion. (Frankly, it can’t be done on either scale, and the very idea has become an affront. Sorry.) I’m also going to avoid any discussion at this point regarding logical fallacies in Holy Writ, as well as any discussion regarding the whole notion of Hell actually being an act of Mercy for those who choose to deny God. First of all, you won’t listen. You don’t give a rat’s ass what anyone has to say about that, and the very idea of discussing any of this causes you to close your mind to any contradicting idea.

Second, it wasn’t the thing which provoked us to question what it is we believe. It was your actions and B******’s actions which brought about the change.

I hadn’t thought much about my decision to leave the Church, really. It seemed to be a natural outgrowth of a lot of what I’ve been reading over the past few years, as well as an extension of friendships I’ve made. Except that Peggy was talking to her cousin, R****, this past weekend, and as they were talking, she said something that stuck with me.

She told R****, “We tithed over the years, off and on, simply as best we could, but for all the promises that were made to us about that, not one came true. It all seemed to be a lie, and I just can’t believe that it works anymore.”

I heard that and thought, “Whoa.”

She talked a lot about a friend we’d met who was here on business from Hawaii, and the impression she made on her. Yes, she’s not a believer, but she’s happy, she’s respected, and she treats other people in a manner that shows not only her incredible self respect, but respect for others. If there was ever a reason to visit the Islands, I’d say we’ve been given one.

I keep thinking also of another friend, who works for Microsoft. He’s probably one of the kindest people I’ve met, as is his wife and daughters. It’s pretty rare for me to meet people and on the first contact, discover they have so much in common, and yet are so different, that their presence strengthens me in my life. I’m honored to spend time with people like this.

These are just two people. There are others. They are kind. They are generous. They are gracious. Oh, and they’re atheists. (Probably should have mentioned that first so you could ready your put-downs as I went down their other positive traits.)

It’s like this, D***: For all your claims that Jesus’ presence in your life makes you a more compassionate person, your actions make that out to be a lie, and demonstrate, if anything, that Jesus’ sacrifice means little, if anything, to you.

Let’s start with some of the more obvious ones.

First, for years I’ve asked you to quit calling the boys “Jonthebrat” and “Bratthew.” I’ve told you to never, ever call my wife “Piggy.” It’s insulting. I find it offensive. I’ve tried everything short of violence to get through to you that it’s an affront, and you ignore me. The only reason you aren’t dressed in plastic and wearing a second smile from my Buck knife is because Peggy’s begged me to not beat your sorry ass to a broken, bloody pulp. When I’ve told you this offends me, you blow it off saying that I’m being hypersensitive.

Really? I know men who are far less “sensitive” than me who would have broken your jaw for a whole lot less. Most people find that kind of thing rude, vulgar, and childish, not to mention more than a little degrading. B******, of all people, ought to be a bit more sensitive to my feelings on this, but she shares in your assessment. I don’t like my sister one bit. I avoid my own sister as much as possible, given her nasty attitude towards others. But I’ve gotten into fights when someone decided to belittle her, and would probably do so again if the need arose, simply because she is my sister. That your wife allows you to continue to belittle her sister as she does is offensive. Makes me wonder just what kind of “love” she’s showing when she allows you to call her “Piggy.”

Let’s take another point: Matt has decided he’s now a Wiccan. It’s not my choice, but rather than fight with him about it, and drive my son from me, I’ve decided to simply ask questions about what it is he believes, and why he chooses to believe it. Seems to have a better effect on him. He’s still a Wiccan, but at least he’s working towards some far more serious knowledge about what it is he’s getting into. Who knows? He might actually decide the more he learns, the less appealing it is to him.

But, rather than take a more reasoned approach, you and B***** have gotten into emotional blackmail over this. B******’s declaration that she cries herself to sleep every night over Matt’s salvation has had the opposite effect: Matt wants less and less to do with the two of you. And your attempts at “cult busting” have been about as welcome as a ham at a Seder. (Note to Loss Leader: D*** is a converted Jew, calling himself a "Messianic Jew," so this wasn't an attempt to insult you. There was a reason behind it.) If you had ever taken a few minutes to listen to him, and what’s pissing him off, you might have taken some time and just shut up about it. Instead, with your barrage of sanctified verbal vomit, you’re driving him away. Do the rest of us a favor, and SHUT THE F*** UP!

Let’s try another point, since we’re on the subject of the boys: You have, over the years, told my younger two sons just how stupid I am, and how I don’t know what I’m talking about when it comes to anything from the movies I chose to let them watch as little kids, to what they could eat when they came to your house. I didn’t appreciate having to hold my kids and comfort them because you said it was okay for them to watch “Terminator 2,” leaving them with nightmares and horrors of the refrigerator becoming a cop and trying to kill them. Nor did I appreciate it when you told Jon that I wouldn’t toss him out if he didn’t get a job, even though I made it clear that I would. I also didn’t appreciate your attempts to undercut me when I did toss him out because he followed your incredibly foul advice. You further undercut me by taking him in, then belittling me for forcing you to make this “sacrifice.” (Hell, why didn’t you just shut up and tell Jon to quit whining about it and GET A DAMN JOB, which is what he ultimately wound up doing?)

Seems to me this smacks of ignoring one of the Ten Commandments, particularly he one about honoring your Mother and Father. Got a hot flash for you, Ace: the reason Peggy and I have had so many discipline problems with the boys over the years is because of YOUR interference. And you claim your actions are “Christian”? Who are you kidding?

As to my older sons, you demanded to be welcomed at Chris and Kasey’s wedding, and you seem to think you’re owed respect from James and Maddie. Sorry, but those two young men are well aware of your actions, and the degradation you’ve heaped on Peggy and me over they years. If the only time you want to be involved in their lives is when you see some benefit to yourself, you’re not being Christian, you’re an opportunist. The fact that you were in Ellensburg, WA, while Chris was a student at CWU, and you and B****** couldn’t even be bothered to make a phone call and stop by to say hello, (which you stupidly admitted to when Chris and Kasey came down for a visit, a trip they could scarcely afford, and during which you insisted on having some time with them), underscores the whole point. If that weren’t enough, you and B****** seem to think it’s okay to demand time from James when he’s still trying to recover from his injuries from his time in the Army. He’s a new father, D***. He doesn’t have time for you or for your crap. (And if you even think of coming up with an insulting name for any of my grandkids, you’d better be packing heat.)

The final degradation? B*** and D****** have been having a hard time of late, and with D******’ medical problems, B*** wound up moving into your home for a few days.

You have spent an incredible amount of time bitching and whining about how much it’s going to cost you if B*** winds up moving into your home on a permanent basis. You self-centered, narcissistic idiot! Considering everything that our father-in-law has done over the years for all of us, I would have thought you would have viewed this as a privilege to take him into your home. Instead, you have decided that it’s too much of a burden for you and B******, and that it would cramp your life too much. You make twice the money I do, and you’re complaining about the “burden”? Hell, your house is paid for, or at least it was. B*** moving into your home is a “burden”? To me, it would have been an honor.

You have whined for years that the State of California won’t promote you to management, but I don’t see anything in your actions that show you’d make a good manager. If anything, your personality traits at home would be a prime motivation for me, were I in management, to try to get your terminated. Frankly, the fact that you had to fight to become the middle management douche that you are today suggests strongly to me that your rather appalling personality flaws have been front and center at work as much as they have been at home. They aren’t promoting you further not because you’re a Christian; they aren’t promoting you further because you’re a bigoted jackass who belittles gays, lesbians, liberals, non-Christians, the physically disabled, anyone of color, and your own family. Get a clue: No one wants to work for a jerk, and in this day and age, promoting a jerk to management is a good way to get your ass sued.

Frankly, your attitude towards Peggy and me because we’ve been divorced makes me wonder who else you’ve chosen to insult in your life. I’m still floored by your nasty remarks about the circumstances of our respective divorces, particularly since they both happened long before you entered our lives, and you had no knowledge of our prior spouses before you married B**.

See, D***, there’s a lot of difference between you and an atheist. I am barely an acquaintance of James Randi, yet this man, who has had a tremendous positive effect on our society, (which you’d know if you’d ever get your head out from between your cheeks), treated my wife with incredible respect. That was something I appreciated.

Most atheists treat my wife with respect. You don’t. If anything, you’ve treated the woman I love with incredible contempt. Why would I want to associate with you?

For that matter, what in your behavior demonstrates anything “Christlike?” Not one damned thing.

I’m done, D***. I don’t want you at my house, I don’t want to be in yours. As much as possible, I want you out of my life. I’m clearing a room for my father-in-law, where he’ll be a welcome part of my family. And when my sons realize what kind of a person you really are, maybe they’ll come home and recognize that their dad really wasn’t so stupid after all.

And if this means I’m doomed to Hell, hey, any Heaven that would want someone as creepy as you can’t really be worth shooting for, can it?

Nonsense.........and a waste of bandwidth.

Just kick 'em in the shins, and to bugger off. ;)

p.s. nice rant

[Hokulele]

Online, yes. But I could wish I could spend some time with other skeptics more often, ideally face to face.


Now that I have your contact info, hopefully we can meet up on the west coast more often. :)

[godless dave]

Excellent letter. Of course, all he'll see is "attack attack attack I'm an atheist and I hate Christians!"

It's not his hypocrisy that makes him an *******. It's that he claims that he is more moral than you while being a complete douchebag that makes him an *******.

And why is it always the people who rail against "liberals" who let little kids watch violent R-rated movies, undercut the authority of parents, won't take care of their elderly relatives, and refrain from using tough love on adult relatives who try to freeload? I thought those were all "liberal" behaviors.

[sthomson]

As for community, have you thought about Unitarian Universalist? It highly depends on the congregation, of course, but I know that some are full of atheists and agnostics looking for the sense of community they had at a Christian church.

[halofish2000]

Sorry to hear you going through this with family. It is bad enough as is but family definitely makes it tougher. You seem to have a lot of patience and compassion. These are gifts that I wish more people had. On the flip side, you are to stand up and protect your family, regardless if you are a Christian or not. Be angry and sin not. Hard, I know...but it can be done.
We had a very difficult time in my family anout 15 years ago. I think most people can vouch for their own. Simply put, a church has zero authority on what one does once the meeting has adjourned. There is NO law of tithing and no law of giving to the church. I was able to finally help my older brother understand this. Not before he was extorted thousands. If a church tells you that we are commanded to give to them turn and go to the nearest Mickey D's, drive to the beach and enjoy the view. I don't know if everything in that letter needs to be said. Would feel good to ....for a while maybe.

[Gilmar]

Even if you don't send it in this form, it's good to vent and get your thoughts down on paper (or a Word doc). Makes me glad I don't have people like that in my life.

[halofish2000]

I remember venting on my mother-in-law. Felt good. Now she is my Ex-mother-in-law.

[Roadtoad]

Sorry to hear you going through this with family. It is bad enough as is but family definitely makes it tougher. You seem to have a lot of patience and compassion. These are gifts that I wish more people had. On the flip side, you are to stand up and protect your family, regardless if you are a Christian or not. Be angry and sin not. Hard, I know...but it can be done.
We had a very difficult time in my family anout 15 years ago. I think most people can vouch for their own. Simply put, a church has zero authority on what one does once the meeting has adjourned. There is NO law of tithing and no law of giving to the church. I was able to finally help my older brother understand this. Not before he was extorted thousands. If a church tells you that we are commanded to give to them turn and go to the nearest Mickey D's, drive to the beach and enjoy the view. I don't know if everything in that letter needs to be said. Would feel good to ....for a while maybe.

I like you, Halofish. You're decent.

[PAC]

In my family it is my sister and her husband and my wife's sister and her husband. They make our lives difficult. They hurt us. I'd like to tell them all that I think. But I do not want to end my relationship with my sister (who became a fundamentalist only a few years ago) and my wife can not handle the thought of living without her sister. In my family I would be cast as the bad guy no matter how deserving they might be of my anger.

Think about the letter, hold on to it, read it in a couple of weeks. Once sent it can never be taken back. If you should regret it then you will only hurt yourself.

I am reminded of a lesson from a former boss. He told me that getting angry with people like this is like punching jello. You get all worked up, you strike,
you pull your hand back and the jello simply returns to its previous state.
Nothing changes, you're exhausted, was it worth it?



I have done some things in my life where I was absolutely right. I had every reason to do so. Yet, the regret only builds as my life wears on. Is it fair?
No. Sometimes the strength to make more modest attempts to work things out, is the better choice. I would have never said this in my twenties, thirties, forties, but now it seems to be an option.

I hope you find that path that is best for you. Good luck! If there is any comfort in knowing that others understand, I can say that my wife and I do.

[PixyMisa]

I am reminded of a lesson from a former boss. He told me that getting angry with people like this is like punching jello. You get all worked up, you strike, you pull your hand back and the jello simply returns to its previous state. Nothing changes, you're exhausted, was it worth it?
I tried this, and now I have jello on my ceiling. Thanks a bunch. :mad:

[PAC]

I tried this, and now I have jello on my ceiling. Thanks a bunch. :mad:

Sorry, I should have recommended making the jello with knox. It holds up a lot better. Just curious, was it strawberry or lime?

[fuelair]

I've still got the letter in the laptop. No, I haven't sent it, and yes, I'm seriously thinking of stating it in person. And while this will scorch out what remains of a relationship with this man, I'm thinking I wouldn't lose all that much.

My third son, Jon, is living with his aunt and uncle, but he's also looking for his own apartment at this time. Once he's moved out, we'll see about whether or not it's a smart thing to rip into my b-i-l. (Actually, SC, I owe you. You're right about making any threat of violence, and "the genius" would probably view that as actionable.) And, yes, I'm rather devoid of a community connection right now, but I've been without one for some time, particularly since we left the last church where we had membership, with a pastor who allowed the older, bigger kids to bully my younger sons. (They tried it once with the older two and got flattened.) The pastor at that church said I shouldn't interfere in this, it would make my younger sons tougher. (Sure. Jon's working to become a firefighter, and doing quite well with his classes. I can see how he's become such a WIMP...)

Things have been harder over the past few years. The latest nonsense is that Peterbilt is making multiple recommendations on how I'm supposed to drive. They offer no courses, they offer no specifics based on downloaded info from the computer, (which, oddly enough, they didn't bother to download in the first place), and much of this is simply a scattershot attempt to try and avoid any responsibility for what happened. Interestingly enough, we got some information regarding torque specs on a 379. It makes MY case, and undercuts theirs. (What's wrong with this picture?)

I note above you refer to it as a man. I truly believe that it is one only in the purest biological sense. It certainly doesn't act like one. (I have no reason to believe you have ever lied to us so I am assuming you have honestly described it's actions.) Also, Non carborundum Illegitimi!!!:)

[Btodd]

While I am sympathetic to your outlook here, I would like to support what a few others have said....get rid of the violence references, and also hold on to this for two weeks or so (as PAC said, I think).

Regardless of whether you are right or not, two weeks will hopefully let you be a bit more objective, and even though you may want to send the letter, perhaps you will tweak it to make it even better.

One thing that is important here, is that the whole family will know how this all went down, including your kids. If you want your beliefs respected, and don't want to contribute to the tiresome 'angry atheist' stereotype that will be used against you, then take the highest road possible. You can still tell him most of what you did, but in a more reasonable manner that makes it obvious that you're not getting sucked into the emotional tug-of-war he's been intent on creating. You're simply done.

My two cents. For what it's worth, I'm not in your shoes. I might have reacted much worse than you!:D


Btodd

[Oroborus]

I probably should get his backside fired, Oroborus, simply because he has the authority to make some innocent person's life miserable. Unfortunately, doing so would easily get me sued. My b-i-l is exceptionally vindictive, (hence the blocking of names). He's two years from retiring from state service, so maybe, just maybe, that would be just long enough to put up with.

I've been refusing to go to their house for any reason over the past many months. Peggy's gone alone for family gatherings, while I've used the excuse that I had a truck to work on. Seems to work for now. I'd simply rather she cut people from her life who treat her in a disrespectful manner, and if that includes her idiot sister, so be it.

Oh I was in no way suggesting an opinion on wether you should or shouldn't, that's for you to decide. I just quoted it because I believe it's phrased improperly, but maybe I read it incorrectly. I am sorry you've had to put up with the guy who seems to me to be an evil version of peter pan (some parts of you SHOULD grow up :p). I only mentioned the cutting them out of your life part because sometimes it's not only the easier thing to do, but the one that's best in the end. It especially bothers me that he claims the title of a christian. Nevermind the fact for a moment that it can't be proven, but his behavior is unnacceptable even in accordance with what he professes to believe! It's fair to add hypocrite to the list of his unflattering characteristics apparently. He may grow up sometime, but I doubt it'll be soon. You're better off without people like this in your life imo.

[Silentknight]

I have to agree with what others have said. Even if he's threatened violence against you, you shouldn't retaliate with threats of violence of your own. Enumerate your grievances, insult him right back, be brutally honest, and tell him exactly what you think about him. But leave the violence out. In this way, you leave him to expose himself for the kind of person he really is because he's already shown his true colors. At the worst, your threats may end up giving him an ad hoc justification for his actions, which is something I'm sure you don't want.

This actually the basis for the Christian moral of turning the other cheek. It doesn't mean that you should bend over and let people bully and steamroll you; it means you should not escalate a conflict any worse than it already is. Let the wrongdoing he has already committed speak for itself. You can be the better man by not retaliating in kind.

[Susan Gerbic]

Now that I have your contact info, hopefully we can meet up on the west coast more often. :)

Hey, I'm on the very most West Coast! I agree, the best thing is to seek out and meet each other. I am almost the only atheist in town, very rarely do I see another Darwin Fish.

Jeff Wagg is trying to get enough people together to do a cruise (for social reasons only, no lectures scheduled) The week after Mother's Day, leaving from the L.A. area. The price is about $450 per person, that includes everything but getting to and from the cruise ship, includes tips and food. You only need to pay for any extras you might want to buy on shore.

Susan

[kmortis]

RT,
Good letter. Do what you gotta do then come back and we'll have the tacos waiting for ya. I might be stuck out here on the East Coast, but we can get together here and share that, eh?

[Blue Mountain]

I agree with the other posters here about removing the threats of violence. I wonder, too, if the letter would benefit from a less confrontational tone. It's obvious you're very upset at D's interference and influence in your children's lives. Would simply saying so without provocative lines like "SHUT THE **** UP" actually be a more powerful way of stating your case?

[fuelair]

I agree with the other posters here about removing the threats of violence. I wonder, too, if the letter would benefit from a less confrontational tone. It's obvious you're very upset at D's interference and influence in your children's lives. Would simply saying so without provocative lines like "SHUT THE **** UP" actually be a more powerful way of stating your case?
A certain old story/joke may well apply here:
There was a farmer, who sold his mule to another farmer. The mule didn't want to move, so, the farmer called the guy who sold it up to complain. The other farmer came over said "Gee" and said "Haw" and nothing happened. Mule just sat there. So he went over to the barn got a 2x4 out, and WHAM! whacked the mule over the head with the 2x4. Then the mule started to to work. "If you want the mule to work,' the farmer said, 'you gotta get its attention first."

[dglas]

Sometimes there is simply no alternative. One must cut the poison out of one's life and move on. I know this only too well, and I know how difficult it can be.

Do what you have to to protect your family. They are being abused and they need your strength. But don't let rage conquer you - that will hurt you more than it will hurt him.

I wish you and yours well, Roadtoad.

[plumjam]

[QUOTE]As has been noted before, I used to be a Christian. Now, I'm an Atheist.

Plumjam's latest bit of self-adulatory drama provoked this letter to my brother-in-law. Considering he's every bit as big a jerk as Plumjam, it seems to fit. If there are parallels to Plumjam beyond this, it's coincidental, but not a surprise.

Roadtoad, seeing as you seem to believe I'm some kind of cyberspace doppelganger for your brother in law, instead of sending this letter to him and causing a complete family rift just PM it to me instead.
I will absorb all the anger and the threats of violence. No worries.

Go fishing with him or something. People are very rarely as good or as bad as our imaginations are wont to make them out to be.
Good luck.

[tim]

Nice one, RT!

[this charming man]

RoadToad, I do not know if your hauls bring you through Tallahassee; however, if they do, I would be honored to have a beer/coffee with you.

[halofish2000]

Wow, you atheists are beginning to sound like good Christians LOL.

[fuelair]

Wow, you atheists are beginning to sound like good Christians LOL.No offense, good people , not good xtians.
Truly good people manage to be good -often in spite of their religion or politics, or philosophy.:)

[Roadtoad]

Roadtoad, seeing as you seem to believe I'm some kind of cyberspace doppelganger for your brother in law, instead of sending this letter to him and causing a complete family rift just PM it to me instead.
I will absorb all the anger and the threats of violence. No worries.

Go fishing with him or something. People are very rarely as good or as bad as our imaginations are wont to make them out to be.
Good luck.

Why? I don't see how it would have any positive effect by sending it to you.

As far as taking him fishing, I tried that. I'll never make that mistake again. I don't groove on hanging out with cruel people.

Frankly, it seems to me that I would be better off taking some of the advice from some of the other posters here. And Halofish had some pretty good advice he sent in a PM. (Thanks, HF2K.) If anything, rather than perpetuating abuse, I'm gratified by words from people who are helping to bring an end to it. Shouldn't that be the primary goal?

[sthomson]

You gotta do what you gotta do, Roadtoad, and thanks for sharing with us.

But, I gotta say, let your wife do what she gotta do, too, you know? To you, her sister is stupid and her brother in law is cruel and hateful, but to HER, they're family. She has years and years of emotions and memories and obligations invested in her sister, and I don't think you should fault her for continuing the relationship despite the man her sister chose to marry.

[halofish2000]

I don't think RoadToad fault's his wife at all. But, there is only so much that any respectable man will allow before he has to stand up. Most of the abuse is coming in the form of verbal assaults. I know of a bully who is no more than 5ft7 and is 62 years old. Not that I advocate physical violence but a good threat in secret usually gets them off offence. Being consistent in your message and never allowing this to continue may not get through to him but it will let him know you have drawn the line in the sand. Then ,of course, nothing shocks a Christian more than telling them in public that their actions are not Christ like.

[fuelair]

I don't think RoadToad fault's his wife at all. But, there is only so much that any respectable man will allow before he has to stand up. Most of the abuse is coming in the form of verbal assaults. I know of a bully who is no more than 5ft7 and is 62 years old. Not that I advocate physical violence but a good threat in secret usually gets them off offence. Being consistent in your message and never allowing this to continue may not get through to him but it will let him know you have drawn the line in the sand. Then ,of course, nothing shocks a Christian more than telling them in public that their actions are not Christ like.
I do advocate physical violence - especially if you can use carefully chosen words to get them to initiate it. They often cannot understand anything else - and often once crushed thoroughly they remain crushed. I have no interest in their psychology except as it can be used against them.

[sthomson]

I don't think RoadToad fault's his wife at all. But, there is only so much that any respectable man will allow before he has to stand up.

I was responding to this comment by Roadtoad:

I'd simply rather she cut people from her life who treat her in a disrespectful manner, and if that includes her idiot sister, so be it.

Upon re-reading it, the comment sounds much less harsh than I remember, but my concerns are still valid. RoadToad has his (justified) reasons for cutting off ties to his family-in-law, and RoadToad's wife has her (justifiable) reasons for maintaining contact with them.

[pgwenthold]

"Piggy"?

Wow, I think we stopped using that slur on "Peggy" in, what, 3rd grade?

[Wildy]

It's always good to get things off your chest. I know from experience what can happen if you let your rage build up, not a pretty sight.

I've still got the letter in the laptop. No, I haven't sent it, and yes, I'm seriously thinking of stating it in person. And while this will scorch out what remains of a relationship with this man, I'm thinking I wouldn't lose all that much.

Well saying it in person would give you the best pleasure, but have you considered more impersonal ways if you really want to insult the guy more then anything?

But in person is probably the best but it is also more likely to be the way that will be twisted out of context. You said in the letter (and in the post that I am quoting) that you have a son that is clearly under the influence of this git, and you may find that he will manipulate the event to make you come off as a person who is far worse then you actually are.

What confuses me though is how you can have a son under the influence of someone who clearly belittles him.

...particularly since we left the last church where we had membership, with a pastor who allowed the older, bigger kids to bully my younger sons. (They tried it once with the older two and got flattened.) The pastor at that church said I shouldn't interfere in this, it would make my younger sons tougher.

I hate people who think that way. It's just wrong. The only thing that I think that I have managed to get after being bullied is a whole lot of anti-social aspects.

I do advocate physical violence - especially if you can use carefully chosen words to get them to initiate it. They often cannot understand anything else - and often once crushed thoroughly they remain crushed. I have no interest in their psychology except as it can be used against them.

Except that you shouldn't really want to physically fight people. I guess it also depends on your feelings towards the person at this point in time. If that letter contains fully the feelings of Roadtoad towards this pillock then I wouldn't want to encourage the use of words that would incite violence.

I personally would find and learn quotes from the holy text that he follows that say he should act in the manner he does and see if his head implodes.

[halofish2000]

Fuelair, I know what you mean. While I don't advocate physical violence, I have never let anyone put their hands on me without me doing my best to protect myself. Besides, I don't like getting sued. Which is highly likely if you hurt someone bad enough. Too much to lose.

[cbish]

Online, yes. But I could wish I could spend some time with other skeptics more often, ideally face to face. Hey, I'm only 45 min. away. If you know you're coming up this way, PM me. (you may want to wait for the snow to melt).

Having gone through this type of things with family (not necessarily religion) may I make a suggestion? I'd tone it down a little. I sent a letter like this to some relatives but I wrote two letters. One like yours, which was extremely theraputic (which was the real intent of the letter). Then, I sent an edited version. It was a little more formal and distant. I tried to be unemotional and just deal with the facts. I didn't want to sound 'out of control'.

Also, and maybe somebody else asked this, but, what do you want to have happen? Do you want to break off all ties? Do you want to modify his behavior towards you?

[Roadtoad]

Overdue update:

After a couple of trying contacts with my B-i-L, and one where he shot his mouth off once more, (and nearly got it closed), Peggy pulled her sister aside and had a few (choice) words with her. It came down to this: Either D*** shuts up, or I'm on the verge of shutting him up. It is no longer "funny," it's gone beyond insulting. Enough.

My S-i-L then made the same excuses, that I'm the one who's hypersensitive, I need to be more "forgiving," etc. It didn't wash this time.

He's now avoiding me.

And to my mind, that's good.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Can I be honest? I don't know you or your relatives but I think you might have done better to a) dismiss whatever beef you have with them from your mind and accept and ignore a few things, b) rather than declaring a separation, put a little necessary distance between them and your family.

You've made me appreciate my Christian relatives and family friends a little more with your letter. I've often been just as irritated and frustrated at them as you are, for many of the exact same reasons, but it's true that they really weren't as bad as my imagination often made them out to be.

It was unhealthy to spend too much time with some of them...but having to put up with some stuff once in a while wasn't so bad. It's a waste of time to spend so much anger on these things.

Unloading on the man about his job and personal life? It's unfair and irrelevant. That's something you certainly think of doing with someone like that and want to say ("Oh yeah, and about your work? That's why no one there likes you!") but not something you should actually do.

Edit: ...but obviously, it's your life and not mine and you know what's best for yourself.

[devnull]

isnt it ironic that many atheists understand christianity better than some christians?

Your BIL reminds me of my friend's (now departed) grandmother. Rapidly catholic, she would curse people all week, and pretty much act like the definition of the C word. Then, come Sunday, she would go to confession and all was forgiven, just in time to start another week of spewing bile at everyone.

It's not up to you to be more "forgiving" - it is up to them to stop being ********.

[Jackalgirl]

Are there varying degrees and levels of hypocrites? Is a Christian Hypocrite worse than a Buhddist, Muslim, Jewish, Diest, Panthiest, or Athiest Hypocrite?

I guess it kind of depends, at least IMO, on the level of certitude of the hypocrite. That is, the more certain that the hypocrite is (and the more certain he/she is that everyone else is scum because they don't hold the same beliefs), the worse it is when they don't live in accordance with their certitude.

For me, it doesn't matter what the origin of the certitude is. It's just that evangelical Christians (in particular) have the requirement to be outspoken about their faith built into their religion, so we seem to hear them more. Fundamentalist Muslims also (ever see the Green Lane Mosque undercover story?).

Also, not all evangelical Christians hold that people who don't believe the way they do are "scum", or at least don't behave that way -- though I have yet to meet one who truly believes that other ways of relating to God (or not relating, as the case may be) are actually valid. Then again, I don't actually go around asking, so the lack of knowledge may be my own fault. : )

[Roadtoad]

Can I be honest? I don't know you or your relatives but I think you might have done better to a) dismiss whatever beef you have with them from your mind and accept and ignore a few things, b) rather than declaring a separation, put a little necessary distance between them and your family.

You've made me appreciate my Christian relatives and family friends a little more with your letter. I've often been just as irritated and frustrated at them as you are, for many of the exact same reasons, but it's true that they really weren't as bad as my imagination often made them out to be.

It was unhealthy to spend too much time with some of them...but having to put up with some stuff once in a while wasn't so bad. It's a waste of time to spend so much anger on these things.

Unloading on the man about his job and personal life? It's unfair and irrelevant. That's something you certainly think of doing with someone like that and want to say ("Oh yeah, and about your work? That's why no one there likes you!") but not something you should actually do.

Edit: ...but obviously, it's your life and not mine and you know what's best for yourself.

Two points:

1.) I'm very glad you get along with your family. You should be able to. But when the relationship is so toxic, so abusive, it interferes with your ability to function in a rational manner, it's time to put some distance between yourself and that person.

I offer no apologies for separating myself and my wife from D***. And for all his claims of "belief," I can genuinely read through the Bible and show anyone, verse by verse, where he is downright wrong. (And, as Dev pointed out, it's more than a little despicable to behave like a jerk during the week, then turn around on Sunday and try to play Saint.)

2.) The problem is that he pulls the same crap at work. Then he bleats about not getting promoted in his job with the State of California. It is not only a part of his professional and personal life, it's so ingrained in his behavior, such a constant, that he has yet to figure out that it's affecting every area of his life. My Father-in-Law, who's one of the kindest people you'd want to spend time with, doesn't want to be in the same room with him for any longer than he has to. My wife's Mormon step-family is so offended by his behavior they refuse to come to family gatherings if he's going to be there. (I get invited. They know I've walked away from religion and still want to be around me. Go fig.)

If you're going to open your mouth about how you're being "persecuted" for being a Christian, (rather than facing up to the fact that you're a jackass), you'd better expect a response. And if you have any honesty, don't expect it to be pleasant.

[PAC]

Earlier in this thread I advised Raodtaod to think it over and be careful.

Well, my situation got worse this summer and I let fly with e-mails to my
sister and brother-in-law. I felt better, they needed to be told. A couple of weeks later my brother-in-law was diagnosed with cancer. He died a couple of weeks after the diagnosis as a result of complications from surgery.

I wish I had listened to my own advise. Too late now. I am seen as the ass
and can never repair the damage. I was right, but that really doesn't help.

Try to ignore and go on.

[bokonon]

Earlier in this thread I advised Raodtaod to think it over and be careful.

Well, my situation got worse this summer and I let fly with e-mails to my
sister and brother-in-law. I felt better, they needed to be told. A couple of weeks later my brother-in-law was diagnosed with cancer. He died a couple of weeks after the diagnosis as a result of complications from surgery.

I wish I had listened to my own advise. Too late now. I am seen as the ass
and can never repair the damage. I was right, but that really doesn't help.

Try to ignore and go on.
Why beat yourself up about it? I don't know what you said that needed to be said, but your letter didn't give your brother-in-law cancer. Your sister isn't dead, so if there is damage that needs to be repaired, it isn't necessarily beyond repair. If she feels the need to hold a grudge, chances are she'd be holding it twice as tightly if your brother-in-law was there to reinforce the righteous indignation or whatever they were throwing at you.

You can't reach some people. If they were toxic and disinclined to change, having them out of your life may be better for all concerned. If they were toxic, but your sister is willing to consider what you said, maybe it's good that you said it.

Maybe you regret what you did, and if you hadn't, you'd regret what you didn't do. What's done is done. If there are reasons to retract what you said, you can do so. You can be there for your sister who is now a widow. I don't know your situation, but I don't see the value in beating yourself up with regret.

[Soapy Sam]

PAC - It's not your fault you're not psychic. An ass is an ass, living or deceased.

RT- I think you have to assume your bil has seen this.
It's an open forum.
I have relatives I avoid- not because they are bad people, but because, genes aside, I have nothing in common with them. I see no reason to needlessly complicate my life, or theirs.
Don't lose the high ground. If the guy annoys you so much, drop all contact and leave it at that. Make no threats of any kind. Just stop all contact. He writes, bin it. He calls, hang up. He knocks the door, don't get up. Even an idiot will get the message.

[Roadtoad]

I'm not sure that he hasn't, Sam. My son, Jon, has seen this, agreed with it, but hasn't said anything overt about it. But at the same time, D*** is making an effort to avoid me.

Just as well. I'm sick of dealing with his abuse.

Having said this, PAC, I don't see how you can be held responsible for this at all. If your BiL was that bad, it was probably overdue. I think one of the mistakes we make is that we seem to think by "keeping the peace," we're doing everyone a favor. We're not. Allowing someone to continue to abuse because we don't want to face a conflict not only delays a conflict, but also compounds the eventual blow-up. I understand where you're coming from, but you cannot hold yourself to account for your BiL's decision to engage in verbal or emotional brutality.

He died of Cancer? Sorry to hear it. Send a nice card, maybe flowers if they're appropriate, but in the end, I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep over this. Your sister chose to tolerate his abusive behavior towards another family member. I know there's filial love to be considered, but at some point, if it isn't returned, such as your sister insisting that her rude husband quit acting like a jerk, I have to wonder if you're losing all that much. To my mind, I don't think so.

But that's me, and I could well be wrong.

I have gotten to a point in my life where I refuse to accept abuse. It's every bit as wrong as the abuse itself. And justifying that abuse, saying "you just don't have a sense of humor," or trying to skirt around the central issue claiming one's family ties, is simply dishonest and wrong.

I'm sorry for this loss. I wish it hadn't happened, but it has. As I said, I'd sent a nice card, leave things open for reconciliation, and maybe even take some time for a visit. If your e-mails come up, maybe you might say, "I wasn't aware of the illness; I'm sorry it came out when it did, and that it caused you unnecessary pain." Personally, I wouldn't introduce the subject.

OTOH, if there's a lot of carping and complaining about it, I'd wait until the sound and the fury died down, then ask, "If someone else had said the same sort of thing to you, how would you have reacted?" If they can't figure it out from there, I can't say as you're losing that much. Harsh? Probably. And as I said, I might be wrong.

But why should anyone put up with abuse, especially from a member of the family?