Right of Return (Palestinians) -- After You're Dead

[webfusion]

This probably doesn't deserve a thread of its own, but what the heck, it's a slow news day:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/950408.html
George Habash, the founder of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (a terrorist organization), who died last week, "must be buried in Lod, his birthplace" according to demands voiced by Israeli Knesset politician MK Jamal Zahalka (Balad faction chairman).
He was buried last week in Jordan, where he passed away at the age of 81.

The PFLP was responsible for gunning down 27 people at Israel's Lod airport in May 1972, as well as the infamous commercial-airline hijackings in 1970.
Throughout his life, he supported the use of violence against Israel.


So, now that he's dead, apparently some people wish to make use of his corpse as a symbol for the "Right of Return" that 11-million palestinians claim.

[fuelair]

So, bury him under the one of airport's restrooms.

[mrbaracuda]

So they want to dig him up again? Eew. He's probably not even in a coffin, right? EEW!

[The Fool]

you can never be too carefull. This dead guy may try something sneaky.


edit to add....Web,when the British returned the bodies of two of your terrorists in 1975..Eliahu Bet-Zouri and Eliahu Hakim... you gave them state funerals...what were you trying to use thier corpses as a symbol for?

[webfusion]

Hmmmmmmm, you really had to dig pretty deep into the archives for those two unique jewish examples, hey, T-F?

In 1975, the bodies of Bet Zouri and Hakim were returned to Israel in exchange for twenty Egyptian war prisoners from Gaza and Sinai. Israel considered that these men had acted in pursuit of direct military orders (of LEHI) and they were accorded military honors.

I don't believe that Israelis in the streets today could even tell you who Bet Zouri and Hakim were. They are not "symbols" of anything, really. So an Israeli Postal Stamp was issued --- you know, the Israeli Postal Department prints stamps for all kinds of things:

Like this literary hero -- Mapu.
http://www.lituanicaonstamps.com/images/izraelis_mapu.jpg

[webfusion]

Another stamp issued by the State of Israel:
http://www.clevelandjewishhistory.net/silver/images/ahs-stamp-180.jpg
Rabbi Abba Hillel Silver
http://www.clevelandjewishhistory.net/silver/recognition.html

These are the types of men that Israelis today remember and are well-aware of ----- not Bet Zouri and Hakim.

[webfusion]

Another stamp issued by the State of Israel:

http://www.lituanicaonstamps.com/images/israelis_1985_zukermann.jpg
Yitzhak Zuckerman "Antek" (1915-1983) - leader of the ghetto fighters - came to symbolize the Jews' fight for freedom against the Nazis. (Pictured in the stamp with his wife, Zivia Lubetkin.)

T-F, you must realize that these are individuals that Israelis consider as being our heroes.

[fuelair]

Another stamp issued by the State of Israel:

http://www.lituanicaonstamps.com/images/israelis_1985_zukermann.jpg
Yitzhak Zuckerman "Antek" (1915-1983) - leader of the ghetto fighters - came to symbolize the Jews' fight for freedom against the Nazis. (Pictured in the stamp with his wife, Zivia Lubetkin.)
.

May he be long remembered!!




W18/VC

[The Fool]

T-F, you must realize that these are individuals that Israelis consider as being our heroes.
So you give state funerals to terrorists and put the leader of thier terrorist group on a stamp. Look web, thats your business but I think its a bit rich when you react with indignation when someone else does it...(or tries to do it).

[mrbaracuda]

So you give state funerals to terrorists and put the leader of thier terrorist group on a stamp. Look web, thats your business but I think its a bit rich when you react with indignation when someone else does it...(or tries to do it).

Who's this leader you're talking about and what did he lead? :confused: Care to point me at it? :)

[The Fool]

Who's this leader you're talking about and what did he lead? :confused: Care to point me at it? :)

Avraham Stern.

[webfusion]

#1. "Yair" (Avraham) Stern was excecuted by the British on Feb 12 1942. His contribution to the freedom of Israel was recognized in 1978, by a stamp, and the description of the LEHI as a 'terrorist' group is highly debatable. His activities in the years of Word War Two were certainly not accepted by the 'mainstream' of the Yishuv, although his heart was in the right place, trying to help jews escape the Nazi Holocaust.

#2. "al-Hakim" (George) Habash created an organization that holds a firm position regarding Israel, demanding its complete eradication as a racist state through military struggle. While he may be considered a "hero" to palestinians, (many of whom would like nothing better than to have the work of the Nazis continued, in the complete eradication of the jews), it would be very strange for Israel to agree to "honoring" Habash, under the circumstances.
In my opinion, as a symbol for the palestinians, he leaves a lot to be desired.


In any case, it is always a matter of subjectivity when countries put "heroes" on their stamps (Here is a current example from the USA):

http://asapblogs.typepad.com/news/images/2007/07/24/super_hero_stamps_gill.jpg

[fuelair]

#1. "Yair" (Avraham) Stern was excecuted by the British on Feb 12 1942. His contribution to the freedom of Israel was recognized in 1978, by a stamp, and the description of the LEHI as a 'terrorist' group is highly debatable. His activities in the years of Word War Two were certainly not accepted by the 'mainstream' of the Yishuv, although his heart was in the right place, trying to help jews escape the Nazi Holocaust.

]

On the Stern Gang, on the other hand, we must, respectfully, disagree. I would have executed them too. I do think the British had some bad ideas. That does not justify their murders.

[webfusion]

I would have executed them too. I do think the British had some bad ideas. That does not justify their murders.

I'm not sure who you are referring to here -- Yair Stern himself (who was never tried, but rather shot in cold blood during his arrest), or the assassins of Lord Moyne? (Ben Zouri and Hakim)...

In any case, the jews were between a rock and a hard place, with the Nazis on the one side (eviscerating their lives), and the British on the other (restricting immigration and escape from Europe). Some of those organizations acted in a radical fashion, to be sure.

George Habash always argued that negotiating and compromising with Israel was useless (and he declared that it shouldn't even be tried). This is where the palestinian terror factions err.
In my opinion.

They don't want their own state alongside Israel.
They want a palestinian state INSTEAD of Israel.

[a_unique_person]

I'm not sure who you are referring to here -- Yair Stern himself (who was never tried, but rather shot in cold blood during his arrest), or the assassins of Lord Moyne? (Ben Zouri and Hakim)...

In any case, the jews were between a rock and a hard place, with the Nazis on the one side (eviscerating their lives), and the British on the other (restricting immigration and escape from Europe). Some of those organizations acted in a radical fashion, to be sure.

George Habash always argued that negotiating and compromising with Israel was useless (and he declared that it shouldn't even be tried). This is where the palestinian terror factions err.
In my opinion.

They don't want their own state alongside Israel.
They want a palestinian state INSTEAD of Israel.

But you defend of the principal of terrorism being justifiable.

[fuelair]

I'm not sure who you are referring to here -- Yair Stern himself (who was never tried, but rather shot in cold blood during his arrest), or the assassins of Lord Moyne? (Ben Zouri and Hakim)...

In any case, the jews were between a rock and a hard place, with the Nazis on the one side (eviscerating their lives), and the British on the other (restricting immigration and escape from Europe). Some of those organizations acted in a radical fashion, to be sure.

George Habash always argued that negotiating and compromising with Israel was useless (and he declared that it shouldn't even be tried). This is where the palestinian terror factions err.
In my opinion.

They don't want their own state alongside Israel.
They want a palestinian state INSTEAD of Israel.I have no problem at all with Israel and what they are doing with the Palestineans (etc.) (which, if you have read previous posts you would know!!) I just have an absolute thing about terrorists.

[webfusion]

But you defend of the principal of terrorism being justifiable.

Not at all.
I defend "underground" freedom forces in wartime.


The palestinian radicals refuse to negotiate because they aren't interested in peace. At all.

[The Fool]

Not at all.
I defend "underground" freedom forces in wartime.



your capacity to magnanimously forgive yourself is very heartwarming.

Tell me web...when they assasinated Count Folke Bernadotte, a UN envoy sent to broker peace....do you defend that too?

[webfusion]

The Swedish diplomat entered into a war zone, and started playing with fire. He got burned.
(His plan, by the way, was for Israel to relinquish Jerusalem).

The Arab world rejected the Bernadotte plan on the grounds that, as Syrian officer Muhammad Nimr al-Khatib said, "Most of these mediators are spies for the Jews anyway."

On the other side of the coin:
LEHI called Bernadotte "a British agent who had cooperated with the Nazis in World War II."

I don't 'defend' his assassination, but under the circumstances, I think your comparisons here to Habash are vile.

The Israeli government subsequently cracked down on LEHI, arresting many of its members and confiscating their arms. LEHI disbanded, largely due to public condemnation.

Now, where are the condemnations of PFLP? Are there any?

[The Fool]

I don't 'defend' his assassination, but under the circumstances, I think your comparisons here to Habash are vile.


you don't think its fair to compare two groups giving terrorists state funerals? Read that again web.....I'm comparing your indignation at some Palestinians wanting to make an event out of burying a terrorist...compared to your sudden tap dancing and sideshuffling when it comes to state funerals for terrorists... and terrorist leaders on national stamps and weasel words used to rationalise the murder of Bernadotte...a man who saved the lives of many many Jews in WW2.

from his wiki entry.

Folke Bernadotte, Count of Wisborg (2 January 1895 – 17 September 1948), was a Swedish diplomat noted for his negotiation of the release of about 15,000 prisoners from German concentration camps during World War II.[1] In 1945, he received a German surrender offer from Heinrich Himmler, though the offer was ultimately rejected.

After the war, Bernadotte was unanimously chosen by the victorious powers to be the United Nations Security Council mediator in the Arab-Israeli conflict of 1947-1948. He was assassinated in Jerusalem in 1948 by members of the underground Zionist terrorist group Lehi while pursuing his official duties.



ETA: Note the 15000 figure....schindler saved 1200 Jews and has Justifiably become an international hero... Unfortunately because Bernadotte was murdered by one of your terrorists you lose interest in his record of saving Jews from the Holocaust and would rather parrot the Terrorist organisations claims he was a british agent and had co-operated with Nazis.... Have a good look at yourself.

[Mycroft]

you don't think its fair to compare two groups giving terrorists state funerals? Read that again web.....I'm comparing your indignation at some Palestinians wanting to make an event out of burying a terrorist...

I don't see anywhere where Webfusion objects to the Palestinians giving George Habash a state funeral. I think both of us would be surprised if Palestinian-Arabs didn't honor him in some way.

He seems to be (rightly, in my opinion) pointing out the absurdity of demanding that Israel honor the guy by allowing his remains to be buried at Lod.

To make a valid comparison between him and Eliahu Bet-Zouri and Eliahu Hakim, Israel would have to demand that those guys be buried and honored in the United Kingdom.

Now, do you think it's reasonable to demand that a nation, any nation, honor someone famous for killing its citizens?

[ddt]

The Swedish diplomat entered into a war zone, and started playing with fire. He got burned.
(His plan, by the way, was for Israel to relinquish Jerusalem).
[...]
On the other side of the coin:
LEHI called Bernadotte "a British agent who had cooperated with the Nazis in World War II."

I don't 'defend' his assassination, but under the circumstances, I think your comparisons here to Habash are vile.
It seems though pretty much as if you are defending, or at least whitewashing the assassination of Bernadotte. Saying "he got burned" definitely cuts that in my book.

The Fool already pointed out Bernadotte's efforts during WW2 to save Jews.

Saying he wanted the Israelis to relinquish Jerusalem? Yeah, that was to be an international zone in the UN partition plan. So what's the problem?

I must very heartily laugh at Lehi's chutzpah in calling Bernadotte a Nazi cooperator. Of all parties, it was Lehi that sought contact with the Nazis!

The Israeli government subsequently cracked down on LEHI, arresting many of its members and confiscating their arms. LEHI disbanded, largely due to public condemnation.
And with what effect? Pray tell me, what sentence did Bernadotte's assassins get? None, though they were known to the Israeli government. That's not a crack-down, that's tacit approval of the assassination.

And what happened to Lehi's leader? He became prime minster.

[webfusion]

ETA: Note the 15000 figure....schindler saved 1200 Jews and has Justifiably become an international hero... Unfortunately because Bernadotte was murdered by one of your terrorists you lose interest in his record of saving Jews from the Holocaust and would rather parrot the Terrorist organisations claims he was a british agent and had co-operated with Nazis.... Have a good look at yourself.

A. I don't think that he saved 15000 jews. I've read the material on Bernadotte, and his aim was to free Scandinavians, in the 'White Buses' operation. In that, he also saved several hundreds of jews, to be sure. Was he a hero? I have no idea. History may tell us that he was.
Without a doubt, he cooperated with Himmler.

B. He was not murdered by one of "my" terrorists -- he was murdered during the pursuit of a war campaign by a small well-organized political and military organization to prevent him from assisting the Arabs in gaining ground in a war. As Shamir would himself say:" All the men we went for individually — Wilkin, Martin, MacMichael and others — were personally interested in succeeding in the fight against us."

C. The smallest by far of any of the Jewish armed groups during the Mandatory era, LEHI never attracted more than a few hundred followers, and was reviled by most other Jews.

D. Habash was a symbol of palestinian terror, raw brutality, and indiscriminate violence, and nothing else. He is on a par with Osama BinLaden. The hell with him.

[a_unique_person]

A. I don't think that he saved 15000 jews. I've read the material on Bernadotte, and his aim was to free Scandinavians, in the 'White Buses' operation. In that, he also saved several hundreds of jews, to be sure. Was he a hero? I have no idea. History may tell us that he was.
Without a doubt, he cooperated with Himmler.

B. He was not murdered by one of "my" terrorists -- he was murdered during the pursuit of a war campaign by a small well-organized political and military organization to prevent him from assisting the Arabs in gaining ground in a war. As Shamir would himself say:" All the men we went for individually — Wilkin, Martin, MacMichael and others — were personally interested in succeeding in the fight against us."

C. The smallest by far of any of the Jewish armed groups during the Mandatory era, LEHI never attracted more than a few hundred followers, and was reviled by most other Jews.

D. Habash was a symbol of palestinian terror, raw brutality, and indiscriminate violence, and nothing else. He is on a par with Osama BinLaden. The hell with him.

from wiki

[/quote]


In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II) on the side of Nazi Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany). It offered assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Naftali_Lubenchik&action=edit) was sent to Beirut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beirut) where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Otto_von_Hentig). Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations.

[/quote]


Yet Shamir became PM.

[The Fool]

The smallest by far of any of the Jewish armed groups during the Mandatory era, LEHI never attracted more than a few hundred followers, and was reviled by most other Jews.


The revulsion must have died down somewhat by 1980 when all serving members were awarded a military decoration.

http://www.medals.org.uk/israel/israel015.htm

[webfusion]

The revulsion must have died down somewhat by 1980 when all serving members were awarded a military decoration.

We've already established that the State of Israel did indeed issue commemorative stamps and that the assassins of Lord Moyne were accorded a military burial at Mt Herzl, several decades after the events.

It may be that the palestinians are so enamored of the PFLP that they wish to bring over the body of Habash and offer him some full measure of recognition whenever they establish their own State (if that ever happens). That's their decision, of course.
However, to ask Israel to help in honorong the PFLP, is pretty lame.

Especially when, just yesterday, the PFLP claimed responsibility for a horrific murderous bombing in the shopping mall of Dimona.


(UPDATE: There is some confusion about just who the bombers were. This morning, HAMAS is stepping forward to boast of their accomplishment as the planners of the homicide-attack, and palestinian sources are indicating that the 2 young men involved are from Hebron --- one of them being named as Mohammed al-Hirbawi. However, yesterday, immediately after the explosions, the PFLP announced that their men were the perpetrators, and named Luay Laghwani, 22, from the Sabra neighborhood in Gaza, and Musa Khalil Arafat, 24, from Abasan, Gaza. The PFLP spokesman released pre-prepared videos of the two, reading their "last wills" prior to embarking on the mission with bombs strapped to their bodies.
If I was to guess why there are conflicting reports ---- the Dimona mall bombing was the work of HAMAS, and the PFLP guys are still out there somewhere, seeking an opportunity to blow themselves up against innocent Israeli citizens.)

[webfusion]

Speaking of revulsion:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D040208/gaza_cel040208.jpg
A Palestinian boy handing out sweets to celebrate the suicide attack on Dimona. (Reuters)

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Speaking of revulsion:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D040208/gaza_cel040208.jpg
A Palestinian boy handing out sweets to celebrate the suicide attack on Dimona. (Reuters)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D040208/gaza_cel040208.jpg
A Palestinian boy handing out sweets to a hungry old woman.

Wow information warfare is easy!

LLH

[LordoftheLeftHand]

But you defend of the principal of terrorism being justifiable.

Yes both sides have a history of terrorism. Both sides are currently involved in terrorism. In fact most countries do (the United States included). It is horrible but that is the way the world works, at least for now.

LLH

[webfusion]

A Palestinian boy handing out sweets to a hungry old woman.

Wow information warfare is easy!


I'm not sure why you posted this. What are you attempting to illustrate?
That a palestinian attack in Dimona against Israelis was the result of the palestinians being blockaded in gaza? Is that what you wish for us to believe?

[LordoftheLeftHand]

I'm not sure why you posted this. What are you attempting to illustrate?
That a palestinian attack in Dimona against Israelis was the result of the palestinians being blockaded in gaza? Is that what you wish for us to believe?

I was just trying to illustrate that all that photo really shows is a boy giving something (likely food) to some women.

LLH

[webfusion]

I was just trying to illustrate that all that photo really shows is a boy giving something (likely food) to some women.


The photo shows the distribution of sweets by children as symbols of joy at the killing and maiming of jews in a shopping mall in the Israeli city of Dimona yesterday.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3502572,00.html
--- Gaza motorists receiving the flowers and treats and sweets also honked their horns in triumph and celebration.

(ADDITIONAL PHOTO LINK)
http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/02012008/1369890/MJS04_wh.jpg


Is there anything else you wish to bring into this discussion, or are you just here to snipe?

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Is there anything else you wish to bring into this discussion, or are you just here to snipe?
Naw, I'm just here to snipe.

LLH

[E.J.Armstrong]

Hmmmmmmm, you really had to dig pretty deep into the archives for those two unique jewish examples, hey, T-F?

In 1975, the bodies of Bet Zouri and Hakim were returned to Israel in exchange for twenty Egyptian war prisoners from Gaza and Sinai. Israel considered that these men had acted in pursuit of direct military orders (of LEHI) and they were accorded military honors.

I don't believe that Israelis in the streets today could even tell you who Bet Zouri and Hakim were. They are not "symbols" of anything, really. So an Israeli Postal Stamp was issued --- you know, the Israeli Postal Department prints stamps for all kinds of things:

Like this literary hero -- Mapu.
http://www.lituanicaonstamps.com/images/izraelis_mapu.jpg

Don't forget the terrorists elected to be president.

[E.J.Armstrong]

your capacity to magnanimously forgive yourself is very heartwarming.

Tell me web...when they assasinated Count Folke Bernadotte, a UN envoy sent to broker peace....do you defend that too?

He is not against terrorism.

He loves his own terrorists.

It's just other people's terrorists that he dislikes.

He still doesn't get that when he justifies the actions of his own terrorists he is implicitly justifying the actions of every other terrorist.

[JoeEllison]

Naw, I'm just here to snipe.

LLH
Awesome!

[webfusion]

E-J declares: Don't forget the terrorists elected to be president.

Here are the Presidents of the State of Israel. Which are the terrorists you are referring to?

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/government/personalities/presidents/
Chaim Weizmann 1949-1952
Itzhak Ben-Zvi 1952-1963
Zalman Shazar 1963-1973
Ephraim Katzir 1973-1978
Yitzhak Navon 1978-1983
Chaim Herzog 1983-1993
Ezer Weizman 1993-2000
Moshe Katsav 2000-2007
Shimon Peres 2007-

[The Fool]

E-J declares:

Here are the Presidents of the State of Israel. Which are the terrorists you are referring to?

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/government/personalities/presidents/
Chaim Weizmann 1949-1952
Itzhak Ben-Zvi 1952-1963
Zalman Shazar 1963-1973
Ephraim Katzir 1973-1978
Yitzhak Navon 1978-1983
Chaim Herzog 1983-1993
Ezer Weizman 1993-2000
Moshe Katsav 2000-2007
Shimon Peres 2007-
Hmmm, I suspect EJ may have meant to say Prime Minister.

[webfusion]

I suspect you're correct, T-F.

[steverino]

He loves his own terrorists.

Webfusion has his own terrorists? You folks are kind of making this erroneously personal. :rolleyes:

[mrbaracuda]

In 1945, he received a German surrender offer from Heinrich Himmler, though the offer was ultimately rejected.

Cute, that weasel Himmler trying to save his own ass. Damned he be, the chicken farmer he was, trying to act on behalf of zee Führer without any authority! :p