Atheism =/= Aimless

[RandomJSF]

To begin, let me first say that I am quite pleased to be able to take part in a forum such as this one. Perhaps it is somewhat presumptuous for my first post to be a thread opener, but I fear I must take that risk.

I also apologize in advance for the fact that I am certain that this question must have been asked before... The post count on this forum, however, grows at sometimes alarming speeds, and I simply do not have it in me to search every available post for an answer to my question.

So then, on to the question at hand. A simple one in theory, but a rather difficult one in practice... But regardless, allow me to explain.

There is a recurring theme, amongst both the responses from the overtly religious and the threads started by the same, that expresses an idea that I find particularly exasperating. It seems to be the assumption of such persons that, as what Dawkins (I believe) would term a de-facto atheist, I am somehow devoid of direction in my life. That somehow without what is, in effect, a monarch (as that is entirely what most of the higher powers in organized religions are, whether in point of fact or in action) to dictate what I should do, I am somehow lost, aimless.

To clarify (before someone takes the unfortunate misguided leap of logic), let me state that I do not believe that many religious persons are looking for step-by-step guides in their lives. I do not feel that most, if any, persons of religious persuasion are seeking a detailed set of instructions on how to make their tea, as an example. Religious persons do, however, for the large part, look to their religion for guidelines to living. For a sense of purpose, of deeper meaning.

And therein lies my question. Why is it so hard for such persons to believe that, without a god or other higher power, I am missing that part of my life?

I find an immense amount of personal meaning to my life. I have goals, I have aspirations. I feel a sense of greater purpose. I simply choose to ascribe it to myself, to self-generated intention. I feel that my purpose is not only to better myself, but to find some way, however it is possible, to better the life of my fellow humans. I do not pretend that I have a chance at doing so on any significant scale, but for me, even the satisfaction of helping a random stranger find something they've lost in a store is a confirmation of all this.

I also find that persons of religion seem to believe that atheists do not have any sense of wonder.

Why is that? I can look at an oak tree, and stand in awe of its complexity. I can look out at the stars, and stand stupefied by the sheer magnificence of this universe I find myself so fortunate to inhabit.

Why do persons of religion feel that my definitions of meaning, purpose, and wonder have less value than theirs? Or no value at all?

~~ RandomJSF

[RandomJSF]

Upon reading my own post, I feel that I should further clarify one point.

It has been argued, in other threads, that being an atheist gives me no inspiration in my life to any of the above, or towards any moral system, or the like. I would like to refute this, on a personal level.

My atheism breeds in me a profound respect for this life I live, and for the lives of those around me. If there is nothing after I die, then all I have is this life I am living now. Call it Humanism, call it what you will, but my atheism inspires me to be kinder, not for any reward after the fact, but from the simple knowledge that, if this is my only shot at living, I would want it to be pleasant and worth living... And therefore, the responsibility falls to be to ensure that, through my existence, I better not only myself and my life, but the lives of those I meet.

If this is not noble, if this is not moral, than I honestly fail to see what is.

I need no god to tell me that striking my neighbor just because I feel like it is immoral.

[Mobyseven]

Honestly, I can't comment, and neither can a large number of members. The reason? We have exactly the same questions. Why is it that we are supposed to be immoral or amoral? Why are our lives supposedly devoid of meaning? Why, when we clarify our position on these issues, are our answers handwaved away and strawman positions built up and repeated?

Anything I say would be speculation, and you seem to want more than that.

[PixyMisa]

Yeah. That's why you're getting plenty of views, but no responses. It's not that we disagree with anything you said, it's just that we can't provide definitive answers.

But welcome, anyway. :)

[Darth Rotor]

I also find that persons of religion seem to believe that atheists do not have any sense of wonder.

Generalize much? Paint with a broad brush much? Stereotype much?

Welcome.

Enjoy.

By the way, your thread title was very well crafted, a pithy summary of your post. I agree. I will also point out that Atheism and Christianity are not precise opposites. One is a position taken, the other a belief system. I think the subtle distinction there is lost on far too many who bat the terms around on this discussion forum.

DR

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Maybe it is normal to try to pigeon hole people who are totally different than yourself and "assign" them attributes you think they should have. When I speak to a believer, I always find myself thinking "they don't really believe this, they are just saying this because they think this is what they are supposed to say".

Or maybe I'm just totally wrong. Anyway that's the first thing that came to mind when I read the OP.

LLH

[El Greco]

Yeah, this has been discussed before. Heck, EVERYTHING related has been discussed before here.

Anyway, what still gets on my nerves after all these years, is that many believers can't seem to understand that being an atheist is not exactly a choice. It's a realization. Even if atheism would make us all immoral murderers, there is nothing we can do since the damned God doesn't exist. The only other option would be to try and fool ourselves but it's impossible to keep pretending you are seeing a gorgeous blonde in your room when there is none.

[Darth Rotor]

The only other option would be to try and fool ourselves but it's impossible to keep pretending you are seeing a gorgeous blonde in your room when there is none.
Why do you hate redheads? :D

DR

[Bikewer]

I wonder how many "religious" people actually live their lives in a manner which caters to God-afterlife?
For the most part, we see Christians behaving just like...Everyone else.

[PAC]

When my wife and I are out with our fundamentalist relatives and we run into one of their church aquaintances they will not even introduce us or involve us in any passing discussion. We become the invisable ones. We have learned to find the humor in this treatment. It indicates how lacking they feel we must be.

[Beerina]

I often ask the religious what the point of their life is.

Oh, yes, "get into heaven". With a sidebar of "helping others to get in, too", and "help the unfortunate, if you can squeeze it in".


But that's not it. What is the purpose in the larger picture?


God selects for Heaven, people skilled in helping the poor, a skill that's absolutely useless in Heaven? And what's the point of Heaven itself? A place to hang out with God? For ever and ever? Doing nothing but praising God, which is presumably superior to continuous orgasms?

In the larger picture, there is no point to a religious person's life, either.

[articulett]

I think that faith encourages this meme that those without it are miserable, immoral people. This way, instead of questioning whether faith is a good way to really know anything (an act that they've been told is arrogant and on par with questioning god), they learn to see everything an atheist says or does through dark lenses. It helps the confirm the bias that faith is good and necessary and atheism leads to nihilism and immorality without a person ever having to show or produce evidence of either. They need to believe that atheists are miserable hell-bound people so that they can feel that faith is "good" and not a code word for "gullible".

Every theist knows that atheists think the theists beliefs are as wacky as all the theisms the theist doesn't believe in. They tend to take this lack of belief in their "higher truth" as an insult to them, personally--and the invisible guy they believe in. Rather than examine whether that makes any sense, it's easier to vilify the messenger. After a while people come to need or prefer their belief and would rather have it than find out they are wrong.

[Safe-Keeper]

Welcome to the forums! Though I must point out, as others have done, that the views you attack are far from as common in theists as you think. I've never been asked the question in my native Scandinavia, for the simple reason that atheism is common here. In the US, the stereotyping of atheism is due to the fact that atheists aren't commonly encountered.

Other than that, though, I agree with you.

[bokonon]

I wonder how many "religious" people actually live their lives in a manner which caters to God-afterlife?
For the most part, we see Christians behaving just like...Everyone else.
Yeah, I think for most this "Purpose-Driven Life" thing is more of a warm fuzzy feeling than anything that actually motivates action. "I'm doing God's will, and you're not."

[lionking]

Welcome. When this topic is raised it brings to mind Allan Dean Foster's sci-fi novel "Glory Road". Aliens analysed the entire human existance and experience and concluded that the meaning of life is shopping. :) As good as any other.

[rocketdodger]

I think that faith encourages this meme that those without it are miserable, immoral people. This way, instead of questioning whether faith is a good way to really know anything (an act that they've been told is arrogant and on par with questioning god), they learn to see everything an atheist says or does through dark lenses. It helps the confirm the bias that faith is good and necessary and atheism leads to nihilism and immorality without a person ever having to show or produce evidence of either. They need to believe that atheists are miserable hell-bound people so that they can feel that faith is "good" and not a code word for "gullible".

Every theist knows that atheists think the theists beliefs are as wacky as all the theisms the theist doesn't believe in. They tend to take this lack of belief in their "higher truth" as an insult to them, personally--and the invisible guy they believe in. Rather than examine whether that makes any sense, it's easier to vilify the messenger. After a while people come to need or prefer their belief and would rather have it than find out they are wrong.

You should listen to articulett (I know the posts are always long with big paragraphs... its hard sometimes.. but the content is good usually...so stick with it).

Once you critically view religion as a self-serving meme, in the context of the other memes floating around, everything becomes amazingly clear. Its almost like enlightenment. No, it is anti-enlightenment, I suppose, because you realize how insidious religion really is.

When I first did work on memetics in college I could not believe how well everything fit. Imagine, a idea that explains in full every aspect of religion (and all other human dominance systems, mind you) AND contains no contradictions anywhere!

I also could not believe how ignorant the religious were to not see what I saw, things that are so obvious. Memetics explains why that is, too, but man... its scary to see it in action.

[tkingdoll]

Several years ago, there was a thread on this forum about food likes and dislikes. One poster professed a hatred for onions. Another poster liked onions to the point where he simply could not understand how or why the first poster would live an onion-free life. One of the biggest arguments imaginable ensued. The second poster didn't appear to be able to accept that something delicious to his tastebuds could be horrid to someone else's, or that the other poster wasn't prepared to eat enough onions to be convinced of the deliciousness of them. It really was a very nasty, heated argument.

I mention it because when trying to think of an answer to your question, it was the first thing that popped into my head. It's very easy to be incredulous that someone else can't see how right you are.

Now imagine that the second person, along with millions of other people, believed that onions actually offer you eternal life and happiness. He'd be right in thinking the first poster was an idiot for not eating them. And he'd also be justified in thinking that an onion-free life might be empty compared to his tasty, oniony one.

The fact that there is no evidence to support the onion/eternal life/happiness belief is where the second poster would come a cropper. But we can only assume that the second poster doesn't care a hoot about the evidence. Onions taste good.

[JoeEllison]

What I've found is that theists have a "hole" in their identity, that religion fills for them. Almost everyone they know is some sort of theist, and shares that same "hole". They understand on some level that the Muslims and Wiccans and Jews and Christians and Hindus and Scientologists all share that same emptiness, and use different things to fill it. So, when they come across atheists, is it any wonder that they assume that we lack the same thing that they would lack without religion?

I remember a conversation I had with a woman a few years back, where she claimed that "atheists worship themselves." When I told her that she was wrong, she then insisted that "atheists must worship Darwin." She went through a list of people and ideas that atheists were supposed to worship... and at no point did it occur to her that a person could live their life without worshiping something. I think it is that basic inability to see things from a different perspective that makes conversations with theists so difficult.

[supercorgi]

I've been asked "Why don't you believe in God?" I can go into all the reasons that I don't - no evidence, internally inconsistent, etc. Then it comes down to "But you should just try to believe and you'll see the truth" My response is "You can't manufacturer belief, you either believe or you don't believe." During my life, I've tried to believe but just couldn't - it's just not in me. Is it a moral failing? Hell no - I think I'm probably a nicer person than a lot of people around me.

[Lamuella]

honestly speaking, very little of my life and the things I enjoy have anything to do with my lack of religion, apart from my participation in threads like this and on forums like this.

I'd definitely say I live a secular life rather than an atheist one. In fact, I'm not sure how you would live an "atheist" life.

I think of it like this: Some people like golf, some people like football, some people like baseball. If they are fanatical about these sports, a lot of their lives will revolve around them.

As someone who isn't a big sports fan, I don't spend much of my life having anything to do with sports. This isn't the same as spending much of my life in anti-sport activities, or even spending much of my life thinking about the sports I am not involved in.

[Darth Rotor]

I remember a conversation I had with a woman a few years back, where she claimed that "atheists worship themselves." When I told her that she was wrong, she then insisted that "atheists must worship Darwin." She went through a list of people and ideas that atheists were supposed to worship... and at no point did it occur to her that a person could live their life without worshiping something.
At some point, she will either grasp that or she won't. How you (or anyone) can present the alternative to her perceptual framework may aid, or deter, that understanding arriving. I find it hard to believe that anyone cannot grasp that some people don't worship anything.

Always something new to learn.

DR

[Safe-Keeper]

I remember a conversation I had with a woman a few years back, where she claimed that "atheists worship themselves." When I told her that she was wrong, she then insisted that "atheists must worship Darwin." She went through a list of people and ideas that atheists were supposed to worship... and at no point did it occur to her that a person could live their life without worshiping something. I think it is that basic inability to see things from a different perspective that makes conversations with theists so difficult.I've heard people say things like this, too. This and 'since morality can only come from gods, atheists consider themselves gods'. If you've lived your entire life in a nation where nearly everyone is theistic and atheism is just about never encountered, I suppose this doesn't seem like such a far-out view to you. I suppose it'd be like me arriving in an anarchy... I know I'd go to some lengths to find out who ruled the place if the government didn't.

[plumjam]

What I've found is that theists have a "hole" in their identity, that religion fills for them. Almost everyone they know is some sort of theist, and shares that same "hole". They understand on some level that the Muslims and Wiccans and Jews and Christians and Hindus and Scientologists all share that same emptiness, and use different things to fill it. So, when they come across atheists, is it any wonder that they assume that we lack the same thing that they would lack without religion?

I remember a conversation I had with a woman a few years back, where she claimed that "atheists worship themselves." When I told her that she was wrong, she then insisted that "atheists must worship Darwin." She went through a list of people and ideas that atheists were supposed to worship... and at no point did it occur to her that a person could live their life without worshiping something. I think it is that basic inability to see things from a different perspective that makes conversations with theists so difficult.

What, if I may ask, do you stick in your hole?

Or is it that, despite 90-odd percent of humanity for 90-odd percent of history having said hole, you are somehow holeless ?
And if so, how did you escape the hole?

[suomynonA]

Several years ago, there was a thread on this forum about food likes and dislikes. One poster professed a hatred for onions. Another poster liked onions to the point where he simply could not understand how or why the first poster would live an onion-free life. One of the biggest arguments imaginable ensued. The second poster didn't appear to be able to accept that something delicious to his tastebuds could be horrid to someone else's, or that the other poster wasn't prepared to eat enough onions to be convinced of the deliciousness of them. It really was a very nasty, heated argument.

You wouldn't happen to know where this thread is would you? I could use a good laugh.

[RandomJSF]

I do apologize for standing vacant from my own thread for so long. Unfortunately, I work a 12-hour night shift, so I'm only available at odd times...

Anyways. Time for some comments.

First, to hail back towards the beginning of the thread, I direct these first comments to Darth Rotor.

--------------------

Generalize much? Paint with a broad brush much? Stereotype much?

Yes, in this case, I did make a sweeping generalization. Not out of banality, or lack of understanding, or anything malicious or ill-intended. Nothing of the sort. I make this generalization because, without it, I would have to go into explicit detail as to the very specific group of religious persons that I am referring to. To do such would take more time, and make my OP even longer than it originally was.

That being said, perhaps it was an error on my part. I failed to remember that, as I am new here, no one on this forum is, as of yet, acquainted with my exact feelings on any given subject, especially this one. When I make a generalization about religious people, I mean those who proselytize, who evangelize, those who feel a specific need to approach me and confront me with my beliefs. I do not make a habit of attacking religious people with my secular, atheist, and/or humanist beliefs, unless I am confronted first. Forums like this are, perhaps, an exception.

That being said, please also understand my intentions. I am not here to insult or belittle. I have come to this forum in a search for... how shall I put this... perhaps I could call it intellectual exercise. I am far too shy in person to express my own beliefs, or lack thereof, outside of groups of like-minded individuals. While many of said individuals are of staggering intellect, it is hard to advance one's knowledge, to improve one's understanding, and therefore one's ability to engage in meaningful discourse, when all those around you do not seek to challenge what you say.

Hence the character of my OP. I did not issue an attack. I made no affront. I did not challenge any facet of religion itself. What I did do was pose a question pointed at a misunderstanding that many of the above-mentioned segment of religious society labor under.

And yes, I realize that I am assuming that to be a misunderstanding. I prefer to think of it that way, rather than as something deliberate, though I know in some cases that it is.

Just as some secularists/atheists/humanists deliberately misunderstand the intentions of some religious persons.


By the way, your thread title was very well crafted, a pithy summary of your post. I agree.

Thank you. It takes more effort than I had thought it would to summarize a new thread in the space of a few words. I am not one for paragraph-long thread titles. :P

Oh, and thank you for the use of the word 'pithy'. I'd forgotten that one. It's an odd one, too... The sound of it suggests a negative connotation to my ears, though it is certainly not so. I've heard that word used improperly on many an occasion... Such as, "His pithy little comments were meaningless," which rather contradicts itself...

I will also point out that Atheism and Christianity are not precise opposites. One is a position taken, the other a belief system. I think the subtle distinction there is lost on far too many who bat the terms around on this discussion forum.

It is quite pleasing to find others who understand this point. I realize that I may not have portrayed, through my OP, that I feel the same. On all sides of the Religious vs. Nonreligious debate, there are far too many whose position on that very point has become intractable. Far too many of religious intent who believe that a person MUST have a belief system, and therefore atheism MUST be that system... Far too many on the nonreligious side who do not take into account that the very nature of humans lends itself towards establishing belief systems.

But as you said, the distinction between a position one takes, and a belief one holds, is a very fine one, but a very intricate one. Step back too far, generalize too much, and the intricate patterns like those are lost in the bird's eye view.

~~ RandomJSF

[RandomJSF]

And now, time for a few more comments. First up on the list, we have an entry from plumjam, not in response to myself, but to JoeEllison.

What, if I may ask, do you stick in your hole?

Or is it that, despite 90-odd percent of humanity for 90-odd percent of history having said hole, you are somehow holeless ?
And if so, how did you escape the hole?

I cannot speak for Joe's answer but as for myself, I believe my OP states some of my answer.

The simple fact is that humanity is predisposed towards credulous belief. We are predisposed towards a need for a higher meaning, a higher purpose. I believe this is the "hole" I have oft seen referred to on this forum.

Some choose to fill this hole through religion. Others choose to fill this hole through science. Others still choose to fill it through other means.

Whatever the means, though, the origin of the "hole" remains the same. It is the emptiness left in the absence of understanding. It is the need for truth. Some might call that a "higher truth".

I don't quite understand that term myself. Truth is truth, is it not? How can one truth be more "true" than another truth? That's a discussion for another time, however.

Anyways. If we accept that the "hole" is from a need for understanding, its easy to see how both religion and science fill that void. One proffers up-front answers. The other proffers piecemeal answers that group together to form a greater whole, answers that can only be obtained through rigorous work.

The fact is that, in the early days, we did not have science to give us the answers we needed. We cowered in fear of thunderstorms, not because we understood how much electricity was in the discharge, but because we thought the gods were angry.

Science was not there to provide us with the answers. Religion was the obvious answer, the first answer. First does not necessarily mean best, however.

I choose to fill my hole through science and wonder. Upon looking at a tree, I choose to dismiss the answer that some higher power waved its hand and the tree was, and instead turn to something that I find far more wondrous.

This does not make science my religion. I do not have a hole only religion can fill, nor do I believe anyone does. We all have a choice as to what we place in the void.

~~ RandomJSF

[articulett]

Welcome JSF... I find your writing very eloquent and you will find a lot of like minded people here.

From my perspective, my lack of a belief in gods is no more of a "faith" or an anything than a theists lack of belief in Xenu or demons or reincarnation or whatever it is they lend no credence to. I understand why people believe the assorted things they do... I believed various things at different times in my life because others seemed to or they "felt" right... but it just became clear as time passed that there really isn't a good reason to believe in one brand of invisible consciousness or immeasurable powers over others... and there are so many to choose from with so many people very convinced of their truth.

They've never turned out to be real or verifiable truths and it is long known that humans have brains that are drawn to answers even if they are wrong... humans like to know and believe that they are right... it makes them feel in control. But faith and feelings aren't good ways to find out the truth. But no matter how you say it, people hear you as laughing at them for their belief-- no matter how respectful you are... because they know how they feel towards beliefs that they find unbelievable.

And belief needs respect and concurrence and confirmation bias and people gathering together to affirm it to stay alive in the glaring absence of evidence. I suggest that the reactions you get that are negative are people desperately afraid you might have a valid point in not believing in their god (or other woo). They feel special for "believing"--they've been told faith is virtue... necessary for happiness, morality, and salvation. And they've been primed to filter your words through that belief. They don't want to believe that you can be perfectly happy, moral, and as saved as everyone else without their special divine knowledge.

I find the godless that I know among the funniest and brightest and most honest people I know... eager to share real and verifiable useful information. I find Randi a gem of a human being that I feel very fortunate to have met. And yet the "godless" are always vilified for not being able to "believe"... for not seeing why it's good or useful... for trying to explain how they are moral without it--while gurus are praised for the goofiest inanities. People will hear things that you do not say and refuse to hear what you are saying. But this forum tends to be a good place to practice how to convey your message.

If you aren't being understood, it's probably because the recipient is afraid to understand what you are saying because of a belief they might be protecting. This forum will help you develop a thick skin because we do have those of that ilk here. Don't think that it's you... and don't be afraid of them, they can't bite through cyber space.

[RandomJSF]

Welcome JSF... I find your writing very eloquent and you will find a lot of like minded people here.Thank you for the welcome and the compliment. I am sincerely glad to be here. I can only lament the fact that my odd hours may keep me out of the thick of some of the more interesting discussions.

From my perspective, my lack of a belief in gods is no more of a "faith" or an anything than a theists lack of belief in Xenu or demons or reincarnation or whatever it is they lend no credence to.I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. I tend to avoid use of the word faith for that same reason... Listeners and readers tend to misunderstand the intention of such a word when an irreligious person uses it.

The word faith comes with an unfortunate connotation of religious association. Subsequently, persons of religious inspiration (DR, forgive me the same generalization I used in my OP) tend to feel that the irreligious have no valid claim to the word. Meaning, that a person such as myself has no right to state that I have faith in something. Furthermore, I've heard the argument that if I can have faith in some other thing, why can I not show faith in whatever higher power happens to be under discussion at the time?

While it is not hard to counter this through logic or simple grammar, I do find, unfortunately, that it is hard to convince the religious that I have just as much right to the use of the word. It simply carries a different meaning for me than it does for them, and they do not tend to understand such.

Before someone assumes that I am professing faith in some religion, let me state that I emphatically do not. I have faith in my friends. I have faith that my mother will come through her recent knee-replacement surgery fine. It is not outside of the bounds of my atheism to profess faith in something I do not completely understand nor have control over. I do, however, have faith that I may one day come to understand that something more thoroughly. :)

But no matter how you say it, people hear you as laughing at them for their belief-- no matter how respectful you are... because they know how they feel towards beliefs that they find unbelievable.I like to think of myself as a kind, compassionate person. I try to empathize with the feelings of my fellows, as much as I am able with what I understand of their motives. I am quite familiar with the feeling of having some deep-seated belief threatened or some grave misunderstanding brought to light, and I admit, it is not a pleasant one.

I have, however, chosen to keep myself open to having my views changed by proper evidence, even if I need to force my eyes open, so to speak. So I can empathize with the position many people, especially those here in the Bible Belt, are placed in when confronted with something that threatens such a sacred thing as their religious views.

That being said... I suppose I feel a bit slighted that, no matter how polite I am, any comment is taken as a personal attack. As I have stated before, I do not proselytize my atheism. I will respond to attacks, I will engage in discussions, and I am happy to argue my point if it is put to me. I do not, however, make a routine of initiating attacks. Anything I say, however, is taken as if I am trying to strip something precious away from them, as you have said. Even something as innocent to my eyes as asking why my outlook on life is any less worthy than theirs.

I find the godless that I know among the funniest and brightest and most honest people I know... eager to share real and verifiable useful information. I find Randi a gem of a human being that I feel very fortunate to have met.I find this to be quite true as well. And I greatly envy you for having met Randi. I do hope to have the honor sometime in the future.

[-Fran-]

I must say that I am in doubt of the existance of "the hole." :)

[lionking]

What, if I may ask, do you stick in your hole?

Or is it that, despite 90-odd percent of humanity for 90-odd percent of history having said hole, you are somehow holeless ?
And if so, how did you escape the hole?
Gee I'd really like to see evidence for the "90% of humanity for 90% of history" claim.

[biomorph]

What, if I may ask, do you stick in your hole?

Reality, knowledge and facts...............and the other answer (lowest common denominator value = on) is "none of your damn business" (lowest common denominator value = off)


Or is it that, despite 90-odd percent of humanity for 90-odd percent of history having said hole, you are somehow holeless ?

No, its just not full of fiction, ie religion. Go figure.


And if so, how did you escape the hole?

If you don't know by now, will you ever.? I wait in hope....

[edge]

I bought some donut holes, so they must exist.
They didn't look like a hole.

[Silentknight]

Stupid puns aside, I think a better term would be "guilt" or "longing." Religiosity creates these needs where they did not exist before, and I would argue, didn't have to exist to begin with. Religious dogma drills the same "hole" that it promises to fill.

[Irony]

What, if I may ask, do you stick in your hole?

Or is it that, despite 90-odd percent of humanity for 90-odd percent of history having said hole, you are somehow holeless ?
And if so, how did you escape the hole?

I'm not trying to insult here, but do you not see that that statement is a perfect example what he was saying? Is it completely beyond your ability to understand that for some of us the "hole" does not exist? I have no "hole", there was no need to fill it or to escape it, it simply never existed.

[JoeEllison]

What, if I may ask, do you stick in your hole?

Or is it that, despite 90-odd percent of humanity for 90-odd percent of history having said hole, you are somehow holeless ?
And if so, how did you escape the hole?

You see, my mom told me when I was little that any story with magic and talking animals was MAKE BELIEVE. So, I never had any feeling of religion in my life. Up until I was 10-11 years old, I assumed that adults only pretended to believe in Jesus, the way they pretended to believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa. When I realized that 90% of the world was stark raving mad... it was quite a shock toi my young mind! :D

Plus, I've never looked at the world and thought "is this all there is?" I'm a positive kind of guy, so instead of worrying about magical sky daddies and the like, I was busy trying to figure out real things, like astronomy and physics. It didn't occur to me that some people have something missing, that religion fills.

It didn't occur to me, because I don't feel that something is missing in my life, and I never have.

[JoeEllison]

I'm not trying to insult here, but do you not see that that statement is a perfect example what he was saying? Is it completely beyond your ability to understand that for some of us the "hole" does not exist? I have no "hole", there was no need to fill it or to escape it, it simply never existed.

It is humorous that he makes my exact point for me... and he probably won't get it even after it has been explained to him. He'll probably say something retarded, like "science is your religion!!"

[biomorph]

Stupid puns aside, I think a better term would be "guilt" or "longing." Religiosity creates these needs where they did not exist before, and I would argue, didn't have to exist to begin with.

I think the need for an understanding of the world might be that mythical hole. In the absence of factual evidence nonsense got in, humans being inquisitive creatures as it where.

Religious dogma drills the same "hole" that it promises to fill.

Gotta find me a preacher boy, if thats true. (Just where is that in the good book?)

(sorry I just could'nt resist after your entirely correct remark about stupid puns, OK OK OK i promise I'll stop now and be a good girl;)) ]

<Note to self; stay off the gin when posting on a forum where intelligent discussion is the norm.>

[Myshkin]

Yeah, this has been discussed before. Heck, EVERYTHING related has been discussed before here.

Anyway, what still gets on my nerves after all these years, is that many believers can't seem to understand that being an atheist is not exactly a choice. It's a realization. Even if atheism would make us all immoral murderers, there is nothing we can do since the damned God doesn't exist. The only other option would be to try and fool ourselves but it's impossible to keep pretending you are seeing a gorgeous blonde in your room when there is none.

supercorgi says:
Then it comes down to "But you should just try to believe and you'll see the truth" My response is "You can't manufacturer belief, you either believe or you don't believe." During my life, I've tried to believe but just couldn't - it's just not in me.

I'm with y'all. If one could find that switch...that moment or condition or combination of synapses firing...one could will oneself to believe anything. I have no idea, psychologically, why I don't believe. Many people have much the same "data" as I, yet they do believe.

I've met (and am closely related to) folks who claim they can choose to believe or not, but I'm not sure that they and I mean the same thing by "believe". I don't know what they mean, actually. I have been told "just believe it; I did and it's great". At this point we're not even speaking the same language...they might as well tell me "flaunt perfect diddly on the salt happy".

[biomorph]

Anyway, what still gets on my nerves after all these years, is that many believers can't seem to understand that being an atheist is not exactly a choice. It's a realization. Even if atheism would make us all immoral murderers, there is nothing we can do since the damned God doesn't exist.


And my nerves too, as some might have noticed from time to time...;)


The only other option would be to try and fool ourselves but it's impossible to keep pretending you are seeing a gorgeous blonde in your room when there is none.

Oooh I don't know, i have a mirror you know. and hair dye and makeup. (OK let me dream a little ok?)

Ok maybe not enough make up.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'd say the main reason some theists believe atheism to be aimless is because they have been presented with that dogma at an early age and established it as a reason to believe their theism is superior to atheism. It is part of the viral meme which is self replicating.

"My beliefs are superior because 'God' gives our lives meaning." If you deconstruct the belief it is actually appalling. Imagine yourself born a slave to your god and your only purpose is to worship that god. Human nature is to reject that as oppression, even if you owe your life to that god for whatever reason.

Think about it. Do we think it is right to tell our children they owe their existence to our decision to conceive and therefore they are obligated to worship us the rest of their lives? We might say (rarely) they owe room and board and have to return respect and obey the rules to reap that reward. But even then it is an even more rare parent who would deny love to that rebellious child and seek to punish them further, beyond using the severe measure of eviction or ostracizing to guide a child's behavior.

The claim gods give anyone a purpose for living and existing is one made blindly by indoctrinated believers. And I apologize to the theists on the board, but if any of you can explain to me why worshiping a god is a good purpose for your life, I'm waiting to hear it.

[Darth Rotor]

And I apologize to the theists on the board, but if any of you can explain to me why worshiping a god is a good purpose for your life, I'm waiting to hear it.
Huh?

How do you come up with that, worshipping a god is a good purpose for your life, as anything any so called theist has expressed here?

Why, in other words, should anyone answer this

Straw Man

of a question.

Can you tell me why beating your kids is a good purpose for your life? (No, SG, I don't think you'd beat your kids, not hardly, but look at how you set that up. )

Are you sure you phrased that the way you intended to?

When worship becomes the purpose of one's life, one tends to become a nun, or a monk.

Not a lot of them around.

Worship as a feature? Probably a more easily accessible, and answerable, question.

Not everyone in your target audience is Kurious Kathy.

DR

[-Fran-]

You see, my mom told me when I was little that any story with magic and talking animals was MAKE BELIEVE. So, I never had any feeling of religion in my life. Up until I was 10-11 years old, I assumed that adults only pretended to believe in Jesus, the way they pretended to believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa. When I realized that 90% of the world was stark raving mad... it was quite a shock toi my young mind! :D

I recognize this :D I was kind of shocked too, as a kid, when I realized how seriously that book of fairytales was being taken in the world :boggled:


Plus, I've never looked at the world and thought "is this all there is?" I'm a positive kind of guy, so instead of worrying about magical sky daddies and the like, I was busy trying to figure out real things, like astronomy and physics. It didn't occur to me that some people have something missing, that religion fills.

It didn't occur to me, because I don't feel that something is missing in my life, and I never have.

Talking about "the hole" again. Personally, I haven't been such a person that never felt things were missing. I've had tough periods in life, and sure felt that things were missing, and today I can't say that I am always a happy person that is satisfied with my life in all aspects, even though I feel much better today than I did before, and think that I live a good life.

Atheists and skeptics can be depressed people with a lot of problems, as well, and feel that things are missing in their life. What I think is the big difference is that they, I, we, most of the time know what is missing, and that the missing things are real things, that it is possible to find. You might feel lonely, then it's possible to find a friend or a partner. Your job situation is bad, it's possible to find a new job. You feel you need something to do in life, it's possible to find something to do that suits your personality. Even when you are struck by seemingly vague, restless and complex feelings of not being satisfied with life on the whole, I think it is possible to work out the vaguness and find out what real things are actually missing, and then strive to fill those "holes" with real things, and better your life.

The "hole" that plumjam and others seems to talk about though is some vague spiritual hole in your soul, or something, that must be filled by beliefs, or faith and so on. That sort of "hole" I don't think really exist, though it's possible, it seems, to get a subjective feeling of it, mainly through having been taught of its existence I think (as someone said above, religion drills the hole it claims it can fill). Just like you, I have never felt this kind of hole and it never occured to me either that something needed to be filled with religion or similar things.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Huh?

How do you come up with that, worshipping a god is a good purpose for your life, as anything any so called theist has expressed here?

Why, in other words, should anyone answer this

Straw Man

of a question.

Can you tell me why beating your kids is a good purpose for your life? (No, SG, I don't think you'd beat your kids, not hardly, but look at how you set that up. )

Are you sure you phrased that the way you intended to?

When worship becomes the purpose of one's life, one tends to become a nun, or a monk.

Not a lot of them around.

Worship as a feature? Probably a more easily accessible, and answerable, question.

Not everyone in your target audience is Kurious Kathy.

DRDR, I'm not really sure what I have missed in all my years hearing Bible believers claim their God gives them a purpose in life. Apparently you find something different in the supposed "purpose" the Christian dogma provides believers. Like I said, what is that purpose and where in the Bible do you find it?

I am not claiming the people who proclaim God gives their lives purpose actually even follow their own claim. In fact, I said the opposite. I said most people just mouth the words that their god beliefs give their lives purpose without thinking any further about what that claim means. And you have posted a perfect example of what I said.

I think from your posts you are a Christian. I can't recall for certain. So what purpose do your god beliefs give your life? (Sorry if I have misremembered if you are a theist or an agnostic.)

[Peter Soderqvist]

The Meaning-Full Universe By: Benjamin D. Wiker Crisis Magazine April 7, 2004
In a now-famous passage from his justly acclaimed The First Three Minutes, physicist Steven Weinberg provides a rather dismal assessment of the human drama: It is almost irresistible for humans to believe that we have some special relation to the universe, that human life is not just a more-or-less farcical outcome of a chain of accidents reaching back to the first three minutes, but that we were somehow built in from the beginning…. It is hard to realize that this all [i.e., life on Earth] is just a tiny part of an overwhelmingly hostile universe. It is even harder to realize that this present universe has evolved from an unspeakably unfamiliar early condition, and faces a future extinction of endless cold or intolerable heat. The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless.
http://www.discovery.org/a/1992


Soderqvist1: For the sake of consistency, is it possible to have a meaningful life in a meaningless universe?
The Universe is meaningless, life is part of the universe; then life is meaningless! If your Sense of right and wrong have a point, then it is not a point in a pointless universe!

[Peter Soderqvist]

The Illusion of Conscious Will (Bradford Books) (Paperback) by Daniel M. Wegner (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Illusion-Conscious-Will-Bradford-Books/dp/0262731622/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202203799&sr=1-1


Soderqvist1: We have Meaningless life with the illusion of conscious will!
Why do you care? Isn't that an illusion?

[Mobyseven]

Just because the universe doesn't care, doesn't mean I don't have to care.

[JoeEllison]

Soderqvist1: For the sake of consistency, is it possible to have a meaningful life in a meaningless universe?
The Universe is meaningless, life is part of the universe; then life is meaningless! If your Sense of right and wrong have a point, then it is not a point in a pointless universe!
I didn't ask for the universe's opinion. :D

The universe doesn't have a mind, and therefore doesn't have meaning. I have a mind, so my life has whatever meaning my mind creates for it. It really isn't that difficult a concept to understand.

[JoeEllison]

The "hole" that plumjam and others seems to talk about though is some vague spiritual hole in your soul, or something, that must be filled by beliefs, or faith and so on. That sort of "hole" I don't think really exist, though it's possible, it seems, to get a subjective feeling of it, mainly through having been taught of its existence I think (as someone said above, religion drills the hole it claims it can fill). Just like you, I have never felt this kind of hole and it never occured to me either that something needed to be filled with religion or similar things.That "hole" is like a missing puzzle piece(cross-shaped? :p) for religious people. My life's puzzle isn't missing that piece, and there's not even a space for it to fit into. :D

And, I agree that religion seems to create the space it fills, and people who managed to avoid religion don't have that space. Religion also seems to cram itself into other empty spaces, which is why the evangelicals like going after drug addicts, criminals, and other screwed-up people. They have so much missing from their lives that they are willing to accept almost anything.

[Peter Soderqvist]

Just because the universe doesn't care, doesn't mean I don't have to care.


Soderqvist1: That is not consistent!
If the universe doesn't care, and you are part of it, then you doesn't care either. Your belief that you care is only an illusion, it is only an epiphenomenon of matter! Have you read that book; The illusion of conscious will?

[PixyMisa]

The Universe is meaningless, life is part of the universe; then life is meaningless!
The Earth is approximately spherical. Mt Everest is part of the Earth. Therefore Mt Everest is approximately spherical.

[Mobyseven]

Soderqvist1: That is not consistent!
If the universe doesn't care, and you are part of it, then you doesn't care either. Your belief that you care is only an illusion, it is only an epiphenomenon of matter! Have you read that book; The illusion of conscious will?

I have a mind (in a materialistic sense, let's notturn this thread into another 'Aha! You're a dualist/idealist/hooverist' thread). The universe doesn't have a mind. The argument doesn't work.

Also, for the reason your argument form doesn't even stand up to scrutiny, I will defer to PixyMisa:

The Earth is approximately spherical. Mt Everest is part of the Earth. Therefore Mt Everest is approximately spherical.

[Peter Soderqvist]

I didn't ask for the universe's opinion. :D

The universe doesn't have a mind, and therefore doesn't have meaning. I have a mind, so my life has whatever meaning my mind creates for it. It really isn't that difficult a concept to understand.


Soderqvist1: you didn't ask for the universe opinion?
This seems to me to be some kind of dualism in the sense that you are not part of the physical universe, you are something else! Then your proposition is consistent, but not necessarily truth!

[Peter Soderqvist]

The Earth is approximately spherical. Mt Everest is part of the Earth. Therefore Mt Everest is approximately spherical.


Soderqvist1: you have a point here!
all humans are mortals, Aristotle is a human, therefore Aristotle is a mortal. This syllogism work because Aristotle is a mortal human, but Mt Everst is not a spherical earth, and a human is not the universe, so syllogism doesn't apply!

[Peter Soderqvist]

If we left out syllogism and look att Steven Weinberg again and what he has said about the universe, it is clear that the "Rise and fall" of the universe seems pointless, and I have no reason to believe that the rise and fall of humanity is any different when our sun is "dead" life seems equally pointless! Of course you can have a meaningful life as long as you live, but not any more. Religion is thus right without afterlife there is no meaning with life as a whole, but religion doesn't have any evidence regarding life after death, so there is no reason to believe in some kind of afterlife!

[HghrSymmetry]

To begin, let me first say that I am quite pleased to be able to take part in a forum such as this one. Perhaps it is somewhat presumptuous for my first post to be a thread opener, but I fear I must take that risk.

I also apologize in advance for the fact that I am certain that this question must have been asked before... The post count on this forum, however, grows at sometimes alarming speeds, and I simply do not have it in me to search every available post for an answer to my question.

So then, on to the question at hand. A simple one in theory, but a rather difficult one in practice... But regardless, allow me to explain.

There is a recurring theme, amongst both the responses from the overtly religious and the threads started by the same, that expresses an idea that I find particularly exasperating. It seems to be the assumption of such persons that, as what Dawkins (I believe) would term a de-facto atheist, I am somehow devoid of direction in my life. That somehow without what is, in effect, a monarch (as that is entirely what most of the higher powers in organized religions are, whether in point of fact or in action) to dictate what I should do, I am somehow lost, aimless.

To clarify (before someone takes the unfortunate misguided leap of logic), let me state that I do not believe that many religious persons are looking for step-by-step guides in their lives. I do not feel that most, if any, persons of religious persuasion are seeking a detailed set of instructions on how to make their tea, as an example. Religious persons do, however, for the large part, look to their religion for guidelines to living. For a sense of purpose, of deeper meaning.

And therein lies my question. Why is it so hard for such persons to believe that, without a god or other higher power, I am missing that part of my life?

I find an immense amount of personal meaning to my life. I have goals, I have aspirations. I feel a sense of greater purpose. I simply choose to ascribe it to myself, to self-generated intention. I feel that my purpose is not only to better myself, but to find some way, however it is possible, to better the life of my fellow humans. I do not pretend that I have a chance at doing so on any significant scale, but for me, even the satisfaction of helping a random stranger find something they've lost in a store is a confirmation of all this.

I also find that persons of religion seem to believe that atheists do not have any sense of wonder.

Why is that? I can look at an oak tree, and stand in awe of its complexity. I can look out at the stars, and stand stupefied by the sheer magnificence of this universe I find myself so fortunate to inhabit.

Why do persons of religion feel that my definitions of meaning, purpose, and wonder have less value than theirs? Or no value at all?

~~ RandomJSFWelcome Random.
You have raised many valid points. Many theists do realize that people can have meaning, morality, and happiness in their lives without coupling it to superstition. Generally, they won't admit this because they are protecting this irrationality. Actually having to face this is beyond their coping skills.

They'll provide every excuse and infantile reason to protect their particular belief.
When you ask for evidence, they take offense because they can't provide any.
Some actually show faint, vague glimmers of rationality buried amongst the superstition.
It's tempting to try and help these cases, but often times the defense mechanism kicks in and they slip back into the darkness of living in fear of punishment or hoping for reward. Also, don't be overly surprised if you find extreme ignorance about they very myths they prosetylize.
Students of comparative religion they are not.

It is somewhat perplexing that they continue to haunt skeptics sites though.
It's almost as if they have nagging doubts or other fears and that by preaching at skeptic forums, it gives their particular magic a bit of legitimacy.
One wonders what is the ratio of skeptics that preach at woo forums versus the reverse?

Enjoy the forum.