Israeli Pilots refuse to fly Airstrikes

[a_unique_person]

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/09/25/1064083090349.
html

Israelis deciding that terror won't win peace.



Israeli pilots refuse airstrikes

A group of air force pilots published a statement refusing to carry out air strikes in Palestinian territories, the first such protest from pilots, who are revered in Israel.

The declaration by 27 pilots in the reserves - who regularly carry out combat missions - was likely to deal a blow to military morale because of their elite standing.

As well, it reinforced a small but vocal movement among soldiers who refuse to serve in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, where three years of Israeli-Palestinian violence shows no sign of ending.

Reacting angrily in interviews on all three Israeli TV channels, air force commander Major General Dan Halutz accused the pilots of playing politics.

At issue are the frequent Israeli air strikes aimed at killing Palestinian militants in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Israel calls the operations targeted killings, but Palestinians and human rights groups criticise them as assassinations, noting that innocent civilians have often been killed, as well.

In the past, Halutz has dismissed such criticism.

In June, Halutz acknowledged that the air force had dropped a one-ton bomb on the house of a Hamas militant, even though they knew his family was with him at the time.

The bombing killed the militant, Salah Shehadeh, his wife, and 16 others.

Addressing reports at the time that some pilots were unhappy about having to carry out the targeted killings, Halutz said that "there is no question and no doubts about the importance of our mission".

[Jon_in_london]

Humph... I dont think soldiers/pilots should have a choice in where and when they serve unless they feel the orders they recieve are illegal. Are the orders illegal?

[richardm]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Humph... I dont think soldiers/pilots should have a choice in where and when they serve unless they feel the orders they recieve are illegal. Are the orders illegal?


Well... there are numerous conventions that have clauses saying that you should avoid incidental loss of civilian life, unnecessary suffering, and generally protect the innocent. Since deliberately dropping a 1 ton bomb onto someone's house or a busy market place (in order to target a particular car), or a block of flats (because you know a terrorist is in one of the flats) means you can't guarantee the safety of others, there may be an argument for saying that the orders are not legal.

Of course, I don't know which conventions Israel has signed up for.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/09/25/1064083090349.
html

Israelis deciding that terror won't win peace.



So tell me again why you think Israel are the "bad guys" in this conflict?

[Cleopatra]

Soldiers do have to obey to orders however many Israeli citizens are imprisoned for refusing to serve in the occupied territories.



"There Is a Limit", the Israeli soldiers' movement for selective refusal to serve in the occupied territories:
Of Courage and Resistance (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030505&c=1&s=sontag)

[Cleopatra]

From the link I posted:

Courage has no moral value in itself, for courage is not, in itself, a moral virtue. Vicious scoundrels, murderers, terrorists, may be brave. To describe courage as a virtue, we need an adjective: We speak of "moral courage"--because there is such a thing as amoral courage, too. And resistance has no value in itself. It is the content of the resistance that determines its merit, its moral necessity. Let's say: resistance to a criminal war. Let's say: resistance to the occupation and annexation of another people's land.




Here is what I believe to be a truthful description of a state of affairs that has taken me many years of uncertainty, ignorance and anguish to acknowledge: A wounded and fearful country, Israel, is going through the greatest crisis of its turbulent history, brought about by the policy of steadily increasing and reinforcing settlements on the territories won after its victory in the Arab-Israeli war of 1967. The decision of successive Israeli governments to retain control over the West Bank and Gaza, thereby denying their Palestinian neighbors a state of their own, is a catastrophe--moral, human and political--for both peoples. The Palestinians need a sovereign state. Israel needs a sovereign Palestinian state. Those of us abroad who wish for Israel to survive cannot, should not, wish it to survive no matter what, no matter how. We owe a particular debt of gratitude to courageous Israeli Jewish witnesses, journalists, architects, poets, novelists, professors--among others--who have described and documented and protested and militated against the sufferings of the Palestinians living under the increasingly cruel terms of Israeli military subjugation and settler annexation.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Grammatron


So tell me again why you think Israel are the "bad guys" in this conflict?

Unique believes in the myth of the bloodthirsty Israelis, he doesn't want to be disturbed by questions.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Unique believes in the myth of the bloodthirsty Israelis, he doesn't want to be disturbed by questions.

I have said many times before that there are Isrealis who disagree with the current policy of occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. People seem to ignore these statements.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by richardm



Well... there are numerous conventions that have clauses saying that you should avoid incidental loss of civilian life, unnecessary suffering, and generally protect the innocent. Since deliberately dropping a 1 ton bomb onto someone's house or a busy market place (in order to target a particular car), or a block of flats (because you know a terrorist is in one of the flats) means you can't guarantee the safety of others, there may be an argument for saying that the orders are not legal.

Of course, I don't know which conventions Israel has signed up for.

The Americans could learn a thing or two from the soldiers. They are very brave for taking a stand.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I have said many times before that there are Isrealis who disagree with the current policy of occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. People seem to ignore these statements.

Some people on this board are very slow. You're going to have to cater for them: Otherwise, they'll bog down your arguments with pointless ad-homs like 'you support terrorists' every time.

The first time you mention those in Israel who would oppress the Palestinian for their own ends in your post, say something like, "Israel (meaning the Israeli government and those who support that governments policies but not those Israelis who object to those polices and support a meaningful dialogue of peace between Israel and Palestine (herein, 'Israel', 'Israelis', etc))". If some still don't get it -and one or two posters will take a couple of goes to figure it out- cut-and-paste your definition.

Looking forward to an increased quality of debate.

[Agammamon]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Humph... I dont think soldiers/pilots should have a choice in where and when they serve unless they feel the orders they recieve are illegal. Are the orders illegal?

On the other hand soldiers are still responsible for their actions (legal or not). Soldiers are still citizens and bear responsiblity for government policies. It is certainly illegal for these guys to refuse, but illegal and immoral are not the same thing.

[American]

There are a hundred qualified men ready to do the job if they won't. This is their opportunity.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Just goes to show You, there are honorable people on all sides of any conflict.

[rikzilla]

So AUP, et al...

We've heard from the dissident American serviceman...his essay against US policy in Iraq was trumpeted here on threads started by yourself, etc. Now we see a small group of disaffected servicemembers...this time Israeli pilots loudly protesting their government's policy in regards to launching attacks on Palestinians.

These people are not speaking from jail. They are obviously not dead, or being tortured. No, they're on tv...venting the spleen of their moral indignation on the world stage. Where is the Palestinian equivelant? Absent that...where is ANY Palestinian dissent?

I don't see it, do you? You say it exists, and I do believe you. So show it to me.

The real problem is one of perception. Perhaps you believe that all governments are basically equal and that if dissent is heard from within a government that government must be doing something very bad indeed to have such dissent from within it. Then perhaps you see a government from which arises no such dissent and figure that's a government that is doing business ethically because there is no internal dissention? This is a common misconception...obviously this type of illogical thinking fueled the posting of the American soldier's, and Israeli pilot's comments. These threads were held up as proof that Israel and America are doing things so evil that even their own soldiers cannot abide it. Yet, the logic is flawed...



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Repeat after me...Carl Sagan is my friend..."

Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric
Ad hominem - attacking the arguer and not the argument.
Argument from "authority".
Argument from adverse consequences (putting pressure on the decision maker by pointing out dire consequences of an "unfavourable" decision).
Appeal to ignorance (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).
Special pleading (typically referring to god's will).
Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased).
Observational selection (counting the hits and forgetting the misses).
Statistics of small numbers (such as drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes).
Misunderstanding the nature of statistics (President Eisenhower expressing astonishment and alarm on discovering that fully half of all Americans have below average intelligence!)
Inconsistency (e.g. military expenditures based on worst case scenarios but scientific projections on environmental dangers thriftily ignored because they are not "proved").
Non sequitur - "it does not follow" - the logic falls down.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc - "it happened after so it was caused by" - confusion of cause and effect.
Meaningless question ("what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?).
Excluded middle - considering only the two extremes in a range of possibilities (making the "other side" look worse than it really is).
Short-term v. long-term - a subset of excluded middle ("why pursue fundamental science when we have so huge a budget deficit?").
Slippery slope - a subset of excluded middle - unwarranted extrapolation of the effects (give an inch and they will take a mile).
Confusion of correlation and causation.
Straw man - caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack..
Suppressed evidence or half-truths.
Weasel words - for example, use of euphemisms for war such as "police action" to get around limitations on Presidential powers. "An important art of politicians is to find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the public"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



...thank you Carl.

-z

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Some people on this board are very slow. You're going to have to cater for them: Otherwise, they'll bog down your arguments with pointless ad-homs like 'you support terrorists' every time.

..

Looking forward to an increased quality of debate.

Amen Mr Manifesto!

Someone recently called me a 'Saddam Hussien supporter' at which point I got rather ticked off.

[rikzilla]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Israeli Pilots refuse to fly Airstrikes

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Some people on this board are very slow. You're going to have to cater for them: Otherwise, they'll bog down your arguments with pointless ad-homs like 'you support terrorists' every time.

..

Looking forward to an increased quality of debate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Amen Mr Manifesto!

Someone recently called me a 'Saddam Hussien supporter' at which point I got rather ticked off.

Look! A conversation between the Forest Gump, and the Bubba Blue of JREF!

Who said the forum wasn't as entertaining as it used to be? :D

-z

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by rikzilla
So AUP, et al...

We've heard from the dissident American serviceman...his essay against US policy in Iraq was trumpeted here on threads started by yourself, etc. Now we see a small group of disaffected servicemembers...this time Israeli pilots loudly protesting their government's policy in regards to launching attacks on Palestinians.

These people are not speaking from jail. They are obviously not dead, or being tortured. No, they're on tv...venting the spleen of their moral indignation on the world stage. Where is the Palestinian equivelant? Absent that...where is ANY Palestinian dissent?

I don't see it, do you? You say it exists, and I do believe you. So show it to me.

The real problem is one of perception. Perhaps you believe that all governments are basically equal and that if dissent is heard from within a government that government must be doing something very bad indeed to have such dissent from within it. Then perhaps you see a government from which arises no such dissent and figure that's a government that is doing business ethically because there is no internal dissention? This is a common misconception...obviously this type of illogical thinking fueled the posting of the American soldier's, and Israeli pilot's comments. These threads were held up as proof that Israel and America are doing things so evil that even their own soldiers cannot abide it. Yet, the logic is flawed...


-z

I think You mischaracterize the whole debate. The primary duty for an Israeli citizen is to serve in the IDF to protect the state. The Acme of that person is the Air Force pilot. These people are considered to be super heros by the rest of the populas, for them to not only give up thier position but chance jail and forfeit the rest of thier lives, is a drastic action indeed, so I believe that this is a bit deeper then "venting thier spleen" To demonize these people as malcontents mearly reflects reflects a faulty analysis.

I attribute thier position to be the one they proclaim and not any reason or explanation by others.

Palestinian dissent? that's a Toughy There have been many dissenters that are Palistinian that I have seen thru the years , but as there is no real government there or army or even police force that has any authority there can be no equivalentcy
. There are NGOs that have Israeli and Palistenian members...but no monolithic denunciation, mostly because there IS nothing with regards to the Palistinians that is monolithic.

That is really the nexus of the problem here and in the question of terror attacks

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel


Palestinian dissent? that's a Toughy There have been many dissenters that are Palistinian that I have seen thru the years , but as there is no real government there or army or even police force that has any authority there can be no equivalentcy


Maybe you haven't heard that the Palestinians that opposed to Arafat's policy where tortured and then left hunging in public view in the occupied territories.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Maybe you haven't heard that the Palestinians that opposed to Arafat's policy where tortured and then left hunging in public view in the occupied territories.

No I have heard a lot of things , didn't know about that one . Are you saying that it was done by Arafat's nasient government as policy? If so do you have evidence you could share? I know groups like Hammas kill suspected colaberators all the time, but they are accountable to noone.

[Cleopatra]

What do you mean evidence? Haven't you seen in the news the hanging bodies of Palestinians?

I don't know about Hamas, I know about people that are connected with the Palestinian Authority.

Those that cannot be murdered they are put aside. Sari Nussebeh, you have heard about him haven't you?

BTW Have you heard about any Palestinian organization that defends the rights of the Palestinians?

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Maybe you haven't heard that the Palestinians that opposed to Arafat's policy where tortured and then left hunging in public view in the occupied territories.

That sounds familiar.

Prior to the handing over of the Palestinian Mandate to the UN. The Jews liked to kidnap British soldiers, hang them and booby-trap their bodies so the poor sod's rescuers would also get torn to bits.

PS: they werent above flogging and murdering their hostages either.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


That sounds familiar.

Prior to the handing over of the Palestinian Mandate to the UN. The Jews liked to kidnap British soldiers, hang them and booby-trap their bodies so the poor sod's rescuers would also get torn to bits.

Yes indeed but we are talking about Palestinians hunging Palestinians now.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
What do you mean evidence? Haven't you seen in the news the hanging bodies of Palestinians?

I don't know about Hamas, I know about people that are connected with the Palestinian Authority.

Those that cannot be murdered they are put aside. Sari Nussebeh, you have heard about him haven't you?

BTW Have you heard about any Palestinian organization that defends the rights of the Palestinians?

Webster :Evidence 1 a : an outward sign : INDICATION b : something that furnishes proof

No I have not seen hanging bodies..And I think thats wierd as I follow the news ( from vairious sources as I try to get an unabiased position as possable.) If you possed such documentation please share it with the world as we seem to be spoon fed horeshit by many parties and any attempt to clarify the record/situation would be greatly accepted and long over due.

I know about the self-proclaimed "retrubition" that Hamas inflicts, however I do not know to whom you refere, please elaborate and supply documantation. ( people connected with the PA. Which seems to imply that the PA is directly implicated with the terror campaign by Hamass and others.

Sari Nussebeh I know of him, what is your point??

In answer to your last question , as I said befor the dynamics do not engender either the formation of or the authority of ANY Palistinian organization

[Cleopatra]

Funny. When somebody posts undocumented views that condemn the Israeli policy you don't have difficulties to accept them...

I will try to search the Google news but I don't really care if you believe me. My posts in this forum about this issue talk by themselves about my integrity and honesty.

I cannot see which are the " dynamics that do not favor the formation of any Palestinian organization". What about the Palestinians of the diaspora?

My point about S.Nusseibeh or Edmund Said is that the Palestinian voices of reason were treated by the Palestinian Authority and Arafat himself with hostility.

And to make my point much more clear. It seems that in Israel you can find an opposition of substance to the Israeli policy that exist nowhere else.

I expect you to aknowledge this fact so as the absence of democratic principles in the Palestinian side.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel


Webster :Evidence 1 a : an outward sign : INDICATION b : something that furnishes proof

No I have not seen hanging bodies..And I think thats wierd as I follow the news ( from vairious sources as I try to get an unabiased position as possable.) If you possed such documentation please share it with the world as we seem to be spoon fed horeshit by many parties and any attempt to clarify the record/situation would be greatly accepted and long over due.

I know about the self-proclaimed "retrubition" that Hamas inflicts, however I do not know to whom you refere, please elaborate and supply documantation. ( people connected with the PA. Which seems to imply that the PA is directly implicated with the terror campaign by Hamass and others.

Sari Nussebeh I know of him, what is your point??

In answer to your last question , as I said befor the dynamics do not engender either the formation of or the authority of ANY Palistinian organization

Learn to Google!

Amnesty International is concerned at the abduction and killing by Palestinian
armed groups of Palestinians who have allegedly collaborated with the Israeli
intelligence services. These attacks have recently become increasingly
frequent. More Palestinians are at risk of being killed by the Al-Aqsa Martyrs
Brigade and other armed groups, on suspicion of collaborating with Israeli
intelligence.

In the past week at least three people have been killed by Palestinian armed
groups on suspicion of collaborating with Israeli intelligence. On 24 August,
the body of Ikhlas Yassin, who had been abducted the previous day from her home
in the city of Tulkarem, was found nearby. She had been shot a number of times.
The Palestinian armed group Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claimed responsibility for
her abduction and killing. The group was reported by media sources as saying
that Ikhlas Yassin had confessed to assisting Israeli intelligence services to
assassinate leaders of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade earlier in August. Her son
was also reportedly abducted by the same group, and allegedly interrogated and
tortured, before being freed.

That one took all of 2 mins to find. The one where they partially decapitated and hung the bodies, then had kids posing with the bodies for pictures was the one I wanted to find...

Go google "Palestinian collaborators" and see how many articles pop up...most like


this (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/04/02/usat-collaborate.htm#more)

-z

BTW: Al-Aqsa is controlled exclusively by Arafat.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Ok this will take a line by line quote...................

Cleo :"Funny. When somebody posts undocumented views that condemn the Israeli policy you don't have difficulties to accept them..."

Please show me where I am guilty of this.


"I will try to search the Google news but I don't really care if you believe me. My posts in this forum about this issue talk by themselves about my integrity and honesty."

I have no Idea of your veracity, If you don't care wether what You have to say is believable or provable on it's face, don't post.

"I cannot see which are the " dynamics that do not favor the formation of any Palestinian organization". What about the Palestinians of the diaspora?"

I do not what your question is., especially in re to my post

"My point about S.Nusseibeh or Edmund Said is that the Palestinian voices of reason were treated by the Palestinian Authority and Arafat himself with hostility."

I'm sure they were, it's hard to adopt to adopt a position that is antithetical to the popular sentiment in any society at any time , here in the US most propositions/bills are met with hostility by the other Asile..Perhaps if you would you be more exact in your declaration...........

"And to make my point much more clear. It seems that in Israel you can find an opposition of substance to the Israeli policy that exist nowhere else."


I expect you to acknowledge this fact so as the absence of democratic principles in the Palestinian side.

Well as a critical difference in the two societies...well that's not quite right the Palastinians do not enjoy any thing near to a society as that entails a coherent form of higherarchy and acceptable behavior under a codified construct of law. That according to Isreaeli hawks is a proclamation the sheep herders are not able or worthy of the larger label of people, or country . Thus pre-empting any attempt to develop a unified people and representative government. Yet the primary roadblock to the Palastienian's developing any cohesive representative government is directly moderated by the Sharon government and its punitive body the IDF.

Nkzilla...
Learn to Google!

I have no obligation to prove or supply information to reinforce or give your ( or any one else's) argument creedance .
YOU maintain a position , You prove it.
ClEO maintains a position . Prove it, and as you have adopted her position , BOTH of You prove it.

[Chaos]

Posted by Cleopatra
What about the Palestinians of the diaspora?

Wouldn´t the have the same problems that those Iraqi Exiles the Bush administration put in the Iraqi government have - about noboby really liking or trusting them, as they "ran away" instead of staying in the area and "doing their duty"? After all, they live in safety and (relative) luxury somewhere far away while the rest of their people suffer. I guess if I was in the shoes of the palestinians that would piss me off about someone of the diaspora trying to get a position of authority with the palestinians.

[Cleopatra]

TillEulenspiegel :

As rikzilla showed to you, I wasn't lying when I talked about violations of human rights on behalf of the Palestinian Authority.

I never lie when it comes to this issue. I have the right to err in my interpretation of the political situation as every human being but I would never post false information.

However, your last post gives me the opportunity to make a comment about the information people have about the conflict.

You said :

No I have not seen hanging bodies..And I think thats wierd as I follow the news ( from vairious sources as I try to get an unabiased position as possable.)

As others in this forum ( Unique, Earthborn etc ) that claim that they follow the issue from a close distance, it seems that you miss vital part of the information regarding the way the Palestinian Authority functions.

Do I mean that the Palestinian Authority is more evil than the Israeli side?

Of course not!

But if the supporters of the Palestinians ignore the attrocities of this part and they do not exercise pressure for the application of human rights and democratic principles, life won't improve for the common Palestinian...

Unfortunately, Europeans that seem to be the strongest supporters of the Palestinian Establishement, exhaust their criticism to the Israeli Government, ignoring the suffering of the Palestinians that live under the regime of Y.Arafat.

This attitute doesn't help much the situation.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Chaos
Posted by Cleopatra


Wouldn´t the have the same problems that those Iraqi Exiles the Bush administration put in the Iraqi government have - about noboby really liking or trusting them, as they "ran away" instead of staying in the area and "doing their duty"? After all, they live in safety and (relative) luxury somewhere far away while the rest of their people suffer. I guess if I was in the shoes of the palestinians that would piss me off about someone of the diaspora trying to get a position of authority with the palestinians.

The Palestinians that live in the Occupied Territories don't seem to have any particular problem with the Queen of Jordan ( she is or Palestinian origin) when she poses dressed in Yves Saint Laurent...

In our days the problems are solved by lobbying and not by bombs. Palestinians need people --like the late Said-- to talk passionately but with civility for their causes they do not need terrorists.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Again I will take the liberty of answering line by line for reasons of clarity as well as brevity.

"As rikzilla showed to you, I wasn't lying when I talked about violations of human rights on behalf of the Palestinian Authority."

"I never lie when it comes to this issue. I have the right to err in my interpretation of the political situation as every human being but I would never post false information."

Cleo I never proposed that You were dishonest, but You even acknowledge that Your views ( like anyone else's) are subject to point of view, notice the editorial shift from the first post of your's "...Arafat's policy where tortured and then left hunging in public view... " implying the PA's direct involvement and the second post "... violations of human rights on behalf of the Palestinian Authority...." Implying guilt on other organizations with the supposed implicit sanction of the PA. I acknowledge that there are organizations that commit these crimes ( I mention Hamas, RK mentions Al. whosis martyrs) , but to equate the behavior of these people with the PA is not only wrong but counter-productive. It's tantamount to finding equivalence between the government of the UK and the Ulster Volunteer Force . Even this falls short as there is no real "government" in re the Palistianin people.

How could Arafat , even if he controls all the terror groups in the territories ( which he doesn't ) how could he possibly reign in those elements when Israel destroyed the nascent infrastructure of the PA police and paramilitary forces who's job it is to see that they don't function. Leaving Arafat crouched in a blown apart building?


"But if the supporters of the Palestinians ignore the attrocities of this part and they do not exercise pressure for the application of human rights and democratic principles, life won't improve for the common Palestinian..."

If any other penned these words , I would call thier sentiments desingenious at best. Since however as you seem to display a modicum of allowance for guilt and pacifism on both sides , I will take exception to Your position only. Amnesty Intnl. ( of which I am a member ) condemns the Human rights record of both sides , most accountable, even handed organization in the world do. The common Palistienian suffers more from the brutal occupation of thier lands then they could ever suffer by transgressions (real or imagined )by thier "government".

[evildave]

Part of this "No Absolute Orders" conventions comes from the aftermath of the Nazis.

Does Israel want to have their soldiers interviewed after a war saying things like "I was only following orders"?

In the U.S. military, if you get ordered to bayonet a baby in its crib, you can at that time tell your commander that this is an illegal order. In the German military, they now go a lot further.

If you're told to bomb an apartment complex or hospital without warning, there's a very good chance there will be a LOT of babies in there.

If you're routinely told to bomb apartment complexes, neighborhoods, hospitals and such, I'd say that's pretty much cumulatively guaranteeing you're baby-murdering.

In any event, when it comes to the war crimes trials, the fact that you were "only following orders" is not going to keep your neck away from the noose.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
I acknowledge that there are organizations that commit these crimes ( I mention Hamas, RK mentions Al. whosis martyrs) , but to equate the behavior of these people with the PA is not only wrong but counter-productive. It's tantamount to finding equivalence between the government of the UK and the Ulster Volunteer Force . Even this falls short as there is no real "government" in re the Palistianin people.

Have a look of the Annual Report of Amnesty International for the period Jan-Dec 2002 (http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/pse-summary-eng)

I have mentioned it before because very few people know it, even those that the follow the events from a close distance...

The Occupied Territories are divided in three zones :

In the first one the PA has the overall control, in the second zone it shares the control with the Israelis and to the third zone the control belongs to the Israeli occupying forces.

So, the PA administrates the OT and the President of the Administration is Yasser Arafat.

Why do you find that shocking that the Palestinian Establishment commits crimes against the Palestinian people?

I didn't equate the suffering of the Palestinians under the Israeli Occupation with the suffering under the PA but I do not understand why we never discuss about the violations of Human Rights by the Palestinian Authority. Is it a taboo subject?

Yesterday you mentioned that the loss of Edward Said was a great one. Do you know that Arafat himself had banned his books to the Occupied Territories?

Why none talks about those things?

You might wish to use the quote feature, it will be easier to read your posts.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


The Palestinians that live in the Occupied Territories don't seem to have any particular problem with the Queen of Jordan ( she is or Palestinian origin) when she poses dressed in Yves Saint Laurent...

She isn´t trying to run the show with the PA, or is she? Honestly, I have not even heard about her trying to help Palestinians.


In our days the problems are solved by lobbying and not by bombs. Palestinians need people --like the late Said-- to talk passionately but with civility for their causes they do not need terrorists.

And so does Israel, I suppose. They would also need enough authority, some kind of power base, so that they could stop the violence. That cannot be done with words alone - and certainly not with violence alone.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by evildave

If you're told to bomb an apartment complex or hospital without warning, there's a very good chance there will be a LOT of babies in there.

If you're routinely told to bomb apartment complexes, neighborhoods, hospitals and such, I'd say that's pretty much cumulatively guaranteeing you're baby-murdering.

Suppose you're ordered to bomb an enemy bomb-making factory that was purposfully placed in an apartment building so it wouldn't get bombed? Is that still an illegal order?

If the apartment building is bombed anyway, who is responsible for the loss of civilian life? The pilot who drops the bomb? Or the ones who placed the bomb-making factory in the apartment building?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by evildave
In any event, when it comes to the war crimes trials, the fact that you were "only following orders" is not going to keep your neck away from the noose.

This was beautifully shown by the judge Benjamin Halevi in Eichmann's trial in Jerusalem.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Chaos

She isn´t trying to run the show with the PA, or is she? Honestly, I have not even heard about her trying to help Palestinians.

She fighst for the children of Palestine...



And so does Israel, I suppose. They would also need enough authority, some kind of power base, so that they could stop the violence. That cannot be done with words alone - and certainly not with violence alone.

Since I, an Israeli citizen ,am letting you know about what Israel does I expect to see typed by a European what the Palestinian Establishment does. For a change.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


She fighst for the children of Palestine...

Thanks for the info. Honestly.



Since I, an Israeli citizen ,am letting you know about what Israel does I expect to see typed by a European what the Palestinian Establishment does. For a change.

I was refering to both sides; sorry that it didn´t come out clear. I meant that anyone who is to end this conflict must both convince the people that peace is better than revenge, and then confront organisations like Hamas, because they will not just go away even if there is peace.

As for the palestinian establishment, I fear I have far less information about this than you. Our media very rarely report on anything palestinian except suicide bombers. I had never heard about Eward Said, for example, before that thread about him was posted.

I do not know what some Israelis, or Americans for that matter, think about the European media; they do not constantly rant about Israel, nor do they outdo each other in trivializing palestinian terrorism - at least not those I read. On the whole, they are no more anti-Israeli or pro-Palestinian than, say, TIME or Newsweek (which I read every week).

[Cleopatra]

I have a different opinion about the European Media and I intend to prove it to end this for once and for all.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


The Americans could learn a thing or two from the soldiers. They are very brave for taking a stand.

Not so fast.
Fighter pilot joins refusal letter, another airman backtracks (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/343998.html)

[TillEulenspiegel]

Cleo ,
In the US there was a book published "All I need to know to get through life I learned in kindergarten. The major premise is that the great moral lessons we need to incorporate into our charector, we are exposed to at an early age.

My mother always said "put Yourself in that person's position before You judge. There was a recent popular song in the US..."Walk a mile in my in my shoes", there was a recent movie where in the deep South of the US ( notorious for vestiges of racism) where a black man shoots two rednecks, ( hillbillys, ect., ) the term is derisive, who raped his seven year old daughter. He is tried by an all white ( meaning hostile ) jury. He is defended by a white lawyer who at the end of the film describes the torture and rape and beating and attempted murder of this little girl and delivers the punch line...."now imagine she's white".

Cleo, take the paragraphs written here , disassociate Yourself from any sentiment or conviction or even experience You may have had and substitute the word Palistinian with the word Israili or Jew and vice versa , for this to work You must become a "Tabla Rasa" a blank slate. It's a HARD thing to do try it and reflect on how you feel now.

How have your definitions of terrorist and patriot changed?
What kind of behavior do You find acceptable to fight the occupiers of Your land?
What do You now define as acceptable losses of innocents. ( this is not a casual exersize as the founders of Israel engaged in terrorist activities that killed innocents and representatives of various governments and NGO's )
What kind of latitude would You allow to accomplish state policy?
Will, in Your mind, the end justify the means?

I do not require ( nor do I wish ) any answers. These are questions that are a dialog between your intellect and your conscience.

In answer to your Reposte' The Amnesty report Prima Facia points blame ( mostly ) on the paramilitary groups on the Palistinian side....there are no clean hands here however. The reports condemn all sides in the issue so I don't agree that only the Israeli side gets complaints.

I was not aware of the banning of Said's books but to discuss that in light of the constant campaign of state sanctioned mass punishment by the IDF ( and the Israeli government) is like worrying about getting Your formal shoes wet on the Titanic. One can simply not expect any people to act in a democratic manner or even a responsible manner until the reality on the ground exists to form a functional government.

P.S. sorry bout the quote thing , it just seems to take up so much space and be les linear then a reply to a point by point fashion.

[Cleopatra]

I liked your post because it has passion. :)

Before I answer to you though I want to ask you something. IF you wish you can answer to my question.

Are you associated with any of the implicated parts?

Are you Palestinian or Israeli?

[TillEulenspiegel]

I'm sorry, Whom are you adressing?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
I'm sorry, Whom are you adressing?

I was addressing you, I am sorry, I didn't quote you because I posted my message directly after yours.

So, IF you wish can you tell me if you are Palestinian or Israeli? :)

[Kevin_Lowe]

I'm neither Palestinian nor Israeli, and I pretty much agree with Till Eulenspiegel.

If that matters.

[Cleopatra]

I will wait for Till Eulenspiegel to answer in order to reply to both of you.

[TillEulenspiegel]

No I'm niether Cleo

"Are you associated with any of the implicated parts?"

Well as I blame much of what is transpiring in the middle East on Pres.Bush's lack of attention to the problem, as an American I feel somewhat culpable.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke

[Cleopatra]

Thanks for answering my question,TillEulenspiegel.

You weren't born in the eastern part of Jerusalem ( as I was),the one that is known as the Arabic Sector- you haven't played with kids in the streets of this magnificent city(palestinian kids mostly), you haven't wandered as a kid under its hot sun, you haven't met in Jerusalem your first love, he didn't teach you his language and costumes, you haven't received strange looks from fellow citizens for holding the hand of a Palestinian, your Palestinian parents haven't made you scenes for dating an Israeli, you haven't served the Army, you didn't have to stare your old Palestinian friends while wearing the uniform of the IDA, you didn't have to find a way to explain to them why you love your country and why in the same time, you can't live withour their friendship, you haven't escorted friends to the cemetary, you don't download your e-mails every morning with the fear that you will learn that somebody you know is dead, you haven't received a call from your Palestinian, muslim neighbour to learn that your grandmother is dead but you shouldn't worry because she, a muslim, has taken care of the jewish costums until you arrive...

Nothing of the above has ever happened to you and yet you can't be a tabula rasa.

Why you ask me to become tabula rasa although you can't even tolerate the truth in the form of the reports of Amnesty International?

Why you pressume that the fact I am an Israeli excludes the possibility of my being empathic about what the Palestinians are going through?

Why do you imply that stop being what I am is the prerequisite to understand what is going on?

Maybe you that are not associated with any of the implicated parts must show me how to become what you ask.

If you can't do it how can you ask such a thing from me?

And to make a long story short: I was born in Israel, I am an Israeli citizen, I am proud of what I am and I am proud of my family's history.

I am doing my best for a better country and as I have said many times here when the Palestinian state will be a fact I will be proud of it for I will have contributed to its creation as well.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Thanks for answering my question,TillEulenspiegel.

You weren't born in the eastern part of Jerusalem ( as I was),the one that is known as the Arabic Sector- you haven't played with kids in the streets of this magnificent city(palestinian kids mostly), you haven't wandered as a kid under its hot sun, you haven't met in Jerusalem your first love, he didn't teach you his language and costumes, you haven't received strange looks from fellow citizens for holding the hand of a Palestinian, your Palestinian parents haven't made you scenes for dating an Israeli, you haven't served the Army, you didn't have to stare your old Palestinian friends while wearing the uniform of the IDA, you didn't have to find a way to explain to them why you love your country and why in the same time, you can't live withour their friendship, you haven't escorted friends to the cemetary, you don't download your e-mails every morning with the fear that you will learn that somebody you know is dead, you haven't received a call from your Palestinian, muslim neighbour to learn that your grandmother is dead but you shouldn't worry because she, a muslim, has taken care of the jewish costums until you arrive...

Nothing of the above has ever happened to you and yet you can't be a tabula rasa.

Why you ask me to become tabula rasa although you can't even tolerate the truth in the form of the reports of Amnesty International?

Why you pressume that the fact I am an Israeli excludes the possibility of my being empathic about what the Palestinians are going through?

Why do you imply that stop being what I am is the prerequisite to understand what is going on?

Maybe you that are not associated with any of the implicated parts must show me how to become what you ask.

If you can't do it how can you ask such a thing from me?

And to make a long story short: I was born in Israel, I am an Israeli citizen, I am proud of what I am and I am proud of my family's history.

I am doing my best for a better country and as I have said many times here when the Palestinian state will be a fact I will be proud of it for I will have contributed to its creation as well.

Cleo Your prose is sad and evocative of both man's inhumanity and his occasional altruistic nature. That You posses an understanding of the nature of the conflict on the ground and in a very personal sense is a given. I should have recognized your involvement. I did not know that You are Israeli, but it makes little difference to the argument at hand. To exclude any licence on my part to engage in criticism or moral judgment of either party because I have not suffered the traumas You have however, is non-senseical.

The disassociation of any real critique because of distance is something I have addressed in my posts, where was the moral imperative before WWII when all were silent because of fear or distance ( the US ). I state as much in my post in Re Israel and the US thread. The disparity and differing weight of our respective views are the stuff of philosophical debate I.E. Does one have to experience these things to make a moral judgment for either side? I believe not. I did not have to go to Cambodia to know what was transpiring was pure evil , nor to render judgement. I do not have to travel to Africa to see children with no arms because they were amputated ( No that's to clean a phrase...chopped off by rusty machetes by criminals ) to feel anguish or recognize the evil of that situation.

So I am sorry for the psychological maelstrom you must experience every time you discuss these incidents that have shaped you as a human being but to exclude the judgment of people not involved is a misstep, disinterested ( or at least those not directly involved ) parties often have the most balanced outlook. See Solomen

I now would like to address something that bothers me, You constantly accuse me of various sleights of rhetoric (unfounded ) and when I ask you to show me where or demonstrait you don't, that is not cricket and worthy only of a lesser mind.

Examples :

Cleo :"Funny. When somebody posts undocumented views that condemn the Israeli policy you don't have difficulties to accept them..."

Till : Please show me where I am guilty of this.

You never did

Cleo : "Why you ask me to become tabula rasa although you can't even tolerate the truth in the form of the reports of Amnesty International? "

Till : "In answer to your Reposte' The Amnesty report Prima Facia points blame ( mostly ) on the paramilitary groups on the Palistinian side....there are no clean hands here however. The reports condemn all sides in the issue so I don't agree that only the Israeli side gets complaints"

Cleo : "Why do you find that shocking that the Palestinian Establishment commits crimes against the Palestinian people?"

I ask You once again where I have said this or indicated this is the case.

If I am to be indited , I at least expect that there is some proof of my crime.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel

If I am to be indited , I at least expect that there is some proof of my crime.

Patriot Act, dude. They don't have to provide any evidence. :D

[Earthborn]

Cleopatra:As others in this forum ( Unique, Earthborn etc ) that claim that they follow the issue from a close distanceYou take that back this instant! I never claimed that I follow the issue from up close! :)

I don't. I don't know zilch about this conflict. The only thing I do know is that it is a heck of a lot more complicated than some posters pretend it to be.

The only thing I ever did is provide the view of the other side if I felt a thread was extremely one sided. If there were more people who diliberately misrepresent the Israeli, I don't think I would hestitate to point out their unfairness.

I have never claimed that I know more (or even 1/10th) about this conflict than you do. I hardly even disagree with you!

[a_unique_person]

Cleopatra, if you don't start behaving, we will all start posting to your appreciation thread.

[Cleopatra]

Cleon : You resemble to your namesake, the Athenian rhetor Cleon, sometimes ;)

Earthborn : I take my comment back, it's the confidence in your words when you condemn Israel that must have misleaded me :)

Unique : The silence of your absence from this particular thread was ...defeaning and I took it as a really flattering compliment but yet you have to try harder ...

[Earthborn]

Earthborn : I take my comment back, it's the confidence in your words when you condemn Israel that must have misleaded me :)I dare you to find any statement made by me condemning Israel.

I don't think I ever made such a statement, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

[Cleopatra]

TillEulenspiegel

I thought that you have read in other threads about my origin but even you haven't I think that you would understand since none can support Israel these days without being an Israeli, this is the sad truth.

Criticizing Israel is one thing, blaming everything on Israel though is quite different and this is what I try to fight.

The last thing Israel needs right now is blind support and my American friends seem to have difficulty in understanding this. Blind support to Israel and to Ariel Sharon will lead to the destruction of Israel and I do not wish to see my country destroyed.

From the other hand, the least the Palestinian Authority needs right now is blind support as well and that not in order to keep the balance, I admit that in this case it's unfair to ask for balance but after 1967 Palestinians became part of the problem.

Palestinians are to blame too for this dead-end.

Let me come to your questions.

I wasn't referring personally to you when I said that you are comfortable with unsupported anti-Israeli comments I was referring generally to people in this forum. For example for months I have been claiming that the Israeli Government tends to turn our democratic constitution into an aparheit regime and none asked for evidence...

The paramilitia the report of AI refers to are group directly related to the PA. You might have aknowledged that there are no "clean hands" but immediately after that you asked me to free myself from the bias.

Even if I weren't an Israeli I wouldn't be more biased than you are at least this is what I think.

Yes, you gave me the impression that you find shocking the report that the PA commits crimes because you claimed in previous posts that you follow the issue from a close distance, you are a member of Amnesty International and yet you have never heard about the tortures so I pressumed that you must be shocked that's why you posted in response a quite sentimental post when you asked me to compare Palestinians to the drama of the black people in the South.

I have said it again but you must have missed it. If you compare what black people have been through with what Palestinians have to face in the check-points you are wrong again.

Palestinians are in a far worse situation.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Cleo,
Evedently we are disagreeing about agreeing...I believe our respective positions are almost in lock step......

Let me make VERY clear that I condemn without equivocation the actions of the fanatics who board busses and indiscriminately kill all w/ bombs strapped to themselves ( or other equally apocalyptic scenarios ).

I believe that main point of contention that we ( and others ) share is the logic of equivalency, such :

hamas = terror group that murders civilians , Arafat and the PA = hamas, therefor Arafat and PA = terrorists.

The real disconnect here is that Arafat does NOT control hamas or the 72 virgin idiots brigade or what ever terrorists flavor of month happens to be. That is a ruse for the Israeli right and religious wing of the knesset would have us believe. It is simply not true , those groups bascially told Arafat to shove it when he asked for a cessation of hostilties, and stated thier own agendas. Much the same way Sharon told the US to shove it when pressured on the construction of new settlements and distruction of the others in re Oslo.
Sharon : "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

Some point to the fact that Arafat's differing speech in regards to arabic (which is intended for at home consumption ) and english ( which is intended for the world ) to demonstrate his culpability. This is nonsense . All politicians on the world stage dissemble this way it is the norm. Gorbachev did it , Sharon does it ( in hebrew "never serrender one inch of jewish land!", in english Sharon said Israel will "immediately" begin to remove unauthorized residential outposts in the West Bank and Gaza strip. Stopping all settlement construction is a major element of the peace plan". They all lie, it is realpolitik.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Oh and by the way happy Yom Kippur