Creationism in European Schools

[fishbait]

From the Detroit Free Press (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080209/NEWS07/80209025)
Creationism vs. evolution: a battle familiar to Americans flares in Europe
Creationism is still a marginal issue here compared with its impact on cultural and political debate in the United States. But the budding fervor is part of a growing embrace of evangelical worship throughout much of Europe. Looks like Ken Hamm is going international with his steaming pile of nonsense.

[Nogbad]

To be honest I haver heard of them - just asked my 17 year old who did biology as a subject a couple of years ago if she came across this stuff and she said that there was nothing like that - creationism was discussed in one session as a class thing and then they got on with the science. I haven't seen any articles like that in a UK paper (not to say there hasn't been one). London is a big place and a church of 150 is not exactly very representative. The only thing that is notable is that they are getting so much material from the US - they would not have the people or resources in Europe to fund that sort of operation.

I would say their influence is marginal at best and that if they are invited into schools it is most likely the few small Christian ones rather than any of the big state schools. I am pretty certain there are fairly strict rules about who can come in and spout off to the kids. I would be none too impressed if our school invited them in. 6,000 to 12,000 years indeed!

My daughter had heard of Ken Hovind though - he is apparently something of an internet joke amongst kids.

[dann]

We (Danish skeptics)
http://www.skeptica.dk/2005/id_artikel.htm
http://www.skeptica.dk/2005/id_artikel2.htm
were a little worried 2½ years ago when the ID people seemed to be on the offensive, but they did not have much success.

I've translated and posted an article about school education in Denmark in another context (porn and sex ed)
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3420114#post3420114
which makes it pretty clear that religion does not play a big role in Danish schools.

[blauregen]

In the german speaking area there are a few minor groups following the evangical movement in the U.S.

Political demands to teach creationism alongside with evolution are only represented by a fringe party, the 'Partei Bibeltreuer Christen' ( party of christians faithful to the bible ) and are widely and cheerfully ignored.

According to a survey (http://www.fowid.de/fileadmin/datenarchiv/Evolution_Kreationismus_Deutschland__2005.pdf) in 2005 the vast majority of interviewed participants (60.9%) considered evolution to be the best theory for the origin of species with I.D ( 25% ) and other creationist views ( 12,5 % ) far behind.

Among regular churchgoers I.D. and other creationist views are favored with 45.9% and 44.3% respectively.

[dann]

Don't forget Karin Wolff, Minister of Education in Hessen!
http://www.skeptica.dk/2008/Held2008.htm
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2222454,00.html

[blauregen]

I have to admit this. In our defense: she took flak for it from nearly everywhere and it isn't official party line.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

To be honest I haver heard of them - just asked my 17 year old who did biology as a subject a couple of years ago if she came across this stuff and she said that there was nothing like that - creationism was discussed in one session as a class thing and then they got on with the science. I haven't seen any articles like that in a UK paper (not to say there hasn't been one). London is a big place and a church of 150 is not exactly very representative. The only thing that is notable is that they are getting so much material from the US - they would not have the people or resources in Europe to fund that sort of operation.

I would say their influence is marginal at best and that if they are invited into schools it is most likely the few small Christian ones rather than any of the big state schools. I am pretty certain there are fairly strict rules about who can come in and spout off to the kids. I would be none too impressed if our school invited them in. 6,000 to 12,000 years indeed!

My daughter had heard of Ken Hovind though - he is apparently something of an internet joke amongst kids.

I wish you were right.

However in England the government has been quite happy to hand over control of schools to religious fundamentalists under the Foundation programme. Result is state funded schools teaching YEC and describing evolution as a faith position. Google "Vardy Creationism" for the grisly details.

[dann]

I have to admit this.

I don't blame you for Karin Wolff's creationist leanings! :)

[Nogbad]

I wish you were right.

However in England the government has been quite happy to hand over control of schools to religious fundamentalists under the Foundation programme. Result is state funded schools teaching YEC and describing evolution as a faith position. Google "Vardy Creationism" for the grisly details.

Would you buy a used school from this man? :)

I am aware of his involvement in "faith" schools and Blair's cooperation in this matter. However, how widespread are they? I am not aware of any in Scotland - although that doesn't mean there isn't one. The fact remains though that the national curriculum for biology includes natural selection and creationism not at all. How do their kids pass biology A level if they are not taught the full syllabus?

[ddt]

In Holland, we had a row over ID some 3 years ago too. Two scientists, a physicist and a mathematician, published a book about it. That would have gone quite unnoticed, I guess, if it hadn't been drawn attention to by the then-Minister of Education, Ms. Van der Hoeven, who wrote in her blog there should be a debate about ID in education. What followed were questions in parliament, some debates, and I guess the ID types crawled back under their rocks, because the debate has died down. With the current Minister of Education, a former genetics professor, there is of course no chance that ID will turn up in the official school curriculum.

It may be, though, that some protestant schools do give attention to ID or creationism. We have quite a lot (state funded) RC and protestant schools; most have watered down their religion to the point that it's no more than a Xmas celebration or such. But there is a small community of protestant fundies who take the Bible literally. There was a row last year about their broadcasting union: they had broadcast a BBC series of Sir David Attenborough, and had cut all references to evolution.

[Phaedrus74]

In Holland, we had a row over ID some 3 years ago too. Two scientists, a physicist and a mathematician, published a book about it. That would have gone quite unnoticed, I guess, if it hadn't been drawn attention to by the then-Minister of Education, Ms. Van der Hoeven, who wrote in her blog there should be a debate about ID in education. What followed were questions in parliament, some debates, and I guess the ID types crawled back under their rocks, because the debate has died down. With the current Minister of Education, a former genetics professor, there is of course no chance that ID will turn up in the official school curriculum.


Especially considering the fact that the funding extraordinary schools (roman-catholic, protestant, humanist, &c. &c.) get depends on the fact whether or not the education they offer is up to standard.

Also, I have never seen a politician backpaddle as fast as the dimwit former Minister of Education... (Thank God, they've given the job to a poper scientist)


It may be, though, that some protestant schools do give attention to ID or creationism. We have quite a lot (state funded) RC and protestant schools; most have watered down their religion to the point that it's no more than a Xmas celebration or such.


That's my experience form attending catholic schools ;)


But there is a small community of protestant fundies who take the Bible literally. There was a row last year about their broadcasting union: they had broadcast a BBC series of Sir David Attenborough, and had cut all references to evolution.

Fortunately they had the good sense of not including references to creation science and intelligent design. I'm guessing 400 years of freedom of religion has taught them which lines to cross and which ones to respect....

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Would you buy a used school from this man? :)

I am aware of his involvement in "faith" schools and Blair's cooperation in this matter. However, how widespread are they? I am not aware of any in Scotland - although that doesn't mean there isn't one.

Fortunately we do not have the insanity of Foundation schools in Scotland.

I do have a recollection that Vardy at some point talked about a desire to spread his lies with a Scottish school but I don't think it came to anything.

We do however have nutters like "Truth (sic) in Science" sending "education (sic) packs" to every school in the country.

[Nogbad]

I wasn't familar with TIS but I see that only 59 schools have taken up their packs. How many of the 59 leaned towards creationism anyway? Knowing our school's Head of Biology any such packs would be used to prop his table up. :)

[ddt]

Also, I have never seen a politician backpaddle as fast as the dimwit former Minister of Education... (Thank God, they've given the job to a proper scientist)
I wouldn't call her a dimwit, merely a bit naive. As far as an education career, she never got past primary school. :D


We have quite a lot (state funded) RC and protestant schools; most have watered down their religion to the point that it's no more than a Xmas celebration or such.
That's my experience form attending catholic schools ;)
I always attended public schools, but my mother was a secondary school teacher. End 70s, begin 80s, when unemployment was high, she took every temp replacement job available. The only time religion came up was when it came to (not) giving her tenure :(. There was also a protestant school which did indeed start the day with a morning prayer, so they took care in not scheduling her for the first hour.


There was a row last year about their broadcasting union: they had broadcast a BBC series of Sir David Attenborough, and had cut all references to evolution.
Fortunately they had the good sense of not including references to creation science and intelligent design. I'm guessing 400 years of freedom of religion has taught them which lines to cross and which ones to respect....
Or did their lawyers advise them in that? I guess when they had done that, they would have been open to a lawsuit from either Sir David or the BBC. Contractually, they were allowed to cut 5 minutes per part. So they left out the last part which would have required much more cutting.:D

[Phaedrus74]

I wouldn't call her a dimwit, merely a bit naive. As far as an education career, she never got past primary school. :D


Considering she's a Christian Democrat she should have known to keep her religion out of my politics....;)


I always attended public schools, but my mother was a secondary school teacher. End 70s, begin 80s, when unemployment was high, she took every temp replacement job available. The only time religion came up was when it came to (not) giving her tenure :(. There was also a protestant school which did indeed start the day with a morning prayer, so they took care in not scheduling her for the first hour.


Protestant schools tended to be a bit more stringent in this respect. Also the schools I attended were very liberal in most respects, my highschool actually had a viewing of "the Life of Brian" around Easter. :D



Or did their lawyers advise them in that? I guess when they had done that, they would have been open to a lawsuit from either Sir David or the BBC. Contractually, they were allowed to cut 5 minutes per part. So they left out the last part which would have required much more cutting.:D

I think the EO knows what they can and can't get away with without their lawyers, and to their credit they are the only Dutch broadcasting organisation airing these documentaries. I agree with you that they shouldn't have cut the passages, but I understand why they did it (and I'm actually a little bit proud that they have the freedom to do so).