A German Radical For Saddam Hussein

[Jedi Knight]

This is an interesting article about the leftist german minister (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6150)who attacked Mr. Secretary Rumsfeld.

JK

[Goshawk]

Interesting, I mean. So, because German's Foreign Minister was a radical 30 years ago, and still is something of a Leftie, that somehow disqualifies him from noticing, and announcing, that Rumsfeld et al haven't shown him any real proof that would justify the UN declaring war on Iraq?

Right. :rolleyes:

Link to Berman's original essay, if anybody's [yawn] interested...

http://www.tnr.com/082701/berman082701_partone.html

BBC bio of Fischer, if anybody's interested in some actual facts about an admittedly controversial guy (although hardly the Stooge for Saddam that the Front Page would make him out to be.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1107628.stm
In 2001 he was forced to apologise for his past as a left-wing militant when a series of pictures were published showing him as a bearded young demonstrator attacking a policeman in the street. JK, you lose points for posting the Front Page's blatant simplistic mudslinging as though it were somehow relevant. It was all dealt with over a year and a half ago, he apologized for his past, it's over. Everybody else has moved on--except for those people who are annoyed that Germany isn't "on the Iraq War bus", and who are forced to descend to juvenile "nyah nyahs" to find ammunition.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Goshawk
Interesting, I mean. So, because German's Foreign Minister was a radical 30 years ago, and still is something of a Leftie, that somehow disqualifies him from noticing, and announcing, that Rumsfeld et al haven't shown him any real proof that would justify the UN declaring war on Iraq?

Right. :rolleyes:

Link to Berman's original essay, if anybody's [yawn] interested...

http://www.tnr.com/082701/berman082701_partone.html

BBC bio of Fischer, if anybody's interested in some actual facts about an admittedly controversial guy (although hardly the Stooge for Saddam that the Front Page would make him out to be.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1107628.stm
JK, you lose points for posting the Front Page's blatant simplistic mudslinging as though it were somehow relevant. It was all dealt with over a year and a half ago, he apologized for his past, it's over. Everybody else has moved on--except for those people who are annoyed that Germany isn't "on the Iraq War bus", and who are forced to descend to juvenile "nyah nyahs" to find ammunition.

Just more proof of the communist-leftie tie in to the anti-war movement. Germany's Greens have come of age and are driving the anti-war stance of Germany....the Greens were a fledgling movement when I lived there in 78-81... I used to hang out in Greueneburg park with the hippies back then...(and yes Germany still had sixties type "hippies" in 78-81)...hey, they were fun and it was a great way to meet babes....but again....these peaceloving folks were useful pawns to a core group of communists. I stopped hanging around with them when it became obvious many of them thought the Bader-Meinhof and Red Brigades terrorists were freedom fighters.

You guys think my horror of communism is funny....it's not. Those guys really are out there...they're not dead...they're not sitting back twiddling their thumbs. What they are doing is what they've had great success in the past at....co-opting the pacifists. They've turned that into an art form over the last 35 years!

-zilla

[Goshawk]

Zilla, what is it exactly that you're worried that the Evil Commies are gonna do? They're a Spent Force, dude, they're history, literally. Even China's joining the big Capitalist Global Monopoly Game as fast as they can without losing face and making it seem like they're doing a total 180 and that maybe Mao was, well, wrong.

I mean, sheesh, you're making it sound like Dawn of the Dead, with the Evil Undead Commies riding the escalators at the mall.

:D

[Crossbow]

I have often been amazed at what some people think that the German Green Party is capable of.

In 1986 I had a West German college student tell me that the Green Party was going to re-unite East and West Germany and that it would be governed by the Soviet Union. I tried to be polite but skeptical and said something to the effect that I did not think such an event was very likely.

In any case, a few years later there was no Berlin Wall, no East Germany, and no USSR.

Ugh!

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Goshawk
Zilla, what is it exactly that you're worried that the Evil Commies are gonna do? They're a Spent Force, dude, they're history, literally. Even China's joining the big Capitalist Global Monopoly Game as fast as they can without losing face and making it seem like they're doing a total 180 and that maybe Mao was, well, wrong.

I mean, sheesh, you're making it sound like Dawn of the Dead, with the Evil Undead Commies riding the escalators at the mall.

:D


ROFLMAO!
:D

Good one...

As far as the commies go,....hell, I don't know. I see stuff about the Worker's World Party...and ANSWER in relation to peace protests...and I remember what a grim and sorry bunch of a-holes the German fan-base for Bader-Meinhof were. (I was in Germany...just an 18 year old kid in 78) Bader-Meinhof and Red Brigades were the first examples of communism I'd been exposed to up close. That and the E. German border guards at Fulda.

It made an impression. So I was pretty put off when the first time I visited England and met my soon to be sister in law. She lived in a student group house in Bristol...which came complete with a heroic poster of Lenin in the bathroom.

So, world communism is dead....well it was supposed to be after the wall fell....but again why the re-surgance of IMF-WB protestors with Che Guavara posters? Why the WWP and ANSWER? What sustains North Korea, and Cuba whos communist revolutions have become even more entrenched after the fall of the wall?? Why the fleet of buses from the old communist bloc...full of people willing to be human shields for Saddam??? (the report I saw said that their trip was sponsored by a commie organization)

So,what's all that about then??? I would like very much NOT to see communist influences in the peace movement....but it happened pretty obviously durning Vietnam...and it seems to me the usual suspects are back at it.

-zilla

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Goshawk
Interesting, I mean. So, because German's Foreign Minister was a radical 30 years ago, and still is something of a Leftie, that somehow disqualifies him from noticing, and announcing, that Rumsfeld et al haven't shown him any real proof that would justify the UN declaring war on Iraq?

Right. :rolleyes:

Link to Berman's original essay, if anybody's [yawn] interested...

http://www.tnr.com/082701/berman082701_partone.html

BBC bio of Fischer, if anybody's interested in some actual facts about an admittedly controversial guy (although hardly the Stooge for Saddam that the Front Page would make him out to be.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1107628.stm
JK, you lose points for posting the Front Page's blatant simplistic mudslinging as though it were somehow relevant. It was all dealt with over a year and a half ago, he apologized for his past, it's over. Everybody else has moved on--except for those people who are annoyed that Germany isn't "on the Iraq War bus", and who are forced to descend to juvenile "nyah nyahs" to find ammunition.

There is a time to be a team player--that time is now. This is starting to remind me of Southern Europe when the newly evolving EU basically sealed its borders so all those "Muslims" couldn't get out of box.

You know, I think most of the recent Islamic immigration to Europe is due in large part to the collective European guilt of what Europe didn't do for the masses killed by snipers, artillery and concentration camps in the former Yugoslavia. Europe is great at looking back and seeing the "what ifs" when dealing with humanitarian issues and after a year or two Europe's conscience begins to show, but getting some European states to look forward with humanitarian thinking seems to be an impossible hurdle.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Today, remarkably, Tony Blair (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2765705.stm) has said exactly what I have said in my previous post.

Not acting on Iraq is Chamberlainism. Blair has it right. It is Europe going backwards.

JK

[rikzilla]

Without exaggeration, the Feb. 15 anti-war actions couldn't be more timely and will be a clarion call for peace and sanity heard in Washington and around the world. In view of this, we have to make the Feb. 15 peace march the top priority for the next few weeks. Nothing is more important! Nothing will have such a far-reaching impact on every struggle that the people of our country are engaged in!

What is required is emergency action. Our aim should be to immediately join with others in an effort to organize the peace majority across our land to turn out for the mass marches on both coasts. We have to find the practical ways to make Feb. 15 the biggest peace action in our nation's history.

We have arrived at a critical juncture in the struggle for peace. Let's help make Feb. 15 a history-making event. Let's get to work.



---Sam Webb Leader of the Communist Party USA (http://www.cpusa.org/article/static/518/)

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by rikzilla


---Sam Webb Leader of the Communist Party USA (http://www.cpusa.org/article/static/518/) But the fact that communists support the peace marches does not make the peace marches communist?

From your source:

As of Jan. 28, 50 U.S. cities have passed resolutions against a war with Iraq.Since the American communist party support the resolutions, are the resolutions communistic? I refuse to believe these cities are run by communists (Jedi, don't answer that, I know you disagree). :p

Twice, a majority of the Norwegian people voted 'no' to become a member of the EU. Both times, the communists voted no. I think they represented less than 1% of the people. Obviously, they didn't make the anti-EU movement a communistic movement, even if the pro-EU side tried to say so.

I might even find something you and the communists agree upon ... :)

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Bjorn
But the fact that communists support the peace marches does not make the peace marches communist?

The fact that communists support the peace marches does not make the marches themselves communist. However, the leadership organizing the marches (at least here in the US) are basically communist groups. This makes the marches suspect as far as I am concerned. Do I think most people with anti-war views are communists? Certainly not. But when the leadership of a movement supports the sorts of things that ANSWER and Not In Our Name support, it makes you think twice about the motivations behind the marches.

I might even find something you and the communists agree upon ... :)

You could probably find at least some subject that any two groups could agree on. But that doesn't change the leadership of the movement.

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by Advocate
However, the leadership organizing the marches (at least here in the US) are basically communist groups. Is that a fact?

Further, why are communists more opposed to a war against Iraq than other people?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Bjorn
Is that a fact?

Further, why are communists more opposed to a war against Iraq than other people?

ANSWER (http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=314605&#post314605) is organizing the protests. (Except the New York one today, which was organized by United for Peace & Justice.) They are basically a front group for WWP, which broke off from the Socialist Workers Party when the SWP refused to speak out in support of the Soviet invasion of Hungary in the 50s.

The WWP is opposed to a war against Iraq because they are opposed to any such act by the US, no matter who we act against.

I had hopes that the anti-war movement would start to break away from ANSWER, and the protest in New York is certainly a good start. It's disheartening that so many are willing to attend protests in Los Angeles and San Francisco organized by ANSWER.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Bjorn
But the fact that communists support the peace marches does not make the peace marches communist?

From your source:

Since the American communist party support the resolutions, are the resolutions communistic? I refuse to believe these cities are run by communists (Jedi, don't answer that, I know you disagree). :p

Twice, a majority of the Norwegian people voted 'no' to become a member of the EU. Both times, the communists voted no. I think they represented less than 1% of the people. Obviously, they didn't make the anti-EU movement a communistic movement, even if the pro-EU side tried to say so.

I might even find something you and the communists agree upon ... :)

Here are my thought on the marches. I think that people will do whatever they can do to get out of fighting. No one really wants to see a bunch of killing taking place in another country, and only 1 out of every 100 men wants to go do it.

Now, it really doesn't make much of a difference what group sponsors the peace marches (although A.N.S.W.E.R. is a communist organization with ties to Communist North Korea), because they are basically telling "the people" what they want to hear anyway.

What is happening is the Vietnamization of protests even though there has been no war. "The people" are being told by A.N.S.W.E.R that Vietnam-type protests from the 60's era are the way to influence western governments into inaction. (hey, where is all that free love, baby ;))

Communist organizations, especially with Asian connections, would select such an antiquated tactic because it worked for them. It also shows the Iraq/Iran/North Korea link in the axis of evil.

Once that is settled then it becomes matter of moral understanding. Do we want to disarm Saddam? You bet. I think people don't really understand that need to disarm Saddam because they haven't seen masses of people being killed by the weapons he has developed yet.

Perhaps the greatest reason to take Saddam out of power is freeing his people--a moral humanitarian objective. This part puzzles me because I don't see how people can protest a hands-off on Iraq, thus keeping millions of people enslaved.

JK

[Bjorn]

Aerocontrols,

You're probably right, but why would American communists be more opposed to the war than other people?

I can't see any reason why they should be Saddam-friendly, he's not exactly a a guy a union-member socialist worker would want for an employer?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Bjorn
Aerocontrols,

You're probably right, but why would American communists be more opposed to the war than other people?

I can't see any reason why they should be Saddam-friendly, he's not exactly a a guy a union-member socialist worker would want for an employer?

First off, let's get their position straight: WWP doesn't oppose war, it opposes the US. WWP supports guerrilla movements all over the world, and doesn't put out any effort to stop most of the wars in the world today.

They oppose this war because American communists have signed onto the anti-globalization cause. (Very ironic, considering that Marx was probably one of the original globalists)

They aren't Saddam-friendly, they're America-unfriendly. They sided with Milosevich (sp?), too.

MattJ

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
This is an interesting article about the leftist german minister (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6150)who attacked Mr. Secretary Rumsfeld.

JK
Aussenminister Fischer is the man and don't you people forget it. You should all have a banquet in his honor and post a monument somewhere in his name.


:p

Schtonk

Zee

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman

Aussenminister Fischer is the man and don't you people forget it. You should all have a banquet in his honor and post a monument somewhere in his name.


:p

Schtonk

Zee

Hey, no fair! I use that quote sometimes lol. That is what Plato said during his trial in response to when he was asked what level of punishment he deserved.

JK

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by rikzilla



ROFLMAO!
:D

Good one...

As far as the commies go,....hell, I don't know. I see stuff about the Worker's World Party...and ANSWER in relation to peace protests...and I remember what a grim and sorry bunch of a-holes the German fan-base for Bader-Meinhof were. (I was in Germany...just an 18 year old kid in 78) Bader-Meinhof and Red Brigades were the first examples of communism I'd been exposed to up close. That and the E. German border guards at Fulda.

It made an impression. So I was pretty put off when the first time I visited England and met my soon to be sister in law. She lived in a student group house in Bristol...which came complete with a heroic poster of Lenin in the bathroom.

So, world communism is dead....well it was supposed to be after the wall fell....but again why the re-surgance of IMF-WB protestors with Che Guavara posters? Why the WWP and ANSWER? What sustains North Korea, and Cuba whos communist revolutions have become even more entrenched after the fall of the wall?? Why the fleet of buses from the old communist bloc...full of people willing to be human shields for Saddam??? (the report I saw said that their trip was sponsored by a commie organization)

So,what's all that about then??? I would like very much NOT to see communist influences in the peace movement....but it happened pretty obviously durning Vietnam...and it seems to me the usual suspects are back at it.

-zilla

baader meinhoff were pretty scarey, but they achieved as much as the symbionese liberation army, and lasted about as long.

I think the idea that a few intellectuals who thought it was incumbent upon them to start a popular revolution, and then found out they were not so popular, is long gone.

Vietnam was a case of the US gone mad, and building up inexorably from what was a pretty simple case of nationalism to a violent war in which, in case you didn't notice, many more vietnamese died than americans ever did.

[a_unique_person]

JK, you wouldn't think much of Daniel Pipes, either, would you.