Palestinian Kiddie Show, or Watch Me Pull a Rabbit Out of My Hate

[BPSCG]

Link (http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD184108)

A new character has joined the cast of the Hamas TV children's show "Pioneers of Tomorrow" - Assud the Bunny.

Assud's return from "the diaspora" followed the death of his brother, Nahoul the Bee, on the show. Nahoul was depicted as dying because he could not get to a hospital in Egypt for surgery. Assud states, "We are all ready to sacrifice ourselves for the sake of our homeland. We will sacrifice our souls and everything we own for the homeland"; program host Saraa Barhoum concurs. He also vows to "get rid of the Jews and eat them up."

It will be recalled that Nahoul himself replaced Farfour, the Hamas mouse, who was killed by an Israeli soldier on the show in June 2007. "Why do they hate us?" The answer's easy: Because they're carefully taught.

[a_unique_person]

Link (http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD184108)

"Why do they hate us?" The answer's easy: Because they're carefully taught.

It's a bit more complicated than that.

http://www.intifada.com/palestine-d.jpg

[JoeEllison]

It's a bit more complicated than that.


Yeah, it is... but, why let reality get in the way of things?

[BPSCG]

It's a bit more complicated than that.

http://www.intifada.com/palestine-d.jpg

Yeah, it is... but, why let reality get in the way of things?I'm sorry, I was mistaken. Palestinian kiddie shows do not teach Palestinian children to hate the Jews.

Are you gentlemen satisfied now?

[BPSCG]

I hear the Palestinians are going to invite that '60s one-hit-wonder pop duo, "Friend and Lover" to appear in an upcoming episode so they can sing their smash, Reach Out of the Darkness:

I think it's so groovy now
That people are finally getting together
I thinks it's so wonderful and how
That people are finally getting together
Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
And you may find a friend

I knew a man that I did not care for
And then one day this man gave me a call
We sat and talked about things on our mind
And now this man he is a friend of mine
Don't be afraid of love
Don't be afraid, don't be afraid to love
Everybody needs a little love
Everybody needs somebody
That they can be thinking of.

[WildCat]

It's a bit more complicated than that.


Yeah, it is... but, why let reality get in the way of things?
Ah, sweet denial! How comforting it is.

[Darth Rotor]

I hear the Palestinians are going to invite that '60s one-hit-wonder pop duo, "Friend and Lover" to appear in an upcoming episode so they can sing their smash, Reach Out of the Darkness:

[I]I think it's so groovy now
That people are finally getting together
I thinks it's so wonderful and how
That people are finally getting together
Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
Reach out in the darkness
And you may find a friend


I think Tom Lerher's song "National Brotherhood Week" is more apropos.

*scratches head*

When was the last time I used the word "groovy" in an other than sarcastic mode. 1973?

DR

[mrbaracuda]

I hear the Palestinians are going to invite that '60s one-hit-wonder pop duo, "Friend and Lover" to appear in an upcoming episode so they can sing their smash, Reach Out of the Darkness:[...][/I][/COLOR]

Well that's nice and all, but I prefer the "In black bags, chunks of flesh of Jews"-hit song, performed by the "Hamastan Five"!

Bh-rm0W1K5c

Ah, sweet denial! How comforting it is.

Aren't they cute? :rolleyes:

[Walk The Line]

Oftentimes I wonder what Palestinian society would be like if they had a leader in the mold of Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr., or Nelson Mandela. I guess we'll never know.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Link (http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD184108)

"Why do they hate us?" The answer's easy: Because they're carefully taught.

Another day another BPSCG thread on Palestinians. Plus ca change.

Naturally the killing of school teachers and school children has nothing to do with it nor assassinating untried people in circumstances that guarantee the deaths of innocent women and children nor the collective punishment of an entire people nor the building of apartheid walls and roads nor the bulldozing of the homes and olive groves of innocent people nor the stealing of their land nor the building of settlements against international law nor preventing students from getting to their classrooms nor the destruction of their infrastructure and their economy nor the breaking of agreements nor the contempt for international law etc etc etc have anything to do with it.

Do they really need to be carefully taught those things or are they just living through and dying from the collective punishment day after day after day?

[Ryokan]

Oftentimes I wonder what Palestinian society would be like if they had a leader in the mold of Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr., or Nelson Mandela. I guess we'll never know.

I don't think a Ghandi would live long in Palestine. It's a shame.

[Walk The Line]

I don't think a Ghandi would live long in Palestine. It's a shame.

Yes, that is a fair assessment.

[a_unique_person]

Ah, sweet denial! How comforting it is.

Excuse me, but I don't recall denying anything.

[Loss Leader]

"Why do they hate us?" The answer's easy: Because they're carefully taught.



Well, that's a little circular, isn't it?

I mean, they hate us because they're carefully taught. But they're carefully taught by their parents who already hate us. So, who taught the parents?

Eventually, you have to answer why anybody would start teaching the hate in the first place. And that answer is ... complicated.

[fuelair]

I'm sorry, I was mistaken. Palestinian kiddie shows do not teach Palestinian children to hate the Jews.

Are you gentlemen satisfied now?I keep getting the impression they won't be satisfied until the Israeli's just lie down in the middle of Israel and let the slime eating (pick the worst word you know) blow them all up with rockets and eat the leftovers. But gee maybe I'm prejudiced from watching and reading too many news items for the last 40 some odd years - letting reality in.

[WildCat]

And that answer is ... complicated.
I'll simplify it for you. Right now, Israel could kill every last Palestinian in quite a short time. They don't. If the firepower were reversed I don't think there would be a single Jew left alive in Israel. And the Palestinians would be no better off afterwards - they would still be ruled by religious fanatics who teach nothing but hate and celebrate death.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Well, that's a little circular, isn't it?

I mean, they hate us because they're carefully taught. But they're carefully taught by their parents who already hate us. So, who taught the parents?



In my personal experience, that's the source of all bigotry, whether anti-Semitism, racism, homophobia or any other prejudice you could name. The only reason it seems to exist is because parents carefully instruct their children in it as they were once instructed by their own parents, in a neverending and self-perpetuating cycle.

This is enspecially true in the society we live in, where racism can no longer be freely expressed in public among strangers and can only be fostered behind closed doors. When I read Richard Wright's Black Boy and The Autobiography of Malcolm X, it struck me how racism was like the air in those societies and individuals were racist mainly because they were unremovable from it.

That's no longer the case now. No bigot today picks up bigotry from the community, from neighbors, teachers, friends, etc. - they learn it all at home first.

[a_unique_person]

In my personal experience, that's the source of all bigotry, whether anti-Semitism, racism, homophobia or any other prejudice you could name. The only reason it seems to exist is because parents carefully instruct their children in it as they were once instructed by their own parents, in a neverending and self-perpetuating cycle.

This is enspecially true in the society we live in, where racism can no longer be freely expressed in public among strangers and can only be fostered behind closed doors. When I read Richard Wright's Black Boy and The Autobiography of Malcolm X, it struck me how racism was like the air in those societies and individuals were racist mainly because they were unremovable from it.

That's no longer the case now. No bigot today picks up bigotry from the community, from neighbors, teachers, friends, etc. - they learn it all at home first.

http://www.intifada.com/palestine-d.jpg

[a_unique_person]

I keep getting the impression they won't be satisfied until the Israeli's just lie down in the middle of Israel and let the slime eating (pick the worst word you know) blow them all up with rockets and eat the leftovers. But gee maybe I'm prejudiced from watching and reading too many news items for the last 40 some odd years - letting reality in.

http://www.intifada.com/palestine-d.jpg

[a_unique_person]

I'll simplify it for you. Right now, Israel could kill every last Palestinian in quite a short time. They don't.

The Russians didn't kill everyone they occupied, either. That didn't stop Reagan calling them the 'evil empire'.

[mrbaracuda]

Another day another BPSCG thread on Palestinians. Plus ca change.

Naturally the killing of school teachers and school children has nothing to do with it nor assassinating untried people in circumstances that guarantee the deaths of innocent women and children nor the collective punishment of an entire people nor the building of apartheid walls and roads nor the bulldozing of the homes and olive groves of innocent people nor the stealing of their land nor the building of settlements against international law nor preventing students from getting to their classrooms nor the destruction of their infrastructure and their economy nor the breaking of agreements nor the contempt for international law etc etc etc have anything to do with it.

Do they really need to be carefully taught those things or are they just living through and dying from the collective punishment day after day after day?

Looks like the propaganda's working on you. Good. But hey,

the building of apartheid walls and roads

stuff it? Funny though, "apartheit roads". That's a good one. "Yea, to blow yourself up in a shopping mall in Dimona you take the Apartheid Rd 66 up to Sderot and then the Apartheid Rd 25."

[gtc]

What is the context of the picture that you have now posted thee times and what point are you trying to make?

[JoeEllison]

Another day another BPSCG thread on Palestinians. Plus ca change.

Naturally the killing of school teachers and school children has nothing to do with it nor assassinating untried people in circumstances that guarantee the deaths of innocent women and children nor the collective punishment of an entire people nor the building of apartheid walls and roads nor the bulldozing of the homes and olive groves of innocent people nor the stealing of their land nor the building of settlements against international law nor preventing students from getting to their classrooms nor the destruction of their infrastructure and their economy nor the breaking of agreements nor the contempt for international law etc etc etc have anything to do with it.

Do they really need to be carefully taught those things or are they just living through and dying from the collective punishment day after day after day?

None of those things are real... or at least they aren't happening to "real" people. You can tell that Palestinians aren't really human beings to many of the people who support Israel's criminal behavior. It doesn't matter what happens to innocent Palestinians, because there aren't any innocents to the people who would justify these crimes against humanity. I guess that's the lesson that the Israelis learned from the Nazis: if you dehumanize your enemy, you can justify any treatment of them.

[JoeEllison]

Well, that's a little circular, isn't it?

I mean, they hate us because they're carefully taught. But they're carefully taught by their parents who already hate us. So, who taught the parents?

Eventually, you have to answer why anybody would start teaching the hate in the first place. And that answer is ... complicated.

In the real world, it is complicated. In the simplistic world of propaganda, it is because Palestinians are EVIL! It is exactly as ugly and stupid as antisemitic BS, only going in the opposite direction.

[gtc]

I guess that's the lesson that the Israelis learned from the Nazis: if you dehumanize your enemy, you can justify any treatment of them.

antisemitic BS,

You know, when I read your second post, I thought this line was about your first post.

But I guess you feel no qualms about suggesting that Israeli Jews learnt from the nazis.

[JoeEllison]

But I guess you feel no qualms about suggesting that Israeli Jews learnt from the nazis.
My only qualm is that I may have given the impression that ALL Israelis feel this way, which I don't believe for a minute.

Of course, some people like to pretend that anyone who criticizes Israel is antisemitic... which is a component of the simplistic thinking I'm talking about.

[gtc]

My only qualm is that I may have given the impression that ALL Israelis feel this way, which I don't believe for a minute.

Of course, some people like to pretend that anyone who criticizes Israel is antisemitic... which is a component of the simplistic thinking I'm talking about.

Not everyone who criticises Israel is anti-semitic. People who compare Israel to the Nazis are another matter. Particularly people who suggest that Israelis somehow learnt something from the Nazis. Even more particularly people who make such suggestions without any evidence whatsoever.

Obviously you can't see the difference.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Looks like the propaganda's working on you. Good. But hey,



stuff it? Funny though, "apartheit roads". That's a good one. "Yea, to blow yourself up in a shopping mall in Dimona you take the Apartheid Rd 66 up to Sderot and then the Apartheid Rd 25."

And your evidence is what. All the things I mentioned are facts. Facts seem to be a problem for you. Bit strange on a sceptics site I would have thought.

[JoeEllison]

Not everyone who criticises Israel is anti-semitic. People who compare Israel to the Nazis are another matter. Particularly people who suggest that Israelis somehow learnt something from the Nazis. Even more particularly people who make such suggestions without any evidence whatsoever.

Obviously you can't see the difference.

You're dishonest insistence that I'm antisemitic is a sign of your bias, since I'm very strongly not antisemitic. Making a comparison that you find unflattering and "mean" isn't a sign of antisemitism either.

The Holocaust was one of the most horrifying and tragic events in human history... but that doesn't mean that Israel gets a pass on its own crimes, just because they are on a lesser scale. Your claim to the contrary seems to show that you are unfairly biased in favor of Israel, not that others are racists.

[gtc]

Show some evidence to back up your 'guess' that the Israelis learnt lessons about how to deal with the Palestinians from the Nazis.

At the moment you are just making a very odious suggestion without evidence.

Also, I have no idea where you got the idea that I am suggesting that Israel deserves a 'pass' because what they are doing isn't as bad as the holocaust.

[E.J.Armstrong]

None of those things are real... or at least they aren't happening to "real" people. You can tell that Palestinians aren't really human beings to many of the people who support Israel's criminal behavior. It doesn't matter what happens to innocent Palestinians, because there aren't any innocents to the people who would justify these crimes against humanity. I guess that's the lesson that the Israelis learned from the Nazis: if you dehumanize your enemy, you can justify any treatment of them.

Exactly.

I think a refusal to see all Palestinians as anything other than criminals/terrorists/animals is unfortunately at the core of some posts on this thread and this site.

There are those who seem to believe that criticism of any of Israel's activities must by definition be anti-semitic rather than pro-decency and imply bizarrely that being pro apartheid or pro assassinating people in ways that guarantee innocent women and children are killed or pro sowing cluster bombs in civilian areas etc are somehow semitic acts rather than acts against humanity.

There are even those fanatics who believe that if Israel behaves like South Africa in the apartheid days you cannot make that comparison or like Germany during the war. This merely demonstrates contempt for the truth. Bizarrely, part of the process seems to involve trying to smear people who criticise the disgraceful behaviour rather than those who carry out the disgraceful behaviour.

They often seem to fail to accept that all terrorism is evil whether committed by the IDF or Hamas or Hezbollah and shamefully seem to be unable to accept that not every Israeli and Palestinian supports terrorism.

[Darth Rotor]

Yes, that is a fair assessment.

He didn't live all that long after Indian independence from the Brits, did he?

A nice detail from our friends at Wikipedia. Seems his movement had the sort of interfactional friction we see today among the Pals. Ceste la politics. :p
On January 30, 1948, Gandhi was shot and killed while having his nightly public walk on the grounds of the Birla Bhavan (Birla House) in New Delhi. The assassin, Nathuram Godse, was a Hindu radical with links to the extremist Hindu Mahasabha, who held Gandhi responsible for weakening India by insisting upon a payment to Pakistan.[20] Godse and his co-conspirator Narayan Apte were later tried and convicted; they were executed on 15 November 1949. Gandhi's memorial (or Samādhi) at Rāj Ghāt, New Delhi, bears the epigraph "Hē Ram", (Devanagari: हे ! राम or, He Rām), which may be translated as "Oh God". These are widely believed to be Gandhi's last words after he was shot, though the veracity of this statement has been disputed.[21] Jawaharlal Nehru addressed the nation through radio:

“ Friends and comrades, the light has gone out of our lives, and there is darkness everywhere, and I do not quite know what to tell you or how to say it. Our beloved leader, Bapu as we called him, the father of the nation, is no more. Perhaps I am wrong to say that; nevertheless, we will not see him again, as we have seen him for these many years, we will not run to him for advice or seek solace from him, and that is a terrible blow, not only for me, but for millions and millions in this country.[22]
A leader like Ghandi, among the Pals, is just as likely to catch hot lead for breakfast, given the talent for killing in evidence of late.

DR

[JoeEllison]

Show some evidence to back up your 'guess' that the Israelis learnt lessons about how to deal with the Palestinians from the Nazis.

At the moment you are just making a very odious suggestion without evidence.

Also, I have no idea where you got the idea that I am suggesting that Israel deserves a 'pass' because what they are doing isn't as bad as the holocaust.
LOL, the evidence of the entire history of modern Israel is my evidence. Obviously, one of us sees the oppression of the Palestinians as a bad thing, and one of us doesn't... or maybe you don't even see it as oppression, but as the most natural way for Israel to deal with them?

[Darth Rotor]

LOL, the evidence of the entire history of modern Israel is my evidence. Obviously, one of us sees the oppression of the Palestinians as a bad thing, and one of us doesn't... or maybe you don't even see it as oppression, but as the most natural way for Israel to deal with them?
Conquest tends to draw the lines on the map, and define who is in charge. Blood and iron draw borders. That's how it is, not necessarily how things "should be."

Been watching Kosovo and Bosnia lately?

DR

[JoeEllison]

And, as far as I can see, the compulsory military service in Israel is a great tool for promoting the dehumanizing of the Palestinians. The military always trains the troops to dehumanize "the enemy"... so is it any wonder that so many Israelis don't see their neighbors as being human? The real surprise is the number of Israelis who haven't been effectively brainwashed.

[E.J.Armstrong]

And, as far as I can see, the compulsory military service in Israel is a great tool for promoting the dehumanizing of the Palestinians. The military always trains the troops to dehumanize "the enemy"... so is it any wonder that so many Israelis don't see their neighbors as being human? The real surprise is the number of Israelis who haven't been effectively brainwashed.


There are many decent Israelis who should be supported in their activities in highlighting specific abominations heaped on Palestinians and Israelis.

[Pardalis]

LOL, the evidence of the entire history of modern Israel is my evidence.

Seems you got your answer gtc, with a LOL on top of it.

I don't think you can argue against such "evidence". :rolleyes:

[Pardalis]

And, as far as I can see, the compulsory military service in Israel is a great tool for promoting the dehumanizing of the Palestinians.

Is Israel the only country with a compulsory military service?

[JoeEllison]

There are many decent Israelis who should be supported in their activities in highlighting specific abominations heaped on Palestinians and Israelis.

Absolutely. The idea that there is a monolithic "Israeli" or "Palestinian" viewpoint is wrong and wrong-headed.

[Polaris]

What is the context of the picture that you have now posted thee times and what point are you trying to make?

All I see is a budding little terrorist vermin and a tank crew with more restraint than I have.

[mrbaracuda]

Facts seem to be a problem for you.

And your evidence is what. Bit strange on a sceptics site I would have thought.

[Jonnyclueless]

And, as far as I can see, the compulsory military service in Israel is a great tool for promoting the dehumanizing of the Palestinians. The military always trains the troops to dehumanize "the enemy"... so is it any wonder that so many Israelis don't see their neighbors as being human? The real surprise is the number of Israelis who haven't been effectively brainwashed.

Compulsory military service in no way acts as a tool to promote dehumanizing Palestinians. That's absurd. And to compare teaching children to hate when they are at an age where they can easily be manipulated? As opposed to military which happens when people are adults? Many countries have compulsory military service. The difference is that Israel has little choice in that they are in a constant state of war and are under constant attack from every surrounding country. Without such a thing, they would be wiped out.

If you lived in a neighborhood where you were constantly being robbed, mugged, attacked, raped, etc. You might be a bit defensive too (metaphorically).

[WildCat]

Absolutely. The idea that there is a monolithic "Israeli" or "Palestinian" viewpoint is wrong and wrong-headed.
But we know what the majority opinion in those countries are. Israel did not elect a government that pledged to wipe the Palestinians off the map. Nor are they doing so, despite the ability to do that.

The Palestinians, OTOH, have elected a genocidal terrorist group whose platform is the destruction of Israel and who are raising an entire generation of children to hate and pursue jihad and shahada.

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[ddt]

And, as far as I can see, the compulsory military service in Israel is a great tool for promoting the dehumanizing of the Palestinians. The military always trains the troops to dehumanize "the enemy"... so is it any wonder that so many Israelis don't see their neighbors as being human? The real surprise is the number of Israelis who haven't been effectively brainwashed.
For those of you who doubt the above: read this Haaretz article (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/909589.html) about research among Israeli soldiers during the first Intifadah. Just to remind you: that was the Palestinian teenagers throwing stones.

Some quotes to warm you up:
Immediately upon her arrival there was an incident that shook her. A few of the soldiers had arrived about a week before her "and had already managed to mess things up. They arrested someone and forgot him for three days in the shower.

Another soldier: "The most important thing is that it removes the burden of the law from you. You feel that you are the law. You are the law. You are the one who decides ...
The callousness of some of the soldiers produced extreme indifference to the Arabs' suffering: "We were in a weapon carrier when this guy, around 25, passed by in the street, and just like that, for no reason, he didn't throw a stone, did nothing - bang, a bullet in the stomach - he shot him in the stomach and the guy is dying on the sidewalk and we keep going, apathetic. No one gave him a second look."
Some junior commanders encouraged the brutality and even endorsed it. "After two months in Rafah a [new] commanding officer arrived ... So we do a first patrol with him. It's 6 A.M., Rafah is under curfew, there isn't so much as a dog in the streets. Only a little boy of four playing in the sand. He is building a castle in his yard. He [the officer] suddenly starts running and we all run with him. He was from the combat engineers. We all run with him. He grabbed the boy. Nufar, I am a degenerate if I am not telling you the truth. He broke his hand here at the wrist. Broke his hand at the wrist, broke his leg here. And started to stomp on his stomach, three times, and left. We are all there, jaws dropping, looking at him in shock ... The next day I go out with him on another patrol, and the soldiers are already starting to do the same thing."

[Drudgewire]

I've got to commend the OP for the thread title. I'm pretty torn on the issue as a whole but DAMN the Bullwinkle tie-in was clever. :)

[ddt]

The difference is that Israel has little choice in that they are in a constant state of war and are under constant attack from every surrounding country. Without such a thing, they would be wiped out.
Huh? Last I checked, Israel had peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Syria has no interest in attacking and neither has Lebanon. To say that Hezbollah is threatening Israels existence is ludicrous.

Compulsory military service in no way acts as a tool to promote dehumanizing Palestinians. That's absurd. And to compare teaching children to hate when they are at an age where they can easily be manipulated? As opposed to military which happens when people are adults? Many countries have compulsory military service.
Many countries do, but there are very few countries that maintain for the last 40 years an occupation. For most part, the IDF does not act as a defense force but as an occupation force in the territories. And that's where the dehumanizing aspect comes in: the lives of the Palestinians in the territories are worth jack **** to them. See my previous post.

Or see today's Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/954643.html):
A Palestinian woman who was refused access to an ambulance at an Israel Defense Forces checkpoint died in her village in the West Bank on Thursday, a Palestinian doctor and relatives said.

[Jonnyclueless]

I know countless Israelis who all served in the military and there are cases of abuse just like there is in any situation that can ever exist, it's not an accurate portrayal of the military. Trying to imply that compulsory military service turns everyone into hate mongers is simply absurd and baseless no matter how many books seek to find only the bad things that happen so as to create such an illusion.

And it cannot even be compared to teaching little children to go kill themselves and others. It's not teaching small children to hate. There are wrongs being committed on both sides, but there is no justification for teaching children or the mentally handicapped to kill. mandatory military service is not conditioning from childhood.

[JoeEllison]

I know countless Israelis who all served in the military and there are cases of abuse just like there is in any situation that can ever exist, it's not an accurate portrayal of the military. Trying to imply that compulsory military service turns everyone into hate mongers is simply absurd and baseless no matter how many books seek to find only the bad things that happen so as to create such an illusion.

And it cannot even be compared to teaching little children to go kill themselves and others. It's not teaching small children to hate. There are wrongs being committed on both sides, but there is no justification for teaching children or the mentally handicapped to kill. mandatory military service is not conditioning from childhood.

Right... and you're totally (Jonny)clueless. :D

You don't think that generations of Israelis being trained to hate and kill Palestinians hasn't had an effect on the culture? That's ridiculous.

[Jonnyclueless]

Huh? Last I checked, Israel had peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Syria has no interest in attacking and neither has Lebanon. To say that Hezbollah is threatening Israels existence is ludicrous.

So you are saying there is no one attacking from those borders? That no missiles are being launched form there? Israel could just dismantle the military protecting those sides and nothing would happen? Please tell us which is the only direction the attacks come from.

And are you going to say that Israel has not been attacked by its neighbors? Just because they have peace treaties does not mean they are under threat. And it clearly doesn't mean they have been in the past. Most of those countries want the destruction of Israel and would be more than happy to see it.


Many countries do, but there are very few countries that maintain for the last 40 years an occupation. For most part, the IDF does not act as a defense force but as an occupation force in the territories. And that's where the dehumanizing aspect comes in: the lives of the Palestinians in the territories are worth jack **** to them. See my previous post.

Well that's a very one sided way to put it. But did you bother to ask WHY there is occupation? Maybe those countries should have considered that before they went in and attacked Israel. Now those areas serve as buffer zones to protect Israel from such attacks. In some areas they have built housing on occupied lands, which is wrong. But that wasn't the purpose of the occupation. It was to provide a safety buffer which without Israel would be very vulnerable. And they have given back land. And the plan would be to give it all back. The problem is that no matter what they do, the attacks continue. If the attacks would stop, then the land could be given back. But so long as the fighting continues, it won't be given back.

But again, thank you or the one-sided take.

And wow, that's really noble of you to find an article that shows something bad on the Israel part. Would you like to keep score then? Would you like that I should simply post articles about things Paly's do? Do you think an Israeli's woman in a Palestinian area would be treated like a human?

You can try as much as you want, but there is no right side to this situation.

[Jonnyclueless]

Right... and you're totally (Jonny)clueless. :D

You don't think that generations of Israelis being trained to hate and kill Palestinians hasn't had an effect on the culture? That's ridiculous.

If I am clueless, then God help you. Israeli's aren't being trained to hate and kill, you just wish that was true. What's ridiculous is seeing adults actually think so.

BTW, by your logic, everyone here that has been in the military is trained to hate and kill people. Yeah, you surely have a clue.

[Pardalis]

You don't think that generations of Israelis being trained to hate and kill Palestinians hasn't had an effect on the culture? That's ridiculous.

Do you have any evidence that the Israeli army is training its troops to hate and dehumanize the Palestinians?

[JoeEllison]

If I am clueless, then God help you. Israeli's aren't being trained to hate and kill, you just wish that was true. What's ridiculous is seeing adults actually think so.

BTW, by your logic, everyone here that has been in the military is trained to hate and kill people. Yeah, you surely have a clue.

Hmmm... clearly, you're profoundly ignorant of the training that goes along with military service. I'm not. Every military goes out of their way to dehumanize the enemy... it is the only way to get decent people to shoot at them. It becomes problematic when your military is engaged in a long term occupation/police action, like the sort of thing Israel is engaged in. It works pretty good when the Marines taught me to kill the bad guys(killing people being the one main purpose of any fighting member of the military.) It isn't so great when you're manning a checkpoint with 99% civilians and the occasional 1% terrorist who looks no different from the civilians.

But, you know, if you want to tell me how they trained you at whatever military basic training you went through, and how it wasn't focused on killing people, I'm all ears.

[Pardalis]

So you're basically against all military training, and using it to make somekind of a point against Israel?

ETA: what you need to do now is to show proof that the Israeli army is teaching its troops to dehumanize the Palestinians, namely (not just "the ennemi"), and that this has had and is having an effect on the Israeli culture.

[a_unique_person]

What is the context of the picture that you have now posted thee times and what point are you trying to make?

The occupation is a factor that can't be ignored.

[Jonnyclueless]

Yeah, I think Joe's post speaks for itself. No need for me to even address it. Sure Israel has done bad things just like Palestine, but this is not a good argument.

[a_unique_person]

So you're basically against all military training, and using it to make somekind of a point against Israel?

ETA: what you need to do now is to show proof that the Israeli army is teaching its troops to dehumanize the Palestinians, namely (not just "the ennemi"), and that this has had and is having an effect on the Israeli culture.

They are taught the art of illegally occupying and controlling a civilian population, by force of arms if necessary. Many Israeli's object to this situation, but that is what all members of the IDF are expected to be prepared to do.

[Pardalis]

...

I wasn't talking to you was I?

[a_unique_person]

It's a free forum.

[Jonnyclueless]

They are taught the art of illegally occupying and controlling a civilian population, by force of arms if necessary. Many Israeli's object to this situation, but that is what all members of the IDF are expected to be prepared to do.

Of course that is completely untrue, but still has nothing to do with this claim that by having a military Israel is teaching people to hate and dehumanize Palestinians.

[a_unique_person]

Of course that is completely untrue, but still has nothing to do with this claim that by having a military Israel is teaching people to hate and dehumanize Palestinians.

It's true. The occupation is illegal, it is a problem for the occupier and the occupied.

The ordinary person finds it very hard to kill or harm someone else. Part of overcoming that aversion is to dehumanise the enemy.

[Pardalis]

AUP, if you can't follow the conversation, just move along.

Your interventions are irrelevant and nonsensical.

[Jonnyclueless]

It's true. The occupation is illegal, it is a problem for the occupier and the occupied.

The ordinary person finds it very hard to kill or harm someone else. Part of overcoming that aversion is to dehumanise the enemy.

And you're saying that what the Palestinians are doing is legal? No, it's not true that being in the Military teaches everyone to hate and dehumanize people. That's 100% pure ******** rhetoric. And it's being completely dishonest. Just like implying the whole situation is one sided. You don't mind one side doing illegal activities, just the other. This is a situation where there really is no legality, or at least none that matters, This is about two sides fighting for survival. neither of them gives a **** about laws made by outside forces, they each care about survival.

And in this case you cannot say it's illegal anyways. That's up for dispute. The reason being that the occupation is a self defense, not an offense. I know you don't want to believe that because i am sure this whole situation would be a lot easier for you if this were a movie in black and white where there's a good guy and a bad guy. But it isn't. There is no villain tying damsels to railroad tracks. From the law you are trying to use:

"Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security."

At the time they were at war with almost everyone around them, hence temporarily occupying those areas for protection. but until BOTH sides decide to make an effort, it's not going to happen. And let's face it. Because of religious beliefs, no amount of territory is going to matter. Unless all Israeli's convert to Islam, there are always going to be extremists who ruin everything. And right now the Palestinians seem to prefer those extremists.

[a_unique_person]

And you're saying that what the Palestinians are doing is legal? No, it's not true that being in the Military teaches everyone to hate and dehumanize people. That's 100% pure ******** rhetoric. And it's being completely dishonest. Just like implying the whole situation is one sided. You don't mind one side doing illegal activities, just the other. This is a situation where there really is no legality, or at least none that matters, This is about two sides fighting for survival. neither of them gives a **** about laws made by outside forces, they each care about survival.



I didn't say anything about the Palestinians. There are numerous threads started here about how bad the Palestinians are, it's not that simple. Pretending Isreal has not part in this problem is wrong.

The military teaches you how to kill. That doesn't mean everyone gets dehumanized, it does teach you how to do that.

It's a war, I agree. I hope it ends soon. Unfortunately, I can't see that happening.



At the time they were at war with almost everyone around them, hence temporarily occupying those areas for protection. but until BOTH sides decide to make an effort, it's not going to happen. And let's face it. Because of religious beliefs, no amount of territory is going to matter. Unless all Israeli's convert to Islam, there are always going to be extremists who ruin everything. And right now the Palestinians seem to prefer those extremists.

I don't know that they do. The extremists on both sides have been able to ruin it for everyone. Abbas is still in power in the West Bank, and seems to want peace. However, if he doesn't come up with the goods, I would not be surprised if the Palestinians try someone else who is not so conciliatory. In the meantime, settlements in the West Bank are still being developed and expanded.

[Mobyseven]

You don't think that generations of Israelis being trained to hate and kill Palestinians hasn't had an effect on the culture? That's ridiculous.

Let's take a walk down memory lane, shall we?

------------------------------------------------------------------

14th May, 1948: State of Israel comes into existence.

15th May, 1948: Israel is attacked by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq, launcing the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.

1950s: Israel is frequently attacked from the south by freedom fighters (primarily Egyptian)

1967: Egypt, Jordan and Syria massed troops close to Israeli borders, blocking Israel's access to the Red Sea, and also expelled UN Peacekeepers. Israel launched a pre-emptive strike which initiated the Six Day War.

1970s: Widespread campaign of Palestinian violence against Israeli targets, notably the massacre of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympic Games.

6th October, 1973: Egypt and Syria launched a surprise attack against Israel on Yom Kippur, the holiest holiday of the Jewish calendar, precipitating the Yom Kippur War.

1982: Israel intervened in the Lebanese Civil War, in order to destroy PLO bases being used to launch missiles and attacks into northern Israel. This precipitated the First Lebanon War.

1987: The First Intifada - Palestinian uprising in the occupied territories resulting in widespread violence and civil disobedience.

2000: The Second Intifada begins after Yasser Arafat rejects Ehud Barak's proposal for a Palestinian state.

2006: The Second Lebanon War begins, precipitated by the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah and Hamas.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, call me crazy, but it seems to me that perhaps there's a little bit more to matters than just, "...generations of Israelis being trained to hate and kill Palestinians..." that may have had an effect on the culture. Since its very beginning, Israel has been under attack from nearly all sides, and this hasn't changed recently. Is Israel blameless? Hell no! But core to their decision making process regarding the occupied territories and the like is national security, and any effort to pull out of the territories will require cooperation from all parties. Yeah, civilians get treated poorly and killed, and I don't condone that, but when you are operating in an area where the people who are trying to kill you look exactly the same as every other civilian, stuff like that is going to happen - and until Israel can safely pull out of the occupied territories it's probably going to stay that way.

Israel has done some bad stuff, yeah, but they're stuck between a rock and an explosive place. If you have a solution, I'm happy to hear it - until then try placing yourself in Israel's position before you pronounce them responsible for all the problems in the Middle East.

[a_unique_person]

and until Israel can safely pull out of the occupied territories it's probably going to stay that way.

Israel has done some bad stuff, yeah, but they're stuck between a rock and an explosive place. If you have a solution, I'm happy to hear it - until then try placing yourself in Israel's position before you pronounce them responsible for all the problems in the Middle East.

I don't think Israel would be any more or less secure than it is now if it pulled out of the occupied territories.

[Mobyseven]

I don't think Israel would be any more or less secure than it is now if it pulled out of the occupied territories.

It's a bit of a tricky issue, in my opinion. At the moment the occupied territories act as a bit of a buffer zone, and there are very real tactical advantages to having those territories should another war break out (the further from your recognised borders the combat takes place the better, for one). I don't condemn many of Israel's actions, but I don't necessarily condone them either. The treatment of the Palestinian people in many situations I condemn. Staying in the occupied territories...I can't condemn at the moment. It would certainly be better if they could pull out safely, but I don't see that as a likely occurance in the present situation.

The short version is that both sides in the conflict need to wake up and sort things out peacefully, before we end up with a situation orders of magnitude worse than it is now. Sadly, I don't see that happening in the present climate...

[a_unique_person]

As far as Jordan is concerned, it's at peace with Israel. There appears to be no further interest in the matter, or the Palestinians. The buffer argument doesn't really seem to be logical to me. The major threats are Syria and Hezbollah, who are to the North, not West.

I agree that both sides will have to accept compromises, but Abbas really needs something to show to his people, to demonstrate that peaceful negotiations get a result. At the moment, Hamas seems to be able to say it's methods get results.

[mrbaracuda]

Oh god, these Israeli - "Palestinian"-Threads bring out the best people it seems.
Now, I wanted to say something about that dehumanizing. To me, an outsider [of Israel], the "Palestinians" tend to dehumanize themselves pretty well with all their peace-loving acts, little kindergarten plays they put on, their choice of government officials or their sympathy for certain people.

[Mobyseven]

As far as Jordan is concerned, it's at peace with Israel. There appears to be no further interest in the matter, or the Palestinians. The buffer argument doesn't really seem to be logical to me. The major threats are Syria and Hezbollah, who are to the North, not West.

At the moment, yes, but the region is not noted for its stability. It's not how the West perceives the situation, but how Israel perceives the situation, and there are a large number of Israelis who lived through a time of uncertainty during which Syria (and Jordan if we go back just a tiny bit further to the Six Day War) were 'the enemy', and not noted for warning Israel prior to an attack or blockade.

I'd prefer Israel out of the occupied territories too - I think it would be a step forward - but I'm not going to condemn them for not withdrawing.

I agree that both sides will have to accept compromises, but Abbas really needs something to show to his people, to demonstrate that peaceful negotiations get a result. At the moment, Hamas seems to be able to say it's methods get results.

Entirely agreed.

[JoeEllison]

It's true. The occupation is illegal, it is a problem for the occupier and the occupied.

The ordinary person finds it very hard to kill or harm someone else. Part of overcoming that aversion is to dehumanise the enemy.

Except for the Israelis? Why is it that every argument in support of Israel's less-savory behavior assumes that Israel is a special exception to every rule? Military training teaches you to dehumanize the enemy... unless you are the IDF, in which case they teach you to snuggle with the enemy? How the hell did the thought processes of Israel's supporters get to be so broken?

[JoeEllison]

Oh god, these Israeli - "Palestinian"-Threads bring out the best people it seems.
Now, I wanted to say something about that dehumanizing. To me, an outsider [of Israel], the "Palestinians" tend to dehumanize themselves pretty well with all their peace-loving acts, little kindergarten plays they put on, their choice of government officials or their sympathy for certain people.

Here's another one of those racist, dehumanizing posts... I can't understand how people can openly proclaim their hatred towards other people, the way anti-Palestinian racists feel free to do.

[mrbaracuda]

Racist and dehumanizing? Uh, if you say it.

[Pardalis]

Why don't you answer my questions JoeEllison?

You made two specific claims. I'm asking you to provide proof.

[E.J.Armstrong]

And your evidence is what. Bit strange on a sceptics site I would have thought.
Still refusing to post evidence I notice. I posted evidence for my view namely your own words. I notice that once agin you have found that unnecessary. QED.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Why don't you answer my questions JoeEllison?

You made two specific claims. I'm asking you to provide proof.
Why don't you answer my questions Pardalis or is that something you only expect others to do. An y chance of you ever justifying your sinister insinuations? Seems not but then that seems to be your characteristic MO.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Here's another one of those racist, dehumanizing posts... I can't understand how people can openly proclaim their hatred towards other people, the way anti-Palestinian racists feel free to do.

It seems that they know no shame.

Calling a boy throwing stones at a tank vermin is a perfect example of the extremist viewpoint on the site. It betrays a cruelty and inhumanity that is simply breathtaking.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Racist and dehumanizing? Uh, if you say it.
I and the facts agree with him.

Your smears against the entire Palestinian people says it all when you claimed
'...the "Palestinians" tend to dehumanize themselves pretty well with all their peace-loving acts, little kindergarten plays they put on, their choice of government officials or their sympathy for certain people. ...'

Every single Palestinian child does this? Really. What aggressive racist views.

[Jonnyclueless]

Except for the Israelis? Why is it that every argument in support of Israel's less-savory behavior assumes that Israel is a special exception to every rule? Military training teaches you to dehumanize the enemy... unless you are the IDF, in which case they teach you to snuggle with the enemy? How the hell did the thought processes of Israel's supporters get to be so broken?

As opposed to you trying to justify teaching little children to kill people, to hate, and to blow themselves up being justified by a country having a military? How do you take that seriously? And it's not an issue of pro-Israel so much as it is correcting these false claims about Israel such as yours.

[Jonnyclueless]

I and the facts agree with him.

Your smears against the entire Palestinian people says it all when you claimed
'...the "Palestinians" tend to dehumanize themselves pretty well with all their peace-loving acts, little kindergarten plays they put on, their choice of government officials or their sympathy for certain people. ...'

Every single Palestinian child does this? Really. What aggressive racist views.

Actually it is part of the school curriculum. There are plenty of documentaries on it. The schools said they would love to teach things like math, but given the situation they have to teach the kids about how bad Israel is. Now you wanna talk about racism?

I am not saying one side is better than the other, but when something is an institutional policy, it's not exactly racist, except that the teachings of that policy are about hating another race. And the cartoon is a pretty good example as well.

EDIT: Please don't mistake this with the teachings of suicide bombings and weapons training etc , which are not policy but done b the extremists.

[JoeEllison]

As opposed to you trying to justify teaching little children to kill people, to hate, and to blow themselves up being justified by a country having a military? How do you take that seriously? And it's not an issue of pro-Israel so much as it is correcting these false claims about Israel such as yours.

You're lying about my position... which, considering what your position is, seems like your only option. Lying in support of your position lets me know how very poor you know it is, deep down.

[JoeEllison]

It seems that they know no shame.

Calling a boy throwing stones at a tank vermin is a perfect example of the extremist viewpoint on the site. It betrays a cruelty and inhumanity that is simply breathtaking.

Here's the thing: you and I are sick of innocents being killed on both sides. They believe that there are only innocents on one side, and the other side deserves whatever atrocities are dealt to them. I openly proclaim every single terrorist attack on Israeli civilians to be a criminal act of murder. Most of these racists would never even consider the possibility that any action by Israel could be worth criticizing, except possibly for being not nearly genocidal enough to suit them.

[Jonnyclueless]

And now we're pretending it's genocide? I imagine you think the Israeli's just wake up and say "Hey let's kill some random Palestinians because they killed some of our guys". That's not how it works. They go after the specific people behind the attacks. Unfortunately those people hide amongst the population and inevitably innocent people get killed.

No one is claiming the Israeli's are innocent. But there is a difference between collateral damage and simply going to kill anyone you can because of their race. What YOU are doing is trying to unfairly even the playing field and trying to pretend the motives are equal. And then you justify it by pretending that those who disagree with you are racist and think Israel can't be criticized. That's a cop out.

These two sides are in a catch 22 that's simply not possible to get out of. Israel could return all occupied land and it wouldn't change a thing. But it sure makes for a nice excuse.

[Pardalis]

JoeEllison, in post #35 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3437435&postcount=35) you claimed the Israeli army trains its troops to dehumanize the Palestinians, and in post #48 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3439186&postcount=48), you claimed that this fact (which has yet to be proven by you) has had an effect on Israeli culture.

Could you show us how you got that information?

Thanks.

[gtc]

I am absolutely flabbergasted as to how many people can see a Palestinian children's show where a rabbit teaches children about how wonderful it is to die for your religion and how Jews should be 'eaten' as being nothing but evidence about how bad the Israeli's are.

Does no-one have any comments to make about the show or are we to be treated to another few pages of how much the Israeli's have learnt from the Nazis and the white South African regime?

I notice that amidst the flurry of photos and allegations, only DDT has actually posted some evidence for their views or context for their claims.



A question: Is there any action that the Palestinians could take that would not be regarded as evidence of the evil of Israel?

[Pardalis]

I notice that amidst the flurry of photos and allegations, only DDT has actually posted some evidence for their views or context for their claims.

As much as what was in DDT's link was extremely shocking and sickening, it did not show a systematic policy of the Israeli army (although it showed a systematic problem). If JoeEllison has such a link that would prove his point that there is a deliberate and systematic training to dehumanizing the Palestinians, I would like to see it.

[Axiom_Blade]

These two sides are in a catch 22 that's simply not possible to get out of. Israel could return all occupied land and it wouldn't change a thing. But it sure makes for a nice excuse.

Wow. So, why do you think the Palestinians are fighting with the Israelis?
There's no reason behind it at all? Is it just because they like it?

ETA: Oh, wait, I forgot. It's because of their kiddie shows. Nevermind.

[Mobyseven]

Wow. So, why do you think the Palestinians are fighting with the Israelis?
There's no reason behind it at all? Is it just because they like it?

ETA: Oh, wait, I forgot. It's because of their kiddie shows. Nevermind.

Er...if Israel returns the occupied land it doesn't automatically become a Palestinian state - it will be returned to the countries who originally had the land (Jordan to the east (West Bank), Egypt to the west (Gaza Strip)). If you're suggesting that the only reason the Palestinians are fighting the Israelis is because of Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza, you're very, very wrong. If that's not what you're saying, just come out and say what you mean, rather than hiding behind rhetorical questions.

[a_unique_person]

I am absolutely flabbergasted as to how many people can see a Palestinian children's show where a rabbit teaches children about how wonderful it is to die for your religion and how Jews should be 'eaten' as being nothing but evidence about how bad the Israeli's are.

Does no-one have any comments to make about the show or are we to be treated to another few pages of how much the Israeli's have learnt from the Nazis and the white South African regime?

I notice that amidst the flurry of photos and allegations, only DDT has actually posted some evidence for their views or context for their claims.



A question: Is there any action that the Palestinians could take that would not be regarded as evidence of the evil of Israel?


Did they have this sort of thing before the occupation? Radical Islam has appeared to offer them a solution (that I don't believe will work) for a problem that has not been resolved for 40 years.

[gtc]

Did they have this sort of thing before the occupation?

I think so. What we call Radical Islam has been around for more than 40 years and Islamic anti-semitism goes back to the days of the Koran. I will see if I can dig up any specific examples or if anyone posts any concrete evidence.

But is this because of Israel's behaviour or because there are now more Jews to hate?

An example from Australia is anti-asian sentiment which was prevalent during the Gold Rush era. There were fewer examples during the White Australia Era but more during the 1970s and 1980s. Australians didn't become more racist towards Asians; there were simply more opportunities to express the racism.

An example of the former would be anti-asian sentiment in Australia. Such racism was fairly common at the beggining of the 20th century but

[Axiom_Blade]

Er...if Israel returns the occupied land it doesn't automatically become a Palestinian state - it will be returned to the countries who originally had the land (Jordan to the east (West Bank), Egypt to the west (Gaza Strip)). If you're suggesting that the only reason the Palestinians are fighting the Israelis is because of Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza, you're very, very wrong. If that's not what you're saying, just come out and say what you mean, rather than hiding behind rhetorical questions.

How would returning the land to Jordan and Egypt affect the Palestinians? Do you think they would be better or worse off than they are now?

Whenever I see something like this, I go with the most obvious answer. Why are they fighting? Because they're being occupied, and they don't like it. Now, I could be wrong. That's why I asked the question; so I could get more information and opinions on the topic. So, why am I "very, very wrong"?

[Mobyseven]

How would returning the land to Jordan and Egypt affect the Palestinians? Do you think they would be better or worse off than they are now?

Probably worse off - there have been issues in the past of a similar nature regarding Palestinian refugees. Somehow, I don't think Jordan (or Egypt) really fancies the idea of welcoming thousands of refugees into the country overnight.

Whenever I see something like this, I go with the most obvious answer. Why are they fighting? Because they're being occupied, and they don't like it. Now, I could be wrong. That's why I asked the question; so I could get more information and opinions on the topic. So, why am I "very, very wrong"?

They are fighting for many reasons. They are fighting because they are occupied. They are fighting because they (many of them anyway) are ideologically opposed to the nation of Israel and want it gone. They are fighting because they want their own nation. They are fighting for other reasons too.

The point is that pulling out of the occupied territories might have a beneficial effect or it might not. Personally, I believe that it would have a beneficial effect, though I can understand why Israel might think otherwise. However, pulling out will not stop the fighting, because it would only address one of the reasons that the Palestinians are fighting, and probably a less important reason than fighting on ideological grounds, or to establish a Palestinian nation.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Here's the thing: you and I are sick of innocents being killed on both sides. They believe that there are only innocents on one side, and the other side deserves whatever atrocities are dealt to them. I openly proclaim every single terrorist attack on Israeli civilians to be a criminal act of murder. Most of these racists would never even consider the possibility that any action by Israel could be worth criticizing, except possibly for being not nearly genocidal enough to suit them.

They seem to feel that the mass murder of innocents by 'accident' is completely acceptable because the IDF is doing it and as the world knows the IDF has never stopped even as much as one women with a heart condition from getting to hospital so she dies without proper medical assistance.

That behaviour is clearly, after all, the very soul of compassion.

[E.J.Armstrong]

JoeEllison, in post #35 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3437435&postcount=35) you claimed the Israeli army trains its troops to dehumanize the Palestinians, and in post #48 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3439186&postcount=48), you claimed that this fact (which has yet to be proven by you) has had an effect on Israeli culture.

Could you show us how you got that information?

Thanks.
Pardalis, you made a sinister insinuation about me. Could you show me the justification for that insinuation?

[Mycroft]

How would returning the land to Jordan and Egypt affect the Palestinians? Do you think they would be better or worse off than they are now?

Whenever I see something like this, I go with the most obvious answer. Why are they fighting? Because they're being occupied, and they don't like it. Now, I could be wrong. That's why I asked the question; so I could get more information and opinions on the topic. So, why am I "very, very wrong"?

The PLO formed in 1964, three years before the '67 war where Israel captured the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The PLO formed from a collection of previous existing terrorist organizations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization#History

[gtc]

They seem to feel that the mass murder of innocents by 'accident' is completely acceptable because the IDF is doing it and as the world knows the IDF has never stopped even as much as one women with a heart condition from getting to hospital so she dies without proper medical assistance.

That behaviour is clearly, after all, the very soul of compassion.

And why is Israel wary of ambulances coming from Palestine?

Pardalis, you made a sinister insinuation about me. Could you show me the justification for that insinuation?

You have just agreed with Joe Ellison when he called everyone who disagreed with you a racist. Don't pretend to get precious all of a sudden.

[luchog]

Hmmm... clearly, you're profoundly ignorant of the training that goes along with military service. I'm not. Every military goes out of their way to dehumanize the enemy... it is the only way to get decent people to shoot at them. It becomes problematic when your military is engaged in a long term occupation/police action, like the sort of thing Israel is engaged in. It works pretty good when the Marines taught me to kill the bad guys(killing people being the one main purpose of any fighting member of the military.) It isn't so great when you're manning a checkpoint with 99% civilians and the occasional 1% terrorist who looks no different from the civilians.

But, you know, if you want to tell me how they trained you at whatever military basic training you went through, and how it wasn't focused on killing people, I'm all ears.
What a load of crap. There was nothing at any point in any of my Army training that had anything to do with dehumanizing enemies. Quite the opposite, in fact. And judging by the vast majority of jarheads that I have served with and have been friends with, neither does the Corps. At least not since Vietnam. In fact, part of what is taught is that while a high level of detachment is necessary in order to kill someone in a combat situation, it's also important to not dehumanize one's enemies, to remember that they are just as human as you are; because that can lead far too easily to making fatal mistakes under combat pressures, or lead to abuse of POWs and worse atrocities.

That doesn't stop people from individually dehumanizing enemies, and I noticed more than a few of my fellow soldiers doing so, and an unfortunately number of training cadre, but they were fully-fledged bigots long before they joined the service. When such mindsets were expressed vocally, they were, as I said, strongly discouraged, and leaders who expressed such bigotry were censured, and in one case received Article 15 administrative punishment.

If you are claiming to have been trained with that kind of dehumanizing bigotry, then either you were trained prior to or during the Vietnam era, you had a very bad DI who managed to escape official notice at the time, or you're flat-out lying or projecting your own bigotry on your trainers.

[Mycroft]

If you are claiming to have been trained with that kind of dehumanizing bigotry, then either you were trained prior to or during the Vietnam era, you had a very bad DI who managed to escape official notice at the time, or you're flat-out lying or projecting your own bigotry on your trainers.

I don't think Joe is personally claiming to have received any kind of military training. Rather, I think he just comes from that mind-set that assumes anything that has to do with military is inherently bad.

[luchog]

Did they have this sort of thing before the occupation? Radical Islam has appeared to offer them a solution (that I don't believe will work) for a problem that has not been resolved for 40 years.
This has been going on for many many centuries before the "occupation"; and for the same reason, they simply won't convert to Islam, or live under slave-like dhimmi status. To claim that the Jews are to blame for the current state of Palestine, or to blame them for the actions of radical Islamic groups (which are nothing new, they have had numerous counterparts throughout the existence of Islam) is to demonstrate either a virulent anti-semitism, or a profound ignorance of history.

The Hebron Massacre of 1929 (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebron29.html)
The 1920 Pogroms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots)
Pogroms and massacres of Jews in Morocco (http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=2&x_article=1114)
Massacres of jews by Palestinian Arabs prior to the official founding of the State of Israel. (http://middleeastfacts.com/weblog/israel/arab-massacres-of-jews-before-1948/)
Palestinian leader Mohammad Amin al-Husayni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni), who organized and incited numerous pogroms, riots, and other attacks on Jews during the 1920s-1940s, and who formed an alliance with Hitler to assist the Nazis in their "Final Solution".

Then there's the Genocide of the Armenians under the Ottoman Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide).

Or if you want something a little more historical:
The 1066 Granada Massacre, with over 4000 Jews killed by Muslims in Islamic-ruled Spain.
the late 14th and early 15 century sacking and massacres of over 150,000 mostly Sunni Muslims in Persia by radical Hanafite turned Shi'ite Muslim Timur Lenk; whose wars of conquest and empire building are responsible for millions of deaths in the Middle East and Europe.
The 1860 massacres of over 13,000 Marionite and Greek Orthodox Christians in Damascus and Mt. Lebanon.
The constant persecution and repeated massacres of millions of Persian Zoroastrians by the Arab Muslim conquerers of what is now modern Iran, over the course of centuries, the most notable example being the 18th century killing of over over 80,000, by the order of then-ruler Shah Sultan Hussein.
The late 10th and early 11th century massacres of Nizari Isma'ili Muslims by the dominant Sunni and Shi'ite sects; and their use of assasination and terrorist tactics to destabilize the ruling factions. This is one of the earliest known examples of the use of the terrorist tactics which have become the hallmark of modern radical Islamists.

Islamic fanatics have been massacring Jews, Druzes, Armenians, Christians, Ba'ha'i, Hindus, Zoroastrians, and each other for nearly as long as Islam has existed; usually shortly after demanding that they convert to Islam or die. Look up the history of the Nizari Isma'ilis for a real interesting example of just how "peaceful" and "tolerant" Islam and Islamic history is.

[JoeEllison]

They seem to feel that the mass murder of innocents by 'accident' is completely acceptable because the IDF is doing it and as the world knows the IDF has never stopped even as much as one women with a heart condition from getting to hospital so she dies without proper medical assistance.

That behaviour is clearly, after all, the very soul of compassion.

Well, they claim that the Palestinians deserve whatever happens to them, based on the flimsiest of excuses. What confuses me is that we ALL agree that Israelis should not be killed... why is it that only some of us respect human life when those lives belong to Palestinians?

[Mycroft]

Well, they claim that the Palestinians deserve whatever happens to them,


Who, specifically, has made that claim and where was it made?

[luchog]

I don't think Joe is personally claiming to have received any kind of military training. Rather, I think he just comes from that mind-set that assumes anything that has to do with military is inherently bad.
Nope, he did, in fact claim to have military training.


It works pretty good when the Marines taught me to kill the bad guys

Emphasis added.

[Mycroft]

Nope, he did, in fact claim to have military training.


Emphasis added.

Mea Culpa.

Hey, welcome to the thread. As always, your point of view is refreshing. :)

[Pardalis]

JoeEllison, in post #35 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3437435&postcount=35) you claimed the Israeli army trains its troops to dehumanize the Palestinians, and in post #48 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3439186&postcount=48), you claimed that this fact (which has yet to be proven by you) has had an effect on Israeli culture.

Could you show us how you got that information?

Thanks.

bump.

[a_unique_person]

This has been going on for many many centuries before the "occupation"; and for the same reason, they simply won't convert to Islam, or live under slave-like dhimmi status. To claim that the Jews are to blame for the current state of Palestine, or to blame them for the actions of radical Islamic groups (which are nothing new, they have had numerous counterparts throughout the existence of Islam) is to demonstrate either a virulent anti-semitism, or a profound ignorance of history.

The Hebron Massacre of 1929 (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebron29.html)
The 1920 Pogroms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots)
Pogroms and massacres of Jews in Morocco (http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=2&x_article=1114)
Massacres of jews by Palestinian Arabs prior to the official founding of the State of Israel. (http://middleeastfacts.com/weblog/israel/arab-massacres-of-jews-before-1948/)
Palestinian leader Mohammad Amin al-Husayni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni), who organized and incited numerous pogroms, riots, and other attacks on Jews during the 1920s-1940s, and who formed an alliance with Hitler to assist the Nazis in their "Final Solution".

Then there's the Genocide of the Armenians under the Ottoman Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide).

Or if you want something a little more historical:
The 1066 Granada Massacre, with over 4000 Jews killed by Muslims in Islamic-ruled Spain.
the late 14th and early 15 century sacking and massacres of over 150,000 mostly Sunni Muslims in Persia by radical Hanafite turned Shi'ite Muslim Timur Lenk; whose wars of conquest and empire building are responsible for millions of deaths in the Middle East and Europe.
The 1860 massacres of over 13,000 Marionite and Greek Orthodox Christians in Damascus and Mt. Lebanon.
The constant persecution and repeated massacres of millions of Persian Zoroastrians by the Arab Muslim conquerers of what is now modern Iran, over the course of centuries, the most notable example being the 18th century killing of over over 80,000, by the order of then-ruler Shah Sultan Hussein.
The late 10th and early 11th century massacres of Nizari Isma'ili Muslims by the dominant Sunni and Shi'ite sects; and their use of assasination and terrorist tactics to destabilize the ruling factions. This is one of the earliest known examples of the use of the terrorist tactics which have become the hallmark of modern radical Islamists.

Islamic fanatics have been massacring Jews, Druzes, Armenians, Christians, Ba'ha'i, Hindus, Zoroastrians, and each other for nearly as long as Islam has existed; usually shortly after demanding that they convert to Islam or die. Look up the history of the Nizari Isma'ilis for a real interesting example of just how "peaceful" and "tolerant" Islam and Islamic history is.

If you want to look up the history of wars and atrocities by those of various religious persuasions, history is full of them, not just Muslims. Part of the reason the Muslim Palestinians did not rebel against the Muslim Ottomans was that they knew full well what would happen if they did. There were even wars of conquest between Buddhists. :boggled:

[mrbaracuda]

If you want to look up the history of wars and atrocities by those of various religious persuasions, history is full of them, not just Muslims.

I can only guess why you mention this. :rolleyes:

[WildCat]

I don't think Joe is personally claiming to have received any kind of military training. Rather, I think he just comes from that mind-set that assumes anything that has to do with military is inherently bad.
On other threads Joe has claimed to have been in the Marines. Of course, anyone can claim anything on the internet.

[Mycroft]

If you want to look up the history of wars and atrocities by those of various religious persuasions...

He wasn't looking up the history of wars and atrocities, he was answering your very specific question, "Did they have this sort of thing (violent hatred of Jews) before the occupation?"

And the answer is yes, they did.

[Morrigan]

I am absolutely flabbergasted as to how many people can see a Palestinian children's show where a rabbit teaches children about how wonderful it is to die for your religion and how Jews should be 'eaten' as being nothing but evidence about how bad the Israeli's are.

Does no-one have any comments to make about the show or are we to be treated to another few pages of how much the Israeli's have learnt from the Nazis and the white South African regime?

That reminds me of that paper by some (Israeli) woman who objected to the fact that there is a systematic policy of no rape in the Israeli military, which of course means that Israelis are racists, since they don't even consider the Palestinian women as human enough to rape!

By the way, JoeEllison - please learn what "intellectual honesty" means. You are not fooling anyone with your dishonest tactics.

[JoeEllison]

By the way, JoeEllison - please learn what "intellectual honesty" means. You are not fooling anyone with your dishonest tactics.
Nothing dishonest in anything I've posted. If you don't like it or don't get it... *shrugs* I don't know what to tell you. Find someone to give you a hug and make it all better?

[steverino]

I think a refusal to see all Palestinians as anything other than criminals/terrorists/animals is unfortunately at the core of some posts on this thread and this site.

I have read every post, and have not yet read any that, at its core, says that all Palestinians are criminals/terrorists/animals.

And, yes, comparing Israeli defense to the Nazis is indeed anti-Semitic. The metaphor infers that the Israel army vs. Palestinian fighters is a similar, but less intense, equation to the Nazi SS vs. the survivors in the concentration camps.

I guess had Anne Frank strapped bombs to herself to take out half of the Bergen-Belsen guards, then we'll talk.

[Mycroft]

I guess had Anne Frank strapped bombs to herself to take out half of the Bergen-Belsen guards, then we'll talk.

I think a better analogy would be if the Israelis were building slave labor camps where Palestinian-Arabs died by the hundreds of thousands.

[a_unique_person]

I can only guess why you mention this. :rolleyes:

I can only guess what you mean by this. :boggled:

[mrbaracuda]

I can only guess what you mean by this. :boggled:

And what's that? :) :p

[Morrigan]

Nothing dishonest in anything I've posted. If you don't like it or don't get it... *shrugs* I don't know what to tell you. Find someone to give you a hug and make it all better?

Yeah, nothing dishonest in suggesting that all military training teaches dehumanization of the enemy, nor in suggesting that people here said the Palestinians "get what they deserve". And, of course, smarmy comments about others "needing a hug" is the epitome of scholarly, thoughtful discussion, perhaps?

[JoeEllison]

Yeah, nothing dishonest in suggesting that all military training teaches dehumanization of the enemy, nor in suggesting that people here said the Palestinians "get what they deserve". And, of course, smarmy comments about others "needing a hug" is the epitome of scholarly, thoughtful discussion, perhaps?

Not scholarly, since I'm an informal kind of guy. Not dishonest, either. Again, what do you want? Maybe a cookie? :rolleyes:

[Akhenaten]

I am a retired member of the Australian Defence Force with 25 years experience.

This whole idea of claiming that military training involves "dehumanisation" of the enemy is ridiculous.

One of the major functions of military intelligence is to gather information about the enemy, so that this information can be disseminated and used by "our side". The reason for this is fairly obvious I would have thought.

Knowing the enemy well is an extremely important part of formulating a strategy for defeating him, and painting anything other than an accurate picture of him with which your troops must then operate is tactically unsound.

In short, my military experience actually put a more human face on the enemy than I would have myself.

I've just re-read Luchog's post on this subject, and it appears our experiences have been very similar in this regard

As for the Palestinian kiddie shows - an abomination. In the face of behaviour like that, I find the most puzzling aspect of Israel's response is how restrained they are.

[E.J.Armstrong]

I have read every post, and have not yet read any that, at its core, says that all Palestinians are criminals/terrorists/animals.

And, yes, comparing Israeli defense to the Nazis is indeed anti-Semitic. The metaphor infers that the Israel army vs. Palestinian fighters is a similar, but less intense, equation to the Nazi SS vs. the survivors in the concentration camps.

I guess had Anne Frank strapped bombs to herself to take out half of the Bergen-Belsen guards, then we'll talk.

Unfortunately the thread gives the lie to your claims. The very first post asks "Why do they hate us?" implying every single Palestinians hate the Jews without evidence for it whatsoever. Interestingly that doesn't seem to be a problem for you.

mrbaracuda then stated "... Well that's nice and all, but I prefer the "In black bags, chunks of flesh of Jews"-hit song, performed by the "Hamastan Five"!..' Given that the topic was Palestinians what is the implication there? Peace and friendship clearly.

fuelair in another racist argument clearly and specifically aimed at all Palestinians stated "I keep getting the impression they won't be satisfied until the Israeli's just lie down in the middle of Israel and let the slime eating (pick the worst word you know) blow them all up with rockets and eat the leftovers.'

Darth Rotor then claimed "A leader like Ghandi, among the Pals, is just as likely to catch hot lead for breakfast, given the talent for killing in evidence of late. "
Polaris then stated "All I see is a budding little terrorist vermin and a tank crew with more restraint than I have."

So Palestinians are vermin and flesh eaters etc.. It is clear that you lied when you said you had read the thread and there were no posts "...that, at its core, says that all Palestinians are criminals/terrorists/animals. ..."

Similarly when you imply that being anti-racist is somehow anti-semitic you imply that to be semitic is to be racist. That has to be one of the cretinous arguments I have ever seen.
But I forgot the sinister MO includes claiming that being anti specific Israeli policies is anti-semitic and attempting to smear those who want some humanity as you have tried to do.

[E.J.Armstrong]

I am a retired member of the Australian Defence Force with 25 years experience.

This whole idea of claiming that military training involves "dehumanisation" of the enemy is ridiculous.

One of the major functions of military intelligence is to gather information about the enemy, so that this information can be disseminated and used by "our side". The reason for this is fairly obvious I would have thought.

Knowing the enemy well is an extremely important part of formulating a strategy for defeating him, and painting anything other than an accurate picture of him with which your troops must then operate is tactically unsound.

In short, my military experience actually put a more human face on the enemy than I would have myself.

I've just re-read Luchog's post on this subject, and it appears our experiences have been very similar in this regard

As for the Palestinian kiddie shows - an abomination. In the face of behaviour like that, I find the most puzzling aspect of Israel's response is how restrained they are. If you have that length of service then you may have experience of Australis assistance to the USA's lunacy in Vietnam where monstrous behaviour including killing two year old children and massacring many others and being treated lightly by the US military and throwing people from helicopters was in evidence. No dehumanisation there clearly.

I know British soldiers who served in Iraq recently and saw first hand the contempt a number in the US military showed to the people they were supposed to be helping.

[volatile]

I remember reading in The God Delusion about an experiment done with school kids.One group were given a the Biblical account of God smiting his enemies to allow his people to settle Israel (the Book of Joshua), and the other were given the same story with the names and locations changed.

http://www.machineslikeus.com/cms/the-problem-with-religion-4-corrupting-the-minds-of-children.html


Unsurprisingly, Jewish kids in group 1 saw no problem with God's actions or those of Joshua, whereas those in group 2 thought it unfair, unjust, mean and troubling.

Extended quote from Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion, page 255:

Tamarin presented to more than a thousand Israeli school children, aged between eight and fourteen, the account of the battle of Jericho in the book of Joshua:Joshua said to the people, 'Shout; for the LORD has given you the city. And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the LORD for destruction. . . But all silver and gold, and vessels of bronze and iron, are sacred to the LORD; they shall go into the treasury of the LORD.'. . . Then they utterly destroyed all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and asses, with the edge of the sword. . . And they burned the city with fire, and all within it; only the silver and gold, and the vessels of bronze and iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.
Tamarin then asked the children a simple moral question: 'Do you think Joshua and the Israelites acted rightly or not?' They had to choose between A (total approval), B (partial approval) and C (total disapproval). The results were polarized: 66 percent gave total approval and 26 percent total disapproval, with rather fewer (8 percent) in the middle with partial approval. Here are three typical answers from the total approval (A) group:In my opinion Joshua and the Sons of Israel acted well, and here are the reasons: God promised them this land, and gave them permission to conquer. If they would not have acted in this manner or killed anyone, then there would be the danger that the Sons of Israel would have assimilated among the Goyim.


In my opinion Joshua was right when he did it, one reason being that God commanded him to exterminate the people so that the tribes of Israel will not be able to assimilate amongst them and learn their bad ways.


Joshua did good because the people who inhabited the land were of a different religion, and when Joshua killed them he wiped their religion from the earth.
The justification for the genocidal massacre by Joshua is religious in every case. Even those in category C, who gave total disapproval, did so, in some cases, for backhanded religious reasons. One girl, for example, disapproved of Joshua's conquering Jericho because, in order to do so, he had to enter it:I think it is bad, since the Arabs are impure and if one enters an impure land one will also become impure and share their curse.
Two others who totally disapproved did so because Joshua destroyed everything, including animals and property, instead of keeping some as spoil for Israelites:I think Joshua did not act well, as they could have spared the animals for themselves.
I think Joshua did not act well, as he could have left the property of Jericho; if he had not destroyed the property it would have belonged to the Israelites.
Once again the sage Maimonides, often cited for his scholarly wisdom, is in no doubt where he stands on this issue: 'It is a positive commandment to destroy the seven nations, as it is said: Thou shalt utterly destroy them. If one does not put to death any of them that falls into one's power, one transgresses a negative commandment, as it is said: Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth.'

Unlike Maimonides, the children in Tamarin's experiment were young enough to be innocent. Presumably the savage views they expressed were those of their parents or the cultural group in which they were brought up. It is, I suppose, not unlikely that Palestinian children, brought up in the same war-torn country, would offer equivalent opinions in the opposite direction. These considerations fill me with despair. They seem to show the immense power of religion, and especially the religious upbringing of children, to divide people and foster historic enmities and hereditary vendettas. I cannot help remarking that two out of Tamarin's three quotations from group A mentioned the evils of assimilation, while the third one stressed the importance of killing people in order to stamp out their religion.

Tamarin ran a fascinating control group in his experiment. A different group of 168 Israeli children were given the same text from the book of Joshua, but with Joshua's own name replaced by 'General Lin' and 'Israel' replaced by 'a Chinese kingdom 3,000 years ago'. Now the experiment gave opposite results. Only 7 per cent approved of General Lin's behavior, and 75 percent disapproved. In other words, when their loyalty to Judaism was removed from the calculation, the majority of the children agreed with the moral judgments that most modern humans would share. Joshua's action was a deed of barbaric genocide. But it all looks different from a religious point of view. And the difference starts early in life. It was religion that made the difference between children condemning genocide and condoning it.What was that about brainwashing?

[gtc]

mrbaracuda then stated "... Well that's nice and all, but I prefer the "In black bags, chunks of flesh of Jews"-hit song, performed by the "Hamastan Five"!..' Given that the topic was Palestinians what is the implication there? Peace and friendship clearly.

You must have missed the OP.

It was the bunny rabbit who said that he wanted to eat the flesh of the Jews.

Do you have anything to say about that show?

[a_unique_person]

I am a retired member of the Australian Defence Force with 25 years experience.

This whole idea of claiming that military training involves "dehumanisation" of the enemy is ridiculous.

One of the major functions of military intelligence is to gather information about the enemy, so that this information can be disseminated and used by "our side". The reason for this is fairly obvious I would have thought.

Knowing the enemy well is an extremely important part of formulating a strategy for defeating him, and painting anything other than an accurate picture of him with which your troops must then operate is tactically unsound.

In short, my military experience actually put a more human face on the enemy than I would have myself.

I've just re-read Luchog's post on this subject, and it appears our experiences have been very similar in this regard

As for the Palestinian kiddie shows - an abomination. In the face of behaviour like that, I find the most puzzling aspect of Israel's response is how restrained they are.

I don't find the occupation of 40 years by the IDF any indication of restraint. They aren't slaughtering civilians wholesale, but they have subjugated a civilian population. The downward spiral of desperation on the part of the Palestinians is testament to that, IMHO. The shows are by Hamas, who only have effective control of Gaza, the West Bank seems to have effectively rejected their win in the election. We have no real idea to what extent they reflect the views of Palestinians in general, or to what extent hamas propaganda has been used to alter public opinion.

[gumboot]

I am a retired member of the Australian Defence Force with 25 years experience.

This whole idea of claiming that military training involves "dehumanisation" of the enemy is ridiculous.


I don't strictly think it's ridiculous. While you're right that the humanity (motivations, desires, flaws) of the enemy is a vital component in military intelligence, military intelligence comprises a tiny fraction of the military.

In regards combat troops, especially infantry, one of their primary functions is killing enemy soldiers. The killing of one human by another human requires that the killer overcomes their natural resistance to killing another human. A primary source of that resistance is recognition of the victim's shared humanity.

Thus an important part of conditioning in the military is to deny the victim's humanity. The use of modern shooting targets that depict enemy soldiers on them is an example of this. Humanising the target has the reciprocal effect of dehumanising actual humans in combat.

[Pardalis]

We have no real idea to what extent they reflect the views of Palestinians in general, or to what extent hamas propaganda has been used to alter public opinion.

I agree, we only hear about the extremists. Hamas and Hizbullah have completely taken over the "Palestinian cause" as their own, but I'm sure everyday Palestinians don't agree with their actions. I'd like to know what they think.

[Morrigan]

Not scholarly, since I'm an informal kind of guy. Not dishonest, either. Again, what do you want? Maybe a cookie? :rolleyes:
Edited to remove inappropriate remark.

Keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks or insults to argue your point.

If you have that length of service then you may have experience of Australis assistance to the USA's lunacy in Vietnam where monstrous behaviour including killing two year old children and massacring many others and being treated lightly by the US military and throwing people from helicopters was in evidence. No dehumanisation there clearly.

I know British soldiers who served in Iraq recently and saw first hand the contempt a number in the US military showed to the people they were supposed to be helping.

The fact that atrocities were committed does not indicate that there is a systematic policy of dehumanizing going on in a military, let alone all of them.

Unless you think that some occurrences of suicide bombers by Palestinians is an indication that there is a systematic policy of terrorism in Palestine...?

[a_unique_person]

There appears to be a systematic policy of not doing anything about them other than a court martial that finds them innocent. That sends a pretty clear message.

[Darth Rotor]

I don't think Joe is personally claiming to have received any kind of military training. Rather, I think he just comes from that mind-set that assumes anything that has to do with military is inherently bad.
Joe was at one time a US Marine, MOS Field Artillery. That means he had to do Boot Camp at either Parris Island, or MCRD San Diego. That's military training. Yes.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3261006#post3261006

Bad guess, Mycroft.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

There appears to be a systematic policy of not doing anything about them other than a court martial that finds them innocent. That sends a pretty clear message.
Yes, and the message includes an adherence to due process of law, no lynching, and all the imperfections that entails. Funny how fingers get stuck in ears on that bit, isn't it?

DR

[a_unique_person]

Yes, and the message includes an adherence to due process of law, no lynching, and all the imperfections that entails. Funny how fingers get stuck in ears on that bit, isn't it?

DR

Due process? More like a show trial. An officer orders his recruits to fire at a Palestinian village. A Palestinian is killed. The officer is tried, then promoted. Due process.

[E.J.Armstrong]

And why is Israel wary of ambulances coming from Palestine? If you are wary of an ambulance you check it and allow it through if it does not contain weaposn. You do not force people to die when there are no weapons as the IDF has done.



You have just agreed with Joe Ellison when he called everyone who disagreed with you a racist. Don't pretend to get precious all of a sudden.

I'm going to explain this one more time for you. If you want to take issue with any of my words please quote them verbatim and point out exactly what you take issue with.

You will not be taken seriously while you make claims and fail to provide one single word to support them. To clarify a bit more. Your assertions are not true because you assert them. You need to provide evidence for all your claims as you so blatantly have failed to do yet again.

I challenge you again to do so.

[E.J.Armstrong]

You must have missed the OP.

It was the bunny rabbit who said that he wanted to eat the flesh of the Jews.

Do you have anything to say about that show?

I condemn all anti-semitic rhetoric wherever it arise.

I condemn all racist anti-Palestinian rhetoric wherever it arises.


Do you?

[JoeEllison]

You have just agreed with Joe Ellison when he called everyone who disagreed with you a racist.

I never said that... I'm losing my good feeling for you here... :(

[E.J.Armstrong]

The fact that atrocities were committed does not indicate that there is a systematic policy of dehumanizing going on in a military, let alone all of them.

Unless you think that some occurrences of suicide bombers by Palestinians is an indication that there is a systematic policy of terrorism in Palestine...?

If you belive that is the norm I would be grateful if you could name me ten instances where a military programme did not dehumanise the enemy in some form or other.

Some Palestinians are terrorists and their terrorism is systematically being directed by a number of sources. Some Israeli government actions are terrorist and they are being systematically directed centrally. Some actions by the IRA were terrorist and their terrorism was systematically directed by an 'army' council.

[gtc]

I'm going to explain this one more time for you. If you want to take issue with any of my words please quote them verbatim and point out exactly what you take issue with.

You will not be taken seriously while you make claims and fail to provide one single word to support them. To clarify a bit more. Your assertions are not true because you assert them. You need to provide evidence for all your claims as you so blatantly have failed to do yet again.

I challenge you again to do so.

Oh for goodness sake, read my post again. The hint is where I wrote you have just agreed with Joe Ellison. The post of yours I quoted was written two minutes after you made a post where you agreed with Joe.

Do you think I might have been talking about that one????

This is the second time you've shown you have no idea how to read a discussion board (hint: the last time was when you whined about my use of the multiquote function).

:deconfus:

[mrbaracuda]

Hey, let's not forget that this show is running Mondays and is (in)directly calling for the death of the Danish cartoonist who is "on the run".

Following are excerpts from a Hamas children's show, "The Pioneers of Tomorrow", which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on February 22, 2008:

Child host Saraa Barhoum: Amani, you've seen the kind of attack that the West launched against the Prophet Muhammad. What do you have to say on behalf of the Prophet Muhammad?

Amani, by phone: In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate, I say to those cowardly infidels...

Assud the Bunny: Those criminals...

Amani: Yes, those criminals... You mock our Prophet Muhammad, but look, my beloved Prophet Muhammad, how Allah responded to them: "Allah shall pay them back for their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their excess, blindly wandering on." My beloved Messenger of Allah, they mocked you with their drawings, because they do not know the mercy in your heart. My beloved Muhammad, if they had known the mercy in your heart, they would not have done this to you. Allah knows that we love you, and that we will redeem you with our souls, our blood, and our hearts.

[...]

Memri-TV Link. (http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1693.htm)

[gtc]

You probably shouldn't post the entire article as it breaches one of the rules about copyright.

That said, I notice that they are demanding Haifa. Which kind of puts paid to the notion that they will settle for a return to the 1967 borders.

[Anders W. Bonde]

Any society that endorses hate speach in anything targeted for children deserves nothing but contempt. No matter what the Palestenians have been subjected to, there is no excuse whatsoever - none, zero, zilch - for such vile abuse of children. Let the Palestinians boycott Danish goods - we should stop all aid to them, so they won't be able to afford our goods anyway. Any sympathy I have had for the Palestenian cause died with that despicable children's TV show.

[volatile]

Any society that endorses hate speach in anything targeted for children deserves nothing but contempt. No matter what the Palestenians have been subjected to, there is no excuse whatsoever - none, zero, zilch - for such vile abuse of children. Let the Palestinians boycott Danish goods - we should stop all aid to them, so they won't be able to afford our goods anyway. Any sympathy I have had for the Palestenian cause died with that despicable children's TV show.

What do you have to say about the teaching of the Book of Joshua to Israeli children, then?