A Solution to Yellow Bamboo

[Blue Monk]

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He was kicked from behind.


I was initially curious as to why anyone else would be rushing this guy during the test. It seemed to me that the subject should have done it alone.


Consider these stills. Since some frames are duplications I'm numbering them by unique frames. These are unique frames 7, 8 and 9.

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http://home.austin.rr.com/bluemonk/yellow_bamboo007.jpg
http://home.austin.rr.com/bluemonk/yellow_bamboo008.jpg
http://home.austin.rr.com/bluemonk/yellow_bamboo009.jpg
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In these first three frames here Mr. Joko Tri is in full form and headed toward the master. Note the individual behind him. He seems to be feeling the effects sooner than Mr. Tri and appears to fall out of frame. In fact he may be setting himself up to twist and perform a back-kick to Mr. Tri's head but one can't be sure.


Now consider the next three frames, unique frames 10, 11 and 12.

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http://home.austin.rr.com/bluemonk/yellow_bamboo010.jpg
http://home.austin.rr.com/bluemonk/yellow_bamboo011.jpg
http://home.austin.rr.com/bluemonk/yellow_bamboo012.jpg

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Now please notice that in frame 10 a blurry image has appeared behind Mr. Tri. Also note that Mr. Tri does not appear to be affected yet even though the man behind him showed a significant reaction several frames earlier.


The next frame (unique frame 11) is where I believe he is being kicked in the back of the head or perhaps zapped with a stun gun. Note again that he does not show any immediate reaction.


The frame immediately following the frame where he appears to be kicked it is quite clear he is going down now baby.


Below are two close-ups of frame 11. In one I've made a crude (very crude but you get the idea) outline of what looks like a kick to me. Someone reaching in with a stun gun seems more plausible to me due to Mr. Tri's twitching but he image just looks more like a kick to me.
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http://home.austin.rr.com/bluemonk/yellow_bamboo011b.jpg
http://home.austin.rr.com/bluemonk/yellow_bamboo011c.jpg
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This, of course, is only a theory as the movie was so (intentionally) unclear and I would welcome any comments.

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[MemeHacker]

Those 3 frames jumped out at me as odd also, really to blurry to tell anything for sure. I can sort of see the leg and foot (at least as a possibility) but I can't understand how Joko (and his friend and the reporter) would have not felt/noticed the kick.

[TheBoyPaj]

While that thing which appears to swing down on him is unidentified, there is also the matter of the very obvious feet of the people who are following him. When he is on the floor twitching you can see other people's legs all around him. Any one of those could have tripped him.

Absolute poppycock.

[Blue Monk]

I agree with both of you but still do not find Mr. Tri's account totally inconsistent with this theory.


I then felt a small push against me which made
me quite dizzy and knocked me to the ground.
The others behind me also were knocked to the
ground. But they were behind me not in front
of me. At no time nobody or nothing touched me


Well, 'something' pushed against him and it is odd that the others fell backwards while Mr Tri fell forward. His statement that nobody touched him should be read has he was 'unaware' of anyone touching him as even Mr. Tri does not have eyes in the back of his head.

To me it all smacks of classic misdirection. Mr. Tri sees the others fall backwards and apparantly to the ground and therefore assumes that they are no longer in the equation.

His description of being dizzy and his twitching behavior afterwards does seem very much like what happens when someone is zapped with a stun gun.

One thing seems clear though. There is some sort of activity directly behind him just as he goes down.

I suspect that in the long run this group will never submit to a test that only involves the 'master' and the test subject.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I'm getting a really strong JFK assassination video deja voodoo here.

~~ Paul

[Ed Baehr]

I must admit that I was not puzzled by the falling part. The quality of the video is so poor that almost anything including the foot to the head may have caused the drop. What puzzled me was the fact that he stayed on the ground. The stun gun is an effective way to produce this but proximity to the subject is an issue. On the other hand, a Taser is the perfect delivery system for the electrical charge that disrupts the electric impulses to the muscles from a distance of up to 21 feet. The Taser is used in law enforcement for controling violent people by non-lethal means. It even comes with a laser sighting system, and uses compressed air to fire the darts.
Just a thought,
Ed Baehr

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by Ed Baehr
I must admit that I was not puzzled by the falling part. The quality of the video is so poor that almost anything including the foot to the head may have caused the drop. What puzzled me was the fact that he stayed on the ground. The stun gun is an effective way to produce this but proximity to the subject is an issue. On the other hand, a Taser is the perfect delivery system for the electrical charge that disrupts the electric impulses to the muscles from a distance of up to 21 feet. The Taser is used in law enforcement for controling violent people by non-lethal means. It even comes with a laser sighting system, and uses compressed air to fire the darts.
Just a thought,
Ed Baehr

Do either a stun gun or a taser feel like "a small push"?

[Ed Baehr]

I know that they both immediately cause spasm and make muscles get stupid. I've never trained with one but I know people who have. I'll pick their brains and post probably tomorrow or the next day.
Sorry, that's the best I've got.
Ed Baehr

[Suezoled]

I saw proof of the Lochness Monster in that footage. It was grainy and hard to see but it certainly was Nessie. You'll just have to take their word about the other thing, too. :p

My question is, why is it proof of these things is always filmed so poorly?

[T'ai Chi]

To me it seems that if that was someone kicking the attacker from behind, shouldn't their foot be larger? It seems, and of course this is nearly impossible to tell from the poor video, that the foot is too small if it indeed kicked the attacker on the back, who is closer to the camara.

Although, the motion of this foot from behind and the attackers' bending over appear perfectly in unison.

[Kevin_Lowe]

You guys are focusing on the misdirection and looking for fancy answers. I don't think we need them.

Joko fell over of his own accord, because he was a YB stooge. That's my opinion.

[Ed Baehr]

For what it's worth, I'm advised by people who know that being shot with a taser feels like an electrical shock followed by a combination drug/alcohol disorientation.
I agree that the simplest explanation is that the faller may have yellow bamboo connections but if there are to be further "tests" something like this might be worthy of consideration.
Ed Baehr

[Doghouse Reilly]

I doubt that Joko was a stooge for Yellow Bamboo...if he was, couldn't they have done a better job than this?

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Ed Baehr
For what it's worth, I'm advised by people who know that being shot with a taser feels like an electrical shock followed by a combination drug/alcohol disorientation.
I agree that the simplest explanation is that the faller may have yellow bamboo connections but if there are to be further "tests" something like this might be worthy of consideration.
Ed Baehr
But afterwards, wouldn't you have some way of knowing you were hit with a taser? Doesn't it leave any marks?

[T'ai Chi]

By the principle of charity, I will give anyone the benefit of the doubt and believe everyone involved is entirely honest, until the facts say otherwise, if necessary.

It certainly appears that Joko could have been contacted from behind by something (a foot for example), because Joko bends over right when the thing from behind appears to contact him. Of course, from the poor video quality it is near impossible to determine anything for certain, and those apparently related actions could simply be coincidence: Joki bending over, and someones' foot flailing in the background because they are being pushed backwards, both at the same time.

I think a lot of confusion could have been avoided by doing the video in the daytime.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
By the principle of charity, I will give anyone the benefit of the doubt and believe everyone involved is entirely honest, until the facts say otherwise, if necessary.

You can't give people the benefit of the doubt when they claim to do something that violates the laws of physics. At the most, all we can do is say that nothing has been proven one way or the other. Benefit of the doubt is not justified. The default position is that it is just not possible.

The fact that they claim to be able to knock people over using paranormal means indicates that they are a bunch of liars.

[alfaniner]

Of course, we know that he was really knocked over by a paranormal hat shape. You only saw the poor internet copy of the video.

(I am embarassed (or maybe pleased) to say just how long it took to find that d*#* picture...)

[reprise]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
By the principle of charity, I will give anyone the benefit of the doubt and believe everyone involved is entirely honest, until the facts say otherwise, if necessary.

It certainly appears that Joko could have been contacted from behind by something (a foot for example), because Joko bends over right when the thing from behind appears to contact him. Of course, from the poor video quality it is near impossible to determine anything for certain, and those apparently related actions could simply be coincidence: Joki bending over, and someones' foot flailing in the background because they are being pushed backwards, both at the same time.

I think a lot of confusion could have been avoided by doing the video in the daytime.

I think a lot of confusion could have been avoided by JREF having more than one representative at the demo/test/whatever it's now being called and by making adequate recording of the event by both sides (and preferably by an independent party as well) part of the protocol.

I'm astonished that provisions for recording this event were not clearly outlined in the protocol.

One reason that I still half expect Randi to say "gotcha" is because the circumstances under which it took place are so like the kind of "evidence" which Randi and JREF use to point out the flaws in the protocols used by woo-woos everywhere. I can't think of any conceivable reason why the JREF would have agreed to be represented by a single person in the first place, let alone one about whom nobody knew anything. You might send such a person on a reconnaisance mission ("can someone go take a look at these people and come back and tell us your thoughts"), but you sure as heck don't engage them as your sole representative in a situation which gives rise to legal liability.

If - and in my mind it's still a HUGE if - JREF did indeed agree to such a sloppy protocol for an actual preliminary test then JREF's credibility within the skeptical community should rightly suffer significant damage. That YB may well be hoaxers and frauds doesn't diminish one bit the loss of credibility JREF fully deserves if it actually helped design or agreed to something which was so flawed and failed to ensure the very controls we so self-righteously demand that others employ.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Pyrrho

You can't give people the benefit of the doubt when they claim to do something that violates the laws of physics.


I partially disagree. They could be completely honest, just mistaken in their understanding of what is going on, for example.


The fact that they claim to be able to knock people over using paranormal means indicates that they are a bunch of liars.

There is always the possibility that they have stumbled on to something new and never before seen. Highly improbably based on what we know about the world, but who knows.

[MRC_Hans]

Mmm, I notice he swings that bamboo stick high over his head (against advice). If it's a fresh bamboo, it will be conductive, so an overhead wire could easily be rigged to give him a taser-like electric shock as he swings it and touches the wire. His account of the incident is not characteristic of electric shock, but it does not rule it out, either.

About this YB trick in general: I'm a bit puzzled; aren't they claiming that the sound-waves in the scream somehow stuns the "attacker"? Sound is known to have various physiological effects already, even if they should be right and a new one is thus discovered, what exactly is supernatural about it???

On the comments about the unsafe protocol: Yes, I agree; if JR actually agreed to consider this arrangement a preliminary (even if the protocol was violated), I can only conclude that he is becoming reckless.

Hans

[ImpyTimpy]

Slow down, put the torch down, no need to go burning houses just yet :) :p

This is nothing but a preliminary test, as far as I understand, it's just something to see whether the claimant can do what he claims to do. It's not actually designed to weed out fraud, it's more designed to weed out deluded woo-woos. Passing the preliminary doesn't mean anything, it just means we can have some fun figuring out how they did it. The actual test is where full controls are implemented in order to remove any possibility of cheating. If cheating is obvious during the preliminary testing phase, there's no need to proceed to the proper test... If no cheating is apparent, that's when things get interesting and the full test is applied.

That's how I understand it.

Originally posted by reprise


I think a lot of confusion could have been avoided by JREF having more than one representative at the demo/test/whatever it's now being called and by making adequate recording of the event by both sides (and preferably by an independent party as well) part of the protocol.

I'm astonished that provisions for recording this event were not clearly outlined in the protocol.

One reason that I still half expect Randi to say "gotcha" is because the circumstances under which it took place are so like the kind of "evidence" which Randi and JREF use to point out the flaws in the protocols used by woo-woos everywhere. I can't think of any conceivable reason why the JREF would have agreed to be represented by a single person in the first place, let alone one about whom nobody knew anything. You might send such a person on a reconnaisance mission ("can someone go take a look at these people and come back and tell us your thoughts"), but you sure as heck don't engage them as your sole representative in a situation which gives rise to legal liability.

If - and in my mind it's still a HUGE if - JREF did indeed agree to such a sloppy protocol for an actual preliminary test then JREF's credibility within the skeptical community should rightly suffer significant damage. That YB may well be hoaxers and frauds doesn't diminish one bit the loss of credibility JREF fully deserves if it actually helped design or agreed to something which was so flawed and failed to ensure the very controls we so self-righteously demand that others employ.

[ImpyTimpy]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Mmm, I notice he swings that bamboo stick high over his head (against advice). If it's a fresh bamboo, it will be conductive, so an overhead wire could easily be rigged to give him a taser-like electric shock as he swings it and touches the wire. His account of the incident is not characteristic of electric shock, but it does not rule it out, either.

That's my thinking as well. Notice he falls over when the bamboo touches the "ground".


About this YB trick in general: I'm a bit puzzled; aren't they claiming that the sound-waves in the scream somehow stuns the "attacker"? Sound is known to have various physiological effects already, even if they should be right and a new one is thus discovered, what exactly is supernatural about it???

I don't think they're claiming it is sound alone but even that would be just weird... I mean, come on, knocking someone out just by humming at them? :p


On the comments about the unsafe protocol: Yes, I agree; if JR actually agreed to consider this arrangement a preliminary (even if the protocol was violated), I can only conclude that he is becoming reckless.

Hans
I don't understand why people are getting upset about this... It's not the actual test, it's just a preliminary look and see... There's no need for elaborate controls in the preliminary test, that comes during the actual challenge. As far as I know the preliminary test is only meant to show that the claimant can do what he or she claims to do.

[MRC_Hans]

The upsetting thing is that these kooks are now all over the internet claiming they as good as won the prize. The need to make such lies, of course, exposes them in itself, but believers will not see it that way.

I'll bet you 100:1 that they will now claim to have been proven right and will evade proceeding to the real test infinitely.


Hans

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Blue Monk

Someone reaching in with a stun gun seems more plausible to me due to Mr. Tri's twitching but he image just looks more like a kick to me.


Blue Monk, I definitely feel that the hypothesis of the person to Tri's back and left kicked Tri with his right foot to the back, which caused Tri to fall foward, and the kicker fell backwards, is very plausible.

I think I can explain the twitching very simply (if it is not 'placebo', etc.): if someone is kicked very hard, especially between the shoulder blades or on the back anywhere, I would imagine muscle spasms/muscle twitchings are very common.

[Moose]

I don't think that's a leg in those photos. Admittedly, it sort of looks like one in shot 12, but the same grey object appears in front of him in shots 7, 8, and 9, and past him (to his left) in shots 10, and 11.

It becomes more apparent if you use the bright white object as a "fixed" reference point. The grey object does not move in relation to the white object, only Mr Tri is moving.

Now, I don't know what the white or grey object(s) is(are). I cannot make it(them) out.

Was he nailed with a taser? Maybe.

This online taser supplier (http://www.stungunsandtasers.com/airtaserinfo.htm) makes the following claim about the effects of a taser hit.

A person hit with an AIR TASER will feel dazed for several minutes. The pulsating electrical output causes involuntary muscle contractions and a resulting sense of vertigo. It can momentarily stun or render an attacker unconscious.

The electrical current will "jump" up to two inches as long as both probes are attached to clothing or skin. At most, only the 3/8-inch needlepoint will penetrate the skin. They have less energy than a spring propelled BB.

I'm not sure I'm willing to call this an (ahem) smoking gun, but it seems to fit the visual record well enough to be considered a candidate explanation.

[Pyrrho]

He fell down because he knew he was expected to fall down, and acted accordingly. The video isn't worth a damn. If that's what passes for a serious demonstration of a genuine special power, then the kooks at Yellow Bamboo are far more pathetic than I thought. That video is as evidentiary of special powers as my kids' videos are evidentiary of real light sabers. Crap, I'll even put together my own video this weekend to prove that my kids have the same special powers as the Yellow Bamboo people.

Look for the link Saturday night.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Guys, the "they zapped him" theory just doesn't hold water.

If Joko was on the level, and they zapped him with something, he would have reported a lot more than a gentle push in the back. No one, ever, mistook a strong electric shock for a gentle push.

The fact that Joko's testimony does not explain the rolling around and twitching on the video is a dead giveaway that something is deeply fishy.

Here's a question: Has anyone clapped eyes on the person who identified themselves as Joko to Randi, and who identified themselves as Joko on the internet? (Hmm... the fact that Joko has not resurfaced is also interesting).

If not, how do we know that the person in the video is the person who signed Randi's form, or the person who made the internet statement?

"Joko" could easily be Alvin, and the guy in the video could just be a random YB stooge. It fits with Alvin being in possession of the Joko contract.

[CERDIP]

I think some people here have been led astray by a bit of mis-direction.

No, I don't refer to something in the video or in the account of the demonstration. I refer to the press release, and the *existence* of the account of the demonstration.

If you read up on Randi's reports of other claimants and the preliminary testing (or preliminary demonstrations, however you want to call it), he usually lets the claimant either make a series of statements that box the claimant into a particular set of circumstances (ie. Sylvia Brown) or lets them perform an initial demonstration under their own preferred conditions (ie. the dowser guy that lives near the JREF offices).

In any event, once he sees how they feel comfortable performing, at later time he devises a test that varies as little as possible with the original demonstration, to prevent later claims of "but the framenstranz interfered with the karma!". Call this "heads".

Of course, like any scientific line of inquiry, we need a falsifiable theory, and that is the other side of the coin. We need to see the demonstration in circumstances that will permit controls that can be introduced to prevent fraud, misdirection, or accidental misinterpretation of data. Call this side "tails".

I think that the heads side of the coin is covered (or can be), based upon the video and the report from the demonstration participant.

The next step is for Randi to cover the tails, by devising the controls. This depends on having a solid theory of what is probably taking place (unless we accept the paranormal explanation). This looks to be more problematic, based upon the available data, but not impossible. The confidence needs to be high.

What I think will probably happen is that when a strong "theory of the phenomon" surfaces at JREF, a test with controls will be proposed (the "Protocol") and it will eventually be rejected or ignored by the Yellow Bamboo people.

Of course, Yellow Bamboo's claim to have already won the Million Dollar claim certainly throws a million monkeys at the keyboard.

If there isn't already, there should be a clause in the JREF agreement that voids the challenge for a period of time for that claimant if they make such premature claims or public statements.

Perhaps a press release from JREF is in order, one that denies the Yellow Bamboo claim of having won the million dollars, and that also fleshes out the remainder of the challenge procedure that is yet to be followed.

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

If we are going to believe in this we might as well believe in bunnies with pancakes on their heads.

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

OMG!!!!!!!!!! They're real!

http://www.student.smsu.edu/s/san232s/hardfunnypics/rabbitpancake.jpg

Now to be serious instead of speculating over a crappy video lets wait until they are hopefully tested under proper conditions to see what happens.

[uneasy]

Originally posted by traveller
Now to be serious instead of speculating over a crappy video lets wait until they are hopefully tested under proper conditions to see what happens. Good point. I'm very eager to find out what is going on, but we won't know until more info is available.

But I have to say something about that bunny picture. On closer examination, you can clearly see the hands of a leprechaun hiding behind the bunny and holding the pancakes in place! Fakery! Pure fakery!

[fsol]

Oolong! R.I.P.

[alfaniner]

Originally posted by uneasy
...
But I have to say something about that bunny picture. On closer examination, you can clearly see the hands of a leprechaun hiding behind the bunny and holding the pancakes in place! Fakery! Pure fakery!

...or maybe it's just a PARANORMAL HAT!!!

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Holy ****! When you brighten an area of this frame you can clearly see that pancake bunny is behind this. Now that we have a mundane explanation for yellow bamboo where is the explanation for pancake bunny?

[alfaniner]

It must be a clue! Where was Foodbunny during this test?!

[Two Possibilities]

Well I have watched the video and have not used all the high tech items that you guys have.

A couple of thoughts though:

1) Joko was running when he was told to walk. It seems to me that it would be a little hard to someone to time a kick to the back of his head/shoulder and would that not make himalmost fall face first rather then the way he went down.

2) It is possible that Joko was in cohouts with YB but I have to take Randi's word that he is a good judge of character although he is not necessarily infallible. I think a more likely answer would be that he was "playing to the crowd" Why did he run instead of just doing what Randi asked...walk up and tap him? So it is possible that something happened and he was embarrassed and was just playing to the crowd.

3) I think that we must look at what we do know. Joko ran at him swinging a large bamboo stick in the air. In looking at the video the bamboo stick seemed to be drawn to the ground....sort of top heavy like. This seemed odd. As well, it seemed to me that the ground looked wet. It was hard to tell by the ppor quality of the video.

When I look at the way he went down, that tips me off to what might have happened. He went down all all fours. Then he rolled over onto his back. It looked like he was unconscious...and then his body twitched.

I really dont know what happened but my best guess would be that he was hit a few times with voltage. The first hit brought him too his knees perhaps making him feeling dizzy. The second zap would make him roll over and brought on unconsciousness. The third zap would make his unconscious body twitch.

There has been talk of a tazer and it is a possibility but I think other methods for conducting electricity should be looked at.

[Houngan]

As always, I believe the simplest answer is the best. He was tapped by a taser.

One of the little-known effects of a taser is that in %90 of the uses, the subject has no memory of being tased. My money is on somebody tapping him on the back of the neck with a taser, which would be a good location for a sub-second contact to take the legs out from under somebody.

From the far-out side:
1. there's always the green lasers that the corrections people use to disorient prisoners, but that would be obvious to the victim.

2. Beanbag gun. The framerate of the video was far too slow to catch a beanbag being bounced off the back of his head.

3. Good ol' sap. But, would leave a mark.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

H.

[AdaoJr]

In fact I also saw the kick pretty clearly. One can see the bend knee and the final blow. The foot size is rigth given the picture angle and the large black pants.

And I still think a kick is a less facier explanation than a stun gun no mather how cheap and easy to buy these may be. For three reasons:
1 - a strong kick in the back of the neck does feel exactly that way with the twitching and everything, as i believe any one here that had any experience with martial arts can testify (maybe T´ai Chi??).
2 - a high kick fits with the overall mindset of the tricks performed in martial arts environments.
3 - as i´ve told before: I´ve already seen exactly this trick on brazillian martial arts gyms!

I practiced Hapkido for quite a while and I remember a senior student (Fabian, a black belt) once made a practical joke out of it (to impress the white belts):
While the master was out, just after showing off with some somersaults and high kicks, he claimed exactly the same thing (he would use his mind to take a skeptical newcomer to the ground)... and the modus operandi was the same:
Some guys ran together with the one that was testing him jumped backwards (in fact Cristiano, the guy that actually kicked was one of the best at high kicks in the gym), and while pretending to fall back kicked the guy in the back to the ground...

The guy that felt knew he was kicked, but a friend of him in the audience lost the exact point where this happened and could not tell him who did it.

Of course, It was joke and was not taken seriously. Besides they didn´t kick in the head... and it was made in the clear light of an afternoon. So, nobody did got hurt... or actually believed it was supernatural at all.

But still the YB has claimed its abbilities for a while an they may think a strong kick in the head at the dim light of the night would be more plausible... and since there where no gadget included more difficult to be uncovered.

One more thing: it´s not a difficult procedure to follow. I´ve seen it performed by people with just a few years of training, for a live audience on a gym in my neighbourhood!

I believe many here think it´s not probable (and made fun of the explanation) because a high kick seens really hard to perform. As anyone that attend to a weekend taekwondo demonstration knows, it is not that hard.

As Tai Chi pointed: If you are used to record martial arts demonstrations you can see that the arm and body movements the guy just behind Joko make just after the kick frames match exactly what you would expect he to do just before a high kick. I never thought there would be any doubt about it.

I´m really puzzled with Randi conclusion. As I´ve seen him repeat many times: dont look for fancy gadgets as a first hypothesis. Whats more, if you think of it , the high kick trick is a obvious application of misdirection.

In fact, now that i´ve seen the same trick on the opposite side of the world (I live in Brazil) I´m begining to think how old this tricks may be. It may even be a martial arts tradition (in the sense of other traditional tricks made by "holymen" and martial artists).

Well if the kick hypothesys is right, there will be no other test of the YB crew... But let´s wait and see what happens.