One Or Two Churches In The New Testament?

[Terral]

Greetings to All:

This thread is dedicated to discussing the differences between the Kingdom “Bride” Church (Matthew 16:16-19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2016:16-20,%2018:17-18;&version=49;)) of Prophecy AND Paul’s Grace Body (Eph. 5:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%205:30,%201Cor%2012:27;&version=49;)) Mystery Church (Eph. 5:32). My interpretations are based upon the Scriptural truth that Peter, John and James are heads of the Jewish Dominant Kingdom ‘Bride’ (John 3:29 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jn%203:29,%20Mark%202:19;&version=49;)) and Paul is the steward over the members of the Gentile Dominant ‘Body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%204:12,%20Col%201:24-27;&version=49;)) under the ‘Dispensation of God’s Grace.’ Ephesians 3:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%203:1-4,%20Col%201:24-27;&version=49;). Christ is talking about and speaking to Church #1 (early 'and' late rains bride = James 5:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%205:7;&version=49;)) and the Apostle Paul is talking about and speaking to Church #2 in the world today as we speak. This is the second thread in a series that begins with an understanding of the Two Gospels of the New Testament here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=106493):

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This is NOT our church for today and nobody has become a Kingdom Disciple under the ‘Gospel of the Kingdom’ for almost 2000 Years. This church will become revived again under Elijah coming to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2017:10-11,%20Acts%203:19-26,%2015:16-18;&version=49;)).
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I. Kingdom Bride Prophecy Church. (Matthew 16:16-19, Matthew 18:17-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2018:17-18;&version=49;)).

1. Gathered through the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%204:23;&version=49;), Matthew 9:35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%209:35;&version=49;), Acts 8:12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208:12-17;&version=49;)).
2. Lord seen betrothing the ‘Bride’ by the OT prophets. Hosea 2:19-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea%202:19-20;&version=49;), John 3:29.
3. Church based in Jerusalem. Acts 8:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208:1-2;&version=49;), Acts 11:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2011:20-26;&version=49;), Acts 15:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2015:1-5;&version=49;).
4. Destined to become a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ex%2019:4-6;&version=49;)) ‘holy nation,’ and ‘chosen race.’ 1Peter 2:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Peter%202:9-11;&version=49;).
5. Kingdom on earth “as it is” in heaven. Matthew 6:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%206:10;&version=49;).
6. Continue under Mosaic Law, until heaven and earth passes away. Matthew 5:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%205:17-19;&version=49;), James 2:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:10;&version=49;).
7. Kingdom Disciples are justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:20-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202:20-24;&version=49;).
8. Kingdom Church started with John the Baptist. Mark 1:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%201:4-5,%20Luke%201:76-78;&version=49;), Matthew 3:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%203:1-6;&version=49;), Acts 1:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%201:5;&version=49;), Acts 19:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:1-6;&version=49;).
9. Disciples received three baptisms (Father, Son and Holy Spirit; Matthew 28:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2028:19;&version=49;)). Acts 8:12-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%208:12-17;&version=49;), Acts 19:1-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2019:1-6;&version=49;).
10. Members of the bride DO NOT have eternal security, but must ‘endure to the end’ (Matt. 24:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2024:13-14;&version=49;)).
11. Kingdom disciples must believe AND be baptized in water. Mark 16:15-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:15-16;&version=49;).
12. This Kingdom church is addressed by Christ on earth, Peter, John and James (“twelve tribes dispersed abroad” = James 1:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%201:1;&version=49;)).

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This is our Mystery Church of today described only in the Pauline Epistles. We shall be caught up to the Lord (1Thessalonians 4:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Thes%204:13-17;&version=49;)), when the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” (1Thessalonians 5:1-2) comes (2Thessalonians 2:2) (diagram (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/67.jpg)).
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II. Grace Body Mystery Church. Ephesians 5:32 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%205:30-32;&version=49;), Colossians 1:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=col%201:24-27;&version=49;).

1. Gathered through obedience to Paul’s ‘Word of the Cross’ (1Corinthians 1:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor%201:17-21;&version=49;)) gospel. 1Corinthians 15:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor%2015:1-4,%20Rom%203:24,%20Eph%201:7;&version=49;).
2. Our Mystery Church (Ephesians 5:32) was not seen by the OT Prophets. Ephesians 3:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%203:1-6,%205:32;&version=49;), Ephesians 3:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%203:8-11;&version=49;).
3. Grace Churches are all around the known world. Romans 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%201:8;&version=49;).
4. Destined to judge the world and the angels. 1Corinthians 6:2-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor%206:2-3;&version=49;).
5. Our citizenship is in heaven. Philippians 3:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Phil%203:20;&version=49;).
6. We are under grace and not under law. Romans 6:14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%206:14;&version=49;), Col. 2:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Col%202:16-17;&version=49;), Gal. 3:23-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gal%203:23-28;&version=49;).
7. Our Church is justified by faith apart from works. Romans 4:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%204:4-6,%20Eph%202:8-10;&version=49;).
8. The Mystery Church started with Paul (first = 1Tim 1:15-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Tim%201:15-16,%20Gal%201:15-17;&version=49;)) on the road to Damascus. Acts 9:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209:15-16;&version=49;).
9. Brethren receive only ‘one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%204:5,%201Cor%2012:13-14,%20Gal%203:27;&version=49;)) by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14, 4:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%201:13-14,%204:30;&version=49;)) Himself. 1Corinthians 12:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor%2012:12-14;&version=49;).
10. Members of the body have eternal security “IN” Christ Jesus. Ephesians 4:30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%204:30;&version=49;), Colossians 3:1-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Col%203:1-4;&version=49;)
11. The brethren are saved by believing the gospel without adding works. Romans 1:16-17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%201:16-17,%2010:1-4;&version=49;), 1Corinthians 1:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor%201:17-21;&version=49;), Eph. 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%202:8-10,%20Rom%204:4-6;&version=49;).
12. This Mystery church addressed by the Apostle Paul ONLY in Scripture. 1Corinthians 14:37-38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor%2014:34-38;&version=49;).
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Those blinded (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Cor%204:3-4,%202Peter%203:14-16;&version=49;) by Denominationalism (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Thes%202:7-12;&version=49;) are willing to merge Kingdom Doctrine (for Church #1) and Grace Doctrine (for Church #2) for these “Two New Testament Churches” together into an abomination that God sent to NOBODY. Do you see two different (bride AND body) churches in the New Testament or just one? Good luck in the debate,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

[triadboy]

I don't think it's so black and white. The 'churches' you speak of morphed (with others) into what we have today over thousands of years ....and what we have today is still morphing.

In Christ Jesus we morph,

Triadboy

[~enigma~]

Greetings to All:

Religious woo snipped

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

And what exactly is your point? Are you trying to convince us that the new testament was written and redacted by someone suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder?

[Bikewer]

In Lost Christianities, Mr. Ehrman points out that there were a wide variety of early Christian sects, with widely disparate beliefs. The process whereby these many diverse sects were whittled down to some semblance of orthodoxy took almost 400 years.

[Terral]

Hi Enigma:

And what exactly is your point? Are you trying to convince us that the new testament was written and redacted by someone suffering from Multiple Personality Disorder?


The point is that you have ‘Two Gospels’ preached for the gathering of the Prophetic Kingdom ‘Bride’ (Church #1), during Christ’s earthly ministry ‘and’ the Mystery “Body of Christ” (Church #2) only revealed ‘after’ God raised Him from the dead. The precepts teaching Kingdom and Grace Doctrine for the ‘Two Churches’ appear in twelve ‘directly opposing’ listings, because TWO SETS of doctrinal precepts exist in your New Testament. I have no defending arguments to present, because nobody here apparently has the capacity to simply “quote >>” anything WRONG in the Opening Post to THEN offer your supported arguments for something else.

Do you have a ‘One Church’ case to present using Scripture? No? That is the very reason we have nothing to even debate. Every word of the Opening Post remains standing until someone here can make a case for something else using Scripture. I see Gravy numbers himself with the “De Facto Atheists” here (http://forums.randi.org/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=60792), but where does Enigma fit in with the 80 percent Atheist JREF population? :0) (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/YoSoFunny.gif)

If the one-eyed man is king in the land of the blind, then this 911Truther is the cotton picking king of the universe (http://www.mylittlepockets.com/clothing/images/king%20of%20universe2.jpg).

GL,

Terral

[Darth Rotor]

Hi Enigma:
The point is that you have ‘Two Gospels’ preached for the gathering of the Prophetic Kingdom ‘Bride’ (Church #1), during Christ’s earthly ministry ‘and’ the Mystery “Body of Christ” (Church #2) only revealed ‘after’ God raised Him from the dead. The precepts teaching Kingdom and Grace Doctrine for the ‘Two Churches’ appear in twelve ‘directly opposing’ listings, because TWO SETS of doctrinal precepts exist in your New Testament. I have no defending arguments to present, because nobody here apparently has the capacity to simply “quote >>” anything WRONG in the Opening Post to THEN offer your supported arguments for something else.

Do you have a ‘One Church’ case to present using Scripture? No? That is the very reason we have nothing to even debate. Every word of the Opening Post remains standing until someone here can make a case for something else using Scripture. I see Gravy numbers himself with the “De Facto Atheists” here (http://forums.randi.org/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=60792), but where does Enigma fit in with the 80 percent Atheist JREF population? :0) (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/YoSoFunny.gif)

If the one-eyed man is king in the land of the blind, then this 911Truther is the cotton picking king of the universe (http://www.mylittlepockets.com/clothing/images/king%20of%20universe2.jpg).

GL,

Terral
Another immortal fool hanged by the neck, by Sola Scriptura's rope.

Triadboy offered you an outstanding answer. Merely repeating your assertion in the OP hardly looks like a conversation.

As one of the non-80%, your doctrinally based question ignores Ehrman's work, which is worth a read. Paul's doctrinal writings were, among other things, encouragement to standardize the Faith. He didn't do quite the job Constantine did, who could rely on Paul's work, and the work of others so inspired. Even Constantine's legacy fell prey to human motivations, disagreements, and more. (Too bad Jesus didn't keep a diary, eh?)

The Church is what it is, which is fractured, in the here and now.

What does it matter? What is the "so what" of your OP? Do you think some utopian realm would arise if all of the churches unified into One Church? Ever hear of a guy named Marx? He dabbled in Utopian theory as well.

DR

[~enigma~]

Stupidity again snipped.
Once again, the question asked is what is your point? Answer the question asked and please refrain from your stupid reference to 9/11 unless you are posting in the conspiracy forum. I understand why you can never answer a direct question in the CT forum but why do you pull the same woo crap here? Is the point in the post that you don't have a point?

[Terral]

Hi Darth and Enigma:

Another immortal fool hanged by the neck, by Sola Scriptura's rope.

Triadboy offered you an outstanding answer. Merely repeating your assertion in the OP hardly looks like a conversation . . .
Once again, the question asked is what is your point? Answer the question asked and please refrain from your stupid reference to 9/11 unless you are posting in the conspiracy forum. I understand why you can never answer a direct question in the CT forum but why do you pull the same woo crap here? Is the point in the post that you don't have a point?


http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/YoSoFunny.gif

All of that sounds very funny coming from members so willing to ‘talk, talk, talk’ about everything under the sun besides the OP “Two Churches” Topic.

GL,

Terral

[~enigma~]

Hi Darth and Enigma:





http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/YoSoFunny.gif

All of that sounds very funny coming from members so willing to ‘talk, talk, talk’ about everything under the sun besides the OP “Two Churches” Topic.

GL,

Terral
Once again you didn't answer the question. One more chance before you go on ignore. What is the point of your OP?

[Darth Rotor]

Hi Darth and Enigma:





http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/YoSoFunny.gif

All of that sounds very funny coming from members so willing to ‘talk, talk, talk’ about everything under the sun besides the OP “Two Churches” Topic.

GL,

Terral
Hi

Time does not freeze in place. Over the last two thousand years, whatever the originators tried to establish has been adapted to, changed, and transformed by any number of well meaning, and some not so well meaning, agents.

Are you trying to measure yourself for a Kilt? We both ask the "So What" of your OP.
This thread is dedicated to discussing the differences between the Kingdom “Bride” Church (Matthew 16:16-19) of Prophecy AND Paul’s Grace Body (Eph. 5:30) Mystery Church (Eph. 5:32). My interpretations are based upon the Scriptural truth that Peter, John and James are heads of the Jewish Dominant Kingdom ‘Bride’ (John 3:29) and Paul is the steward over the members of the Gentile Dominant ‘Body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) under the ‘Dispensation of God’s Grace.’ Ephesians 3:2. Christ is talking about and speaking to Church #1 (early 'and' late rains bride = James 5:7) and the Apostle Paul is talking about and speaking to Church #2 in the world today as we speak. This is the second thread in a series that begins with an understanding of the Two Gospels of the New Testament here:

Which True Church are you a member of?

Church number 1? Peter's

Church number 2? Paul's

I'll take Church number 3: something that exists today, in the here and now. The best laid plans of mice and men oft gang aglee.

As for Elijah, he tossed the ring into Mount Doom, and has retired to the Undying Lands. Nice place, if this picture is to be believed.

*cue up Styx*

Come sail away
Come sail away
Come sail away with me . . .



DR

[Kopji]

The two church 'debate' is interesting but offers a deceptively incomplete set of choices.

In addition to the two 'churches'...

Muslims tend to reject Paul as an apostle, and instead look to Muhammad in that role. I think that if you are going to discuss which 'church version' is correct, you cannot exclude the Islamic conclusion that rejects the Pauline writings. If you do, why? What is compelling about accepting Paul's testimony over Muhammad?

[Hokulele]

There is no One ChurchTM in any religion, much less Christianity. If you want to go the NT fracturing method, it is just as plausible to argue for 3 churches, one before the crucifixion, one after, and one after the second coming. (Acts 1:4-7, Jude, Rev. 3:3).

[Radrook]

All this fracturing of Christ's church into three seemingly incompatible parts is based on a misunderstanding of scripture. If there is confusion in regard to this-God isn't the source. Most likely the source is the entity in that avatar.

Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

[joobz]

All this fracturing of Christ's church into three seemingly incompatible parts is based on a misunderstanding of scripture. If there is confusion in regard to this-God isn't the source. Most likely the source is the entity in that avatar.

Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Unfortunately, that quote comes from the source which can be missunderstood. Therefore, there's no reason to assume you've understood it.

"Every word of the bible is true. And we know that every word of the bible is true, because the Bible tells us that every word is true."-Steven Colbert

[Kopji]

And for your further enjoyment:

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:9


So was that gospel #1 or #2 ?

[Complexity]

Please stop wasting bits.

[Terral]

Hi Enigma:

Once again you didn't answer the question. One more chance before you go on ignore. What is the point of your OP?


Every atheist here should put me on ignore. I am here to defend the OP “Two Churches” Hypothesis against everyone with ‘supported’ opposing interpretations ‘and’ perhaps to answer questions for those advocating my position. Since Enigma is a constant debating adversary on all of these topics, then a good idea would be to ask questions from registered members on ‘your’ side of these discussions. The ‘point’ of the OP is self-explanatory. We are here to debate the differences between the “Two Churches” of the New Testament, according to the ‘two’ listings of doctrinal components outlined accordingly. Our problem manifesting itself here is ‘twofold,’ in that members have no desire to address one thing in the Opening Post ‘and’ they appear to have very little in the way of ability to cite any verse of Scripture to offer their own ‘rightly divided’ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2tim%202:15,%203:16-17;&version=50;) Bible commentary. My defending arguments are structured around the substance of your rebuttals and counterproposals to the “Two Churches” OP proposal, but like with the 911Truth topics, all I see from here is a lot of whining and complaining . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

[Terral]

Hi Darth:

Time does not freeze in place. Over the last two thousand years, whatever the originators tried to establish has been adapted to, changed, and transformed by any number of well meaning, and some not so well meaning, agents.


In other words, in ‘your’ universe then God is incapable of even delivering His mail (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2tim%202:15,%203:16-17;&version=49;).

Are you trying to measure yourself for a Kilt? We both ask the "So What" of your OP.


There are plenty of topics in this Religion Forum for Darth to select a subject that he ‘does’ know something about.

Which True Church are you a member of?

Church number 1? Peter's

Church number 2? Paul's


I am a member of Paul’s “Body of Christ” Church #2 saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works (Eph. 2:8-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%202:8-10;&version=49;)) and justified the very same way (Rom. 4:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom%204:4-6;&version=49;)). Peter’s “Gospel of the Kingdom” and his “Kingdom Bride” (church #1) have absolutely nothing to do with me.

I'll take Church number 3: something that exists today, in the here and now. The best laid plans of mice and men oft gang aglee.


Church #2 has a part in the “Mystery of Christ” (Eph 3:4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%203:1-4,%20Col%201:24-27;&version=49;), Col. 4:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Col%204:1-3;&version=49;)) where ‘we’ are baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gal%203:23-28;&version=49;)) to be crucified with Christ (Gal. 2:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gal%202:20;&version=49;)), so God could ‘then’ raise believers up “with Him” to seat us “IN the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus.” Ephesians 2:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%202:4-7;&version=49;) (diagram (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/19a.jpg)). A ‘third’ dispensation (left side of the equation (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/71c.jpg) = 666 'man' (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2013:18;&version=49;)) was also created under the “Mystery of Iniquity” (2Thes 2:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Thes%202:7-12;&version=49;)) and MANY here belong to ‘that’ dispensation (http://www.mf.no/bibelprog/vines?word=%AFt0000766), even though they ‘profess’ to be atheists and just about everything under the sun (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ecc%201:9-11;&version=49;). Therefore, you have a very good chance of really belonging to church #3, which will become very apparent at the time of Judgment (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2020:11-15,%2021:8;&version=49;).

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

[boloboffin]

Peter’s “Gospel of the Kingdom” and his “Kingdom Bride” (church #1) have absolutely nothing to do with me.

You say that with the distinct air of pride. Isn't that a God-created church in your belief structure? Isn't that going to be responsible for people going to God's heaven?

Or does this division extend to two heavens for Jews and Gentiles, separate but equal?

[Terral]

Hi Kopji:

The two church 'debate' is interesting but offers a deceptively incomplete set of choices.


Please forgive, but the same can be said for your post above . . .

In addition to the two 'churches'...

Muslims tend to reject Paul as an apostle, and instead look to Muhammad in that role.


What Muslims think has no bearing upon anything presented in the OP of this thread.

I think that if you are going to discuss which 'church version' is correct, you cannot exclude the Islamic conclusion that rejects the Pauline writings.


Please find yourself a nice Muslim and have yourselves a nice discussion about whatever seems appropriate . . .

If you do, why? What is compelling about accepting Paul's testimony over Muhammad?


Paul is the “Apostle of Gentiles” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%2011:13,%20Eph%203:1-3,%20Col%201:24-27;&version=49;) raised up by God to become the “chosen instrument of Mine.” Acts 9:15-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209:15-16,%201Tim%201:15-16,%201Cor%204:15;&version=49;). God gave Paul the “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Eph. 3:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%203:1-4,%20Col%201:24-27;&version=49;)) for every Jew and Gentile called by ‘our gospel’ (2Thes 2:13-14 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Thes%202:13-14;&version=49;)) ‘and’ being conformed to the image of His Son. Romans 8:28-30 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom%208:28-30;&version=49;). Paul received the ‘visions and revelations of the Lord’ (2Cor. 12:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Cor%2012:1;&version=49;)) having nothing to do with Muhammad, Muslims, the man on the moon or anyone else.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

[Terral]

Hi Bolo:

You say that with the distinct air of pride. Isn't that a God-created church in your belief structure? Isn't that going to be responsible for people going to God's heaven?

Or does this division extend to two heavens for Jews and Gentiles, separate but equal?


Pride has nothing to do with anything, as the OP “Two Churches” Explanation represents a simple Biblical FACT. Peter’s Kingdom Bride (Church #1) has a completely different heavenly ‘purpose’ (priestly (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Peter%202:9;&version=49;) intercession (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%201:6,%205:10;&version=49;)) than our “Body of Christ” (Church #2) already baptized into Christ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%203:27;&version=49;) (diagram (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/67.jpg)). If you will open up the ‘diagram,’ then you will see Peter, John, James, Etc. standing “before the throne” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%207:15;&version=49;) upon the “sea of glass” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%204:6,%2015:2;&version=49;) where everyone saved via the “Gospel of the Kingdom” stands serving the Lamb day and night. However, those of us obeying Paul’s Gospel are already “IN The Lamb” standing in the “center of the throne” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%207:17;&version=49;) making ready to judge the world and the angels (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor%206:2-3;&version=49;) on either side of our ‘central’ position. A third “The Elect” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2024:30-31;&version=49;) group is being called via the ‘Eternal Gospel’ (Rev 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2014:6;&version=49;)) to become the citizenry of ‘heaven’ outside of Paul’s Mystery Body of Christ ‘and’ outside Peter’s Kingdom Bride. Mere citizens of heaven ‘and’ members of Peter’s Kingdom Bride (Church #1) have no ‘equality’ with the members of Christ’s Body already baptized into the Lamb. Peter, John, James and every member of the Kingdom Bride has the opportunity to join us “IN Christ Jesus” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%202:6-7;&version=49;) at the END of every age (diagram (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/26.jpg)) via the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” (Rev. 19:5-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2019:5-10;&version=49;)) where ‘they’ achieve something ‘near’ equal status. However, the citizens of heaven must join Peter on the sea of glass, or the ‘water witness’ section of New Jerusalem (ages to come), before they have the opportunity to join us (Church #2) IN Christ Jesus; like I am,

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

[boloboffin]

Hi Bolo:




Pride has nothing to do with anything, as the OP “Two Churches” Explanation represents a simple Biblical FACT. Peter’s Kingdom Bride (Church #1) has a completely different heavenly ‘purpose’ (priestly (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Peter%202:9;&version=49;) intercession (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%201:6,%205:10;&version=49;)) than our “Body of Christ” (Church #2) already baptized into Christ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%203:27;&version=49;) (diagram (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/67.jpg)). If you will open up the ‘diagram,’ then you will see Peter, John, James, Etc. standing “before the throne” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%207:15;&version=49;) upon the “sea of glass” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%204:6,%2015:2;&version=49;) where everyone saved via the “Gospel of the Kingdom” stands serving the Lamb day and night. However, those of us obeying Paul’s Gospel are already “IN The Lamb” standing in the “center of the throne” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%207:17;&version=49;) making ready to judge the world and the angels (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor%206:2-3;&version=49;) on either side of our ‘central’ position. A third group “The Elect” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2024:30-31;&version=49;) are being called via the ‘Eternal Gospel’ (Rev 14:6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev%2014:6;&version=49;)) to become the citizenry of ‘heaven’ outside of Paul’s Mystery Body of Christ ‘and’ outside Peter’s Kingdom Bride. Mere citizens of heaven ‘and’ members of Peter’s Kingdom Bride (Church #1) have no ‘equality’ with the members of Christ’s Body already baptized into the Lamb. Peter, John, James and every member of the Kingdom Bride has the opportunity to join us “IN Christ Jesus” (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Eph%202:6-7;&version=49;) at the END of every age via the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” (Rev. 19:5-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%2019:5-10;&version=49;)) where ‘they’ achieve something ‘near’ equal status. However, the citizens of heaven must join Peter on the sea of glass, or the ‘water witness’ section of New Jerusalem (ages to come), before they have the opportunity to join us (Church #2) IN Christ Jesus; like I am,

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

I see. It's even worse than separate but equal.

I reject your false doctrine for the back-of-the-bus display of racial snobbery that it is.

ETA: Oh, wait. Wow. You're closer to God than Peter, James, or John?

:dl:

That doesn't even make sense, Terral.

[Damien Evans]

Right. I can't understand any of Terralls rant, so I'll read it agian in the morning.

[aggle-rithm]

we have nothing to even debate.

Bravo, Terral. You have FINALLY said something I can agree with.

[Radrook]

There was no Christian church in existence prior to Jesus' death, resurrection and glorification and ascension to heaven. The Old Law Covenant was still in force and the New Covenant under which Christians were to function via grace had not as yet been instituted. The Christian church was officially inaugurated during Pentecost after Christ ascended into heaven and presented the value of his sacrifice before God.


This was foreshadowed by the Israelite High Priest entering into the Tabernacle or Temples most holy with in order to present the blood of the sacrifice for forgiveness of sins.


Hebrews 9:23-25 (New King James Version)

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another—


Unless this presentation were made then forgiveness could not be instituted and the Christian church would have no basis upon which to exist or function. That's why it was instituted AFTER Christ ascended into the most holy-heaven itself with the value of his sacrifice.


Hebrews 9:
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come,[a] with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

So any pre-ascension symbolic or direct references to the church were by necessity references concerning this soon-to-be established church and any references after his ascension were of necessity references to the church established via his sacrifice and inaugurated on the day of Pentecost when proof was given via holy spirit that the New Covenant was now in force.

[~enigma~]

Hi Enigma:

No answer once again. Your god would be proud. On ignore you go...your god should be proud of me...

[Darth Rotor]

Hi Darth:

In other words, in ‘your’ universe then God is incapable of even delivering His mail (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2tim%202:15,%203:16-17;&version=49;).
Not quite. God's gift of free will, to stick with the general theme of your OP, allows for people to make a variety of choices, and over two thousand quite a few choices have been made regarding the establishment, maintenance, and transformation of the Church (which is God's people, in general terms.) You have to choose to follow Christ in either case. Each effort to redefine "The True Church" has met with internal contradiction in one form or another.
There are plenty of topics in this Religion Forum for Darth to select a subject that he ‘does’ know something about.
Huh? What has that to do with this conversation? No need to speak of me in the third person, I am not an NBA player.
I am a member of Paul’s “Body of Christ” Church #2 saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works
Got it. As I understand your position, Peter's Church are all splitters, and were not brought into the fold by the time of Constantine and the Council of Nicea. I disagree with your stand on that. Jesus guidance as recorded in scripture was that salvation was open to all.
Peter’s “Gospel of the Kingdom” and his “Kingdom Bride” (church #1) have absolutely nothing to do with me.
As I understand this statement, you do not take the Scriptures as inerrant, and are for deleting a considerable portion of them from the canon. Do I have that right?
In Christ Jesus,

Terral
Why do you find Pietro, (Peter) Jesus' Rock upon whom he would build his church, unsuitable?

Why the need to reject an element of the canon?

ETA: should I ignore this?

1st Peter 3:15, "Teach the truth in love."

What's in it for you?

DR

[fuelair]

Hi

Time does not freeze in place. Over the last two thousand years, whatever the originators tried to establish has been adapted to, changed, and transformed by any number of well meaning, and some not so well meaning, agents.

Are you trying to measure yourself for a Kilt? We both ask the "So What" of your OP.


Which True Church are you a member of?

Church number 1? Peter's

Church number 2? Paul's

I'll take Church number 3: something that exists today, in the here and now. The best laid plans of mice and men oft gang aglee.

As for Elijah, he tossed the ring into Mount Doom, and has retired to the Undying Lands. Nice place, if this picture is to be believed.

*cue up Styx*

Come sail away
Come sail away
Come sail away with me . . .



DR

Actually, I assumed Church 1: Peter
Church 2: Paul
Church 3: Mounds

I think chocolate over coconut would make a great church.


Or a great candy bar, anyway.

As to the OP, what's the point, it's all ficticious jibjab.

[Darth Rotor]

Actually, I assumed Church 1: Peter
Church 2: Paul
Church 3: Mounds

For me the Almond Joy is superior, but I bow to your superlative interpretational (and by interpretational I mean chocolate) powers.

Note: On second thought, Mounds is more doctrinally correct. Almond Joy might be misconstrued as All Man Joy, which I think is not doctrinally sound (Deuteronomy comes to mind), and of course due to the Bible having been written in English. I thus conclude that we must separate Church from Chocolate. (The coconuts are for equine transportation.)

'Tis a separation devoutly to be wish'd. ;)

DR

[Tanstaafl]

For me the Almond Joy is superior, but I bow to your superlative interpretational (and by interpretational I mean chocolate) powers.

Note: On second thought, Mounds is more doctrinally correct. Almond Joy might be misconstrued as All Man Joy, which I think is not doctrinally sound (Deuteronomy comes to mind), and of course due to the Bible having been written in English. I thus conclude that we must separate Church from Chocolate. (The coconuts are for equine transportation.)

'Tis a separation devoutly to be wish'd. ;)

DR


Ah, now I understand! It was the sermon on the Mounds.

Almond Joy to the World!

[chris epic]

Jesus guidance as recorded in scripture was that salvation was open to all.

And I just wanted to add, Terrel, that this biblical statement is where your "two churches" theory falls apart. Those that share the above in common ARE the church: the ecclesia (or assembly) of like-minded believers. This transcends factions and denomination because factions and denominations tend to be a human construct, not a spiritual.

Besides, Paul is the only one that agrees with himself, same with Peter (in each of their writings).