Modern Culture and Satire

[beeksc1]

Some things are best experienced if taken seriously, and some cultures of today indulge in an opportunity to lighten up. Satire is one of defining aspects of modern culture.

And it’s like limited aspects of refined modern culture ‘pokes fun’ at itself. We see it in Bill Hicks (who is more beloved in the UK than he is in his home country) with his ludicrous portrayals of goat boy (BH is a hero).

We see it in the Simpson’s (Bart writing ‘I will not illegally download this movie’ and episode’s like ‘Behind the Laughter’ and so many other places.
(A description of that episode can be found on Wikipedia. 15 posts)

and a lot of examples from Dave Chappelle’s show instant classics such as O'Dweeds and the black white supremacist who is without eyesight. ‘The first "Frontline" sketch, "Blind Supremacy", featured the life of Clayton Bigsby (played by Chappelle), a biography of a blind white supremacist who is not aware that he is actually a black man.’ –wiki

Frank Zappa, Wowie Zowie “is carefully designed to suck the 12 year old listener into our camp”

I would think that what (in part) Mighty Python is about.

[Gravy]

I would think that what (in part) Mighty Python is about.How many times do you have to be asked to refrain from sexual innuendo?

[Loss Leader]

I would think that what (in part) Mighty Python is about.



I'm not sure of your point. If it's that satire is a new invention, it isn't. It's as old as theater. If it's that the British somehow appreciate satire more than Americans, I don't see that as true. South Park, the Daily Show, "Citizen Kane," and several of the examples you mentioned are all American. If it's that Monty Python is a good example of satire, I don't think that's accurate. They did some satire but mainly broke comedy ground in the area of absurdism (especially absurdism as a response to authority).

But I agree satire is good. Hooray, satire.

[beeksc1]

Gravey, the first post is not what you insinuated.
Are you quick to judge?
How many times do you have to be told:
If you do not have anything meaningful to say, then just dance instead.
And please get over your ultra (militantly) feminized mentality.
Feminized, not feminine (please note the difference)
It took me a minute to put together what you thought you talking about.
And true ladies do not have their head in the gutter. And if you did not, I thought you would have been able to say something more intelligent than that.

A healthy level of cynicism is sometimes sought after, Loss Leader, but it seems like you are just trying to be a jerk. Are you?
Most of us are well aware that satire is not entirely new.

Can you share other examples, where they are intentionally are ‘poking fun’ of themselves?

Thank you for bringing up what might be called a point.
Maybe the point is that what we do is both insignificant and significant at the same time.

Yin Yang

And what I was talking about Mighty Python and the Holy Grail is that, I not sure if the creators of that are satirizing themselves or if it is of the entire society at large.

I have only scene the film once, and that was more than 6 months ago.

Definitely, Citizen Kane is great.

Rosebud: the piece that always keeps us looking for better things?

[m_huber]

No offense, but could you put together a single, coherent sentence that summarizes your main point? I can't quite seem to grasp what it is.

[RobRoy]

Sorry I'm in agreement with the others. I thought this might be a discussion of current satirical trends and their influence (Daily Show, Colbert Report, etc.) or perhaps current satrical literature on modern themes (George Romero, World War Z, etc.).

But if there was a theme, a question, a comment or a discussion point, I couldn't find it.

I don't mean that rudely or disparagingly at all. I would love to discuss any of the above, or whatever else you had in mind.

[beeksc1]

No offence is taken by me, I hope you feel the same

Overstanding

Even though it’s pretty clear, you have to look

Let me reiterate,

Maybe the point is that what we do (actions, behaviors, thought patterns) is both insignificant and significant simultaneously.

Can you share other examples where pieces of art satirize themselves?

Exactly, Colbert report is hilarious
His stuff on Wikiality is pretty comical

[Loss Leader]

A healthy level of cynicism is sometimes sought after, Loss Leader, but it seems like you are just trying to be a jerk. Are you?
Most of us are well aware that satire is not entirely new.

Can you share other examples, where they are intentionally are ‘poking fun’ of themselves?

Thank you for bringing up what might be called a point.
Maybe the point is that what we do is both insignificant and significant at the same time.

Yin Yang

And what I was talking about Mighty Python and the Holy Grail is that, I not sure if the creators of that are satirizing themselves or if it is of the entire society at large.




I agree with the other posters. I am absolutely at sea as to what it is you are trying to express or what you would like to discuss about it.

[beeksc1]

From the tune “we got the jazz”, some poetic lyrics from a brother from a tribe called quest

“I don't really mind if it's over your head
Cuz the job of resurrectors is to wake up the dead
So pay attention, it's not hard to decipher
And after the horns, you can check out the Phifer”

Some people do not understand (overstand) things because they do not allow themselves to understand.

I hope (right now) this thread is a lousy representation of what goes on in this community because the seasoned posters are acting like a bunch of phonies who are unable to look people in their eyes
Window to our soul?
Would you be saying that stuff if you and I were to make eye contact.
Please cut out the militarism.
We all should be working toward peace.

Why cannot a person be agreeable and be a critical thinker?

It’s just a tread about satirical trends and their influences

[drkitten]

Some people do not understand (overstand) things because they do not allow themselves to understand.

On the other hand, some people do not understand things because the things are so badly expressed that they cannot be understood. And some people do not understand things because the things themselves cannot be understood by any rational agent.


Would you be saying that stuff if you and I were to make eye contact.

No. If we were making eye contact, I would look you in the eye and tell you that you were writing gibberish. As is, I will simply tell you that you're not expressing yourself well.

[beeksc1]

People like you (who worry too much) never cease to amaze
as is, I will simply tell you that you're not expressing yourself well.

Is not a bit presumptuous?

People similar to those who posted the low comments are basically admitting that they are people not worth talking to or they are just cowards

Everyone can agree that there is always probably a better way to express the truth; but is not it established that words (physical reality in general) is limiting?

Anyway, satire

[madurobob]

Some things are best experienced if taken seriously, and some cultures of today indulge in an opportunity to lighten up. Satire is one of defining aspects of modern culture.

And it’s like limited aspects of refined modern culture ‘pokes fun’ at itself. We see it in Bill Hicks (who is more beloved in the UK than he is in his home country) with his ludicrous portrayals of goat boy (BH is a hero).

We see it in the Simpson’s (Bart writing ‘I will not illegally download this movie’ and episode’s like ‘Behind the Laughter’ and so many other places.
(A description of that episode can be found on Wikipedia. 15 posts)

and a lot of examples from Dave Chappelle’s show instant classics such as O'Dweeds and the black white supremacist who is without eyesight. ‘The first "Frontline" sketch, "Blind Supremacy", featured the life of Clayton Bigsby (played by Chappelle), a biography of a blind white supremacist who is not aware that he is actually a black man.’ –wiki

Frank Zappa, Wowie Zowie “is carefully designed to suck the 12 year old listener into our camp”

I would think that what (in part) Mighty Python is about.

Dude, that is one fine piece of satire right there.

Run-on sentences, sentence fragments, misspellings and malapropisms wrapped in an incoherent rambling reminiscent of Corn Dog George - all posted on an erudite skeptics forum. Well played, sir!

[tkingdoll]

Satire is beauty

Is it not important for us to see the beauty in what makes us laugh?

To parody what makes society great and acknowledge that we are human

I myself am influenced by satire. Anyone who disagrees with me needs to look to themselves. Who is the one laughing?

[Loss Leader]

People like you (who worry too much) never cease to amaze


Is not a bit presumptuous?

People similar to those who posted the low comments are basically admitting that they are people not worth talking to or they are just cowards

Everyone can agree that there is always probably a better way to express the truth; but is not it established that words (physical reality in general) is limiting?

Anyway, satire



What?

[RobRoy]

Several of my favorite authors, as well as some critical thinking and speech comm instructors have all given me the same advice:

If your audience fails to understand you, it's your fault.

This is a perfect example of that.

[drkitten]

Is not a bit presumptuous?

Short answer: No, it's not.

Longer answer. NNNNNNNooooooooo, iiiiiiittttttt's nnnnnnnnoooooooottttttttttt.

[beeksc1]

Several of my favorite authors, as well as some critical thinking and speech comm instructors have all given me the same advice:

If your audience fails to understand you, it's your fault.

This is a perfect example of that.

And your favorite authors and you: do you often account for competency?
You have to be pretty selfish to say:

IF, the audience does not gain a full understanding,
THEN, the leader/presenter is primarily responsible, always

Please realize that we all conditioned to a point, but others are not spitting up your cheeky banter of stutter

And you are a perfect example of… Ah, you can find out for yourself, so we can learn kinds of lessons

Well, Albert Camus’ The Fall is a good read. You might want to check it out, if you have not already.

Dr. K, short/long answer: that’s clever; no, really, it is
3rd definition at Wiktionary (15 posts)

Loss Leader, what does avatar represent? I hope it something that is truly good.

Other people have already acknowledged that the first post was ‘poking fun’ at itself in a way that was discussing satire. (Oh yea, The Fall is about a disintegration of self)

We have established that so, worthwhile posts are those push that forward the discussed topic/material.

Some people use the forums to do philosophy and some of ya’ll make it almost too humorous

“The truth is: we are all one consciousness, experiencing itself subjectively.”
- Bill Hicks

Satire is beauty

Is it not important for us to see the beauty in what makes us laugh?

To parody what makes society great and acknowledge that we are human

I myself am influenced by satire. Anyone who disagrees with me needs to look to themselves.

[slingblade]

1. It's Monty Python, not Mighty.

2. Gravy is no lady. ( Except possibly on lonely Sunday afternoons, in the privacy of his closet.)

[RobRoy]

And your favorite authors and you: do you often account for competency?
You have to be pretty selfish to say:

IF, the audience does not gain a full understanding,
THEN, the leader/presenter is primarily responsible, always

I did not say "gain a full understanding." I'm not even certain that's possible.

I said "fails to understand". Completely different animal.

But yes, it is the primary fault of the presenter. Yes, every time. A communicator has one job: to communicate to his/her audience. Part of that required this thing we in the industry like to call "audience analysis". A room full of twelve year old students is vastly different from a room full of PhD genetics professors who are all equally different from a room full of varying educations, backgrounds, and perspectives . . . like, say, a forum. If you, as the OP, fail to provide a communication equal to your audience, then yes, you're at fault. Each and every time.

Please realize that we all conditioned to a point, but others are not spitting up your cheeky banter of stutter

The fact that you find what I said to be "cheeky banter" reflects exactly what I've said: you're a poor communicator. Resorting to name-calling is the perfect evidence for that.

Well, Albert Camus’ The Fall is a good read. You might want to check it out, if you have not already.

No, actually, it's not. Reading the monologues of a Parisian attorney speaking only of himself as if he is truly that interesting is the epitome of self-absorbtion . . . which was part of Camus' point, but I didn't need 100 plus pages to get the point. The Happy Death is much more accessible, though if I want existentialism (knowing that Camus rejected the label, though it applied) I'll stick with Kafka's The Trial or Stoppard's Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead.

[Loss Leader]

Loss Leader, what does avatar represent? I hope it something that is truly good.


Oh, it is. The people of the Tau'ri are a noble race who helped free the galaxy from the Goa'uld. Even the Asgard have acknowledged their basic goodness. Of course, the Asgard are all naked so they may not be the foremost authority on morality.


We have established that so, worthwhile posts are those push that forward the discussed topic/material.


What the heck is the topic?


The Happy Death is much more accessible, though if I want existentialism (knowing that Camus rejected the label, though it applied) I'll stick with Kafka's The Trial or Stoppard's Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead.


Without question, The Stranger is the most important existentialist novel. And Waiting for Godot is the most important play. These facts cannot be argued. They are as absolute as the System Lords' grip on the Jaffa in seasons 1 through 8.

[RobRoy]

Without question, The Stranger is the most important existentialist novel. And Waiting for Godot is the most important play. These facts cannot be argued. They are as absolute as the System Lords' grip on the Jaffa in seasons 1 through 8.

Well . . . I think it could be questioned. I think we could argue Kierkegaard's Either/Or or Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra or even Dostoevsky's Notes from the Underground are more important. Note that I said "could be argued". I'm not really one for monolithic statements like "the most important" anything, unless I'm applying it directly to me.

Also, I loathe "Waiting for Godot", but mostly because I had to sit through some terrible high school dramatic interpretations during speech competitions.

However, the point I was making was that from my point of view, The Stranger is not as accessible to audiences, as the other titles I mentioned.

[this charming man]

Swift: A Modest Proposal (http://books.google.com/books?id=WCsCR6yVPLIC&dq=a+modest+proposal&pg=PP1&ots=9CT5YZ6TfK&sig=j-evMRNsWcoZyt7c3JoLedhPjuI&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?q=a+modest+proposal+&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-17,GGGL:en&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail)

[beeksc1]

A description of Audience analysis be found on Wikipedia
How do you know that other people (discussing here) are not in the field of study?
Or as you did reefer to it as “in the industry”
T-tests? Probability distribution, for testing to see if the Null hypothesis holds true or not.
Falsification: if two groups are statistically similar to not?
Differences due to chance or not?
Tx strategy package? Attention placebo?

Again, presumption
Yea, most people that talk that way about being “in the industry” are tools

No one really cares about those little things called Ph.D and MD and those kind of degrees. It seems that often, those kind of people are pretty selfish and egocentric.
All people care about people who help other people and MDs do that a lot of the time. But I have never heard a compassionate doctor phrase something as “failing to understand” Even though we are all essentially the same, all doctors are the not principally the same, ya know man.

You are perfectly pointing that out.

The entirety of subjectivity equates to that of objectivity.

Hey, if you do not feel like tackleing the Fall or fear it to the point of aversion like you may have conveyed; it’s not other people’s loss.

You ‘talked about’ other things, but not the part about classical condition. There maybe some irony to that. Did you know that ‘desired’ behaviors are more often ‘achieved’ through reinforcement, rather than by punishment?

What do you think it means to be ‘down to Earth’?
Brother, we all need to let go of the personal past go.
Free your mind, esp. with statistical interpretations of satirical replications
Peace

[Gravy]

Gravey, the first post is not what you insinuated.
Are you quick to judge?
How many times do you have to be told:
If you do not have anything meaningful to say, then just dance instead.
And please get over your ultra (militantly) feminized mentality.
Feminized, not feminine (please note the difference)
It took me a minute to put together what you thought you talking about.
And true ladies do not have their head in the gutter. And if you did not, I thought you would have been able to say something more intelligent than that.
For someone whose first post was about satire, you seem to have trouble knowing when humor is being employed. A hint was given when I wrote "How many times do you have to be asked..." in response to your first post on this forum.

And what's with the "feminized mentality" and "true ladies" bit? Seriously, are you okay?

Also, it's "Gravy."

[Loss Leader]

However, the point I was making was that from my point of view, The Stranger is not as accessible to audiences, as the other titles I mentioned.


I agree that Rosencrantz... is the most audience-friendly. It's probably also the one that the most people can watch without realizing that the theme is existentialism. As a teenager, it was The Stranger that opened my eyes to the idea that it was possible there was no God. And it was really short.


The entirety of subjectivity equates to that of objectivity.


What?

[beeksc1]

Yea I thought about that first post for a while.
And for your other inquires: please look to the part about conditioning.
People on this site have over ten thousand posts, and they are asking if I’m okay
Yea, I am all right, thank you for asking?
Some people enjoy creativity more than science; and we do not the empirical stuff to overshadow the meaningful stuff.

Piano
G to the C to the D, back to G
A to the D to the E, back to A

Just saying, ten thousand posts +; some of that time could be allot toward music or other creative expressions. Do you play?
Gravey, no Gravy, wait …
No I can call you Gravey
Yes we are creating here, but are you all right?

I go by beeks beks bk b; whatever it’s not precisely meaningful

[Gravy]

It's not English, but it's an interesting attempt at poetry nonetheless. Sort of like the poetry of Phil Rizzuto (http://brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/122/) that was featured in The Village Voice years ago.

[beeksc1]

Gravy, I was drawn to this forum because of people exposing what happened on 9/11 and stuff along those lines.
Thank you for what you have contributed
I am not sure exactly what the last post means, I hope it was well intended
We can all learn to get along, even if we do not entirety agree; and at the same time, we can still be agreeable.
And if your being satirical, a tipping of one’s hat

[Gravy]

beek, thanks for your kind words. It's not that I disagree with you, it's that I have no freaking idea what you're rambling about.

[Loss Leader]

I am not sure exactly what the last post means, I hope it was well intended



My son gives me looks intended to convey just about exactly the same sentiment. Of course, he's four months old.

[madurobob]

Beeks, are you still here?

Yea I thought about that first post for a while.
And for your other inquires: please look to the part about conditioning.
People on this site have over ten thousand posts, and they are asking if I’m okay
Yea, I am all right, thank you for asking?
Some people enjoy creativity more than science; and we do not the empirical stuff to overshadow the meaningful stuff.
Please tell me - and I mean no offense: is English your native language?


Piano
G to the C to the D, back to G
A to the D to the E, back to A

Interesting. I like it with the steel drum filter (http://www.bgfl.org/bgfl/custom/resources_ftp/client_ftp/ks2/music/piano/index.htm). But, whats this all about?

If you've browsed this forum I'm sure you have come to realize that satire is a favorite form of communication here. Sure "Some things are best experienced if taken seriously", but some things are best communicated via satire. Satire can effectively bypass people's automatic defense mechanisms and help them freshen their thinking on a given subject without even realizing it. Its the spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down.

But, honestly, I am at a loss to understand what you are getting at in this thread. Am I even close?

[RobRoy]

A description of Audience analysis be found on Wikipedia

Not a very good one, if you mean this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audience_analysis)

How do you know that other people (discussing here) are not in the field of study?

I haven't questioned this.

Or as you did reefer to it as “in the industry”

Man, would I love to reefer it! :cool:

T-tests? Probability distribution, for testing to see if the Null hypothesis holds true or not.
Falsification: if two groups are statistically similar to not?
Differences due to chance or not?
Tx strategy package? Attention placebo?

Statistical analysis isn't even half of proper audience analysis.

Again, presumption
Yea, most people that talk that way about being “in the industry” are tools

As opposed to those who make themselves feel bigger by name-calling.

No one really cares about those little things called Ph.D and MD and those kind of degrees. It seems that often, those kind of people are pretty selfish and egocentric.

No one, huh? Citation?

But I have never heard a compassionate doctor phrase something as “failing to understand” Even though we are all essentially the same, all doctors are the not principally the same, ya know man.

Actually, a failure to properly communication is consider one of the biggest problems in the healthcare industry. The Institute of Medicine, New England Journal of Medicine and the Journal of the American Medical Association have all reported that miscommunication and "failing to understand" account for an unfortunate number of deaths (44,000 to 98,000) every year. But thanks for playing! :thanks

Hey, if you do not feel like tackleing the Fall or fear it to the point of aversion like you may have conveyed; it’s not other people’s loss.

Kindly pay attention. I didn't say I hadn't read The Fall, in fact, I believe I provided a brief synopsis of the book, gave my thoughts on it, and then compared it to other, similar works. :woo

[RobRoy]

I agree that Rosencrantz... is the most audience-friendly. It's probably also the one that the most people can watch without realizing that the theme is existentialism.

Probably because it's very cohesive, and quite humorous, taking a very familiar play and turning it on its head.

As a teenager, it was The Stranger that opened my eyes to the idea that it was possible there was no God. And it was really short.

Oddly, it was Plato's concept of the two-horse chariot and the Forms that did that for me. The Stranger just didn't resonate.

[beeksc1]

Please tell me - and I mean no offense: is English your native language?


Yeah; it’s my first language. Had three of high school Latin; but other than that, it’s the language I’m familiar with.
Any particular reason?
I know the first post did not use the best grammar; but that was part of the bit.
And sometimes I enjoy being spontaneous. I mostly edit my posts; but some ppl go overboard on editing.


As opposed to those who make themselves feel bigger by name-calling.

You seem to get caught up that kind of stuff. Please point out if you would like to discuss if it is true or not; not to whether it applies to you or not.

[QUOTE=RobRoy;3462161] No one, huh? Citation?

Please, cite our intuitive sense.

Man, would I love to reefer it! :cool:

Sounds good.
And please stop taking things out of context.

[madurobob]

Yeah; it’s my first language. Had three of high school Latin; but other than that, it’s the language I’m familiar with.
Any particular reason?
I know the first post did not use the best grammar; but that was part of the bit.
Thats it exactly, thanks! The rough grammar had me trying too hard to read between the lines.. kinda part of "the bit", I think.

Thats just it with satire - you never know if your audience is actually getting it.

[beeksc1]

For the people (discussing here) who are “Marketing professionals” or people “in the industry”

Since this is page about satire and other good stuff

Some wisdom from Bill Hicks…

“By the way, if anyone here is in advertising or marketing, kill yourself.

Just a little thought. I'm just trying to plant seeds. Maybe one day, they'll take root. I don't know. You try. You do what you can. Kill yourself.

*snip*” –Bill Hicks

Thats just it with satire - you never know if your audience is actually getting it.


Other people noted some older satire.

“A Modest Proposal: For Preventing the Children of Poor People in Ireland from Being a Burden to Their Parents or Country, and for Making Them Beneficial to the Publick, commonly referred to as A Modest Proposal, is a satirical pamphlet written and published by Jonathan Swift in 1729. Swift suggests in his essay that the Irish might ease their economic troubles by selling children born into poverty as food for rich gentlemen and ladies. The modern phrase "a modest proposal" derives from the work.” -Wiki

[QUOTE=this charming man;3458959]Swift: A Modest Proposal (http://books.google.com/books?id=WCsCR6yVPLIC&dq=a+modest+proposal&pg=PP1&ots=9CT5YZ6TfK&sig=j-evMRNsWcoZyt7c3JoLedhPjuI&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?q=a+modest+proposal+&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-17,GGGL:en&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail)



To make it clearer that this is a quotation from a "comedian" I have enclosed it in a quote box. In the interests of copyright, I have also snipped it.

[Gazpacho]

Reported, whether satire or not.

[beeksc1]

Thank you fixing the Bill Hicks post.
Bill Hicks material or quotes can be found here.
There's a fuller except of that is here too.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bill_Hicks

Aristophanes

Aristophanes, son of Philippus, was a Greek Old Comic dramatist. He is also known as the Father of Comedy and the Prince of Ancient Comedy.[1]
Character Sketches of Romance, Fiction and the Drama, Vol. 1
http://manybooks.net/support/b/brewere/brewere1143111431-8.exp.html

“Many of Aristophanes' plays were political, and often satirized well-known citizens of Athens and their conduct in the Peloponnesian War and after… The Clouds satirizes the sophistic learning en vogue among the aristocracy at the time, placed poorly at the City Dionysia.” –Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristophanes

Reported, whether satire or not.

A speech or album?
What is it?

[drkitten]

A speech or album?
What is it?

A meaningless, incoherent, waste of bandwidth, in this case.

You've still failed to establish any sort of a point to this thread.

[m_huber]

Aristophanes

Aristophanes, son of Philippus, was a Greek Old Comic dramatist. He is also known as the Father of Comedy and the Prince of Ancient Comedy.[1]
Character Sketches of Romance, Fiction and the Drama, Vol. 1
http://manybooks.net/support/b/brewere/brewere1143111431-8.exp.html

“Many of Aristophanes' plays were political, and often satirized well-known citizens of Athens and their conduct in the Peloponnesian War and after… The Clouds satirizes the sophistic learning en vogue among the aristocracy at the time, placed poorly at the City Dionysia.” –Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristophanes


I think this is supposed to say "I like Aristophanes. He was a really famous Greek playwright, and his satire was very effective. His plays are still regarded as being influential. One of his really great plays was "The Clouds." Do you guys think that Aristophanes was the Father of Comedy?"

Maybe.

[madurobob]

meh - Aristophenes? Just a tad bland for my taste.

I prefer my satire in the form of juvenile lampooning. Among my favorite magazines in the 70's was National Lampoon. Among my favorite satire sites today are Landoverbaptist.org (http://www.landoverbaptist.org/) and theonion.com (http://www.theonion.com/content/index)

At least once a month one of these is quoted by someone in the "straight" media who doesn't get the joke.

And, I have it on high authority from my father that satire simply didn't exist before Mad Magazine invented it in the 50s.

I'm trying hard to play along here beeks, throw us a bone.

[Loss Leader]

To make it clearer that this is a quotation from a "comedian" I have enclosed it in a quote box. In the interests of copyright, I have also snipped it.


Somehow, I don't think Bill Hicks is going to mind.

[fuelair]

Gravey, the first post is not what you insinuated.
Are you quick to judge?
How many times do you have to be told:
If you do not have anything meaningful to say, then just dance instead.
And please get over your ultra (militantly) feminized mentality.
Feminized, not feminine (please note the difference)
It took me a minute to put together what you thought you talking about.
And true ladies do not have their head in the gutter. And if you did not, I thought you would have been able to say something more intelligent than that.

A healthy level of cynicism is sometimes sought after, Loss Leader, but it seems like you are just trying to be a jerk. Are you?
Most of us are well aware that satire is not entirely new.

Can you share other examples, where they are intentionally are ‘poking fun’ of themselves?

Thank you for bringing up what might be called a point.
Maybe the point is that what we do is both insignificant and significant at the same time.

Yin Yang

And what I was talking about Mighty Python and the Holy Grail is that, I not sure if the creators of that are satirizing themselves or if it is of the entire society at large.

I have only scene the film once, and that was more than 6 months ago.

Definitely, Citizen Kane is great.

Rosebud: the piece that always keeps us looking for better things?

Being correct about some things (and you are) will not save you from being attacked here if you play games - and blame persons ill-advisedly for not wishing to make the effort to follow your meanderings through the language. You are not James Joyce (who could get away with that sort of thing).
Expect derision if you continue writing this way. If you want your material to be treated respectfully, , write that way. If you don't care - and wish to be mostly ignored - don't.
Also, I have no idea whether you realize it is Monty not Mighty afore Python but, if you refer to Mighty Python Gravy has every reason to launch the response he launched.

Learn well, grasshopper and become great among us - or don't. The choice is yours.

[RobRoy]

You seem to get caught up that kind of stuff. Please point out if you would like to discuss if it is true or not; not to whether it applies to you or not.

Oh, I didn't realize this was a topic for discussion. Resorting to name-calling is usually the bastion of an immature mind who can't think of anything better to say.

Now, as to whether I, or anyone else, is "a tool" simply by being in a communication industry strikes me as guilt by association. For example, I could say that anyone who refers to others as being "a tool" is themselves a tool. That doesn't make it true, but it also doesn't make it false. Since this is a broad generalization, then I'd say that it was completely and utterly false. While I, myself, might be a tool, I have several co-workers who certainly aren't.

Please, cite our intuitive sense.

Very nicely strawmanned. Thank you for proving my point.

Now, do you have any response to all the things that I've pointed out where you were blatantly wrong about communication and understanding, or are you just going to continue to dodge?

[Soapy Sam]

I think this thread is a hoot.

Addison, Steele, Lamb, Johnson, Swift- Dryden, gods forfend! Modern?

*Soapy falls off chair in jollity*

[beeksc1]

Maybe the point is to ‘poke fun’ at people who are anal-retentive.

M-Huber, if you do care for the wordage, talk to Wikipedia.
Got it right from Wiki, as I showed.

I'm trying hard to play along here beeks, throw us a bone.
Hey man, it’s not like that; it’s like free association and satire.

Spot on about the Bill Hicks, Loss Leader

Learn well, grasshopper and become great among us - or don't. The choice is yours.

We all are unified, in one way or another. I’m trying to let you know, in ways I know best and I am trying to find progress.

With a post like that, are you the one who is putting separation in there?

FuelAir, and I do agree we all are essentially one.

Thank you for proving my point.

Not a problem, my good sir.
Was your point that: Bill Hicks knows what’s up?


Resorting to name-calling is usually the bastion of an immature mind who can't think of anything better to say.

Maybe I was a tad unclear.

Some wisdom (from Bill Hicks) that you should take, if it applies to you.

Edited to remove inappropriate remark.

Do not advocate suicide, even by proxy.

I think this thread is a hoot.

[m_huber]

M-Huber, if you do care for the wordage, talk to Wikipedia.
In that case, it's a rules violation.

[madurobob]

Wow - I just had a brilliant idea for a new thread: each new poster must post befuddling and garbled posts that in no way respond to any questions or points made in the previous posts, but continue to ask questions and make points.

Oh, wait, we do already have the CT sub-forum. And, of course, Expanding Earth Theory.

[Piscivore]

In that case, it's a rules violation.

So is advocating suicide, even if by proxy. Which beeks has done twice now.

[beeksc1]

M-Huber, Sorry if I went beyond the guidelines
I’ll try to limit myself next time

Ok, I won’t bring the expanding ideas of Bill Hicks, if other people have such an aversion to his points.

Would our world be better off without the “professional” input of marketing ‘people’?

Addison, Steele, Lamb, Johnson, Swift- Dryden, gods forfend! Modern?

[RobRoy]

Ahh, I get it now. beeksc1's is all about humor, just not satire and not on purpose. I will demonstrate:

Not a problem, my good sir.
Was your point that: Bill Hicks knows what’s up?

Behavior humor or perceptual humor - a character unintentionally or intentionally misinterprets or mistakening acts our an activity. In this case, it's unintentional. This can also be termed "acting the fool".

Maybe I was a tad unclear.

Some wisdom (from Bill Hicks) that you should take, if it applies to you.

Defense mechanism humor - acting out in a rash, regressive or wish fulfillment manner. Usually child-like in their reactions, and foolish to the audience as a whole.

Would our world be better off without the “professional” input of marketing ‘people’?

Blame ridicule - similar to defense mechanism humor, these are fantastical and unassociated connections with no practical or real world value.

Genuis man, not on purpose mind, but still, comic gold! Do carry on.

[Piscivore]

Would our world be better off without the “professional” input of marketing ‘people’?

No.

[beeksc1]

Who are you kiddin' besides yourself?

[Loss Leader]

Spot on about the Bill Hicks, Loss Leader



Yes, well, I think we can all agree that Bill Hicks is dead.

[beeksc1]

On Earth, he no longer exists.

[RobRoy]

Who are you kiddin' besides yourself?

Excellent. Acting the fool AND defense mechanism in the same sentence.

Keep going!

[Piscivore]

Who are you kiddin' besides yourself?

Aw, I see poor little beeker got suspended already.

Well, If you come back here, beeker, I have reasons for thinking so beyond a soundbite from a dead comedian. If you want to actually discuss it, let me know.

If you wanted to just blow in here and impress us with how smart you consider yourself- well, then, you can see how well that turned out.

[RobRoy]

If you wanted to just blow in here and impress us with how smart you consider yourself- well, then, you can see how well that turned out.

Yes, but he was quite fun there at the end. Not intentionally, of course. But quite fun!

[fuelair]

Ahh, I get it now. beeksc1's is all about humor, just not satire and not on purpose. I will demonstrate:



Behavior humor or perceptual humor - a character unintentionally or intentionally misinterprets or mistakening acts our an activity. In this case, it's unintentional. This can also be termed "acting the fool".



Defense mechanism humor - acting out in a rash, regressive or wish fulfillment manner. Usually child-like in their reactions, and foolish to the audience as a whole.



Blame ridicule - similar to defense mechanism humor, these are fantastical and unassociated connections with no practical or real world value.

Genuis man, not on purpose mind, but still, comic gold! Do carry on.

That kind of stuff is why I loathed a comedian who started out with confrontational humor. My attitude is to defend those the "person" is attacking and give them a pass if they react to the personal (mental,emotional) assault of such with a physical assault on the "comedian".. Working, of course, on the theory that an artist should be helped to suffer for his art. After Andy Kaufman went to real humor, he was quite funny and I enjoyed his work - quick mind, quick responses. I supported the wrestler,earlier, who almost broke him in half though.

[RobRoy]

That kind of stuff is why I loathed a comedian who started out with confrontational humor. My attitude is to defend those the "person" is attacking and give them a pass if they react to the personal (mental,emotional) assault of such with a physical assault on the "comedian".. Working, of course, on the theory that an artist should be helped to suffer for his art. After Andy Kaufman went to real humor, he was quite funny and I enjoyed his work - quick mind, quick responses. I supported the wrestler,earlier, who almost broke him in half though.

So you didn't like his earlier stuff, but appreciate him later? Did you ever catch one of his "happenings"? I wasn't old enough for Kauffman to have any impact on me past watching "Taxi" where I still blurred the lines between actors and their characters. I've always been curious how he came off to the average viewer.

[gumboot]

W

T

F

[fuelair]

So you didn't like his earlier stuff, but appreciate him later? Did you ever catch one of his "happenings"? I wasn't old enough for Kauffman to have any impact on me past watching "Taxi" where I still blurred the lines between actors and their characters. I've always been curious how he came off to the average viewer.


If by his happenings you mean the Mighty Mouse on a kid's record player"Berate the audience member as an idiot" thing (my first exposure to him). And /or his "annoy a professional wrestler till the pro wrestler does a trip on him" thing then yes I did. If not, no. By the time of Latka, he was doing good-funny- comedy of a different type. And was very good at it - so I paid attention. By my standards, it's a cheap and easy shot to make fun of the average person called up to do something by surprise. Cheap and easy may get some laughs but good comedy, lasting comedy tends to be real work.

[RobRoy]

If by his happenings you mean the Mighty Mouse on a kid's record player"Berate the audience member as an idiot" thing (my first exposure to him). And /or his "annoy a professional wrestler till the pro wrestler does a trip on him" thing then yes I did. If not, no. By the time of Latka, he was doing good-funny- comedy of a different type. And was very good at it - so I paid attention. By my standards, it's a cheap and easy shot to make fun of the average person called up to do something by surprise. Cheap and easy may get some laughs but good comedy, lasting comedy tends to be real work.

No, that's exactly what I meant. I thought they were called "happenings" when he pulled some stunt. I always wondered if the originality of that was truly original, or just playing annoying behavior off as comedy.

[Loss Leader]

No, that's exactly what I meant. I thought they were called "happenings" when he pulled some stunt. I always wondered if the originality of that was truly original, or just playing annoying behavior off as comedy.


Well, in terms of Mighty Mouse, I think the answer is clear. Nobody had ever done anything like it. Lorne Michaels and the SNL performers who were there all admit that Mighty Mouse was genius. I think you'd find very few professional commedians who disagree. Lorne Michaels: “More than any one thing in that first show he represented the spirit of what we were trying to do."

[Damien Evans]

Wow - I just had a brilliant idea for a new thread: each new poster must post befuddling and garbled posts that in no way respond to any questions or points made in the previous posts, but continue to ask questions and make points.

Oh, wait, we do already have the CT sub-forum. And, of course, Expanding Earth Theory.

The quote other people out of context thread already exists in humour.

[beeksc1]

If you wanted to just blow in here and impress us with how smart you consider yourself- well, then, you can see how well that turned out.


Hey man, Someone who I met (SWIM) does not have to show evidence for anything

Recognition?

+++

Anyway, . thread concerns satire and western (modern) culture...

The Great Dictator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Dictator
is satirical of Hitler

The Colbert Report demonstrates the methods of American satire

Swim would have to say that the comedy of Paul Mooney is quite satirical

[Marquis de Carabas]

I was under the impression modern culture was satire.

[Piscivore]

Oh. He's back. Still determined as ever to learn all us ignorant rubes. Please, Beeks. Share your brilliant insights with us.

[Wudang]

Please gentlemen, no satirizing in the satire thread!

[RobRoy]

Please gentlemen, no satirizing in the satire thread!

Slight pause while we all ponder upon the genuis that is Dr. Strangelove.

[PaKu]

Hey man, Someone who I met (SWIM) does not have to show evidence for anything

Recognition?

+++

Anyway, . thread concerns satire and western (modern) culture...

The Great Dictator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Dictator
is satirical of Hitler

The Colbert Report demonstrates the methods of American satire

Swim would have to say that the comedy of Paul Mooney is quite satirical
as a new poster i'm truly impressed by de patience en sheer will tot understand from the older posters here..
although, i'm not having what he's having

[PaKu]

as a new poster i'm truly impressed by de patience en sheer will tot understand from the older posters here..
although, i'm not having what he's having
ok,:o second post and first typo already

[aggle-rithm]

ok,:o second post and first typo already

With respect, if you could tell us which part was the typo, maybe we could parse that sentence...

[RobRoy]

With respect, if you could tell us which part was the typo, maybe we could parse that sentence...

Was that satire, sarcasm or irony? :D

[aggle-rithm]

Was that satire, sarcasm or irony? :D

Are those my only choices?

[RobRoy]

Are those my only choices?

Only if I was correct in my interpretation of your statement. If I was wrong, feel free to offer your ministrations. :D

[beeksc1]

Oh. He's back. Still determined as ever to learn all us ignorant rubes. Please, Beeks. Share your brilliant insights with us.


Projection? (I only feel obligated to include this kind of input when an individual is looking to exploit, agitate, or design disharmony.) Or if this is off, what is your point for posting as such

Swim is unsure as to how you got that impression. and Swim values a community that engages in intellectual forums. even if all the people cannot entirely agree on all topics; most of the members pursue an approach of agreeableness.

As Peter Tosh and Marley say,
"we are sick and tired of your -ism schism game."

That is, there are so many philosophies and ideologies that aim to divide the masses and disenfranchise a person; perhaps, the seasoned posters should welcome the newer members

And if you want to that approach; you have the freedom to do so. Other people might suggest an approach that strives to recognize similarities, instead of harping on the differences we share.

I know that the vast majority of members of this forum are intelligent and have something notable to offer

+++

Should not have posted the quotes from Bill Hicks that concerned marketing

all people have a contribution to make to the collective reservoir of the human experience

+++

I was under the impression modern culture was satire.

Modern culture generally seems like a one of consumerism; certain subcultures explore ideas through satirical content; but on the whole, modern culture (Greek era till present times, but especially referring to times of the post-industrial era) seems to include attributes and characterizations that are sought-after by the ruling elite. Those subcultures that delve into satirical expression are usually poking fun at the ideologies that are adopted by the sheeple.

It seems that the widespread modern culture (of Western origin) is generally crafted by the powers that be; the elitist ideologies aim to shape the cultures that are adopted by mainstream society; and one of objectives of satire seemingly seeks to impel the audience toward critical thought. And the overarching culture of modern society lacks a tendency toward critical analysis; the mainstream culture seems to involve topical entertainment, superficial topics, and hedonistic consumerism.

Definitely understand the perspective; but modern culture (at large) is often concerned with topics that intentionally avoid critical thinking, such as the topics that include the latest attire of Paris Hilton or what is up with Britney

Swim is unsure about those countries that regularly receive widespread subscriptions to People magazine; but "People" magazine is a publication about people who lead unreal lives; the irony...

+++

Slight pause while we all ponder upon the genuis that is Dr. Strangelove.

Oh yea

+++

Dave Chappelle's black white supremacist is considered an unprecedented event in the world of satirical comedy.

[Hokulele]

Dave Chappelle's black white supremacist is considered an unprecedented event in the world of satirical comedy.


Unprecedented by anyone unfamiliar with Richard Pryor, perhaps.

[beeksc1]

^ Na, man very familiar with Pryor; Seinfeld refers to Richard Pryor as "the Picasso of our profession." Even though Pryor is not my favorite comedian, Pryor is the greatest stand-up because he was a phenomenal story-teller.

Pryor has, "it's a crow, it's a bat, it's super-nigg..

But Pryor nor Paul Mooney has material that illustrate a black brotha who is a racist, simply because he unable to see out of his eyes

[Liszt]

I just googled "beeksc1" and the first link that came up was the UK Drugs Forum. lol.

[Soapy Sam]

No offence is taken by me, I hope you feel the same

Overstanding

Even though it’s pretty clear, you have to look

Let me reiterate,

Maybe the point is that what we do (actions, behaviors, thought patterns) is both insignificant and significant simultaneously.

Can you share other examples where pieces of art satirize themselves?

Exactly, Colbert report is hilarious
His stuff on Wikiality is pretty comical

Not including this thread?

[Piscivore]

Projection? (I only feel obligated to include this kind of input when an individual is looking to exploit, agitate, or design disharmony.) Or if this is off, what is your point for posting as such
www.principiadiscordia.com

Swim is unsure as to how you got that impression. and Swim values a community that engages in intellectual forums. even if all the people cannot entirely agree on all topics; most of the members pursue an approach of agreeableness.
Piscivore suggests "Swim" lay off the pot. "Agreeableness" and intelligence are oft incompatible. If each human being is unique, then in order to be "agreeable" one or both of them must surrender up a little bit of themselves, right?

As Peter Tosh and Marley say,
"we are sick and tired of your -ism schism game."
"Swim is unsure", "Swim values", "Peter Tosh and Marley say"... What does Beeks say?

Eris says:
One day Mal-2 asked the messenger spirit Saint Gulik to approach the Goddess and request Her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly afterwards the radio came on by itself, and an ethereal female Voice said YES?

"O! Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of Discord! Concubine of Confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift a heavy burden from my heart!"

WHAT BOTHERS YOU, MAL? YOU DON'T SOUND WELL.

"I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe."

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO?

"But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it."

OH. WELL, THEN STOP.

At which moment She turned herself into an aspirin commercial and left The Polyfather stranded alone with his species.


That is, there are so many philosophies and ideologies that aim to divide the masses and disenfranchise a person;
How can a person be enfranchised when he is part of a mass?

perhaps, the seasoned posters should welcome the newer members
We do. We have a whole thread for it.

And if you want to that approach; you have the freedom to do so.
If I don't choose that approach, do I lose the freedom to use it?

Other people might suggest an approach that strives to recognize similarities, instead of harping on the differences we share.
Well done. :)

I know that the vast majority of members of this forum are intelligent and have something notable to offer
"thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's ass, therefore remove thine proboscis from it."

[thesyntaxera]

I just googled "beeksc1" and the first link that came up was the UK Drugs Forum. lol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis

Formal thought disorder describes an underlying disturbance to conscious thought and is classified largely by its effects on speech and writing. Affected persons may show pressure of speech (speaking incessantly and quickly), derailment or flight of ideas (switching topic mid-sentence or inappropriately), thought blocking, and rhyming or punning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_thought_disorder#Specific_subtypes_in_detai l

[calebprime]

www.principiadiscordia.com


Piscivore suggests "Swim" lay off the pot.

cp seconds.

[dudalb]

Satire is often misunderstood.
A prime example is the current flap over the New Yorker cover on Obama.

[Cuddles]

I know that the vast majority of members of this forum are intelligent and have something notable to offer

Unfortunately, some of them aren't and don't. Think about it.


Incidentally, are you sure English is your first language?

[beeksc1]

Piscivore suggests "Swim" lay off the pot.



Piscivore suggests "Swim" lay off the pot.
cp seconds.

Hey ya'll, please refrain from false accusations that pertain to cannabis.
How can I lay off the cannabis, when I do not smoke cannabis?

Is making false accusations: against the forum rules?
especially those insinuations that pertain to practices that are "outlawed"?

and please if you are going to refer to the sativa/indica herb; you might want to note it as cannabis. instead of "referencing" the pejorative term, Swim (:D) likes / I like to call it by its accurate name.

Cannabis is benign sounding, just like the herb itself; generally, "pot" carries negative connotations. and plus, it just does not sound intelligent.
green / herb / bud is also neutral...


"Swim is unsure", "Swim values", "Peter Tosh and Marley say"... What does Beeks say?


Man, Swim realizes that most of the perspective that he have to pass on has been uncovered by historic figures that have come before us.

I do not let my "sence of self" interfere with what I have to share; can you relate?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_thought_disorder#Specific_subtypes_in_detai l


Weak.
Projection?

The posters who have nothing to add to the current thread, which concerns satire and how it is used in modern culture / comedy, please refrain from good-for-nothing posts.

Swim thought that derailing a topic opposed the forum rules.

To derail:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/derail


Unfortunately, some of them aren't and don't. Think about it.
Incidentally, are you sure English is your first language?


Swim realizes that all the people who post on the forum are not the most intelligent, quick-witted, and/or wise persons around, even some of the members who have 1,000 / 5,000+ posts; yet most of the people who I enjoy discussions with are well-informed and seekers of truth.

Favorite Composers thread
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=108240

Yea, brother man, English is my first language.

A. Words are tricky
B. Someone who I met (SWIM) does not care to edit his posts.
C. I not take myself too seriously (because then...); nevertheless, I do take myself seriously.

Swim uses the forum to discuss intellectual concerns, move forward his perspective, and engage in endeavors that are meaningful; etc.

Satire is often misunderstood.
A prime example is the current flap over the New Yorker cover on Obama.

McCain denonuces New Yorker's Obama cartoon
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080057294&ch=7/15/2008%2011:09:00%20PM


Republican presidential candidate John McCain has denounced a satirical cartoon on the cover of the New Yorker magazine depicting Barack Obama in Islamic dress beside a burning US flag in the Oval Office though the weekly defended the ''satire'' and ''spirit'' behind the caricature.
...

[Foolmewunz]

Beeks, I speak a few languages and work in a polyglot world over here, but none of them allow me to make a whole lot of sense of what you're saying. Is there a book I could get, something like Teh Bibble Code, that would tell me which words have other meanings, and how many letters to take off of other words?

You keep mentioning satire and then throwing in references to broad-stroke comedians.

I've come equipped, however... you keep tossing out those clay pigeons, and we'll go after 'em. Me and trusty old Paint, here. Always ready to go to the limits in the search of satire.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_110854666253fa7355.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6207)

[beeksc1]

Beeks, I speak a few languages and work in a polyglot world over here, but none of them allow me to make a whole lot of sense of what you're saying.


Oh really? perhaps that is ironic. Swim apologizes that English is filled with idioms.

Just getting back to the topic of satire...

If you are unable to understand / comprehend satirical comedy; just dance instead. (Someone who I met (Swim) has already posted it before.)


You keep mentioning satire and then throwing in references to broad-stroke comedians.


Perhaps, you are off; Just looking to discuss the topic at hand.

Satire!

Swim apologizes that he might often communicate in idioms; but, the language of English is filled with...

terms or phrases whose meaning cannot be deduced from the literal definitions and the arrangement of its parts, but refers instead to a figurative meaning that is known only through common use.

~ Wiki

If a person wants to precisely communicate in English, it is almost impossible to not use the colloquial phrases...

Yea, anyway, Satire...

So, "poking fun" at the relevant topic is ideally supposed to bring about improvement.

South Park
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_park