'Working as Prostitutes'

[Undesired Walrus]

Much has been made in the last year and a half of the BBC referring to the women killed in the Suffolk Murders (Steven Wright has just been found guilty on all counts BTW) as 'all working as prostitutes' rather than '5 prostitutes'.

I always hate a 'policy' in which an organistation must follow the line as to what to call things, but I do not see a problem with this. I actually think it is quite admirable of the BBC, not simply classifying them as 'Prostitutes' but rather this being the line of work they found themselves in.

[Francesca R]

I hadn't noticed this trend. It's actually a bit ironic since prostitution isn't (I think) a legal line of work. So it's a bit like saying petty burglars were "working as thieves".

On one level I agree with you, but on another it seems to legitimise prostitution as "work". (If it was, then I suspect there would actually be no stigma in referring to prostitutes as prostitutes).

[Marquis de Carabas]

Do they apply this to all professions? Is someone a chartered accountant or working as a chartered accountant? If not, then it's just a bit silly.

[Terry]

It isn't illegal to be work as a prostitute in the UK. Unless the law changed recently. It is illegal to "live off imoral earnings" or to run a brothel, or to solicit on the streets, or a lot of other things, however.

[Francesca R]

It isn't illegal to be work as a prostitute in the UK. Unless the law changed recently. It is illegal to "live off imoral earnings" or to run a brothel, or to solicit on the streets, or a lot of other things, however.OK, I don't know the law on this very well so you are probably right.

[Darat]

Do they apply this to all professions? Is someone a chartered accountant or working as a chartered accountant? If not, then it's just a bit silly.

I suspect not but I don't think that makes it silly because of the the stigma related to prostitution. For an example of why I think it is right to try and emphasis that they were not their work, read this piece of spittle from an idiot: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_page_id=1772&in_article_id=423549&in_author_id=322

[Leicontis]

I think the softening of the phrasing probably comes from the fact that bad enough circumstances can sometimes force a woman into selling herself. Based on the phrasing change, I would suspect that these victims were not confirmably career prostitutes, but broke women trying to make ends meet.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I suspect not but I don't think that makes it silly because of the the stigma related to prostitution.
What about the stigma of chartered accountancy?

Seriously, I see your point, but I still think it's silly. Rephrasing is not going to make those wont to see prostitutes as nothing more than their profession any differently. It may be a noble gesture, but it is an empty one.

[fuelair]

What about the stigma of chartered accountancy?

Seriously, I see your point, but I still think it's silly. Rephrasing is not going to make those wont to see prostitutes as nothing more than their profession any differently. It may be a noble gesture, but it is an empty one.In all fairness, it can work - but it takes a while (like a generation or so). And, some really stupid prefer that they not be thought of as people so..... ("Oh, he's only killing prostitutes, no problem then!" Easily moves/expands to "Oh, he's only killing protestants, jews,gays, arabs (pick yours), no problem then!)..
I freely admit that there are those I have that feeling about. Fortunately, mine are limited to terrorists or people performing actions equivalent to terrorists against people other than terrorists or other people acting like terrorists.

[ponderingturtle]

I suspect not but I don't think that makes it silly because of the the stigma related to prostitution. For an example of why I think it is right to try and emphasis that they were not their work, read this piece of spittle from an idiot: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_page_id=1772&in_article_id=423549&in_author_id=322

Interesting comparing them to mother terresa who of course ***** far more people over, and likely did not leave them with the smile on their face that the prosititues did.

[tkingdoll]

I suspect this has changed since the very early days of reporting the murders, as I seem to recall a fair amount of backlash about the media referring to them as prostitutes as though that was their only defining characteristic.

I recall writing a post at the time along the lines of 'if five bakers had been murdered, they would be referred to as the baker murders' or something like that. The media need short headlines and commonality, and these women were all prostitutes. Further than that, though, they were all servicing the murderer and had they not been prostitutes, I imagine they would never have met him. So it is relevant to refer to them as prostitutes.

The 'working as' bit strikes me as PC pandering to mitigate negativity or stigma. I have a little bit of sympathy for it, there is such a thing as a loaded term. For example, the difference between "he's Jewish" and "he's a Jew". Jew is a loaded term, and the media tend to avoid it. "She's a prostitute" suggests that that's all she is, whereas "working as a prostitute" at least gives the impression that these women were something else as well: women, mothers, daughters, friends, they had hobbies and favourite movies, etc. I don't think it's a bad thing to try and get the public to see prostitutes as people. I guarantee that public sympathy for these five women is lower than if it had been five shop assistants. Perhaps the BBC is trying to address that. Apart from anything, it's in their interest to generate as much interest in the story as possible. The more people care about these women, the more they will read about the case.

[Darat]

I think the BBC have this as some form of editorial or style guideline as they reported the funeral of one of the women using the same phrase: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6334743.stm

... The five women, who worked as prostitutes in Ipswich, were all found dead close to the town within a two-week period in December. ...



(And remember "PC" is a strawman created by self-labled right-wing idealogues back in the 70s).

[baron]

I would agree if the five people had been, say, disabled, it would be wrong to keep refering to them as the "five disabled people", but prostitutes? Because they as a group choose to sell sex for money they should be given some special consideration over everyone else? Their profession is what..? Somehow better than mine?

This is pretty much the PC garbage I've come to expect from the BBC, who love to spend our enforced license fee on huddling together in groups, discussing how they can raise their organisation to new heights of simpering inefficiency.

[tkingdoll]

I think the BBC have this as some form of editorial or style guideline as they reported the funeral of one of the women using the same phrase: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6334743.stm

... The five women, who worked as prostitutes in Ipswich, were all found dead close to the town within a two-week period in December. ...



(And remember "PC" is a strawman created by self-labled right-wing idealogues back in the 70s).

Actually, I think they've gone back and edited. I know for sure that they did have 'prostitutes' in the headlines of several stories about these murders. And this one:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6312599.stm has an interesting typo at the start which smacks of haste.

And I also know that they don't use the 'last updated' timestamp to record edits.

ETA: early coverage still has 'prostitutes' in the main story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6210115.stm

and headline: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6189409.stm

So I think that they have changed their reporting style.

[baron]

I don't think it's a bad thing to try and get the public to see prostitutes as people. I guarantee that public sympathy for these five women is lower than if it had been five shop assistants.

Perhaps rightly so. I would feel more sympathy for a mother who was murdered on a family holiday in Brighton than one who left her children to go adventuring in a war zone.

This whole thing is a tragedy, for sure, but I for one don't need smoke blown up my ass by the media in an effort to force me to conform to their idea of a socially acceptable emotional response.

[tkingdoll]

Perhaps rightly so. I would feel more sympathy for a mother who was murdered on a family holiday in Brighton that one who left her children to go adventuring in a war zone.



I think there's something a bit wrong with your reasoning there. Why are the public streets of Ipswich the same as a war zone?

[LTC8K6]

"Working as a prostitute" sounds like you aren't really a prostitute.

An undercover cop might work as a prostitute.

Sounds like an attempt to see with rose colored glasses.

[baron]

I think there's something a bit wrong with your reasoning there. Why are the public streets of Ipswich the same as a war zone?

I think you're taking my analogy a bit too literally.

Being a prostitute is a high risk profession, not by reason of geographical location (unless you happen to sell sex in war zone) but by reason of what the "work" entails.

[Undesired Walrus]

Interestingly enough Radio 4 (so shoot me) had the headline 'Forklift Driver convicted of murdering 5 women working as prostitutes'

I'd like it were somehow made more obvious that people who are not what they work, but 'Hitler killed 6 million people practicising Judaism' may become a bit silly.

[Soapy Sam]

Hitler didn't do it personally.
People working for Hitler did it.

[ponderingturtle]

I think you're taking my analogy a bit too literally.

Being a prostitute is a high risk profession, not by reason of geographical location (unless you happen to sell sex in war zone) but by reason of what the "work" entails.

So when miners, police officers, repossession agent, emergency medical personel, and construction workers it is also not so big a deal because they all chose that line of work?

[Giz]

You mean, wrt http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/7256402.stm:

12 men and women acting as jurors unanimously found the man in the dock as the defendant guilty on all charges, he was then sentenced by a man in a wig acting as a judge and taken from the court by men acting as suffolk police officers.



Quote:

"These appalling crimes left a community, a county and a nation in a state of profound shock"
- Man acting as Det Ch Supt Stewart Gull


I think that, while their hearts are in the right place, this is just feel good semantics that acheives nothing except to make articles longwinded. (Or Perhaps journos are paid by the word?)

[Marquis de Carabas]

Hitler didn't do it personally.
People working for Hitler did it.
People working for a man working as political leader of Germany did it.

[Metullus]

People working for a man working as political leader of Germany a Germanic acting country did it.Fixed.

[Pardalis]

"Working as a prostitute" sounds like you aren't really a prostitute.

Yeah but "turning tricks" sounds like you're a magician, so go figure... ;)

[Luzz]

I think the softening of the phrasing probably comes from the fact that bad enough circumstances can sometimes force a woman into selling herself.

I suppose it is easier to get into bed and let a man do his thing than getting up at 7 am, take a bus and actually work!! Except for children, I don´t think women are forced by circumstances to be prostitutes, at least not in a developed country where there are thousands of jobs.

[Undesired Walrus]

People working for a man working as political leader of a land of mass designated as Germany did it.

Fixed.

[fuelair]

You do not, I must assume live in New York City, Washington,DC, Chicago, Miami, Orlando, Los Angeles, San Francisco or any other metro areas of whose statistics I am aware. There are - for the unskilled, much fewer jobs than unskilled - and women are at the end of the line for a number of the unskilled. Good try, No points!!

To Luzz. Took too long typing

[Undesired Walrus]

I suppose it is easier to get into bed and let a man do his thing than getting up at 7 am, take a bus and actually work!! Except for children, I don´t think women are forced by circumstances to be prostitutes, at least not in a developed country where there are thousands of jobs.

Hmm.. Have you ever lived in Britain?

[ponderingturtle]

You do not, I must assume live in New York City, Washington,DC, Chicago, Miami, Orlando, Los Angeles, San Francisco or any other metro areas of whose statistics I am aware. There are - for the unskilled, much fewer jobs than unskilled - and women are at the end of the line for a number of the unskilled. Good try, No points!!

To Luzz. Took too long typing

So what percentage of unskilled women are employed as prostitues?

[Luzz]

Hmm.. Have you ever lived in Britain?

Yes, I have, for some years. That is the reason why I am saying that no woman in rich countries are really "forced" by circumstances to become prostitutes.
Jobs on fast food chains are always available, and in the worst case scenario, there are public funds to help the unemployment people. They are either lazy or drug addicts (being a junkie is something you chose to be).

[Darat]

Actually, I think they've gone back and edited. I know for sure that they did have 'prostitutes' in the headlines of several stories about these murders. And this one:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6312599.stm has an interesting typo at the start which smacks of haste.

And I also know that they don't use the 'last updated' timestamp to record edits.

ETA: early coverage still has 'prostitutes' in the main story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6210115.stm

and headline: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6189409.stm

So I think that they have changed their reporting style.

The funeral one doesn't seem to have been changed - I'd actually quoted it in a post last year: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2322899#post2322899


Mind you I did hear the BBC Radio 4 news tonight, start their report with "Steve Wright, a forklift driver has been found guilty of....". :)

[Darat]

...snip...

This is pretty much the PC garbage I've come to expect from the BBC, who love to spend our enforced license fee on huddling together in groups, discussing how they can raise their organisation to new heights of simpering inefficiency.

What political point do you think the BBC is trying to make with this phrasing?

[Darat]

Interestingly enough Radio 4 (so shoot me) had the headline 'Forklift Driver convicted of murdering 5 women working as prostitutes'

...snip...

Hadn't read your post when I'd responded to Teek. I noticed that (I think because of this thread).

I'd like it were somehow made more obvious that people who are not what they work, but 'Hitler killed 6 million people practicising Judaism' may become a bit silly.

Taken to extremes trying to be (for want of a better word) sensitive as possible can of course become silly but I don't see anything negative or harmful in this particular instance.

[baron]

So when miners, police officers, repossession agent, emergency medical personel, and construction workers it is also not so big a deal because they all chose that line of work?

Addressing what I believe is the core of your argument rather than the rather obvious straw-man then the answer is sometimes, yes. Selfnessness goes a long way in the sympathy stakes. To use your examples, I'd mourn more for a paramedic who lost his life whilst on duty than a repossession agent, although neither situation is in any way desirable.

What political point do you think the BBC is trying to make with this phrasing?

There isn't one, that's the whole point. Political correctness has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with trying to be seen to be fair to everyone whilst actually achieving precisely the opposite.

[ponderingturtle]

Addressing what I believe is the core of your argument rather than the rather obvious straw-man then the answer is sometimes, yes. Selfnessness goes a long way in the sympathy stakes. To use your examples, I'd mourn more for a paramedic who lost his life whilst on duty than a repossession agent, although neither situation is in any way desirable.


I was listing a group who are more likely to be killed at work than office workers. You totaly ignored the miners as well.

[Undesired Walrus]

They are either lazy or drug addicts (being a junkie is something you chose to be).

In proving that all people are born into the exact same set of circumstances, I would agree with you. Unfortunatly if you get into a drug addiction before the age anyone would expect you to work, you may not view 'Getting off your arse and finding a job' in the same light. Contrary to what some read, this is neither wrong nor right. It just is.

Mr Steve Wright had a job, but found the need to steal money from his workplace to fund his prostitute addiction.

By using the word 'junkie' I suspect I know where you are on the understanding of these issues.

[linusrichard]

I suspect not but I don't think that makes it silly because of the the stigma related to prostitution. For an example of why I think it is right to try and emphasis that they were not their work, read this piece of spittle from an idiot: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_page_id=1772&in_article_id=423549&in_author_id=322
Good Lord.
in the scheme of things the deaths of these five women is no great loss. They weren't going to discover a cure for cancer or embark on missionary work in Darfur.
What a horrible man. I wonder how his cancer-cure labs are progressing with their research.

[ponderingturtle]

What a horrible man. I wonder how his cancer-cure labs are progressing with their research.

But it does suggest an interesting article "Pundit Murdered, Search Continues for Someone Who Cares"

[Undesired Walrus]

What a horrible man. I wonder how his cancer-cure labs are progressing with their research.

Richard Littlejohn is renowned for being a dry tongued rat. I think he may have got fired or 'let go' for this?

[Undesired Walrus]

A further comment for Luzz, it is perhaps worth mentioning the mental health pandemic that sweeps Britain. It's easy to notice two broken legs on the outside, but not on the inside. Because their physical bones are able to work, it does not mean their mind is.

It is speculation that these women had mental health problems, but it is worth noting some of them were feeding a drug addiction. When there is not a doctor to put your minds problems in context, drugs and drink do the job well for the time being.

It may be worth thinking of that if you think 'being a junkie' is a choice in the future, or that it is easy for one to slide the CV under McDonald's front door.

[baron]

You totaly ignored the miners as well.

Who the hell is going to murder a miner at work?

[Luzz]

A further comment for Luzz, it is perhaps worth mentioning the mental health pandemic that sweeps Britain. It's easy to notice two broken legs on the outside, but not on the inside. Because their physical bones are able to work, it does not mean their mind is.

It is speculation that these women had mental health problems, but it is worth noting some of them were feeding a drug addiction. When there is not a doctor to put your minds problems in context, drugs and drink do the job well for the time being.

It may be worth thinking of that if you think 'being a junkie' is a choice in the future, or that it is easy for one to slide the CV under McDonald's front door.

When you become a heroin addict (as many of these women were) I understand you have no many choices to make regarding getting a decent job -even at McDonals. My point is that it is a choice to get into drugs in the first place, as a teenager if you want. This is a problem of developed rich countries, you will not find the same attitude among teenagers in Africa or Asia for example.

[fuelair]

When you become a heroin addict (as many of these women were) I understand you have no many choices to make regarding getting a decent job -even at McDonals. My point is that it is a choice to get into drugs in the first place, as a teenager if you want. This is a problem of developed rich countries, you will not find the same attitude among teenagers in Africa or Asia for example.

You are absolutely right!! Perfect examples here:

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Oct182007/metrothurs2007101731099.asp

http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/89001/1/

http://streetkidnews.blogsome.com/2007/12/


(:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: drug addiction where someone thinks there isn't among teens, etc.)

[luchog]

It may be worth thinking of that if you think 'being a junkie' is a choice in the future, or that it is easy for one to slide the CV under McDonald's front door.

Horsecrap.

Speaking as someone who has a substantial number of junkies, alcoholics, and other drug addicts as relatives, and as someone who has in the past suffered from disabling mental illness (well-controlled now, fortunately); I will categorically state that you're simply spewing a lot of ludicrious whiny-liberal partly-line nonsense.

Being a junkie is most definitely a choice. I found myself in the exact same circumstances as many of my relatives, even worse off than some of them. Unlike them, however, I did not make the choice to "self-medicate" myself into oblivion, and spend my life mooching or stealing from other family members to support a heroin habit. Even when I ended up briefly homeless at one point. I guess you could say I was better off than they were, since I was younger than they were, and therefore had their example shoved in my face as soon as I was old enough to recognize what they were doing, and what it was doing to them. I learned enough from watching my relatives to understand that self-medication at that extreme level was not going to be of any help to me, and I didn't want to end up a useless loser like most of them did (fortunately, one of them, an uncle, has managed to clean himself up and turn his life around; wish I could say the same for my various cousins).

Mind you, I also don't consider prostitution to necessarily be as "negative" as others here clearly do. It's certainly not what I'd consider an ideal career choice; but neither is stripper/"exotic dancer", construction day-labourer, jizz-mopper, migrant farm-worker, assembly-line labourer, or middle-manager. Several of which jobs I've done in the past, as stepping stones to better choices. Like any of those jobs, it's just as much of a choice. I can certainly understand why someone would choose it over ditch-digging, since it requires far less work and pays much better; or middle-management, since it's a far more honorable and worthwhile profession by comparison. I've known several women who worked as escorts, and for them, it was simply a way of making money to improve their lives with (one put herself through school that way; another did so to pay for her fibromyalgia medication).

[luchog]

You are absolutely right!! Perfect examples here:

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Oct182007/metrothurs2007101731099.asp

http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/89001/1/

http://streetkidnews.blogsome.com/2007/12/

Interesting that all your reports focus on street kids in severely economically depressed areas; most of whom have known no other life, and in regions where local politics and culture effectively prevent them from improving their lives. They do not have access to free education or social programs to assist them. In the US, junkies are more typically from working-class or middle-class backgrounds; and degenerate to street-level because of their habits. Even if they're born into desperate poverty, there are always options, there are always social programs and education available. The two situations are not analogous.

[Matteo Martini]

I suspect not but I don't think that makes it silly because of the the stigma related to prostitution. For an example of why I think it is right to try and emphasis that they were not their work, read this piece of spittle from an idiot: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_page_id=1772&in_article_id=423549&in_author_id=322

This littlejohn is an idiot.
I insulted him with a comment which maybe will not be published

[Undesired Walrus]

Horsecrap.

Speaking as someone who has a substantial number of junkies, alcoholics, and other drug addicts as relatives, and as someone who has in the past suffered from disabling mental illness (well-controlled now, fortunately); I will categorically state that you're simply spewing a lot of ludicrious whiny-liberal partly-line nonsense.


Given how I have actually worked for many years with such people, this will not wash with me.

Try not to be so hostile straight of the bat, as it hardly makes the rest of your post open to rational debate.

[Darat]

But it does suggest an interesting article "Pundit Murdered, Search Continues for Someone Who Cares"

Or "Littlejohn murdered - police to interview 60 million suspects"

Richard Littlejohn is renowned for being a dry tongued rat. I think he may have got fired or 'let go' for this?

I don't think so but have to admit I do not follow his career!

[Puppycow]

I hope they extend the same sensitivity to those working as lawyers and those working as politicians. People have to put food on the table, so it's wrong to imply that lawyering or politicianing is something intrinsic to them as a human being. It's a day job. People need to eat and have a roof over their heads.

[fuelair]

Interesting that all your reports focus on street kids in severely economically depressed areas; most of whom have known no other life, and in regions where local politics and culture effectively prevent them from improving their lives. They do not have access to free education or social programs to assist them. In the US, junkies are more typically from working-class or middle-class backgrounds; and degenerate to street-level because of their habits. Even if they're born into desperate poverty, there are always options, there are always social programs and education available. The two situations are not analogous.
Uh, did you possibly note to whom I was responding and what specifically I was responding to. Luzz had stated (period) that teenagers in Africa/Asia did not make decisions to use drugs like those in wealthy countries.Unless Luzz does not mean - due to some inability to be comprehensible -what the line said. I chose my examples based on that one statement.

[Luzz]

fuelair,
When I said "teenagers" I really meant, most teenagers and most people at a young age in rich countries seem to choose experiencing with drugs and later on life many do become drug addicts. luchog got my point and gave an excellent reply to your post.

[ponderingturtle]

Who the hell is going to murder a miner at work?

The issue was phrased as people dieing because their jobs where dangerous.

[baron]

The issue was phrased as people dieing because their jobs where dangerous.

The issue was people being murdered because their jobs put them at increased risk from murderers. Probably. I think I've forgotten.

[gumboot]

Who the hell is going to murder a miner at work?

A vengeful canary?

[gumboot]

To the OP... it seems stupid. People have an issue with prostitution or whatever. Okay. What is "working as prostitute" supposed to achieve. As we see from this Littlejohn fella, the small minded, opinionated, and morally superior people of this world are unlikely to change their attitudes on this basis.

Although as others have demonstrated, if the media applied this methodology across the board it could be quite hilarious.

[ponderingturtle]

The issue was people being murdered because their jobs put them at increased risk from murderers. Probably. I think I've forgotten.

And the arguement was that they chose to work jobs where that was a risk. Why is a risk of murder so different from other risks of death at work?

[baron]

And the arguement was that they chose to work jobs where that was a risk. Why is a risk of murder so different from other risks of death at work?

Well, my argument was actually about murder because that's what the thread's about, but if you want to extend that to any risk at work then my point is still the same; I would tend to have more sympathy for people who work selflessly whilst not indulging in unecessary risk.

[tkingdoll]

To the OP... it seems stupid. People have an issue with prostitution or whatever. Okay. What is "working as prostitute" supposed to achieve. As we see from this Littlejohn fella, the small minded, opinionated, and morally superior people of this world are unlikely to change their attitudes on this basis.

Although as others have demonstrated, if the media applied this methodology across the board it could be quite hilarious.

Don't forget that stories with stronger human interest are more popular. People care more about dead women than dead hookers, and so will read the associated stories.

And sadly, that's all the BBC cares about these days.