Embassies in Belgrade attacked

[Travis]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7256158.stm

It seems that violent mobs (are there any other kind?) in Belgrade have attacked the US, UK, Belgian, Croatian and Turkish diplomatic missions in anger over international recognition of Kosovo as an independent nation.

Now it seems to me that attacking embassies is not the best way to get countries on your side.

[richardm]

After the NATO intervention in Kosovo the Serbs already reckon that nobody's on their side, so I guess they think that smashing the best china is the most appropriate way of expressing their dismay.

Shouldn't be flippant really; they've found a body in the burned out part of the building.

[Francesca R]

The civil violence is bad, but it is not sponsored by the Serbian government, which has also ruled out a military response to Kosovo's declaration of independence.

Condoleeza Rice might once have said these are the "birth pangs" of a new Balkan region.

[Kopji]

Serbia can kiss our ass.

[Ryokan]

Serbia can kiss our ass.

It's been a while since the world saw how barking mad the Serbs are. Good thing they are around to remind us.

[Darat]

Hope it wasn't those violence-crazed Christians causing problems again....

[WildCat]

Now it seems to me that attacking embassies is not the best way to get countries on your side.
It's just the way sophisticated Europeans do things. They like to set things on fire when upset, be it embassies or cars. Oh, and the occassional genocide thrown in for good measure. We Americans should all learn from their example.

[The Don]

I wonder how happy the English would be if an armed international force were brought in to protect the Welsh from English tyranny and then some time later, with that force still in place, Wales were to declare independence (with all that means in terms of risk to the ethnically English population). Are we surprised that they're not exactly delighted with the result ?

(or USA, California and hispanics)

The fragmentation of Serbia is "good" because they are "bad" the fragmentation of our own country less so.

[WildCat]

Hope it wasn't those violence-crazed Christians causing problems again....
Were the riots religiously motivated Darat? I must have missed that part... which Orthodox bishop was fanning the flames?

[WildCat]

I wonder how happy the English would be if an armed international force were brought in to protect the Welsh from English tyranny and then some time later, with that force still in place, Wales were to declare independence (with all that means in terms of risk to the ethnically English population). Are we surprised that they're not exactly delighted with the result ?
It could actually happen, if England suddenly decides to "ethnically cleanse" the Welsh out of Greater England.

But you're right, in the old days a little genocide here and there was considered an internal problem and nobody else's business. The good old days! How we pine for them...

[Darat]

Were the riots religiously motivated Darat? I must have missed that part... which Orthodox bishop was fanning the flames?

Are you saying they weren't Christians?

[WildCat]

Are you saying they weren't Christians?
I'm saying that it is not religiously motivated, unlike what we saw in Denmark and in London over Mohammed cartoons.

You brought up religion, why?

[Darat]

I'm saying that it is not religiously motivated, unlike what we saw in Denmark and in London over Mohammed cartoons.

You brought up religion, why?

Er... you are joking?

[Francesca R]

I'm saying that it is not religiously motivatedOpposition in Serbia to Kosovo independence is not religiously motivated? You are mistaken.

[WildCat]

Er... you are joking?
No, I'm not. These riots have as much to do with religion as your football hooliganism does.

Here's another example - the riots in France by Muslims every few years. Not motivated by religion IMHO, but by socio-economic conditions. In other words, not a religious riot.

You confuse a peripheral fact with the actual meat of the matter - in this case religion with ethnicity.

These riots are tribal, not religious. Maybe that's why the BBC story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7258354.stm) doesn't mention religion at all?

[Francesca R]

These riots are tribal, not religious. Maybe that's why the BBC story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7258354.stm) doesn't mention religion at all?Wrong. It does:

Most Serbs regard Kosovo as their religious and cultural heartland.

[The Don]

Large number of Serbs ticked off because a chunk of their country (which of course they consider their birthright since that day in 1388 or whenever when they stood against the rampaging turk to protect Europe from the evils of Islam) has had a UDI and the rest of the world supports it.

Are you honestly saying that (however unlikely the proposition) if the same situation occurred in our own country (whichever that is) you wouldn't get protests in the streets against the countries deemed responsible ?

Think about it, California not only breaks from the union (with the support of Russia, China and Iran), but adopts a socialist government and immediately forms close links with Venezuela and Cuba. Are you seriously suggesting that the US population would go "aw shucks, never mind" ?

[WildCat]

Here, maybe youtube format will help people understand the difference.

This is a religiously-motivated demonstration:
B_kyNIevsIs

This is an ethnic riot:
Z-5XdsZyGNE

Note that in a religious demonstration the demonstrators often shout (surprise!) religious slogans, and refer constantly to their religion!

The ethnic riot, OTOH, is noticeably absent religious rhetoric but heavy on references to country and flag.

Is this really that hard to understand?

[Wire]

Actually, a bishop of the Orthodox Church has called for full war.
http://www.newkosovareport.com/20080217578/Politics/Serbian-bishop-calls-for-war.html

[fuelair]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7256158.stm

It seems that violent mobs (are there any other kind?) in Belgrade have attacked the US, UK, Belgian, Croatian and Turkish diplomatic missions in anger over international recognition of Kosovo as an independent nation.

Now it seems to me that attacking embassies is not the best way to get countries on your side.
Nobody said they were smart, just violent.

[Francesca R]

Here, maybe youtube format will help people understand the difference. [ . . . ] Is this really that hard to understand?Excuse me. The BBC story you linked does mention religion, doesn't it?

[Wire]

Large number of Serbs ticked off because a chunk of their country (which of course they consider their birthright since that day in 1388 or whenever when they stood against the rampaging turk to protect Europe from the evils of Islam) has had a UDI and the rest of the world supports it.

Are you honestly saying that (however unlikely the proposition) if the same situation occurred in our own country (whichever that is) you wouldn't get protests in the streets against the countries deemed responsible ?

Think about it, California not only breaks from the union (with the support of Russia, China and Iran), but adopts a socialist government and immediately forms close links with Venezuela and Cuba. Are you seriously suggesting that the US population would go "aw shucks, never mind" ?

Peoples have right for self-determination. If the breakaway is based on the democratic will of the overwhelming majority and is further justified by harassment (or genocide) by the central government no-one can morally oppose it.

During 20th century, my country has twice gained independence from an empire and sure, the empire didn't like it neither time.

[WildCat]

Actually, a bishop of the Orthodox Church has called for full war.
http://www.newkosovareport.com/20080217578/Politics/Serbian-bishop-calls-for-war.html
Any evidence that the rioters were religious? Or that this guy was their leader?

[WildCat]

Excuse me. The BBC story you linked does mention religion, doesn't it?
Only peripherally.

I have seen exactly zero news stories claiming the riots were motivated by religion. Maybe you'd like to link to one that attributes religion as the primary force behind the rioting?

[dudalb]

I wonder how happy the English would be if an armed international force were brought in to protect the Welsh from English tyranny and then some time later, with that force still in place, Wales were to declare independence (with all that means in terms of risk to the ethnically English population). Are we surprised that they're not exactly delighted with the result ?

(or USA, California and hispanics)

The fragmentation of Serbia is "good" because they are "bad" the fragmentation of our own country less so.


Gee, I guess the Serbian Ethnic Cleansing in Bosnia and Kosovo seems to have passed The Don by?

As for the Serbs,they seem to have learned nothing and forgotten nothing.

[Darth Rotor]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7256158.stm

It seems that violent mobs (are there any other kind?) in Belgrade have attacked the US, UK, Belgian, Croatian and Turkish diplomatic missions in anger over international recognition of Kosovo as an independent nation.

Now it seems to me that attacking embassies is not the best way to get countries on your side.
Are you referring to the US attack on the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, 1999, whilst bombing Serbia for the greater glory of Muslim Client States on Continental Europe? ;)

Given how the Iranians treated the US embassy in 1979, this is a rather mild reaction on the part of the Serbs. If the Germans, Chinese, Indians, and French had (as part of a multilateral intervention) assisted in the annexation of San Diego County by Mexico, or its split off into the homeland for La Raza, any number of Americans would be doing a bit more than shouting slogans in DC in front of their embassies.

DR

[Wire]

Any evidence that the rioters were religious? Or that this guy was their leader?

No, I didn't intend to claim they were. It was just some news I saw in the web but I think the Serbs are generally quite religious people and declarations by church people are important.

[Darth Rotor]

No, I didn't intend to claim they were. It was just some news I saw in the web but I think the Serbs are generally quite religious people and declarations by church people are important.
Insert the term "nationalistic" for "religious" and your observation would be more accurate. While the religion is an element of Serbian nationalism, it isn't the whole of it.

DR

[dudalb]

I love the way some of the apologists for the Serbs are ignoring the little issue of Genocide.

[Darat]

Insert the term "nationalistic" for "religious" and your observation would be more accurate. While the religion is an element of Serbian nationalism, it isn't the whole of it.

DR

I certainly agree with this but it does irk me that for some reason when the people involved are not "Muslims" more people seem able to recognise that it isn't just a matter of religion and that the situation is complex and there are many factors involved But whenever "Muslims" are involved (or assumed to be) it is just "religiously motivated" and that is it.

[Darth Rotor]

I certainly agree with this but it does irk me that for some reason when the people involved are not "Muslims" more people seem able to recognise that it isn't just a matter of religion and that the situation is complex and there are many factors involved But whenever "Muslims" are involved (or assumed to be) it is just "religiously motivated" and that is it.
It all depends upon how they, the folks raising the ruckus, apply that label themselves, doesn't it?

The cartoon fracas in Denmark transcended a nationalistic border, it was sold as a "Muslim" complaint, for example.

Packaging influences perception.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

I love the way some of the apologists for the Serbs are ignoring the little issue of Genocide.
Are you confusing the Bosnian Serbs with the Serbs of Serbia, or are you referring to the ethnic cleansing attempts of the Kosovars on Serbs in Kosovo in the past few years, since NATO got involved in that parcel of disputed land in 1999?

Milosovic went to the Hague, as did any number of others caught, charged, and tried.

Serbia got bombed for 70+ days by NATO over this.

How much blood do you demand be wrung from this stone? Your implication of eternal collective guilt is disturbing.

DR

[Darat]

It all depends upon how they, the folks raising the ruckus, apply that label themselves, doesn't it?

The cartoon fracas in Denmark transcended a nationalistic border, it was sold as a "Muslim" complaint, for example.

Packaging influences perception.

DR

Again I don't disagree but if we also fall for the "marketing" we'll probably never be able to address the actual issues that are being exploited by people with other agendas. Wildcat mentions an example of this above "the riots in France by Muslims every few years. Not motivated by religion IMHO, but by socio-economic conditions. In other words, not a religious riot." I've seen people on this Forum label that as a "Muslim issue" and ignore all the other issues.

[MothraAttack]

Are you confusing the Bosnian Serbs with the Serbs of Serbia, or are you referring to the ethnic cleansing attempts of the Kosovars on Serbs in Kosovo in the past few years, since NATO got involved in that parcel of disputed land in 1999?

Milosovic went to the Hague, as did any number of others caught, charged, and tried.

Serbia got bombed for 70+ days by NATO over this.

How much blood do you demand be wrung from this stone? Your implication of eternal collective guilt is disturbing.

DR

I figure he meant the relentless and obscene anti-insurgency tactics (read: collective punishment) Milosevic launched in '98. I'm no believer in eternal guilt, and I think most Serbs and President Tadic (and Djindic was getting there before his murder) have gone a long, legitimate way towards reconciliation, but there's sitll one piece of the jigsaw missing:

They need to hand over Mladic and Karadzic.

[Darth Rotor]

They need to hand over Mladic and Karadzic.
That wouldn't hurt, certainly.

DR

[Travis]

Are you referring to the US attack on the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, 1999, whilst bombing Serbia for the greater glory of Muslim Client States on Continental Europe? ;)

Actually I was referring to that. I mean that was a mistake and it really ticked off a lot of Chinese. I can certainly understand why they were angry and the US got a lesson in humility from the whole scenario. Now imagine if that attack had been deliberate and what the implications would have been.

Incidentally I would like to add that there is a world of difference between a deliberate military attack on an embassy and some out of control mob attacking an embassy. Certainly they should have probably had some more police on hand but, unless I find out they purposefully inflamed the crowd, this wasn't really the governments fault.

[gumboot]

It could actually happen, if England suddenly decides to "ethnically cleanse" the Welsh out of Greater England.

But you're right, in the old days a little genocide here and there was considered an internal problem and nobody else's business. The good old days! How we pine for them...


I believe NATO decided that Kosovo was their business when refugees from Kosovo started pouring into NATO countries.

[gumboot]

I certainly agree with this but it does irk me that for some reason when the people involved are not "Muslims" more people seem able to recognise that it isn't just a matter of religion and that the situation is complex and there are many factors involved But whenever "Muslims" are involved (or assumed to be) it is just "religiously motivated" and that is it.


I think a lot of it is to do with how the people with the problem are themselves presenting their case. A lot of the time when those involved are Muslim they make the fact that they're Muslim very clear, and push some sort of religious angle.

Of course the flip side to this is that we only know what the media reports (unless we happen to personally know people involved) and if the media are only showing the ones pushing the religion line, that's all we have to go on.

[Travis]

Large number of Serbs ticked off because a chunk of their country (which of course they consider their birthright since that day in 1388 or whenever when they stood against the rampaging turk to protect Europe from the evils of Islam) has had a UDI and the rest of the world supports it.

Are you honestly saying that (however unlikely the proposition) if the same situation occurred in our own country (whichever that is) you wouldn't get protests in the streets against the countries deemed responsible ?

Think about it, California not only breaks from the union (with the support of Russia, China and Iran), but adopts a socialist government and immediately forms close links with Venezuela and Cuba. Are you seriously suggesting that the US population would go "aw shucks, never mind" ?

Your scenario differs from the one in Kosovo. A better one would be like this:

Let's suppose that a certain Canadian Province was agitating for independence. Now let us suppose that the rest of Canada reacted to this by sending the military into this province to rid it of a certain ethnic population that had been associated with this call for independence. The remainder of Canada says they are justified in doing this because this province happened to have many of the oldest settlements of Canada and could be argued to be the "homeland."

I think outside nations would respond and an intervention force cannot be ruled out. Now once this force is in place should this province again call for independence I think a lot of nations, in light of the attempted ethnic cleansing, would be open to the idea.

[shadron]

Heard an NPR piece yesterday interviewing a Serb newspaperman. He said the people breaking and entering *were* football hooligans (or the rough equivalent). The police were consciously standing back, but his bet is that they wouln't let it get out of control the next time.

See also this, where a couple of Belgrade Bimbo's are watched doing the free shopping thing: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080222/wr_nm/kosovo_serbia_looters_dc_1

It doesn't seem religious, looks more like the LA street riots.

[Ysidro]

It's been a while since the world saw how barking mad the Serbs are. Good thing they are around to remind us.

Hey! My Paternal Grandmother was Serbian by blood!

Oh wait, you're probably right. God bless my ethnic background.

[WildCat]

It doesn't seem religious, looks more like the LA street riots.
By the standards set forth in this thread, the Rodney King riots were Christian riots. As were the riots at the 1968 Democratic Convention. In fact, every riot ever in the US was a Christian riot.

I had no idea there was so much religious strife here!

[Darth Rotor]

I believe NATO decided that Kosovo was their business when refugees from Kosovo started pouring into NATO countries.
Ja, mein freund, und auch mitt Bosnia. ;)

(For all of our German friends: apologies for the crude usage.)

DR

[Darth Rotor]

By the standards set forth in this thread, the Rodney King riots were Christian riots. As were the riots at the 1968 Democratic Convention. In fact, every riot ever in the US was a Christian riot.

I had no idea there was so much religious strife here!
Three words: Phred Pharking Phelps. :p

DR

[dudalb]

I think it is a Ethnic Hatred that has Religon as a form of determining who belongs to the group you hate.
But it is not a case of the Serbs just beating up on Moselms,though. They also beat up on the Croats, who are largely Catholic. Except the Croats were better at fighting back.
The idea that the Milosovic government was not encouraging and fully supporting the Bosnian Serbs is so silly as to be ridiculous. I think I detect a certain "If they were Moselm they had it coming" attitude here.

[gtc]

There is certainly a religious element involved here. This story (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23261344-661,00.html) for instance involves a protest in Melbourne Australia.

From what I have read and observed, religion is one of the elements that are used to define the various nationalities in that region - Greeks and Serbs are Orthodox; Albanians, Turks and Bosnian Muslims are Muslim; Croats are Catholic.

But it is only one of the elements, language and political ideology are also used - Croats are labelled fascist, Serbs are labelled Communist - as well as 'racial' divisions between slavs and others.

I suspect that these differences are used to define the nationalities as they are the only way to divide up groups of people who have intermarried and intermingled for a thousand years.

On the other hand, Islam seems to be used by the angry young men that we observe everywhere from Indonesia to Yorkshire as a way to unite people form wholly different languages, nationalities and social classes.

The only thing that Islamic Rage Boy shares with the people who wave 'Behead the Enemies of Islam' posters in London is their religion. Whereas religion is one of the few things that really divide the second generation Australians of Croatian and Serbian heritage.

P.S. If it needs saying, then the way the Serbian mobs have behaved tells me that Kosova is probably better off on its own.

[Ryokan]

Hey! My Paternal Grandmother was Serbian by blood!

My condolences ;)

[Francesca R]

Only peripherally.Thanks.

[egslim]

Now it seems to me that attacking embassies is not the best way to get countries on your side.
Are you suggesting there is a way for Serbia to get those countries on their side against Kosovarian independence? The way I see it it's a) a lost cause and b) a big mess. These attacks aren't going to make an inch of difference either way.

[Darth Rotor]

Hey! My Paternal Grandmother was Serbian by blood!
Mine as well. She came over on the boat after The Great War. Her husband died thanks to a gas attack on the Eastern Front. He had been conscripted into the Austrian army.

DR

[bigred]

Hope it wasn't those violence-crazed Christians causing problems again....
Yeah yknow how they are. :rolleyes: :cool:

As for ethnicity influences, I'm half German so don't even piss me off.

[Damien Evans]

Mine as well. She came over on the boat after The Great War. Her husband died thanks to a gas attack on the Eastern Front. He had been conscripted into the Austrian army.

DR

Ah, the eastern front. How NOT to run a war. It even made the Western Front look good*.




*In term of organisation etc. Obviously neither was actually good.

[Damien Evans]

Large number of Serbs ticked off because a chunk of their country (which of course they consider their birthright since that day in 1388 or whenever when they stood against the rampaging turk to protect Europe from the evils of Islam) has had a UDI and the rest of the world supports it.

Are you honestly saying that (however unlikely the proposition) if the same situation occurred in our own country (whichever that is) you wouldn't get protests in the streets against the countries deemed responsible ?

Think about it, California not only breaks from the union (with the support of Russia, China and Iran), but adopts a socialist government and immediately forms close links with Venezuela and Cuba. Are you seriously suggesting that the US population would go "aw shucks, never mind" ?

Already happened in Australia. No-one cared. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutt_River_Province

Ok, so it's not quite the same thing...

[WildCat]

Already happened in Australia. No-one cared. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutt_River_Province

Ok, so it's not quite the same thing...
Cool! I'm declaring my property the "Chicago River Province". I am the leader, King WildCat.

It's good to be the king!

[Damien Evans]

Cool! I'm declaring my property the "Chicago River Province". I am the leader, King WildCat.

It's good to be the king!

That's the spirit!:D

[nzric]

If you actually spend some time to talk to a Serb, or a Kosovar, you will quickly tell it's not about religion.

Yes, some of the names they call each other are about religion, but this is only to emphasise the difference between "us" and "them". The content doesn't matter. Many Kosovars also hate Serbs because the stereotype is of psycho heavy metal loving freaks and on the other side the Serb view of Kosovars is weak, dirty Albanian thieves.

You see plenty of burned mosques and churches in that region, but it's just that these buildings are the biggest focal points in most towns. Most Kosovars are "Muslim" in the same way that someone who goes to to church once a year for midnight mass is a "Christian".