I am thinking about creating a site...

[Cain]

I'm thinking about creating a site showing people how to do simple magic tricks Ashes on arm, ambitious card routine, unlinking rubberbands, triumph, one card monte, red hot mama, out of this world, coin matrix, color monte, Daley's last trick, Bertram change and so on and on blah blah blah . All the strong classic tricks I know that don't require special gimmicks or props.

Since I'm rather lazy this is only a pre-preliminary "should-I-do-it?" phase where, I guess, I'm going to consider the arguments and predictable moral outrage from hobbists here. It pisses me off how Penguin shamelessly profits off video downloads of classic effects (probably from kids between 12-16).

I'm sort of agnostic on revealing tricks that require a bought gimmick (coin bite, raven, invisible deck etc.). The main idea, I think, is that you should be able to perform what you know. It's a difficult concept to explain.

Magic is a noble activity because it spreads happiness. A person who only knows the secret and doesn't even try to perform the trick is a greedy waste of space.

I can telegraph the initial objection: ah, but therein lies the contradiction, Cain. By telling others how to do it, they won't try. Nonsense. I think that after a beginner learns the secret for "Out of this World," she'll be interested in adding to her repetoire and progressing up to more difficult magic. Only a person already interested in magic would stumble upon my dull, unassuming geocities site anyway. I'd probably just advertise it on the gaudy message boards populated by teenage boys asking for the secret for a particular effect ("How do you do HeAleD and sEAleD??!!!???)"

[LFTKBS]

I've often wondered why there's such a strong prohibition on the secrets behind magic. Granted, many people make their living performing, but if someone's really interested, they can buy the book or video, which for some reason isn't bad. It's only when they're given away that it's bad.

It's not as if you're offering to show the secrets behind an individual performer's act, just the "generic" tricks.

But I'm not a magician. Maybe it is really a bad, bad, thing to do. But I'd like to know why.

[rustypouch]

I think the difference is that when someone buys a book t learn a trick, he has plans to perform said trick, and is expanding the art, by adding another who is interested.

When people want to be given tricks, it's been my experience that they are too lazy to find it out by themselves, and dislike feeling stupid by being tricked. Afterwards this person will shout the secret while the trick is being performed for someone else, ruining it for them and showing extreme disrespect towards the magician.

[wert]

Originally posted by Cain
I'm thinking about creating a site showing people how to do simple magic tricks Ashes on arm, ambitious card routine, unlinking rubberbands, triumph, one card monte, red hot mama, out of this world, coin matrix, color monte, Daley's last trick, Bertram change and so on and on blah blah blah . All the strong classic tricks I know that don't require special gimmicks or props.

So it's reprehensible if penguin exposes these classics for profit, but it's ok if you do it for free? Or simply because these effects are propless? Do you plan on getting permission from Vernons estate to splash his "triumph" all over the web? Or do you simply not care about such things? Do you plan on having the decency to ask Al Scheider (still living thank you very much) before you splash his brilliant "matrix" all over the web?

Only a person already interested in magic would stumble upon my dull, unassuming geocities site anyway. You understand that google will likely find it eventually? Especially if you "advertise it on the gaudy forums".

I'd probably just advertise it on the gaudy message boards populated by teenage boys asking for the secret for a particular effect ("How do you do HeAleD and sEAleD??!!!???)" [/B]Hm, put a site like that on the messageboards and it'll be really difficult to find eh? You're not doing anyone any favors by exposing stuff on a site without any kind of control in place.

Piss poor idea IMHO.

If you really want to do some good, let the kids know where they can find these effects in books that give them more "bang for their buck" and don't rip them off as penguin does. Simply giving them the classics of magic isn't mystically going to make them appreciate those gems. They'll just collect the secret and amble off, likely never even trying the effects you seem so willing to needlessly expose.

[Cain]

So it's reprehensible if penguin exposes these classics for profit, but it's ok if you do it for free?

Is this supposed to make me sound bad?

Do you plan on getting permission from Vernons estate to splash his "triumph" all over the web?

I hate these type of questions because either a "Yes" or "no" answer is ambiguous. Let me be clear: I do not give a whit about Vernon's (or anybody's) estate.

Do you plan on having the decency to ask Al Scheider (still living thank you very much) before you splash his brilliant "matrix" all over the web?

Another loaded question. The answer is no.

[wert]

Originally posted by Cain

Is this supposed to make me sound bad? I admit there is little need when your own statements already achieve that goal quite admirably? :)

I hate intellectual property

Kind of says it all from your end I guess. It's ok to do for free what you denigrate when done "for profit". IMHO, it's scummy either way.

Let me be clear: I do not give a whit about Vernon's (or anybody's) estate. Pfffft.

Why should we take your criticism of penguin seriously when you want to emulate them with the sole exception that you won't be charging?


Another loaded question. The answer is no. Hm, you rail against penguin for "ripping people off", yet you can't even muster the basic decency to respect a living creator and the fruits of his labor.

No surprises there. :rolleyes:

[LFTKBS]

Whoa. This got intense pretty quickly. I guess I think that tricks should be like books & art, etc. After a certain period of time, they enter the public domain. So I wouldn't advocate revealing any trick created by a living magician, or one in which a decreased performer's estate still has ownership.

But really old ones, owned by no one, I can't see the harm.

[wert]

Some of the effects he so cavilierly wants to distribute are owned by living authors. Others are far from public domain and generate revenue for the living heirs of the creators.

But he "hates intellectual property" so it's all peachy I guess. :rolleyes:

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by LFTKBS
Whoa. This got intense pretty quickly. I guess I think that tricks should be like books & art, etc. After a certain period of time, they enter the public domain. So I wouldn't advocate revealing any trick created by a living magician, or one in which a decreased performer's estate still has ownership.

But really old ones, owned by no one, I can't see the harm.

I agree with the really old tricks. For a field that is against revealing the tricks, there sure are a lot of magic books with 'secrets revealed' etc., in their titles. :)

One can go to the library and learn all the basic tricks, some intermediate ones, and even some fairly complicated ones.

I also think that if one plays around with a deck of cards, some coins, etc., they will naturally develop their own ways of handling them, as well as discover old tricks that are well known.

[fingerjack]

You know, there are so many hundreds of magic websites out there “teaching tricks,” that are not only poor, but the methods are incorrectly taught. It takes a teacher to teach and unless you are proficient as a writer, teacher, and artist it is best not to begin such an endeavor for the sake of the art. Do we really need yet another magic site for those that are too lazy to go to the library or their local bookstore?

I’d feel much better knowing that the teaching is left to people like Henry Hay, Harlan Tarbell, Mark Wilson, Roberto Giobbi, Dai Vervon, Lewis Ganson, Bill Tarr, Jeff McBride, Hugard, Nelms, Lorayne, Bobo, Harris and other professionals. The Internet thus far has in my opinion cheapened and lessened the art of magic by it’s over exposure and never ending barrage of hard learned secrets and methods available to any dolt at the click of a button. I say let those who are really interested make the effort to learn and respect the art (as well as the artists mind you) by exerting a little effort. Great things can’t be bought for small sums, nevermind free. How do we teach beginners to respect the art when it's obvious that so many people who qualify themselves are teachers could care less about giving credit, obtaining persmission, or creating a will and desire to in the student to learn?

[Dave Egleston]

To Cain:

First off, I don't know you nor do I know what your motives for posting such an asinine comment - Perhaps to see what kind of crap you can stir up?

However, If the picture you're using is accurate, I suspect you're just a bitter old man waiting to die - and like so many bitter old men - you want to see how many people you can piss off before you take the eternal dirt nap.

Well you just managed to make a majority of the folks who love magic angry, so you've accomplished your goal. Now do us a favor - go away

Dave

[markb]

The magic community is obsessed with secrecy to the point of lunacy, IMHO. People are capable of deciding for themselves whether they want to know the methods or not. Those who enjoy watching magic performances aren't going to ruin it for themselves by looking up the secrets. And those who don't enjoy magic, who cares? It's just like the plot of a movie. I could easily find out the ending to any movie before I see it, but I choose not to.

Originally posted by Cain
A person who only knows the secret and doesn't even try to perform the trick is a greedy waste of space.

I've got to take issue with this. I know the secrets to lots of tricks, simply because I've figured them out. Most tricks are pretty easy to figure out, especially after seeing them a few times.

[Cain]

Mark:
I've got to take issue with this. I know the secrets to lots of tricks, simply because I've figured them out. Most tricks are pretty easy to figure out, especially after seeing them a few times.

That's a perspective I'd readily concede does not instantiate the type of person railed against. Specificially, I'm criticizing the person who does not appreciate the trick for it's cleverness. He wants to know it just to know it.

I created this thread expecting hysterical comments:

However, If the picture you're using is accurate, I suspect you're just a bitter old man waiting to die - and like so many bitter old men - you want to see how many people you can piss off before you take the eternal dirt nap.

I'm seventy-four years old. Learn to respect your elders, son. That picture is taken off the back of my 40th book, _The Fateful Triangle_. :rolleyes:

Well you just managed to make a majority of the folks who love magic angry, so you've accomplished your goal. Now do us a favor - go away.

Thanks for your, uh, enlightening perspective.

____________________________
Now there's hysterical and "oh-my-god-I-can't-believe-he-just-said-that" hysterical. Here's a fair representative of the latter:

[quote]Hm, you rail against penguin for "ripping people off", yet you can't even muster the basic decency to respect a living creator and the fruits of his labor.

No surprises there.

I also download mp3s. If magic is a fundamentally noble profession, and I think it is, then the purpose of performing and teaching tricks is to spread joy, not to turn a profit.

(comments taken out of order)

Why should we take your criticism of penguin seriously when you want to emulate them with the sole exception that you won't be charging?

There are obvious differences between my motives and penguin's. You can't content yourself with regarding these efforts as misguided -- no, they're EVIL. Wicked. "Scummy." Again, I perfectly expected these kind of lunatic knee-jerk reactions.
_____________________________

You know, there are so many hundreds of magic websites out there �teaching tricks,� that are not only poor, but the methods are incorrectly taught. It takes a teacher to teach and unless you are proficient as a writer, teacher, and artist it is best not to begin such an endeavor for the sake of the art. Do we really need yet another magic site for those that are too lazy to go to the library or their local bookstore?

A considerate, thoughtful criticism that ultimately hinges on how well the tricks how the site turns out. If my previous explanations to others are any indication, I think I'll do okay. The impetus for the creation of such a site comes in part *from* all the other ones that do a poor job of explaning the illusion.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Cain
I also download mp3s. If magic is a fundamentally noble profession, and I think it is, then the purpose of performing and teaching tricks is to spread joy, not to turn a profit.


Non sequitur. I think medicine is a fundamentally noble profession, but I still think that doctors are entitled to charge for their services. Your site is not about performing or teaching magic (as opposed to 'tricks'), it is simply exposure of methods.

At any rate, I disagree that it is your call; I don't feel that it is your call to say whether the creators and owners of various effects should be compensated. Similar arguments have already been run into the ground over MP3's, though at least those people get to talk about the evils of the RIAA, as opposed to how they don't care about compensating the authors of a given effect (or their estate).

N/A

[Cain]

Non sequitur. I think medicine is a fundamentally noble profession, but I still think that doctors are entitled to charge for their services. Your site is not about performing or teaching magic (as opposed to 'tricks'), it is simply exposure of methods.

False analogy. I think magicians are perfectly within their rights to charge for their services. Doctors supposedly enter into medicine to help others. If an M.D. has devised a clever, cheap, easy method to save people from a nasty disease (say), I see nothing wrong with others spreading that knowledge. Of course, the analogy could possibly breakdown at some point because in medicine a bit of knowledge can be a very dangerous thing (non-experts may unintentionally do more harm). Magic, thankfully, isn't a matter of life and death -- although the two professions once over-lapped in the not so recent past, and still even today (though "alternative" therapies are rightly marginalized).

[homunculus]

I'm not going to moralize with you Cain. If you "don't give a whit about Vernon's (or anyone else's) estate", then why not go ahead and do it? If you don't give a whit, why even bother asking us whether we thought you "should"?

Paul.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Cain


False analogy. I think magicians are perfectly within their rights to charge for their services. Doctors supposedly enter into medicine to help others. If an M.D. has devised a clever, cheap, easy method to save people from a nasty disease (say), I see nothing wrong with others spreading that knowledge.

My analogy is just as valid as your original point about magic being a "noble profession," therefore the originators of new effects have essentially no right to make money off their efforts -- and make no mistake, taking their efforts and ideas and offering them for free deprives them of potential income.

If you want something closer akin to the intellectual property field, take writing, which seems to be as noble as magic (however the term noble is interpreted). As you have no like for intellectual property laws, I assume that you have no problem with taking living author's works and publishing them in toto on the web for anyone to download and read -- since that spreads knowledge and entertainment?

N/A

[Cain]

If you want something closer akin to the intellectual property field, take writing, which seems to be as noble as magic (however the term noble is interpreted). As you have no like for intellectual property laws, I assume that you have no problem with taking living author's works and publishing them in toto on the web for anyone to download and read -- since that spreads knowledge and entertainment?

The creation of intellectual property -- temporary government granted monopolies on ideas -- is utilitarian in intent.* I have absolutely no objection to making the ideas of dead people freely available. We may Love Dai Vernon, John Lennon and many other creative individuals, but f*ck their estates. Intellectual copyrights have spiraled out of control that the heirs of creators can now profit off the labor of their parents. Ridiculous. The Constitution originally restricted copyrights to one 14 year term, and renewable for only one more 14 year term.


Yes, I generally hate intellectual property, but I also recognize very temporary grants as necessary under our current political/economic system (a system I find morally abhorrent in many ways). So sure, the works of writers being made readily available on the Internet probably diminishes incentive to write books. However, this whole "depriving people" of income canard, seemingly based on an almost of natural right to exclusive ownership of ideas, is absurd.

My website will reach only people interested in magic. It's not like a column in the NYT exposing a new trick every week to an indifferent lay audience.


*I'm speaking of the United States and our Constitution. European intellectual property law, I believe, diverges quite a bit in some ways.

_______________________________

I'm not going to moralize with you Cain. If you "don't give a whit about Vernon's (or anyone else's) estate", then why not go ahead and do it? If you don't give a whit, why even bother asking us whether we thought you "should"?

I did not anticipate vehement arguments on this point. In my opinion, there are far better arguments against the creation of such a site. This thread exists to cover and explore aspects I have not yet considered. Maybe there's a compelling reason for not putting up the proposed page. I find the intellectual property angle unpersuasive, however.

Fingerjack's objections, for example, are worth serious consideration. But given the multimedia capabiliteis of the web, I think the newer technology has a pedagogical tool is superior to any book.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Here are a few thoughts from an interested non-magician.

Firstly, I get the distinct impression that the people who cry the loudest about revealing secrets are the people who have already paid through the nose for them.

Secondly, I'm unimpressed with the argument that if you put the secret on the internet, then idiots will spoil people's acts. A professional performer should be able to deal with a heckler who knows how to do the kinds of old, simple tricks Cain proposes to teach.

Thirdly, putting knowledge on the internet is a good thing. Don't bore me with sob stories about how Snopes.com puts people who publish books about urban legends out of business, or how gardening sites put professional gardeners out of business. We are all better off if more knowledge is available to more people more easily.

I can't see a site like Cain's putting any professional performers out of business.

:rolleyes:

A disclaimer on the site indicating these concerns wouldn't go astray, though. Something like "Don't click here if you don't want to spoil your own fun. The secrets are all terribly banal once you know them. Click here only if you honestly plan to practice these tricks for hours and hours until you can do them without looking like an idiot".

[fingerjack]

Kevin,

I agree with several of your points but I feel obliged to comment on a few of them. You being a non magician, I can see why you may think you have some valid arguments. But after seeing a whole lot of bad magic over the years (through fifteen years or performing and working in a magic shop) and carefully tracing a large percentage of it back to the Internet, I am convinced that as far as the art of magic goes, the Internet has done little to help it progress. In fact, while some could optimistically say that there are indeed good things to come out of the information age in regards to our art, it can also be said that it has done more to destroy it.

"Firstly, I get the distinct impression that the people who cry the loudest about revealing secrets are the people who have already paid through the nose for them."

While that may be true in some cases (and understandably frustrating), there is also not much that Cain said he would reveal that is of any great consequence to any performing magician. Most of the effects that he described can be found free at your local library or for fewer than ten dollars. The difference? Not just any schmoe can write a book, get it published and distributed. Any one can build a website. Hell, I’m proof and I don’t even know what HTML stands for.

"Secondly, I'm unimpressed with the argument that if you put the secret on the internet, then idiots will spoil people's acts. A professional performer should be able to deal with a heckler who knows how to do the kinds of old, simple tricks Cain proposes to teach."

I’m not sure who had this concern, but it’s not one of mine. Although I can tell you that an idiot can spoil a person’s act, regardless how professional or what type of audience management skills the performer may have. It doesn’t happen often, but it can happen. And even if you don’t lose any face over the incident or even handle it gracefully, it doesn’t mean an effect can’t be ruined. I (and many others) performed the twisting arm illusion with great success for years before David Blaine did it on TV and the armies of Blaine wannabees exploited it and revealed it all over the Internet as well as television. I stopped doing it when kids at shows where coming up to me and SHOWING ME THE EFFECT!

"Thirdly, putting knowledge on the internet is a good thing. Don't bore me with sob stories about how Snopes.com puts people who publish books about urban legends out of business, or how gardening sites put professional gardeners out of business. We are all better off if more knowledge is available to more people more easily."

Yes, I don’t suppose anyone would deny the fact that putting knowledge on the Internet is a good thing. What you didn’t happen to mention is that putting inaccurate or false information, misinformation, or plain flat out lies on the Internet is not such a good thing, and the Internet is rife with it (no one can deny that). I can’t tell you how many magic websites I have visited where an obviously bored person, even meaning well, wants to share his enthusiasm for the magic art but lacked the skills and resources to covey the information correctly. While there are some great sites out there, there are also some horrible ones, some only trying to cash in on the magic fad that exploded thanks to the Internet. What do you say when the ancient “folding coin,” is now known to millions as the “Blaine bite quarter,” or that I see dozens of kids at conventions performing hot shot cuts but don’t know what a double lift is? The recent attitude of not crediting the creators of effects because no one cares is not only disrespectful, but just plain sad. Would you teach or perform Fur Elise on the piano and claim it to be your own without mentioning Beethoven? Knowing where the Elmsley count came from and who invented the Han Pin Cheng are important, especially if one who wishes to truly learns magic wants to take it seriously.

I can't see a site like Cain's putting any professional performers out of business.

I agree. It won’t. Neither will the four TV specials that exposed magic for minimal ratings or the books that tried to cash in on the same fad. But I have to ask you…Do you know Cain? Have you seen him perform? Can you recommend him as a teacher of a secretive art (that coincidentally thrives on secrecy, not free exposure on the Internet) and be confidant that he is going to teach the effects with the thought and reason they deserve? No offense Cain, you may very well be a skilled artist and writer, but how is the person the wanders on your site (or any site) going to know the difference? I have seen in one evening of surfing more poor advice, half baked tricks, and sloppy flourishes on the Internet that I have seen at a three day magic conference….and to think it's all a click away. I still maintain that we should leave the teaching to the pros. No ten year old today is going to go the book store and buy a book from a professional writer and teacher. Instead, he is going to type m-a-g-i-c into Google and click on the first things that come up. God hope it’s not some of the sites that I have seen. I truly feel as though our art deserves better than that.

[Kevin_Lowe]

Originally posted by fingerjack
Kevin,
But after seeing a whole lot of bad magic over the years (through fifteen years or performing and working in a magic shop) and carefully tracing a large percentage of it back to the Internet, I am convinced that as far as the art of magic goes, the Internet has done little to help it progress.


Better web sites might well be the solution, then. Who knows? Maybe in ten years time you'll be seeing a whole lot of good magic from the internet.

In any case, Cain is just making available stuff that everyone admits you can get from a library book.


And even if you don’t lose any face over the incident or even handle it gracefully, it doesn’t mean an effect can’t be ruined. I (and many others) performed the twisting arm illusion with great success for years before David Blaine did it on TV and the armies of Blaine wannabees exploited it and revealed it all over the Internet as well as television. I stopped doing it when kids at shows where coming up to me and SHOWING ME THE EFFECT!


There was a thread on this very effect not long ago, where many people agreed that this effect was just not that hard to figure out.

Blame Blaine for being popular and highly visible if you must. Any really simple trick that gets overexposed is likely to wear out its welcome.

I still maintain that we should leave the teaching to the pros.

Pay a pro to give you lessons if you want, or go the cheap way and practice internet effects in front of a mirror. Either way you get what you pay for.

We are past the days when things were handed down in secret over seven year apprenticeships.

[slimshady2357]

I don't understand most of the objections....

Everyone readily admits that this info is available at most libraries.

Therefore, besides fingerjack's objection, all the other arguments come down to 'if the person looking it up is too lazy to go down to the library and get this information for free, I don't think they deserve to get it for free online'.

huh? :confused:

Adam