Are Jews for Jesus.....still Jews??

[Thunder]

According to Jewish law, any person born of a Jewish mother is a Jew. According to Israel's law of return, anyone who has one single Jewish grandparent, male or female, can come to Israel.

Most Jews consider secular Jews, Communist Jews, atheist Jews, to still be Jewish. But a Jew who has both a Jewish mother and Jewish father who converts to Christianity is no longer a Jew? What is the logic behind this concept? How can someone still be considered a Jew if they are communist, atheist, or secular..but not if they choose Christianity?

Is there anything written in the Talmud about this?

[drkitten]

Most Jews consider secular Jews, Communist Jews, atheist Jews, to still be Jewish. But a Jew who has both a Jewish mother and Jewish father who converts to Christianity is no longer a Jew? What is the logic behind this concept? How can someone still be considered a Jew if they are communist, atheist, or secular..but not if they choose Christianity?

Because neither communism, atheism, nor secularism is a relgion, while Christianity is. Similarly, a Jew who actively converts to Shinto or Islam would no longer be a Jew, but a Jew who roots "religiously" for the Dallas Cowboys would merely be misguided.

[RecoveringYuppy]

Are Jews for Jesus.....still Jews??

Your question implies that they ever were. "Jews for Jesus" accepts people who were never Jewish. Basically "Jews for Jesus" is a lie.

[Darth Rotor]

Your question implies that they ever were. "Jews for Jesus" accepts people who were never Jewish. Basically "Jews for Jesus" is a lie.
Could you please expand upon this? Are you saying no Jews ever joined into "Jews for Jesus" and that its name has nothing to do with Jews?

DR

[RecoveringYuppy]

Could you please expand upon this? Are you saying no Jews ever joined into "Jews for Jesus" and that its name has nothing to do with Jews?
I'd guess some former Jews belong to the organization but my point is that they have no requirement that members be former Jews. On the "get involved" section of their website you will find them actively recruiting "Gentiles". Their full time missionary position requires that someone be "Jewish believer in Jesus" but mentions no requirement that the person be a former religious Jew (not to mention that the phrase is self contradictory in a religious interpretation). Try to find anything Jewish at their website:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/

Their name is more about who they are proseletyzing, not who they are.

[A Christian Sceptic]

For my cultural anthropology class I did a paper on Messianic Jews:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

[Tricky]

Ethnically/culturally, yes. Religiously, no.

[Thunder]

ok, so, why is it ok for a Jew to be a avowed atheist, who disavows God and all things religous, but its not ok for him to be a christian?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I'd consider a Jew who converted to Christianity or was raised Christian a Jew. They would still be ethnically Jewish- even though most Jews I know deny that Judaism is a ethnicity and insist that it's a religion.

To the best of my knowledge, the Nazis indentified a Jew as anyone who had a Jewish grandparent and converts to Christianity were spared at first but then treated like all the rest. There's at least one known case of the Nazis deporting and killing a Roman Catholic nun, Sister Edith Stein, who had been born Jewish but had converted as an adult and was later canonized as a saint...not that Hitler is now the chief authority on who is or isn't a Jew.

[drkitten]

ok, so, why is it ok for a Jew to be a avowed atheist, who disavows God and all things religous, but its not ok for him to be a christian?

If you ask the same question twice, you will get the same answer twice. See post #2.


Because neither communism, atheism, nor secularism is a relgion, while Christianity is. Similarly, a Jew who actively converts to Shinto or Islam would no longer be a Jew, but a Jew who roots "religiously" for the Dallas Cowboys would merely be misguided.

[~enigma~]

ok, so, why is it ok for a Jew to be a avowed atheist, who disavows God and all things religous, but its not ok for him to be a christian?
Parky, read the text regarding the law of return CAREFULLY. Belief is NOT a factor and a jew will qualify for citizenship regardless of their beliefs. The only problem is a jew is no longer considered a jew (for the law of return) IF THEY WERE BAPTIZED which essentially is a denouncement of their jewishness. A "gentile" that is christian and has been baptized will still qualify under the law of return (provided they have a jewish grandparent).

ETA - And it is not "can come to Israel", it is automatic citizenship.

[fuelair]

According to Jewish law, any person born of a Jewish mother is a Jew. According to Israel's law of return, anyone who has one single Jewish grandparent, male or female, can come to Israel.

Most Jews consider secular Jews, Communist Jews, atheist Jews, to still be Jewish. But a Jew who has both a Jewish mother and Jewish father who converts to Christianity is no longer a Jew? What is the logic behind this concept? How can someone still be considered a Jew if they are communist, atheist, or secular..but not if they choose Christianity?

Is there anything written in the Talmud about this?Technically, if their mother was, they are. For the "chose to convert" (to Judaeism), may be quibbles.

[gtc]

The issue boils down to how you define a Jew.

Is it a religion? In which case Jews for Jesus are not Jewish.

Is it a race/ethnicity? If so, they are Jewish.

Is it a culture? If so, then it would depend on which cultural elements are considered necessarily Jewish and which ones the Jews for Jesus observe. I suspect you would have more definitions of what it means to be culturally Jewish than there are Jews.

[~enigma~]

The issue boils down to how you define a Jew.

Is it a religion? In which case Jews for Jesus are not Jewish.

Is it a race/ethnicity? If so, they are Jewish.

Is it a culture? If so, then it would depend on which cultural elements are considered necessarily Jewish and which ones the Jews for Jesus observe. I suspect you would have more definitions of what it means to be culturally Jewish than there are Jews.
A jew is not defined by their beliefs. As has been mentioned earlier there are many jews that are athiests. There are jews that run the gamut from wicca to islam and they are still jews. For that matter some jews believed that Rebbe Schneerson was messiah yet they are still jews (albeit really strange). A jew that is a christian is in my opinion still a jew but my opinion neither matters for the law of return nor do I find fault with Israel's choice.

[gtc]

A jew is not defined by their beliefs.

I agree, I just wanted to cover all bases as discussions such as these often flounder because the different points of view use different definitions.

[86kam]

In regard to a Jew that turns to Christianity, Jewish religious belief/doctrine does not recognize Jesus as the messiah, nor his divinity. In fact, the idea of a messiah in respect to Judaism was to be a great leader, but human, and not derived from the divine. It is believed that the messiah has not appeared yet.
Therefore if a Jew converts to Christianity, thus believing that Jesus is the divine and messiah, said Jew no longer follows the Judaic belief/doctrine, therefore not considered a Jew. This is a major sticking point in regard to Christianity vs Judaism.

It might be hard for some to grasp the idea of an atheistic Jew (Jews are still supposed to believe in a god). My take on it, if I'm not mistaken, is that some Jews regard themselves as Jewish in ethnic terms, not based solely on religious grounds, so even though one may be atheistic, they still maintain their Judaic identity.

[Darth Rotor]

In regard to a Jew that turns to Christianity, Jewish religious belief/doctrine does not recognize Jesus as the messiah, nor his divinity. In fact, the idea of a messiah in respect to Judaism was to be a great leader, but human, and not derived from the divine. It is believed that the messiah has not appeared yet.
Therefore if a Jew converts to Christianity, thus believing that Jesus is the divine and messiah, said Jew no longer follows the Judaic belief/doctrine, therefore not considered a Jew. This is a major sticking point in regard to Christianity vs Judaism.

It might be hard for some to grasp the idea of an atheistic Jew (Jews are still supposed to believe in a god). My take on it, if I'm not mistaken, is that some Jews regard themselves as Jewish in ethnic terms, not based solely on religious grounds, so even though one may be atheistic, they still maintain their Judaic identity.
Some call that trying to have it both ways, but then again, if you choose your group identity, you can, I suppose, self-classify however you wish. What is so often confusing is the usage of "Jew" in disparate contexts without clarifying the sense.

DR

[~enigma~]

Therefore if a Jew converts to Christianity, thus believing that Jesus is the divine and messiah, said Jew no longer follows the Judaic belief/doctrine, therefore not considered a Jew. This is a major sticking point in regard to Christianity vs Judaism. Not true. Baptism is the problem when a person born a jew is the recipient. Belief in the messiah is NOT a requirement of being a jew no matter if one believes he (or she) came, wil come or is here. If what you say were true then every Lubavitcher that believed Rebbe Schneerson was messiah would no longer be considered a jew.

ETA - I have discussed this with a few Rabbis at the Chabad locally and they say christianity is fine - for gentiles.

[86kam]

Therefore if a Jew converts to Christianity, thus believing that Jesus is the divine and messiah, said Jew no longer follows the Judaic belief/doctrine, therefore not considered a Jew. This is a major sticking point in regard to Christianity vs Judaism.Not true. Baptism is the problem when a person born a jew is the recipient. Belief in the messiah is NOT a requirement of being a jew no matter if one believes he (or she) came, wil come or is here.
Reread what you have quoted me, and your response. Belief in a messiah may not be a requirement of being a Jew, but it IS for a Christian. One either believes in Jesus' divinity or not.
Would you say that a Jew who becomes a Christian, believing in Jesus as the messiah and his divinity, is still a Jew?
If one is baptized into Christianity, then they are considered Christian not a Jew.
Perhaps not all Jews may believe in some kind of messiah, but the idea of messiah, or Moshiach/Mashiach to be precise, is still a part of Judaic religious doctrine. And it ain't Jesus.

I have discussed this with a few Rabbis at the Chabad locally and they say christianity is fine - for gentiles.
Correct, for gentiles and Christians, are NOT considered Jews.

[~enigma~]

Reread what you have quoted me, and your response. Belief in a messiah may not be a requirement of being a Jew, but it IS for a Christian. One either believes in Jesus' divinity or not.
Would you say that a Jew who becomes a Christian, believing in Jesus as the messiah and his divinity, is still a Jew?
If one is baptized into Christianity, then they are considered Christian not a Jew.
Perhaps not all Jews may believe in some kind of messiah, but the idea of messiah, or Moshiach/Mashiach to be precise, is still a part of Judaic religious doctrine. And it ain't Jesus.
Ok. Would you like the phone number of the local Chabad here so you can tell their Rabbis that they are liars? First off gentile christians do believe (for the most part) in the divinity of jesus. Jews that actually believe as christians (meaning in jesus divinity) are NOT messianic jews they are christians. Messianic jews do not believe jesus is divine. He is thought of as fully human and a "representative" of god (who I now name Judy). As to what I feel about them, read the thread because I am not repeating myself.

ETA - Are you going to answer my question? Are the Lubavitchers that belived Rebbe Schneerson was messiah, are they jews?

[86kam]

Ok. Would you like the phone number of the local Chabad here so you can tell their Rabbis that they are liars? First off gentile christians do believe (for the most part) in the divinity of jesus. Jews that actually believe as christians (meaning in jesus divinity) are NOT messianic jews they are christians. Messianic jews do not believe jesus is divine. He is thought of as fully human and a "representative" of god (who I now name Judy). As to what I feel about them, read the thread because I am not repeating myself.

ETA - Are you going to answer my question? Are the Lubavitchers that belived Rebbe Schneerson was messiah, are they jews?

For you:

http://web2.uvcs.uvic.ca/elc/studyzone/330/reading/index.htm

[~enigma~]

For you:

http://web2.uvcs.uvic.ca/elc/studyzone/330/reading/index.htm
No answer? Why not?

[hgc]

This isn't so hard to figure out. Jewishness is an ethnicity, tribal and inherited. Judaism is a religion.

As to who is qualified to be of what religion, it's impossible to determine. Religious belief is entirely subjective. The Israeli Law of Return is hardly the final word on the matter, and nor was it ever meant to be. It's merely the guidelines under which the state will grant citizenship to those who want to claim it as a Jew.

I still want to know why, parky76, you ever thought that communism, of all things, was some kind of disqualifier for a Jew. Some of our greatest commies have been Jews - Leon Bronstein (Trotsky), Rosa Luxemburg, Isaac Babel. Hey! Did you know that laissez-faire capatalists can't be Bhuddist? It's inconceivable! Ever met a fascist Zoroastrian? I think not!

[Thunder]

if jewishness is an ethnicity, and is not defined by ones beliefs, then how can one convert to being jewish?

if an irish catholic converts to judaism...are they now jewish and not irish? this is weird.

[Ryokan]

Hey! Did you know that laissez-faire capatalists can't be Bhuddist?

Hello :)

[Darth Rotor]

This isn't so hard to figure out. Jewishness is an ethnicity, tribal and inherited. Judaism is a religion.
Try this from another angle: it's about nationalism. A nation, a people, is a fusion of culture, blood, and sometimes religion.

This makes Hitler a bit of a copy cat, with his Aryan nationalism, doesn't it? A copy cat of the Jews.

I find that droll.

DR

[Sunni Man]

There is also an organization called "Jews for Allah".

What if a Jew converts to Islam and becomes a Muslim?

[~enigma~]

if jewishness is an ethnicity, and is not defined by ones beliefs, then how can one convert to being jewish?

if an irish catholic converts to judaism...are they now jewish and not irish? this is weird.
According to jewish law they are a jew and a follower of JUDAISM. According to common sense and logic, of which you are lacking both in this thread, they are still IRISH.

[chris epic]

Jewish implies religion
Hebrew implies their ethnicity.

Remember that the Hebrews organized a theocratic state, so it is no wonder that, even today, "Jew" can be just as ethnic as "Hebrew."

Hebrews can both ethnically be Jewish and Hebrew.

Jewish converts that are not Hebrew can never be ethnically Jewish, only religiously.

And good luck in anyone, even a Hebraic Jew, trying to tell a Hebraic Christian that they aren't a Jew, because they are, but only ethnically.

[firecoins]

I am a Jew for nothing. Am I still a Jew?

[~enigma~]

I am a Jew for nothing. Am I still a Jew?
Only every other Thursday if you wear a fur hat :)

[hgc]

if jewishness is an ethnicity, and is not defined by ones beliefs, then how can one convert to being jewish?

if an irish catholic converts to judaism...are they now jewish and not irish? this is weird.


A person can "convert" to the Jewish religion - Judaism - by professing the belief, performing whatever required rituals, and being accepted according to whatever guidelines the rabbi in question adheres to. (This usually involves ritualistically being turned down the first two times, and then being accepted on the third - just to be sure you really mean it.) As for being ethnically Jewish, think adoption. Maybe not by blood, but perhaps by ethnic self-identification and community acceptance.

[Thunder]

hebrew and jewish are the same thing.

[~enigma~]

hebrew and jewish are the same thing.
So your OP wasn't a question...it was more of a it's how I say regardless of what anyone tells me. Bit close minded and bullheaded don't you think?

[godless dave]

Therefore if a Jew converts to Christianity, thus believing that Jesus is the divine and messiah, said Jew no longer follows the Judaic belief/doctrine, therefore not considered a Jew. This is a major sticking point in regard to Christianity vs Judaism.

I imagine the other major sticking is the way Christians have treated Jews over the last 1500 years or so.

[JoeEllison]

To me, this sort of discussion shows an aspect of why I consider religion to be silly and delusional. :rolleyes:

[godless dave]

Try this from another angle: it's about nationalism. A nation, a people, is a fusion of culture, blood, and sometimes religion.

This makes Hitler a bit of a copy cat, with his Aryan nationalism, doesn't it? A copy cat of the Jews.


The Jews weren't the first or only nation to fuse their ethnic identity with their religious beliefs and practices.

[billiefan2000]

ok, so, why is it ok for a Jew to be a avowed atheist, who disavows God and all things religous, but its not ok for him to be a christian?

parky makes a good point



plus wasnt Jesus a Jewish rabbi

and werent most of the early church and most of the apostles were Jewish followers of Jesus

[~enigma~]

parky makes a good point



plus wasnt Jesus a Jewish rabbi

and werent most of the early church and most of the apostles were Jewish followers of Jesus
Did you read the thread?

[Thunder]

if someone born of a jewish mother, who on a daily bases curses the talmud, spits on the hebrew bible, and loaths the name of God, is STILL considered a Jew.....then a Jew who converts to Christianity should still be considered a Jew aswell.

contrary to popular belief, Judaism and Christianity are NOT polar opposites. judaism existed long before christianity, still exists today, and will still exist if all christians disapeared.

[~enigma~]

if someone born of a jewish mother, who on a daily bases curses the talmud, spits on the hebrew bible, and loaths the name of God, is STILL considered a Jew.....then a Jew who converts to Christianity should still be considered a Jew aswell.

contrary to popular belief, Judaism and Christianity are NOT polar opposites. judaism existed long before christianity, still exists today, and will still exist if all christians disapeared.
Ok...go put forth your opinion to the people that formulated the law of return. If you aren't going to do that does that mean your idiotic drivel is anti-semitic?

ETA - they aren't opposite? You really need to visit a jewish synagogue.

[hgc]

if someone born of a jewish mother, who on a daily bases curses the talmud, spits on the hebrew bible, and loaths the name of God, is STILL considered a Jew.....then a Jew who converts to Christianity should still be considered a Jew aswell.

contrary to popular belief, Judaism and Christianity are NOT polar opposites. judaism existed long before christianity, still exists today, and will still exist if all christians disapeared.


Considered to be a Jew by whom? For what purpose? Unless there is a practical impact, the whole question really doesn't matter. For instance, if that person wants to immigrate to Israel, there are rules for that, and your hypothetical Christian convert would presumably be eligible. Where else does it matter? You can tell the census taker whatever you want. In what other situation is the answer to the question important?

Put another way, if you, parky76, wants to claim that a Jewish convert to Christianity is still a Jew, then fine. There simply is no objective standard with which to answer the question sweepingly. As for me, I don't care.

Of course, wherever a government comes into power that wants to definitively identify Jews for some purpose, e.g., something like the Nazis in Germany, they will establish a standard in law and apply it.

[Thunder]

enigma- no, christianity and judaism are not polar opposites.

the polar opposite to judaism would be a faith that totaly embraces idolatry (catholic statues are not considered to actually be jesus or mary).

the polar opposite to judaism would be against the rights of mankind.
the polar opposite would view men as holy and God as non-existant.
the polar opposite would not embrace any of the values and tentants of judaism.

while christianity does indeed backtrack on many of the details of judaism, in its essence it is still a monotheistic faith which values mankind and human rights.

a polar opposite of judaism would be more like hinduism, or taoism, shintoism, or some african or native american faiths.

[hgc]

enigma- no, christianity and judaism are not polar opposites.

the polar opposite to judaism would be a faith that totaly embraces idolatry (catholic statues are not considered to actually be jesus or mary).

the polar opposite to judaism would be against the rights of mankind.
the polar opposite would view men as holy and God as non-existant.
the polar opposite would not embrace any of the values and tentants of judaism.

while christianity does indeed backtrack on many of the details of judaism, in its essence it is still a monotheistic faith which values mankind and human rights.

a polar opposite of judaism would be more like hinduism, or taoism, shintoism, or some african or native american faiths.


The great false dichotomy hunt. Total, utter nonsense. What's the polar opposite of the color blue?

[~enigma~]

while christianity does indeed backtrack on many of the details of judaism, in its essence it is still a monotheistic faith.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1325747b716e492d7e.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=10843)

[Mycroft]

According to Jewish law, any person born of a Jewish mother is a Jew. According to Israel's law of return, anyone who has one single Jewish grandparent, male or female, can come to Israel.

Most Jews consider secular Jews, Communist Jews, atheist Jews, to still be Jewish. But a Jew who has both a Jewish mother and Jewish father who converts to Christianity is no longer a Jew? What is the logic behind this concept? How can someone still be considered a Jew if they are communist, atheist, or secular..but not if they choose Christianity?

Is there anything written in the Talmud about this?

As an ethnic Jew, raised Jewish with a Jewish education...isn't there someone you can ask about this? Nobody in your family, among your circle of friends, former schoolmates or even a Rabbi?

I was raised Presbyterian and never met a Jew until I was in college and really didn't learn anything substantive about Jewish culture until I was in my 30's, but if I had a serious Talmudic question I could certainly find better sources to ask than a forum of skeptics generally skeptical of any religion.