LED, Fluorescent, Incandescent?

[rcronk]

So incandescent (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59298) lights will be outlawed in the U.S. by 2014 and are energy inefficient. It may warm the planet. Ok.

Fluorescent (http://www.epa.gov/hg/spills/index.htm) lights contain mercury. If a fluorescent light breaks, there are specific cleanup instructions that involve leaving the room for 15 minutes with the windows open and then you put contaminated materials in a sealed glass jar. If I have an infant, it is recommended that I consider cutting out the carpet in the breakage area and removing it. Ok.

LED (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080109083914.htm) lights are getting better and supposedly they are finding ways that will be ready for mass production in three years or so. Ok.

I have a mix of incandescent and fluorescent lighting in my house - trying to move to something more energy efficient mainly for the purpose of saving some money so I can go blow it on candy bars.

But now I learn that my cool new fluorescent bulbs are a hazard to my family and ironically, the environment. Some of them have burned out long before the promised 4 years or so of life so now I have the choice of going back to the old incandescents, replacing the hazardous waste fluorescent lights or look into LED technology that isn't optimal and is expensive. Or I could leave the lights out and live in partial darkness while I wait for LED's to catch up.

Oh, and I don't like the government forcing me to switch even though I would do it anyway. The market would (and is) delivering cheaper and more efficient bulbs without the need to outlaw the old kind - especially since what they want us to move toward is hazardous to my health. Can't people leave each other alone?

What are your plans for switching over? What are your views on legislating incandescent bulbs into extinction? Do you know of any really good normal-looking decently priced LED household lights? Oh, and I just decided to add a poll just for kicks.

[Fnord]

What are your plans for switching over?

Since nearly all of the lights in my house are fluorescent anyway, the next logical step would be LED.

What are your views on legislating incandescent bulbs into extinction?

Too much government, too little choice.

Do you know of any really good normal-looking decently priced LED household lights?

No. I'm waiting for LED lamps that include individual adjustment of the red, green, and blue (RGB) elements, OR for preset LED lamps that duplicate more closely the "warmer" tones of incandescent lamps.

[Darth Rotor]

Halogen lights.

Is there a problem here?

DR

[rcronk]

Halogen lights.

Is there a problem here?

DR

Dang - I knew I forgot something. I haven't heard halogen in the news a lot so it slipped my mind. You can just pick the government sucks or something. Are you using halogen? If so, how is that working out for you - perhaps that will be a good interim solution until LED's get better?

[rcronk]

P.S. Those who are choosing to go fluorescent, please describe how you're considering the hazardous nature of these bulbs in your decision. I think those arguments would be helpful to me in my decision. Thanks.

[Graham Jackman]

Incandescents are cheaper to manufacture but relatively inefficient. Halogen lights are more efficient but still produce a lot of waste heat. Some installations must present a real problem for airconditioning. Fluorescents are more efficient and the amount of mercury in the tube is being reduced. They are best used where the lamp remains on for long periods. Life seems to be limited by the number of switching cycles as well as tube aging. LED's are getting better and I'm just building adaptors to use high intensity white LEDs into my outside lighting. It won't be as bright as the incandescents or fluorescents but is adequate for the purpose. Each array will use about 2 watts of energy. The comment about being able to adjust the red, green and blue elements of the white LEDs is not likely to come to fruition, since the white LEDs use a UV diode and a phosphorescent coating to produce white light - much like a fluorescent (phosphorescent) tube. One big advantage of the LEDs is that they can he dimmed easily by duty cycle modification without changing the intrinsic colour.

[Dr. Trintignant]

I largely use fluorescent lights in my place. The only exceptions are certain fixtures that don't look good with fluorescents.

But you know what? I hate them. They take time to warm up (yes, I'm using the new quickstart kind that do not take as long). The CRI (color rendering index) is poor. The color balance even changes as they start up. They don't do as well in the cold. They are more sensitive to power problems (they "blow" more frequently than incandescents when on the same circuit as a laser printer). Sometimes, particularly when starting up or when they are near the end of their life, they make buzzing noises.

Their power efficiency is their only saving grace. It is substantial, and I am cheap, so I use them--particularly in the kitchen where I like to have a lot of light (500 watts of incandescents vs. ~100 of CF). But they are a compromise at best, and I certainly couldn't recommend them in any situation where color quality is an issue. This goes far beyond a basic RGB balance--it is the spectral emission qualities of fluorescents that is flawed; light that appears equally "white" when emitted form the bulb does not appear the same when reflected from colored surfaces.

LEDs could improve this in principle. Although an individual LED (without a phosphor) is nearly monochromatic, several of them could provide a good simulation of incandescent light. Unfortunately, most "white" LEDs are instead just blue LEDs with a phosphor, giving a spectrum with a large blue spike and a broad yellow spike--not very good at all.

All in all, the new technologies are certainly a leap forwards in efficiency but a leap backwards in quality and other features. I wish that progress could be made in both areas.

- Dr. Trintignant

[Dr. Trintignant]

P.S. Those who are choosing to go fluorescent, please describe how you're considering the hazardous nature of these bulbs in your decision. I think those arguments would be helpful to me in my decision. Thanks.

Over the lifetime of the bulb, the amount of mercury saved by not burning as much coal exceeds that released by crushing the fluorescent bulb. And the fluorescent only releases mercury if it is not properly disposed of.

This argument would be different if the US was not so dependent on coal power, but the fact remains that we are.

- Dr. Trintignant

[El Greco]

Halogen lights simply suck. Too much heat and they burn out too quickly. Fluorescent should be better. I can't find too bright ones and color temperature is rarely mentioned. But I like the cool operation and power saving. LEDs will be the preferred choice in the future. At this point I feel like I have switched from Win98 to Millennium while XP is not out yet.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

LED FTW!!!

(Agh, it won't let me do it all caps, except now it does that I've added this. Weird.)

[JWideman]

You don't have to call a hazmat team if one breaks. There's less mercury than in a thermometer. A broom, dustpan, and plastic bag is enough. Just... don't handle the broken bits with bare hands. It's not like dropping it on a rug is going to cause it to shatter, either. If that DOES happen, vacuum.
To get full life out of them, you HAVE to leave them on for AT LEAST 15 minutes at a time. Incandescents win out there - even compared with LEDs and halogens, making this bit of legislation very short-sighted.

[Zeno]

Incandescent lights are going to be gone in Canada before they are in the United States, I think.

[casebro]

So how about if you stick a couple red LEDs in you lamp with all those blue/phosphor ones?

[Dr. Trintignant]

So how about if you stick a couple red LEDs in you lamp with all those blue/phosphor ones?

You would need to rebalance the blue/yellow mix (the phosphor is basically yellow), but yes, you could do that to increase the color rendering qualities. However, it still wouldn't match incandescents. Perhaps if you mixed 6 or 7 colors (equally spaced on the spectrum), you could come pretty close.

One thing that I wonder about with current LED fixtures is how they deal with the AC input. Done in the cheapest possible way, you would get a 60 Hz flicker, which is unacceptable to me (incandescents don't flicker, despite also being AC, because the filament doesn't cool significantly in that time). In a slightly less cheap manner, you would get a 120 Hz flicker, which is much better but still barely acceptable. Really, you want an AC->DC conversion for good results (or an LC filter at the very least).

On a related topic, is anyone else distracted by LED taillights on some cars (particularly some Cadillacs)? They can't be modulated at more than 40 Hz. They flicker horribly in my peripheral vision and break up into multiple afterimages (like a strobe light) when I shift my vision.

- Dr. Trintignant

[IXP]

I own stock in CREE, look it up.


There is no doubt in my mind that LED's will dominate in 10 years. The combination of high efficiency, no toxic waste, and life that will exceed most humans is unbeatable by any other known technology.

Though the prices seem high today, they are not that bad when you take into account the useful life and lifetime energy savings, and this will improve.

IXP

[IXP]

You would need to rebalance the blue/yellow mix (the phosphor is basically yellow), but yes, you could do that to increase the color rendering qualities. However, it still wouldn't match incandescents. Perhaps if you mixed 6 or 7 colors (equally spaced on the spectrum), you could come pretty close.

One thing that I wonder about with current LED fixtures is how they deal with the AC input. Done in the cheapest possible way, you would get a 60 Hz flicker, which is unacceptable to me (incandescents don't flicker, despite also being AC, because the filament doesn't cool significantly in that time). In a slightly less cheap manner, you would get a 120 Hz flicker, which is much better but still barely acceptable. Really, you want an AC->DC conversion for good results (or an LC filter at the very least).

On a related topic, is anyone else distracted by LED taillights on some cars (particularly some Cadillacs)? They can't be modulated at more than 40 Hz. They flicker horribly in my peripheral vision and break up into multiple afterimages (like a strobe light) when I shift my vision.

- Dr. Trintignant
Switching power supplies can achieve AC-DC conversion with over 90% efficiency. These exist now at about a cost about $20. Built into a light fixure, that is quite cheap.

IXP

[Dr. Trintignant]

Switching power supplies can achieve AC-DC conversion with over 90% efficiency. These exist now at about a cost about $20. Built into a light fixure, that is quite cheap.

You can do it a lot more cheaply than that--but my question is whether current LED "bulbs" actually do anything like that. And upon further research, it seems like some do, like this one:
http://www.theledlight.com/gb605w.html

It has a 100-240 VAC input range, which is a sure sign of a switch-mode power supply. I'll bet, though, that many of the cheaper "shower-head" style lights don't have that kind of circuitry and rely on the string of LEDs both for handling the voltage drop and the rectification.

- Dr. Trintignant

[biostudent]

You can buy LEDs for your house? :jaw-dropp

I'm stuck with a house full of fluorescents for like the next 10 years.

[IXP]

You can buy LEDs for your house? :jaw-dropp

I'm stuck with a house full of fluorescents for like the next 10 years.
Don't worry, they wont last that long!

IXP

[IXP]

Dr Trin,

The cheapest ones do rely on a string of low power LED's and would have a 60Hz flicker presumably. The one you have linked to looks like it has 5 1W LEDs (from CREE yeah!) But the latest and greatest are 3 and even 7 watt single LEDs operating at about 3.6V. I have a 3 watt LED flashlight running off 2 C cells and this thing could blind you if you looked right into it. The better flashlights actually use a DC-DC converter so that the light does not decrease rapidly as the batteries die, i.e. it keeps up the required volatage as long as it can.

IXP

[Dr. Trintignant]

Dr Trin,

The cheapest ones do rely on a string of low power LED's and would have a 60Hz flicker presumably. The one you have linked to looks like it has 5 1W LEDs (from CREE yeah!) But the latest and greatest are 3 and even 7 watt single LEDs operating at about 3.6V. I have a 3 watt LED flashlight running off 2 C cells and this thing could blind you if you looked right into it. The better flashlights actually use a DC-DC converter so that the light does not decrease rapidly as the batteries die, i.e. it keeps up the required volatage as long as it can.

IXP

I have a few nice LED flashlights as well using 1-3 W Luxeons or CREEs, powered from AAs or CR123s with a DC-DC converter. They are definitely nice as flashlights, but the color quality simply isn't there yet. Of course it's hard to use flashlights as a legitimate reference, since color perception in darkness is different than in bright light. But in any case the current crop of "white" LEDs just aren't there yet in my opinion. Hard to say whether they're better or worse than fluorescent, but even if they're a little better, that's not saying much.

One day I'll have to try building my own lighting system with a variety of LED colors. I make a little device with separate 1-W R, G, and B LEDs, but the white was still not very good.

- Dr. Trintignant

[kallsop]

You don't have to call a hazmat team if one breaks. There's less mercury than in a thermometer. A broom, dustpan, and plastic bag is enough. Just... don't handle the broken bits with bare hands.


When I went to school, we used to play with mercury in the science lab, bare hands, and guess what, no harm done. The miniscule amount in a fluorescent bulb is nothing to worry about, unless you eat the bulb.

I didn't break one yet, but when I do, I'll be picking it up with bare hands and putting it in the trash. There's a better chance of simultaneously getting hit by lightning while winning the lottery and juggling 4 balls in the air at once than getting harmed by the bulb.

[Lynx2174]

Meh, I already exclusively use fluorescent bulbs everywhere in my apartment. They were provided by the management. I'd use fluorescent bulbs anyway, because they're easier to find nowadays, and almost as cheap as incandescents, because they appear to be heavily subsidized around here. they've like a dollar or two each for the compact kind.

I'd switch to LEDs if they became similarly cheap, just because they're cool.

I don't care about color warmth or anything. Light is light to me. If I had any reason to do so, I'd be fine with living under sodium vapor lighting. If I want decent lighting, I'll get out of the house.

[casebro]

Don't fluorescents flicker at 60 hertz anyhow? And your computer screen at 24 fps. 40 should be harmless.

And I wonder about actually eating a compact fluorescent? Just exactly how many pounds of heavy metals are in one? Since the body can handle small amounts of heavy metals by exuding it in hair, how much can the body handle harmlessly? So don't eat the whole bulb at one sitting. And the overall environmental impact is nil, since the mercury came from the environment, we just use it for a while before returning it to the environment. It doesn't seem to hurt the swordfish...

And NOBODY has ever been harmed by mercury in commercial fish. There have been two cases of industrial pollution. One in Iraq, the people ate seed grain that had been treated with a mercury pesticide, the other was a Japanese sea-side village that got most of it's food from it's own bay- a bay that was polluted by the village's own industry.

[Dr. Trintignant]

Don't fluorescents flicker at 60 hertz anyhow? And your computer screen at 24 fps. 40 should be harmless.

Old-style fluorescents flicker at 120 Hz (since they light up in both directions) and can be a little annoying (though it's not too bad--the main problem is beat frequencies with other light sources). New-style (compact) fluorescents are much higher frequency--in the tens of kilohertz--and so don't have noticable flicker.

CRT monitors generally refresh at least at 60 Hz, and it's fairly unpleasant for some people (like me) to use them for long periods. 85 Hz or more is a minimum. LCDs (generally) don't have this problem.

Movies are at 24 frames per second, but generally each frame is flashed 3 times, for an effective refresh rate of 72 Hz. That's still not great, but much better than 24 Hz would be.

An LED lamp that had only a single string of LEDs would only light up once per cycle, or 60 Hz, and be pretty distracting for many people. I've seen some LED Christmas lights that worked that way and it was very noticeable.

Admittedly, some people don't have any problem with 60 Hz and don't even notice what's "wrong", but I'm pretty sensitive to it. I don't know exactly what frequency these LED taillights are at, but it's well under 60 Hz, and very distracting to me.

- Dr. Trintignant

[Philip]

I've got several burnt out compact fluorescent lights for which I didn't remember the installation date except to know they didn't last the five to seven years "guaranteed". I've started writing the installation date on the base of new bulbs I use so that I can take advantage of the guarantees. The packages indicate that the bulbs can't be used with dimmers or enclosed fixtures, so I can't use them in all of the fixtures in our apartment. Our kitchen has a long tube fluorescent fixture which provides the best light in the apartment. The color quality doesn't bother me. When I run out of replacement compact fluorescents, I might try some LED replacements if I can find some that are not too expensive. If I had my own house I'd make sure all the fixtures could take fluorescents or LEDs.

[Timothy]

Halogen lights simply suck. Too much heat and they burn out too quickly.

I have a sink/vanity alcove in my master bedroom that has a fixture with two halogen lamps. It's typically on a couple hours a day, with a lot of cycling. But it's on an electronic dimmer (press the switch and the lamps ramp to full output in about three seconds). This fixture has been there for nine years -- I've only had to replace each of the bulbs once in that time. Getting rid of the "instant on" switch works well with preserving the life of other incandescents in the house as well.

I also have several compact fluorescents in torchiere lamps. My major complaint is not flicker, but noise. They hum. Audible enough to destroy the silence of a room for reading, at least for me. Anyone else have this problem?

[Graham Jackman]

Old-style fluorescents flicker at 120 Hz (since they light up in both directions) and can be a little annoying (though it's not too bad--the main problem is beat frequencies with other light sources). New-style (compact) fluorescents are much higher frequency--in the tens of kilohertz--and so don't have noticable flicker.

CRT monitors generally refresh at least at 60 Hz, and it's fairly unpleasant for some people (like me) to use them for long periods. 85 Hz or more is a minimum. LCDs (generally) don't have this problem.

Movies are at 24 frames per second, but generally each frame is flashed 3 times, for an effective refresh rate of 72 Hz. That's still not great, but much better than 24 Hz would be.

An LED lamp that had only a single string of LEDs would only light up once per cycle, or 60 Hz, and be pretty distracting for many people. I've seen some LED Christmas lights that worked that way and it was very noticeable.

Admittedly, some people don't have any problem with 60 Hz and don't even notice what's "wrong", but I'm pretty sensitive to it. I don't know exactly what frequency these LED taillights are at, but it's well under 60 Hz, and very distracting to me.

- Dr. Trintignant

I've used the residual flicker to measure the rotational speed of centrifuges. recently, I looked at the degree of flicker from fluorescents and incandescents. There is less from the incandescents than standard fluorescents. but it is till measurable. it is interesting to note that at one time people would complain that their infrared remote controls didn't work at night. it turned out to be the the noise from compact fluorescents, which worked at a similar frequency. I find that the newer ones operate at a different frequency but the degree of flicker at the operating frequency is even stronger (in % terms) than standard fluorescents. I imagined that the phosphor would smooth out a lot of this.

[Soapy Sam]

In places (eg Scotland) where the main domestic use of electricity is for heating, the entire argument that tungsten and halogen lights "waste energy" as heat simply falls over. Heat is heat, regardless of the source.

By running 100W tungsten bulbs through the winter in my dark, Scottish, north facing flat, I not only make the place a lot more cheerful to be in , I also use exactly the same amount of energy to maintain an acceptable temperature as I would if I used low power fluorescents, but turned the heating up to compensate for the drop in "wasted" heat.

With tungsten bulbs, I also get bright light the second I switch it on, instead of five minutes later. Yes low power bulbs do brighten after a few minutes, but how often do we switch a light on for a few seconds to find something, then switch it off again? How wasteful is it if I have to leave a light on for five minutes before it's bright enough to see by?

In a slightly different context, I have been replacing low power (16W) tubes on my shared stair for several years. These remain switched on 24 /7. They reduce power consumption in that situation and provide adequate light, but they fade noticeably over a few months.
According to my ancient light meter, the light output from these tubes falls as much as 30% after six months and levels at about 50% of original brightness after a year. The tubes generally fail after 14-18 months constant use. They cost 10 times the price of a 40W tungsten bulb (£3.99 for the cheapest compared with £0.39 for a tungsten bulb) and the mounting fittings are also pricier than tungsten fittings.

So- there are advantages and drawbacks to both. We should fit the advantages to our requirements.

[El Greco]

So, the ideal light source:

1. Has low power consumption
2. Lasts a long time, even when frequently turned on and off
3. Provides instantly its full brightness
4. Doesn't flicker or make noise
5. Can be used with dimmers
6. Is relatively cheap to buy

[Soapy Sam]

Fireflies?

[Furi]

I thought most people here are enlightened enough to read by anyway

[Mr. Scott]

Movies are at 24 frames per second, but generally each frame is flashed 3 times, for an effective refresh rate of 72 Hz. That's still not great, but much better than 24 Hz would be.

- Dr. Trintignant

Almost all American theaters have projectors that flash each frame twice, so they flicker at 48 Hz. This is OK as long as the picture is not too bright and the screen is not wide enough to include peripheral vision.

American television on CRTs flickers at 60 Hz (30 Hz for fine details), which is fine most of the time, but European television (and film) runs at 50 Hz and drives me crazy, though the locals seem accustomed to it.

The flickering LEDs on automobile tail lights drive me crazy, too.

My house has florescent lamps almost exclusively. The cheap ones are bluish but light from the warm ones is indistinguishable from incandescent. I use the cheap bluish bulbs in the hallways.

As for longevity, keep in mind that the phosphors in florescent lamps and while LEDs dim gradually with use and may also loose their color balance.

[Furi]

Bizzare Delayed Double post..
*Spooky Music*

[Speedskater]

(snip)
On a related topic, is anyone else distracted by LED taillights on some cars (particularly some Cadillacs)? They can't be modulated at more than 40 Hz. They flicker horribly in my peripheral vision and break up into multiple afterimages (like a strobe light) when I shift my vision.

- Dr. Trintignant
Yes, some of the Cadillac's and more so the Infiniti FX series of SUV's. I first noticed this going down a long winding hill, with an old car between the Infiniti and me. The Infiniti looked like strobe lights jumping all over the road. On another automobile subject, all BMW headlights hurt my eyes. And Doctor I agree with just about everything that you have written a about home lighting.

[Cuddles]

Don't worry, they wont last that long!

IXP

I have to say, I'm always confused in threads like this when people comment on the lifetime of flourescent bulbs. When I was still living with my parents, we started switching to flourescent. Something like 15 years later, not a single one has died, while every single other light in the house has been replaced, usually more than once. Are some types of flourescent much worse than others, do some people buy really cheap bulbs that aren't worth the glass they're made from, or have my parents just been incredibly lucky?

I also have several compact fluorescents in torchiere lamps. My major complaint is not flicker, but noise. They hum. Audible enough to destroy the silence of a room for reading, at least for me. Anyone else have this problem?

Yes, I've notice the same. It's not a problem for normal lighting, but for things like bedside lamps that are close to your head and tend to only be used when it's quiet, it can be incredibly annoying. The Wiki page mentions that older style bulbs have a high-pitched hum, but the noise I get is not high at all.

[Dan O.]

There are places where the CF bulbs won't work well. The biggest killers are heat, cold and bad power. Many enclosed fixtures will get too hot for the electronics in a CF bulb and they will burn out early. If it's too cold most CFs won't light. Everyone expects that if the voltage is too high it will burn out the bulb quicker. But with CF bulbs it will also burn them out quicker if the voltage is too low because they have to pull more current.

BTW: Never use a CF bulb on a dimmer unless both the bulb and dimmer are designed for the task. It not only is bad for the bulb and bad for the dimmer but is a potential fire hazard because of the increased current.

I just watched a CF bulb die a couple of days ago possibly because it wasn't tight in the socket. It flickered a few times and before I could get up to check it the light went out and started smoking.

[fuelair]

P.S. Those who are choosing to go fluorescent, please describe how you're considering the hazardous nature of these bulbs in your decision. I think those arguments would be helpful to me in my decision. Thanks.
Basically, if the mercury was actually as dangerous as touted (it is if you drink it or breathe in a lot of it's fumes) it would really be a problem. But, I grew up in a world where chemistry teachers routinely demonstrated extraction of Hg from cinnabar by heating in open test tubes in open classrooms and had the students get close to observe it, Mercury was put in our hands to observe. Lot's of us "accidentally " broke thermometers to get mercury to coat pennies with - and just generally play with. Wildly, I can still think and write pretty clearly, My IQ has shown no signs of dropping, Nothing weird (like, say, heavy metal) has shown up in any medical tests. So.......
Safety is not a bad thing, I heartily advocate it. But, you need to consider at what level things might just be a bit over-reactive.

[Soapy Sam]

I shall say zis only vonce...


FLU (as in "over the cuckoo's nest) orescent.

(I just googled "flourescence". My god, can nobody spell this?)

[rcronk]

Great comments all! Thanks!

You don't have to call a hazmat team if one breaks. There's less mercury than in a thermometer. A broom, dustpan, and plastic bag is enough. Just... don't handle the broken bits with bare hands. It's not like dropping it on a rug is going to cause it to shatter, either. If that DOES happen, vacuum.
To get full life out of them, you HAVE to leave them on for AT LEAST 15 minutes at a time. Incandescents win out there - even compared with LEDs and halogens, making this bit of legislation very short-sighted.

According to the EPA, if a fluorescent bulb breaks:

Before Clean-up: Vent the Room

Open a window and leave the room for 15 minutes or more.
Shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system, if you have one.Clean-Up Steps for Hard Surfaces
<LI value=3>Carefully scoop up glass fragments and powder using stiff paper or cardboard and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass fragments and powder.
Wipe the area clean with damp paper towels or disposable wet wipes and place them in the glass jar or plastic bag.
Do not use a vacuum or broom to clean up the broken bulb on hard surfaces.Clean-up Steps for Carpeting or Rug
<LI value=3>Carefully pick up glass fragments and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass fragments and powder.
If vacuuming is needed after all visible materials are removed, vacuum the area where the bulb was broken.
Remove the vacuum bag (or empty and wipe the canister), and put the bag or vacuum debris in a sealed plastic bag.
(From Maine's study: Suggesting that homeowners consider removal of the area of carpet where the breakage occurred as a precaution, particularly in homes with infants, small children or pregnant women;)Disposal of Clean-up Materials
<LI value=7>Immediately place all cleanup materials outside the building in a trash container or outdoor protected area for the next normal trash.
Wash your hands after disposing of the jars or plastic bags containing clean-up materials.
Check with your local or state government about disposal requirements in your specific area. Some states prohibit such trash disposal and require that broken and unbroken mercury-containing bulbs be taken to a local recycling center.Future Cleaning of Carpeting or Rug: Vent the Room During and After Vacuuming
<LI value=10>The next several times you vacuum, shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system and open a window prior to vacuuming.
Keep the central heating/air conditioning system shut off and the window open for at least 15 minutes after vacuuming is completed.Remove the carpet? You mean like cutting a hole in the middle of my room? I'm sorry, but that's just completely insane and I don't want this stuff around my kids - just in case. Maybe I'm overreacting, but I'll trust a scientific study (quoted above) before trusting anyone's suggestions.


I own stock in CREE, look it up.


There is no doubt in my mind that LED's will dominate in 10 years. The combination of high efficiency, no toxic waste, and life that will exceed most humans is unbeatable by any other known technology.

Though the prices seem high today, they are not that bad when you take into account the useful life and lifetime energy savings, and this will improve.

IXP

So - what do you suggest for normal 65W incandescent equivalent LED home lighting? Is there something decent out there right now? If so, link to it. If not, when do you think it will be decent. Decent meaning good efficiency, long life, good price.

Fireflies?

Flaming cow pies.

Yes, some of the Cadillac's and more so the Infiniti FX series of SUV's. I first noticed this going down a long winding hill, with an old car between the Infiniti and me. The Infiniti looked like strobe lights jumping all over the road. On another automobile subject, all BMW headlights hurt my eyes. And Doctor I agree with just about everything that you have written a about home lighting.

I notice those but they don't drive me nuts. I wonder if this is more or less noticeable/annoying based on some biological difference between people?

I just watched a CF bulb die a couple of days ago possibly because it wasn't tight in the socket. It flickered a few times and before I could get up to check it the light went out and started smoking.

Smoking!? I guess it's probably not good to go sniffing that smoke up huh?

[rcronk]

I shall say zis only vonce...


FLU (as in "over the cuckoo's nest) orescent.

(I just googled "flourescence". My god, can nobody spell this?)

Indeed. I think it's a spelling conspiracy that all forms of lighting discussed here have been forced to be difficultly spelled, well, except for LED. Perhaps we should pick LED lighting simply because it's easier to spell. Well, Halogen isn't too hard, but those suck.

[richardm]

Interesting timing, this.

Our kitchen has two halogen light fittings in it, and if we're eating at the table then it can become unpleasantly hot under them. So with that in mind - and in the interests of saving some cash since the halogen bulbs drink electricity like there's no tomorrow - I've just ordered some LED replacement bulbs to see how we get on with them. I've enough to fit one lamp - I'll leave the halogen bulbs in the other to compare and contrast.

Elsewhere in the house we still generally use incandescent bulbs, although when they die I am replacing them with fluorescent ones. The newer generation are definitely quicker to light than the old ones by a good margin, but they're still not as good as incandescents on that score. This puzzles me slightly, because I'm sure that I remember fluorescent tubes coming up to full brightness extremely quickly, after a couple of seconds of flickering anyway. Why are these little twisty tubes different?

[IXP]

Great comments all! Thanks!
So - what do you suggest for normal 65W incandescent equivalent LED home lighting? Is there something decent out there right now? If so, link to it. If not, when do you think it will be decent. Decent meaning good efficiency, long life, good price.

For a normal incandescent 60W bulb, there is really nothing comparable on the market today.
For recessed lighting, this one looks interesting, though I have not seen it, so I am not recommending it.

http://www.besthomeledlighting.com/product/PAR30-120-E27-W-7W-W

And for a 40W fluorescent replacement, this one looks interesting, but same caveat.

http://www.everled.com/everled-tr/?

I am betting that we will start seeing viable product within a couple of years and they will be the norm within 10 years.

IXP

[IXP]

I have to say, I'm always confused in threads like this when people comment on the lifetime of flourescent bulbs. When I was still living with my parents, we started switching to flourescent. Something like 15 years later, not a single one has died, while every single other light in the house has been replaced, usually more than once. Are some types of flourescent much worse than others, do some people buy really cheap bulbs that aren't worth the glass they're made from, or have my parents just been incredibly lucky?

Either that or I have been very unlucky. I installed 5 CFLs in my basement / workshop about 2 years ago. One was DOA, and 2 have died in that time period. These are major brand: Sylvania not the cheap ones that I gave up on a long time ago. I have had better luck with the 48 in fluorescent tubes, they don't fail completely, but they seem to lose light output over time.

IXP

[Soapy Sam]

I put three Sylvania 240V halogens in my kitchen - oh, must be 8 or 9 years ago.
Two failed within days. I sent one back to Sylvania who sent me three more from a different batch and an apology. Of the remaining 4, three still work and the fourth is still in its box. I think they sold me "ordinaries" first time, but sent "NWO Illuminati" bulbs as replacements.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I guess everyone's talking strictly about household lighting and not other applications.

I use a number of different illuminated juggling props. For a long time I used this lighted wire stuff. It's a central wire coated with phosphorus surrounded by a spiral of two extraordinarily thin wires. You pass an alternating current from the thin wires to the central wire and the phosphorus lights up like a TV screen. I used those for a long time, but they were heavy (batteries PLUS a voltage inverter), and the solders on the thin wires were extremely fragile.

The newer LEDs are great for this use except they just eat up batteries (and the batteries aren't cheap). One of my lighted clubs, for instance, has two separate LEDs one at each end with a molded plastic focuser/diffuser so that the translucent club body is fairly evenly lit up. Each LED takes a stack of 4 LR1130 watch batteries. These things cost like $3 each retail. On-line I can find them as cheap as 5 cents a piece in bulk, but those are really bad (usually old, often already leaky). They give me about 5-10 minutes of good light, then dim noticeably and are pretty much shot after about 20 minutes of continuous use. Even with retail batteries (from my prop vendor, I can get them for something like $3.50 per set of 4), the best I can do is get one hour's use before I have to change them. (Those at least stay at the dimmer light for a longer time before really going bad.) I got the silver oxide version (SR1130), and they did only slightly better (not enough better to justify the price).

[biostudent]

I just replaced one of my halogens in the kitchen. Seriously, all halogens I've ever owned just don't last. Anyway, it flickered last night, but kept working. Anyone know why it would have done that? *worried* Maybe it's loose. I'm hoping it's just loose, lol. I'll look at it later. Stupid expensive things that only last a few months...

As for my fluorescents, we have the older style ones in the kitchen and laundry room, and have installed the compact types in all the regular (i.e. originally intended for incandescents) light fixtures, including outside. I managed to find some that are rated as acceptable for outdoor use in enclosed fixtures, and they seem to work nicely. Anyway... I bought all the same stuff for our previous house, which we lived in for 6 years, and not a single one burned out and in fact as far as I know, the current owners are still using them. They made ugly light, though - kind of greenish.

I'm highly dissatisfied with the set I bought for our kitchen ceiling fan, though. I decided to try some of those newer ones that are, in fact, meant for things like ceiling fans (as in, they have the appropriate shape and so on). They SUCK!! They're like the older compacts, which have to be on for several minutes before they reach full brightness! :mad: I swear, I haven't seen that kind in like 10 years. I thought the industry had moved beyond that. Well I'm stuck with them, now... The things were expensive, too. All our other compacts turn on with full brightness within seconds of flipping the switch.

[fuelair]

Great comments all! Thanks!



According to the EPA, if a fluorescent bulb breaks:

Before Clean-up: Vent the Room

Open a window and leave the room for 15 minutes or more.
Shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system, if you have one.Clean-Up Steps for Hard Surfaces
<LI value=3>Carefully scoop up glass fragments and powder using stiff paper or cardboard and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass fragments and powder.
Wipe the area clean with damp paper towels or disposable wet wipes and place them in the glass jar or plastic bag.
Do not use a vacuum or broom to clean up the broken bulb on hard surfaces.Clean-up Steps for Carpeting or Rug
<LI value=3>Carefully pick up glass fragments and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass fragments and powder.
If vacuuming is needed after all visible materials are removed, vacuum the area where the bulb was broken.
Remove the vacuum bag (or empty and wipe the canister), and put the bag or vacuum debris in a sealed plastic bag.
(From Maine's study: Suggesting that homeowners consider removal of the area of carpet where the breakage occurred as a precaution, particularly in homes with infants, small children or pregnant women;)Disposal of Clean-up Materials
<LI value=7>Immediately place all cleanup materials outside the building in a trash container or outdoor protected area for the next normal trash.
Wash your hands after disposing of the jars or plastic bags containing clean-up materials.
Check with your local or state government about disposal requirements in your specific area. Some states prohibit such trash disposal and require that broken and unbroken mercury-containing bulbs be taken to a local recycling center.Future Cleaning of Carpeting or Rug: Vent the Room During and After Vacuuming
<LI value=10>The next several times you vacuum, shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system and open a window prior to vacuuming.
Keep the central heating/air conditioning system shut off and the window open for at least 15 minutes after vacuuming is completed.Remove the carpet? You mean like cutting a hole in the middle of my room? I'm sorry, but that's just completely insane and I don't want this stuff around my kids - just in case. Maybe I'm overreacting, but I'll trust a scientific study (quoted above) before trusting anyone's suggestions.


?

That actually is not a scientific study, nor does it say anywhere I spotted that it was based on a scientific study. And I am pretty darn sure no scientific study was involved in generating it - but you might want to ask them. I would not heat mercury in an enclosed room with kids around and I wouldn't give it to any kids to carefully experiment with (thanks to the current scare, not because I am concerned with the danger). That does not change the (obviously anecdotal) experiences of my life and I have in no way exagerated them or downplayed any results of them.

[Prometheus]

I'm thinking of just painting all of the interior surfaces of my house with this stuff (http://www.unitednuclear.com/glow.htm). :rolleyes:

[DRBUZZ0]

I already switched to (mostly) led use except a few fixtures which still need to be replaced. The initial round of LED's I bought were rather crappy and ended up dimming significantly after a short period of time.

I've actually been working on building my own LED lighting system which is going to use an internal rectifier and capacitors to give some good smooth DC and then I'm using some solid state relays to control the brightness and color temperature by having several arrays of different led's.

[Dan O.]

One of my lighted clubs, for instance, has two separate LEDs one at each end with a molded plastic focuser/diffuser so that the translucent club body is fairly evenly lit up. Each LED takes a stack of 4 LR1130 watch batteries. These things cost like $3 each retail

Wouldn't it be great if you could run the whole thing off a single cheap 1.5v AAA alkaline or rechargeable battery?

http://edusite10.tripod.com/led3/onetran/single_tran.html

[Graham Jackman]

I guess everyone's talking strictly about household lighting and not other applications.

I use a number of different illuminated juggling props. For a long time I used this lighted wire stuff. It's a central wire coated with phosphorus surrounded by a spiral of two extraordinarily thin wires. You pass an alternating current from the thin wires to the central wire and the phosphorus lights up like a TV screen. I used those for a long time, but they were heavy (batteries PLUS a voltage inverter), and the solders on the thin wires were extremely fragile.

The newer LEDs are great for this use except they just eat up batteries (and the batteries aren't cheap). One of my lighted clubs, for instance, has two separate LEDs one at each end with a molded plastic focuser/diffuser so that the translucent club body is fairly evenly lit up. Each LED takes a stack of 4 LR1130 watch batteries. These things cost like $3 each retail. On-line I can find them as cheap as 5 cents a piece in bulk, but those are really bad (usually old, often already leaky). They give me about 5-10 minutes of good light, then dim noticeably and are pretty much shot after about 20 minutes of continuous use. Even with retail batteries (from my prop vendor, I can get them for something like $3.50 per set of 4), the best I can do is get one hour's use before I have to change them. (Those at least stay at the dimmer light for a longer time before really going bad.) I got the silver oxide version (SR1130), and they did only slightly better (not enough better to justify the price).

The problem here is not the LED but the battery. Incandescent bulbs at the same brightness would use up those batteries even faster. The watch batteries usually deliver 1.5 volts so you should be able to run them off the same number of alkaline or even NiCd or NiMH cells.

[devnull]

My new laptop is LED backlit. It hasnt arrived yet, so I hope that it doesnt mess with my eyes the way that fluoro lights do.

[luchog]

Right now, CFLs are keeping me alive and functional.

Something LEDs couldn't manage to do.

I have SAD fairly bad. Getting a 105 Watt (roughly the equivalent of 400-450 incandescent) full-spectrum grow-light hanging right over my bed has done a huge amount to help with that. Not as good as real sunlight, but effective enough. Not something I could do with LEDs. LEDs are far too limited in their frequency range to put out the kind of light I need, even if I spend several thousand dollars to get an equivalent intensity.

I like incandescents. They have a beautifully warm colour balance, and are very easy on the eyes. Fluorescents, even the best CFLs, are just too hard on my eyes, the light has too much green, not enough red/yellow, even in the warmer variants. And the flicker is bad. It's not really visible on a CFL like it is on an industrial fluorescent, but I can still feel it in the quality of the light. I haven't met too many people who could feel it the way I can, though. I guess that being a migraineur, I'm more sensitive to that kind of thing (industrial fluorescents will almost invariably trigger migraines).

Ideally, I'd like to get a good full-spectrum 5500K or 6300K 500W metal halide rig for my indoor lighting; but the heat would be a difficult thing to deal with in the house. Best light balance, second best light pressure per watt, even light without the fluorescent flicker. And the cacti would appreciate it. It's just the heat that's a problem, so I probably won't manage. Plus they're far more expensive, 10-20 times as much as an equivalent CFL. They do age, and eventually would have to be replaced since the colour balance would shift; but they're more stable and age slower than CFLs.

I don't see LEDs taking over from either one, unless they're improved dramatically, and come down even more dramatically in price. I typically use a balance of CFLs and fluorescents; and for now reserve the metal halides for the tropical reef tank.

[Smackety]

We live near an airport and our lightbulbs go out constantly due to the vibration from planes taking off. A couple months ago we spent the extra money for two 8 packs of the compact flourescent bulbs, thinking they would last longer. They don't. They are all burned out already. Waiting for LED to improve I guess.

[biostudent]

I seem to have been spared having to buy yet another halogen bulb. Yay I guess. ;) I switched it with another bulb from a different fixture and they both seem to be working now. Woohoo, I saved the 5 or so bucks it would have cost to replace it, lol! (I get grumpy about that simply because it gets annoying to have to do it every 6 months when the same money could get a CFL that lasts 5 years or more)

[Almo]

Flourescent lights flash. They suck. LED for me, provided they feed them DC. 60-cycle flash in lights sucks.

[MRC_Hans]

So, the ideal light source:

1. Has low power consumption
2. Lasts a long time, even when frequently turned on and off
3. Provides instantly its full brightness
4. Doesn't flicker or make noise
5. Can be used with dimmers
6. Is relatively cheap to buy

7. Has a reasonably linear spectrum.

Hans

[Cuddles]

I shall say zis only vonce...


FLU (as in "over the cuckoo's nest) orescent.

(I just googled "flourescence". My god, can nobody spell this?)

No. No we can't.:o

[Dan O.]

I've been trying to find a case for LED lighting based on cost. By pushing the cost of electricity up to $.25/kWh, assuming the bulb is on continuously and the cost of capitol is only 2%, I worked out that you can save $2 per year for each CF bulb replaced by LEDs.

[genesplicer]

I already use a blended approach. lots of my lights are on dimmers, so I use incandescent in those. In most other places I have fluorescent, and I am currently working on banked LEDs in a few areas where they will be useful to us, such as above our workbenches. The difficulty lies in finding the proper blend of "white" LEDs to give us a decent imitation of natural light.

[TobiasTheCommie]

American television on CRTs flickers at 60 Hz (30 Hz for fine details), which is fine most of the time, but European television (and film) runs at 50 Hz and drives me crazy, though the locals seem accustomed to it.

Trust me, some europeans (read me) have the same problem, my tv is a 100hz, i get a headache from looking at anything below 73, and i feel half blind(i can't really explain it, feels like the light is being sucked from my eyes) at less than 65.

[Olowkow]

We live near an airport and our lightbulbs go out constantly due to the vibration from planes taking off. A couple months ago we spent the extra money for two 8 packs of the compact flourescent bulbs, thinking they would last longer. They don't. They are all burned out already. Waiting for LED to improve I guess.

If it is true that your light bulbs go out due to "vibration from planes", you have loose connections. Do you check the incandescent bulbs with an ohmmeter, or the fluorescent ones in another socket to be sure they are bad?

There is no reason that planes taking off should burn out light bulbs, unless the vibrations are so severe that they weaken the filaments. If that is the case, I would check for structural damage to the house.

We have been using the fluorescent bulbs for many years with no failures.

[casebro]

Does 'SAD' treatment require full spectrum? I would think that like everything else, the human body probably uses a narrow range of light to do whatever it is that needs doing. One of the UVs probably, since incandescents make lots of IR. So, maybe cheaper bulbs would work as well? Any SAD studies re: wavelengths ?

And re: the flickering of 'industrial fluorescents', the newer ones use electronic ballasts, so probably flicker lots faster than the the ones that ran on a 60 hertz transformer. And so much more efficient, our local electric co. is replacing the old with the new for free. I guess the new ballasts don't get warm, plus the different bulb is more efficient.

[TjW]

I already switched to (mostly) led use except a few fixtures which still need to be replaced. The initial round of LED's I bought were rather crappy and ended up dimming significantly after a short period of time.

I've actually been working on building my own LED lighting system which is going to use an internal rectifier and capacitors to give some good smooth DC and then I'm using some solid state relays to control the brightness and color temperature by having several arrays of different led's.

If you're going to go to that much trouble, why not just use one (or three, if you want to do some sort of color balancing thing) of the LED controller chips available? They're essentially switching regulators that allow controlling the duty cycle.

[Dan O.]

Would a 42" LED monitor be a suitable treatment for SAD? The color balance can be easily adjusted as well as adding texture and motion. You would probably have to sit in front of the thing for several hours a day. For that, the content would need to be captivating.

For LED lighting, a switching power supply would be more efficient than a simple rectifier. Most power LEDs are driven by pulse circuits to get better light generating efficiency at higher currents but keep the heat down by limiting the duty cycle. I'm thinking the best solution will be dual conversion. A main AC/DC switching power supply driving a DC distribution bus and individual pulse controllers on each light for dimming/smart house controls and such.

[Soapy Sam]

i get a headache from looking at anything below 73, and i feel half blind(i can't really explain it, feels like the light is being sucked from my eyes) at less than 65.

You really have'nt realised yet?
The NWO illuminati are stealing your light and beaming it to a Bavarian Schloss.

Why did you think they call them "illuminati"?

[WildCat]

There are places where the CF bulbs won't work well. The biggest killers are heat, cold and bad power. Many enclosed fixtures will get too hot for the electronics in a CF bulb and they will burn out early. If it's too cold most CFs won't light.
I've had CF bulbs in my detached, non-heated garage for nearly 2 years now. Both still work, even a few weeks ago when it was 10 below zero Fahrenheit. Now, they weren't very bright initially then but they were adequate for the use.

I'd use CF bulbs more if they could be dimmed, is there an insurmountable technical issue that prevents this?

The halogen bulbs in my bathroom fixture over the medicine cabinet are still going strong after 1 year, I have it on a digital dimmer so I think that helps the life span.

[Dan O.]

There is a self dimming CF bulb where you turn it off momentarily to drop to a lower brightness. They also make CF bulbs that work with certain dimmers.

The problem with generic CF bulbs and dimmers is that the bulbs use a bridge rectifier and capacitor to convert the AC input to DC before going through a switching circuit to generate high voltage pulses for the gas tube. A standard dimmer operates by reducing the duty cycle if the AC waveform. Since the AC peak is still the same, the capacitor is charged to the same voltage but this happens over a much shorter time so the peak current goes way up. Heating in the wires is proportional to the square of the current so when you cut the duty cycle in half the peak current doubles which quadruples the peak heating resulting in a doubling of the average heating (ouch)! At some dimmer settings you can have peak currents of 5 to 10 times the full on setting. That can exceed the current rating of the wires and has been shown to cause fires.

A dim-able CF bulb would have a double switching power conversion (which should improve efficiency) and would then be able to detect the dimmer setting and adjust its own duty cycle to match the dimmer. A better long term solution would be a smart lamp with remote control for the lighting and a replaceable bulb without all the electronics.

Halogen bulbs have an interesting self repair property. They last longer than regular bulbs because they trap the metal vapor from the filament in the gas and keep it from plating the inside of the bulb (which is the primary cause of dimming in incandescent bulbs). When you turn the bulb off the metal vapor plates back onto the cooling filament.

[Olowkow]

Halogen bulbs have an interesting self repair property. They last longer than regular bulbs because they trap the metal vapor from the filament in the gas and keep it from plating the inside of the bulb (which is the primary cause of dimming in incandescent bulbs). When you turn the bulb off the metal vapor plates back onto the cooling filament.

Also, the halogen cycle depends upon having an envelope, quartz, that gets very hot. This is why they are generally quite small in size. If dimmed, the tungsten vapor will soon be deposited on the inside of the quartz and cause it to not only have less light output, but absorb heat irregularly causing failure, either of the filament or the socket/pins.

Halogen lamps should not be handled with bare fingers, as salt deposits on the quartz can cause hot spots.

[MattusMaximus]

Anyone ever seen this website?

One Billion Bulbs (http://onebillionbulbs.com/)

Thoughts? Comments?

[Leicontis]

I'm very happy with the 1W LED in my 2-D-cell Mag-Lite - way brighter than the normal bulb, and likely a lot more durable, too.

As far as home lighting goes, I'm waiting to see what pops up with the OLEDs they're working on - from what I've heard, they're supposed to be cheaper and have better color balance than regular LEDs. That, and they can be made as flexible sheets - I expect we'll have a lot less glare and bright spots to worry about when we can make our entire ceiling glow!

[Graham Jackman]

There is a self dimming CF bulb where you turn it off momentarily to drop to a lower brightness. They also make CF bulbs that work with certain dimmers.

The problem with generic CF bulbs and dimmers is that the bulbs use a bridge rectifier and capacitor to convert the AC input to DC before going through a switching circuit to generate high voltage pulses for the gas tube. A standard dimmer operates by reducing the duty cycle if the AC waveform. Since the AC peak is still the same, the capacitor is charged to the same voltage but this happens over a much shorter time so the peak current goes way up. Heating in the wires is proportional to the square of the current so when you cut the duty cycle in half the peak current doubles which quadruples the peak heating resulting in a doubling of the average heating (ouch)! At some dimmer settings you can have peak currents of 5 to 10 times the full on setting. That can exceed the current rating of the wires and has been shown to cause fires.

A dim-able CF bulb would have a double switching power conversion (which should improve efficiency) and would then be able to detect the dimmer setting and adjust its own duty cycle to match the dimmer. A better long term solution would be a smart lamp with remote control for the lighting and a replaceable bulb without all the electronics.

Halogen bulbs have an interesting self repair property. They last longer than regular bulbs because they trap the metal vapor from the filament in the gas and keep it from plating the inside of the bulb (which is the primary cause of dimming in incandescent bulbs). When you turn the bulb off the metal vapor plates back onto the cooling filament.

That's not quite right. The halogen reacts with the tungsten evaporated from the filament to form more volatile tungsten halides. Weak spots in filaments have higher resistance and thus get hotter and it is at these points that the tungsten halide decomposes to deposit fresh tungsten metal. The idea being to deposit metal where it's most needed.

[Dan O.]

That's not quite right. The halogen reacts with the tungsten evaporated from the filament to form more volatile tungsten halides. Weak spots in filaments have higher resistance and thus get hotter and it is at these points that the tungsten halide decomposes to deposit fresh tungsten metal. The idea being to deposit metal where it's most needed.

You're right. I knew I should have looked it up instead of trying to post from memory.

[sugarb]

We have changed over to the fluorescent. I don't worry too much about broken bulbs. Actually, I can't recall ever breaking a light bulb (other than christmas lights that get smashed because I've been too lazy to put them up correctly). The thing that I'm finding most difficult is breaking the habit of turning the light switch off every time I leave the room, for just those quick trips in and out. I spent years conditioning housemates, instructing them that light switches go up AND down...and now I'm trying to adapt to this 15 minute thing. All that wasted harping...it is really quite tragic. :)

[mhaze]

http://www.superbrightleds.com/

[luchog]

Does 'SAD' treatment require full spectrum? I would think that like everything else, the human body probably uses a narrow range of light to do whatever it is that needs doing. One of the UVs probably, since incandescents make lots of IR. So, maybe cheaper bulbs would work as well? Any SAD studies re: wavelengths ?

The research is only just being done on specific wavelengths, but seems to indicate that the key frequencies are in the blue end of the spectrum; and doesn't extend into the UV, which is generally not recommended.

Incandescents have very little blue in them. Ordinary fluorescents are also similarly deficient in blue light, as they emit primarily in the green region of the spectrum. Colour-balanced CFLs also tend to be somewhat deficient, but better. Full-spectrum CFLs (the sort intended for plants and reef aquaria) are the best choice so far, as they have a sufficient intensity in the blue spectrum, and are relatively inexpensive. Full-spectrum Metal Halide have the best colour balance and light intensity, but are considerably more expensive than CFLs, and have a problem with heat generation.

Blue-white LEDs have been tried, but so far proven to be ineffective at treating SAD. The colour range is far too narrow, and the intensity is nowhere near high enough without spending several thousand dollars on enourmous banks of LEDs. By contrast, a good high-intensity full-spectrum CFL bank can be made for about one to two hundred dollars; and a good metal-halide system will run two to four hundred.

[luchog]

Would a 42" LED monitor be a suitable treatment for SAD? The color balance can be easily adjusted as well as adding texture and motion. You would probably have to sit in front of the thing for several hours a day. For that, the content would need to be captivating.
No, nowhere near suitable.

It's not just the colour temperature that's important. The light intensity is even more important. Most light systems intended to treat SAD have roughly the same light intensity as 2 or 3 450Watt incancescent floods. They're typcally made with a bank of 4-6 CFL tubes, or 2-5 high-intensity CFL "bulbs", running between 150 and 300 Watts, or a single 200-450Watt metal halide bulb. Even at it's brightest, your monitor wouldn't put out even the same light intensity as a single 50Watt CFL unit.

[XBoxWarrior]

I grow all my weed with Metal Halide for the vegetative state (nice and bright)...

and fruit them out with High Pressure Sodium (very warm and sunset like) ...

as far as the house goes, I use a mix of CF, and Incandescents.

But after reading this thread, I now realize that the "NWO Illuminati" is sucking my brains out through my laptop screen........I often wondered why my laptop was killing my vision?

My mycology basement lab doesn't require much lighting, so I just use a CF (or two) over the giant (48 gallon) Tupperware containers.

Gotta pay the bills. ;)

[Graham Jackman]

No. No we can't.:o

Perhaps we could further occupy Soapy Sam by pointing out that these lamps are really phosphorescent, not fluorescent!http://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/smile.gif
:)

[rcronk]

I think it's a conspiracy to force people to misspell all these lighting technologies by making them all really difficult to spell. That makes everyone feel dumb and makes them more submissive - just like chemtrails and immunizations. :-P

[Yoink]

Re the right-wing "The Government is Trying to Poison Us on the orders of Al Gore" circle-jerk behind the anti-CFL propaganda, it's worth checking this Snopes page. (http://forums.randi.org/Re%20the%20right-wing%20) In sum, the whole "you have to call in a HAZMAT team whenever you break a bulb" story is nonsense.

[rcronk]

People probably got the hazmat issue confused with mercury thermometer spills whose instructions for cleanup are on the same page I cited in the OP: "Contact your local health department, municipal waste authority or your local fire department for proper disposal in accordance with local, state and federal laws." And then if you spill more than 2 tablespoons (uh, a lot more than a CFL or a thermometer, but still...), "it is mandatory to call the National Response Center (NRC) (http://www.nrc.uscg.mil/index.htm)"

Even if you don't have to call hazmat, the EPA's bulb break cleanup instructions in the link in the OP are pretty amazing - I don't want that crap near my children.

[Dan O.]

It might be interesting to investigate the supply side of mercury. The vast majority of mercury is a byproduct of the mining industry. Before the 90's, about 6000 tons/yr came from mining but in 1991 that suddenly dropped in half and has continued to drop ever sense. The amount of mining hasn't decreased so that means all the mercury that used to be recovered and removed from the environment is now left behind in the tailings. Is this the result of the environmental movement to block the commercial use of mercury?

[technoextreme]

People probably got the hazmat issue confused with mercury thermometer spills whose instructions for cleanup are on the same page I cited in the OP: "Contact your local health department, municipal waste authority or your local fire department for proper disposal in accordance with local, state and federal laws."

Why though? The process is really simple. Bring the thermometer to the dump.
Even if you don't have to call hazmat, the EPA's bulb break cleanup instructions in the link in the OP are pretty amazing - I don't want that crap near my children.
Your kids eat more mercury than what is in the light bulb. The only reason why those rules are there is not because of health concerns more than it's tantamount to chucking your car batteries into the garbage. It's a dumb idea because it will cause problems with the environment. Either that or I have been very unlucky. I installed 5 CFLs in my basement / workshop about 2 years ago. One was DOA, and 2 have died in that time period. These are major brand: Sylvania not the cheap ones that I gave up on a long time ago. I have had better luck with the 48 in fluorescent tubes, they don't fail completely, but they seem to lose light output over time.
The most logical explanation is that the mercury in the light bulbs is decreasing. Nowadays most cfls fail because of the lack of the mercury to fuel the cfl.

[rcronk]

Why though? The process is really simple. Bring the thermometer to the dump.

Your kids eat more mercury than what is in the light bulb. The only reason why those rules are there is not because of health concerns more than it's tantamount to chucking your car batteries into the garbage. It's a dumb idea because it will cause problems with the environment.
The most logical explanation is that the mercury in the light bulbs is decreasing. Nowadays most cfls fail because of the lack of the mercury to fuel the cfl.

I guess the "why" would deal with wanting to obey the law or something.

Please post your sources for the claim that my kids "eat more mercury than what is in the light bulb."

[technoextreme]

I guess the "why" would deal with wanting to obey the law or something.

That's not obeying the law. That's being an idiot.

[marting]

A pound of Mercury is around two tablespoons. The stuff is dense. So you have to call in if you spill over 1 pound of Hg. Gee.

A small medical thermometer has far more mercury than a hundred cfls. This explains the more intense procedures.

[rcronk]

That's not obeying the law. That's being an idiot.

I guess you can say whatever you want to, but it doesn't change reality.

[alfaniner]

I guess everyone's talking strictly about household lighting and not other applications.

I use a number of different illuminated juggling props. For a long time I used this lighted wire stuff. It's a central wire coated with phosphorus surrounded by a spiral of two extraordinarily thin wires. You pass an alternating current from the thin wires to the central wire and the phosphorus lights up like a TV screen. I used those for a long time, but they were heavy (batteries PLUS a voltage inverter), and the solders on the thin wires were extremely fragile.
... .

I saw a "human-powered" remote control somewhere on Instructables.com. You simply had to shake it to build up the charge so you could use it. Seems like the process of juggling might do the same thing? (Although it might add some weight to the props.)

[soylent]

No option for already using fluorescent tubes? I can't stand the yellow lighting from incandescents and went and got myself some (not compact)fluorescent tubes with 5800 K colour temperature(i.e. slightly bluish, daylight).

Halogen lights simply suck. Too much heat and they burn out too quickly.

They last longer than incandescents and they're a good bit more efficient. They can be turned on and off as much as you like without problem(unlike flourescents), which makes them good for bathrooms, garages, storage rooms etc.

[Dr. Trintignant]

Now this is what I'm talking about:
http://www.news.com/Luxims-tiny-but-powerful-plasma-lightbulb/1606-2_3-6234653.html

Very efficient, quick startup, full-spectrum, and "infinite" life. It sounds as if they're targeting the projector and streetlight market at first, but home use would be great if the costs could be reduced.

- Dr. Trintignant

[Soapy Sam]

That's impressive. I wonder if a light can be TOO bright for home use. There has to be a point where it actually becomes a risk to eyesight.

[luchog]

That's impressive. I wonder if a light can be TOO bright for home use. There has to be a point where it actually becomes a risk to eyesight.
It's primarily the UV that does the majority damage. If there's no UV, then it would have to be extraordinarily bright to cause damage. Pretty close to full sunlight bright. At the the point where it could cause damage, it'd be extremely difficult to look at for more than short periods without causing actual pain.

[Dr. Trintignant]

That's impressive. I wonder if a light can be TOO bright for home use. There has to be a point where it actually becomes a risk to eyesight.

There are two possible problems that I can think of in relation to this. First is that it's too much of a "point source", and that the surface brightness would be so high that it could cause eye damage. However, diffusers could take care of that.

The other possibility is that the device output can't be scaled down much further than what they showed. At 250 watts and 140 lumens/watt, you get 35,000 lumens, which is huge compared to a typical incandescent at around 1500 lumens. One solution here is to have a single light source for the whole house and pipe the light around as needed with fiber optics or something. That's not a great solution since there's not much fine-grained control, but given the efficiency it might work out ok.

- Dr. Trintignant

[Cuddles]

The other possibility is that the device output can't be scaled down much further than what they showed. At 250 watts and 140 lumens/watt, you get 35,000 lumens, which is huge compared to a typical incandescent at around 1500 lumens. One solution here is to have a single light source for the whole house and pipe the light around as needed with fiber optics or something. That's not a great solution since there's not much fine-grained control, but given the efficiency it might work out ok.

- Dr. Trintignant

If it can't be scaled down any further, it's pretty much useless for home use. The whole point of modern development in lighting has been to reduce energy use and waste. We've gone from using 60-100W bulbs to using just a few Watts, and it should get even lower with LEDs. Replacing these with 250W lights really wouldn't help matters.

[soylent]

Now this is what I'm talking about:
http://www.news.com/Luxims-tiny-but-powerful-plasma-lightbulb/1606-2_3-6234653.html

Very efficient, quick startup, full-spectrum, and "infinite" life. It sounds as if they're targeting the projector and streetlight market at first, but home use would be great if the costs could be reduced.

- Dr. Trintignant

Many if not most people are used to their 3000 K spectrum and prefer their lighting to be yellow.

[Dr. Trintignant]

If it can't be scaled down any further, it's pretty much useless for home use. The whole point of modern development in lighting has been to reduce energy use and waste. We've gone from using 60-100W bulbs to using just a few Watts, and it should get even lower with LEDs. Replacing these with 250W lights really wouldn't help matters.

The point is that you could have a single 250 W bulb for the entire house, and pipe the light around as needed--similar to central heating or air conditioning. Perhaps that is still too much light for a small apartment, but my 2-bed condo easily has 250 W worth of compact fluorescents on at night. Even if I couldn't decrease the total wattage, I would gladly take the increased light output and superior color spectrum. In fact, given my electricity prices, 250 W is just about at the point where I stop caring about costs and focus my attention on other effects.

- Dr. Trintignant

[Dr. Trintignant]

Many if not most people are used to their 3000 K spectrum and prefer their lighting to be yellow.

Then they can put ugly yellow shades on their lights--it'll still be more efficient :).

It's hard to see how anyone could not prefer a ~6000 K spectrum after a small adjustment period. After all, our eyes evolved under daylight. I'd be surprised if there's even been any significant evolution since man's control over fire.

One thought is that our interior color schemes might be tuned for 3000 K lighting and not look so good at 6000 K, but they seem to look fine during the day, right?

Do recall that the color temperatures reported on fluorescent lights are not exactly accurate because the CRI is so low in the first place. It may be that a 4200 K light with a particular CRI looks better than a 6000 K fluorescent with a different CRI. But neither of these will come close to a true blackbody spectrum like the sun.

- Dr. Trintignant

[marting]

But neither of these will come close to a true blackbody spectrum like the sun.

The Sun's spectrum is not all that similar to a "black body" but it is a lot smoother than even the best fluorescents. That said, some of the higher end fluorescents have CRI's over 90 and these are pretty good. That is, the eye's cone responses with typical colored objects, is quite similar between these fluorescents and sunlight (aside from Kelvin temp).


T8's are about 5,000Kelvin and just a tad bluer than sunlight only and a tad redder than sunlight combined with clear sky and they have a CRI over 90.

[marting]

There is also a psychological effect where the brighter the light, the higher the Kelvin equiv. that is seen as "White" Probably related to dusk/dawn being lower light levels as well as "redder" light.

Thus, monitor screens run at 6500 to 7500K and still looke "white" because they are brighter than the surrounds.

[Michelle Lyon]

We should all go back to candelabras.

[Dr. Trintignant]

The Sun's spectrum is not all that similar to a "black body" but it is a lot smoother than even the best fluorescents.

I suppose this is a semantic difference but I'd say the sun is very close to a black body. Sure, it's quite spiky, and Earth's atmosphere absorbs some big chunks, but within the visible range it's very close. At the least there are no big gaps in the spectrum.

That said, some of the higher end fluorescents have CRI's over 90 and these are pretty good. That is, the eye's cone responses with typical colored objects, is quite similar between these fluorescents and sunlight (aside from Kelvin temp).

Interesting; I wasn't aware that fluorescents got that good nowadays. However, it appears that the high CRI fluorescents are uncommon/unavailable in compact form and have slightly reduced efficiency. So this development is still pretty interesting. I'll have to see if I can acquire some of those high CRI CFLs, though.

- Dr. Trintignant

[marting]

I suppose this is a semantic difference but I'd say the sun is very close to a black body. Sure, it's quite spiky, and Earth's atmosphere absorbs some big chunks, but within the visible range it's very close. At the least there are no big gaps in the spectrum.

Lot's of narrow ones though. But you are right that, when integrated with the human cone response, it is, for all normal intents, a "black body."


Interesting; I wasn't aware that fluorescents got that good nowadays. However, it appears that the high CRI fluorescents are uncommon/unavailable in compact form and have slightly reduced efficiency. So this development is still pretty interesting. I'll have to see if I can acquire some of those high CRI CFLs, though.

Not sure about the efficiency but I think the problem is the more expensive phosphors. There are actually some that are designed to produce more color saturation than a standard black body. Turns out that if you have broad spikes distributed at the right points the percieved colors for most objects generally appear more saturated. These are then further optimized towards attractiveness of food, skin color, etc.

So there are environments where special, color enhancing, but lower CRI fluorescents are used specifically to produce more pleasing visuals.

This is similar to film image printing where it is common to remap colors and tone to make them more saturated and pleasing under typical viewing conditions.

[Pato2747]

One of my friends at school, a bunch of years ago, threw a metal spoon to a fan, and it bounced and hit a fluorescent tube, making it fall and break nearly instantly. The cleaning guy just showed up and cleaned the glass, we didn't cleared the room.

I have both fluorescent and incandescent lights. Although, I'm on Argentina, and I'm not sure if this law will also apply in 2014. But let's be honest and face it: The future is near. The incandescent light era is starting to slowly fade.

[The Gnomon]

I have begun to switch to LEDs wherever possible. There are, however, several problems I have encountered (aside from cost, which is amazing).
1. Many are just not bright enough. It takes careful reading of the specs- pay attention to the lumen rating, not the "watt equivalent" rating- to get what you need for adequate lighting. The smaller ones can be useful for small lights and for spot lighting of pictures, as well as night-lights.
2. The color spectrum (as described in previous posts) is narrow, producing an effect similar to that of street lights (mercury, particularly) in which there appears to be enough light, but it just doesn't look right. The "warm white" is achieved in some by placing an amber filter over the source; not very efficient. I have seen, on a cruise ship, large arrays of red, green, blue and white LEDs (apparently 1-watt) which produced a satisfactory wide-spectrum illumination. I have not found these commercially available. I am hoping that someone will market a similar product contained in a single "bulb."
3. Many of my lights are controlled by dimmers, mostly X-10-controlled, which work well with incandencents, poorly with fluorescents, and badly with many LEDs. The LED problem is that, when the dimmer is at it's "off" setting, the bulbs nonetheless flicker at ~1 per 1-2 second flashes; this combination of those LED bulbs and the dimmers is therefore unusable.
4. Continuing the "dimmer" theme; in order to have some control of lighting intensity (useful for various purposes, e.g. bathroom lights which come on dim when one gets up at 0200, but bright when needed at other times) it appears that I will have to add an additional circuit to each fixture, and install one bright light and one dim one, with "1-2-both" controlling switch. I may be able to work around this by installing two X-10 on-off controls at the fixture, and use an X-10 wall controller with the necessary settings, avoiding having to run an additional set of wires through the wall and ceiling. I expect such setups may be eventually marketed, but are not presently available for the end-user. (If I have to run additional wiring, I will replace the fixtures and bulbs with a 12-volt setup; the "I^2 R" loss is not as significant at the low current of LEDs as it is with incandencents.)
5. Outside floodlights, and 12-v decorator-landscape lights are very suitable for being replaced by LEDs. I use these in several areas. I also use 110V LED amber bulbs for decorative outside lighting on entrance posts, etc. I use 12V LED lights for illuminating steps. These are durable, efficient and effective.
6. I am sensitive to flicker; even 50-cycle incandencents have, to me, noticeable flicker. I notice, but have learned to not be bothered by, the "rainbow" effect of my HD LCD projector. BUT I have not had any noticable flicker from my LED bulbs. I suspect that this is due to the power system incorporated into the base of the bulbs; presumably it has a capacitor on the DC output which avoids this problem. I recommend a DC-DC regulator be used for auto tail-lights; I agree the flicker is annoying.
7. LED flashlights are, for me, standard. I have modified all my flashlights to use LEDs. The battery life offsets the cost. The bulb life is an extra bonus.

If I were to design my house lighting "from scratch" at this time, I would wire it up for 12VDC LED lighting; retrofitting, however, is a more difficult issue.
I expect the availability of LED lighting to increase rapidly, as fuel/electricity costs continue to rise.

I look forward to a time when my solar electric equipment (currently supplying an average of 17 KWH/day) will totally supply my electric needs, facilitated by efficient refrigeration, LED lights, and lower power-demand audio-visual-electronic-computer technology.