Can you get a deiseas from innoculations?

[SquishyDave]

There was an FAQ on meningococcal that someone at work was letting us know about, and one of the questions was "can you get meningococcal from the vaccine?" I scoffed at this as a stupid question, but a workmate then scoffed at me, saying why not? You inject the problem into you, that's what a vaccine is, and I said, but you inject the empty shell of the problem....

What? Oh the point?

Is it possible to get the thing the vaccine is supposed protect you against? Either now, or at any time in the past?

Thanks.

[Yahweh]

I did a quick WebMD search...

Some article about smallpox vaccinations (http://my.webmd.com/content/article/67/80073.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}):
The study found 95% of the participants had a successful immune reaction to the undiluted smallpox vaccine. Only 3%-7% developed either a generalized or local rash from the vaccination, all of which resolved without scarring and were found to be negative for vaccinia, the virus that can be caused by the vaccine itself.

I'm just speaking out of my ass here, but it seems likely you could catch the disease you are trying to prevent from the very inoculation. I dont know the odds, but maybe one or two of the virii bits arent quite rendered harmless, maybe they mutated slightly, maybe the doctors are playing a horrible trick on you-WHO KNOWS?

[SquishyDave]

Dammit, I've horribly misspelt diseases in my thread title.

Poo:o

Hmmm thanks oh mighty deity, that does suggest it might be possible, maybe a medical type person *cough*thirdtwin*cough* might know this for sure. ;)

[reprise]

Not all vaccines are "live" vaccines. Even those vaccines which are live are often attentuated (weakened) strains of the virus, or have been genetically modified in a manner which means that you can't catch the disease from the vaccination but your body will produce antibodies to a "signature" and will mount an immune response to that signature should it ever encounter the complete antigen.

Those with immune system problems are often advised against being immunised with "live" vaccines.

Diptheria protein is a component of the Meningococcal C vaccine, just to make everything even more confusing. :D

[SquishyDave]

Merryl! Long time no see. Hows things?

On topic, so what you're saying is, it's the live vaccines that have a small chance of giving you the very thing you want to avoid? But the other types have some sort of nifty sciencey type re-working so you can't get the disease, but can build up an immunity to it coz it's close enough?

Hopefully that makes sense. :)

[reprise]

Originally posted by SquishyDave
Merryl! Long time no see. Hows things?

On topic, so what you're saying is, it's the live vaccines that have a small chance of giving you the very thing you want to avoid? But the other types have some sort of nifty sciencey type re-working so you can't get the disease, but can build up an immunity to it coz it's close enough?

Hopefully that makes sense. :)

It's a bit more complicated than that, but essentially that's a pretty accurate summary. Sometimes you can use one live vaccine to prevent another disease and you do that deliberately. Smallpox is a classic example. People were deliberately infected with the comparatively mild cow pox, which conferred immunity to the far more virulent and lethal smallpox.

Interestingly, we sometimes choose a live vaccine over a dead one. Australia did this with respect to polio. We replaced the "dead" Salk vaccine with the "live" Sabin vaccine (largely because of the ease of administering Sabin). IIRC, there were some cases of polio which could only have been attributed to use of the live vaccine. IIRC, Salk is the vaccine of choice for some specific patients. This is because we have eliminated polio as a childhood disease in this country. The chances of people contracting it "in the wild" are negligible, so the "vaccination risk versus non-vaccination risk" equation has changed dramatically since even my own childhood, and where indicated we use Salk to eliminate the risk of vaccine induced polio entirely.

[BTox]

Originally posted by SquishyDave
There was an FAQ on meningococcal that someone at work was letting us know about, and one of the questions was "can you get meningococcal from the vaccine?" I scoffed at this as a stupid question, but a workmate then scoffed at me, saying why not? You inject the problem into you, that's what a vaccine is, and I said, but you inject the empty shell of the problem....

What? Oh the point?

Is it possible to get the thing the vaccine is supposed protect you against? Either now, or at any time in the past?

Thanks.

It is only possible to get the disease from a vaccine that uses live attenuated virus vaccines, and even then, only very rarely. In the U.S., the only cases of polio in the 80s and 90s were coming from the vaccine, and at a rate of ~8 per year (1 out of every 2.5 million vaccinated people). CDC recommended switching to an inactivated virus vaccine and since then no more cases have been reported.

Regarding meningococcal vaccine, since it does not contain any live organisms (same with all bacterial vaccines I believe) it is impossible to get the disease.

[reprise]

Originally posted by BTox


It is only possible to get the disease from a vaccine that uses live attenuated virus vaccines, and even then, only very rarely. In the U.S., the only cases of polio in the 80s and 90s were coming from the vaccine, and at a rate of ~8 per year (1 out of every 2.5 million vaccinated people). CDC recommended switching to an inactivated virus vaccine and since then no more cases have been reported.

Regarding meningococcal vaccine, since it does not contain any live organisms (same with all bacterial vaccines I believe) it is impossible to get the disease.

So CDC now recommends Salk over Sabin?

Interesting. The childhood immunisation schedule here still routinely gives Sabin EXCEPT in cases where Sabin is contraindicated. None of my friends who've had babies lately have mentioned that their children are no longer being given an oral vaccine for polio prevention but rather being given injections. I'll go check out the DOH current guidelines, but I'm pretty sure that the standard vaccine administered for polio prevention in Australia is still Sabin.

FWIW, I didn't say that the use of live vaccines is never justified. What I said was that the risk profile changes as a disease is erradicated and that polio vaccination provides a good example of this. When polio was endemic, then the risk of live vaccination was "acceptable" when balanced against the possibility of contracting the disease and suffering morbidity or mortality as a consequence. Now that polio is an "orphan" disease in my nation, there is little justification for continuing to use the live vaccine in preference to the "dead" vaccine.

]The specific vaccine being used for Meningococcal C prevention in Australia (http://www.dhs.sa.gov.au/pehs/Immunisation/mencvacc_fact_sheet.pdf+%22Meningococcal+C+meningi tis%22&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8[/url)

[SquishyDave]

Wow reprise, I had no idea you were so learned, smart I knew, but all these big words...wow :)

[BTox]

Originally posted by reprise


So CDC now recommends Salk over Sabin?

Interesting. The childhood immunisation schedule here still routinely gives Sabin EXCEPT in cases where Sabin is contraindicated. None of my friends who've had babies lately have mentioned that their children are no longer being given an oral vaccine for polio prevention but rather being given injections. I'll go check out the DOH current guidelines, but I'm pretty sure that the standard vaccine administered for polio prevention in Australia is still Sabin.



Yes, here is the reco from CDC:

cdc reco for polio vaccination (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr4905a1.htm)

[Eos of the Eons]

My son got the oral vaccine for polio 11 years ago. My daughter has been getting injections.

It's impossible to get smallpox from the smallpox vaccine because it's cowpox. You can get a localized rash of cowpox, but you will never ever ever break out in smallpox.

I don't know a single vaccine that uses live vaccines anymore.

I'd say it is impossible to get any disease from a vaccine. Some people are saying chickenpox vaccines are causing outbreaks. Well, from what I've actually found on it-the vaccine is only so effective-so the kid can still pick up chickenpox from another kid. The vaccinated kid will still have a less severe case of chickenpox. They won't get an outbreak from the vaccine though.


It is also impossible to get shingles from a chickenpox vaccine. You can only get shingles if you've already had chickenpox and you have a compromised immune system.

There is so much crap out there on vaccines that people are getting confused. I can't blame them. I'm just glad they are asking questions instead of just swallowing all the crap.

[espritch]

Just a minor point. Some people have allergic reactions to vaccines and these can be potentially fatal. I don't know what the percentage of people vaccinated who have such reactions is but I suspect it is greater than the number who contract disease from vaccines. So if you want to worry about the risk posed by vaccines, that might be the one to consider.

In any event, the risk posed by vaccines is far far less than the risk posed by people not being vaccinated. I heard a story on NPR recently about Muslim communities in India where polio is still a major problem despite efforts to erradicate it. The reason for it's persistence is a rumour widely circulated in these communities that the vaccine is actually a plot by the Indian goverment to sterilize Muslim children. :rolleyes:

[HopkinsMedStudent]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
I don't know a single vaccine that uses live vaccines anymore.


Mumps and measles vaccines are both live, attenuated versions.

[reprise]

Originally posted by SquishyDave
Wow reprise, I had no idea you were so learned, smart I knew, but all these big words...wow :)

lol

[Deetee]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
My son got the oral vaccine for polio 11 years ago. My daughter has been getting injections.

It's impossible to get smallpox from the smallpox vaccine because it's cowpox. You can get a localized rash of cowpox, but you will never ever ever break out in smallpox.

Actually, vaccinia virus is not cow pox. No-one is quite sure what it is exactly.


If you give live attenuated vaccines, there is always a risk of an attenuated illness caused by the organism given. Very rarely this can be severe, or as has been pointed out earlier, if the virus is insufficiently attenuated, the actual disease one is trying to prevent can result (eg polio)

[Eos of the Eons]

They had to get vaccinia from somewhere. It didn't just drop in their laps. Whether it is a different form of cowpox or not, it is not smallpox.

This occurred only in immunocompromised individuals with deficiencies in their cell-mediated immune system. There were only about 1.6 cases of progressive vaccinia per million vaccinations reported. See picture below for clinical manifestation of progressive vaccinia.

This case they showed only occured in an immunosuppressed person.

There's your stat. 1.6 per million. And they usually have a condition healthy individuals don't have. The allergic reactions are one in a million as well. Everyone who has had an allergic reaction in the last 10 years for sure had a full recovery. I can get the article if ya want, but it's already posted on the forum somewhere.

[EvilYeti]

I've seen shanek claim vaccinations caused his son's autism. Shanek has also claimed that astrology can be used to predict El Nino's, so I would take anything he says with a grain of salt.

[Eos of the Eons]

They've showed a billion times over that no vaccine can cause autism. I'm so ($&#($@#_@_#@$ sick of hearing that!!

Damn Wakefield!

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
The allergic reactions are one in a million as well. Everyone who has had an allergic reaction in the last 10 years for sure had a full recovery. I can get the article if ya want, but it's already posted on the forum somewhere.

Moreover, the U.S. maintains an adverse reactions database for vaccination. Doctors who suspect a vaccination responsible for adverse reactions in a patient are encouraged to report into this system. The claims of adverse reactions somehow always manage to greatly exceed what gets reported. And sometimes, as in the smallpox vaccine case, the claims defy known science.

Cheers,

[Professor Frink]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
I'd say it is impossible to get any disease from a vaccine. Some people are saying chickenpox vaccines are causing outbreaks. Well, from what I've actually found on it-the vaccine is only so effective-so the kid can still pick up chickenpox from another kid. The vaccinated kid will still have a less severe case of chickenpox. They won't get an outbreak from the vaccine though.


It is common for one-year-olds who get the chicken pox vaccine to get chicken-pox-like spots on their bodies about a week or 10 days after the shot. My younger son did. It's a common side-effect, they tell you it might happen at the time you get the shots.

And no, there is no causal link between vaccinations and autism, contrary to what my sister insists.

Frink

[Eos of the Eons]

My sons got the pox shots and they had no such spots. My daughter got it today, I'll let you know how it goes. She still can't spread the pox by the shot and cause an outbreak though.

[Professor Frink]

I misspoke in my earlier post - my older son got the spots and had a bad fever the night of the shots, fighting off whatever it is that kids fight off for that set of shots.

My younger son had neither spots nor a fever, and breezed through it all without a hitch. They can't predict if it will happen, it just happens to some and not others.

Frink

[Eos of the Eons]

Maybe the one got the live pox shot and the infection was mild because the virus was attenuated? This infection from the vaccine will provide him immunity, but he still showed signs of it. The other may have gotten a shot with viruses that were unable to replicate and cause spots. Or his immune system fought them off more efficiently? I can't say, only the people making the vaccines would be able to tell you. You can find out if your sons got live pox shots or just pox particles. The pox particles can never cause spots. Or maybe your son was exposed to the virus somehow around the time he got the shot?

My daughter got her shots close to 11 am. It is now after 7 pm and still just a mild fever. No spots.

[Professor Frink]

Awww, geez. I am totally screwed up on this one - the one year shots are the MMR, not the chicken pox. My bad. The measles part of the vaccination is what occasionally causes the spots.

Anyway, nice to hear some REAL discussion about it instead of media hysteria. Even if I can't tell the difference between chicken pox and measles.

Frink

[Eos of the Eons]

You can get the chicken pox one at one year if they offer it or you request it. My daughter got MMR and chickenpox today. She is 12 months old.

I know what you mean about media crap. I forget the name of this one anti-vaxxer in the US that was hyped for a while. She ended up getting her daughter a vaccine and finally shut up.

[Eos of the Eons]

Here's some no-nonsense stuff on vaccines

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/6mishome.htm#Diseaseshadalready


Risk from Disease versus Risk from Vaccines

Causes/effects of Disease:

after getting Measles
Pneumonia: 6 in 100
Encephalitis: 1 in 1,000
Death: 2 in 1,000

after getting Rubella
Congenital Rubella Syndrome: 1 in 4 (if woman becomes infected early in pregnancy)
_____________________________
Symptoms of MMR Vaccine that prevents above 2 diseases:
Encephalitis or severe allergic reaction:
1 in 1,000,000



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Death/causes by DISEASE:

After getting Diphtheria
Death: 1 in 20

After getting Tetanus:
Death: 2 in 10

After getting Pertussis:
Pneumonia: 1 in 8
Encephalitis: 1 in 20
Death: 1 in 200


____________________________________
Symptoms after DTaP VACCINES that prevents above 3 diseases :

Continuous crying, then full recovery: 1 in 1000
Convulsions or shock, then full recovery: 1 in 14,000
Acute encephalopathy: 0-10.5 in 1,000,000 (claims unproven/controversial-hence the 0)

Death: None proven