UK government strongarms voluntary plastic bag charge

[Francesca R]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7270358.stm

Marks & Spencer seems to have taken the lead in levying a 5p charge on plastic shopping bags effective in May. The government seems to be hoping that public opinion will be sufficiently supportive of this type of measure so that compulsion is unnecessary. I think that has a reasonable probability. However Brown wants to help it on its way with the vague threat of an official tax.

The Irish republic has had a government-imposed tax (EUR 0.15) on plastic bags for about six years.

Any views, cares?

[Ian Osborne]

Sounds good to me. I like to reuse carrier bags as bin liners, but even then I end up throwing out a lot. A small levy on carrier bags might encourage people to reuse, or switch to cheap cotton bags.

[richardm]

Or we could try putting the boot on the other foot and ban the use of non-biodegradable bags. Although I daresay any extra cost involved there would still be passed on to the customer.

[Ian Osborne]

Whatever happened to biodegradable 'plastic' carrier bags? I remember when I was a kid, there was a display in the Birmingham Science Museum showing the then-new invention in various stages of decomposition. Why haven't they caught on?

[Professor Yaffle]

Leading the way? Humph, Aldi and Lidl have been charging 3p for plastic bags for ages!

[Professor Yaffle]

Whatever happened to biodegradable 'plastic' carrier bags? I remember when I was a kid, there was a display in the Birmingham Science Museum showing the then-new invention in various stages of decomposition. Why haven't they caught on?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4758419.stm

[Francesca R]

Leading the way? Humph, Aldi and Lidl have been charging 3p for plastic bags for ages!Sure, I'll concede that (especially since I didn't research that statement). I remember that Sainsbury's used to run a scheme where they would give you a 1p refund if you re-used a bag and did not demand a new one. But I thought they had scrapped it. The incentive seemed to be far too small to have an influence for someone spending $10 and up on shopping.

The branches of M&S near where I work have large food-halls that do a brisk trade in take-away sandwiches and lunch items and that is the area where I think bag use is the least necessary (people carry a bag with three things in it for 100 metres back to their office, then bin it, every day) and where there can be the biggest reductions.

[richardm]

Whatever happened to biodegradable 'plastic' carrier bags?

As well as the Tesco plan, the Co-Op have been using them for a few years now. I don't know why the uptake hasn't been faster.

On the subject of charging, when our local Safeway transmogrified into Morrisons they instituted a charge of (I think) 5p per carrier bag. The universal reaction from the customers was one of total disbelief, and after a couple of weeks of glaring and dark mutterings the charge was dropped.

The buggers still make me find a pound coin for the honour of using a trolley though.

[zooterkin]

The Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=522765&in_page_id=1770) is claiming credit for this. I can't help feeling that otherwise they'd be ridiculing the whole thing as being some sort of left-wing, PC plot.

The Prime Minister will introduce legislation next month to impose a charge of 5p or even more on all giveaway bags next year if they fail to comply.

And today he throws his weight behind the Daily Mail's landmark "Banish the Bags" campaign with an impassioned plea to retailers.


I can't help feeling that what Tesco do is more likely to work, giving bonus loyalty points if you re-use a bag.

[Lothian]

The Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=522765&in_page_id=1770) is claiming credit for this. I can't help feeling that otherwise they'd be ridiculing the whole thing as being some sort of left-wing, PC plot.The Daily Mail dumping the traditional British plaggy bag. Next you will be telling me the Mail is priced in Euros.

[Ian Osborne]

The Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=522765&in_page_id=1770) is claiming credit for this. I can't help feeling that otherwise they'd be ridiculing the whole thing as being some sort of left-wing, PC plot.

Quite! :D

And as the Daily Mail campaign only started this week, the government must've reacted pretty quickly if it was the paper that spurred them into action. Far more likely the Mail benefitted from some seriously serendipitous timing.

[666]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7270358.stm

Marks & Spencer seems to have taken the lead in levying a 5p charge on plastic shopping bags effective in May.

Down here (in deepest Devon) M&S has been trialling this for a while now. Customers have not rioted, so the idea will be rolled-out countrywide.

It's difficult to see how legislation could be introduced to outlaw plastic bags completely. I think that a unit tax is the way to go. We use old ones as bin liners but I'm sure we could become accustomed to using paper sacks instead.

[Cuddles]

Whatever happened to biodegradable 'plastic' carrier bags? I remember when I was a kid, there was a display in the Birmingham Science Museum showing the then-new invention in various stages of decomposition. Why haven't they caught on?

Notice that they're not biodegradeable, they're just degradeable. The ones Tesco use at least. While they claim, as Prof Yaffle's link says, that they turn into harmless water and carbon dioxide (like we need more of that) after 60 days, what they actually do is disintegrate into a pile of little bits of plastic after a couple of years. I suspect this may have something to do with why they haven't caught on.

I can't help feeling that what Tesco do is more likely to work, giving bonus loyalty points if you re-use a bag.

Unfortunately, what Tesco seem to do is give bonus loyalty points if you reuse one of their bags. If you use, say, an old rucksac, they just don't care.

And as the Daily Mail campaign only started this week, the government must've reacted pretty quickly if it was the paper that spurred them into action. Far more likely the Mail benefitted from some seriously serendipitous timing.

Or, even more likely, they knew the announcement was coming and wanted to get in there first so it looked like they thought of it.

[Ian Osborne]

Or, even more likely, they knew the announcement was coming and wanted to get in there first so it looked like they thought of it.

Good point. It will be interesting to read the next issue of Private Eye.

[Nick Bogaerts]

By far the simplest is to do away with those bags altogether. People quickly get into the habit of bringing their reusable bags with them.

[Francesca R]

Down here (in deepest Devon) M&S has been trialling this for a while now. Customers have not rioted, so the idea will be rolled-out countrywide.Yes I read this had been trialled in the SW of England and in N Ireland. I assumed that people were piling into their 4X4s and driving up to Hampshire to shop ;)

It's difficult to see how legislation could be introduced to outlaw plastic bags completely. I think that a unit tax is the way to go. We use old ones as bin liners but I'm sure we could become accustomed to using paper sacks instead.There's no real need to criminalise plastic bags, just to cut down on what appears to be easy-to-avoid waste, in the public interest.

Unfortunately, what Tesco seem to do is give bonus loyalty points if you reuse one of their bags. If you use, say, an old rucksac, they just don't care.That was what Sainsburys did, though the loyalty reward was a pittance. It misses the point because it implies that they are trying to boost demand for their bags.

I'm sure the government would regard it as a big victory if they managed to engineer "voluntary" taxation in this way (albeit the revenue does not go to the government) so that they could claim that consumers demanded it rather than nanny-statism. I actually think that is quite close to the truth (consumers are largely supportive, and see it as a "polluter pays" measure), but not completely. Probably not enough for libertarians to like this . . .

[Beerina]

The purpose of this tax is what? To reduce plastic usage? To reduce plastic bags blowing around? To reduce the number of stupid birds or otters choking on the bags?

Does plastic bag manufacturing even show up on the radar statistically for plastic usage?

[zooterkin]

Unfortunately, what Tesco seem to do is give bonus loyalty points if you reuse one of their bags. If you use, say, an old rucksac, they just don't care.
Our local Tescos don't seem to care which bags you use, only how many.



Or, even more likely, they knew the announcement was coming and wanted to get in there first so it looked like they thought of it.

So cynical! ;)

[JonWhite]

Whilst it may (perhaps) cause someone to think twice about getting a bag just to carry their M&S sandwich, with the kind of money spent on a weekly shop nowadays is anyone really gonna care about spending twenty or thirty pence extra on the convenience of bags?

[Soapy Sam]

A while ago, I needed cardboard boxes to move books.
I asked at ASDA if they had any.
"No. We incinerate them".

[tkingdoll]

Last year the government purchased almost one million plastic carrier bags for marketing and promotional purposes.

So they can shut their stupid mouths, frankly.

[Rat]

I'm with Yaffle. The news on the BBC radio this morning said that M&S were to become the first major supermarket to start charging for carrier bags, which came as a surprise to me after all the years of buying beer at Kwik Save (2p for a crinkly one or 5p for a quality one).

[Ian Osborne]

I'm with Yaffle. The news on the BBC radio this morning said that M&S were to become the first major supermarket to start charging for carrier bags, which came as a surprise to me after all the years of buying beer at Kwik Save (2p for a crinkly one or 5p for a quality one).

Yes, I remember Kwik Save doing it when I lived in Ludlow - about 15 years ago now. They even put up notices explaining that there's no such thing as a free carrier bag, and stores that give them away recoup the cost on the prices.

[Rat]

And of course Kwik Save proved the worth of telling the truth to their customers by going bankrupt last year. Although, of course, that may also have been related to their selling crap and being unable to stock shelves. But they were good for cheap beer.

[Ian Osborne]

And of course Kwik Save proved the worth of telling the truth to their customers by going bankrupt last year. Although, of course, that may also have been related to their selling crap and being unable to stock shelves. But they were good for cheap beer.

That's the reason. Kwik Save Ludlow was great for one-item shopping, like cheap crisps, baked beans or indeed beer (stay away from the bread, it tasted like polystyrene). But you simply couldn't do your weekly grocery shop there as there would always be something missing you had to go somewhere else for. As I was living on my own in a bedsit located not far from the Kwik Save I went in there quite a lot, but it wasn't a one-stop shop for families and households, and that's where the money is.

[Francesca R]

Last year the government purchased almost one million plastic carrier bags for marketing and promotional purposes.

So they can shut their stupid mouths, frankly.You skirt past an interesting point, which is that food stores have typically spent money on bags with their logo on for marketing reasons, so one could argue what business is it of government to influence how they choose to market themselves.

However, the notion that plastic bag consumption creates negative externalities that should be legislated against (with banning or the extraction of compensation) seems to be taking hold.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7268960.stm

[Francesca R]

Does plastic bag manufacturing even show up on the radar statistically for plastic usage?I don't know. Good question.

[JonWhite]

James Lovelock certainly thinks it's too little too late:

"On the day we meet, the Daily Mail has launched a campaign to rid Britain of plastic shopping bags. The initiative sits comfortably within the current canon of eco ideas, next to ethical consumption, carbon offsetting, recycling and so on - all of which are premised on the calculation that individual lifestyle adjustments can still save the planet. This is, Lovelock says, a deluded fantasy."

From here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2008/mar/01/scienceofclimatechange.climatechange).

[richardm]

Last year the government purchased almost one million plastic carrier bags for marketing and promotional purposes.

So they can shut their stupid mouths, frankly.

To be fair to them they acted quickly once this was pointed out to them (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/mar/01/plasticbags.greenpolitics).

To be unfair to them they should have thought of this themselves ;)

[Beerina]

Has anybody been able to determine the actual purpose of this law?

I presume there will also be studies to demonstrate its efficacy to that end.


Again, I'll hold my breath while I wait.

[JonWhite]

Has anybody been able to determine the actual purpose of this law?


Err...as a fairly pointless but populist gesture by our Gordy so as to ingratiate himself further among the Daily Mail readership, on an issue with no fear of some political comeback?


I presume there will also be studies to demonstrate its efficacy to that end.


Don't know about studies, but they do love launching enquiries.


Again, I'll hold my breath while I wait.


Please don't. :D

[Cuddles]

Has anybody been able to determine the actual purpose of this law?

Mr Brown added that carrier bags were one of the most visible and easily-reduced forms of waste

Translation - it's easy to make it look like they're doing something.

Cynicism aside, in all fairness, 13 billion bags every year really is quite a lot. If they really can reduce that by 70%, it can't be a bad thing. When it comes down to it, taking a few bags to the shop isn't going to kill you, and on the occasions where you forget or don't have enough, it's not exactly a huge amount of money. I have no idea whether this is really a significant proportion of plastic use or of household waste (I suspect no for both), but reducing plastic bag usage really doesn't hurt anyone and has at least some benefit, however small.

[brodski]

Has anybody been able to determine the actual purpose of this law? what law?


I presume there will also be studies to demonstrate its efficacy to that end. if there were to be a law there would be a regulatory impact assessment, which would in all likelihood be assessed a number of years down the line (two or three is normal) to see if the RIA had been correct in its predictions.



Again, I'll hold my breath while I wait.
you'll have to wait for a law first...

[richardm]

Has anybody been able to determine the actual purpose of this law?

I presume there will also be studies to demonstrate its efficacy to that end.


Again, I'll hold my breath while I wait.

The main argument that I've heard in the past is that a large amount of the trash blowing around town centres consists of plastic bags. By making people pay for them it's hoped that they will not treat them so disposably.

This now seems to be being extended in various perhaps more dubious environmental directions.

Ireland put a tax on bags a few years ago; at 15 cents per bag they've seen a 90% reduction in use of them. Their intention was to cut litter, and it does seem to have worked for them.

[Francesca R]

Has anybody been able to determine the actual purpose of this law?

I presume there will also be studies to demonstrate its efficacy to that end.


Again, I'll hold my breath while I wait.As others have said, there is no planned law (though there is the Gordon-Big-Boots threat of one).

Can I just clear something up pre-emptively. Would your position be that if profit-seeking agents decide voluntarily to produce plastic bags as part of their business model, then the production and consumption of these bags must be a good thing for everyone? And further that any non-profit-motivated desire to curtail production/consumption of plastic bags would make everyone worse off?

[WildCat]

The main argument that I've heard in the past is that a large amount of the trash blowing around town centres consists of plastic bags. By making people pay for them it's hoped that they will not treat them so disposably.
It makes more sense than what Chicago actually tried a few years ago. To reduce the amount of litter in the parks they decided to - I kid you not - eliminate garbage cans in the parks! Some genius working for the city noticed that there wasn't much trash in areas where there were no garbage cans, apparently it never dawned on him that the reason for that was because it simply blew away until it ended up in some dead air zone between buildings.

Maybe if they'd actually empty the cans as they fill up instead of allowing them to overflow there'd be less trash around, but this idea hasn't been thought of yet by the bureaucrats in the Parks Department.

[richardm]

if profit-seeking agents decide voluntarily to produce plastic bags as part of their business model, then the production and consumption of these bags must be a good thing for everyone?

Won't somebody think of the poor string-bag manufacturers? :cry1

[Soapy Sam]

When I were a lad (back in the Pleistocene), ladies had shopping bags.
What they did not have, were cars, so the shopped more often, carried less each trip and used the same bag every time.

[zooterkin]

It makes more sense than what Chicago actually tried a few years ago. To reduce the amount of litter in the parks they decided to - I kid you not - eliminate garbage cans in the parks! Some genius working for the city noticed that there wasn't much trash in areas where there were no garbage cans, apparently it never dawned on him that the reason for that was because it simply blew away until it ended up in some dead air zone between buildings.

Maybe if they'd actually empty the cans as they fill up instead of allowing them to overflow there'd be less trash around, but this idea hasn't been thought of yet by the bureaucrats in the Parks Department.

I think the same genius now works at my office. It was decided that we were not recycling enough rubbish. The recycling bins (for paper, cans, plastic cups, batteries, etc.) were in a central location on each floor. We had a waste bin under each desk. The answer was to remove the waste bins, on the theory that would mean we'd all happily take everything to the central location and sort it all. In practice, every desk accumulates small piles of rubbish during the day (apple cores, sweet wrappers, etc.), and people have to make a detour to the central bins. Most people then put everything in the bin for landfill (even people who had happily recycled before).

The better solution would have been to provide each desk or desk group with recycling bins (something similar is done in Japan in offices of the same company).

[Architect]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7270358.stm

Marks & Spencer seems to have taken the lead in levying a 5p charge on plastic shopping bags effective in May. The government seems to be hoping that public opinion will be sufficiently supportive of this type of measure so that compulsion is unnecessary. I think that has a reasonable probability. However Brown wants to help it on its way with the vague threat of an official tax.

The Irish republic has had a government-imposed tax (EUR 0.15) on plastic bags for about six years.

Any views, cares?

Surely it's ultra vires for him to make such a statement for Wales and Scotland?

[Ryokan]

Plastic bags in stores have cost around 5p in Norway for well over a decade. Goddamn copycat Brits.

[brodski]

Surely it's ultra vires for him to make such a statement for Wales and Scotland?

It would depend on how any proposed policy would be implemented.

[Architect]

It would depend on how any proposed policy would be implemented.

The Scotland Act effectively devolves most domestic issues including agriculture, education, law, and health. Unless the PM is going to claim that the bags are a tax issue, defence, or immigration then he's running the risk of overstepping the mark.

[brodski]

Unless the PM is going to claim that the bags are a tax issue, d

Bingo! What's the easiest way to force this change?

[Soapy Sam]

Make shopping bags fashionable.

[Architect]

Sam has, of course, hit on the most sensible way forward.